Courses for progression into deco diving

[ScoobieDooo]

What would you say should be the order of progression for anyone wanting to get into deco diving - in order of additional training/courses...and what agency?

Basic Open Water?
?
?
?
?
?

Thanks...

[nickjb]

BSAC teach and practice deco from a very early stage. It is just taught as part of diving.

[ScoobieDooo]

BSAC?

[Spectre]

I'm confused as to if this is a thread or a poll. Are you looking for a list of agencies that can get you to deco diving? Or are you looking for a course path?

I'm going to assume you are looking for a course path.

You can go:

OW
AOW
Nitrox
Advanced Nitrox [tdi]
Deco Procedures [tdi]

You could also go DIR-F & Tech 1 w/ GUE

Then there is IANTD, ANDI and a few others that I don't know the course program for.

[O-ring]

ScoobieDooo once bubbled...
BSAC?
CMAS (Confederation Mondiale des Activites Subaquatique) does it also...deco tables from the beginning. I have one buddy who is French and he explained the tables to me once...they are a little more thorough in basic diver education than we are, IMHO.

[MikeFerrara]

O-ring once bubbled...

CMAS (Confederation Mondiale des Activites Subaquatique) does it also...deco tables from the beginning. I have one buddy who is French and he explained the tables to me once...they are a little more thorough in basic diver education than we are, IMHO.

My experience with CMAS is limited to one CMAS certified diver. This diver makes a heck of a story all by himself though. He was the husband of an OW student of mine. I say was because if he continued diving I doubt he is still alive.

Back in the days when we used to let divers tag along with a class without signing releases or paying money....

On one dive he tagged along with an AOW class. He ran out (or very nearly) of air and shared air with one of the DM's to the surface. Keep in mind he wasn't a student and I had no intention of supervising him. However my wife decided to look at his air gauge after he signaled ok when asked about it. We're at about 60 ft. She then came to ma and told me he had 500 psi. I turned the dive and brought him up next to me. Now I'm supervising him but only to keep him alive. I wanted to get him shallower or near a line instead of having him ascend in OW. Now he is huffing and puffing. Not two minutes later he is getting really low on gas. I got him to about 20 ft and had him hold onto a tree trunk and had him switch to a DM's alt so he could do a bit of a safety stop. After surfacing he exclaimed that he thought the ordeal was good experience. I explained that it was not and that finishing the dive with a bunch of gas left like I did was a good experience.

On another dive he and a buddy (neither had been students of mine) were following an OW class I was teaching. His buddy signalled to me that he was missing. I brought the class to the surface and left them with a DM. I found his bubbles on the surface and followed them down ( he was only about 40 ft from the platform). When I reached him he was facing the platform, sitting on the bottom looking at his gauges. I thought he was picking up a heading back?. Anyway I led him back to the platform. When we got to the surface he asked me if 200 psi was enough to finish the dive. Then it dawned on me that he didn't even have a compass. What he was doing sitting on the bottom looking at his gauges was watching his air disapear while he tried to figure out what he should do.

There was another dive where we saved this guy from himself but the post is getting long.

If CMAS is more thorough this guy somehow slipped through the cracks.

[O-ring]

Geez. Yeah, I guess our limited experiences may be the two extremes of CMAS trained divers. The guy I know is a really good diver - knowledgeable, skilled, and an overall good guy.

[Richeod]

When you say you want to get into deco diving, how in-depth do you want to go? If you're just looking at some increased knowledge to do a few minutes of deco here or there there are many agencies that can give you the nesessary instruction. Spectre's post (OW-TDI) would be fine. If you want to eventually be someone that plays the game at the highest level you need to be a little more choosey. I'm not saying settle for less, just that if you never plan on more than 15 minutes at 130 ft. you don't need to know how to plan a 400 ft. dive.
If you're looking at someday doing really advanced dives I would start with the GUE DIRF-Tech route. However this is DIR diving and it's not for everyone. If you choose not to go with GUE be VERY picky about choosing your instructor. I'm sure there are some excellent instructors in EVERY agency. Just don't blindly walk into the local shop and sign up for a deco class. Do some good research.

Hope this helps.

[Doppler]

ScoobieDooo once bubbled...
What would you say should be the order of progression for anyone wanting to get into deco diving - in order of additional training/courses...and what agency?

Basic Open Water?
?
?
?
?
?

Thanks...

Hi Scoobie:

You have a habit of asking the interesting ones! :)

Acency and courses are secondary -- usual disclaimer. More important is to ask yourself what benefits are you looking for from the training and who can deliver those to you in the most interesting way. (The old instructor is key adage.)

