Teenage diver search called off

[Lonefox]

"The search for a 14-year-old diver missing off Devon has been called off. "

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Devon | Teenage diver search called off (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/7557154.stm)

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Devon | No sign of missing teenage diver (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/7557808.stm)

"When they were 10 metres from the surface, the teenager signalled to his father he was OK, but when the man reached the surface he could not see his son. "

Don't know if the press has got the facts wrong, BBC are usually a bit better than most, but there's no indication of a safety stop, if I were diving with my dive buddy, generally we stop at 5 metres together, and maintain eye contact all the way to the surface, the worse the vis, the closer we watch each other.

Hope he turns up ok, but it doesn't look promising.

[Tricia]

The good news is that the second story above says:

"Police said following the dive, the father was first to surface and the boy was seen to surface soon after.

"He was described by family as being seen slightly tilted backwards as though his jacket was inflated and was buoyant in no apparent signs of distress," a police spokesperson said."

So it sounds like he surfaced OK and then got pulled by a current. Let's cross our fingers he's just out there floating around and waiting to be picked up.

Trish

[Lonefox]

We can hope that is the case, but the conditions have been pretty horrendous for the last 24 hours, and gale force winds are forecast today.

[fairybasslet]

Oy. I hope they find him alive.

[String]

Weather horrific this week - im amazed anyone managed to even try diving. It sounds like surface separation which is good news in a way.

Big spring tides and bad weather. It doesn't say what exposure protection was worn either - if its a wetsuit time is running out. Dry suit there's more chance

Only obvious thing is why didnt they surface together ?
It would also appear the boat didn't have a VHF radio which if true is complete lunacy.

[Gombessa]

Man, a sad story, but hopefully one that will still have a happy ending.

I guess the real question is how far apart were they when they surfaced? It's not uncommon for one person to ascend the last few feet more quickly than his buddy, or to lose contact during a safety stop. In these cases though, you typically come up fairly close to each other. Why didn't they swim to the RIB together? Did the father tell the boy to stay there, that he'd start the boat and pick him up?

[String]

I guess the real question is how far apart were they when they surfaced? It's not uncommon for one person to ascend the last few feet more quickly than his buddy, or to lose contact during a safety stop. In these cases though, you typically come up fairly close to each other. Why didn't they swim to the RIB together? Did the father tell the boy to stay there, that he'd start the boat and pick him up?

It doesnt mention it but id assume the RIB was manned. Boats here are (i) never anchored and (ii) never left unmanned. If it was then its lunacy bordering on criminal.

If they surfaced away from it chances are due to tides and currents they couldnt swim back to the boat - spring tides this weekend.

Also no real excuse for losing sight of each other on the stops.

[Lonefox]

BBC NEWS | England | Devon | Search for teenage diver halted (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7559242.stm)

Video explanation does seem to imply that they were diving from a small rib with no vhf radio, doesn't say whether there was any surface support aboard the rib.

[String]

Official MCGA for what its worth. Nothing new in it:



Press Notice No: Duty Press Notice
Wednesday, August 13, 2008
Posted 01:17 GMT

SEARCH STOOD DOWN FOR MISSING DIVER

A search that had been ongoing since one o clock this afternoon in the Berry Head area for a missing 14 year old diver was stood down at nine o clock this evening (Tuesday).

The search, coordinated by Brixham Coastguard and involving Coastguard Rescue Teams, RNLI lifeboats, police divers and other pleasure vessels in the area, along with helicopters from the Coastguard, Royal Navy, RAF and Police, has now been terminated due to fading light.

The search began this afternoon when a father and son had been diving together North of Berry Head near Brixham, and the son failed to surface. A Mayday was issued and an extremely extensive search was undertaken but nothing was found.


Posted By: Rosie Tapping

Some confusion as to whether they mean a RIB or a simple inflatable/zodiac. Getting help from a passing charter would suggest the boat itself didnt have VHF or somehow wasn't able to get to them.

[Lonefox]

Diver, 14, feared dead off Devon coast - This Britain, UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/diver-14-feared-dead-off-devon-coast-894515.html)

"But the rest of the diving party – the boy's mother, aunt and uncle – were unable to start the boat. The boy and his father had to tread water while the group flagged down a passing vessel for help."

