Air?

[tcarr53]

The Friday edition of the Ottawa Sun Page 4 has some eye opening news, remember the post several months ago? Stay tuned more to come, hope all the stores are up to the provincial standard!
www.ottawasun.com Article reads"Protective gear fails firefighters"

[seahunter]

I have filled the SCBA units for several fire departments for many years and done a lot of their tank service work too.
It may be hard to believe but, while the fighters are very cautious when dealing with the public, they have often had a cavalier attitude about their own gear.
Recently the new captain of a volunteer dept brought their tanks to me to be cleaned and painted. They had not been tested in many years. He didn't even know that they had to be hydro tested nor that they should be visually examined as well.
This article in the Ottawa Sun should certainly upset their fighters but really doesn't affect SCUBA divers much as our air and tanks have been the object of rigorous standards and testing for a long time.
It was very common at one time but I've not heard of a 'bad' air incident in a long, long time.

[Bubble Boy]

seahunter once bubbled...
I have filled the SCBA units for several fire departments for many years and done a lot of their tank service work too.
It may be hard to believe but, while the fighters are very cautious when dealing with the public, they have often had a cavalier attitude about their own gear.
Recently the new captain of a volunteer dept brought their tanks to me to be cleaned and painted. They had not been tested in many years. He didn't even know that they had to be hydro tested nor that they should be visually examined as well.
This article in the Ottawa Sun should certainly upset their fighters but really doesn't affect SCUBA divers much as our air and tanks have been the object of rigorous standards and testing for a long time.
It was very common at one time but I've not heard of a 'bad' air incident in a long, long time.
Bad air is still common in dive shops in Ontario. NFPA requires eddy current testing and in another thread you mentioned that you got rid of your unit. Dive shop staff is not trained in the standards for SCBA and that is just one of many reasons why Ontario dive shops should not touch SCBA in the first place.

[bottles]

Did an internet search on this and found a page
www.ontariodiver.com/sales.htm shows a listing of testing and accredited air stations that are approved for divers and fire departments. To the new standards for breathing air.

[taz22]

bottles once bubbled...
Did an internet search on this and found a page
www.ontariodiver.com/sales.htm shows a listing of testing and accredited air stations that are approved for divers and fire departments. To the new standards for breathing air.

must not be publicized very well, a number of properly accrediated air stations ( my own personal knowledge for having seen the proper paper work ) are not on this list.

[seahunter]

May I respectfully suggest that until very recently, many fire departments would not have had air for fighting fires were it not for some dive shops. While an untrained scuba store owner should not consider servicing SCBA, the training is not much different than for scuba. In fact, Bill High of PSI Inc. includes the inspecting of SCBA units in the PSI course.
I learned to service SCBA tanks, valves and regulators a long time ago. It was never done to make money but to provide a service to the fire department. Most now have their own compressers and get the manufacturer to sevice the gear and that's just fine by me. It was interesting a few years back when the Richmond Hill fire department replaced a lot of their old 2150 psi Scott bottles with 4500 psi bottles but couldn't fill them. I did it for them for about 1 1/2 years until they had their new compressor.
Generally you're right in saying that dive shop staff should not service SCBA under the assumption they are the same as scuba.

I have seen nothing from the NFPA to indicate that Vis Ed is required. If so, it would be an interesting situation since the manufacturer does not require it. Generally for liability reasons the NFPA will not step outside the requirements of the manufacturer. Most SCBA bottles that I've seen are not aluminum or, if they are, do not fall into the category for which Vis Ed might be suggested.
I got rid of my Vis Ed because it did nothing for the safety of the divers. I wasn't prepared to charge for a service that was bogus!

The list on the small scuba club's web site is hardly definitive bubbles. First the list is only for the few local stores in their area and second the standards the club has chosen to use or is required to follow by virtue of their relationship to the forces do not apply to dive stores that supply breathing air for scuba divers.
Currently there is no 'list' of approved air stations since no single body 'approves' air stations. It is the responsibility of each individual air station to ensure the quality of it's air and it can use any registered testing service it likes. Therefore you need to see the certificate posted (or ask for it if it's not posted). You can then see the date and the quality of the air you're getting. A proper air certificate shows the required CSA Breathing Air Standards and also shows the air station's standards so you can compare them. There is no other way nor any other 'list'.

If in fact bad air is still common in dive shops in Ontario may I make two suggestions?
1. Give us their names so we can alert the store and the divers. If you are aware of dive stores giving bad air and DON'T alert the divers you may find yourself liable. Certainly you're no friend of the divers! If you've not the stomach to tell us publicly, call the Ministry of Labor and do it anonymously. It's a crummy thing to do but it's better for you to act cowardly than not act at all.
I certainly hope your statement that 'bad air is common in dive shops in Ontario' is not simply alarmist. I'm painfully aware of the tragedies resulting from such McCarthiestic comments in the past and have no use for someone trying to make a name for themselves at someone else's expense.
Speak up or shut up!
2. Scuba instructors are not doing their job. New divers should be aware of how to check for good air at a store as described above.

[pufferfish]

Seahunter,

Since you have been on the dive scene for a few years do you know or recommend any CO monitors available for testing air? There was one product available a few years back by Seaway Engineering but they seem to have gone belly up. I was hoping to find a reliable, portable, and quantitative device. Not so much for testing air in Ontario but in Central America usually off the beaten path. Were the previous ones just too expensive or unreliable such that they have disappeared off the market?

Thanks,
Puffer

[tcarr53]

I think you maybe wrong SeaHunter, there is a provincial standard set out by the Ministry of Labour.
All air suppliers who provide air for their staff whether paid or not must meet the standard which is CSA Z 180.1 unless your air is tested by an accredited lab who can test to these standards you are breaking provincial labour laws, these laws do not apply to only those who are commercial dive operations.
If the air certificate you have doesn't say it meets or exceeds z180.1 then in this province if you the owner or your instuctional staff are using that air you are breaking the law!
I don't think anyone on this board are foolish enough to think a scuba shop provides approvred air for staff and different air for customers, the Z180.1 tests are expensive and stricter than standards set out by Padi or the American standard.
Also in the article it clearly states that some of the contamination may have come from outside providers who claim to have air that passes one test or another, but when some samples were obtained for independant testing they failed the basic air test and were no where near meeting z180.1
Also for your own knowledge SeaHunter the F.S.A.C. is a very large club with probably between 250-300 members.

[SneakyB'tard]

It would be easier for you (TCARR53) to post the links to these statutes and legislations for your opposition to see.

"It was very common at one time but I've not heard of a 'bad' air incident in a long, long time."

- we should be all educated enough by now to know that some ailments and symptoms of "bad air" are not immediate but long term. Because of this, bad air is usually not pegged as the cause of the ailment.


If you are aware of the legislation you are culpable.

"The rule that you are to love your neighbour becomes in law, you must not injure your neighbour. You must take reasonable care to avoid acts or ommisions which you can reasonably foresee would be likely to injure your neighbour." (Donoghue vs. Stevenson, Cdn Case Law.)

"Negligence is the omission to do something which a reasonable man, guided upon those considerations which ordinarily regulate the conduct of human affairs, would do, or doing something which a prudent and reasonable man would not do. The defendants might have been liable for negligence, if, unintentionally, they omitted to do that which a reasonable person would have done, or did that which a person taking reasonable precautions would not have done."

Criminal Negligence
Criminal negligence
219. (1) Every one is criminally negligent who

(a) in doing anything, or

(b) in omitting to do anything that it is his duty to do,

shows wanton or reckless disregard for the lives or safety of other persons.

Definition of "duty"
(2) For the purposes of this section, "duty" means a duty imposed by law

- This string always brings up loud defenders of their actions...this is due to the old saying a guilty man puts forward the loudest case.

[pufferfish]

I dug out my old DAN Diver Alert magazines (they were a lot nicer in design back then) and found the article on CO
detectors written by Robert Rossier the ex-NASA and US Navy engineer. "Divine Intervention" Alert Diver May/June
1998.

I remember being quite amazed at some of the quotes in that article. For example, "According to Bob Laughlin, lab director
at Lawrence Factor Inc. in Miami Lakes, Fla., about 5 to 8 percent of the 700 to 800 air station samples tested a month show
CO in the 10 to 20 ppm range, and a few show levels in the 100 to 200 ppm. Another major test facility, TRI Environmental
Inc./Compressed Air Laboratory in Austin, Texas tests about 1,000 air samples a month and reports 6 percent of their
samples contain CO at more than 10 ppm.
Although not required by law in most states, most air stations in the USA submit to quarterly testing for carbon monoxide and
other contaminants, but what happens between tests is anybody's guess."

I find those numbers a little worrisome and those are in a litigious country where the incentive to provide clean air should
be very high. As the author points out we have no idea as to the scope of the problem as "air isn't routinely tested in diving
injury investigations."

Are Ontario shops obliged to get their air checked for CO quarterly? Can we ask to see these tests?

Can anybody recommend a CO monitor that I can take on my next trip to Nicaragua?

[SneakyB'tard]

I have used these before and like them very much. They are used for industry, but are very accurate and mulitfunctional.

http://www.crs.on.ca/gas_detection.html
http://www.gasmonitors.com/main.cfm?page=item1

[pufferfish]

Sneaky,
One of those handheld devices would be great and exactly what the doctor ordered if there was a way to attach it to my inflator hose. When you say you have used them in what capacity was this, SCUBA?

Thanks Puffer

[SneakyB'tard]

I have used them for HAZMAT and Confined space work.

I have used one to analyse my air but by freeflowing the tank a bit with the sensor by the valve. It is still excellent and that method does not affect the results.Just don't test it near anything that would tamper the results(running car, some Mcdonalds restaurants)

It will not attach to your BCD though.It is solely for ambient pressures.

[pufferfish]

Interesting thought of just sticking the CO device intake in the mouthpiece and pushing the purge a bit. Have you come across any bad air in the SCUBA setting? If so what reading did you get and what did you do about it? I believe the upper limit of normal for CO in this setting is 10 ppm.

[pufferfish]

What does a single gas handheld CO monitor cost?

Found the answer on the web site $375 US or $560 CDN.
Maybe if I bought one then I could charge two bucks to check people's tanks on dive trips and charters :D

[KEV49]

I find it amazing that every time this topic comes up there are those out there who seem to beleive that just because a store has an air certificate hanging on the wall that they met the standards. The way I understand it is if the test meets CSAZ180 the certificate will state that it meets this requirement and was tested by a Canadian accredited lab.
In all the dive shops I have visited I have seen this certificate once!
If scuba shop owners don't care about the quality of air they or their staff breathe, they sure don't care about the air they sell the public.

[Bubble Boy]

pufferfish once bubbled...
Interesting thought of just sticking the CO device intake in the mouthpiece and pushing the purge a bit. Have you come across any bad air in the SCUBA setting? If so what reading did you get and what did you do about it? I believe the upper limit of normal for CO in this setting is 10 ppm.

The Cdn standard is 5ppm for CO (and standards are minimal acceptable limit so 10 is just plain old bad)

[seahunter]

I'm still waiting for a clarification on your very clear allegation that "bad air is common in dive stores in Ontario" bubbleboy. At the very least satisfy my curiosity about how you know the air is not good.

I'm not disputing that it may be true. I'm simply not aware of any and insist that, if you know of some, that you 'fess up in the interest of the divers and the sport!
You supply the details to me whether here or privately and I'll take it from there.

We are one of the few dive stores that have a continuous, in-line moisture and CO monitor. It is a standard unit from global. It is not quantitative. It simply indicates the presence of either above a set level.

Diver units are available as you've seen Puffer, but are not inexpensive. You probably do not need a continuous monitor but perhaps just a means of testing an air sample before using that supplier. That can be accomplished with a simple and affordable Draeger style sensor available from Acklands or other gas analyser outlets.