Also ask yourself, am I ready for this. Deco diving and by extention technical diving, does require some additional committment from its participants.

All that aside, and regardless of who and what you pick to deliver the training, work on being prepared... chances are you are going to have some additional kit for the course and you are certainly going to be doing things in the water that may be "out of the ordinary."

1/ Know your gear -- log lots of dives with any new stuff you will be using. This includes reels, liftbags, deco bottles, and of course doubles, backplate and wings.

2/ Master buoyancy. I have students "play" various games that pretty clearly point out where work is needed.

3/ Swimming. Add frog kick, modified flutter, helicopter turns and reverse kicks to your arsenal of skills.

4/ Try to understand what a dive algorithm is and what it actually tells us.

5/ Think about what a good dive plan should include... you probably already have all the answers.

When you have all that in a line, look around for a deco class. Look for an instuctor who is teaching more than the course minimum... because none of the agencies (GUE comes close but still misses IMHO) really has a program to help divers make the tranition from recreational sport to deco and tech.

Hope this helps

DD

[Okiecaver]

Doppler,

As the man whose website got me interested, for good or ill, in technical and cave diving, it's nice to start running into you here. I still miss your old email list!.

Scoobie, I'd do EVERYTHING that Steve here says. He knows his stuff, so I'll just pass a few of things I've discovered.

Train for the envirionment you will be diving in the most. I wanted to cave dive, so almost all my technical training has been in caves. I'm lucky that I'm only 3 hours away from Missouri caves and mines.

TAKE YOUR TIME. It took me 18 months of continuous studying and diving to go from cavern to full cave, picking up normoxic trimix, equipment repair, and gas blender along the way. Yeah, you can do the one week immersion courses, but I have found that most of those are not optimal, since the learning curve can be so steep. The assumption is that you will be diving in that same location, with that same group that you learned with the next week, which is rarely the case.

Hit the gym. Hard.

Find an instructor who is diving the way you want to dive, not just teaching. That way, you have a mentor and a potential dive buddy, not just an instructor.

Finally, get some of your buddies involved with you. Then you always have buddies to dive with.

My progression was
YMCA OW2
Drysuit
TDI Nitrox
IANTD Overhead/cavern
IANTD Advanced Nitrox
IANTD Intro to Cave
IANTD Equipment repair
IANTD Gas Blender
IANTD Normoxic Trimix
IANTD Full cave.

From TDI Nitrox to Full cave was a full 2 years and over 150 dives not counting training. I hope to have at least 50 more cave dives by December, and qualify for my Advanced Cave.

Take your time buddy, the lakes, ocean, and caves will be there.....

Dive safe
Brock

[DIR Tec Diver]

If you really want to learn it the right way, using the most current methodology, and deco models, go with GUE. PADI is to early in their training stages, TDI is a complete waste of time, CMAS should not even be on the list. IANTD is pretty good, but you need to select the instructor carefully.

GUE is really your only sure thing.

[Jonathan]

the instructor and not the agency - IMHO

[rdriver]

I would also say find the instructor that fits what you are looking for, I have been fortunate to have been diving with some really good divers unfortunately some of them weren't good instructors they spent more time boasting on what they have done..... than what they could do to teach it...... without that transference of knowledge taking place....... the learning curve stays pretty flat.
Rob

[Northeastwrecks]

I agree that the instructor is the most critical part of the mix.

FWIW, my progression is set forth below. Note that I've also had the pleasure to learn deco the old fashioned way. I was taught by experienced deco divers who weren't all that interested in chasing cards.

OW
AOW
Buoyancy
Nitrox
Rescue
DIR-F
Adv. Nitrox (TDI, scheduled for this summer)
Deco Procedures (TDI, scheduled for this summer).

GUE offers adequate courses with outstanding skills development. However, you should verify that the shops where you will be getting you fills will actually accept the card.

That's why I'm not taking Tri-Ox.

[LUBOLD8431]

DIR TEC DIVER , you are too much... DO they give you a monthly commision check or something???

TDI, IANTD and others put together a good program. But, as most everyone said, the Instructor shoudl be the most important aspect. Choose the Instructor first, then the agency....

[Ari]

OW
AOW
Nitrox

A lot of diving

Go tech

I am leaning towards taking a tech course in the near future. I was thinking about this last year but chose to go DM, in order to get more diving experience. At this point I feel that I am less concerened about my basic diving skills, buoyancy and depth. I think I am a better diver today and its about time to try learning some new skills, such as deco diving.

