Air Quality Certificate [Archive]

seahunter

May 9th, 2003, 04:20 AM

Good point GTA - the French mentality which is evident in Quebec as well, is to allow the government to decide what's best for the people rather than the opposite. The ridiculous rules that exist in Quebec re scuba are the result. No one in their right mind would say they make diving in Quebec safer. More expensive - yes!

This same attitude prevails in Ottawa right now (many years of leadership by Francophone lawyers) - basically that the politicians know best what's good for Canadians so they don't even ask us anymore but simply make up laws, enact them without our OK and sit back smiling at what a good job they're doing. An example that is close to my heart but is also proven to be a complete and utter boondoggle even by Liberal MP's is the so called 'Gun Law'.
Enacted as a crime law to reduce crime it actually increased the number of criminals in Canada by approximately 14% since January 2003; touted as costing $55 million to set up and thereafter be self-supporting it has cost one billion dollars so far and the cash register is still ringing; promising to reduce gun crimes - well, just read the Toronto Sun and the entire issue was forced on Canadians by the dictator Chretien.
What unbelieveable twist of logic makes a politician think that the solution to crime is a new law? A criminal by definition and intent doesn't obey the law. There have been effective guns laws in Canada since the early 50's but criminals ignore them. The solution is to pass a new, very expensive law for them to ignore?!! I suppose once we've convinced Ottawa the new law doesn't work, their solution will be to pass another new law. The only people following all these laws are the law abiding people (this ain't rocket science!) and they have to pay for all this crap too!
In this case dicator is the only appropriate word since JC forces the MPs (your elected representatives) to back every bill to increase the spending for it. If you think Canada is a democracy, this one bill (there are many others) must force you to re-consider regardless of your political leanings. Your local MP was elected to represent the people of the riding (your interests) in parliament but is forced to vote with Chretien. Your MP votes as Chretien says - not as is best for you and your neighbors!
That my friends, is not democracy!! Being given an opportunity to vote every 4 years is not democracy if the person you elect does not support your wishes - that's dictatorship! Ask the Cubans - they had an election last year too. Funny how JC and Fidel are such good buddies.
You want laws? How about a law that allows us to kick out politicians who are elected based on their promises but don't follow through? Chretien was elected on a single promise to eliminate the GST. Hello!!
If a businessman in any business (even scuba) promised something and didn't deliver, he'd be in court instantly. Politicians? Ha! They must laugh at us in their exclusive clubs and resorts. And we pay for the whole damn thing!! You want to give them to power to run the sport of scuba?

I'm not paranoid about politicians and laws - I'm also not blind and stupid!
Scuba has enjoyed almost 50 years of non-interference from the government and the safety of the diving public has increased steadily from very good to excellent over those years.
Where's the beef!

Education is always the answer GTA.
New divers are taught to watch for funny smelling air which is not bad advice. They should be taught to check their LDS air certificate every time they go in.
Make it the law and the unscrupulous store owners will simply post a false certificate. Make it the law and divers will think everything's OK and stop watching out for themselves.
Yeah! A law will really help!!! BTW, who's gonna' pay for this law. Do you think for a minute the general public will asked to pay for a 'scuba diving' law? How's your Florida real estate coming?

Actually that's not a joke anymore. If I'd bought some of that overpriced swamp in Florida 25 years ago when I had a chance, I'd be retired now. Is this how these threads jump around? From the ice conditons in Tobermory through bad air fills to Florida real estate!
Good night. It's 4:45 am and tomorrow's Friday at the dive store. Want to trade jobs?

Bubble Boy

May 9th, 2003, 09:19 AM

seahunter once bubbled...
the French mentality which is evident in Quebec as well, is to allow the government to decide what's best for the people rather than the opposite.
Free dental for ALL children 11 years old and younger and universal $5 per day daycare. Them nasty quebecers! I am envious et je me souviens.

SneakyB'tard

May 9th, 2003, 11:57 AM

Check your fire, Check your fire.....your rounds are hitting everything but the target.

"(many years of leadership by Francophone lawyers)"

Seahunter, you are starting to sound as intelligent as the US Senate. Yes, I would like some Freedom fries please.

seahunter

May 9th, 2003, 12:00 PM

FREE?!!
I was right bubble. You ARE part of the problem.

I suppose you are one of the millions who think that 'free' means Chretien is paying for these 'benefits' out of his own outrageous salary. Even if he was it wouldn't be free since WE PAY HIS SALARY!

There is no free!! If the Quebec taxpayers have decided they want the gov't to use their own money through taxes to provide dental care for the kids of Quebec, that's great. It isn't free, in fact, if gov't administered, it undoubtedly costs more than a private group plan. N'est pas?
I wonder if the people of Quebec had a say or was this a 'free' gift to the people (using their money to buy it) as a pre-election promo. Do you suppose the majority of the people of Quebec have kids under 5?

Free health care - isn't that why my taxes are so high?
Free education - in fact, 60% of my taxes go to pay for that 'free' benefit (60% of that is for salaries!).

Free air fills at S2K? Now that's free!!

seahunter

May 9th, 2003, 12:21 PM

I am not insulting anyone sneaky, just stating facts.
The number of francophones (their term not mine!) in parliament is 4 times the percentage that Quebecers are of the Canadian population. How do you suppose that happened? Do you think Quebecers would accept it if the opposite were true?
Why is the portion of the federal investment in Quebec almost twice what it is for any other province? I guess they pay twice as much tax!

I'm wrong you say.... Check the list of PMs you may remember:

Trudeau - a Quebec lawyer (his minister of justice was JC)
Clark - NOT a Quebecer. PM for 9 months.
Trudeau - see above
Turner - a Quebec lawyer
Mulroney - a Quebec lawyer
Campbell - a BC lawyer. PM for 5 months
Chretien - a Quebec lawyer

Since 1968 (35 years) Canada has been dictated to by Quebec lawyers except for 14 months.

A little salt on that crow helps it go down.

Bubble Boy

May 10th, 2003, 01:22 AM

seahunter once bubbled...
FREE?!!
I was right bubble. You ARE part of the problem.

I suppose you are one of the millions who think that 'free' means Chretien is paying for these 'benefits' out of his own outrageous salary. Even if he was it wouldn't be free since WE PAY HIS SALARY!