Tcarr, you've mis-interpreted my reply to bubble. There is no approved list for dive store air stations and no single body to make such a list. Of course there is a standard for breathing air that applies to all breathing air applications but no one produces a list of the dive stores that meet those standards. That's what I meant. Each store must ensure his air meets the standard and each user (diver) must ensure that store he frequents has the current air test certificate posted and that the air meets the standards. The OUC used to provide a list but even it was not definitive. First it included only those stores that were OUC members and second it included only those that had their air tested by the OUC. I don't think the list exists any more and the OUC testing program has not been practical for most modern, busy stores for some time.
It is interesting and you're right about the Ontario regulations which state an owner must provide accredited air for staff but not for customers. That is, if the air does not meet standards, the MOL will investigate if an employee complains but NOT if a consumer complains. Your premise is right however. If the air is good for the staff it is good for the consumer.
Regardless, the air must be tested and the certificate should be posted.
BTW, PADI does not publish air standards but relies on the CGA breathing air standards.

I certainly did not mean to insult the FSAC. With that many members they may have one of the largest clubs in Ontario. May I put it in perspective? We train close to 2000 divers per year. My compressor fills in the area of 5000 tanks a year.
My comment regarding the FSAC simply wanted to point out that their 'list of approved air stations' represents a tiny fraction of the dive stores in Ontario that supply good, clean, air. I did not want anyone to think that their list is THE list of pure air stations. Even as their own site states it is a list of local (seahunter) dive stores who have submitted a sample to the club for their approval.
I think that is an accurate interpretation and apologize if I offended anyone at FSAC.

I'm not even sure you need to be aware of the legislation sneaky. Whether or not a dive store operator has read or even knows there is legislation does not absolve him of a responsibility to protect the public. I cannot believe that a dive store operator would think the regular testing of his air was not required whether by law, moral conscience or common sense. If it's safe to assume he is a diver before becoming a store owner it's safe to assume he is aware of the importance of good air.
Bottom line is that he MUST ensure his air is OK!

Puffers concerns are quite legitimate. Generally it was and is practiced that air stations get their air tested annually. It is required for PADI 5 Star status that the air be tested quarterly. The possibility of getting air that does not meet standards between tests does exist. It's simply not possible or feasible to test every fill. Air tests cost about $90US on a volume contract ($150CDN) if done by an accredited lab. We use the facility mentioned in Austin, Texas simply because they are recognized as one of the top in North America and it costs even more. We also change our filters long before their due date. Filters are rated on the amount of air that has passed through them and many owners will let them stay in until they've reached their limit. That may be OK but I personally don't like 'may'. A particularly hot day with high humidity and poor incoming air (smog) or a compressor that's overheating can push a filter beyond it's limits. Each filter change costs about $180.
And air fills are FREE at our dive center!!

Not only can you ask for the test results puffer, but they should be posted for everyone to see! Check the date of the test too.
You and Kev should change dive stores!

And that brings me all the way around to my original suggestion that, while the store owners are responsible, the diver has an obligation to check to ensure the store owner is meeting his responsibility.

Look for the certificate!! If it's not there or if you suspect the air is bad do something about it for your own sake and for other divers (bubble - this is where you jump in with the names of the stores that you say do not have good air!)

[pufferfish]

Thanks Seahunter for your reply which I appreciate. Bubbleboy's statement about air in Ontario is of concern if it is to be considered factual. Hopefully he will follow your advice and report if he is aware of bad air somewhere in this province.

As pointed out in that DAN article though the very lab where you send your samples reports that 6 percent of the samples sent to them have greater than 10 ppm of carbon monoxide in the samples. They do not state what concentration above 10 ppm but the other lab has had several up to 200 ppm, twenty times the allowable limit. I still find it amazing that these numbers are from fill stations in North America not Central America. One wonders when an airfill station receives a report showing a concentration of 200 ppm what happens? I don't suspect Tri Environmental is obliged to report the bad air to any federal authority and the onus is probably on the air station to rectify the problem. We saw what happened in Walkerton when the government got out of the monitoring business for drinking water. We trusted town employees and private labs to act in good conscience when bad results showed up, and what we got was incompetence and fraudulence. The quality of compressed air in a scuba tank is probably more important than one's drinking water.

As Sneaky pointed out many of the symptoms of CO poisoning may be mild and mimick other conditions (seasickness) or may not manifest until late in the dive if the concentration is low. All of these might allow an underestimation of the problem of contaminated air. Where are those 5 percent of fills in North America with CO levels greater than 10 ppm and a few as high as 200 ppm? Hopefully not in Ontario.

Thanks for the Draeger info. I will call them tomorrow and see what their little handheld unit costs. This is the unit I saw a few years back and is exactly what I was looking for, but they don't seem to exist anymore.

CO Monitor (http://www.skin-diver.com/departments/gearingup/tanks/AirGuard.asp?theID=374)

[Bubble Boy]

seahunter once bubbled...
I'm still waiting for a clarification on your very clear allegation that "bad air is common in dive stores in Ontario" bubbleboy. At the very least satisfy my curiosity about how you know the air is not good.


I have spoken with the shop owners where I know of bad air and I have notified the ministry of labour. You know Fred H., (he has worked on your compressor) ask him about the situation.

Divers, like you said, should look for the air certificate posted on the wall.

PADI 5 star facilities doing quarterly testing may happen in the states but is far from the norm in Canada. If Randy tells you differently then he is not being honest. Check out some of the shops to the north of you and see.

[pufferfish]

Bubbleboy you are do be commended highly if you know of situations where a shop may be knowingly or unknowingly providing bad air to divers and you have reported this to the Ministry of Labor. It is nice to hear someone has a good conscience these days,...ok SH even I can get cynical sometimes :)

Tell me when a shop does order an air quality test and it shows say 30 ppm of CO does that result remain private between the lab and the air fill station or in the commercial air fill setting is the testing lab obliged to report (like the new water quality reporting guidelines here require) the abnormal result to a government ministry? In other words I would hope divers do not have to worry about the Stan Koebel's of the world working in the dive business and not reporting or acting on bad lab results.

I am sorry but I don't trust some two bit scuba store owner in TimbuKtu who is having financial trouble, drinking, and going through a divorce to necessarily recognize the seriousness of having a CO reading of say 20 ppm. Give that air to a smoker (already have elevated blood CO levels) and send him on a deep dive and one might have a dive accident of 'unknown cause'.

So a PADI 5 star centre is supposed to get quarterly testing but no one checks up on this? Why doesn't PADI require the quarterly tests be sent to them directly from the lab?

Seahunter it is not the shops like yours that I am worried about receiving bad air from (why don't all shops have in line CO monitors by law), but those small ones I know nothing about both here in Ontario it seems, and in Central America where I have no way of knowing the CO concentration in a fill. My only protection against this is to place my faith in someone else's honesty like Ontarians did with their water quality testing when it appears from the air testing labs that 5 % of the time that faith may be wrong.

[SneakyB'tard]

I'm not even sure you need to be aware of the legislation sneaky. Whether or not a dive store operator has read or even knows there is legislation does not absolve him of a responsibility to protect the public. I cannot believe that a dive store operator would think the regular testing of his air was not required whether by law, moral conscience or common sense. If it's safe to assume he is a diver before becoming a store owner it's safe to assume he is aware of the importance of good air.

My post stated exactly what you stated, Dive shop owners are not absolved from responsibility. I was quoting the Canadian Criminal Code and Case Law regarding negligence. The information I posted outlined the basics of Negligence and how persons have a legal respsonsibility to know the laws governing their business. I am sure all dive store owners have the morals and common sense to provide good air to their customers. The problem is that good intentions may not provide alot of weight in a case of negligence causing bodily harm or death.

Seahunter, I know your shop does it best to provide excellent service. This string is to help everyone with the other shops and air sources that do not do the testing required by law.

[pufferfish]

I know this is a bit of a side thread but relevent to the discussion.
For those of us who dive a lot in Ontario and other parts of the globe and know that possibly 5% of airfills may be suspect for CO there should be a route to lower this risk. I feel the 'route' is to check fills ourselves in the field for CO. I spoke with BW Technologies today about using their GasAlert handheld unit in the field to check CO concentration from a SCUBA tank.

Their suggestion was to gently purge the second stage in front of the device or better yet put the monitor and second stage in a plastic bag and fill the bag with tank air. This would then be very accurate method for the measurement of CO concentration in the tank. What one cannot do is blast high pressure air from the second stage into the sensor as this will cause an unreliable result. He said the bag technique is used on the oil rigs each morning by the workers to check their unit's proper functioning for sour gas (H2S) detection.

The price of $375 US may seem a bit steep for some but I would rather have a device where I no longer have to rely on the quality and honesy of the fill station owner and whether or not he or she has had their air recently checked or if he did and it was bad having to worry that he acted on it. As mentioned I do a lot of diving in Central America and while I do check out the compressor's intake location one always wonders. I think a device like this will diminish those concerns.

He did say the device needs to be calibrated once or twice a year and the battery changed every three years. Calibration and gortex filter change can be done here in TO and costs twenty to thirty bucks,...free he said if you come to head office in Calgary.

The device is available from Peacock Industries, Procom, and Levitt Safety.

There are many risks inherent in SCUBA the largest being pilot air. This hopefully I can mitigate against by keeping my skills up to date. Knowing there is a risk of 5% of tank fills in North American containing CO greater than 10 ppm is a risk that if true no pilot training can mitigate against aside from asking to see the lastest air lab test and/or checking those fills yourself. I think I would like to do both.

Here is the link on the unit.
Thanks Sneaky for putting me on to this.

GasAlert (http://www.gasmonitors.com/main.cfm?sub2=11&page=prodpage1&pid=5)

[seahunter]

Seems we've come to a consensus and I'm pleased.

I don't doubt but what some dive stores are not as diligent as they ought to be. It concerns me greatly. Please contemplate that I dive and my family and friends dive just as yours do. Realize further however, that this sport has been my whole life longer than many of you have been alive. I will feircely protect it from rumor or unfounded attack. It also happens that I have a very large financial investment in it. My family's well being and the families of several others at S2K depends on the sport and S2K staying healthy and I have a responsibility to see it does. Please don't be so quick to condemn a dive store owner ' 'cause he makes a buck'. If there's a problem with an owner, I'll help you nail him for the above reasons - not because I don't like him or he's competition!! I have helped many store owners over the years with business problems including compressors and air stations. Fred, who BTW is probably the reigning expert on air stations in Ontario at this time and a friend and frequent visitor to S2K, will confirm that too! He and I have discussed this issue over many beers.


Just to clarify, there is no requirement to publicize failed test results. They are used by the air station to correct a problem and get the air back to standards.
PADI does in fact require the quarterly air tests to be on file. Some stores are not too diligent there either. It has nothing to do with Randy Giles. All facility monitoring is done from California.

[pufferfish]

tcarr53 once bubbled...
I think you maybe wrong SeaHunter, there is a provincial standard set out by the Ministry of Labour.
All air suppliers who provide air for their staff whether paid or not must meet the standard which is CSA Z 180.1 unless your air is tested by an accredited lab who can test to these standards you are breaking provincial labour laws, these laws do not apply to only those who are commercial dive operations.
If the air certificate you have doesn't say it meets or exceeds z180.1 then in this province if you the owner or your instuctional staff are using that air you are breaking the law!


Seahunter for the public record then can I come in to your shop and see documentation that your air meets or exceeds CSA Z 180.1 standards? Also just out of curiosity and I think it is great you have an inline CO monitor, what threshold does it alarm at?

I am not trying to be confrontational here, but am trying to determine who in the GTA I will get fills from and recommend others do so as well. If a shop can't provide the proper documentation or gets their back up when asked to do so then does one really want to rely on them for clean air?

