This came up in another thread and I wanted to make it as clear as possible because I feel it's important and there seemed to be some confusion over what I was saying... mia culpa!
What to do if your reg freeflows and you are wearing "standard" openwater gear (i.e. single 80 cft tank and single first stage with octopus and primary second stages, SPG, LP inflator etc. We will assume, your kit is serviced and you are diving with a competent and responsible buddy who is stable in the water.
When you reg starts to freeflow -- which is usually at the beginning of the dive, and we'll discuss why in a second -- signal your buddy... they should immediately realise what's wrong but use hand signals to tell them. The important thing here is to resist any urge you may have to bolt to the surface... that's your last resort and right now you do not have an emergency... you have a freeflow.
Anyhow, take your buddy's octopus, and shut down your tank... turn off the valve. At this point, your buddy should have contact with you... standard procedure when sharing gas, right. I would recommend she / he also controls your postition in the water column. If there's a wreck nearby or a line or a rock or something to hold onto, she should do so... you do not want to float to the surface right now... you're too busy.
Once the tank is switched off. The immediate problem is over. Get yourself settled. Slow down your breathing and assess the situation. How much gas did you lose? How much gas does you buddy have. Write it down on a slate or in your Wetnotes. This will take less than a minute and will calm you down. Now while holding your naughty first stage mouthdown, TURN YOUR VALVE BACK ON. Chances are good, it will not freeflow. You can now -- if you wish -- abort your dive in a safe and controlled fashion. If there's no creep from your reg, and the environment allows it, you might also go a little shallower and pass a few minutes there... go practice some drills!
OK. Why do most freeflows happen at the start of a dive? Stress on the firststage. Most divers breathe faster at the start of a dive. You are filling your BC and you may be putting gas into a dry suit. That's a lot of stress on a single first stage.
By the way, I support the idea that any dive deeper than 30 meters (100 feet) should be done with redundant gas supply.
Hope this clears things up... and like every other drill, this one is worth practicing.
Lastly, a non-standard disclaimer. What do I know about diving emergencies? Well, I haven't seen as many as some people I can name LOL.
What's written here is based on personal experience -- both teaching and diving -- and describes a "best practice." No such best practice can be guaranteed to be correct for every diver and every situation -- there is no silver bullet folks -- however, I do believe it's the right thing to do 99 times out of 100.
DivingGal
May 1st, 2003, 03:45 PM
Thanks for the excellent description, and clarification of what you meant in the Toby thread (http://www.scubaboard.com/t26351/s.html)
As for what else I can say? Keep the advise coming! I for one will welcome it. Particularly as it not only comes with "here is what you should do", but also "why you should do it" and "here is the mechanics"
Three cheers Doppler!
Big-t-2538
May 1st, 2003, 03:54 PM
The only suggestion I have is to be relaxed and balanced at the beginning of the dive....you really shouldn't be dumping air into your BC or suit until your at depth.
The other suggestion would be to practice practice practice this drill over and over again so when the situation arises, you can handle it.
The guy who I dive with on a regular basis practices this with me, and we have it down pat. We don't care too much where the free-flow happens, next time we get the opportunity, we're going to try it with blacked out masks.
MikeFerrara
May 1st, 2003, 04:12 PM
I wouldn't do it that way. It would work but most of the free flows I've seen stay free flows and turning the valve off and on don't do much. Well maybe it would thaw eventually if it free flowed because it's frozen.
If I'm diving a single output valve I'm not deep. After signaling an end to the dive I would head up breathing off the free flowing reg. You still have some time. If I got low on gas I would switch to buddy's alternate. If it's a reg freezing kind of a day having two breathing off of one reg is liable to cause the buddies reg to free flow also. I think one is enough.
Most standard rec gear (short hoses?) don't give much room to move.
diver gadget
May 1st, 2003, 04:17 PM
Just a question on your procedure. As you stated the begining of the dive is when you are most likely to free flow because of stress on the first stage.
By switching over to your buddys system after a free flow you could possibly be a little stressed yourself and breathing a little heavier. You are now switching over to your buddys system. Now you have two divers on one first stage, with one of the two divers probably breathing a little heavy. The odds now of your buddys first stage free flowing are pretty good with that much air passing through.
So to the question. What would you do if you have your buddys reg free flow while your reg is already free flowing??
I wonder if you might be better off to breath on your free flowing reg till back at the surface.
I can see valid points both ways!