There is no free!! If the Quebec taxpayers have decided they want the gov't to use their own money through taxes to provide dental care for the kids of Quebec, that's great. It isn't free, in fact, if gov't administered, it undoubtedly costs more than a private group plan. N'est pas?
I wonder if the people of Quebec had a say or was this a 'free' gift to the people (using their money to buy it) as a pre-election promo. Do you suppose the majority of the people of Quebec have kids under 5?

Free health care - isn't that why my taxes are so high?
Free education - in fact, 60% of my taxes go to pay for that 'free' benefit (60% of that is for salaries!).

Free air fills at S2K? Now that's free!!
Is it not an election year in your province? Did your premier not announce that he was letting all the old farts off from paying education taxes regardless of income. No, you are right as usual, lets have two tier medical systems and two tier education systems and end up incarrcerating the working class down the road.

Please explain to me why you give FREE air. Why do you use air as the loss leader to get people into your store? Why not free regulator servicing or free beer?

seahunter

May 10th, 2003, 09:43 AM

I don't believe in 2 tier. I believe in multi-tier. You get what you can afford. The government can help those who are TRULY indigent. Thus, those who don't want to work get nothing; regular folks like you (I assume) and I get decent care; rich bastards get top notch care. And why not? I derserve better than the bums (the TRUE bums - not the really unfortunate ones who I'd be willing to help - if we can find the two of them); if someone has been exceptionally fortunate or hard working and successful, they should be able to get their reward for their efforts and get something better. What's the logic in saying to the rich that they can't have really good care but that they must pay so the bums can?

Air fills don't cost me directly; regulator service does and is part of my income base; the free beer is very appealing but illegal. I suppose I could apply for a liquor licence and post it beside the pure air certificate and then you could choose which you'd prefer - a free $5 air fill or a free $5 can of cold beer to drink while you watch your tank get filled slowly. The more beer you drink the better your fill.

pufferfish

May 10th, 2003, 10:53 AM

I am not so sure that providing 'free' air is in the long term interest of divers overall. I understand the logic of using it as a loss leader at your store which makes perfect business sense, but on a subconscious level may undermine the importance of how air quality should be seen by the diver. When someone doesn't pay for something, like in healthcare they come to accept lower quality and don't question anything because the service provided is 'free'. Because you are giving the air away divers may be less likely to question the quality of that air as it is 'free'. It is a perception issue.

Also indirectly rather than raising the bar for air standards in the Province you are likely contributing to a gradual erosion of those standards. There is always a compromise between profit and safety in this world but as other shops are forced to compete with you on 'free' air and offer 'cheaper' air they may be tempted to forego filter changes, compressor maintenance, and air cert testing so as to lower the cost to produce their air.

I just think as a leader in the dive industry (I think?) you should be raising the bar for the quality of air we breath. I think you grossly underestimate divers by thinking we do not care about the quality of fills we get. I would much rather see you charge for fills, have the latest air filtration system, and advertise this fact rather than creating a gimmick that symbolically lowers the quality of air we all breath.

Give me the free beer instead but charge me a fair price on your part for a high quality fill :)

SneakyB'tard

May 10th, 2003, 12:24 PM

I don't believe in 2 tier. I believe in multi-tier. You get what you can afford. The government can help those who are TRULY indigent. Thus, those who don't want to work get nothing; regular folks like you (I assume) and I get decent care; rich bastards get top notch care. And why not? I derserve better than the bums (the TRUE bums - not the really unfortunate ones who I'd be willing to help - if we can find the two of them); if someone has been exceptionally fortunate or hard working and successful, they should be able to get their reward for their efforts and get something better. What's the logic in saying to the rich that they can't have really good care but that they must pay so the bums can?

I can't take anything you say seriously anymore Seahunter.....I guess those that have a disability are bums? How about those that are displaced workers over 50 with no skills other than sweeping floors, pumping tanks or retail???

Come on ,devils advocate or not, that's too far off topic.

pufferfish

May 10th, 2003, 12:49 PM

Free air like free sex may certainly be tempting, but there are many hidden risks the naive may regret after the fact.

'The eyes can't see what the brain doesn't know' :boom:

seahunter

May 10th, 2003, 07:15 PM

Easy Sneaky!
Wouldn't they qualify as "truly unfortunate"?
Re-read the post - I said those that don't WANT to work.

I have a heart - I just don't have enough money to support all the politicians AND all the bleeding hearts and have any left over for my own family.
I don't believe in giving able-bodied people money to sit at home -how's that? Can you live with explanation? Give them money so they can live but also give them something to do. At least educate them so they can do something for themselves.

seahunter

May 10th, 2003, 07:17 PM

Good analogy puffer.
Take the free air and definately take the free sex BUT check to be sure both are clean first.
Right!!

UpperCanDiver

May 10th, 2003, 09:06 PM

You have to boil people before having sex with them now. You think we could at least get clean air

SneakyB'tard

May 12th, 2003, 08:38 AM

Okay Seahunter, I misunderstood you. I see your point. Lets all get back on topic ...Air quality certificates.

pufferfish

May 12th, 2003, 10:42 AM

Where are all the other dive shop owners chiming in and advertising to Ontario divers that they do quarterly testing, possibly biannual testing as required by law, or even annual testing? No there is a strange silence out there from other fill station owners as they are embarassed and potentially liable for the no testing program they currently have.

How about Ontario divers go out this week before the season gets underway in earnest and ask at their local dive shops to see an air certificate from an accredited canadian lab less than six months old. Please post the name of the shop that has one and divers will frequent that shop. It will be good for business. I am particularly interested in shops from areas where there are a lot of dive tourists like Toby, Brockville, and Kingston.

I have a feeling though there won't be but a handful of fill stations even meeting this basic biannual requirement for testing which should concern Ontario divers very much.

Bubble Boy

May 12th, 2003, 11:52 AM

pufferfish once bubbled...
Where are all the other dive shop owners chiming in and advertising to Ontario divers that they do quarterly testing, possibly biannual testing as required by law, or even annual testing? No there is a strange silence out there from other fill station owners as they are embarassed and potentially liable for the no testing program they currently have.

How about Ontario divers go out this week before the season gets underway in earnest and ask at their local dive shops to see an air certificate less than six months old. Please post the name of the shop that has one and divers will frequent that shop. It will be good for business. I am particularly interested in shops from areas where there are a lot of dive tourists like Toby, Brockville, and Kingston.

I have a feeling though there won't be but a handful of fill stations even meeting this basic biannual requirement for testing which should concern Ontario divers very much.

Qualify that and add "by an ACCREDITED CANADIAN lab" otherwise you will get all sorts of junk back.

