Type 2 vs. Type 1 hit

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pengwe

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In the thread about which deco stops to miss, a few people said they would keep the deep stops and shorten the shallow ones, because the CNS system is a fast-loading tissue, that will clear on the deep stops. The aim is to avoid a CNS hit.

Elsewhere I have read that the notion of 'tissues' is purely theoretical, and the phrase 'tissue compartments' should not be taken as referring to specific kinds of tissue in the body.

So now I'm confused - can anyone clarify things for me?
 
In the thread about which deco stops to miss, a few people said they would keep the deep stops and shorten the shallow ones, because the CNS system is a fast-loading tissue, that will clear on the deep stops. The aim is to avoid a CNS hit.

Elsewhere I have read that the notion of 'tissues' is purely theoretical, and the phrase 'tissue compartments' should not be taken as referring to specific kinds of tissue in the body.

So now I'm confused - can anyone clarify things for me?

Most any aspect of decompression theory is theoretical and specifically the concept of "compartments" is theoretical. Compartments are a construct modeling what is thought to go on in the body but there is no direct correlation between a certain bodily tissue and a specific compartment.

I won't comment on which stop to shorten (deep or shallow). I'm sure you will get a more detailed answer as this thread progresses.
 
In the thread about which deco stops to miss, a few people said they would keep the deep stops and shorten the shallow ones, because the CNS system is a fast-loading tissue, that will clear on the deep stops. The aim is to avoid a CNS hit.

Elsewhere I have read that the notion of 'tissues' is purely theoretical, and the phrase 'tissue compartments' should not be taken as referring to specific kinds of tissue in the body.

So now I'm confused - can anyone clarify things for me?

A lot of people on Scubaboard tends to forget that the theory is only theory.

The mountains of data and evidence show however that it is best to follow prescribed decompression plans as closely as possible without variance.

You avoid CNS tox by (1) planning your O2 exposure properly and (2) taking 5 min "air" breaks every 15 mins while on pure O2. Even though most divers do not bring "air" with them on technical dives, there is normally a mix in the range of 20% or 21% oxygen which works suitably as if air, or else backgas works fine too.

This however has nothing to do with a "type 1 vs type 2" hit.

Type 1 means flu-like symptoms related to DCS.

Type 2 means pain or paralysis related to DCS.

CNS Ox Tox is neither a Type 1 nor Type 2 hit in the common vernacular. CNS Ox Tox is "toxing" or "a CNS hit."

Your deep stops are normally of 1 min duration. A deep stop is normally any stop on back-gas. Longer than this and you are simply taking on too much additional nitrogen and helium. Shorter than this and you are exceeding the 2:1 decompression gradient tolerance of body fluids and tissues.

Your helitrox stops are normally 2 to 3 mins.

Your nitrox stops are normally 3 to 5 mins.

Your 100% O2 time is then whatever it takes to establish a tissue gradient to allow you to surface within the 2:1 safety ratio. But however long you are breathing 100% O2, you should switch every 15 mins to TMX 21/XX or TMX 20/XX for 5 mins, or whatever backgas you have brought with you.

Do not ever shortcut prescribed deco stops or shorten the times.:no:
 
Even though most divers do not bring "air" with them on technical dives, there is normally a mix in the range of 20% or 21% oxygen which works suitably as if air, or else backgas works fine too

To clarify: are you referring to trimix with that oxygen ratio?


Do not ever shortcut prescribed deco stops or shorten the times.:no:

I think the thread the OP is talking about covers the 'if you have to miss a stop (eg low air/emergency), which stop is it LESS dangerous to miss/shorten' scenario?
 
...
I think the thread the OP is talking about covers the 'if you have to miss a stop (eg low air/emergency), which stop is it LESS dangerous to miss/shorten' scenario?

If you ended up in that situation then the redundancy and the contingency planning was pizz poor.

Basically it should never happen.

Ever.:no:

Hopefully your buddy would be a better planner, then, and have enough deco mix or backgas to share.

I normally bring twice as much deco mix as I need, and rule of thirds on the backgas.
 
If you ended up in that situation then the redundancy and the contingency planning was pizz poor.

Basically it should never happen.

Ever.:no:

Hopefully your buddy would be a better planner, then, and have enough deco mix or backgas to share.

I normally bring twice as much deco mix as I need, and rule of thirds on the backgas.

This was one thing drilled into us during my Adv. Nitrox & Decompression Procedures course I just took a few weeks ago. Plan, plan, plan & then be ready with the contingency plans:D.
 
Basically it should never happen.

Ever.:no:

That's great. Neither should OOA or a bunch of other stuff

But IF it does, I'd like to know what to do

Anyway, that's a topic for the other thread :wink:
 
Elsewhere I have read that the notion of 'tissues' is purely theoretical, and the phrase 'tissue compartments' should not be taken as referring to specific kinds of tissue in the body.

Attached is an image by Marv (aka Saturation) from an older thread on another board.

Tissues are purely theoretical but can be generally related to some specific areas of the body. In the image, Brain and CNS (fast tissues) are at the top and bone (slowest tissue) is at the bottom. This theoretical break down is based on factors in the organs pictured (such as blood flow, capillary density, prior research observations, etc.). In fact there is no real way to break things down so neatly and/ or clearly in the body but it used to give some "meaning" to the terms if one can relate fast absorption and elimination with CNS tissues or slow absorption and elimination with bone, etc.