It does appear that there were family members with the Rib, but they were having difficulties starting the engine, there's no indication of whether there was any current.

[String]

Which makes it even more bizarre. Surface separation should never happen. You surface together, you stay together and if theres a current you hold onto each other. It really does look like they didn't have a VHF radio onboard from seeing the local news on TV here.

[sporket]

Any updates. Very scary to think about. So many blanks on what could have been done to prevent this tragedy.

[Lonefox]

At present it's difficult to tell what's taken place, can't tell if he's holed his BC and sunk without dropping weights, been struck by surface traffic, taken by current, or whether there's another factor that for whatever reason, currently remains undisclosed.

With regard to surface separation, it can happen suprisingly fast, I lost my buddy on a night dive due to surface separation in Egypt 2 years ago, in the time it took for me to be helped onto the rib in slightly choppy conditions, my buddy was taken. Fortunately we had strobes, and he had the sense to turn his on, which made locating him easy. I hate to think what could have happened had that not been the case. Shouting for him was futile as with the combined noise of the wind and the boat engines, I couldn't have heard him shouting back.
Needless to say this year we're both taking glowsticks, whistles, SMB's and strobes. No price is too high, after experiencing the heart sinking despair of a missing buddy. I can say first hand, when I was sitting on the boat, in the few minutes before his strobe came on, my thoughts were beginning to drift towards what I could say to his family, feelings of guilt that I allowed myself to be pulled onto the boat first, it was quite possisbly the worst I have ever felt, and I only had to endure it for 2 minutes.
Succinct to say, my buddy was perfectly calm, and relaxed, and was already considering swimming to the livaboard after seeing our rib begin to turn back, but then he could see us, and already knew what his action plan was.

[String]

News only reporting search called off. Looking highly likely like he sunk or would have been found by now.

Very little detail as to what exactly happened but that no doubt will only be released during the coroners inquest so some time next year at a guess.

Surface separation should never ever happen. You surface, you stay close, you hold on.
Nobody knows if they had DSMBs or not or if they had torches or exactly what surface cover was present. You really should NEVER leave your buddy alone on the surface though.

[ScubaSteve]

News only reporting search called off. Looking highly likely like he sunk or would have been found by now......


Terrible news. As unlikely as it is, I am sure we all still hope he is found alive. At this point, found at all would be better as I can only imagine how the family must feel not knowing. Right now maybe that equals hope, but eventually it would feel like an empty void with a door that cannot be closed. Just terrible.

[Lonefox]

Many things should never happen, but they do, and generally at times when they shouldn't. My own experience was due to a number of factors.
1) Sea conditions borderline for the night dive we were taken on. (Acknowledged by guide after, that sea conditions had worstened rapidly just after entry)
2) Zodiac returned to Livaboard, Buddy encountered equalisation issues at beginning of night drift.
3) Buddy and I surface on edge of reef with progressively larger swell, and drifting further from livaboard with currents, not particularly strong, but surf not helping.
4) Signal for assistance with torch, zodiac launches.
5) Am pulled onto zodiac, single egyptian in boat, torn between task of retreiving me from water and ensuring zodiac not washed up onto reef.
6) Buddy previously holding onto Rib while I boarded found it difficult to retain grip on pitching zodiac, and releases grip.
7) Buddy is not visible at this stage, wind and engine are all I can hear, I stand to look expecting buddy to be holding onto zodiac ropes, but no sign, realise that it's pitch black and sea surface making it difficult to see anything.
8) Zodiac driver turns to move away from reef, and return flapping diver (me, yelling for my mate) to liveaboard.
9) Engine starts, and my buddy remembers shoulder strobe and turns it on, we recover him.

This whole situation took place very quickly, I have no doubt that the guides knowing the currents were confident that there was no major problem.
My buddy was unflustered and quite calm, as he could see I was safe, could see where the boat was, and was quite happy that he could make it back to the liveaboard if necessary.

