Deco Proc Course Gear Requirments

[cold_diver]

Hello,

Can someone at TDI please give me the definitive answer on whether or not the deco proc course requires doubles or not?

Yes, or no; Can the deco proc course be taught with a single tank and single deco/stage cylinder if the stage/deco cylinder is breathable at deepest depth?

Thanks,

brrrrr........

[Dive-aholic]

I'm not at TDI, but I do have the TDI standards manual and doubles are not required. However, redundancy is and I believe each instructor can add their own requirements.

[wedivebc]

Minor hijack alert, Doppler, TDI, anyone, why doesn't TDI post their standards for all perspective students to help prepare themselves? It used to be on the TDI Canada web page before they closed shop.

[captndale]

Minor hijack alert, Doppler, TDI, anyone, why doesn't TDI post their standards for all perspective students to help prepare themselves? It used to be on the TDI Canada web page before they closed shop.

TDI does not post their standards for prespective students because their standards are for their instructors. Their standards are the minimum standards that their instructors must adhere to. Each instructor sets their own standards for their students. If you want to know what is required for a particular course you should ask your instructor.

[Steve, SDI/TDI HQ]

Hello,

Can someone at TDI please give me the definitive answer on whether or not the deco proc course requires doubles or not?

Yes, or no; Can the deco proc course be taught with a single tank and single deco/stage cylinder if the stage/deco cylinder is breathable at deepest depth?

Thanks,

brrrrr........

Course may be taught with a single and an H or Y valve. Final gear configuration will depend on local conditions, depths at which course is to be conducted, and duration of dives and all members of dive team staying within acceptable gas management rules.

The original poster dives on the east coast... well, for a point of reference, the majority of our instructors in North America teaching this course on open-circuit would have candidates on manifolded doubles. I've been teaching it for many years and can only recall two students who did it on high-volume singles and an H valve.

As to the question raised by OP about redundancy being supplied by deco gas that can be breathed at maximum depth... Not the best plan at all for two reasons.

Optimal decompression. Decompression Procedures is normally taught in conjunction with Advanced Nitrox which allows for high-oxygen content decompression gas to be used. This practice is commonplace because we believe it optimizes off-gassing.Having a deco gas and bottom gas delivering the same, or very similar partial pressures of inert gas on ascent is out of sync with that practice. In some cases, deco is taught as a stand-alone and in this case, the maximum allowable nitrox mix will reflect that allowed under the auspices of the student's basic nitrox training. Usually then, air will be used as a back mix and something like EAN39 as a decompression.

Concerning CNS toxicity. Not having a redundant BOTTOM GAS (that's to say a mix with an MOD equal to or exceeding maximum target depth for the dive) breaks standards and good sense. Bailing out to a hot mix is neither tolerated by standards nor is it an acceptable practice.

Having said all that, in practice, the course COULD be conducted no deeper than the MOD of EAN39 and that COULD be used in the event of a primary gas failure (simulated or real), but it would make OOA buddy drills complex and untenable.

[wedivebc]

I am aware of that. I want to know what the reasoning is behind it.

TDI does not post their standards for prespective students because their standards are for their instructors. Their standards are the minimum standards that their instructors must adhere to. Each instructor sets their own standards for their students. If you want to know what is required for a particular course you should ask your instructor.

[captndale]

I am aware of that. I want to know what the reasoning is behind it.

I do not presume to know the reasoning behind it but I am happy that I do not have to engage in defending every requirement I set for my students. Publishing the minimum standards encourages some students to think that they deserve to be certified if they accompish the bare minimum that the agency sets forth. That may be the case for some other agencies but I, for one, am quite happy that it is not the way that TDI works.

[Steve, SDI/TDI HQ]

I am aware of that. I want to know what the reasoning is behind it.


