New GUE standard gas mixes?

[O-ring]

I don't know who else caught George's email over on quest, but he said that GUE will change its standard gases to match the WKPP standard gases (http://www.wkpp.org/gases.htm) on the next printing of the GUE materials.

Finally we have something good to talk about...



Backgas would be:
Depth Range Max O2% Min He%
0-190 ft. 18 35
200 ft.+ 12 70

Drysuit Inflation Gas - 100% Argon




Deco gases would be:
Depth Range Max O2% Min He%
200 - 240 ft.* 16 45
130 - 190 ft. 18 35
80 - 120 ft. 35 25
30 - 70 ft. 50 --
Oxygen @ 30ft
ONLY when Dry, Out of the Water, and in Habitat
0 - 20 ft. 100% O2

[O-ring]

Bottom Mix
10'-100' = EAN32 or 30/30
110'-150' = 21/35
160'-200' = 18/45
210'-250' = 15/55
260'-400' = 10/70

Deco Gas
20' = 100% o2
70' = EAN50
120' = 35/25
190' = 21/35

Backgas breaks are still recommended at 12 on - 6 off

[O-ring]

1. What does this mean for triox? Is triox just going to standardize on 18/35?

2. The WKPP gases state max o2 and min He. How much variation are we going to see in gases being used? Will people increase helium quite a bit above the min or stick to what the min value is?

[metridium]

Is this likely to affect the max depth permitted for Tech 1 students? Current is 150', which corresponds to the MOD for 21/35. Should Tech 1 now go to 190' on standardized 18/35?

[boomx5]

I thought the standard mix for the RecTriox class was 30/30. I'm wondering if it will change what type of mix we will be using for the class?

[Spectre]

That's a lot of deco for 20 mins @ 100!

[wb416]

metridium once bubbled...
Is this likely to affect the max depth permitted for Tech 1 students? Current is 150', which corresponds to the MOD for 21/35. Should Tech 1 now go to 190' on standardized 18/35?

I could see where it would still be prudent/valid for the student to gain experience in the 150' range rather than to 190' where mistakes/inefficiencies may be amplified due to increased gas consumption and deco obligations at depth.

Not a major change in ATA's, but given how problems can snowball, a small measure of conservatism may be better.

[dmdalton]

O-ring once bubbled...
1. What does this mean for triox? Is triox just going to standardize on 18/35?

2. The WKPP gases state max o2 and min He. How much variation are we going to see in gases being used? Will people increase helium quite a bit above the min or stick to what the min value is?

The Triox class was billed as a no staged deco class in the 0-120 (130?) recreational range in which the PPO2 was increased to give extened bottom times while the HE eliminated the narcosis. No deco gas (other than backgas) was utilized and no planned deco stops other than what is required for any dive, what some would call safety stops.

I would expect that this will not change.

Dave D

[ericfine50]

I think this will effect the Tech 1 and 2 classes. I don't think people would take a tech 1 class, that is good to 150 when the Triox class is good to 130.

Eric

[metridium]

As a prospective Tech 1 student, I can only say that I'd be much more inclined to take the class if it were 190' MOD, if that can be done safely. No surprise there, right?

150' doesn't seem like much for all the training and expense, at least at first glance, and especially if I have cave training first.

But I'm not a technical diver yet, so what do I know?

[Uncle Pug]

metridium once bubbled...
As a prospective Tech 1 student, I can only say that I'd be much more inclined to take the class if it were 190' MOD, if that can be done safely.
The Tech 1 class isn't about depth... it is about skills under task loading and knowledge of deco proceedures as taught by GUE.

The limiting factor for Tech 1 is the use of only one deco gas on a dive (O2 or EAN50.) Tech 2 adds bottles.

I suppose there are agencies that focus on depth.

[metridium]

Uncle Pug wrote...

The Tech 1 class isn't about depth... it is about skills under task loading and knowledge of deco proceedures as taught by GUE.