Diver Gadget
Doppler
May 1st, 2003, 04:28 PM
diver gadget once bubbled...
Just a question on your procedure.
SNIPPED
So to the question. What would you do if you have your buddys reg free flow while your reg is already free flowing??
Diver Gadget
Valid point but the reason to practice drills is so that when the **** hit the fan, you are not stressed. My arguement is that at the point you switch to your buddy's octo, you are not stressed or should not be.
AND if switching to a buddy's octo is going to cause a freeflow, aren't we sending openwater divers into the frey with sub-standard systems... a reg freeflows because of a number of reasons most of them abborant. Of course you can contingency yourself out of the water... but that's a arguement for another day :)
Doppler
May 1st, 2003, 04:35 PM
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I wouldn't do it that way. It would work but most of the free flows I've seen stay free flows and turning the valve off and on don't do much. Well maybe it would thaw eventually if it free flowed because it's frozen.
If I'm diving a single output valve I'm not deep. After signaling an end to the dive I would head up breathing off the free flowing reg. You still have some time. If I got low on gas I would switch to buddy's alternate. If it's a reg freezing kind of a day having two breathing off of one reg is liable to cause the buddies reg to free flow also. I think one is enough.
Most standard rec gear (short hoses?) don't give much room to move.
Just my opinion Mike and I respect yours... regarding two breathing off a reg... see my pervious post... I honestly think a freeflow is an abborant episode. A well serviced reg -- read my first post, that's a condition -- will not freeflow unless coaxed. I have to disagree about turning off and on... my experience is that it does stop... and of course my advice is based on that.
Regular hose lengths... I thought everyone used a five-foot hose on their OW gear? ! ? ;)
Bottom line is, I would rather deal with the problem at depth while stable than go for the surface with malfunctioning equipment... because you still have to turn the **** off when you get there and it's messy!
SueMermaid
May 1st, 2003, 04:46 PM
I actually had this exact scenario at the end of a dive two years ago, in Cayman Brac, and it was sort of fun resolving it, as odd as that sounds. My buddy was the one with the freeflow. It made me feel good to know I was able to handle a minor emergency like that.
My buddy was clueless as to what to do and, although he had plenty of air and didn't miss any breaths, a little panicky, and had no idea that I had shut his tank off after giving him my octo.
I grabbed his arms and made him look at me in the eye. He calmed right down and we did our 15 foot stop with plenty of air to spare.
I hope it goes this well if that happens to me or my buddy again!
MikeFerrara
May 1st, 2003, 04:55 PM
You bring up some good points doppler. A couple more comments though...you didn't think it would be that easy did ya. LOL Things are slow.
Sad but true...lots of divers would be clumbsy at best trying to hang out doing shut downs and writing on slates. They would be in the bottom or shooting to the surface and end up seperated while one had his air off. Hey I see lots like this. And of course I agree this shouldn't be an issue but it is.
The first or second winter I was diving a freinds reg free flowed repeatedly and ruined several trips before he finally bought another. No one could fix it. Anyway if you shut the post down and back on the reg would be fine for about 3 breaths. Well sometimes it was ok above 20 ft also but sure enough by the time you hit 40 ft or so it was blowing. The point is, tis reg was ending the dive. He breathed it but he could have breathed mine as well.
I gues breath it or switch either way as long as it's done in a competant control mannor. I still worry about 2 people breathing on the same reg in cold water if you don't have to do it though. I've seen regs free flow because of divers adding too much air too fast to their bc even.
diver gadget
May 1st, 2003, 05:02 PM
Doppler once bubbled...
Valid point but the reason to practice drills is so that when the **** hit the fan, you are not stressed. My arguement is that at the point you switch to your buddy's octo, you are not stressed or should not be.
AND if switching to a buddy's octo is going to cause a freeflow, aren't we sending openwater divers into the frey with sub-standard systems... a reg freeflows because of a number of reasons most of them abborant. Of course you can contingency yourself out of the water... but that's a arguement for another day :)
Do they not still teach breathing from a free flowing reg in open water?? Even if you were not stressed and very calm, switching to your buddys reg in really cold water could very easily overload it. In warm water it would not be a problem.
I also agree with the shuting the valves off as it has been my experience as well that it has corected the free flow problem.
I have delt with free flowing regs using your described method. It has worked well for me. I just wonder if sometime it might not. I guess worst case is that you would both assend to the surface on free flowing regs.
MikeFerrara
May 1st, 2003, 05:10 PM
diver gadget once bubbled...
