Gap

[ScoobieDooo]

Anyone use the GAP deco software? I'm new to starting to look into deco theory and understand it all. Any tips on learning to use this tool?

[WreckWriter]

get V-Planner or decoplanner instead, they're much easier to use. GAP is not user friendly in my opinion.

WW

[ScoobieDooo]

Thanks,
I just downloaded V-Planner...

[O-ring]

WreckWriter once bubbled...
get V-Planner or decoplanner instead, they're much easier to use. GAP is not user friendly in my opinion.

WW
I can't stand GAP either...hate to start another rant, but why do all the crappy software packages (from a UI standpoint) have to be the only ones with RGBM???

Arrrgh!

[MechDiver]

I will agree somewhat with WW that GAP is not the most user friendly program out there, but you can do things I have not been able to do in V-Planner. And the graphic profiles and extensive reporting are very nice.

The trick to GAP is setting up the templates. Until you understand what they do (everything) and how they are setup, you'll just spin your wheels (PADI makes one of those :) )

MD

[MikeFerrara]

O-ring once bubbled...

I can't stand GAP either...hate to start another rant, but why do all the crappy software packages (from a UI standpoint) have to be the only ones with RGBM???

Arrrgh!

What RGBM? I keep hearing that but I checked out the site again the other day and I didn't see anything about RGBM.

Gap isn't so hard to use. MechDiver is right, once you figure out how to use the templates it's not so bad.

[MechDiver]

Speaking about deco software. Does anyone know how to force V-Planner to make a deco stop at a ppo2 of 1.6? For example 50% @ 70'? Setting the values in config doesn't seem to make any difference. The only thing I have found is to set a "dummy" dive value in the left column, say 70,3,50 and choose that after the main profile. Very annoying.

Also, on the V-P vs GAP issue. We were planning a fairly simple mix dive for last weekend (150 for 25 using 22/45) using V-P and GAP. Althought they came up with nearly the same RT, the backgas usage had a delta of 20 cuft using the same values for RMV.

Anybody with both programs seeing this?

MD

[MikeFerrara]

MechDiver once bubbled...
Speaking about deco software. Does anyone know how to force V-Planner to make a deco stop at a ppo2 of 1.6? For example 50% @ 70'? Setting the values in config doesn't seem to make any difference. The only thing I have found is to set a "dummy" dive value in the left column, say 70,3,50 and choose that after the main profile. Very annoying.

Also, on the V-P vs GAP issue. We were planning a fairly simple mix dive for last weekend (150 for 25 using 22/45) using V-P and GAP. Althought they came up with nearly the same RT, the backgas usage had a delta of 20 cuft using the same values for RMV.

Anybody with both programs seeing this?

MD

Go into config and set it so there is a minimum stop time at gas switches. I think that'll do it.

[MechDiver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Go into config and set it so there is a minimum stop time at gas switches. I think that'll do it.

Set them up to 5 or 6 minutes, but the program just ignores them. You are supposed to be able to set a "dummy" stop (70,-,35) for something like travel gas, and then to force a stop on ascent. It works great on descent if placed before the main profile, but totally ignores it if placed after.

MD

[MikeFerrara]

I'll play with it to see if I can remember. I've been using Dplan.

[MikeFerrara]

It worked for me. Give me your profile and I'll try to duplicate what you'r doing

[O-ring]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


What RGBM? I keep hearing that but I checked out the site again the other day and I didn't see anything about RGBM.

Gap isn't so hard to use. MechDiver is right, once you figure out how to use the templates it's not so bad.
http://www.abysmal.com/pages/features-soft.html

I am not sure about GAP, but I heard RGBM was either in it or about to be in it...

[MechDiver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
It worked for me. Give me your profile and I'll try to duplicate what you'r doing

I don't have it here, or the program, so from memory:

using VPM-B
150fsw
25 min
22/45 with 50% deco
rmv depth 0.7
rmv deco 0.4
ascent speed 200-100 15fpm; 100-0 10fpm
conservationism: +2 (I think)
all values for deco ppO2 set to 1.62
stop times set to 3

Can't think of anything else relevant

[MikeFerrara]

MechDiver once bubbled...


I don't have it here, or the program, so from memory:

using VPM-B
150fsw
25 min
22/45 with 50% deco
rmv depth 0.7
rmv deco 0.4
ascent speed 200-100 15fpm; 100-0 10fpm
conservationism: +2 (I think)
all values for deco ppO2 set to 1.62
stop times set to 3

Can't think of anything else relevant

This is what I got.....