Just to update the situation a bit. Those figures in the DAN article from 1998 above on CO contamination are accurate but include fill station samples from fire stations and SCUBA. Apparently fire stations use more portable gas compressors where intake contamination from the compressor's exhaust is not uncommon. However when I spoke with one of the large accredited labs in the States this week they said there still is about THREE percent failure rate for SCUBA fills having CO levels greater than 10 ppm. I consider three percent still far too high for my liking. If a shop owner gets a result back and it has say 30 ppm he is not obliged to act on it and could just file the report like the brothers did in Walkerton where they lived and had very strong moral and social pressure not to do so. Don't think human nature cannot repeat itself in the scuba air fill business.

It appears divers are not the only ones concerned about unknown sources of this invisible odourless gas. Pilots as well have long underestimated the incidence of CO related problems as this interesting article shows. Make sure to scroll past the accidents and see what levels of CO they consider acceptable in the face of a little hypoxia at 8000 feet.
Pilots and CO (http://www.avweb.com/news/aeromed/181799-1.html)

[seahunter]

Our current air test certificate is always posted at the fill station.
I keep all old test copies too which I suppose you could look at if there was any reason to. They go back a long, long time.

The inline moniter is the visual model from Global which uses replaceable discs that change color if CO or moisture is detected. I've no idea at what level they change. Perhaps Global could supply that information. It is the only model I have seen available for this application.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "..file a report..". PADI 5 Star facilities are required to supply a copy of the actual air test certificate every quarter. If a dive store owner gets a air test that fails to meet standards, he must do what is required to clean the air, re-test and get a 'pass' air test certificate.
Clearly the solution is to simply ask to see the current air test.

While healthy concern about your safety as a diver is good, you seem a bit preoccupied with this bad air issue. I don't know if you have a paranoi about it or are just naturally ultra-cautious. Regardless, there's a limit to which you or anyone can go to ensure your air is good. No dive store owner is able to test each fill. You could I suppose get your own test kit. They're not terribly expensive. One of the problems which I'm almost hesitant to bring up because of your over-concern is the fact that the air quality from a compressor (scuba or not) changes daily. The air quality is dependent on many factors which are beyond the air station's or your control. If the ambient air temperature is very high or the air quality is very low, the compressed air may not match the test results even if the test was very recent.
Don't be paranoid about an air test that exceeds the standards by a small amount. For the very reason mentioned (varying air quality due to environmental factors), the standards are extremely safe. Each level could be out by several percent or many PPM and the air if perfectly safe to breath even at depth.

There is no practical way to certify every fill.
A PADI 5 Star (or a store that voluntarily makes quarterly tests) with a concerned and cautious staff will ensure you have the best air available.

We live is a dangerous world. If you live, work and play in the GTA, the liklihood of you succombing as a result of bad air is so low it's impossible to calculate. Suffice to say that if a list of the 100 most likely causes of your premature death was made, bad air would not even be considered. What you need to worry about is staying alive while driving to the dive site.

[pufferfish]

Actually it was the president of Intel, Mr. Grove, who has been attributed with that quote I think. Intel seems to have done quite well over the last decade with a little bit of paranoia amongst its ranks.

As for having a paranoia, no the only voices I have been hearing in my head lately have had to do with Mel and Chretien doing irreversible damage to this city and country. Maybe you have heard those little voices too :D

Listen as I said I am not worried about a PADI 5 star facility providing bad air, but what about all the little shops around the province who are short on sales these days and need to save some $$. I'm sure compressor maintenance is low on the list of things to spend money on when the going gets rough.

My preoccupation (ok I will agree with that) with air quality has came about as I still do a lot of off the beaten track diving and have been looking for a device other than the taste or headache test to assure my air is clean in the field. Most of those scuba specific CO devices have either gone out of business or are colormetric tests with very questionable accuracy and precision. I will post here a new CO device that could be used by the recreational diver who does venture off the beaten path once I get the ok from the designer for this use of his device.

That is great that PADI require 5 star facilities to file a copy of quarterly air reports with them. Yes more reason to stick to such a facility, but my question is how many of those facilities are in Ontario and what about all the other places in Kingston, Toronto, Toby,and Brockville which are not five star facilities? I am not completely sure here but it is my understanding they are then only required to do biannual air quality tests? My question is are these tests required to be sent to an independent government agency to ensure they are actually done twice a year? If not then an unscruptulous fill station could just not do them at all or could do one and "exceed the standard by just a little". The Koebel brothers in Walkerton thought they could let just a "little bit" of E. Coli 0157 into the town's drinking water and seven people died. We can't have fill station owners interpreting what they may think is "just a little". How much CO is just a little over the standard,...20, 50, maybe a 100 ppm? A smoker, who breaths some exhaust in on the dive boat and then has a tank with 100 ppm of CO in the fill may just not finish his dive and be found unconscious in the shallows. The monitoring system outside of reputable 5 star fill stations just seems a little too lax to me.

Listen I spoke with the director of one of those air quality labs above last week and 3% of scuba fills tested from North America still fail for exceeding 10 ppm CO. I would expect that for a fill station in Drake Bay, Costa Rica or Big Corn Island in Nicaragua, but we are talking about North America. That number is too high and if it those failures are not form your shop then where are they in this Province?

You bring up a very interesting point about daily variation in air fill quality even given say perfect maintence of the compressor. Toronto had something like 26 smog alerts last summer which can be triggered by six different pollutants one of which is CO. I am just curious whether anyone has considered whether tanks should be filled on those days if the CO is above 10 ppm in the intake air. We know nothing about the effects of high concentrations of ozone, CO, SO2, or NO2 in breathing gas at depth. Maybe we shouldn't be doing fills between noon and midnight on the days with smog alerts. I do not know, but I don't think anyone has considered these issues. Any thoughts? Remember the 'eyes can't see what the brain doesn't know'.

You are right in that driving to Toby might be more dangerous than breathing a tank with 50 ppm of CO at a hundred feet but I am aware of that risk and can lessen it by wearing a seatbelt and only driving to my risk level of 125 km/hr. What worries me about the fill station business (and that is what it is) is that the public and myself may have underestimated the risk of getting air that "just exceeds the standards by a little." All I am trying to do is get a grip on the issue and determine if this is a problem or not. Some have called me tenacious at times.

There are very simple methods around these issues. Stick to a five star facility yes, but always ask to see the most recent air quality test. I am willing to say less than 20% of divers do this. I will certainly start this summer. If I can't see a result less than six months old ideally four months, I won't use that station. And when I get my new CO testing device I am going to start checking lots of people's fills and talking publicly about the results! Getting paranoid yet? :mean:

[Chet]

Getting paranoid yet?

YES, but not for the same reason you are. My suggestions to pufferfish is to forget about the CO device and go right for a portable mass spectrometer(sp). HA HA
Serously, I do respect your intensions but (I cannot speak for seahunter or anyone else that owns a dive shop), I do not believe anyone in this sport in a position who fills gas would screw with their air. If there is a problem I would imagine they are the first who would want to know so they could correct the situation immediately!!!!!!!!!
Two years ago I got a fill in the GTA from a store and the tank had a taste of drying agent. I inform the store and they said they had just changed their filter with the drying agent in it. They stopped pumping and in front of me openned all the filters (they had four at the time). They found the filter with charcoal in it had seen moisture. The week before was very hot and humid and in the summer they informed me that they change their drying filter once a week. Charcoal wet does not work. It was changed and off they went.
The point of this waste of bandwidth is I believe most people in the pumping air business are responsible for delivering very clean air but sometimes **** happens. Thats why we are taught to smell and taste our air before the dive. Maybe I have to much trust in people and with respect to this post, morality should be here. I will not lose sleep over this one, I hope you do not either.
CHET

[Bubble Boy]

Chet once bubbled...
They found the filter with charcoal in it had seen moisture. The week before was very hot and humid and in the summer they informed me that they change their drying filter once a week. Charcoal wet does not work.

The point of this waste of bandwidth is I believe most people in the pumping air business are responsible for delivering very clean air but sometimes **** happens.

Thats why we are taught to smell and taste our air before the dive. CHET [/B]

Chet,
Why was their charcoal wet???? The drying media comes first?

This is not a waste of bandwidth if just one person is educated on checking for valid air certificates before getting air. Are you saying that all agencies say that you should smell and taste the air before you dive? Or did you just have a good instructor?

[pufferfish]

Chet,
You are right in that the majority fill station owners are going to be concerned about the air they and their customers breath. I am not really worried so much about malice as I am about ignorance.
I don't know how long you have been around but I have seen enough ignorance and resulting death or serious injury in this country, and afterwards astonishment by the public that this monitoring system broke down or how could that 'moral' person do such an immoral thing. Let me tell you morality has very little to do with how people conduct themselves in this world.

Examples of **** happening.

Walkerton: beautiful example of malice and ignorance. Brothers falsified results or just put them in the drawer as they didn't know what they meant. Seven dead and two thousand injured

Blood Supply: how many have died and how much have we spent on health care for people who have contracted HIV, Hep B, C, and now West Nile from tainted blood.

EEG :Something like sixty patients in Scarborough contracted Hep B because a moral upstanding doc was not cleaning his electrodes properly between patients.

Colonoscopy: Same **** as EEG above. In Halifax a hospital was NOT cleaning properly their colonoscopy hoses between patients and inadvertently spread amebiasis to a few patients.

Brain Surgery: Canada continued to allow in dead man's dura possibly infected with prion disease depite other countries pulling the stuff long ago. Those patients now sit and wait to see if they get mad cow disease.

SARS: ignorance led to the start of this outbreak here in Toronto and not in Vancouver. 23 dead and a billion dollar loss to the GTA. I will leave that for the reporters to present over the next six months.

Gas Explosions: killed seven last week and it appears the guy was using a back hoe instead of a shovel around the marked gas lines.

No I haven't lost any sleep over the scuba air quality issue in GTA but I have walked away from diving in Nicaragua when I looked at the fill station there. I just think people are fooling themselves and only have to look at the above examples for evidence that things we took for granted as safe (drinking water, blood, public health monitoring) in the Province have turned out to have much higher risk than we thought. I am not convinced yet that the scuba air monitoring system in the Province is much different. Yes we pay our money and take our chances in this life, but it helps to know what those chances of **** happening are.

[SneakyB'tard]

There are several time proven methods of quality assurance.

It is about time that the dive industry entered the new millenium in quality monitoring and assurance. Service providers must maintain due diligence in quality monitoring. They are solely responsible for the product they sell and are liable for any non-conformances. **** does not happen, it is a culmination of actions or reactions. 99.99% of them can be avoided through constant monitoring and quality assurance.

Batch testing is an excellent method of ensuring quality. Test one cylinder per 10 tanks for air quality. This may seem long and redundant, but so is a court proceeding...the first is cheaper.

A record of test results should be logged and posted. If a customer has 20 tanks, show him the test results from both tests...they should be flawless and consistant.

Smelling and tasting your air is a foolish method of ensuring if your air is good. Most harmful contaminants are tasteless and odourless. We live in the 21st century...let's use proven technology not soothsayers and old wives tales to protect ourselves.

Just because someone is a PADI 5 Star facility does not make them safe or superior. Maybe an ISO certified facility..one that is audited every quarter for their deligence and conformance.

This should not be viewed as an attack on dive stores. If society didn't accept new ideas or theories we would still be living in the stone age.(some of us still are)
Keep up the research Pufferfish!------Keep this post going!:)

[seahunter]

Boy, this will really screw your mind.
There is no regulation I'm aware of that stipulates air testing intervals. It's a simple matter of the operator assuring he provides good air. He is free to determine how that is to be done and how often is is to be checked. Why do you think PADI, a training agency, is involved for their stores? The only recourse for the consumer is the courts and that only after having suffered damage.

The last regulatory body in Ontario (outside PADI) was the now defunct OUC. They required members (membership was optional - less than 15% of Ontario dive stores were members) to have their air tested ONCE annually! They even had an air test program with a single man who tested the air of all dive store members in Ontario once a year. The test equipment was, shall we say, well used! Many dive stores still use that basis (one annual test) today.

