Scuba thieves and liars

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RonzoTheGreat

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I'm usually in the northeast of the U.S.
call me crazy but i am pretty disgusted with the lack of morals and ethics in our lovely hobby/profession/sport/pastime.

why is it (do you think) very few if any, in the industry, respect morals and ethics when it comes to stealing other company's ideas? it's nothing new, but as i looked into it, seems like there weren't many threads on it or discussions about it.

you dont have to look far ... look at anyone's back plate, or:
hollis vs oceanic or
halcyon vs salvo or
countless others

please dont chime in to give me the 2 cents about how barry has been to court about it, or hollis used to work for oceanic, thats not my point ... but i spoke to a "little guy" a few weeks ago who designed a beautiful set of spring heels awhile back and some thief actually contacted him and asked him for a sample to "carry his line" .... than proceeded to COPY the springs exactly to a "T" and produce their own. (the guy never even paid for the set he copied) he went on to explain to me that patents and copyrights in our industry are so costly and time consuming (and for the slight overhead and productivity of such and item) that it usually is not worth going through with it such protection...

more examples are masks ... holy moly .... look at how many versions of the genesis panview there are (who even knows who was first)

i'm also aware of how pat duffy designed what he feels (and will prove to you) is a "tougher material" on his wing

or tobin changes the shape of his wing

or jj claims this or that about tacoing on their wings ....

great, and thats fine to go and decide to produce "your own" product .... but where and why dont other industry leaders draw a line on how similar things can be ....

thank goodness some of them take customer service to another level to make up for similar products with better service (like the LDS vs website debate)

*NOTE-DISCLAIMER* i happen to like oxycheq, dss, and halcyon and feel their products are great, and not close enough to each other to be considered a "rip-off." the reason they were mentioned is to negate people using those reasons to answer my original idea of copying (tobin, pat, and jj have valid points with those mentioned arguments) .... and they should be the ones complaining about this idea first and foremost since their stuff is also stolen by others ...
 
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call me crazy but i am pretty disgusted with the lack of morals and ethics in our lovely hobby/profession/sport/pastime.

why is it (do you think) very few if any, in the industry, respect morals and ethics when it comes to stealing other company's ideas? it's nothing new, but as i looked into it, seems like there weren't many threads on it or discussions about it.

you dont have to look far ... look at anyone's back plate, or:
hollis vs oceanic or
halcyon vs salvo or
countless others

please dont chime in to give me the 2 cents about how barry has been to court about it, or hollis used to work for oceanic, thats not my point ... but i spoke to a "little guy" a few weeks ago who designed a beautiful set of spring heels awhile back and some thief actually contacted him and asked him for a sample to "carry his line" .... than proceeded to COPY the springs exactly to a "T" and produce their own. (the guy never even paid for the set he copied) he went on to explain to me that patents and copyrights in our industry are so costly and time consuming (and for the slight overhead and productivity of such and item) that it usually is not worth going through with it such protection...

more examples are masks ... holy moly .... look at how many versions of the genesis panview there are (who even knows who was first)

i'm also aware of how pat duffy designed what he feels (and will prove to you) is a "tougher material" on his wing

or tobin changes the shape of his wing

or halcyon claims this or that about tacoing on their wings ....

great, and thats fine to go and decide to produce "your own" product .... but where and why dont other industry leaders draw a line on how similar things can be ....

thank goodness some of them take customer service to another level to make up for similar products with better service (like the LDS vs website debate)

*NOTE-DISCLAIMER* i happen to like oxycheq, dss, and halcyon and feel their products are great, and not close enough to each other to be considered a "rip-off." the reason they were mentioned is to negate people using those reasons to answer my original idea of copying (tobin, pat, and halcyon have valid points with those mentioned arguments) .... and they should be the ones complaining about this idea first and foremost since their stuff is also stolen by others ...

Don't get in a twist too quickly. First, Nick Hollis has a dad....is name is Bob Hollis. He owns Oceanic. So, nothing was stolen. They are simply different brand names of the same family business. As to regulators, most of the companies who sell "identical" regulators didn't design or make them in the first place....the purchase the product and "brand" them as they please. On the panview mask issue, there is a good reason why 10 brand have the same mask.....they all buy them from the same Chinese designer and supplier.

Tobin, Patrick, and JJ do innovate. But, they would need to be forgiven if you feel that they "copy" one another. There are limited ways you can design a backplate. Each are simply adding their innovation and their "touch" to the product.

Oh, trust me.....when you see two masks, or two regulators, or two anything that you think is "identical", it is likely that NEITHER is stealing....they are just buying.