I on the other hand was flustered, couldn't see my buddy, had no understanding of the preparedness of the boat crew, or or their knowledge of the currents in the area, or expectations that my buddy would remember his strobe, had I been in my buddy's position I would probably have similarly been unphased.

It does happen, it didn't happen for long (couple of minutes) but enough to panic me (remaining calm when you feel that you will never see your best mate again does not come naturally).

We did learn from this, and will now not attempt a night dive without each carrying 2 x Glowsticks, a Strobe, SMB, Whistle and Torch. If nothing else we're well equipped to go to a Rave party afterwards.

[seco divemaster17]

I hope the boy is alive, and i hope they find him

[String]

I hope the boy is alive, and i hope they find him

Realistically there's no hope of that at all now. Far to long to survive in water of that temperature especially given the horrific weather conditions this week.

Also if he was on the surface he would have been found by the initial SAR. It was very close to shore and the prediction software they use is excellent.

[limbo]

It seems that no news is not good news in this case.

Very sad, my thoughts are with the family of the boy.

[String]

Slight update:- Looks like police divers are still searching and they've just been offered some sidescan/proton mag kit to help look for the body:

Proton Magnetometer and Side-scan Sonar - YD Scuba Diving Forums (http://www.yorkshire-divers.com/forums/surface-interval/76609-proton-magnetometer-side-scan-sonar.html)

[ScubaSteve]

Slight update:- Looks like police divers are still searching and they've just been offered some sidescan/proton mag kit to help look for the body:

Proton Magnetometer and Side-scan Sonar - YD Scuba Diving Forums (http://www.yorkshire-divers.com/forums/surface-interval/76609-proton-magnetometer-side-scan-sonar.html)


I hope this helps locate the boy for the family's sake however I still view this search with the magnatometer as looking for a needle in a haystack. Am I too pessimistic in this case?

[String]

I hope this helps locate the boy for the family's sake however I still view this search with the magnatometer as looking for a needle in a haystack. Am I too pessimistic in this case?

Maybe, maybe not. A lot of it depends on exactly where they're looking and how far if anywhere the person drifted before sinking. There were big spring tides so big currents and the weather has been gales pretty much all week - that could move something a fair distance on the bottom.

On the other hand if he sunk rapidly and was very heavy then may not have moved far.

So its probably worth trying but in reality you'd need to be very lucky to find anything especially that small a target.

[String]

Minor update - a body of a diver has washed ashore. More than likely its this person

[Lonefox]

Minor update - a body of a diver has washed ashore. More than likely its this person

Sad, but I guess at least the family now have some closure, it was unrealistic to expect anything else after this length of time. My regular dive buddy is in his teens, so this struck a chord with me. We have both booked rescue and EFR training as a result of this story, and I am now obsessive about maintaining regular eye contact and hand signals from the moment we get in the water, to the moment we get out.

[Lonefox]

here's the update to the bbc story.

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Devon | Diver's family told of body find (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/7592449.stm)

[Jim Ernst]

here's the update to the bbc story.

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Devon | Diver's family told of body find (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/7592449.stm)

Glen.

Thanks very much for your reports!

It seems ... There is no doubt that this find is the boy.

I am so sorry the results were not a better ending!:depressed:

[theunraveler]

i am juz wondering how did this occur? the boy has ascended to the surface, BC was inflated so how could he drowned?

[Lonefox]

i am juz wondering how did this occur? the boy has ascended to the surface, BC was inflated so how could he drowned?

I've been puzzling over the same thing, it does feel like some info is missing.
I've got some theories.

If we take the approach that the lad surfaced, I can only think, that BC dump Valve stuck open, BC depressurised, he was overweighted and was unable, as a result of panic and/or equipment shifting position, to drop his weights.

Did he get bored waiting for the boat to be started and decide to play on his own while he waited, subsequently encountering a problem that he was unable to deal with.

Did he get struck by one of the boats during the drama of starting the engine.

Initial reports stated that he was last seen at 10 metres depth, but later changed to state that he was seen on the surface. Was this initial reporting incorrect?

I guess we have to wait for the inquest, and hope that the equipment is still in a suitable condition to provide the answers.