UpperCanDiver

May 12th, 2003, 01:18 PM

I don't know about Rockport or the two Mallorytown shops but Brockville air is good. They should be anyway..are they a PADI 5 star?

pufferfish

May 12th, 2003, 01:55 PM

UpperCanada, do you have proof that "Brockville air is good"?
We are looking for accurate postings from divers who have visited their local dive shops and seen an air certificate less than six months old from an accredited Canadian lab. No hearsay please.

Being a PADI 5 star facility means very little. There is no monitoring of compliance from head office in California. If they are such a facility then ask to see an air certificate less than three months old from an accredited Canadian lab as that is the standard they are required to meet. I think you will be lucky if you find a cert less than twelve months old.

eagleray2003

May 12th, 2003, 02:44 PM

Have seen the certificate it is current is from a Canadian accredited lab and says it meets csa z180.1

pufferfish

May 12th, 2003, 02:52 PM

EagleRay thank you very much for our first sighting, but can you please state the name of the shop and the location.

eagleray2003

May 12th, 2003, 03:56 PM

The answer to your question Pufferfish is The Dive Center in Ottawa.

UpperCanDiver

May 12th, 2003, 04:00 PM

Perhaps Doppler could inform us on the Mallorytown shop's air. I think he is adviser on the air and blending for that shop.Above and Beyond is good too but I don't know if they are pumping this year. I though Brockville was good-- Thanks Eagle for the info. I have never had a problem in the area and think that the quality is superb. I also got air from the shop at the Motel in Rockport and had no problems with those guys.

SneakyB'tard

May 12th, 2003, 04:05 PM

I am not sure I would even use the air from that trailer in Rockport to inflate the tires of my car!
Any proof of the good air UpperCandiver?
:wacko:

pufferfish

May 12th, 2003, 05:02 PM

Thank you Eagle Ray for getting the ball going. As there is no monitoring at all of air standard compliance in the province at this point in time it is up to US, the divers of Ontario to ensure compliance and to patronize those shops that recognize the importance of providing clean air. Just saying air at this shop or that shop is "good" is not good enough. The people of Walkerton thought their water was good too until they stopped testing the water and monitoring compliance broke down.

Have a look at the Dive Center's web site home page and one can see the standard that all shops should aspire to for starters. We can see the accredited Canadian lab used and the standard to which the air is tested. I would like to see eventually the most recent air cert included on the web site as well.
Dive Center (http://www.divecenter.ca/)

Three chears for the Dive Center.

That is one shop in Ontario. Who's next?

pufferfish

May 12th, 2003, 05:28 PM

Two CSA standard air certification tests per year: $495 CDN

Greater peace of mind for Ontario divers,.............. Priceless

Source for lab cost was Maxxam analytics. Other certified labs are Seatech and Cantest.

seahunter

May 12th, 2003, 06:33 PM

Please direct me to the specific reference that requires me to use a Canadian lab. I used Novamann in Mississauga for several years and will NOT go back.

List Scuba 2000 as a pure air station with four (4) annual air tests that exceed CSA Z180.1 plus on-line monitoring. Both the certs and the air monitor are visible to the diving public at all times.

Bubble Boy

May 13th, 2003, 12:22 AM

seahunter once bubbled...
Please direct me to the specific reference that requires me to use a Canadian lab. I used Novamann in Mississauga for several years and will NOT go back.

List Scuba 2000 as a pure air station with four (4) annual air tests that exceed CSA Z180.1 plus on-line monitoring. Both the certs and the air monitor are visible to the diving public at all times.
You can't be serious. What country/planet do you live in?? Which developing country should we pick this time to do our test? You do mean in-line testing do you not?

Please explain why you would not go back. Did samples fail?

Can you outline the sampling proceedure for all of us that are not dive shop owners.

Chet

May 13th, 2003, 01:40 AM

SneakyB'tard:
I am interested in the trailer in Rockport, I got a nitrox fill there last year. They had lots of filters and Haskels and helium and O2. I though they were OK.
Be Safe
Chet

SneakyB'tard

May 13th, 2003, 09:28 AM

I saw an air cert from Upper Canada Scuba in the trailer.

Unfortunatly, the compressor the cert was for was still in GTA. Also the presence of filters does not mean good air. The filters must be packed by trained professionals and done on a regular basis.
I should point out that my remarks were a bit flip so perhaps someone that knows more about the 'trailer' could give details.

Maybe UpperCanDiver has some info?

pufferfish

May 13th, 2003, 11:54 AM

The most common excuse I have heard why a shop has not done any certification testing for years is that the Ontario Underwater Council used to do it and no longer does. What ever happened to self-responsibility in the dive industry. If you have employees in Ontario you are responsible for meeting the new CSA Z180.1 standard twice a year. That excuse about the OUC no longer coming around is about as lame as, "but officer I forgot to renew my auto liability insurance because my spouse did it last year."

Just so all those complacent dive shop owners don't have any more lame duck excuses about what their obligations are and where to get testing done here is a link to some info from Maxxam analytics in pdf format.
Maxxam Air Testing (http://www.maxxam.ca/techbulletins/cbatesting2.pdf)

Doppler

May 13th, 2003, 12:38 PM

UpperCanDiver once bubbled...
Perhaps Doppler could inform us on the Mallorytown shop's air. I think he is adviser on the air and blending for that shop.Above and Beyond is good too but I don't know if they are pumping this year. I though Brockville was good-- Thanks Eagle for the info. I have never had a problem in the area and think that the quality is superb. I also got air from the shop at the Motel in Rockport and had no problems with those guys.

Can't say anything about the air in brockville (I did get a fill there a couple of weeks ago and the certs seemed in order and they were very helpful), and I know nothing about the trailer at Rockport... do tell!

But I can vouch for the air quality at DiveTech in Mallorytown. Like everyone else here in Ontario now, they have their air checked every 6 months and there is a bottle on its way for analysis as I write this.

Dan is able to give Nitrox and Trimix fills and -- for what it's worth -- I use him almost exclusively when I'm in that area.

I have also got fills from Seahunter's store in Richmond Hill. Safe and helpful.

One small point about the cost of getting air from uncertified sources... I lent a pair of OMS 85 tanks to a student -- actually a graduate from a deco class -- and when I got them back stood them in my garage over the winter. Come spring, noticed the hydro was due in a month or so and so rather than use them on a quarry checkout, sent them for Hydro. There was almost 500 ml of carbon, water and filter medium in them. End result: Tanks written off; I'm out of pocket for a set of tanks; There's a shop out there pumping poison!