The limiting factor for Tech 1 is the use of only one deco gas on a dive (O2 or EAN50.) Tech 2 adds bottles. Should I infer that the extra 40' is enough to require the second deco gas?

[Uncle Pug]

metridium once bubbled...
Should I infer that the extra 40' is enough to require the second deco gas?
That would depend upon the size of the deco bottle, your SAC and the bottom time (hence deco time required.)

Again it isn't about the depth as much as the skills and proceedures.

That said, a bottom time of 20 minutes at 190' would probably require more than an AL40 of EAN50. Run a dive with your planning software and see what you get.

[MechDiver]

metridium once bubbled...
Should I infer that the extra 40' is enough to require the second deco gas?

Aside from what Pug already pointed out, two deco gases also give you more options to fine tune your deco and for lost gas bailouts; both of which are nice the deeper you go.

MD

[Uncle Pug]

....beside what MD said....

Here in the PNW OW there is definitely a limit to the time you want to spend in the water... especially just hanging out in deco.

You did some dives here Metridium... little chilly even at the 60 minute mark. :brrrrrrrr:

[metridium]

Uncle Pug wrote...
That said, a bottom time of 20 minutes at 190' would probably require more than an AL40 of EAN50. Run a dive with your planning software and see what you get. Vplanner shows a requirement of 26.6 cuft of 50%. Even if it were more than that, is it that much more difficult to use an AL80 instead of an AL40?

I'd assumed prior to this that the Tech 1 depth limit had been intended to correspond with the 21/35 MOD.

[MikeFerrara]

As far as the amount of gas that dive is more than doable on one decompression gas in a 40. All mine are 80's though.

Other agencies also progress from dives using two gasses to those that use three. They all have some depth cut-off but I wouldn't say Ive ever heard of any that "focus on depth". Everyone (students) gets too hung up on depth because they want a card that says they can go to X depth.

But back to the gasses I don't guess I would adopt their new gasses. The old ones were kind of nice though. Could you imagine my gas bill if I used 18/35 for all my shallow teaching dives.

I could see it now...Sign up for classes here $150/hour. LOL

I get teased all the time for diving mix above 200. If I was using it like above 50 people would be laughing so hard they would hurt theselves.

[metridium]

MechDiver wrote...
Aside from what Pug already pointed out, two deco gases also give you more options to fine tune your deco and for lost gas bailouts; both of which are nice the deeper you go.
I don't know anything about fine-tuning deco at this point, but I get your point about the lost gas.

On the other hand, Vplanner indicates backgas needed in a lost 50% situation would be 170 cuft, which is less than 2/3s of a cave-filled set of 104s. What's the likelihood of both divers losing their deco bottles?

[metridium]

Uncle Pug wrote
....beside what MD said....

Here in the PNW OW there is definitely a limit to the time you want to spend in the water... especially just hanging out in deco.

You did some dives here Metridium... little chilly even at the 60 minute mark. :brrrrrrrr: :D That's the truth, UP.

I've heard nice things about those deep reefs and wrecks in the Caribbean too, though.

;)

[cadet diver]

I would say depth is important though. The point for going to a deeper depth is to see cooler stuff. As far as wreck diving goes, there is a lot to see between 150-200 that I would like to see. You wouldnt be able to do those dives if 150 was your limit.

[MikeFerrara]

cadet diver once bubbled...
You wouldnt be able to do those dives if 150 was your limit.

Good. I don't want any crowds on all those great Lake Superior wrecks at 175. LOL The rest of you stay up at 150 and practice.

[Uncle Pug]

a 40 of EAN50 is sufficient for a 20 minute 190' dive... unless you are new/cold OW/shortfilled/doing longer stops at the O2 window/doing extra time at stops

For example... I recently read Jeff's Tech 1 report and on their 14 minutes at 150' dive (http://www.seanet.com/~katrinakruse/PB4Y%20details.htm) where they switched back to backgas because the deco gas got low.