[theunraveler]

I guess we have to wait for the inquest, and hope that the equipment is still in a suitable condition to provide the answers.
do they release the inquest for general public?

[ScubaSteve]

At the very least a formal identification will be needed for the family to truly begin the steps of acceptance. No matter how likely that it is their son's body....I am certain that they will be holding out hope until the very last second that their little boy is still out there and alive soomewhere. I hope they can get closure (good or bad) soon.

[Charlie99]

i am juz wondering how did this occur? the boy has ascended to the surface, BC was inflated so how could he drowned?Among the infinite number of possibilities is that

He and his father surfaced downcurrent from the boat;

the people left on the boat had trouble starting the engine,

the father decided to swim to the boat (or alternatively, ignores his son while trying to attract attention of other boats)

and by the time he started up the boat and/or got attention of other boats the son had drifted out of sight.

The son dies of exposure/hypothermia before being located.

---------------------

Pure speculation, but one scenario that fits with what has been reported so far.
It is amazingly easy to lose sight of a diver on the surface in rough water.

[Lonefox]

Given the comments in this news report, which state that it's believed he was "pulled under"
Family's tribute to diver son (From South Wales Argus) (http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/swanews/3606450.Family_s_tribute_to_diver_son/)
And that he was found only 500 yards from the location he's most likely to have been diving.
It seems that it was most likely he was overweighted, lost buoyancy for some reason, and didn't drop his weights.

[String]

do they release the inquest for general public?

Yes. Coroners court findings are public domain. Usually take about 12-24 months for them to be heard and concluded though.
The short distance from where he want missing to being found does hint at sinking/negative buoyancy. With large tidal range and very strong currents there anything not heavy on the bottom would have moved a lot further.

This does really emphasise 2 things though - dont get separated on ascent and its really unforgivable to separate on the surface.

[DandyDon]

This does really emphasise 2 things though - dont get separated on ascent and its really unforgivable to separate on the surface.
The obvious to be is Get Positive! Drop the weights if needed. How many ever practice that after OW? So many bodies are found with weights on. :(

[String]

Inquest has been unusually fast and the report is out:

BBC NEWS | England | Devon | Diver, 14, sank after air ran out (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7763208.stm)


A 14-year-old boy died on a diving trip when he ran out of air and sank, an inquest heard.
.
.
But he then lost buoyancy when the air ran out and he was dragged under.

A police diving expert said Louis' air tank would have given him only two minutes more than the 20-minute dive and an open verdict was recorded.
.
.
Police diving expert Pc Peter Gough said the boy only had a nine litre cylinder compared to his father's 15 litre tank and so would have had just 22 and a half minutes at the 20m (65ft) deep seabed.

He said it was not possible to work out exactly how long he had been there because his father was not carrying a dive computer.

He said once his air ran out he would have had no buoyancy because of the weight of his kit.

An open verdict was recorded into his death of Louis, a qualified open water diver.

Maybe useless reporting but lots there dont make sense. Ive never seen a 9 litre cylinder and even if that is true the time quoted is an SAC of 31litres/minutes which is enormous, well over twice you'd expect from someone on a routine non stressful dive.

Also, if positive on the surface then air or not wouldnt matter - you dont just sink.

No mention of if the boat had VHF or other safety devices (but that isnt the mandate of the inquest to investigate) or if the boat was moored. If it was a commercial operation it would be relevant but it wasnt in this case.

FWIW an "open" verdict basically translates to "we dont know". Not really a finishing conclusion.

[Lonefox]

No dive computers, surfacing on an empty tank, overweighted, diving deeper than recommended for his qualification.
It seems like this was a recipe for disaster from the outset. Also, why did he not drop his weights ?
Such a waste of a life, and imo totally avoidable.

[Rick Murchison]

... Ive never seen a 9 litre cylinder ...Standard AL 65. Used one last night.
Rick

[Rick Murchison]

... why did he not drop his weights ?... Most fatalities don't. If they did, they wouldn't be fatalities, most likely.
Rick

[MarkUK]

Standard AL 65. Used one last night.
Rick

Might be a standard size out Stateside, but over here, you tend to get seven-litre, 10-litre, 12-litre and 15-litre, so unless they got hold of a US cylinder from somewhere (highly unlikely), I'd be tempted to agree with String on a bit of dodgy reporting.

