Does DIR work for every cave?

MrBlue once bubbled...


Ahh something worth talking about.

Mike, what caves? and why specifically wouldn't a DIR approach work?

Isn't Wakulla the deepest/longest around? It seems to me that the DIR system is working pretty well there.

Seriously though, if you don't mind this would be a great discussion.

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First off, I have only had a brief introduction to it myself and I'm not an expert however I can get you one. There is one already on the board. PM Duncan Price and get him to tell you or us about his cave diving.

Kentucky is loaded with virgin cave as are many states and countries. Cold, sometimes Zero Vis, Sometimes very small as in having to wiggle through hundreds of feet of break down before it opens back up. You often must traverse thousands of feet of killer dry cave terain packing your gear to get to the water. Once you pass the sump you will likely find another hundreds or thousands of feet further on. Sometimes you need to climb a mountain with your equipment to get to the water. Howe is your vertical climbing skills. Again there may be vertical ascents or decents 8 hours into the cave.

I dived one cave that was big enough for backmount and clear enough for two divers to see each other but we first had to use ropes to get our gear up the mountain. LOL We only went 5 hundred feet or so before we came to a restriction that no backmount diver could pass. The line kept going though. Did I mention that this all done with heavy gloves cause the water is cold.

If you know anyone with the skills and guts I know a guy who would really love some help. He has more cave than he knows what to do with and no one who wants to help him dive it. Oh, it isn't deep enough for a depth record or long enough (underwater) for a penetration record but....

Check out the UK CDG (cave diving group)
Read "The Darkness Beckons" by M. Farr if you want to know how cave diving was really born and developed.

Hell, just ask Divesherpa about some of the Florida cave he is diving.

See how the other half lives

Sure.

For some reason I thought you were referring to caves that you *could* dive DIR but for some reason on other the diver thought it might be 'better' to dive in another style.

I understand the whole sump thing, and caves that are no-mount or side-mount and I understand that those type of caves/conditions are not DIR.

I read Duncan's posts over at cavediver.net and Have read many articles and books about 'other styles' of diving. I'm not a brainwashed DIR fanatic. But that's off topic.

Let's pursue this line of thinking though. Are there caves, where DIR *could* be used that you or someone else considers another gear configuration safer? and what are those conditions and reasons to re-configure yourself (no sumps, no-mount, or side-mount as we know you can't DIR in thos environments).

Braunbehrens once bubbled...



I'm sure there are places where only squirrels can get in. I wouldn't dive those either ;-)

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Well I'm not sure how much of it I will do either. You really need to be a caver not just a cave diver. However, they are caves. The people who are going in them are explorers in the truest sense of the word. When they run into a problem they invent a solution and continue on. They can't e-mail some one for the answer. They would be called strokes on Quest.

Where's Madmole when we need him? Probably got his head in a hole somewhere...
Rick

Is it DIR when you are forced to remove your doubles and push them ahead of you to get through a restriction?

No.

Oh well, at least that keeps the lemmings out of my favorite caves.

I would like to see DIR cavers here in Portugal (Spain or the UK).
You can't do it without helmets and valve tanks protections.

Sue

Hi Sue,

i hear the same from all other european countries.
But for example take the Moraig in Spain.
Helmet ? Valve guards ? Why ?

For dry caving ok, but if the cave is really narrow, you are not going fast anyway, so also there i see no need.

Michael

Morning all...I see my name being bandied about...

Firstly, my credentials: 20 years caving (horizontal, vertical, digging, mapping, photography, camping, blowing things up), 15 years cave (sump) diving. 460+ cave dives. Nitrox, trimix, scooter, homebuilt rebreather - never done a course in my life. Secretary of Welsh Section Cave Diving Group and one of its examiners. World's Greatest Stroke. However, I speak for myself...as if I had to tell you that.

Secondly, I'm not an expert on DIR but I've read JJ's book. I'm not going to preach to the converted, but from what I understand there are two aspects to DIR - a Hogarthian rig and a team-based, healthy lifestyle diving ethos. I can't pretend that I don't smoke, drink to excess and fool around with women but I recognise that a high standard of physical fitness is required for this activity. My last trip (Saturday) was a 9.5 hour "tourist trip" beyond 4 sumps (none longer than 60 ft). The first sump was 2 miles from daylight and we (4) carried all our gear (a single set of a 21 cu ft cylinder/regulator etc. each) into and out of the cave Alpine style. I don't see anyone doing that with doubles.

However, the team based approach works. We all dived solo, one after the other through each sump - in fact we had to dig out two sumps to pass them. Buddy diving would not work, but I think that you will agree that we were "Doing it Right" under the conditions we were faced with.

Now, using the above as an example, was our gear Hogarthian? We wore:

* a single 21 cu ft cylinder side-slung from a caving belt which also carried a battery pack for a headlight.
* wetsuit hood, mask, gloves, dive knife.
* dive torch (on helmet) in addition to caving light.
* 5 mm caving wetsuit, wellington boots (no fins).
* only one person wore lead, a couple of people had safety reels but to be honest you'd have a hard time loosing the line (8 mm climbing rope by the way).

I guess that you'd consider this pretty minimalist = Hogarthian.

I hope that you'd still agree that we were "Doing it Right" - under the circumstances. I've heard it said that "if you can't dive DIR then you shouldn't be there". It might not be DIR as you know it, but we wanted to be there and adopted the most appropriate strategy for getting on the with job. Just because man doesn't have gills does mean he shouldn't dive - humans have brains to enable them to build SCUBA gear. The UK style of sump diving has evolved to accomodate the particular conditions faced by the British Cave diver in the same way that the style of cave diving promoted by GUE has evolved to suit conditions in Florida.

I'm not big on records. Pursuit of glory tends to shorten one's life. I will however give due credit to the explorers of Wakulla (and also Cocklebiddy - which is longer) for finding the means to perform these feats of human endevour. There are plenty of other cave divers who have done things more extreme but maybe not as long and/or deep.

mind how you go...

Duncan

PS. I'm up for a trip to Kentucky with my mates...

db8us

You're right, you can't progress fast, but as you have narrow restrictions to negociate you need the guards and helmet.

And I'm talking about cave diving (not dry caving).

As far as I know (and I haven't been in all systems) there's only one cave where you don't need helmets and valve guards, because there aren't many restrictions to cross. Anyway even there i always wear the helmet.

i regret I don't have pics but Portuguese caves are very similar at the ones you find in certains pictures at www.cavediver.net

Sue