Phil Ellis
Discount Scuba Gear at DiveSports.com - Buy Scuba Diving Equipment & Snorkeling Equipment


Phil Ellis
Discount Scuba Gear at DiveSports.com - Buy Scuba Diving Equipment & Snorkeling Equipment
 
why is it (do you think) very few if any, in the industry, respect morals and ethics when it comes to stealing other company's ideas?

Ooh, oooh. I know. :bounce4: Oooh. It's money, right. Ooh, oooh. Is it money?
 
I was sitting on a plane next to an aircraft designer several years ago, and we were talking about the then new(ish) F-18 Hornet. The conversation swung around to the Russian counterpart...Mig-29 perhaps? Anyway, we were discussing how the dimensions of the two were practically identical. When I intimated some suspicions on how the Soviets arrived at the design he said something smart (Lord knows I don't do much of that):
"The Soviets have physicists too." A good design is just a good design. I'm sure theft occurs, but for some reason this antecdote sprang to miind.
 
You mean like how the Chrysler's look like Bentley's and how in the 80's all cars looked alike. What about fins? How many variations is enough. As for masks except for one or two companies there are 2 or 3 large companies that make ALL the masks and snorkels for many companies. They just put a sticker on it that says seaview, scubamax, genesis, etc. As for your Hollis/ Oceanic comparison there is none. THey are all one company- just different divisions Hollis, Aeris, Oceanic. Nobody "used to work" for one or the other. Ideas get shared and decisions are made based on product and target market. Patents are expensive and tough to get. Copyrights are a little easier to prove. Just need to keep records of everything with dates and if possible some type of independent confirmation. The net makes that easier and tougher. If I publish a work and people say make a print of that for their own use and then someone comes along a year later and steals it I can have a pretty good case if it's word for word. I have proof that I produced earlier. The spring straps are another issue. Nothing prevents me from making a set just like everyone else's and selling them if there's no patent. Even if there were, I could add a cord, a cover, or modify it in some way and unless the holder covered every conceivable modification there was it would be hard to prove it was a stolen idea. How many people have springs? How hard would it be to copy them? As long as something works, people will make copies and try to sell it. It's called capitalism and in the free world it works. Who wins is determined by how good their marketing is.
 
I agree with "scubkevdm"...only to take it a step further; welcome to the manufactures world. Could you imagine is someone EVER question the patent legistics on the the "wheel". WOW! That's just as much of a conversation piece if we would spell dog - "CAT". Like RikRaeder said MONEY!
 
It's all good...copy and improve on it. 50 million Chinese can't be wrong :)
 
please dont chime in to give me the 2 cents about how barry has been to court about it, or hollis used to work for oceanic, thats not my point ... but i spoke to a "little guy" a few weeks ago who designed a beautiful set of spring heels awhile back and some thief actually contacted him and asked him for a sample to "carry his line" .... than proceeded to COPY the springs exactly to a "T" and produce their own. (the guy never even paid for the set he copied) he went on to explain to me that patents and copyrights in our industry are so costly and time consuming (and for the slight overhead and productivity of such and item) that it usually is not worth going through with it such protection...

A Patent grants a monopoly for a limited period of time on the manufacture,use and sale of an invention. These rights last between 14 and 20 years, depending on the type of invention. Patents do have some costs involved and they can be time consuming, However, small inventors can include a declaration asking for a reduction in the filing fee.

Copyrights apply to expressive arts such as novels,fine and graphic arts,music,phonorecords,photography,software,video,cinema,and choreography.

Important... copyright protection comes into exsistence when the protected work is created, but , that degree of protection can be influenced by later events.
Registration is less that a hundred dollars.

Ronzo.. it sounds like "someone" tugged on your heart strings.

The info I just gave is easy to find if you just look.:)
 
Ronzo.. it sounds like "someone" tugged on your heart strings.

The info I just gave is easy to find if you just look.:)

yeah ... they did ... the "little guy with the springs" is a good person and not a young one either ... a grandfather actually ... he also happens to be an amazing designer and producer of reels as well. ironically, his reels are one of the most popular amongst northeast wreck and southeast cave divers .... when he explained what happened i was a bit surprised but more angry .... i see all of your point ... fact of the matter is there is nothing i, or anyone else, can do about it. it is just accepted and thats that .... so i guess ill not whine about it ...

and to reiterate, jj, pat, and tobin have done a fine job, their names were mentioned as examples of why designs can be similar and fair (but NOT the same)
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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