Thanks

pufferfish

May 13th, 2003, 01:20 PM

Doppler thanks for post. It is divers like yourself who do a lot of travel in the province that can really affect change by only filling at stations who can show you a six month or better yet a three month cert. No cert, no business,...full stop.

That is a downright scary story about your tanks. What happened to the student who used them? I trust that you or the student reported this to the relevant authorities. It is stories like those which I am finding have become quite common in this province yet as no one is keeping tabs either by industry or government we really don't know the true extent of the problem.

So we now have three Ontario shops which provide 'certified' air
1. Dive Center in Ottawa
2. Scuba2000 in Toronto
3. DiveTech in Mallorytown (still need confirmation this is by accredited Canadian lab to CSA z180.1)

How about any info from the two shops up in Tobermory?

Bubble Boy

May 13th, 2003, 04:56 PM

Rons Scuba in Cornwall and Dolphinos in Ottawa are both Z-180 compliant (recent certs) from Maxxam Analytics an accredited Cdn lab.

seahunter

May 15th, 2003, 10:34 AM

Bubble, before I begin let me say again that I am a proud Canadian but I do not let that fact handicap my ability to be reasonable and logical nor interfere with my business decisions.

Air Test Standards were developed in the USA (can we agree that the USA is a developed country or shall I point out that whatever happens there occurs in Canada between 3 months and 2 years later?); all the test equipment that I and you use, in fact, all that is available, is manufactured and tested in the USA; all the materials for filtering are manufactured in the USA; the federal accreditation for the air analysis labs in the USA is an international accreditation and includes equivalency to the lab standards of most countries of the world (including the CSA which is generally listed after the standards of the other larger and more recognized countries like the UK, Europe, Japan, etc). My point is that there is no Canadian air test standards, test equipment, filtering media, in fact, nor air test industry that is of Canadian origin. The CSA is pretty much ignored internationally unlike the CGA, UL, etc.

Suggesting only a Canadian lab should do the testing is ostrich mentality and dooms us to always be that country up north with all the trees and rocks. Sorry guys, Canada is respected around the world but not for its leadership in developing and applying modern technology. Please realize that there are more scuba divers in the USA than there are people in Canada.

The differences between the Z180 standards and the much more widely accepted CGA Grade E amounts to 5ppm of CO (the equivalent of the effect of second hand smoke from a cigarette burning 10' away from you). Other differences are either insignificant or of no interest to the diver. It seems to me and would follow the 'logic' of Canadian beaurocracy that the Canadian standards were made slightly different so you and others would be fooled into thinking they are better because they are 'Canadian' standards. Interesting how the published 'Canadian' standards follow the identical format, test for the same gases and use the same measurement units. I can find no evidence either medical or scientific to support the imposition of a 5ppm instead of a 10ppm. For many developed countries (more developed than Canada) the level of CO allowed is higher than 10ppm. I'm led to believe that some pinhead with no knowledge of medicine or science (and certainly not scuba) simply decided that, since the standard set by the largest and most advanced countries of the world is 10ppm, Canada should make it 5ppm and that would make it 'better'. I suppose he could have made it 0ppm but maybe someone told him that is impossible. It would not have surprised me if a government 'crat suggested a 0ppm for CO for Canadians. Woulda' made life hard for divers. We'd have to get our air fills stateside - 'course then another 'crat in an unrelated ministry would have made scuba diving in Canada with non-Canadian air illegal. Was it you that wanted to invite the government in to start making laws?

Novamann, now called Maxxam (?), is an excellent lab and I would not fault anyone for using them. I found them slow, expensive, uncooperative and disinterested in my questions or in scuba customers at all. It was a business decision. The lab I use is fast, affordable, friendly, knowledgeable about air testing AND scuba, always ready to answer questions and eminently qualified to test breathing air.
The sampling method is very precise and sophisticated yet simple while Novamann was essentially a pony bottle filled from your compressor with no comparison to ambient air and no procedure to ensure constant pressure and flow rates during sampling. The sample bottles are also unique and cannot be tampered with, altered or 'adjusted'. I can have results from Austin, Texas in 36 hours. At 4 tests annully minimum (sometimes more) the affordable factor must be considered if the divers want me to continue to supply air - a loss leader in any dive store as it is.
Nope! They're not Canadian but not only was that not even a consideration in the choice, based on my experience with Canadian labs, it adds credibilty to my air test certificate! Does the Ontario Underwater Council ring a bell?

I changed for business reasons. Novamann (Maxamm) was not doing a good job for me.

Want more?
You mentioned failed tests. I've never had one but, if a dive store gets a report that is not up to standards, it is entirely his responsibility to correct the problem. Canadian labs issue a certificate for 'failed' tests. The levels are NOT within standards but you'd need to read the certificate to know that. I'm not suggesting that any store owner would post a test certificate that is not up to standards but he could. When you and the others ask for an air test cert, do you read it? Do you compare the results with the standards? I told you the poll was a waste of time! As well, the labs I know in Canada offer no help. They test - they don't fix!
With the lab in Austin, you choose the air standards to which you want be compared (in this case Z180). If your sample does not meet that standard, no certificate is produced. In fact, an immediate notice by phone or fax is sent advising of the problem. Additionally they will work closely with the fill station to determine likely causes of the problem and suggest corrections. Subsequent air tests to reach standards are FREE! The final certificate shows the test results AND THE SELECTED STANDARDS so you can see and compare.
Yeah! I'm rushing back to Novamann!

The test process is simple but sophisticated. A flow rate gauge and a pressure gauge is attached to the fill whip. The sample then passes through a paper filter which catches particles, oil, water, etc and into a sealed bottle. The air being tested flows through the sampling filter and the bottle for 10 minutes non-stop at a fixed pressure and flow rate. When the 10 minutes (or more) has elapsed and the air is turned off, the sample bottle is pulled from its holder and seals automatically. It cannot be opened, re-used or altered. While this is going on, another sample bottle is set to take a sample of the ambient air (the air from which the compressor draws). The compressed air sample bottle, the ambient air sample bottle and the filter with any particulate is sent by express (overnight) mail to the lab. It is tested within 36 hours of being taken and the results faxed or emailed. A mailed copy is also sent.
The lab has all details of the compressor, filter and maintenance schedule of the air station on file and all of that info is included on each certificate so the user can ensure the sample came from that system.