If there was a method that allowed me to test each air fill or even 1 in 10 we would already have it installed. You've seen that S2K is a leader in using all available methods to protect the diver. How many dive stores sanitize every regulator and wet suit between users? Only S2K.
The practical difficulty is that there is no AFFORDABLE AND PRACTICAL method to do the tests.
The quarterly tests already cost us about $1000 a year. The filter changes already cost us about $1500 a year. And we don't charge for air fills to certified divers!

Testing 1 tank in 10 is a great idea. Would the divers be willing to pay $25 for an air fill? How many stores would stop pumping air is the equipment investment was mandatory? Every one that closes makes it harder to get a fill.
So then you have to travel for 1 hour (round trip) and pay $25 for an air fill. So much for the sport of diving.

Heck you could make car travel as safe as walking (actually walking is not a lot safer than driving these days) but the cars would cost $100,000 and up and we'd all be restricted to 30KPM.

The point is that there's a limit to how much and how far the public will back safety. Insofar as air fills are concerned, quarterly testing is still not universally accepted. Let's work on that first and then improve from there.

[Bubble Boy]

seahunter once bubbled...
Boy, this will really screw your mind.
There is no regulation I'm aware of that stipulates air testing intervals. It's a simple matter of the operator assuring he provides good air.
Well Seahunter--assuming you have employees the Labour Code requires your breathing air to compy with CSA Z-180.1 standards which require every six months or after major maintenance as a minimum. NFPA requires quarterly (you have mentioned filling SCBA)

The last regulatory body in Ontario (outside PADI) was the now defunct OUC. [/QUOTE]
The OUC still exists. They have a treasure hunt on father's day weekend. The OUC was never a regulating body but rather a voice between the dive community and the government.

They required members (membership was optional - less than 15% of Ontario dive stores were members) to have their air tested ONCE annually![/QUOTE]
Do you have a copy of such a requirement or are you making it up?

They even had an air test program with a single man who tested the air of all dive store members in Ontario once a year. The test equipment was, shall we say, well used! Many dive stores still use that basis (one annual test) today.[/QUOTE]
I think they were all married LOL. It was Fred H, then Jim P and now Dave C. Current technology prevents them from being mobile with a GC therefore samples are sent in. They are a viable option for those two air tests that do not need to be done at an accredited lab or if you want to test more frequently at an affordable price.

How many dive stores sanitize every regulator and wet suit between users? Only S2K.[/QUOTE]
Really, have you done a survey. Is it only S2K divers that releive themselves in their wet suits?

The practical difficulty is that there is no AFFORDABLE AND PRACTICAL method to do the tests.[/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone should put a dollar value on safety. See puffers comments on Walkerton.

The point is that there's a limit to how much and how far the public will back safety. Insofar as air fills are concerned, quarterly testing is still not universally accepted. Let's work on that first and then improve from there. [/QUOTE]
Why bother quarterly testing if you can fail and keep on pumping air? Do you still dive?

[SneakyB'tard]

What I am reading betwen the lines is that a LDS do not see a profit in the installation of an air monitor within their system. The monitors are available.

What is the main issue, Profit or safety? I certainly hope ,as a consumer, that the utmost priority of a business would be the safety of their clients and the quality of their product.

A PADI sticker on a door means nothing to me in regard to safety and quality. All I see is a sticker that promotes a corporation thats makes millions from their oversized marketing and baywatch atmosphere.

To me the registration of a business into a internationally known regulatory body such as ISO would give me a better feeling on the quality of air. ISO 1800 governs Health and Safety. ISO also has independant auditors that will do a nonbias assessment the quality of ones product. They are not concerned with the possibility of a failed a company going to the competition.

I find it strange that a store of high quality would not know the ppm of CO that activates a disk. I would assume that a person that has been pumping high quality superior air would have the complete list memorized and available.

If the dive industry does not move quickly on this issue, there will be an independant body governing it, and it will put many of the businesses out of the air market.

[Butch103]

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...

To me the registration of a business into a internationally known regulatory body such as ISO would give me a better feeling on the quality of air. ISO 1800 governs Health and Safety. ISO also has independant auditors that will do a nonbias assessment the quality of ones product. They are not concerned with the possibility of a failed a company going to the competition.



in the following thread ISO was discussed re:diving instruction, and my understanding is the organization was debunked as justa money making marketing ploy. If this is the case what is the value of the above statement. Again this is a question as I have no first hand knowledge of the ISO organization.....

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26552&highlight=ISO

[pufferfish]

I have just got off the phone with the director of both the labs quoted in the DAN Diver Alert article from five years ago and guess what nothing has changed from the figures (see earlier post in thread) in the 1998 article except those percentages were combined SCBA and SCUBA CO failures. Both labs when I asked what the figures would be for scuba alone said about three percent. So we have two of the largest labs in the US independently saying about three percent of scuba fills fail for CO. I think we can then use that figure in our discussions as these labs also do some Canadian testing.

So we have a situation where three percent of the scuba fills they are testing have CO in the fill higher than the allowable 10 ppm. We have no idea how much higher but in the DAN article one of the labs said sometimes up to 200 ppm. Bob Laughlin at Lawrence Factor labs said there should be no CO in any scuba fill especially if one is using an electric compressor. Almost all the failures he said are eventually traced to improper compressor maintenance or air intake placement in the case of the gas compressors. He mentioned a case of exhaust and intake in the same room,.....and one is not worried about ignorance here or sticking one's head in the sand and just saying **** happens.

I agree with Sneaky in that what are we concerned about here, safety or profit? We do live in the 21st century and there are in line devices for monitoring in real time the quantitative CO concentration in a fill. I truly think divers would gladly pay an extra buck a fill to know their dive shop was monitoring in real time the concentration of CO going into the tank. The idea one can taste or smell if the air in their tank is contaminated with CO is as ludicrous and outdated as saying you could detect E. Coli in your drinking water by tasting it. Both contaminants are invisible and can kill you, and yet despite the technology available to detect CO in real time we have people saying just pray to Allah and hopefully no **** happens. I can tell you if there was a shop in the GTA within reasonable driving distance that advertized their fills were guaranteed (with real time quantitative monitor) to have less than 10 ppm of CO in the fill every diver with 25 km would come and gladly PAY for that fill! Giving away air may not be in a diver's best interest.

One of the reasons I think CO is a good contaminant to monitor in the face of many others other than the fact it is odorless, colourless, and lethal above a certain concentration is that it probably is a very good marker for other contaminants in the tank. Maybe someone more knowledgeable in this area could comment, but if there is CO in a tank fill from an electric compressor this would be a very good indicator that something is wrong with that fill overall, and there may be other contaminants in the tank. In other words an elevated CO may be just a smoking gun for all kinds of other 'nasties' in the tank from an electric fill station.

[SneakyB'tard]

No ISO is not just a marketing ploy...


Until recently, any company that wished to do business outside of Canada needed ISO 9001:2000 certification. That requirement has now evolved to the point where many firms in Canada are demanding that their product (and service) suppliers be ISO 9001:2000 certified. Further, many firms in environmentally sensitive areas of the marketplace are requiring that their suppliers be ISO 14001 certified in both the international and domestic marketplaces.

Certification is earned only after an intensive audit by third party Registrars following assessment (also called "Gap Analysis"), by a qualified consultant and the preparation of documentation outlining new quality system procedures by that consultant. This assures purchasers that a common quality level is present and that it will meet or exceed their own internal quality assurance programs.


Want to see a money making ploy...read a PADI book.

[Bubble Boy]

pufferfish once bubbled...
One of the reasons I think CO is a good contaminant to monitor in the face of many others other than the fact it is odorless, colourless, and lethal above a certain concentration is that it probably is a very good marker for other contaminants in the tank. Maybe someone more knowledgeable in this area could comment, but if there is CO in a tank fill from an electric compressor this would be a very good indicator that something is wrong with that fill overall, and there may be other contaminants in the tank. In other words an elevated CO may be just a smoking gun for all kinds of other 'nasties' in the tank from an electric fill station.
Bauer has the SECURUS continuous moisture monitoring system when combined with the CO monitoring works great.

[Butch103]

on the PADI..although I will continue my training thru PADI (I like the instructor) I do dislike the constant commercial in any PADI manual.

As for the ISO ...as I stated I have no ( or very limited knowledge from reading on this board) of the organization.

Is this the same as in my previous post?

And than I assume your opinion doesn't agree with many of those in the other thread.

Good to have different opinions.......

[SneakyB'tard]

I agree

[seahunter]

It would seem that for the moment I'm the only one speaking as a dive store owner (bastards!!).
If you want me to continue to contribute, convince me you're NOT taking shots at me personally. I'm too busy making my millions to spend time on this board but I like to think I can add a perspective from my 35 years in the retail diving industry. Obviously some of the things I've said which are all verifiable, are news to you so maybe it's worthwhile. If you would rather I shut up, I'm happy to do so (well...not happy but willing!) and then y'all can natter on about air testing amongst yourselves which will have no real effect on what's really happening.

Bubbleboy, you're first.
My employees are all well aware of the air standards at S2K. I was under the impression you were concerned about scuba divers NOT scuba store employees. Hence my statement that there are no guidelines or regulatory body - the divers are on their own. Is that not the concern expressed in this thread?
The OUC still exists on paper (we advertise in their annual retail directory) but as a faint shadow of their former self. I think their current business hours are Tuesdays from 11 to 1. They provide no service to either the stores or the divers that is not available elsewhere at higher quality. I'm not picking on them. Everyone at the OUC now or before was a personal acquaintance of mine. The OUC is defunct (read the definition of defunct).
The Air Test requirement for Commercial Members of the OUC was an annual air test. I was a member for over 25 years and had my air tested every year by Jim as required to maintain membership. If the requirements have changed recently I've not heard about it.
The difficulty is that the OUC by that requirement established a standard albeit for the OUC only and not the entire scuba industry but many dive stores then and now assume that's OK. Times have changed.
You are a little inconsistent. You've been raving about dive store owners that don't keep up with the latest (and most expensive) technology but suggest the OUC testing program is OK for those stores that don't want 4 tests a year and are happy with an un-accredited test! Are some stores OK with less tests or lower quality tests? How does a store qualify for that B- program?
I am in almost daily contact with the dozen or so dive store owners in the GTA that (IMO) have an impact and no one else to my knowledge has a sanitizing program in effect for rental and/or pool gear. There's no need to get ignorant. If there is another store please supply the name so I can work with them to set some type of standards for this new diver safety program.
Whether you and I like it or not, money is a very big deciding factor. The public has to be prepared to pay for a service even if it's a safety issue. It's that simple. I have no intention of installing an air monitoring system way beyond the industry norm with no hope of paying it off just to make you happy. No businessman would! My analogy of the automobile is even more valid. Cars exist that will protect a driver in any accident (watch NASCAR!) and new laws would greatly reduce the danger on the roads but who's willing to pay? Even then there would still be fatalities. What you're asking for is an iron-clad guarantee of pure air in each fill. Possible, but not at a price you're willing to pay for an air fill!
Bottom line bubble, if I may pick on you for a moment, is that you want the store owner to provide you with pure air but you won't pay for it!!

It's interesting to speculate on the impact of such a pure air program.
"The air is absolutely not a problem so the diver's death is the result of something else .. maybe the regulator, the BC, the computer, the dive tables, the ocean, the boat captain".
Like most things in this screwed-up world today every problem is the fault of something OTHER than the participant. In fact, check the accident reports from your OUC or from DAN and determine how many diver fatalities were attributable to bad air. My guess is none. How many were attributable to stupid divers? My guess is most.

Be very careful about accusing any dive store owner of pumping bad air as your last comment implies. I scuba dive regularly. I also logged many thousands of dives with air from homemade, backyard compressors. Are you implying that this issue doesn't affect me?
Your comments suggest that you have no regard nor faith in any store owner. Perhaps it's time for you to consider a new sport!