V-Planner by R. Hemingway, VPM code by Erik C. Baker.

DIVE PLAN

Surface interval = 2 day 0 hr 0 min.
Altitude = 0ft
Conservatism = + 2

Dec to 150ft (1) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 120ft/min decent.
Level 150ft 23:45 (25) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 1.19 ppO2, 43ft END
Asc to 100ft (26) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, -30ft/min ascent.
Asc to 80ft (27) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 80ft 0:40 (28) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 0.74 ppO2, 14ft END
Stop at 70ft 3:00 (31) on Nitrox 50.0, 1.53 ppO2, 32ft END
Stop at 60ft 1:00 (32) on Nitrox 50.0, 1.38 ppO2, 26ft END
Stop at 50ft 1:00 (33) on Nitrox 50.0, 1.24 ppO2, 19ft END
Stop at 40ft 1:00 (34) on Nitrox 50.0, 1.09 ppO2, 13ft END
Stop at 30ft 2:00 (36) on Nitrox 50.0, 0.94 ppO2, 7ft END
Stop at 20ft 12:00 (48) on Nitrox 50.0, 0.79 ppO2, 0ft END
Asc to sfc. (48) on Nitrox 50.0, -30ft/min ascent.

Off gassing starts at 105.9 ft
OTU's this dive: 54
CNS Total: 19.8%

102.1 cu ft Trimix 22.0/45.0
15.8 cu ft Nitrox 50.0
118 cu ft TOTAL

[MechDiver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Stop at 70ft 3:00 (31) on Nitrox 50.0, 1.53 ppO2, 32ft END


Did you force the 70ft stop anywhere Mike? And are you using the VPM-B as we didn't get the 60 or 50 ft stops either.

MD

[MikeFerrara]

MechDiver once bubbled...


Did you force the 70ft stop anywhere Mike? And are you using the VPM-B as we didn't get the 60 or 50 ft stops either.

MD

hmm...
Not sure what you mean by VPM-B
I looked and I am running version 2.0 so there may have been a revission?

I didn't force the 70 ft stop but I did have it set for a minimum stop time of 3 at a gas switch.

[MechDiver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


hmm...
Not sure what you mean by VPM-B
I looked and I am running version 2.0 so there may have been a revission?

I didn't force the 70 ft stop but I did have it set for a minimum stop time of 3 at a gas switch.

Looks like you have an older version Mike. The new one has VPM-B added, which is somewhat more conservative. I think it moves some of the deeper deco time to shallower stops. Hmm, maybe I should find my older copy and rerun that profile.
Thanks much for the help Mike.

MD

[WreckWriter]

I think I know why you're losing the stop. In the config there's a checkbox for "O2 window affect". What this does is remove un-needed stops from the profile. Looking at the profile you have, its not very aggressive so I bet it doesn't really need a 70 foot stop. Do you have this turned on?

If so, try this: Be sure you have "extended stops" checked, set a minimum gas switch time (I use 5 min) then turn OFF (uncheck) "O2 window affect" and re-calc the dive. Let me know if that works.

Don't get an older version, VPM-B is supposed to be safer. I've dived it fairly hard with no problems.

WW

[WreckWriter]

O-ring once bubbled...
I am not sure about GAP, but I heard RGBM was either in it or about to be in it...

I think its still in the future, if at all. The one that has it is Abyss which costs $300.

WW

[cadet diver]

If you have a PDA, and are cheap, try J-Plan. Its free and it works.

[MechDiver]

cadet diver once bubbled...
If you have a PDA, and are cheap, try J-Plan. Its free and it works.

PalmVPM is also free, and quite close to V-Planner using VPM.

MD

[MechDiver]

WreckWriter once bubbled...
I think I know why you're losing the stop. In the config there's a checkbox for "O2 window affect". What this does is remove un-needed stops from the profile. Looking at the profile you have, its not very aggressive so I bet it doesn't really need a 70 foot stop. Do you have this turned on?

If so, try this: Be sure you have "extended stops" checked, set a minimum gas switch time (I use 5 min) then turn OFF (uncheck) "O2 window affect" and re-calc the dive. Let me know if that works.

Don't get an older version, VPM-B is supposed to be safer. I've dived it fairly hard with no problems.

WW

Will try this. I have played with the O2 Window switch, but not enough to get a feel for what it did.

Thanks WW.

MD

[WreckWriter]

I get a 70 foot stop either way.

O2 window off:

------------------

V-Planner 3.10 by R. Hemingway, VPM code by Erik C. Baker.

