Spearing or stringing of slipper (shovelnose) lobster

This has been debated on this forum and others quite a few times. For some reason Florda keeps publishing a prohibition on spearing "lobster" without specifying which species of lobster. They mean spiny and spiny only, as in the ones you have to have a stamp to take.
Here is an official email from the FWC. All piercing of an animal is taken to mean spearing under Florida legal codes. I should have posted back in March when first had this in writing but I was hoping someone else would post their official response.

Slipper or shovelnose lobster [Incident: 080315-000019]
Subject
Slipper or shovelnose lobster

Discussion Thread
Response (MF-GC) 03/24/2008 05:17 PM
Mr. Green,

Thank you for your e-mail to the Division of Marine Fisheries Management.

Florida has no prohibition against the spearing or "stringing" of slipper lobster. For species that are unregulated, or that do not have an established bag limit, more that 100 pounds or 2 fish per person per day (whichever is greater), is considered commercial quantities and will require a saltwater products license.

I hope that this information is of use to you. Please feel free to contact us should you require further information.
Customer (Patrick Green) 03/15/2008 11:35 AM
A recent online thread I have participatd in has devolved into an argument over the regulations of slipper and shovelnose lobster. My understanding was that the only recreational rule on shovelnose/slipper lobster was the prohibition from taking eggbearing females (68b 24-008). The other position was that slippers ans shovelnose could not be pierced in anyway. As in it would be illegal to catch them and then put them on a stringer while diving. He was backing up his position by looking at the summarized rules that show slipper and spiny in the heading and makes it look as if all the floowing rules applied to both.

So please what is the official ruling here? Here is th link to the thread if you care to read two fools arguing on the internet. Thanks in advance.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/underwater-hunting/223545-panama-city-3-01-08-late-trip-report.html


The person on the other side seems to have become indignant that I contradicted him early on is seemed to need to be "right" at any expense. The allegations of impropriety on my part as well as what seems to be a genuine lack of understanding of the regulatory structure and jurisdictions on his part drew me in and hooked me way more than I should have let them. There is no way to win in a "debate" like that and certainly nothing to be gained. I would really like to know who he talked to with the gulf council that was supposed to be Bill Daughdrill. Anyway I was happy to see the official word from the Gulf Council and FWC is you can take them and string them as long as they don't have eggs, I was doubting my interpretation of the law for awhile there.

Well I am off to prep the boat for tomorrows run to hit the 3 to 5s for big grouper and spinys before they close, I haven't been able to take a fun trip out there in months so it should be epic as long as we hold up things on our end. Pics for the website and the forums will hopefully be forthcoming.
- Show quoted text -


On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 1:07 PM, name removed < Removedr@hotmail.com> wrote:

Pat,

I had the occasion to read your debate about slippers. Your counterpart in the debate should have his answer from the FWC. I'm curious to see if he posts it or tries to refute it...from the impression I get it will be the later.

Shoot Straight!

Windows Live Hotmail is giving away Zunes. Enter for your chance to win.




--
-Capt Patrick Green
850-624-2084
Scuba diving and Spearfishing offshore of Panama City and Panama City Beach.

The Gulf Council answered similarly when asked the same question... Here is my response from them:

from Richard Leard <rick.leard@gulfcouncil.org>
to Capt Pat Green <patrickmgreen@gmail.com>
date Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:02 PM
subject RE: Slipper lobster
mailed-by gulfcouncil.org

hide details Mar 19


Reply


Pat,
As I mentioned, slipper lobster are listed in the Spiny Lobster FMP for data collection only. They are not in the management unit, and there are no federal regulations regarding their harvest. Consequently, they are not governed by the allowable gear under 50 CFR 600.725 for the Spiny Lobster FMP (only spiny lobster), and regulations of the state of Florida would apply to Floridians fishing in federal waters off Florida. The only state regulations that I found were some closed areas and the prohibition on taking egg bearing females. Additionally, I can't believe that the alleged quote below came from Bill. Particularly, the statement 'Federal regulations will apply in all state waters where species listed in the FMPs are "in the management unit"' is not true, and I think that Bill would know that. In fact as noted above, the near opposite is true. When there are no federal regulations in the EEZ, the states may impose there regulations on fishermen fishing in the EEZ, e.g., grunts, porgies, permit, pompano, etc. I hope this clears up the confusion. If you have other questions, please feel free to call on me.
Rick

from Richard Leard <rick.leard@gulfcouncil.org>
to Capt Pat Green <patrickmgreen@gmail.com>
date Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:13 AM
subject RE: Slipper lobster
mailed-by gulfcouncil.org
Images from this sender are always displayed. Don't display from now on.