Does seem wholly avoidable. Witnesses said he was on the surface and leaning back in his BCD 'as he'd done at the end of other dives'. If he was leaning back in an inflated BCD on the surface, how'd he sink? Unless he was trying to oral-inflate and pressed the deflate button, air escaped the jacket and he sank. Oral inflate and dumping weights are two easy ways of ensuring you stay on the surface, but too many times panic sets in and these two simple exercises are not done, often with tragic outcomes.

Mark

[seco divemaster17]

the news said that the boy was ok diving, if that is so then why didnt the boy lose his weights and help with keeping him up were ever on ecould see him ?plus it sound like he may be under the water too

[sabbath999]

The obvious to be is Get Positive! Drop the weights if needed. How many ever practice that after OW? So many bodies are found with weights on. :(

That's one thing my OW instructor kept drilling into us, repeating it over and over... most people who drown while diving don't drop their weights... never, EVER hesitate to drop your weights when on the surface if you are needing to stay buoyant and are having ANY difficulty (his teaching, not mine).

We practiced weight removal on 3 different dives in the pool (both our weights and our buddies) and on a 3 dives in OW (we practiced all of our basic skills on those three dives, and practiced our surface skill sets during the required surface intervals).

Every dive we have done (5 so far in OW and 8 pool sessions) we go through a full basic skill set including dumping weights, mask clearing, mask removal, mask recovery, don/doff at surface and at depth, OOA ascents from depth by both people and air sharing. We have also implemented a "surprise" drill for the pool, where we reach out and grab the primary regulator out of our buddies mouth by surprise and use it (to simulate a surprise emergency OOA situation)... man that drill is a good one, the first few times we both really botched our reactions but now we go right to our backup air source as a matter of muscle memory. So far, all of our dives have been strictly training dives working on buoyancy and water skills, but we intend to continue working on this stuff every time we go out (except when on vacation... we will have enough to do learning about how to dive from a boat, learning about surge, etc.)

I am a NOOB so I only know what I have been told and the drills I have practiced, but I am hoping that if I get into a similar situation my training will kick in... I guess we will have to wait and see.

[Rick Murchison]

... why didnt the boy lose his weights ...


Most fatalities don't. If they did, they wouldn't be fatalities, most likely.
Rick

We don't have any statistics on how many dropped weights and didn't drown. Nor do we know how many had trouble and did not drop weights and did not drown. All we know is that over 80% who do drown never drop their weights.
Why?
Maybe they weren't trained to.
Maybe they were trained but didn't follow their training because they forgot about it in the moment.
One thing's for sure... it wasn't drilled into them to the extent that dropping weights is an automatic response to extremis on the surface - and a testament to a need to make it so in every student.
Rick

[imasinker]

First of all My condolences to the family, Being divers they may be reading this thread. My heart goes out to you all.

I am a new diver myself and since May of this year I have read three separate stories of divers being lost at sea. My post is just a opinion I am not taking a stab at the dive training or individuals or instructors of any certifying agencies. I guess i am just hoping after all this sadness we can find better ways to help divers in distress.

A young man diving not likely to have much experience, could have panicked, not dropped weights or many things could have happened. One thing that strikes me hard is that losing a visual on a surfaced diver shouldn't have to happen. Something so simple as a safety sausage could have helped the boat and other boats to see him. Would he have remembered to use one had he had it, we don't know. We don’t know if he was conscious so dumping weights or inflating a safety sausage wouldn’t have been done anyways. We just don’t know. Personally I think when your diving the oceans fresh water lakes, a surface marker should be standard gear and taught how to be used, drilled into everyone’s head just as dropping weights or never holding your breath. The harsh reality of it is that it is tragic stories like these that bring a close nit community like the dive community together to discuss future changes and upgrades to the way we train and dive. Maybe this is something that needs to be looked at. Possibility of diver dyes, strobes, beacons. If your a new diver perhaps these things should be thought about before diving in the ocean during rough swells. There has to be some way to get to these divers a hell of alot faster when they become separated. It just sounds like so many thing went wrong and alot of people just didn't have the experience to deal with a unfortunate situation.