At least part of the reasoning is that posting standards seems to confuse the issues. In the past when TDI first began operations, we posted them freely and it caused no end of grief for everyone involved. The issues were many-fold: first off standards for a single course as a standalone are intended for professional level members and usually have some sort of overriding standard of precursory standard that they are associated with. As a stand-alone some standards therefore seem incomplete and some seem overly restrictive. Certainly we found that students reading standards (which are worded in very specific way and almost always only set minimum requirements) caused issues because an instructor would include a skill he or she deemed necessary in their environment for a pass. But if it was not mentioned in the course standards, students who failed to perform at the level their instructor deemed a pass, complained.
We are updating our diver information website to give candidates for courses a more complete understanding of what will be expected of them to graduate a class and what a “typical” course may consist of.

[Scuba Cowboy]

I'd like to hear back from the OP why he would want to do decompression diving in anything other than the accepted norm for that type of diving. I'm one of the TDI Instructors who requires doubles for this course. It is a technical diving course, and I teach it in technical diving equipment. My feeling is if you are taking a Decompression Procedures course, you want to do decompression diving. And it is my job to see that you learn it in the right way, using a gear configuration that is safe. IMO, a single tank on a deco dive does not give redundancy for all scenarios and is a poor choice. Why would we want to teach a student to conduct dives in anything but the safest and smartest configuration? It is also my opinion that if you for some reason don't want to use the best equipment available for decompression diving, then maybe this type of diving is not in your best interests.
I do not believe there is any room whatsoever for shortcuts in technical diving. Bad things happen to those who take them.

[wedivebc]

I'd like to hear back from the OP why he would want to do decompression diving in anything other than the accepted norm for that type of diving. I'm one of the TDI Instructors who requires doubles for this course. It is a technical diving course, and I teach it in technical diving equipment. My feeling is if you are taking a Decompression Procedures course, you want to do decompression diving. And it is my job to see that you learn it in the right way, using a gear configuration that is safe. IMO, a single tank on a deco dive does not give redundancy for all scenarios and is a poor choice. Why would we want to teach a student to conduct dives in anything but the safest and smartest configuration? It is also my opinion that if you for some reason don't want to use the best equipment available for decompression diving, then maybe this type of diving is not in your best interests.
I do not believe there is any room whatsoever for shortcuts in technical diving. Bad things happen to those who take them.

Since the OP is not a tech diver how does he know the single tank is not the optimum choice? That was probably why the question was posed here. It should be the responsibility of the instructor to inform him of that. There are applications when a single tank might be the best choice.

[Scuba Cowboy]

Since the OP is not a tech diver how does he know the single tank is not the optimum choice? That was probably why the question was posed here. It should be the responsibility of the instructor to inform him of that. There are applications when a single tank might be the best choice.

Please enlighten me as to which application, on a decompression dive, a single tank would be a better choice than doubles. I cannot think of one. And I believe this OP is like others I've talked to, he knows the vast majority are doing deco in doubles, but is for some reason looking for permission to do it in a single. Whether its a money issue, a physical ability issue, I don't know, but its been my experience that people who ask this question are looking for a way to try something they are not ready for. This person has probably already talked to an instructor and been told they need doubles. Someone then told them standards allow singles and thats why I think the question was asked. My post was intended to help inform him why some instructors require doubles for this class.

[wedivebc]

Please enlighten me as to which application, on a decompression dive, a single tank would be a better choice than doubles. I cannot think of one. And I believe this OP is like others I've talked to, he knows the vast majority are doing deco in doubles, but is for some reason looking for permission to do it in a single. Whether its a money issue, a physical ability issue, I don't know, but its been my experience that people who ask this question are looking for a way to try something they are not ready for. This person has probably already talked to an instructor and been told they need doubles. Someone then told them standards allow singles and thats why I think the question was asked. My post was intended to help inform him why some instructors require doubles for this class.
Well you are sure making alot of assumptions of the OPs intentions and actions since I don't know the person myself I won't presume to know why he wanted to know this information.
Single tank decompression diving is not appropriate for the environment I dive in but there must be some application for it otherwise why would TDI have in in their standards?

[JeffG]

Well you are sure making alot of assumptions of the OPs intentions and actions since I don't know the person myself I won't presume to know why he wanted to know this information.
Single tank decompression diving is not appropriate for the environment I dive in but there must be some application for it otherwise why would TDI have in in their standards?