BTW sneaky, you used the word 'packed' to descibe the filters. Was that intentional? The reason I ask is that filter media is available in bulk and at one time it was common for store owners to 'pack' their own filters. Work with me on this - producing breathing air filters is not a 'weekender' job! Re-using old filter cartridges and filling them with bulk media to save a couple of bucks is not wise in my opinion. First the cost of new filters is reasonable now and second, no thanks - I don't want air that's been filtered through an old cartridge filled with bulk media! Even if washed carefully with soap and water, the cartridge will hide some dirt which builds up. How many times can they be re-used safely? There's no way to tell. Bulk media by its nature (cheap and shipped in big boxes) has more broken down particulate and may well be lower quality anyway. The idea is to be cheap right? Your $7.50 an hour weekend partimer just wants to get the job done. He is not a trained and technically educated filter producer. Wanna' save money? Wash the steel screens, paper or felt filters too. They're probably good for a few uses. Why not wash and dry the activated charcoal? It's the same as aquarium charcoal.

A small point that may not be common knowledge even for store owners is the possibility of a massive filter failure. The entire cartridge will burst which not only reduces the filter to the effectiveness of a wet paper towel but also puts wet media into the cascade and filler system. I've seen it once only but it can occur without warning and there's no way for the owner to even know it's happened. There's no noise or alarms. The first hint he has a problem may come from the divers. It usually happens if the filter itself is not perfect or if its installation is not done carefully. Even starting the compressor up after a filter change can drastically damage a new filter if not done properly. I guess the point is that producing breathing air is not something you learn from a PADI diver manual.

Maybe Fred and I should offer a course on running an air station. Naw! No store owner would pay for my time. Even free they'd not likely come. What the hell - they're divers right? What do they need to take a compressor course for?

Bottom line? Here we go again - it's up to the individual diver to make sure he's getting good air. A reputable air station with posted, frequent (6 months? Jeez - I'm not sure! Maybe OK in the winter.) pure air certificates and concerned, involved staff.

Perhaps you should start your list over!

Bubble Boy

May 15th, 2003, 11:50 AM

seahunter once bubbled...
Bubble, before I begin let me say again that I am a proud Canadian but I do not let that fact handicap my ability to be reasonable and logical nor interfere with my business decisions.

Air Test Standards were developed in the USA (can we agree that the USA is a developed country or shall I point out that whatever happens there occurs in Canada between 3 months and 2 years later?); all the test equipment that I and you use, in fact, all that is available, is manufactured and tested in the USA; all the materials for filtering are manufactured in the USA; the federal accreditation for the air analysis labs in the USA is an international accreditation and includes equivalency to the lab standards of most countries of the world (including the CSA which is generally listed after the standards of the other larger and more recognized countries like the UK, Europe, Japan, etc). My point is that there is no Canadian air test standards, test equipment, filtering media, in fact, nor air test industry that is of Canadian origin. The CSA is pretty much ignored internationally unlike the CGA, UL, etc.

Suggesting only a Canadian lab should do the testing is ostrich mentality and dooms us to always be that country up north with all the trees and rocks. Sorry guys, Canada is respected around the world but not for its leadership in developing and applying modern technology. Please realize that there are more scuba divers in the USA than there are people in Canada.

The differences between the Z180 standards and the much more widely accepted CGA Grade E amounts to 5ppm of CO (the equivalent of the effect of second hand smoke from a cigarette burning 10' away from you). Other differences are either insignificant or of no interest to the diver. It seems to me and would follow the 'logic' of Canadian beaurocracy that the Canadian standards were made slightly different so you and others would be fooled into thinking they are better because they are 'Canadian' standards. Interesting how the published 'Canadian' standards follow the identical format, test for the same gases and use the same measurement units. I can find no evidence either medical or scientific to support the imposition of a 5ppm instead of a 10ppm. For many developed countries (more developed than Canada) the level of CO allowed is higher than 10ppm. I'm led to believe that some pinhead with no knowledge of medicine or science (and certainly not scuba) simply decided that, since the standard set by the largest and most advanced countries of the world is 10ppm, Canada should make it 5ppm and that would make it 'better'. I suppose he could have made it 0ppm but maybe someone told him that is impossible. It would not have surprised me if a government 'crat suggested a 0ppm for CO for Canadians. Woulda' made life hard for divers. We'd have to get our air fills stateside - 'course then another 'crat in an unrelated ministry would have made scuba diving in Canada with non-Canadian air illegal. Was it you that wanted to invite the government in to start making laws?

Novamann, now called Maxxam (?), is an excellent lab and I would not fault anyone for using them. I found them slow, expensive, uncooperative and disinterested in my questions or in scuba customers at all. It was a business decision. The lab I use is fast, affordable, friendly, knowledgeable about air testing AND scuba, always ready to answer questions and eminently qualified to test breathing air.
The sampling method is very precise and sophisticated yet simple while Novamann was essentially a pony bottle filled from your compressor with no comparison to ambient air and no procedure to ensure constant pressure and flow rates during sampling. The sample bottles are also unique and cannot be tampered with, altered or 'adjusted'. I can have results from Austin, Texas in 36 hours. At 4 tests annully minimum (sometimes more) the affordable factor must be considered if the divers want me to continue to supply air - a loss leader in any dive store as it is.
Nope! They're not Canadian but not only was that not even a consideration in the choice, based on my experience with Canadian labs, it adds credibilty to my air test certificate! Does the Ontario Underwater Council ring a bell?

I changed for business reasons. Novamann (Maxamm) was not doing a good job for me.

Want more?
You mentioned failed tests. I've never had one but, if a dive store gets a report that is not up to standards, it is entirely his responsibility to correct the problem. Canadian labs issue a certificate for 'failed' tests. The levels are NOT within standards but you'd need to read the certificate to know that. I'm not suggesting that any store owner would post a test certificate that is not up to standards but he could. When you and the others ask for an air test cert, do you read it? Do you compare the results with the standards? I told you the poll was a waste of time! As well, the labs I know in Canada offer no help. They test - they don't fix!
With the lab in Austin, you choose the air standards to which you want be compared (in this case Z180). If your sample does not meet that standard, no certificate is produced. In fact, an immediate notice by phone or fax is sent advising of the problem. Additionally they will work closely with the fill station to determine likely causes of the problem and suggest corrections. Subsequent air tests to reach standards are FREE! The final certificate shows the test results AND THE SELECTED STANDARDS so you can see and compare.
Yeah! I'm rushing back to Novamann!