Does this help frame your understanding a little better?

One last thought...
"Generally, the theories we believe we call facts, and the facts we disbelieve we call theories" -- Felix Cohen :D
 

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In the thread about which deco stops to miss, a few people said they would keep the deep stops and shorten the shallow ones, because the CNS system is a fast-loading tissue, that will clear on the deep stops. The aim is to avoid a CNS hit.

Elsewhere I have read that the notion of 'tissues' is purely theoretical, and the phrase 'tissue compartments' should not be taken as referring to specific kinds of tissue in the body.

So now I'm confused - can anyone clarify things for me?

The reason we use mathematical modeling when discussing DCS is because the underlying causes of DCS are complex, dynamic, and not completely understood. What we do have a reasonable handle on is the risk factors and the symptoms. The concept of "fast tissues" vs "slow tissues" really only serves to describe the manner in which various parts of our body absorb and dispel dissolved gases ... and those will vary from day to day and dive to dive. In effect, our body is about as complex as the weather, and as difficult to predict how it's going to behave on any given day. Mathematical models only serve to help us descibe the process in ways that we can relate to.

A lot of people on Scubaboard tends to forget that the theory is only theory.

The mountains of data and evidence show however that it is best to follow prescribed decompression plans as closely as possible without variance.
Only for those who don't understand what they're doing. Those decompression plans are nothing more than mathematical models based on a set of assumptions that may or may not apply to a given individual. People who tech dive regularly (and DO understand what they're doing) will use those decompression plans as a starting point, and will adjust them on subsequent dives based on how they feel after a given dive. Most deco plans will allow you to modify the ascent profile simply by adding or subtracting a "conservatism" factor. Choosing a conservatism factor is completely a matter of understanding both your own body and your general predispositions to risk (e.g. age, fitness, physical state on the day of the dive, cold water, etc.).

You avoid CNS tox by (1) planning your O2 exposure properly and (2) taking 5 min "air" breaks every 15 mins while on pure O2. Even though most divers do not bring "air" with them on technical dives, there is normally a mix in the range of 20% or 21% oxygen which works suitably as if air, or else backgas works fine too.

This however has nothing to do with a "type 1 vs type 2" hit.

Type 1 means flu-like symptoms related to DCS.

Type 2 means pain or paralysis related to DCS.

CNS Ox Tox is neither a Type 1 nor Type 2 hit in the common vernacular. CNS Ox Tox is "toxing" or "a CNS hit."
Symptoms for a Type 1 or Type 2 hit are variable, and will depend on both the affected type of tissue and the severity of the blockage.

Basically a Type 1 hit is one that affects muscles or joints. The most common symptom will be excessive fatigue, pain or tingling. Depending on where the hit takes place and the severity of it, symptoms can also be flu-like symptoms, dizziness, coughing or skin rashes.

Type 2 hits are affect areas of our pulmonary, circulatory or nervous systems (those areas in our body that will absorb, diffuse, and dispel absorbed gases the quickest). These are far more serious and more difficult to treat than Type 1 hits, which is why you want to avoid them if at all possible. Symptoms can be anything from shortness of breath, lost of muscle control, convulsions, paralysis, unconsciousness, or death.

The primary reason we want to do deep stops is because our lungs will act as a pretty effective "bubble trap", reducing the risk of this type of DCS if we allow it to operate within the parameters it was designed for. Stopping for a minute or so at deeper depths gives our pulmonary and circulatory systems a chance to "catch up" and release the dispelled gases in a manner they're designed to handle before we move upward, which will increase the offgasing rate with reduced pressure.

Your deep stops are normally of 1 min duration. A deep stop is normally any stop on back-gas. Longer than this and you are simply taking on too much additional nitrogen and helium. Shorter than this and you are exceeding the 2:1 decompression gradient tolerance of body fluids and tissues.

Your helitrox stops are normally 2 to 3 mins.

Your nitrox stops are normally 3 to 5 mins.

Your 100% O2 time is then whatever it takes to establish a tissue gradient to allow you to surface within the 2:1 safety ratio. But however long you are breathing 100% O2, you should switch every 15 mins to TMX 21/XX or TMX 20/XX for 5 mins, or whatever backgas you have brought with you.
Your stops should be purely based on the depth and bottom time of your dive. You should also consider any predisposing factors, such as those mentioned previously, by having a basic understanding of how they can reduce your body's ability to offgas effectively.

Do not ever shortcut prescribed deco stops or shorten the times.:no:
Unless, of course, the alternative is worse than DCS. A couple things that would cause me to decide the risk of DCS was worth it would be drowning or extreme hypothermia (e.g. you flooded your drysuit and are starting to shiver to the point where you're in danger of losing muscle control).

All of the above is, of course, a simplification ... but adequate for most divers.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Type 1 means flu-like symptoms related to DCS.

Type 2 means pain or paralysis related to DCS.

Thank you, Bob, for clarifying and correcting the above misinformation.
 
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