I've heard some tech diver discuss using a Single tank back gas in conjunction with stages to do deco diving in tropical locations where doubles cannot be rented.

[Blue Quaker]

I've taught the Adv. Nitrox/Deco combo program to a couple of students that wore HP large capacity steel singles with H valve and a 40 cuft for deco gas. They were small (5' 6"-110lb women) who had a really low SAC rate, and didn't want the "aggro" of hauliing doubles around, but wanted the knowlegde and skills to dive beyond the no-stop limits at recreational depths...not everyone takes Adv. Nitrox/Deco as a stepping stone to other more technical courses.
Cheers,
Norman H.

[Steve, SDI/TDI HQ]

Just a quick note here. Since we have members teaching our programs around the world, in every conceivable type of environment, I'm unlikely to come close to hitting all the applications in which a single cylinder with H or Y valve would be an acceptable choice over a set of doubles... but I can think of several.

Some years ago, when I was part of our training advisory panel, we polled members asking at what stage in diver development they began to insist on the use of doubles. Many very experienced instructors argued convincingly that a single cylinder with redundant first stages gave an acceptable level of security for students enrolled in a TDI Decompression Procedures course and so we included this gear package as an option in the standards for this course.

In keeping with our general standards and code of conduct, ALL Technical Diving International instructors are free to "add" to course outlines to make them more suited to local conditions and mores. As posted early, most instructors in "mainland" USA and Canada do expect students to dive manifolded doubles. However, completing a course wearing a large volume single as per standards, does not mean the course is lacking anything or that it turns out a sub-par diver. Wearing a single high volume cylinder with an H or Y valve rather than doubles is the choice of many very experienced divers. For example, I've dove on a number of occasions with Bret Gilliam (the founder and one-time owner of TDI) off the coast of Florida and in the tropics on open-circuit and he habitually uses a single... I used one as well. I don't think Bret (or I) fall into the inexperienced diver category, and neither of us is given to taking shortcuts.)

I am not sure what the intentions are of the original poster. The only safe assumption is that they are curious about gear configuration for a TDI course. I am pleased to see so many people posting helpful information on that assumption.

Weight of gear was mentioned as perhaps being an issue and that brings to mind something that has not been mentioned. I have taught this class on several occasions with students (and instructor) wearing manifolded six litre (45 cubic foot) cylinders. This is a very light option.

[Scuba Cowboy]

"Just a quick note here. Since we have members teaching our programs around the world, in every conceivable type of environment, I'm unlikely to come close to hitting all the applications in which a single cylinder with H or Y valve would be an acceptable choice over a set of doubles... but I can think of several."

I'm sure a big single is an acceptable choice, I've done deco in one myself, but not a better choice over doubles. There is always that slim possiblity of a valve o-ring or burst disk failure that would cause a huge problem. I agree totally on a small set of doubles, I used to dive double 72's which are probably lighter than some singles. In the tech world, we preach redundancy and a single tank does not provide it.
My bad for assuming what the OP is thinking, just going off what I have experienced when this question is asked. I'm officially off the soap box now:)

[Dive-aholic]

Steve, being that TDI has been so flexible, why is shooting a bag required in the technical courses? All of my training was done in caves, yet we had to take lift bags with us and shoot them in the basin to meet the standards of the course. Is it possible that this standard could be revised to allow for cave divers not to have to complete it?

[Doppler]

Steve, being that TDI has been so flexible, why is shooting a bag required in the technical courses? All of my training was done in caves, yet we had to take lift bags with us and shoot them in the basin to meet the standards of the course. Is it possible that this standard could be revised to allow for cave divers not to have to complete it?

Hi Rob: Thorny issue ;)

When our standards and skillsets were first drawn up, TDI did not have a cave program and many of our ITs and Instructors... those with cert numbers in the low double digits... worked in areas where blowing a bag was either required (such as live boating wrecks in Florida's Gulf Stream) or good solid insurance (such as off the NorthEastern Seaboard). The skill stuck. Personally, I'm glad it did because one day you may be diving off Pompano or the Keys and that skill will prove useful.