Decompression model: VPM-B

DIVE PLAN
Surface interval = 2 day 0 hr 0 min.
Altitude = 0ft
Conservatism = + 2

Dec to 150ft (3) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 50ft/min descent.
Level 150ft 22:00 (25) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 1.22 ppO2, 43ft END
Asc to 100ft (25) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, -60ft/min ascent.
Asc to 80ft (26) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 80ft 0:30 (27) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 0.75 ppO2, 14ft END
Stop at 70ft 5:00 (32) on Nitrox 50.0, 1.56 ppO2, 32ft END
Stop at 60ft 1:00 (33) on Nitrox 50.0, 1.41 ppO2, 26ft END
Stop at 50ft 1:00 (34) on Nitrox 50.0, 1.26 ppO2, 20ft END
Stop at 40ft 1:00 (35) on Nitrox 50.0, 1.10 ppO2, 13ft END
Stop at 30ft 1:00 (36) on Nitrox 50.0, 0.95 ppO2, 7ft END
Stop at 20ft 12:00 (48) on Nitrox 50.0, 0.80 ppO2, 1ft END
Stop at 20ft 5:00 (53) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 0.35 ppO2, 0ft END
Stop at 20ft 3:00 (56) on Nitrox 50.0, 0.80 ppO2, 1ft END
Asc to sfc. (56) on Nitrox 50.0, -30ft/min ascent.

Off gassing starts at 108.8 ft

OTU's this dive: 58
CNS Total: 22.5%

99.6 cu ft Trimix 22.0/45.0
24.6 cu ft Nitrox 50.0
124.2 cu ft TOTAL


DIVE PLAN COMPLETE

------------------

O2 window ON:

V-Planner 3.10 by R. Hemingway, VPM code by Erik C. Baker.

Decompression model: VPM-B

DIVE PLAN
Surface interval = 2 day 0 hr 0 min.
Altitude = 0ft
Conservatism = + 2

Dec to 150ft (3) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 50ft/min descent.
Level 150ft 22:00 (25) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 1.22 ppO2, 43ft END
Asc to 100ft (25) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, -60ft/min ascent.
Asc to 80ft (26) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 80ft 0:30 (27) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 0.75 ppO2, 14ft END
Stop at 70ft 5:00 (32) on Nitrox 50.0, 1.56 ppO2, 32ft END
Stop at 30ft 3:00 (36) on Nitrox 50.0, 0.95 ppO2, 7ft END
Stop at 20ft 12:00 (48) on Nitrox 50.0, 0.80 ppO2, 1ft END
Stop at 20ft 5:00 (53) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 0.35 ppO2, 0ft END
Stop at 20ft 3:00 (56) on Nitrox 50.0, 0.80 ppO2, 1ft END
Asc to sfc. (56) on Nitrox 50.0, -30ft/min ascent.

Off gassing starts at 108.8 ft

OTU's this dive: 57
CNS Total: 22.1%

99.6 cu ft Trimix 22.0/45.0
24.0 cu ft Nitrox 50.0
123.6 cu ft TOTAL


DIVE PLAN COMPLETE

----------------------


Notice the fairly significant increase in RT over Mike's example which shows the changes in VPM-B

WW

[Genesis]

Why does VPM give you a backgas break on 50/50 for deco gas at your shallow stop with a PO2 well under 1.0?

That doesn't seem to make much sense... am I missing something here?

[MechDiver]

WreckWriter once bubbled...
I get a 70 foot stop either way.

O2 window ON:

V-Planner 3.10 by R. Hemingway, VPM code by Erik C. Baker.

Decompression model: VPM-B

DIVE PLAN
Surface interval = 2 day 0 hr 0 min.
Altitude = 0ft
Conservatism = + 2

Dec to 150ft (3) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 50ft/min descent.
Level 150ft 22:00 (25) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 1.22 ppO2, 43ft END
Asc to 100ft (25) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, -60ft/min ascent.
Asc to 80ft (26) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 80ft 0:30 (27) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 0.75 ppO2, 14ft END
Stop at 70ft 5:00 (32) on Nitrox 50.0, 1.56 ppO2, 32ft END
Stop at 30ft 3:00 (36) on Nitrox 50.0, 0.95 ppO2, 7ft END
Stop at 20ft 12:00 (48) on Nitrox 50.0, 0.80 ppO2, 1ft END
Stop at 20ft 5:00 (53) on Trimix 22.0/45.0, 0.35 ppO2, 0ft END
Stop at 20ft 3:00 (56) on Nitrox 50.0, 0.80 ppO2, 1ft END
Asc to sfc. (56) on Nitrox 50.0, -30ft/min ascent.