The test process is simple but sophisticated. A flow rate gauge and a pressure gauge is attached to the fill whip. The sample then passes through a paper filter which catches particles, oil, water, etc and into a sealed bottle. The air being tested flows through the sampling filter and the bottle for 10 minutes non-stop at a fixed pressure and flow rate. When the 10 minutes (or more) has elapsed and the air is turned off, the sample bottle is pulled from its holder and seals automatically. It cannot be opened, re-used or altered. While this is going on, another sample bottle is set to take a sample of the ambient air (the air from which the compressor draws). The compressed air sample bottle, the ambient air sample bottle and the filter with any particulate is sent by express (overnight) mail to the lab. It is tested within 36 hours of being taken and the results faxed or emailed. A mailed copy is also sent.
The lab has all details of the compressor, filter and maintenance schedule of the air station on file and all of that info is included on each certificate so the user can ensure the sample came from that system.

BTW sneaky, you used the word 'packed' to descibe the filters. Was that intentional? The reason I ask is that filter media is available in bulk and at one time it was common for store owners to 'pack' their own filters. Work with me on this - producing breathing air filters is not a 'weekender' job! Re-using old filter cartridges and filling them with bulk media to save a couple of bucks is not wise in my opinion. First the cost of new filters is reasonable now and second, no thanks - I don't want air that's been filtered through an old cartridge filled with bulk media! Even if washed carefully with soap and water, the cartridge will hide some dirt which builds up. How many times can they be re-used safely? There's no way to tell. Bulk media by its nature (cheap and shipped in big boxes) has more broken down particulate and may well be lower quality anyway. The idea is to be cheap right? Your $7.50 an hour weekend partimer just wants to get the job done. He is not a trained and technically educated filter producer. Wanna' save money? Wash the steel screens, paper or felt filters too. They're probably good for a few uses. Why not wash and dry the activated charcoal? It's the same as aquarium charcoal.

A small point that may not be common knowledge even for store owners is the possibility of a massive filter failure. The entire cartridge will burst which not only reduces the filter to the effectiveness of a wet paper towel but also puts wet media into the cascade and filler system. I've seen it once only but it can occur without warning and there's no way for the owner to even know it's happened. There's no noise or alarms. The first hint he has a problem may come from the divers. It usually happens if the filter itself is not perfect or if its installation is not done carefully. Even starting the compressor up after a filter change can drastically damage a new filter if not done properly. I guess the point is that producing breathing air is not something you learn from a PADI diver manual.

Maybe Fred and I should offer a course on running an air station. Naw! No store owner would pay for my time. Even free they'd not likely come. What the hell - they're divers right? What do they need to take a compressor course for?

Bottom line? Here we go again - it's up to the individual diver to make sure he's getting good air. A reputable air station with posted, frequent (6 months? Jeez - I'm not sure! Maybe OK in the winter.) pure air certificates and concerned, involved staff.

Perhaps you should start your list over!

so can we safely translate what you said in your short post that there is a systemic problem of continental significance

seahunter

May 15th, 2003, 03:15 PM

Yep!

SneakyB'tard

May 16th, 2003, 09:29 AM

Most laws were developed in ancient society steming from religious beliefs and local customs. Yet we do not allow a man to beat his wife based on the rule of thumb. We do not allow sacrifices of young children to appease our gods in time of peril. We have evolved to accept new laws and customs that were developed to enhance and maintain our ways of life and customs.

Canada has been criticized and commended for her laws. Yes we have room to improve, but we must still adhere to the laws that govern our country...not the USA.

Seahunter, you sound like a Cathy Lee Gifford marketing specialist...."well child labour is legal in Sri Lanka...so we will follow their labour laws and make skirts there.."

taz22

May 16th, 2003, 02:06 PM

pufferfish once bubbled...
UpperCanada, do you have proof that "Brockville air is good"?
We are looking for accurate postings from divers who have visited their local dive shops and seen an air certificate less than six months old from an accredited Canadian lab. No hearsay please.

Being a PADI 5 star facility means very little. There is no monitoring of compliance from head office in California. If they are such a facility then ask to see an air certificate less than three months old from an accredited Canadian lab as that is the standard they are required to meet. I think you will be lucky if you find a cert less than twelve months old.

As a Brockville Diver I can confirm that the dive shop in Brockville has good air. I have dove over the winter using it, the owner and his wife use it and most of the people I know use it says roughly 60 other divers, never had a problem. I have seen the results come back from the Lab in Ottawa confirm the air is good and the fellow from the Ministry of Labour has confirmed that also. So all it all, you can say what you like, but the air is good and I'll continue to purchase it from this store.

Bubble Boy

May 16th, 2003, 02:21 PM

Tazz,
I think what is being asked is if an accredited lab is being used. There is NOT an accredited lab in Ottawa doing air tests to Z-180.1 The only accredited ones in Canada are in Nova Scotia, BC, and Mississauga.

The fact that 60 people use it without immediate effect is not exactly imperical evidence.

Is there a certificate on the wall stating the air passed CSA standards? If so check the date issued and please share the info with us.

Also the occupational hygenists working for MOL in Eastern Ont are all female so the "guy" coming in must be some other section of MOL but not an occupational hygenist

taz22

May 16th, 2003, 02:30 PM

Bubble Boy once bubbled...
Tazz,
I think what is being asked is if an accredited lab is being used. There is NOT an accredited lab in Ottawa doing air tests to Z-180.1 The only accredited ones in Canada are in Nova Scotia, BC, and Mississauga.

The fact that 60 people use it without immediate effect is not exactly imperical evidence.

Is there a certificate on the wall stating the air passed CSA standards? If so check the date issued and please share the info with us.

Also the occupational hygenists working for MOL in Eastern Ont are all female so the "guy" coming in must be some other section of MOL but not an occupational hygenist

You are wrong where John is concerned, I have met him personally. The certificate from CSA is there and it was issued on Dec 16, 2002.

Bubble Boy

May 16th, 2003, 03:03 PM

Nothing personal bud,
John is a diving operations guy and not a hygenist. CSA does not issue certs they simply establish a MINIMUM standard to be met.

SneakyB'tard

May 16th, 2003, 03:08 PM

December 16, 2002
May 16, 2003

5 Months...so what are the new quarterly results?????

Shot yourself in the foot on that one.

taz22

May 16th, 2003, 03:19 PM

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...
December 16, 2002
May 16, 2003

5 Months...so what are the new quarterly results?????

Shot yourself in the foot on that one.