Larry Green (who heads up our Cave Diving Training Panel and is our cave instructor-trainer as well as being the training officer for NACD), much like you asks this question and jokes that he has no idea what a liftbag or DSMB is for, but when he and I have discussed this, admits that having a student fly a bag in mid-water does test buoyancy control. He also on occasion, when the seas are calm, dives in the ocean and is glad he can at least throw a bag up to the surface if need be.

I am no longer a member of the Training Panel and so cannot give you a definitive answer on if there is a change to this skill in the works... I know that Sean Harrison (our v-p of training and membership services) reads this forum and he may be able to chip in.

In the meanwhile, have fun and dive safe.

[tartullian]

[QUOTE=Scuba Cowboy;3818902]Please enlighten me as to which application, on a decompression dive, a single tank would be a better choice than doubles.... [QUOTE]

Deep wreck where doubles are tooo wide for the passageways...

[Fair Weather Diver]

After reading this thread I figured it was time for me to give you TDI’s perspective and logic as to why we require the shooting/floating of a bag in the Decompression Procedures course.

TDI’s logic behind this particular skill actually transcends a lot of course standards and that is, we want divers to learn skills for various environments. Because a diver comes to a course with a single goal in mind does not mean that is all they will ever do. How many divers have you heard say “all I want to do is get open water certified”, only to find themselves hooked and wanting to learn more? A year later they are enrolled in a cavern through cave course or a wreck course. The standards are drafted to create a well rounded diver, just like the educational system. Remember when you got out of high school and said “I am never going to use physics in my life” and think about how much you use that now while diving?
I agree that shooting a bag in an overhead environment is not only environmentally unfriendly, it could be dangerous. This skill must be conducted in a non-overhead area, such as a basin when teaching in caves or on the weather deck when conducting wreck dives.

For various reasons, training dives are and can be conducted in predictable environments like a basin, cave, connote. Doing training dives in these areas avoids the delays of weather, sea conditions, etc but the diver still needs to know the skills to be a proficient diver wherever their diving adventures might take them.

The skills and knowledge gained during the Decompression Procedures course is commonly used while wreck diving and shooting a bag is almost a mandatory skill in a lot of these locations.
I hope I have answered the question sufficiently and that my answer has provided some insight as to why it remains in our standard.

Safe diving
Sean Harrison VP training and Membership services

[donooo]

A couple of you have heard from me in the past on this topic. I am one of the single guys. I will never own doubles and the only time I will/would ever dive them is in a class. So hence what is to be gained by requiring them for training in either Adv X or Deco. You are trying to learn knowledge and concepts. If your goal is "true" tek, by all means do it in doubles. I will take the classes in a month in doubles, but I will then buy a 120 with an H valve as it has more practical applications to me. Easier to haul on and off of boats, store on a boat and to get filled.

It seems that we might be messing here with the gray line between advanced rec and "true" tek.

tnx don O

[Dive-aholic]

Thanks Steve and Sean. I appreciate the responses. I had no problems shooting a bag. I learned it in my wreck course and I teach it to my AOW students. I just didn't see the point of doing it when the course is done in a cave, which my courses were.

[rescue15]

wearing manifolded six litre (45 cubic foot) cylinders. This is a very light option.


If this configuration is acceptable, then why wouldn't a 95 or even greater size single with a pony (NOT a spare air) of say 25 cu ft or greater fit the requirements...My usual dive configuration consists of a LP steel 95 and a HP steel 26 pony. I carry more air doing rec dives than the double 45's . I used to dive double 100's but got tired of the weight. There are many reasons a person would want to take adv deco and not want to dive doubles. If it can be done safely, why should he be forced to dive a setup he is uncomfortable with? Isn't being uncomfortable and unfamiliar with your equipment equally as dangerous? Why is a "tech diver" always translate to "I dive with doubles"?

Steve

[Doppler]

If this configuration is acceptable, then why wouldn't a 95 or even greater size single with a pony (NOT a spare air) of say 25 cu ft or greater fit the requirements...My usual dive configuration consists of a LP steel 95 and a HP steel 26 pony. I carry more air doing rec dives than the double 45's . I used to dive double 100's but got tired of the weight. There are many reasons a person would want to take adv deco and not want to dive doubles. If it can be done safely, why should he be forced to dive a setup he is uncomfortable with? Isn't being uncomfortable and unfamiliar with your equipment equally as dangerous? Why is a "tech diver" always translate to "I dive with doubles"?