[String]

Im still sticking with my original observations - physical separation on the surface is unforgivable. A moored boat is unforgivable. Not having a VHF radio is unforgivable.

Very many things "not per the book" there and sadly when you start cutting corners these things can happen.

[String]

The official 2008 incident report is out now but little detail there:


Two divers ascended at the end of a dive. At 10m they exchanged OK signals but then became separated. There were problems starting the engine of their boat. One of the pair was recovered into another boat and the other was seen at the surface with his BCD inflated. Contact was then lost with this diver. The Coastguard was alerted and an extensive search was conducted involving five lifeboats, four helicopters and other craft. Twenty days later the body of the missing diver was seen by a member of the public floating at the surface; it was recovered.

[I Dive]

If any family or friends of this victim are reading this thread, I would suggest you don't search the Internet for stories about this tragedy. I'm not going to say where I found it or what it said, but I just came across a so-called "news story" that listed the most ridicilous excuse of an "Expert opinion" that I have ever seen. I know people who have never laid eyes on a set of SCUBA gear that could have come up with a more substantive conclusion than what I just read. I think it is horrible that family members of victims of tragedy have to hear or read some of the garbage stories and theories that come out in the media. My thoughts and prayers are with the family.

[rleslie]

That's one thing my OW instructor kept drilling into us, repeating it over and over... most people who drown while diving don't drop their weights... never, EVER hesitate to drop your weights when on the surface if you are needing to stay buoyant and are having ANY difficulty (his teaching, not mine).

We practiced weight removal on 3 different dives in the pool (both our weights and our buddies) and on a 3 dives in OW (we practiced all of our basic skills on those three dives, and practiced our surface skill sets during the required surface intervals).

We covered weight removal ONE time during our OW training. The instructor was more concerned with impressing us with his knowledge and getting us certified than he was with training us properly. Looking back, I don't think that I had any business being certified and I know that wife wasn't.

After read this thread and other accident accounts, I feel receiving a OW cert. in no way truly prepares you for anything other than a perfect dive scenario and is WAY too easy to receive. IMHO the pool time should be doubled/tripled and the students should practice, practice, practice different accident scenarios. Honestly, how many of you feel that new divers are in any way prepared for an emergency situation?

Several posters in this thread (and others) say that they don't understand why the victim didn't take certain actions. I've seen divers with over 100 dives panic. Take someone with 15 dives who received marginal training and you have a receipt for disaster when something goes wrong.

Just my 2 cents

[imasinker]

We covered weight removal ONE time during our OW training. The instructor was more concerned with impressing us with his knowledge and getting us certified than he was with training us properly. Looking back, I don't think that I had any business being certified and I know that wife wasn't.

After read this thread and other accident accounts, I feel receiving a OW cert. in no way truly prepares you for anything other than a perfect dive scenario and is WAY too easy to receive. IMHO the pool time should be doubled/tripled and the students should practice, practice, practice different accident scenarios. Honestly, how many of you feel that new divers are in any way prepared for an emergency situation?

Several posters in this thread (and others) say that they don't understand why the victim didn't take certain actions. I've seen divers with over 100 dives panic. Take someone with 15 dives who received marginal training and you have a receipt for disaster when something goes wrong.

Just my 2 cents

Althought I agree with a few things you say as in practice and more practice, but how many new drivers do you know that can handle a spin out or blown tire. Your point is clear some people train better than others but the outcome is new divers are NEW. The only way we could step up the open water training and try to avoid these mishaps/ accidents IMHO would be to put all three certifications together, Basic, advanced and rescue. Big problem I see with that is money and time. I think more people would tend to sway away from diving if they had to face such a rigorous training program with a cost much higher. Maybe this a good thing in some views but on the view of agencies not. In any sport day to day life there are situations where people not prepared suffer. It is sad, but one thing remains true. No matter how hard you try, train pound into peoples head, in some situations people just panic, forget and thats it.