Ari :)

[Braunbehrens]

Of course I would say that. However, some of the othe advice is not bad either.

Choose the instructor carefully. I have not heard bad things about GUE instructors, but they are human as well. If you can do a class with Andrew Georgitsis, he will really teach you something, I promise. He travels all over, so you may well be able to do this.

Let me give you an example of how thorough the instruction is.

We were doing a dive and were practicing a situation where a diver has lost his mask. (we didn't know that was what we were going to practice, btw, it was sprung on us). Anyway, I was the diver in question, and I was flailing around a bit. One of my buddies, realized my problem, and grabbed my arm to lead me along the line to get back. However, he was being nice. Time was ticking, and we weren't making much progress. Then Andrew showed us how it's done. He grabbed my arm, nearly dislocationg my shoulder (slight exaggeration) and shoved me in the direction of the "exit" (we were just following a line in open water). I was moving even when I wasn't kicking. There was no doubt as to the direction of travel, nor as to who was in charge.

The lesson, in this case, was that when you take charge of a diver who is somehow debilitated, you don't do it with kids gloves. You take charge in a serious manner and should be forceful enough about it so that there is no question. If you want to have a discussion, as Andrew would say, you can do so that evening over Pizza, when everyone is alive.

I have a couple other items I should mention about progression to deco..

Yes, lots of diving is mandatory. All your basic skills should be 100%. Gas sharing, hovering at any depth, getting to your valves, etc. etc. In a GUE - F class you will find out what you need to work on, and you can practice those skills for the Tech 1 class.

Whatever you do, don't let anyone talk you into any kind of Deep Air, Extended Range, or any other nonsense where they have you breathe air at depth to "see how you handle it". You wouldn't take driving instruction from someone who said "You'll eventually have a drink and drive, so let's get plastered and take this baby on the highway, I want to see how you handle it."

Air is good for you car's tires, and that's about it.

[Charlie99]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
Air is good for you car's tires, and that's about it. hmmm. Where have I heard that one before?

While I agree with your advice warning against deep air, your final statement is a bit extremist, raises my b.s. detector and makes me wonder about the validity of the rest of your statements.

Charlie

[Braunbehrens]

Charlie99 once bubbled...
hmmm. Where have I heard that one before?

While I agree with your advice warning against deep air, your final statement is a bit extremist, raises my b.s. detector and makes me wonder about the validity of the rest of your statements.

Charlie

Charlie, I may repeat something I hear if it makes sense to me. However, I do believe I came up with the car tire thing. I have used it a few times before, so you may have heard it on other forums.

Air is a terrible gas for diving. I typically have helium in all my tanks, no matter what. If I know my dive won't exceed 50 ft, I might opt for nitrox, but usually my tanks are already full. If I'm getting an air fill, it's usually hyperclean air which I use when I service Scuba gear...or sometimes to inflate stuff. It's been so long since I've dived air, I don't remember what year it was, but I know it wasn't this century.

As for your dismissal of everything I say because I happen to think that air has no place in diving...well, your statement sounds pretty extreme to me. Do you always make snap judgments like that?

Air has only disadvantages over other gasses. No advantages. It is harder to deco from and it is more narcotic. At least that is the conclusion I have come to. All the info is out there, anyone is free to look it up.

[MikeFerrara]

Must be nice! I have my own fill station and still can't afford to use helium on every dive.

[Charlie99]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
As for your dismissal of everything I say because I happen to think that air has no place in diving...well, your statement sounds pretty extreme to me. Do you always make snap judgments like that?

"Makes me wonder about the validity of your statements" is what I said. Even a dead clock is right 2 times a day.

I evaluate the source of information. Someone who dismisses Jon lines as being dangerous in all situations, someone who dismisses air as only being fit for filling tires, and someone who makes bogus statements about the operation of computers should expect their unsupported statements to receive additional scrutiny rather than unquestioned acceptance.

[Braunbehrens]

Despite your tone you are right on two points, however, I fail to see where I made bogus statements about computers.

If you'd like to talk about air, we can do that too. I gave my reasons for not diving air.

I made a statement, which I feel is true. If you think it's false, I'm happy to tell you why I think it's true. If you want justifications, just ask. I'm not going to put them into every post.

I'm getting a little tired of people going off the deep end every time I say something. Either discuss it, or don't.

To me these statements are as obvious as saying "the sky is blue". Then you come along and say "your dismissal of the possibility that the sky may be green makes me doubt everything you say".