Steve

Not sure to whom you addressed this, but I think the responses in this thread made with my TDI hat on made it clear that your suggested configuration IS acceptable. The key is redundancy and working within a sensible gas management plan. Nothing to do with twins

[rescue15]

Not sure to whom you addressed this, but I think the responses in this thread made with my TDI hat on made it clear that your suggested configuration IS acceptable. The key is redundancy and working within a sensible gas management plan. Nothing to do with twins

This was not addressed to you Steve. I guess it was addressed to the instructors who will not let you take the class without doubles. ( I think one of the earlier posts in this thread implied it couldn't be done without doubles). I think SDI-TDI does a great job in their teachings and class structure. I am a recent convert from PADI. I feel my education has just begun. However, when you allow your instructors to set standards, there will undoubtedly be those who go over the top, ( I can imagine DIR divers), and will go into it with the attiude of if it's not my way of life/thinking it's wrong. Every "extreme" hobby and career have their share of these people. Understandingly, similar people will gravitate together. Those instructors will never have any problem getting new students but they will also push away the "not so extreme" diver who would like to get a taste of advanced and tec practices but doesn't want to go all in. This may be a turn off for these people and they will sadly never progress in their training. I've seen this happen to people in my carreer as well as in extreme sport hobbiests.

I know this post smacks of hijacking and for this I apologize. I have dived with doubles and didn't like it. As I stated before I now dive with larger capacity singles and a pony. I usually dive with more air now than I used to with doubles. Even with the amount of air I carry, I am seen not as a tec diver but as a rec diver that carries alot of air. As you stated...The key is redundancy and working within a sensible gas management plan.
This is what I believe and how I dive.

Steve

[Divin'Hoosier]

This was not addressed to you Steve. I guess it was addressed to the instructors who will not let you take the class without doubles. ( I think one of the earlier posts in this thread implied it couldn't be done without doubles). I think SDI-TDI does a great job in their teachings and class structure. I am a recent convert from PADI. I feel my education has just begun. However, when you allow your instructors to set standards, there will undoubtedly be those who go over the top, ( I can imagine DIR divers), and will go into it with the attiude of if it's not my way of life/thinking it's wrong. Every "extreme" hobby and career have their share of these people. Understandingly, similar people will gravitate together. Those instructors will never have any problem getting new students but they will also push away the "not so extreme" diver who would like to get a taste of advanced and tec practices but doesn't want to go all in. This may be a turn off for these people and they will sadly never progress in their training. I've seen this happen to people in my carreer as well as in extreme sport hobbiests.


There are a good number of DIR or heavily DIR influenced TDI instructors. If that's not your cup of tea, find a different instructor.


I know this post smacks of hijacking and for this I apologize. I have dived with doubles and didn't like it. As I stated before I now dive with larger capacity singles and a pony. I usually dive with more air now than I used to with doubles. Even with the amount of air I carry, I am seen not as a tec diver but as a rec diver that carries alot of air. As you stated...The key is redundancy and working within a sensible gas management plan.
This is what I believe and how I dive.

Steve

I'll let actual TDI instructors address your question directly, but speaking as a very new tech diver I want to point out some semantics. A pony bottle is a purely recreational concept. It's for the purpose of bringing a completely redundant alternate air source that is not factored into the dive plan. It's for emergencies only. If you have to go to it the dive is over and you ascend. There just isn't enough gas there to get you through a serious issue at depth.

In technical diving, all of the gas you have ... back gas and deco gases ... are part of an overall plan for the dive. The reason doubles are frequently required is that not only do you need to have more than enough back gas, think rule of thirds, but you need additional redundancy in accessing that gas in the event of an issue without having to immediately ascend. If you've racked up a deco obligation and have an issue with your back gas such as a 1st stage failure, burst disk failure or a tank o-ring extrusion, switching to a Pony bottle just won't cut it.