hide details Mar 21


Reply


Capt. Green,
After doing some additional research, I stand corrected. The original FMP did not include slipper lobster in the management unit; however, Amendment 1, implemented July 26, 1982 (47 FR 29203), added Scyllarides nodifer to the management unit. The purpose of this action was to prohibit harvest of egg bearing females and stripping of eggs. There are no other regulations on S. nodifer other than the prohibition of using poisons. Also the 622 regulations below only mention spiny lobster in the Caribbean for regulations. You may also want to go on the internet and view 50 CFR Part 640 which confirms my statements above. Since these regulations only prohibit spearing of spiny lobster while the other regulations prohibit harvest, stripping, and possession of egg bearing or stripped spiny and slipper lobster, as well as poisoning of spiny and slipper lobster, the prohibition on spearing is clearly aimed at spiny lobster ONLY. Additionally, these regulations are specific as opposed to the general gear authorizations in 50 CFR Part 600.725 and would take precedence over them. 50 CFR Part 600.725 specifically states: "The list of fisheries and authorized gear does not, in any way, alter or supersede any definitions or regulations contained elsewhere in this chapter." Again, there are no regulations that would prohibit spearing slipper lobsters in the EEZ.
Rick

Richard L. Leard, Ph.D.
Deputy Executive Director
Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council
2203 N. Lois Avenue, Suite 1100
Tampa, FL 33607
813-348-1630, ext. 228

If that is unclear to anyone I recommend you call the FWC and the Gulf Council or South Atlantic Council and ask for yourself what the laws are. Please do post your results here or in a similar thread and copy the correspondence so that others can see and read the official rulings. FYI every inquiry that gone this far that I have read in other forums has always had this same response from the officials.

Thanks for the info, Pat

Hello again ,

PatMyGreen:

I should have posted back in March when first had this in writing but I was hoping someone else would post their official response.

Click to expand...

There is nothing official about any of the BS you just posted.

Here are current official DEIS for EHF for the Gulf of Mexico FMPs (1993) as adopted and published by the NMFS and NOAA:
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/habitat/habitatprotection/pdf/efh/eis/Section 8 Tables703.PDF

Here are current official Species Listed in the Fishery Management Plans as adopted and published by the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council (1993):
http://www.gulfcouncil.org/beta/gmfmcweb/downloads/species managed.pdf

"Spiny Lobster

Species In the Management Unit
Spiny lobster Panulirus argus
Slipper lobster Scyllarides nodifer

Species In the Management Unit for Data Collection Only
Smooth Tail lobster Panulirus laevicauda
Spanish Slipper lobster Scyllarides aequinoctialis"

-NMFS, NOAA, and Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council


Slipper lobster (Scyllarides nodifer) are listed under Spiny Lobster FMPs as "Species In the Management Unit". The use of spears are prohibited in the CFR under the current Spiny Lobster FMPs where Slipper Lobster (Scyllarides nodifer) are currently defined "in the management unit", therefore, it is unlawful to spear slipper lobster (Scyllarides nodifer).
Furthermore, any lobster that has been pierced is justifiable Prima Facie evidence of spearing them if a speargun is also in possession.

If you feel the FMP's are either incorrect or outdated please provide the corrections and or updates with official published documentation as I have. You have had every opportunity to do so.

PatMyGreen:

I would have thought his actual word and the word of the guy he qualifies as the gulf council "expert" would trump an old page buried in the NMFS Office of Habitat Conservation, not exactly codified law.

Click to expand...

His authority does not trump the DEIS for EHF for the Gulf of Mexico FMPs which has been approved by the Secretary and adopted by the National Marine Fisheries Service, NOAA, and the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council. A change in classification within the FMP is needed to exempt Slipper Lobster (Scyllarides nodifer) from the CFR. The law is codified in the CFR.

Here is where you have been confused...

:confused2:
Perhaps your correspondence to the FWC and Gulf Council were confused because Spanish Slipper lobster (Scyllarides aequinoctialis) are listed under the Spiny Lobster FMPs as "Species In the Management Unit for Data Collection Only."
:confused2::confused2:

I hope this ends your confusion on the matter.

Regards and best of luck to your team in the Grand Lagoon National,
Chris

PatMyGreen:

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 1:07 PM, name removed < Removedr@hotmail.com> wrote:

Pat,

I had the occasion to read your debate about slippers. Your counterpart in the debate should have his answer from the FWC. I'm curious to see if he posts it or tries to refute it...from the impression I get it will be the later.

Shoot Straight!

Windows Live Hotmail is giving away Zunes. Enter for your chance to win.

Click to expand...

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

You must be hearing voices in your head from another sock-puppet of yours again, the hotmail extension is a dead giveaway. Perhaps he could have contributed directly to the dialog on the forum, or maybe that was your banned puppet?


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Regards and best of luck to your team in the Grand Lagoon National,
Chris

I'm not really sure why you'd need to spear a shovelnose as they are fairly suicidal and easy to grab but I will say spearing them makes little sense to me. It is illegal to posess egg bearing slipper a.k.a. shovelnose lobster and if you spear one and find out too late it has eggs you just killed it for no good reason.

I completely agree, I only say spearing because the state of Florida defines the act of piercing as such. So legally to pierce a shovelnose with a stringer is to spear it. Someone keeps taking that out of context and trying to say I spear spiny lobsters or that spearing spiny lobsters is what I am talking about. It was never the question asked or anything I talked about and in several other thread I have stated that their is no reason to spear them (shovelnose) to catch them, only that they can be captured and strung on a stringer.

i string mine up if not bearing eggs...they aren't regulated, no limits on number or size...

I don't string mine. I much rather keep them alive and fresher.