[seahunter]

Sneaky, your assessment of PADI is quite correct. They are a very profit oriented, business-like organization. Thank God!! We've had our fill of volunteer-run, well-meaning but incompetent and constantly broke certifying agencies.
The money that PADI 'steals' from you has brought hundreds of new products, services, programs (including several diver safety and QA programs) to the diving community. Yep! They do make a profit (bastards!) but they re-invest a lot of that money in the sport. In defence of the other agencies, I'm sure they'd do the same IF THEY HAD ANY MONEY TO SPARE.

The PADI sticker on the door is no guarantee. You're right again! But it is an assurance that the people behind that door have an investment in the sport AND they have a big brother who watches them. Contact PADI if you see something amiss at a PADI dive store and you'll see the value of PADI to the diver. No other agency will act so fast or firmly.

There are high quality, quantitative constant air monitors available (Right again! You're on a roll here.). I actually bought a used one some time ago in the hopes of being the first to have one in a dive store but the cost to rebuilt it was over $5000. It constantly compares the ambient air quality to the compressed air and measures 6 gases at once. Wanna buy it cheap?
I don't want to make a profit on a system like this but I'd like to get my investment back over a reasonable length of time say, 5 years. Heck, I'll never make a profit on the compressor and it's more important than the air monitor (Do you need a picture?).

As I said earlier, go to the Global website and check on the specs of the monitor we use. I've not the time nor need to do so. It's the only one available and the only one in use as far as I know. If it bothers you that I don't have the specs available right now, I'll detach it from the system.

I've often heard divers use the implied threat that "...if you guys don't do something the government will do it and you'll be screwed!" I won't be screwed. You'll be screwed! If the gov't gets involved the only way you'll be able to get an air fill is to buy a compressor. That will require you to take a 6 week course at your own expense, get annual re-certification, make weekly air tests at your own expense and so on. Think before you speak.

This is a diver issue not a government issue.

BTW, I forget how this all got started. Did someone get bad air? Did someone die from bad air? Is there bad air? Why are we at the yelling and accusatory stage of an issue that may not even be a concern?

[seahunter]

Puffer, not a chance. I'll take that bet. If I install a monitor that 'guarantees' pure air and supply fills for a modest cost ($10), no one will come.
Hell, our air is certified pure and is free and many divers won't go off the 400 to get a fill (that's a 10 minute drive)!

BTW, at $10 it would take about 50 fills each day all year over 5 years to get back my original investment by which time it'll all have to be replaced.

[SneakyB'tard]

I've often heard divers use the implied threat that "...if you guys don't do something the government will do it and you'll be screwed!" I won't be screwed. You'll be screwed! If the gov't gets involved the only way you'll be able to get an air fill is to buy a compressor. That will require you to take a 6 week course at your own expense, get annual re-certification, make weekly air tests at your own expense and so on. Think before you speak.Seahunter

Now Seahunter, I think it would be the person whose livelihood depends on the sale of air that would be screwed.


Realize further however, that this sport has been my whole life longer than many of you have been alive. I will feircely protect it from rumor or unfounded attack. It also happens that I have a very large financial investment in it. My family's well being and the families of several others at S2K depends on the sport and S2K staying healthy and I have a responsibility to see it does.Seahunter

I always think before I speak.

[mcrae]

Hi, I am no expert of air compressors but I really fail to see the concern over C0. It essentially can only originate from the ambient air that the compressor is drawing from. A visual inspection will tell you if it is getting fairly clean air, just like the stuff you are breathing as you make your inspection.

It does not magically generate in the compressor, it is a by- product of combustion, like the famous delivery truck parked outside the mythical dive shop in your open water course.

No need for a fancy monitor at all.

There only two contaminants I am concerned with, one is trace amounts of hydrocarbons that could originate in a very cheap or worn out compressor so here you trust the LDS or go some where else.

Second if they are not changing the dessicant/filter often enough the dew point will get to be unacceptable.
Not great, especially for steel tanks. But again a quality shop can easily prevent this but it does cost.

Gary

[pufferfish]

Is there a problem with contaminants such as CO in scuba fills? Seahunter I agree that is a reasonable question to ask.

Firstly I have presented evidence from two large accredited labs in the US who both state there is a failure rate for CO greater than 10 ppm of 3 percent. We have no idea what the range of those failures is. If half of them are a 100 ppm then we have a problem for divers.

You ask about the DAN data which I have for 1995 to 2000 where they have 522 deaths recorded.

Drowning 29%
Complications of near drowning 34%
Air Embolism 12%
Cardiac 10%
Trauma 1%
Unknown .6%
Body not recovered 3%
Other 10%

Now if one looks at the initial injury in the drowning and near drowning (330 deaths) categories we see CO enter the equation at .6% not an insignificant number however for 44% the event causing the drowning was unknown. In other words if the coroner doesn't look for CO we never know if it was a factor. It is thought (like in the small plane accidents) that CO toxicity is underreported. We do not know in 44% of cases whether CO was involved or not. Usually it is up to the coroner who often has no scuba knowledge to decide if a blood COHb level is done on the deceased or the tank gas is analysed.

You are right in that pilot error is most often the cause of death and often this is due to diver stupidity or poor training. We can do something about that by keeping our skills up. It appears there is very little an unassuming diver in Ontario can do to prevent a bad fill if he or she does not ask to see the most recent air certificate. I have checked both the PADI and NAUI books and although they both state a diver should smell and taste his air before using it at no point do they state that a diver should ask the fill station to see the most recent air quality test. Most divers I would say assume like when they get in an elevator or turn on the tap for a glass of water they are not going to be injured or killed as there is a monitoring system in Ontario which protects them. It is quite apparent and it does "mess with my mind" that this is not the case in Ontario and most divers are not aware of this risk. And it certainly seems not too many shops seem too keen on educating divers of this risk. Could this be because they don't want to spend the money on biannual testing as required by law in Ontario by the CSA?

[Chet]

I am also interested in the stats concerning injuries or deaths from bad air? More specifically CO poisonning from a scuba tank?My opinion, CO might be a concern in a portable compressor, but thats why we use Hopcolite(sp) in the filter.
Seahunter I think you were unrealistic with your $10.00 a fill. For what this post has hinted at the price for an air fill would be $25.00 - $35.00. Also your reference to if government gets involved the public would be s*** out of luck, I am in 100% agreement with that. I believe the scuba industry has done a great job at self-regulating its industy.
As stated in a previous post, I believe this discusion is very important but I do not believe BAD AIR is a problem in the GTA.
To the people who are worried and are looking for some reassurance, look for the system that uses Hyper pure filters in their set-up. As an example, Lawrence-Factors Hyper pure filters.(Lawrence-Factor has been mentioned) Their filters produce Mixable air. In their twin towers they can process 40,000cubic feet of air before a change or 6 months which ever comes first. (Yes I agree the filters still have to be changed by the shop) Now lets say you have a Bauer K15(this is a big compressor), maybe a handful of shops in the GTA have this one or bigger, they pump at 14 cfm (shived down not to wear it out) thats 47.6 hrs of straight pumping or 500 80 cubic ft. tanks filled from empty. One or two shops might be doing these numbers. My point is as well as the test results look at the supporting equipment (hyper pure filters, size of compressor). Its not absolute but, it helps.
Bubble boy: I looked up the Labour act and your are right. If your are supplying breathing air to employees or sub-contractors you must meet CSA standards. I may be wrong but, I do not believe any shops in the GTA are CSA approved. Does anyone know if this is correct info.?( if I am wrong I would like to know and I would think that shop or group would be advertising it)
As for ISO, I wish I was the engineer that came up with this one.
Be Safe
Chet

[Chet]

Pufferfish I think this is a case for CSI!!!!!
Pufferfish do you know some new chemisty about the periodic table. I always thought C was for carbon and O was for Oxygen. Unknown .6%. It must me a new chemists code. You must of done your basic chemistry over the internet.In other words if the coroner doesn't look for CO we never know if it was a factor It is called blood gas test. Do you think all the suicides by CO still had their mouths still on the tailpipe.
GET REAL
Chet

[pufferfish]

Chet,
All shops in Ontario are CSA approved by default if they have employees. That is a minimum of biannual tests done by an accredited lab. One would hope that those shops pumping air in Ontario but not supplying air to employees would meet these minimal CSA standards but it appears they can get away with NO TESTING. As Seahunter points out that does "mess with my mind" and the average diver is not aware of this.

If one is a PADI five star facility quarterly testing is required BUT the results are often not sent in to head office. Compliance appears to be poor in reporting results whether good or bad.

It appears that if a fill station is not sending results to a training agency and a bad sample comes up they can just keep pumping bad air (just like the Koebels kept pumping bad water to Walkerton residents despite knowing the results showed E. Coli).
I find this also messes with my mind!

No the fact that all testing results remain private between the lab and the fill station is the real problem. This places the onus entirely on the diver to ensure he sees an air certificate when I contend that divers are completely unaware of this risk and not made aware of it in basic training.

Walkerton should serve as an example of what can happen when there is no external independent body monitoring air quality testing. Prior to Mike Harris all water samples were sent to a public lab and tested there. If abnormal, local purification plants were shut down immediately. You couldn't have a couple of ignorant brothers filing the E. Coli results in a drawer, then falsifying them, then trying to fix the filter themselves, then unfortunately killing seven people. After the inquiry the public lab has been set up again and if a private lab is used and an abnormal sample is found the Ministry of Health must be notified immediately. Prior to this change each town that one drank the water from in Ontario represented a new potentially lethal E. Coli source but Ontario residents were woefully unaware of this risk. They assumed like divers now do in the case of air quality that someone was monitoring the water quality across the province which was not the case.

The issue now is Ontario with fill stations is identical and just ripe for a similar disaster likely through Koebel type ignorance.
People assume shops are being monitored across the province when they are not. And when an abnormal result is found (if the shop is testing) that result remains the knowledge like the contaminated Walkerton water samples of only the fill station owner and the lab. Throw a Stan Koebel in there and someone might get injured or possibly killed.

[pufferfish]

Chet,
I don't even know if I should respond to that impulsive reply. Listen I know it is late and we both should be in bed but try and read what I said.
In the first table .6% was unknown cause of death for the overall deaths.
If one then takes only the drowning and near drowning cases above(29 plus 34 percent of total) and then looks at the initial injury we see the following:

CO poisoning .6%
Seizure .6%
Trauma 3%
Cardiac 9%
Insufficient Air 29%
Air Embolism 13%
Unknown 44%

What I was saying is that some of those deaths .44x330 in the unknown category involved CO but this was not reported as the coroner did not test for CO. It is quite common in a diving fatality depending on the juristiction for the air to NOT be tested for CO.
Just for your information one does not do a blood gas test to look for CO toxicity. One does a carboxyhemoglobin concentration (COHb) on the blood and/or a direct analysis on the tank's air for CO. There is a good chance bad air deaths are underreported as the coroner does not suspect them. These would show up as "unknown".

I hope that clears up your late night confusion but do apologize if it was not clear.

[seahunter]

I accept your apology sneaky (can I call you 'sneaky' or would you prefer 'bastard'?).
You are certainly not talking about me because we don't charge for air at S2K. Clearly whether I sell air or don't has no affect on my business.

Actually mcrae, you can get generation of CO from an electric compressor if it has not been well-maintained. Poor maintenance will result in weakened oil resistance to heat and breakdown of the lubricant from the over-heating in an old compressor can produce CO.

A dive store run by the owners with no other staff is exempt from the CSA regulation?
Let's have two compressors with a small clean one for the employees and the other for the ungrateful public!
Dam Mike Harris!! He's screwed up the whole province. He's a diver and he better not come to my shop for a fill. I'll have a special tank waiting for him AND his buddy Koebel!!