Most of the TDI instructors I looked at before beginning my training required two first stages and two second stages, one on a 7' hose and one on a 22"-24" hose and bungeed around your neck. Doubles were highly recommended, but you could also use a large single cylinder with an H-valve. While this doesn't provide you protection from a tank o-ring extrusion or burst disk failure, it does provide protection from a much more common 1st stage issue such as a freeflow in cold water. The problem then becomes the limits impossed by such a small air supply when diving thirds, but that's another issue alltogether.

[Scuba Cowboy]

Rescue 15: One of the great things about TDI is that they allow their instructors to teach the way they want. Their instructors don't dictate standards, they are allowed to work within them and create the kind of classes they think are best for their students. Everywhere else on this board we hear complaints of "dumbing down of classes", and some of us that teach for TDI have our own personal standards for a class that we refuse to "dumb down". I will not compromise my beliefs on the way my class will be taught. If my beliefs and yours don't match, I don't want you in my class.
Deco diving is technical diving, plain & simple. Its DANGEROUS. While I admit the class can be done in a big single tank, its not the safest configuration, therefore its not in my class. We cannot be all things to everyone, so if its your desire to do the class a certain way, you'll have to find the person that shares your beliefs. Its part of finding the right instructor for you. I wish you the best of luck in all your diving.

[rescue15]

I really didn't mean to offend anybody with my posts. (not even the DIR divers) I have been diving for about 20 years and I also don't think classes should be dummied down. I know I learned alot of things in my PADI open water that are not even touched on anymore and that is wrong. I still disagree with letting the instructors shape their classes the way they see fit. One thing I do agree with the DIR philosophy is the idea of consistancy. Consistancy should be an overriding factor in scuba instruction. You should be able to dive on any charter and know your buddy is speaking the same languabe as you.

I have been a carreer firefighter for over 23 years. This is one of th emost dangeroud professions there is. I live my life in limited viz and overhead environments. I know the importance of proper training but it needs to be consistant. For the last almost 10 years the fire service has been working towards a unified command system. What this means is a person from CA can go to MD and speak the same language while commanding a major incident. Everybody in the United States that is a firefighter can go anywhere in this great country and do his job 1000 miles away from home and do it as if he grew up there. Diving - one of the most dangerous hobbies should be the same way.

Blanket statements are what I mostly object to. If you don't dive doubles you can't penetrate...or cave dive or dive using the tec diver methodology...or you have to dive dry...Blanket statements also impart a very narrow mindedness. This can tend to stagnate learning and hinder progression. If you are not open to new ways and new technology you will never progress to the next level.

Yes deco diving is dangerous. I was diving doubles, hanging stage and deco bottles and doing deco on 100% oxygen before nitrox was widely accepted and long before Tec diving was a catch phrase.

Tec divers do not belong to a secret society. We should impart all our knowledge to whoever wants to learn it. If that means allowing large capacity singles then so be it. It can be done safely - you just have to be open to new configurations and ideas.

The Fire Department has had a saying..." 200 years of tradition unencumbered by progress or technology". Even the Fire service has seen the importance of change and embraces new technology now. Why can't the dive industry do the same.

Steve

[crpntr133]

One reason that I see why the dive industry can't have uniform dive rules is because this sport involves many countries, and widely varied conditions. To give a minimum standard and let instructors add to it as they see fit is probably one of the few ways that I see it can be done.
To teach everyone to dive every situation would take longer than anyone is willing to spend just to begin scuba diving.
I like the DIR philosophy but I would be willing to bet that there are those that teach more than the DIR standards.

I wish I would have learned as much as I did from my intro to tech, adv. nitrox and deco in all the rest of my dive classes. This came from not only the instructor but also from the three others that I took the class with.
From what I understand my Intro to Tech was not taught the normal way for most. The instructor knew that we were going on with adv. nitrox and deco and geared our intro class to it. We did the minimum and incorporated other things into it. I feel that this helped at least a little bit with me feeling more comfortable with the adv. nitrox and deco class.