Those results haven't come back as of yet and I should note that a quote such as your's above is not really helpful.

The scuba industry in strong in this region and if your are trying to paint it that we have people here who would go out to harm people for the sake of making a buck you are mistaken.

Sad when these type of posts continue to just stir up crap.

Bubble Boy

May 16th, 2003, 03:27 PM

I dont think anyone is attempting to imply people are taking short cuts to save a buck. The thread is just attempting to educate people and indicate that their is a lack of understanding and consistency.

Results taking two months to come back is just unacceptable. Which lab is it?

SneakyB'tard

May 16th, 2003, 03:55 PM

I am sure the stores in Brockville are all strong. I have seen a great many stores go up and down in Brockville.

The one you are refering to is good and I think they have great potential.When businesses grow too fast they tend to implode due to the lack of structure and firm foundations. These foundations are kept strong by the adherence to standards and policies whether they be customer relations or service quality. If they follow the rules while growing to meet the demand for excellence they will ,of course, succeed.

I was pointing out the lack of consistency of the testing.

If you are to provide the date at least be sure it is a valid date as per the thread topic. If the compressor had maintainance or the filters changed in that time(we hope with 5 months), the test would be void anyway.

Question: How large is the bore and length of the intake pipe?
What type of compressor / cfm is it?
How often are the storage cascades cleaned?

pufferfish

May 16th, 2003, 08:10 PM

Tazz, There are huge variations in the quality of monitoring across Ontario at the current moment from NONE to quarterly testing. While none is downright dangerous, my feeling is we have to start somewhere to raise the bar to at least some minimum acceptable standard for the divers in the province. While quarterly testing by an accredited lab to CSA standards should be the ultimate goal this is not going to happen any time soon it appears. In the meantime though I think the Ministry of Labour's requirements are a good starting point to get all shops in Ontario to comply with. If your shop in Brockville is testing twice a year and after any major compressor work to CSA Z180.1 standards by an accredited lab like Maxxam, then please tell us the name of the shop so I can add it to the very short list we have so far.

If your shop has not met these requirments try speaking with the owners as not only does it make good safety sense but it makes excellent business sense. We really need air stations in the major dive tourist areas that out of town guests can come to and feel they can get a good fill. By good I don't mean the 'no one died last year' kind of definition, but hard analytical evidence of no contaminants by a reputable lab and to a recognized standard. It costs $500 a year to do two tests which is peanuts and this would be recouped in no time with the extra business from out of town divers. I personally have never dove in Brockville but plan to this summer but will only fill at a station which meets the minimum standards above. Just remember if I know you have 'certified' air I will tell ten friends here in Metro who will also tell ten friends. Alternatively your shop could charge an extra .50 a fill to pay for the testing. Divers I am sure would cough up a few quarters to see those Maxxam certificates. And if you want to charge me an extra buck a fill to do quarterly testing then please do it. Your shop will then meet what I consider to be an excellent level of testing. If the shop has a web site put this air quality information on the site and divers will come. It is time to become proactive about the quality of air we breath.

Hoping we can put your shop up here as the first from Brockville who meets the Ministry of Labour's requirements.

pufferfish

May 21st, 2003, 03:15 PM

Seahunter, I just got through that long post of yours and wanted to alert readers to some incorrect factual information regarding Maxxam Analytics. First Maxamm was the result of a merger in 1996 of Novamann and Chemex Labs from Alberta. To keep refering to your experience from Novamann from a decade ago is as ridiculous as me having had a bad experience at the Wet Shop ten years ago and saying I won't go to Scuba2000 today. I personally used Chemex labs for six years (not for compressed air analysis) and can say they were the best in that field at that time. So how about we look at Maxxam as a new entity and go from there.

If you had a look at the link posted earlier in the thread (pdf file) you would have seen most of what TRI labs offers you is also offered by Maxxam and is only 20 km from your store. From their site:

- fast response:emergency service 24 hours, normal 5 business days
-immediate alert (i.e. phone call) of off-spec results
- sampling cylinder and instructions included with order
-assistance with interpretation of standards
-certificate of conformance issued

Not suggesting you change labs just that your get your 'facts' straight. Maxxam is Maxxam and not Novamann which existed seven years ago.

Bubble Boy

May 21st, 2003, 03:29 PM

Very well said puffer. Another interesting point is that the Naui Modified CGA Grade E air standard in their code of ethics has a CO not to exceed 2 ppm. Gees, I wonder why they lowered it??

pufferfish

May 21st, 2003, 03:30 PM

The list is slowly getting longer. Tests by the OUC are not recognized as certified. Certifications must be less than six months old and preferably less than three months old.

The following Ontario shops have a recent air certificate meeting or exceeding the CSA Z180.1 standard for compressed breathing air.

1. Dive Center Ottawa
2. Scuba2000 Toronto
3. Ron's Scuba Cornwall
4. Dolphinos Ottawa
5. G&S Watersports Tobermory

Still waiting to hear about any Brockville shops. If I have missed anyone please post the shop's name.

seahunter

May 22nd, 2003, 11:28 AM

Thanks for your research and comments puff!

I've already stated why I prefer Trace Analytics Inc. in Austin to Novaman (oops! Sorry!) Maxxam and most of those reasons remain unfazed.
While I've not made any reference to it 'til now, I can't ignore the fact that 2 tests at Max would cost as much as the 4 I currently have each year. Maxamm has not been willing to offer a discount for volume tests. Added to the other good reasons, I still will not change.
Let me ask you why you're so anxious for me to change companies. Any accredited lab can do the air testing and all I'm obligated to do is ensure the results meet the CSA standards. What's the big deal with Maxamm?

Let's try an experiment! Call Maxamm and tell them I need 4 air tests each year and that I'd like to hear from their sales or customer service rep.
I'm willing to bet 10 free air fills right now that no one will call me!!

pufferfish

May 22nd, 2003, 11:43 AM

pufferfish once bubbled...
Not suggesting you change labs just that your get your 'facts' straight. Maxxam is Maxxam and not Novamann which existed seven years ago.

Did I suggest you change labs? No just that you get your facts straight. You could also use Seatech in Nova Scotia or Cantest in British Columbia.

Free air fills no way. You know how I feel about free fills,....kind of like 'free' sex. Just doesn't come across as a quality product when either are offered free :D

seahunter

May 22nd, 2003, 06:31 PM

"Free Sex?!!" Give me the number!!
Few people are as aware as I that sex is never free!