Re-read your posts guys. This is getting ridiculous. Harris had nothing to do with Walkerton. Koebel is a public employee (paid by the municiplatity to do the job) and a criminal. Water is a public resource. Scuba is a private enterprise enjoyed by less that 6% of the public. Air quality is NOT a factor is diver safety based on the figures (thank you Puffer).

Jeez! Grow up and accept responsibility for yourself. The only thing the regular references to Walkerton does in this post is demonstrate very well that you CANNOT expect the government to protect you. If you think a law or a new regulation or gov't involvement is the answer to this non-problem, you are the problem.

Every new diver is told about air quality certs and to check them.

Check or ask for current air certificate. If it's older than 6 months, leave the store. It's so simple it's stupid!
When you go to a grocery store and the fish isn't fresh, you leave. 200 times more Ontarians die from food poisoning each year than from diving. I can't calculate how many more die from food poisoning than from bad air while scuba diving!

[seahunter]

Just for reference Chet, we use a late model Bauer K15 which pumps 14 CFM at up to 5000psi when new. Our latest check shows about 12 cfm which is perfectly normal. We do not pump past 4000 psi to reduce heat and wear.
Our Bauer filter system is rated for 50,000 cubic feet which is good for almost 70 hours. We change both the separator and the filter at 50 hours which is about every 7 weeks (we pump a lot of air). Our system has an automatic dump which ensures the water and oil cannot build up and get into the filter which would render it useless in minutes. Manual units must be manually dumped every 15 minutes which is often overlooked or forgotten as the compressor runs along and the owner gets busy.
The base system cost about $30,000. The banks (very large with 30 - 4500 psi/400 cubic foot bottles) cost another $18,000 with the fill station.
Annual operating cost is about $5000 (oil - $250; filters/separators/prefilters -$1500; hydro -$650; maintenance -$1000; air tests -$1500).
Air fills for certified divers are free!

Yeah! I'm makng a fortune on that investment!!

No air fill station is CSA approved. They wouldn't 'approve' a fill station because if there was a problem (and they know can happen even if the air test meets their standards), they'd be liable. The CSA simply produces standards. The dive store either meets them or doesn't. If the fill station has an air cert that shows the air meets CSA standards it's not 'CSA approved'.

Again, while this has been interesting, the entire topic has been a non-starter. There are dam few air quality-related diver accidents in North America. I don't see any reference to one occuring in the last 6 years!
I suppose we've managed after a week, 4 pages of posts and a bit of yelling to agree that divers should check the store air cetificate, that the store should test the air 4 times a year (twice the good ol' CSA recommendation), that a store shown to have poor air or poor fill station care should be reported publicly and most important, that we should all be careful out there because accidents while diving can happen (but not caused by bad air).

[eagleray2003]

SeaHunter you seem to very paranoid, always on the defensive of your shop.

When I relocate in the coming weeks the shop I will be dealing with has the certification of Z180.1 proudly displays it will show latest test results, will show compressor maintance records to anyone who asks.

[pufferfish]

"Only the paronoid survive" :D

[Butch103]

for giving us the details of your air oiperation. Gives some of us in the diving world an idea of the cost of a compressor setup. I understand yours may be larger than the smaller shops.

The only comment I willmake is that if you don't charge for the air than of course there is no direct return on your investment.

Give it away free and no profit.

However you are doing this not out of the goodness of your heart, but ataas a lost leader to intice people into the shop. And I suppose to reward your loyal clients. Sure, as you mentioned somewhere else some will just drive right past your shop to pay for air, but so is the life in business.

But you must be making money on sales of gear and lessons. ( I assume you are making money on these in some sort of combination) .

So in the end there is a return on the investment. Just not direct to the compressor.

[pufferfish]

To state bad air is "not" a cause of death or is a non issue is certainly not the case. Yes I agree that it is a minor issue with a few deaths discoverd every few years however with such a large "unknown" category and coroners in many juristictions just recording the death if the cause is not obvious as a drowning may lead to underreporting anywhere from zero to 145 deaths (.44x330). We simply do not know.

Yes we do need to keep things in perspective and I still am not losing sleep over breathing bad air from my LDS but I have lost some sleep typing on the board trying to determine if other Ontario divers are unknowingly at risk and it is clear they may be.

It is also very true that all the diver has to do is ask for that air certificate and if it is more than six months old walk out. Last night I asked a new AOW diver trained in the west GTA if she knew about air certificates.She had never heard of them but she did know the smell and taste test. She then asked me if I look at a certificate will I know what it means? Good question. I am waiting for a reply from a good friend who I refered to S2K for her basic open water last december to see if what she knows about air certificates. My guess is her answer will be the same as the girl above.

And that is the crux of the issue. Yes divers should take this responsibilty to ask for the certificate but they are NOT being taught this and therefore are putting themselves at risk of bodily harm by assuming the onus is on the fill station to show documentation of clean air tests. As things stand in Ontario now, a diver who is not aware that he or she should ask to see this certificate may get air from a shop that hasn't checked their air in a year (there is no regulatory body, industy or government, to check up on the required biannual testing) as a worst case scenerio or to a shop like Scuba2000 that does quarterly testing and posts the results on the wall, the current best case scenerio. Eagleray is correct in that a compressor log of all repairs is to be kept by law and after any major repairs the air retested. How many shops do this?

The current system relies completely on voluntary testing and compliance. If all divers knew the questions to ask we wouldn't have a problem as those shops that are not complying could be shut down. Can you give me a figure on the percentage of Ontario shops that over the last two years had regularly checked their air every six months? No because no one knows. I know you do Seahunter but what about all the other ma and pa shop in the province.

I would gladly accept as a solution to this problem as stated on the poll question a new regulation, YES a new law, that required all Ontario dive shops to do quarterly testing by an accredited lab and the results must be posted where the customer can see them. If a result is abnormal the law states the compressor is shut down until the air passes the test, period. No government involvment to check up but divers would also be taught this regulation in basic open water. I assume you would not have a problem with this as you already comply with this. If you start to waffle on this then I must question your true intentions of looking out for the safety of the Ontario diver.

Yes this would represent a new higher bar for fill station standards in Ontario. And like when in Toby when a large boating accident caused the standards bar to be raised and many charter boats went under for poor standards, I would hope this would be the case for fill stations in Ontario. We have fewer charter boats in Toby but those that remain are safer and more expensive yes. Think about it Seahunter if say a third of fill stations were forced to close for failing to test quarterly and maintain standards we might be left with four large fill stations in Metro. Lets assume you are one of those. You now have much higher volume of tank fills (and customers in your shop) and I come to your shop knowing you meet an acceptable standard. And if you charged for your fills as I feel you should and earn a fair return on your investment then maybe you could by a nice new Bauer Vertical compressor with constant six gas real time quantitative monitoring. I would much rather have four large profitable safe busy fill stations in Metro than a dozen where maybe half of those we don't know what standards they meet. There has to be a way to make money off air and ensure good high quality fills using the most up to date technology. Maybe the days of every mom and pop shop in Ontario having an out of date compressor which is poorly maintained just because that is the way it has been done should come to an end. I was diving in Panama a few years back and there were lots of dive shops but only about two fill stations. I saw one and it had a mother of a huge compressor with inline realtime monitoring and they shipped air all over the country but you know what they made money and provided good air. Maybe Scuba 2000 would become the only fill station in the GTA if thats how the economics played out with raising the bar. You get all the fills in GTA and I pay $10 a fill for a safe reliable fill. I just don't buy your argument that this is not possible to run a profitable high volume lastest technology fill station. Raise the bar and let the weak perish and I will drive 20km to a high quality fill if need be or maybe the LDS who was forced to shut down their compressor will just have tanks shipped to and from the shop like they do in Panama.

[pufferfish]

In Ontario scuba related fatalities are not routinely checked for CO either with COHb in the blood or a tank analysis. Therefore that 'unknown' category of 44% is wide open for investigation.
The coroner did say that because scuba related fatalities require specilized knowledge they are looking at having autopsies done only in those centres where that knowledge exists. As it stands now a scuba related fatality in Timbuktu, Ontario unless the cause is obvious or head office gets involved just gets written up a drowning of unknown cause. Having scuba investigations done (if this is setup) in designated centres with expert knowledge should help cutdown on this mystery category of 'unkown'.

[seahunter]

Jeez! And I was worried about my long posts Puffer!

Interesting perspective.
I haven't long to answer but will say that I think you overestimate the other divers. The desire to save time and a buck will not be offset by the promise of pure air. There is no perceived problem so why pay for a solution?

Obviously I'd have no problem with a regulation that required me to post my air certs and/or have my compressor log inspected. I DO have a problem with laws in general. If we invite any regulatory body in to establish such a law they will do so with glee. Having done that they will then make laws to govern every other aspect of the sport. That's the nature of government and beaurocracy. It's not a condemnation. It's just a fact. They want to remain in control, they want to grow, they want to keep their job, they want to demonstrate they are good at regulating things .. so on they go.
1. A law prohibiting diving alone.
2. A law requiring redundant air supply (octopus is not good enough).
3. A law prohibiting dives deepr than 60'.
4. Annual re-cert for all divers to be allowed to dive in Ontario.
5. Annual fitness test for regulators and BC's whether used or not.
6. A licence to carry and use compressed air cylinders.
7. Approved hold down straps in cars for compressed air cylinders.
8. A law requiring a surface support person on all dives.
9. A law requiring a dive flag even in lakes with no-boating restrictions.
10. A law requiring a dive plan be filed 12 hours in advance at the provincial Association for Scuba Safety (ASS for short) local office.
11. Fees for all the above to pay for the staff, offices and enforcement of the LAWS.
.....and on and on.

Do you want to be the author of such a nightmare?

What's wrong with the diver being his own Safety Association? Check the dam air certificate at your LDS!!!
How much did that cost?
Do you think that simple action is more or less effective than a law?

[GTADiver]

seahunter once bubbled...
7. Approved hold down straps in cars for compressed air cylinders.

Hey sea hunter some of these actually make sence. Do you sell anything to hold down the tanks in my car....I always was looking for something snazzy like that.

[pufferfish]

Seahunter, just for the public record and for all those GTA divers reading this thread:
Does Scuba2000 meet or exceed the CSA Z180.1 compressed gas standards which stipulates a CO concentration of 5 ppm or less in the fill?

This is what divers in GTA want to see displayed on the shop wall every quarter. PADI states a five star facility should meet the US standards or the local standards whichever is stricter. CSA Z180.1 trumps US standards of 10 ppm CO.

Can I start telling people Scuba2000 meets the stricter CSA Z180.1 standards every quarter?