[Dive-aholic]

Diving - one of the most dangerous hobbies should be the same way.

Oh, please! There are lots of other hobbies more dangerous and with more injuries and fatalities than diving, even when you take into account non-recreational diving. Diving does not need to be uniform across the board. It's a recreation, not a job.

[offthewall1]

Deco diving is technical diving, plain & simple. Its DANGEROUS.

According to who?

I know many recreational divers who do DECO diving, have been doing DECO diving for years and they're all still with us... so how dangerous is it?

It is only dangerous if you do not know what you're doing - say like - not knowing how to follow a computer or not knowing how to do tables if that is how you are diving. If you understand basic principles of diving, it is no more or less dangerous than non-deco diving.

As far as the use of "doubles" any redundancy at all is sufficient for Deco diving as long as the total amount of air required for all stops is readily available and a safety margin remains.

Rescue15's configuration seems adequate to me. That is not to say it is appropriate for all "technical" dives, but certainly more than adequate for some.

There is a big difference between extending your bottom time on a wreck in NC at 130 feet and causing yourself to go into a 5 or 10 minute Deco stop... and diving on the Doria.

In the end, the proper configuration for the activity is what matters.

[Divin'Hoosier]

According to who?

I know many recreational divers who do DECO diving, have been doing DECO diving for years and they're all still with us... so how dangerous is it?

It is only dangerous if you do not know what you're doing - say like - not knowing how to follow a computer or not knowing how to do tables if that is how you are diving. If you understand basic principles of diving, it is no more or less dangerous than non-deco diving.

As far as the use of "doubles" any redundancy at all is sufficient for Deco diving as long as the total amount of air required for all stops is readily available and a safety margin remains.

Rescue15's configuration seems adequate to me. That is not to say it is appropriate for all "technical" dives, but certainly more than adequate for some.

There is a big difference between extending your bottom time on a wreck in NC at 130 feet and causing yourself to go into a 5 or 10 minute Deco stop... and diving on the Doria.

In the end, the proper configuration for the activity is what matters.

How does that change the fact that decompression diving is technical diving? Regardless of who does it, it's technical diving. Now you can argue what equipment and training are required, but the industry has pretty uniformly defined two types of recreational diving ... sport and technical. Sport ... diving <= 130' within NDLs and without any physical overhead. Technical ... anything beyond sport.

[rescue15]

Oh, please! There are lots of other hobbies more dangerous and with more injuries and fatalities than diving, even when you take into account non-recreational diving. Diving does not need to be uniform across the board. It's a recreation, not a job.

You really need to learn how to read...I said ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS not THE MOST DANGEROUS

I have gotten more seriously injured mountain biking than firefighting. Can I infer that firefighting is not dangerous? Never got hurt diving either...still doesn't mean it's not dangerous


Thanks for the support Ken.

What most people on this type of forum can not comprehend is some people out there have a considerable amount of knowledge and a little common sense. I do have a little common sense. I acknowledge the shortcomings of singles and would never attempt a dive on the Doria with my current configuration - nor would I dive it with twin 45's which seem to be a more accepted tec configuration than my single 95 and 30 cu ft pony.

Can we start talking about the necessity of a 7 foot hose on an octopus now?

[Dive-aholic]

You really need to learn how to read...I said ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS not THE MOST DANGEROUS

No need for personal, petty insults. Maybe you should learn to read and put it to use by reading the TOS here.

My point is scuba diving shouldn't even be categorized in the DANGEROUS category. With the thousands of divers being certified in less than optimal classes every year, there are very few accidents.

I have gotten more seriously injured mountain biking than firefighting. Can I infer that firefighting is not dangerous? Never got hurt diving either...still doesn't mean it's not dangerous

Our definitions of dangerous are obviously very different. I consider the type of diving I do to be slightly dangerous, but still far from one of the most dangerous activities.

[rescue15]

My point is scuba diving shouldn't even be categorized in the DANGEROUS category. With the thousands of divers being certified in less than optimal classes every year, there are very few accidents.