Do they not still teach breathing from a free flowing reg in open water?? Even if you were not stressed and very calm, switching to your buddys reg in really cold water could very easily overload it. In warm water it would not be a problem.
I also agree with the shuting the valves off as it has been my experience as well that it has corected the free flow problem.
I have delt with free flowing regs using your described method. It has worked well for me. I just wonder if sometime it might not. I guess worst case is that you would both assend to the surface on free flowing regs.
Yes. This is one of those little inconveniences that shouldn't represent any real danger either way you do it. If you breath it you may run low (shouldn't but) and may need to swithch anyway. Regardless none of the skills involved should present a big problem for the diver. Unfortunately that isn't always the case. I know divers who have been injured because they oanicked when their reg free flowed and bolted for the surface.
I still prefer my way though.:D
seahunter
May 1st, 2003, 07:06 PM
I was involved (like it or not) when this topic arose in another thread.
Everything you say is perfect Doppler but I think you need to put even more emphasis on practice. For an average diver to balance the shared air exercise and turn off his tank valve while maintaining position vertically and staying in contact with his buddy is a lot to expect.
It can be done easily and well WITH A LOT OF PRACTICE AND REGULAR REVIEW.
Now my comment and please recall that I like the idea.
Is it worth it? That is, agreeing that a well maintained regulator (using dry air we assume) will not likely freeflow, is the time and effort needed to practice and then regularly review this skill well spent or wasted?
Consider several things before answering. Do you dive with one buddy or different ones? Will you do this with them all or just the frequent ones? How do you reconcile that the accepted training for free flow is to hold the reg lightly in place and, while continuing to breath from the free flowing reg, make an ascent? That's what is required for new divers to master.
I'm not sure if the comment about the 60" hose was in jest but a lot of divers use them. At least a lot of divers buy them from us. However, the vast majority including all new divers still use a standard 'long' octo hose (it's about 4" longer than the main reg).
Dundas
May 1st, 2003, 09:25 PM
I have had two free flows while diving cold water, both were at about 100 feet.
The first was early in my dive career, and needless to say (and quite sadly) I did not handle it very well. My reg free flowed at about 100 feet, I did what we practiced in the training, I took part of the mouth piece out of my mouth and sipped on the air, as we practiced in the pool. HOWEVER, at that point I got a mouth full of water which i choked on, next my tank got caught on the wreck, at this point i started to panic (unfortunatly). But fortunately I had a great dive buddy that smacked me in the head at which point I calmed down. We did a normal ascent while i was breathing my buddies octupus (which I guess isn't normal). At this point I was ready to quit diving. I didn't but it took a while to rebuild my confidence. Looking back on it, I definetly didn't need to panic, but it was overwhelming. I would handle things much much differently today.
Towards the end of last season I was diving again in very cold water in 100 feet. My reg started free flowing, I singled to my buddy the problem and that it was time to go up. He then left me and went to the ascent line. I did a normal free ascent while breathing from the reg (NOTE this time instead of taking the reg part way out, i left it in, with very lose lips). I even did a safety stop for 3 minutes, came up with 200 psi left. Free flowed the entire way. I did not panic, but wasn't completely happy my buddy left me. he came up a short time later wondering where I went.
The following weekend I did another cold dive to 100 feet. I went over with my buddy what we need to do if one of us has a free flow, we'll get together, the buddy without the free flow get's his octupus ready, and we do a free ascend together, without going back to the ascent line. If the free flowing buddy runs out of air, the other diver will have the octupus ready. In this case, my buddy had the free flow, but for some reason thought he could fix it at depth. He played with his reg for a long time at depth ~ 100 ft. I continued to signal to go up, had my octupus ready for him in case he needed it. He then motored for the ascent line at a speed I couldn't keep up with, he went past the line and kept going. When I caught up to him he was again playing with his reg at the bow of the wreck (way past the ascent line, but at least he stopped). At this point (and continuing to signal to him to go up) I smacked him on the head, he then realized something was wrong and we did a proper ascent. Everything worked out.
Moral of the story, don't screw around with the reg, get together with your buddy, end the dive, do a safe ascent. In most cases, there's enough air to do a safe ascent. The more you play with the reg at depth, the faster the air escapes, the more it free flows. Second moral, although buddies are great, they are not always there when needed, be prepared to look after yourself. I am planning to do cold dives at 100 feet or greater with a pony bottle.