[iamsharky]

some people that dive in strong currents with back problems have attached their weights to their steel back plates to reduce the pull caused by wearing weight belts on the waist. in that case it would be impossible to drop weights. i wonder about his gear set up......

[String]

I use a similar setup. Its fantastic and far from rare.
Although this was NOT the case in this incident. Standard BC was used.

[iamsharky]

Most of my diving is around 40 feet. I use steel weights through weight belt webbing zip tied and attached to my back plate. It is awesome weight distribution and saves my back. Do not try this unless you know what you are doing. This time of year I have redundancy with my dry suit and wings. Warmer times I do not have redundancy and could incorporate an extra wing I guess...otherwise I would have to ditch my gear to remain buoyant if I had a bladder failure. At depth, that could be a real issue but I understand from the posts that gear set up was not the issue.

[rleslie]

Big problem I see with that is money and time. I think more people would tend to sway away from diving if they had to face such a rigorous training program with a cost much higher. Maybe this a good thing in some views but on the view of agencies not.


My point is that the pendulum has swung too far the other way.....too quick and too cheap.

[Lonefox]

Most of my diving is around 40 feet. I use steel weights through weight belt webbing zip tied and attached to my back plate. It is awesome weight distribution and saves my back. Do not try this unless you know what you are doing.

I have a Pouch and Beanbag style weight belt, I have that weighted for freediving, it gives me the opportunity to ditch individual weights.
My BCD has trim weights to counter my Pony bottle, and I use the Integrated weight system to compensate for the buoyancy of the BCD. Pony Bottle is on a quick release, and has a rubber band type handle around it.
It does mean that weighting myself is a little more of a chore each time I dive a location with different salt content.
But this means that in worst case scenario, I am able to ditch the BCD, and surface with just the pony.
Even if ditching isn't necessary, I have freedom to remove my BCD underwater without risking a runaway ascent.

The issue with Block and Webbing style belts is that you can't easily and safely remove single weights underwater. The reason I may need to do this, is that an escape with just a pony bottle from depth may mean I have to work harder to surface.

Relying solely on Integrated weight systems in a BCD can mean that if you get snagged or caught on something, if you remove your BCD to free yourself, your weights go with it, suddenly your wetsuit gives you a lot of positive buoyancy, meaning that you may be going to the surface feet first, waving goodbye to your BCD and life support.

[iamsharky]

Does the bean bag style weight system put much strain on your lower back? I agree you would have to be careful with a drysuit and ascending feet first w/o bc. I have not put much thought into that scenario, but that could defintitely be an issue.

[Lonefox]

Does the bean bag style weight system put much strain on your lower back?

It is a little better than a lead block and webbing belt, the main benefit is no hard corners digging in to hips. They are also less unpleasant to drop on your feet or trip over, they still hurt, but they are less likely to remove toes. I'm not sure if they'd make that much difference to your back, but I can only see them as being an improvement. The only problem is, when you go on holiday, you tend to have to fill the pockets with the solid weights, as the boats don't generally carry the beanbags.

I initially chose to spread my weights between two systems so I could go out with a freediving friend without having to keep re-weighting for scuba, I found myself frequently in this unconventional buddy pair (Freediver / Scuba Diver) and generally find this grouping gives me the benefit that someone knows I am there, and the freedom to take photographs at my leisure, (photographers don't make good buddies).

I'm not advocating anyone else do this, as there are safety issues that need to be managed, however I have fully redundant gear, and chose my weight distribution to complement that style of diving, My theory being that I need to be able to recover myself from any situation that occurs. So I think about what could happen. Most of the issues I could foresee related to air, weights and entanglement. When people think about emergencies, frequently we tend to think about how we would behave in one, but I'd recommend anyone to sit and think carefully through how your kit will behave, because it's very easy to think what you would do, but generally some of your decisions are likely to be made for you by the equipment you wear.

The best way I could see to counter most hazardous situations, was to gear myself so that I can transform quickly, from a Scuba Diver, to a freediver with a pony bottle.

[iamsharky]

thank you for the advice and Merry Christmas!