Maybe we should do something with the less than optimal classes...maybe start teaching again the things that were taken out of the classes over the last 20 years. There are thousands of Firefighters trained every year and less than 100 deaths a year hation wide. Like I asked before Does that nean Firefighting is not dangerous?


Our definitions of dangerous are obviously very different. I consider the type of diving I do to be slightly dangerous,


Sure you do - you dive in Florida where charters cancel trips when the seas are greater than 1 foot rollers - I dove the Keys in March and the captain and dive master were worried about the severe current - I couldn't even feel any. Diving in FL is much different than where I live and dive. Come and dive the North Atlantic and then let's compare definitions about dangerous.

[crpntr133]

Maybe we should do something with the less than optimal classes...maybe start teaching again the things that were taken out of the classes over the last 20 years. There are thousands of Firefighters trained every year and less than 100 deaths a year nation wide. Like I asked before Does that mean Firefighting is not dangerous?


Firefighting is just like many other things in life, it is dangerous if you make it so. I have been a carpenter for 20 years now. I wouldn't consider setting a cabinet as dangerous as building a 555' smoke stack. Does that mean that construction isn't dangerous? I'm sure it is just like firefighting, you know when to walk away and say no way. This is no different than diving.

[Dive-aholic]

Maybe we should do something with the less than optimal classes...maybe start teaching again the things that were taken out of the classes over the last 20 years. There are thousands of Firefighters trained every year and less than 100 deaths a year hation wide. Like I asked before Does that nean Firefighting is not dangerous?

I am. My students learn to dive and learn to complete their skills midwater. But I'm only one person.


Sure you do - you dive in Florida where charters cancel trips when the seas are greater than 1 foot rollers - I dove the Keys in March and the captain and dive master were worried about the severe current - I couldn't even feel any. Diving in FL is much different than where I live and dive. Come and dive the North Atlantic and then let's compare definitions about dangerous.

The last time I dove a charter in Florida was several years ago. My dive sites are underground... :cool2:

Oh, and I have dove the North Atlantic, but unfortunately not as often as I'd like. The charters always cancel the night before the dives. :shakehead:

[rescue15]

Oh, and I have dove the North Atlantic, but unfortunately not as often as I'd like. The charters always cancel the night before the dives.



Yep, that's a serious side affect around here...you have to watch the weather way out and try your best to guess what the weather will be like...but many charters will go out as long as they can make it to open ocean safely. You may dive a different site than you planned but it will be a good dive. I have only ever gotten blown out on the shallow dives (less than 75 feet)



Let's all call a truce and get this thread back on track. I know I've been doing alot of instigating but I promise to start behaving.

[Dive-aholic]

Yep, that's a serious side affect around here...you have to watch the weather way out and try your best to guess what the weather will be like...but many charters will go out as long as they can make it to open ocean safely. You may dive a different site than you planned but it will be a good dive. I have only ever gotten blown out on the shallow dives (less than 75 feet)

Maybe I'm just booking with the wrong charters. My last canceled charter was due to a storm. Trip was canceled at 5pm the day before. The next day was a beautiful, windless day! I even checked sea conditions reports and the sea was flat!!! We were supposed to dive the Resor (130'). Let me know the NJ charters you use. I'd like to get some more dives in the Atlantic before I get too accustomed to the 68-72 degree water temps I get year round!


Let's all call a truce and get this thread back on track. I know I've been doing alot of instigating but I promise to start behaving.

Agreed!

[rescue15]

Maybe I'm just booking with the wrong charters. My last canceled charter was due to a storm. Trip was canceled at 5pm the day before. The next day was a beautiful, windless day! I even checked sea conditions reports and the sea was flat!!! We were supposed to dive the Resor (130'). Let me know the NJ charters you use. I'd like to get some more dives in the Atlantic before I get too accustomed to the 68-72 degree water temps I get year round!



I think I only was cancelled the day before once and that was due to a hurricane coming up the coast. Usually it's that morning. I wnnt to Key Largo last Easter and the weather was beautiful. We almost didn't go out because teh seas were right around 1 foot with the possibility of showers. I couldn't believe they even considered cancelling the trip. I haven't dove in NJ - mostly Ocean City, MD and some in NY.