Note: anyone have a pony they want to sell me.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
Doppler
May 1st, 2003, 10:10 PM
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
You bring up some good points doppler. A couple more comments though...you didn't think it would be that easy did ya. LOL Things are slow.
Sad but true...lots of divers would be clumbsy at best trying to hang out doing shut downs and writing on slates. They would be in the bottom or shooting to the surface and end up seperated while one had his air off. Hey I see lots like this. And of course I agree this shouldn't be an issue but it is.
SNIPPED
Mike: I'd have never kept going if I weren't a dumb optimist (and if it weren't for dumb ass luck). So my scenerio is the best practice... the one I think we should aim for... where the bar should be set. I agree with you matey... and seahunter... there are CFs all over the place and it's a wonder we don't see more carnage, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna accept it!
As an aside... or more of an infront really, we all know that every regulator built can be made to freeflow... simple gas laws... actually simple physics. The simplest way is to buy your air from a shop that doesn't look after its compressor... now, there's another story... Let's start a thread about acceptable dew points?
And my way's best :D (HAHAHAHAHA)
Leaving for NY in the morning so I'll read you guys on Monday! Take care.
Doppler
wb416
May 2nd, 2003, 10:37 AM
Doppler once bubbled...
[snip]
Anyhow, take your buddy's octopus, and shut down your tank... turn off the valve. At this point, your buddy should have contact with you... standard procedure when sharing gas, right. I would recommend she / he also controls your postition in the water column. If there's a wreck nearby or a line or a rock or something to hold onto, she should do so... you do not want to float to the surface right now... you're too busy.
[snip]
Write it down on a slate or in your Wetnotes. This will take less than a minute and will calm you down. Now while holding your naughty first stage mouthdown, TURN YOUR VALVE BACK ON.
[snip]
Doppler,
Hope the weekend class in NY went well.
I have a question regarding the procedure.
Shouldn't each diver be responsible for their own bouyancy rather than holding on to or "controlling" each other?
After all, if they are proficient enough to shut down their own valve or write on a slate or wetnotes, it seems they should be able to hold position in the water column without assistance.
regards, Bob
tinman
May 2nd, 2003, 03:25 PM
Three times this past winter in 29-32 o F Inland Lake water, I have experienced freeflows during OOA drills at safety stops. Buddy breathing from my 7' long hose Abyss, me on necklaced Octo. The point of the exercise was to find out at what threshold this first stage (environmental sealed Mares MR22, detuned to 125 psi) could handle two divers, even with sequenced, alternate breathing without the added load of drysuit nor BCD inflation super cooling the reg., nor I might add the extra load of stressed divers. I will hopefully have a chance to test it again this weekend since the water has warmed up to near 40 o F which is more typical of what Great Lake diving is below the thermocline.
In all instances, I had no problem breathing from the freeflowing Octo (detuned to 2.0 cracking pressure). Abyss 1st stage has never freeflowed in numerous other dives under same conditions. Reg. was serviced a few weeks before two of these events so that is not a contributing factor.
I wanted to raise these experiences as a caveat for those considering Doppler's approach. At greater depth, I gather as Seahunter has pointed out, even more supercooling effect comes in to play due to higher volume passing through the first stage, therefore a heightened risk of free flow. Then you have a shutoff reg, and a freeflowing one...not insurmountable problems but somewhat worrisome depending on your dive conditions.
Doppler: I have shut off my supply and relied on a trusted buddy to exit but haven't been deep during an occurence. In two of these instances, I just continued our normal exit. With a trusted buddy on or near an upline while deep, I would consider my supply being shut off in the hopes it would be ok above the thermocline or after some moments getting to the exit point/upline. Also would help to prevent the tank getting too light or risking water in reg/tank from draining psi too low.
I would however, share Mike's concerns if it was a free ascent and certainly would not consider shutting my supply off with an occasionally or inexperienced buddy where there is a higher risk of separation or panic on their part leaving me breathing water. That said, once at a safety stop height and both comfortably floating (or drifting), I would proceed with tank shutdown to prevent the tank getting too light or risking water in reg/tank from draining psi because a CESA would be easy to perform at this point if required. If my buddy had the problem, I would let him make the call as to whether they want to blow the safety stop. This approach would become more certain in my mind should the buddy be diving a typical rec. config. with relatively short octo...I'm open to debate as these situations are very real possibilities in our waters...
All of the above, presumes non-overheaded, non-deco diving with single AL80s or equivalent...