It's getting a little annoying, and it's boring to have to defend your character all the time. You should doubt everything you hear on the interet, and figure out for yourself if the informatino makes sense. This is life support, not golf. Making mistakes in this sport can be very costly. Just because someone was right (or wrong) before, does not mean they will be again. Having done a big dive also doesn't mean that someone has all the answers.

Use the noodle!

[Pez de Diablo]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
<snip>
It's getting a little annoying, and it's boring to have to defend your character all the time.
Is it because you are full of BS or everyone else is. 10 000 to 1 it is you. If it’s boring, defending your lack of character, please go post on a board that only wants to hear what a closed minded individual has to say.


Braunbehrens once bubbled...
<snip>
I'm getting a little tired of people going off the deep end every time I say something. Either discuss it, or don't.
You are the one that is not engaging in discussion. You only state an unsubstantiated opinion. Without backing up your point with clear and valid reasons to substantiate your opinion, people give your statements no validity.

[Braunbehrens]

Pez, I keep trying to debate the issues. Look at my last post. You however, are not debating the issues, you are again attacking my character. You are even starting to be insulting. I don't consider myself close minded at all. However, I'm not going to change my mind until I am convinced that my previous opinion was wrong.

As for telling me to go post on another board, that is again unfriendly and uncalled for.

I suggest you do whatever it is you need to do to proceed in a friendly manner, AS I HAVE! If not, I suggest YOU leave the discussion, if you can't keep it friendly and focused on the issues.

No offense, but I didn't come here to engage in petty name calling.

[MikeFerrara]

Braunbehrens,

I think people are mixing you up with those other guys.

[Braunbehrens]

Sigh... you may be right.

When I first got interested in DIR I went through flame war after flame war. I was genuinely insterested, and wasn't going to let a bit of sandpaper get in my way of figuring out what works and what doesn't.

Unfortunately, DIR really has gotten a bad name among some people, and they tend to put us all into the same bag.

It's kind of funny if you think about it...the intolerance of intolerance.

--

There are two kinds of poeple. Those that classify people into two categories and those that don't.

[Pez de Diablo]

Okay, I am asking for justifications for your statements. Please justify them, in your posts. If you don't then we cannot debate them. You are the one that said you wouldn't post justification unless asked for, I am asking.

From my point of view you are only willing to see the merits of one system and you do not consider any other training agency or system to have any validity. This IMO is close minded. Sorry if this offends you.

You are the one complaining about having to defend your character all the time, I am only suggesting a solution to your problem when I suggested that you post somewhere else. I would much rather see you continue to post your defence of your character here, it would be sad to lose you.

DIR does not have a bad name. I as well as many people (see DIR poll) think it has an excellent reputation as one of the foremost dive systems and GUE has an excellent reputation as one of the foremost training agencies. It is closed minded individuals that blindly state that one system is the right and only system to dive, that have a bad name.

[Braunbehrens]

Pez de Diablo once bubbled...
Okay, I am asking for justifications for your statements. Please justify them, in your posts. If you don't then we cannot debate them. You are the one that said you wouldn't post justification unless asked for, I am asking.

From my point of view you are only willing to see the merits of one system and you do not consider any other training agency or system to have any validity. This IMO is close minded. Sorry if this offends you.

You are the one complaining about having to defend your character all the time, I am only suggesting a solution to your problem when I suggested that you post somewhere else. I would much rather see you continue to post your defence of your character here, it would be sad to lose you.

DIR does not have a bad name. I as well as many people (see DIR poll) think it has an excellent reputation as one of the foremost dive systems and GUE has an excellent reputation as one of the foremost training agencies. It is closed minded individuals that blindly state that one system is the right and only system to dive, that have a bad name.

Pez, I did talk about the differences between TDI and GUE in this thread:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27125&perpage=25&display=&pagenumber=3

I'm fairly new here so I don't know how to reference a particular message, but there are two messages in a row that should provide a starting poing on page 3. I was assuming that everyone reading this thread was reading that thread too, but maybe that's a mistake. I'm used to mailing lists which are a little more serial in nature.

I'm not closed minded, or blind. I have taken PADI, IANTD, TDI and GUE classes. I made up my mind as to which one was best. All I'm doing is trying to save people money, aggravation, and possibly some very unsafe diving.

It is a complicated subject, and I'm sure there are good people in every agency. However, my experience, both with the materials and the content is that GUE is worlds better.

The fact that I'm not that great at explaining why does not mean it isn't so, nor that I'm closed minded.

If you have any specific questions I'd be more than happy to answer them...