Shane and I each take a 40 of EAN50 to 165' leaving plenty of margin.

[metridium]

Uncle Pug wrote...
Shane and I each take a 40 of EAN50 to 165' leaving plenty of margin. What are the endorsements on your Tech 1 card, Pug? Have you gone to Tech 2 yet?

[Uncle Pug]

metridium once bubbled...
What are the endorsements on your Tech 1 card, Pug? Have you gone to Tech 2 yet?
The card says... among other things 150'... but our final dive of the class was 165' and that is what we have limited ourselves to... so far.

No... we haven't taken the Tech 2 yet... probably next fall when Shane gets the time.

[wb416]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

For example... I recently read Jeff's Tech 1 report and on their 14 minutes at 150' dive (http://www.seanet.com/~katrinakruse/PB4Y%20details.htm) where they switched back to backgas because the deco gas got low.


Pug... have you ever documented your Tech 1 experience, and if so, is it available online?

[MikeFerrara]

None of my cards say anything about depth. I guess some agencies focus on depth more than others. LOL

[Uncle Pug]

wb416 once bubbled...
Pug... have you ever documented your Tech 1 experience, and if so, is it available online?
Not in the sense that others have reported their DIRf and Jeff his Tech 1 experience... though I have posted vignettes in threads here and there.

[MHK]

Scott, thanks for pointing me in the direction of this thread. I spoke to JJ earlier today and in light of the confusion JJ recently posted something to Quest to clear up the confusion.

In summary, we all agree on standardized mixes, but the variance WRT to WKPP projects and recreational sport diving will continue as it has been.

Here's a copy of JJ's post to Quest:

Hope this helps..

I think that a previous conversation I was having with George might have
precipitated some confusion. I was talking to him about 21% mixes near 190
but did not mean to indicate that this was a combination that we used in
GUE training. Our current mixes hold well and promote the same concepts as
those by the WKPP. Sometimes presenting tools such as standard mixes gets
lost in the translation, especially when people have a very different
system as a frame of reference. The principal of standard mixes shifts the
paradigm away from the industry norm, one in which divers choose a
mystical "best mix" and where O2 is usually too high and Helium too low.
Both GUE and WKPP mixes promote 1.2 or less with the emphasis on less for
any profiles of merit. One is always encouraged to raise Helium. GUE's
mixes are slightly more geared toward common profiles. WKPP mixes relate to
dives in which the greater depth and longer dives are the norm and where it
is of paramount importance that the mixes be low in oxygen and rich in
Helium. Both are saying the same thing. In the WKP a cave that is at 200'
will usually drop to at least 240 and can easily go deeper. Therefore,
being more "precise" (meaning that one ride close to the upper PO2 or
lower Helium limit) about one's mix can be a limiting and dangerous
factor. The 21/35 mix has a 150 max where we shift to 18/45, keeping the
O2 near 1.2. Dives that are mostly at the edge of a mix should use the next
deeper mix. It is not sensible to always ride on the edge and expect not to
get cut.
Best,
JJ

[O-ring]

I just saw that tonight myself. That definitely clears up the confusion.

[MikeFerrara]

O-ring once bubbled...
I just saw that tonight myself. That definitely clears up the confusion.

Speak for yourself. I wasn't confused. :D

[O-ring]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Speak for yourself. I wasn't confused. :D
That last email definitely cleared it up...I guess I am just another "dumb**** that just took a tec class".

[metridium]

Hey, you're one up on me at least.

:D

[MikeFerrara]

O-ring once bubbled...

That last email definitely cleared it up...I guess I am just another "dumb**** that just took a tec class".

My lack of confusion wasn't because I understood what they were doing and how it would effect their classes but rather because I don't care. LOL

I like the idea of standard mixes because it makes things so much simpler. But I'm not going to change my mixes because someone else changes theirs. That would, at least temporarily defeat the purpose of ever having had standard mixes in the first place. If you keep changing it it isn't standard is it.