Off gassing starts at 108.8 ft

OTU's this dive: 57
CNS Total: 22.1%

99.6 cu ft Trimix 22.0/45.0
24.0 cu ft Nitrox 50.0
123.6 cu ft TOTAL


DIVE PLAN COMPLETE

----------------------


Notice the fairly significant increase in RT over Mike's example which shows the changes in VPM-B

WW

The only difference I see is you are using a significantly higher ascent rate than I did above 100' (30 vs 10).

I may have seen this, but how did you set in the gas break time at 20'?

[WreckWriter]

Genesis once bubbled...
Why does VPM give you a backgas break on 50/50 for deco gas at your shallow stop with a PO2 well under 1.0?

That doesn't seem to make much sense... am I missing something here?

It shouldn't but....

Because I have it set to give air breaks on the 20 foot stop after 12 minutes (normally would be on O2) and I forgot to uncheck the air break box when I did these calcs. It actually seems to be a glitch because it shouldn't give breaks on 50% O2. I'll have to look into that.

WW

[Genesis]

I just noticed that and said "huh?", because with the total CNS clock and the PO2 exposures in that dive during deco I couldn't imagine how the program would have come up with the need for a backgas break at the 20' stop :)

[WreckWriter]

Genesis once bubbled...
I just noticed that and said "huh?", because with the total CNS clock and the PO2 exposures in that dive during deco I couldn't imagine how the program would have come up with the need for a backgas break at the 20' stop :)

I didn't notice it until you mentioned it as I almost always use 2 deco gasses. I just wrote Ross about it.

WW

[rossh]

Hello All,

1/ The extended stop option, will only be applied, if an actual stop was required at that level. i.e if the deco does not start until 50 ft, then no extention will occur at 70ft for a 50% gas switch.

2/ O2 window affect - In the example dive here, an extented stop for 5 minutes at 70ft, has removed the 60 and 50 ft stops. The O2 window affect allows this due to the over stopping done at 70ft, from the extended stop.
Without the O2 window affect, the missing stops would have been the minimum of 1 minute each.

3/ Air breaks are tricky. I'm guessing you have the depth switch set at 20 or 30 ft? Any of the conditions will trip the airbreaks, but only if it fits the timing sequences set.

Regards
--
Ross Hemingway

[jeepster0000]

Where do I get palm VPM? I currently have d-plan and j-plan that I like alot. I just like running different profiles to see the difference.
Thanks
ADAM

[WreckWriter]

Good to see you here! I hope you'll hang out and contribute your expertise!

Tom

[WreckWriter]

rossh once bubbled...
3/ Air breaks are tricky. I'm guessing you have the depth switch set at 20 or 30 ft? Any of the conditions will trip the airbreaks, but only if it fits the timing sequences set.

Regards
--
Ross Hemingway

Yes, I have it set to 30'. Probably the easiest answer is to just turn a/b off on the rare occasion I'm not using both deco gasses.

WW

[MechDiver]

jeepster0000 once bubbled...
Where do I get palm VPM? I currently have d-plan and j-plan that I like alot. I just like running different profiles to see the difference.
Thanks
ADAM

PalmVPM is only available from one of those totally annoying yahoo group pages. Go to www.v-planner.com and look for the link to the program. You'll have to join the "yahoo family" to get to the Palm group.

MD

[MechDiver]

rossh once bubbled...
Hello All,

Regards
--
Ross Hemingway

I'll second WW's welcome and thank you for the information. That cleared up some things.
WW, many thanks to you also. Now, if you'd only work on that 80% thing...

MD

[WreckWriter]

MechDiver once bubbled...
Now, if you'd only work on that 80% thing...

MD

stay away from that stroke gas bro :)

WW

[MechDiver]

WreckWriter once bubbled...


stay away from that stroke gas bro :)

WW

100% is way too much work man! I don't know how you guys do it, but it took 3 of us to get than damn DAN O2 kit submerged. And, have you EVER tried to clear one of those plastic Pocket Masks underwater:confused:
Then, the stupid oxygen tank rusted to boot.
Nope, just way too much work...

[WreckWriter]

MechDiver once bubbled...


100% is way too much work man! I don't know how you guys do it, but it took 3 of us to get than damn DAN O2 kit submerged. And, have you EVER tried to clear one of those plastic Pocket Masks underwater:confused:
Then, the stupid oxygen tank rusted to boot.
Nope, just way too much work...

Heh! Yea, it takes practice :)

WW