[SneakyB'tard]

1. A law prohibiting diving alone.
--OHSA 629/94 Part VI s.37(1) / COHSR Part XVII s. 18.10

2. A law requiring redundant air supply (octopus is not good enough).
--OHSA 629/94 Part VI s.38 (1)
--OHSA 629/94 Part IV s.26-27

3. A law prohibiting dives deepr than 60'.
--OHSA 629/94 Part VI s.36(1)f
4. Annual re-cert for all divers to be allowed to dive in Ontario
5. Annual fitness test for regulators and BC's whether used or not.
--OHSA 629/94 Part III
--OHSA 629/94 PART V(32)
--OHSA 629/94 Part II s.12(f)
--COHSR Part XVII s. 18.26

6. A licence to carry and use compressed air cylinders.
--HTA
--TDGA

7. Approved hold down straps in cars for compressed air cylinders.
--TDGA

8. A law requiring a surface support person on all dives.
--OHSA 629/94 Part VI s.37

9. A law requiring a dive flag even in lakes with no-boating restrictions.
--OHSA 629/94 Part XI s.62
--COHSR Part XVII s. 18.18

10. A law requiring a dive plan be filed 12 hours in advance at the provincial Association for Scuba Safety (ASS for short) local office.
--OHSA 629/94 Part II

11. Fees for all the above to pay for the staff, offices and enforcement of the LAWS.


:)

[pufferfish]

Sneaky, please do not incite Seahunter further.
He does get a little paranoid at times about government intrusion into our lives as I do about CO in my scuba fills :D

[Bubble Boy]

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...
1. A law prohibiting diving alone.
--OHSA 629/94 Part VI s.37(1) / COHSR Part XVII s. 18.10

2. A law requiring redundant air supply (octopus is not good enough).
--OHSA 629/94 Part VI s.38 (1)
--OHSA 629/94 Part IV s.26-27

3. A law prohibiting dives deepr than 60'.
--OHSA 629/94 Part VI s.36(1)f
4. Annual re-cert for all divers to be allowed to dive in Ontario
5. Annual fitness test for regulators and BC's whether used or not.
--OHSA 629/94 Part III
--OHSA 629/94 PART V(32)
--OHSA 629/94 Part II s.12(f)
--COHSR Part XVII s. 18.26

6. A licence to carry and use compressed air cylinders.
--HTA
--TDGA

7. Approved hold down straps in cars for compressed air cylinders.
--TDGA

8. A law requiring a surface support person on all dives.
--OHSA 629/94 Part VI s.37

9. A law requiring a dive flag even in lakes with no-boating restrictions.
--OHSA 629/94 Part XI s.62
--COHSR Part XVII s. 18.18

10. A law requiring a dive plan be filed 12 hours in advance at the provincial Association for Scuba Safety (ASS for short) local office.
--OHSA 629/94 Part II

11. Fees for all the above to pay for the staff, offices and enforcement of the LAWS.


:)
Kudos;) :thumb: :copper:

[seahunter]

My Gawd!!
All these laws!!

How did I ever survive 45 years of scuba diving. That's it! I'm not making another dive until I've passed the bar.

You prove my point. Apparently (mind you, appearances are deceiving), there are dozens of laws that regulate scuba diving yet few (may I say none?) of the divers I know have any idea they exist yet they scuba dive day after day, year after year, all over the world in complete safety.
Almost makes you think you're safer ignoring the law!

Interesting GTA that this past week several pool companies that are regular customers and 2 volunteer fire departments have inquired about hold downs to secure their tanks. A new regulation for commercial carriers of compressed air requires their use. There are several methods to do it.

Yes, puffer. You can confidently send your diver friends to S2K for air fills. The cert is over the station. I guess a few more free fills won't break me! I'll brace for the rush.

But... please don't wave the flag in my face.
I'm a staunch Canadian but not so naive to think that 'Canadian' means better necessarily. CSA standards are not always stricter and when they are it can often be for political reasons rather than practical. CO symptoms first appear at 100ppm+ and it becomes dangerously toxic at 200ppm or higher. Whether 5 or 10ppm is the standard for breathing air is no big deal even for scuba divers (recreational). Non-smokers living at home in an urban environment breath 10ppm; smokers are at 30 to 60ppm; the CO level at King and Yonge is often over 60ppm.

The following statement is taken from <http://www.divefortyoung.com/carmontox.html> and is related to an article describing a scuba fatality ascribed to CO. It's not definitive but is supportive of my claims that bad air is not a genuine concern and we (good air fill stations) are doing the best possible ...

"The incidence of faulty tank air is very rare, at least at reputable fill stations, so it is impractical to do on-site chemical analysis of every tank. Until air analysis becomes routine (if ever), testing must be up to the diver's senses, which means taking several breaths from the tank before entering the water. This practice helps provide a regulator check as well as a cursory check of the tank air. Certainly any headache (from CO) or bad taste (from other impurities) is warning that something may be wrong with the air. (Such a cursory check will likely not detect low levels of impurities, so sticking with a reputable fill station is probably your best protection.)"

If you're not following the similar topic under the 'Air Cert' poll you should do so.

[pufferfish]

seahunter once bubbled...
I'm a staunch Canadian but not so naive to think that 'Canadian' means better necessarily. CSA standards are not always stricter and when they are it can often be for political reasons rather than practical. CO symptoms first appear at 100ppm+ and it becomes dangerously toxic at 200ppm or higher. Whether 5 or 10ppm is the standard for breathing air is no big deal even for scuba divers (recreational). Non-smokers living at home in an urban environment breath 10ppm; smokers are at 30 to 60ppm; the CO level at King and Yonge is often over 60ppm.

The following statement is taken from <http://www.divefortyoung.com/carmontox.html> and is related to an article describing a scuba fatality ascribed to CO. It's not definitive but is supportive of my claims that bad air is not a genuine concern and we (good air fill stations) are doing the best possible ...



Seahunter I see you posted at 5am and am willing to cut you a lot of slack for the statements in your post above. Bohpal, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl all happened between three and six in the morning when the brain is often sleeping even while the person is still working.

First off I agree Ontario standards are not better, in fact they are sub-standard when you compare them to a place like Florida. In Florida the standards for monitoring were upgraded when they realized they had a healthy diver tourist industry to look after with large variations in compressor quality and maintenance. They now require quarterly testing with the air cert posted on the wall AND the quarterly certs are filled with the Dept. of Health.

In Florida it would not be possible for a fill station to receive a failed cert lets say with 50 ppm of CO and to keep pumping air as can happen in Ontario. In Florida it would not be possble to have a fill station owner decide that just a "little bit over the standards" is ok despite knowing nada about CO toxicity. And how much Seahunter would you allow over? From your statement above it sounds like anywhere from 10 to 100 ppm.
Do you know that firemen don their SCBA at 35 ppm and that is at 1 atm. Thirty five ppm in a smoker's tank who sits at the back of the boat with the exhaust on the way out to the dive site, and then dives to 100 feet and has N2 narcosis and possible some CO2 retention on top of that may not surface to finish his dive. Can you provide references for CO ranges for King and Young or did you make those up? I can tell you my house right now has 0 ppm CO. Funny the EPA in the States has these requirments outdoors and yet you say 10ppm indoors is OK.
"The EPA (U.S. Environmental Protection Agency) calls for a health hazard alert when the outdoor concentration of CO rises above 9 PPM for eight hours, or above 35 PPM for one hour."


No all we would like in Ontario so we don't have the above potential scenerios to contend with is a LAW like in Florida.
1. Air certs quarterly on the wall where the customer can see them
2. Certs are filed quarterly by law to some agency I don't care who, whether to yourself or to Ministry of Health but somewhere that should the standard be exceeded air cannot be pumped until it is fixed. I don't want fill station owners deciding 'just a little E. Coli in my drinking water' is ok as they are the resident expert on low level CO toxicity.

This is not a lot to ask for and if it costs an extra .$50 a fill to manage then so be it. The onus should be on the diver to check for a cert but most divers do not and this is NOT taught in basic training. The current system in Ontario is a sham and ripe for non-compliance. Until the diving industry here becomes proactive in this regard like they did in Florida we will have shops not testing air at all or testing air and failing but still pumping. Yes your shop might be meeting these standards but can you tell me what percentage of the other shops are in compliance with even biannual testing. NO ONE KNOWS in Ontario and this is an accident waiting to happen.

[pufferfish]

Well Seahunter I had the opportunity today to question two recent (Dec.02) graduates from the Scuba2000 basic training who I suggested train at your shop.

Q. What is an air certificate and what do you know about checking for the quality of your air?

A."We were told to go to known places but nothing was said about air certifcates or asking for them."

I asked two PADI instructors yesterday and got the same blank look. One had some knowledge but knew nothing of the legislation in Ontario regarding certificates and the other had never heard of them.

I have looked at the PADI and NAUI training materials and there is no mention at all of what an air certificate is or of asking for one. There is only info about going to a reputable shop and using the real crude test of tasting and smelling the air. And it is quite evident that the instructors, including those at Scuba2000, are not teaching this and so we are back to a woefully inadequate and potentially dangerous air quality monitoring system in the Province.

Shops are are not testing because there is no monitoring of compliance and divers are not asking as they assume compliance is being monitored. Seahunter you say the onus should be on the diver to ask for the certificate which might be fair if ALL agencies taught this as part of their programs. As this is NOT the case then the onus should be on the shop to maintain standards and post biannual certificates.

One shop I went to this week had a certificate from three years ago. Your shop may be doing quarterly testing but that appears to be the exception and the rule seems to be at best annual testing and at worst no testing. The time has come for the diving industry to take this issue seriously or face more LAWS. Self-regulation is not working.

And by the way I am still waiting for your CO references.

[cat]

Happy 55th birthday, seahunter!
:party: :3balloon: :cake:

(Don't light the birthday cake candles too close to the compressor intake, eh? )


Thank you for your cooperation. :armed:We now return you to our normally scheduled discussion of the silent killer.

Pufferfish: any information on the toxicology of CO at depth? All the toxicology data I've seen is in ppm and 1 atm, no mention of any studies done at > 1atm (mind you - I haven't looked as hard as you have). Wondering if increasing total pressure has any significant effect on the formation of COHb vs O2Hb (both the thermodynamics and kinetics of the formation reactions may be affected)

[pufferfish]

Cat stole the punch line, but careful about getting too close to all those 55 candles. You might get a headache and become nauseated :mean:

[seahunter]

Thanks guys. I don't know who let the cat out but I suppose everyone knows now just how long I've been breathing compressed air. Maybe that explains some of my quirks.

Just to be clear puffer, divers in general would not know about any legislation because there is none governing the air quality for divers. Let's not backtrack in this thread. It is required that air stations have pure air for employees.
It is assumeed that the station would supply the same pure air for the customers but it not legislated.

I also checked the new diver materials and you're right. There is 1 1/2 pages on the importance of pure air, sources of contamination, signs of bad air and thus the need for divers to get air from reputable sources but no mention of how to know if the source is reputable.
I will direct our staff to address that apparent oversight by telling new divers to ask for certificates. I suppose that the PADI organization assumes the divers will frequent PADI stores which have some controls in place. I don't know why NAUI left that vital step out!

I still firmly believe this can solved satisfactorily without a 'law'. I'm not yet even convinced there is a problem to be solved but am prepared to initiate education to make divers aware of the potential for a problem.
We train almost 2000 divers a year and that's a big impact. How do we reach the rest of the schools?

Sorry but this thread has gone on a long time. What CO reference was I going to find?

[Bubble Boy]

seahunter once bubbled...
I will direct our staff to address that apparent oversight by telling new divers to ask for certificates. I suppose that the PADI organization assumes the divers will frequent PADI stores which have some controls in place. I don't know why NAUI left that vital step out!

Seahunter, Behave!!!

you know you are just trying to change the subject with the NAUI reference. The NAUI code of ethics discusses air quality. I may be getting old to but if my fading memory serves me correctly you used to be a NAUI instructor who changed agencies to be able to teach the weekend wonder diver course.

[pufferfish]

Seahunter if you educated 2000 divers a year to ask for air certs from fill stations then that will be a very good start. I just think this thread has also served that purpose and I'm sure many divers will be asking their LDS for recent air certs all over the province. Believe me the situation around the province is pretty dismal with many shops having not tested for a couple of years. Like I said either the diving industry takes this seriously or someone else will step in and see that it does.

I had a look at the CO concentrations in the province to see if ambient exposure levels would be an issue in tank fills and it appears likely not except in certain areas. For the year 2000 the highest annual mean was at the Toronto West site at 1.8 ppm. The highest 8 hour value was 5 ppm in Mississauga and the highest one hour concentration was in downtown Windsor at 11.8. Fill stations in those areas may want to take note although much of this should be removed by a well maintained filter system. The good news is CO levels in the province's air has declined by about a third over the last decade despite an increase in car traffic volume.

In order to assess the potential effect of CO at depth it helps to know what health effects these low levels of exposure have on the surface at one atmosphere. This is an area of research that might reveal why the Canadian CSA breathing gas standard of < 5ppm CO was instituted while the Americans still use 10 ppm. Carbon monoxide has a very high affinity for hemoglobin the main oxygen carrying substance in the body and essentially prevents the blood from carrying oxyen to the tissues depending on the percentage of this carboxyhemoglobin (COHb) present. The main risk of even small amounts of CO as found in the ambient environment appear to be for the cardiovascular system. In "Carbon Monoxide Toxicity" by Penney (2000) they state the health effects of greatest concern clearly associated with CO levels you might be exposed to in any large city are cardiovascular. There was a reduced time to onset of angina and ECG changes in patients with coronary artery disease at levels as low as 3% COHb which are levels one can experience on a bad smog day in the urban environment or from smoking a cigaret. Interestingly exposure to cold seems worsen the effects of CO induced heart problems. There is other data showing even at these ambient levels of CO that exercise capacity is impaired in trained athletes. Seventy five percent of male diver fatalities (1995-2000 DAN data) were between the ages of forty and fifty nine, the age group at highest risk for heart disease. Take the typical Toby scenerio where you get a 55 year old guy who is overweight and may have a bit of coronary artery disease and throw him into forty degree water at eighty feet, with 10 ppm of CO in his tank, and a dive emergency requiring a sudden burst of exercise, and the guy may develop angina and not return to the surface. Give him a smoke and some exhaust from the boat before the dive and he certainly will have trouble responding to an unexpected situation. Many of these deaths are simply recorded as a heart attack or drowning as CO is not suspected.

We know less about low level CO toxicity than we do DCS and this is at the surface so until such time that the picture is clearer the best level of CO in a diver's tank is none. On top of that we know nothing about the interactions of CO with impurities like ozone, NO2 and S02 in a diver's air fill.

Cat, I am no expert in CO and your question about the physiology of CO at depth is a very good one, but one big black hole. You might try posting the topic on the medical forum and see what comes up but I think you will be pushing the knowledge envelope of even those guys like Dr. Deco and Saturation.

The only source I can find on the topic is in Carl Edmonds book on diving medicine so I will try and paraphrase what he says. He states that in addition to the hypoxic effect (low O2) of CO, it has a direct toxic effect at the cellular level. He states, "the toxic limits of CO at depth, and how they are modified by varying ambient and oxygen partial pressures, have not been established." It is felt that for divers breathing air, the higher partial pressure of O2 at depth tends to protect against the effects of increased CO pp at depth. The problem arises on surfacing when protection of the increased O2 carrying capacity is lost and the diver becomes acutely hypoxic. I suspect for the perfectly healthy young diver with no other health problems a CO level up to 10 or even 20 ppm is not going to cause a lot of problems other than maybe a headache on surfacing, however in that fifty year old overweight male who smokes and jumps into Lake Superior to a hundred feet after a long winter on the couch then watch out for trouble on surfacing.

Hope that adds more evidence that the goal should be no CO in a scuba fill especially for those 'older' divers which by definition one becomes on their 55th birthday :D

[seahunter]

Older diver eh!
I wonder why all the leaders and other guys around Scuba 2 get excited at the prospect of diving with the "older diver"?
Hoping to see me screw up I guess.

For the record, I have posted a notice on The Diving Board in the Administration Forum about this topic. Effectively that means all new divers in the future will be advised to ensure air fill stations they use have a current pure air certificate. I can safely say that this directive which MUST be followed by all S2K instructors WILL be followed and that is largely because they are a concerned and involved group of scuba professionals.

The posting is visible only to S2K staff but reads as follows:
"All future Open Water classes will include a specific reference to the importance of ensuring air used for scuba diving is pure and further that the diver is responsible for checking for a current certificate of air quality at any dive store from which he is getting tanks and/or air fills.
Every effort is to be made on Con-Ed courses or other S2K activities to share this information with certified divers."

I'm certain that someone (perhaps one of you) will start a similar topic in the general forum of The Diving Board for everyone to read.

http://www.scuba2000.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

I taught for several different agencies in the 60's, 70's and 80's. The weekend course was not envisioned prior to about 1990. It was however pretty obvious that PADI was becoming the leader in diver education and that any prudent businessman in the scuba industry should be part of the growth PADI was generating. The first 10 years that I taught under PADI the course was a pretty standard 6 to 8 week program.
My loyalty and admiration for NAUI, ACUC, CMAS, YMCA and others has not diminished but my decision was sound. There are no NAUI Pro Facilities in TO. I believe my friend Lawrence Beagan was the last.

[pufferfish]

Well that is a good start but too general a statement to be useful. Sounds like something a good bureaucrat would come up so as to appear to deal with the issue, but because of the vagueness of the message, the original purpose or intent is lost. This is one issue where the devil is in the details. Bland politically correct type statements are not in anyone's best interest and since when did you decide to become politically correct. You are willing to take a very strong stand I see on so many other controversial issues and argue them till the cows come home, but when there is an issue which truly matters to the divers of this province you obfuscate and fail to provide clear direction on this matter.

What is "current"? Every two years like most GTA shops, annually such as under the OUC air program, biannually as required by Ministry of Labour, or quarterly as required by 5 star PADI facilities. You are still misleading students by not teaching them what standard not only do you feel (please tell us) should be met, but also what the Ministry of Labour requires by law (biannual) from any facility with employees which effectively is any dive shop in Ontario.

You also don't specify to what standard the students should ask for. You yourself said the OUC test used some pretty old equipment so I assume you don't feel that is sufficient. Heck I don't even think they test for CO. The Ministry of Labour requires the biannual tests to meet CSA Z180.1 standards so why not tell your students this as that is the law in Ontario. Or should the bar be set at quarterly levels like S2K does? Why don't you set the bar where you feel it should be set, promote that, and let the other shops meet you there. Not to do so and let the novice diver assume all the other junk testing is OK is not only ducking the issue and passing the buck, but possibly putting your student's health at risk once they leave your shop. By saying divers are responsible for checking the quality of their air by asking for a recent air certification but not giving the details of what to check for is like telling a student in driver's education that he is responsible to maintain a safe speed on the highway but not tell him what a safe speed is.

May I suggest your notice read,"......,the diver is responsible for checking for a current certificate of air quality less than six months old and from an accredited lab to CSA Z180.1 standards at any dive store from which he is getting tanks and/or air fills."

That is a very clear and concise message which serves the students and dive community well. In fact why don't you get your first open water class next weekend in Toby to try your new Scuba2000 policy for air certification verification on the fill station used in Toby and report back to us whether they went diving or not. You seem to have one high standard for the shop, but yet take your students still under the auspices of S2K to fill stations which don't meet your standards or even those of the Ministry of Labour.
Do I smell a double standard?

[seahunter]

Don't I get any credit for being the first and only to try?

When I started teaching, new divers had to repeat Robert Boyle's laws by heart and state 3 examples of how they affect divers. Now they don't even hear the word 'embolism' and the safety record of scuba divers is better.
I don't think much is gained by explaining the testing system and standards. An awareness of the importance of good air and how to check the air quality at the LDS is sufficient.

We've not yet decided that a problem with air quality even exists. Other than some Macarthy-style, unsubstantiated claims, nothing has been forthcoming to indicate any diver has seen much less suffered fom bad air in Ontario. In the meantime, numerous divers have suffered from various forms of decompression illness.
Given that modern scuba training for novice divers includes only the information they need to dive safely and no more, where ought the emphasis be placed?

The standard for all dive stores ought to be the highest in accepted use in the industry under discussion - in this case quarterly tests as set by PADI and CGA Grade E. If you insist that we use Canadian institutional recommendations, that would be semi-annual tests to CSA Z180 for dive stores with employees or no tests at all for those run only by the owners.

Again it's obvious my choice for the direction to the leaders at S2K is correct. To go beyond that is to introduce debate not fact for the students.

Our first S2K event in Tobermory is in 2 weeks. Do you believe the air quality at the shops there is in doubt?

[eagleray2003]

Sorry SeaHunter being an owner- operator doesn't excuse you from the labor laws. You are still considered for Labour issues an employee.
Just quit friggin and being so defensive, send your air sample out to Maxxam they are not far from your shop get the test done post the results here for all to view if your air is so wonderful like the rest of your frickin operation you should pass with flying colours!

[seahunter]

Read the entire thread eagle AND the related 'Poll: Air Certificates'.
You'll soon see that the air at S2K exceeds any standards set, is tested more frequently that most and uses a top international air testing lab. Read further and you'll discover that I used Novamann Labs (now Maxamm) for years before you and the rest of the readers got into this controversy but I now use a better lab.
You post implies that I am trying to dodge my responsibility in this regard when in fact, I am setting the standard for other stores to try to beat. I'm not picking on you - simply asking that you read the thread which has raged for several weeks rather than criticise me based on your interpretation of a single post.
Anybody who's been here for a while agree?

When I'm entitled to employee benefits (UI, WCI, etc) I'm an employee. An owner is by definition NOT an employee and is not subject to the regs. If I die from breathing my own air, no one cares and least of all the 'crats at Queen's Park. I actually like it that way. My standards are higher than any politician's.

[pufferfish]

Well after all this bandwidth I can proudly say I have found my portable and reliable low reading CO monitor which will allow accurate and fast field readings of CO in a scuba fill whether on the shore or boat. The price of $140 Canadian makes this very much a device that any diver could purchase and add an additional level of safety above and beyond requesting a current air certification. My main use though will be to test fills when in places like Nicaragua and Costa Rica where most of my fills have been from gas compressors.

Most electric compressors with filters should not have any CO if properly maintained but that is a big "if" around this province so why not have a device with which you can test a tank fill in thirty seconds. What level of CO one should accept is open to debate but here are the current standards:

US Compressed Gas Association for Grade E air < 10ppm
Canadian CSA Z180.1 < 5ppm
Naui Modified CGA Grade E air standard < 2ppm

This CO detector reads from 0 to 70 ppm and has an electrochemical sensor which is very stable in heat and humidity allowing accurate readings in places like most southern dive locals.

One should be aware that the typical store bought CO detectors with a LCD readout in Canada and the US are not allowed by law to display CO until it reaches 30 ppm and not allowed to alarm until it has sensed 70 ppm for at least four hours. In other words you can be exposed to 69 ppm 24 hours a day and not know. This detector will give you basically real time CO levels from 0 to 70 ppm but you cannot buy it from a store as it is not UL approved since it does not meet the criteria stated above.

I have decided to test all fills down south and the fills I get in Ontario this summer just for curiosity sake. I will not dive with a CO level greater than 5 ppm and you will hear about it on this board if I find a fill with more than 10 ppm at a fill station.

The monitor arrived in 5 business days from Aeromedix. I spoke with the designer and he said there is no problem putting the monitor in a plastic bag and gently purging air to fill the bag with tank air. Just don't blast the sensor port. The sensor reads every six seconds so you will have a reading very quickly. It will only display a CO level greater than 5 ppm (saves battery power) but will display the value less than five if you press the test button.

And if you want to get your friend to quit smoking just have him breath into the sensor and see what is going into his lungs with every smoke.
There are no Canadian sources for the device.

CO monitor purchase info (http://www.aeromedix.com/index.php?_siteid=aeromedix&action=sku&sku=coex&_sessid=b268c170f722b0792443d0e715cb44ff)

[Butch103]

congrats on all your hard work working out for you. Finding such a sensor/monitor will no doubt help ease yours and others fears of poosible elevated levels of CO in their diving air.

Please let us know how well it works.

Seems like a relative inexpensive piece of safety gear, for those concerned.

[pufferfish]

The designer of this device Mr. G Kerr who is also considered one of the world experts on CO detection emailed me this morning to say the 'plastic bag' technique is both accurate and precise. They took known concentrations of CO in a bag and compared readings from this device to a very expensive industrial Draegar monitor and the readings "were within 1 ppm".

As for plastic bags the Seal 'Seeme' vinyl bags are good as one can see the display through the bag. These are available at most camping stores like Mountain Equipment Co-op
Bag (http://www.cascadedesigns.com/sealline/vinyl_bags.asp?Action=SeeBag)

Divers now have a new tool to reject or accept a tank fill while at home or away.