Free air fills on the other hand, are exactly that. Certified pure air fills for certified divers are free at S2K (2 fills per day max.). As to quality I agree. Generally something that's free is inferior but I assure you, the free air comes from the same bottles as the air for which I charge $5 a fill to non-divers (and the air I and my loved ones use).

I didn't mean to push you. It just seemed that you are determined to get me to consider using another lab for some reason. I'm quite happy with the lab I currently use and they meet my requirements - good service, good value and to the standards I require.

Check the related post under 'Price Club' where this issue has arisen again and see the new 'bet'.

pufferfish

May 22nd, 2003, 11:04 PM

Ok Cat you caught me on that one. I was just trying to use the comparison that if one saw a sign with 'free sex' the average person would likely not take the offer seriously for fear of 'contamination'. Likewise with 'free air' advertised on a dive shop's window the same suspicions are raised. Why is the owner giving it away? Yes I realize it is a loss leader but it is a perception thing in my mind. Now the issue of quarterly Maxxam certificates for the 'free' sex thing has been discussed but don't think Canada is ready to be Holland yet :D

Seahunter, you stated earlier that your "quarterly test costs us $1000 a year" which is the same price four tests ($250 each) would cost at Maxxam. Were you not a math teacher at one point in time? How does two tests at Maxxam then cost more than your four at Trace Analytics? Seems like somehow those facts just keep getting mixed up. And no I am not suggesting you switch labs just that you present the facts accurately.

Why don't you try an experiment this year and charge $5 a fill to all divers. I bet it wouldn't make a difference at all to your customer volume and you would have an extra 20K to put toward a quantitative realtime inline contaminant gas monitor. Then charge me $6 a fill and I will come to your store. As no one else in the GTA is giving fills away(for good reason) why do you bother? Your customers are not going to go elsewhere as all the other shops are charging $5. Just don't think the free air thing is much of a drawing card.

cat

May 23rd, 2003, 04:58 PM

don't you have it backwards? It's *not* free there (well, legally allowed to be "not free").
Hmm, how about calling it an "in kind" donation (to use grant terminology here) instead of free? Or a "mutually beneficial non-business arrangement". I could argue that sex is not "given away" anymore than a handshake is but...

back to the topic of CO and compliance with air standards testing.
Why continue to debate compliance with seahunter, who IS getting his air tested and more frequently than required at that? There's a lot of stores that aren't.
The free vs loss-leader issue (doesn't each tank fill cost *something*, seahunter - someone must have to fill the tanks and aren't they being paid? I say it's a loss leader - never said it wasn't a good or clever idea) is semantics, bottom line for me is it's certified clean and, given the air quality in the rest of TO, that's a miracle of sorts :D

Also seems like pufferfish is now asking seahunter to alter a strictly financial decision related to his store - not one related to safety. (Correct me if I'm wrong on this please - it's been a rough week) So you think his customers wouldn't get a wee bit riled if he suddenly started charging for air? Wanna bet? :D People are funny - they'll drive a long way to save a few cents on gas. If he wants to give away fills, charge an arm or a leg for them or ask for a donation to his favourite charity then that's entirely up to him (and anyone else with a financial interest in the store), right?

Timeframe on the analysis bet is a little short for me, I'm afraid - nor do I own a tank so I could collect. (Be a bit far to ship it even if I did) Have tipped someone else off about it though, so we'll have to see if they make deadline.

pufferfish

May 23rd, 2003, 06:12 PM

Cat just forget about that free sex analogy which yes implies that paying is better which is NOT what I meant :(. How about we use the free drinking water analogy instead. In Walkerton people now have access to 'free' tap water and yet I believe a third of the town still pays dearly for the bottled stuff when I am sure Walkerton water is now the cleanest in the province. Likely some of that behaviour is 'one bitten twice shy' but much of it is likely the perception that water paid for is better than that 'given away' by the state. In that regard yes people will drive a long distance for cheap gas, but I would contend that divers will drive a long distance for clean certified air and gladly pay for it to boot. Gasoline is a commodity which has no human safety concerns whereas scuba air and drinking water quality very much does. Gasoline and air are apples and oranges.

But you are correct about Seahunter. As you can see that list of certified air sources in Ontario is very short and yet S2K is on the list. I do apologize if I was a bit short in my post last night. Seahunter is one of the few shops in this province who has made a concerted effort to maintain quarterly testing to the recognized standard. As well despite the infomercials at times his input and thoughts on the issue of air quality have been greatly appreciated and enhanced the debate. His notice to his instructors and students, even if a bit general, will raise the level of awareness on the air quality issue and put all those shops that are delinquent in testing on the defensive when customer after customer starts asking to see those certs. I can assure you that after Walkerton, SARS, and now mad cow disease, divers will be asking a lot more questions about the quality of air they breath. The quality of the water, air, and food we take in are now front and center. Seahunter and the other four shops listed above which meet a very basic compressed air quality standard (twice a year minimum) are unfortunately very much the exception in this province. You are right in that it is the other 95% of shops we truly need to be concerned about.

So SH can glady give his air away for free and continue to use his Texan lab just as long as he checks his facts before he posts :D

seahunter

May 24th, 2003, 05:49 PM

Thank you.

seahunter

May 24th, 2003, 05:54 PM

If you want to raise the bar, the way is to set a higher standard.
We seem to agree that quarterly tests are better....

Therefore, I intend to direct my teaching staff to tell all our new divers (2000+ per year) plus all our current divers and Diving Board members to always ask for a Pure Air Certificate AND TO ENSURE IT'S NOT OLDER THAN 3 MONTHS.

Now how many dive stores are on your list??

pufferfish

May 24th, 2003, 09:04 PM

I don't know how many on the list have a certificate less than three months old as we asked for one less than six months old to CSA Z180.1 breathing gas standards.

I agree in an ideal world all shops should be doing quarterly testing, but in Ontario where recently we have had lethal gas explosions, West Nile and SARS outbreaks, and numerous bad water outbreaks, it is very apparent the testing infrastructure and monitoring of testing so as to protect public health has collapsed. The recent SBE (mad cow disease) outbreak may also be the breakdown of monitoring not only of diseased cattle, but the illegal feeding of ruminant feed to cattle, again another example of a breakdown in a compliance system meant to protect public health. People are fooling themselves if they don't think we have a problem in this country with regard to the breakdown of public health infrastructure.

The current scuba air quality in this province has suffered the same fate with lack of standards and no compliance monitoring.
This is NOT fact but I would estimate the following:

Ontario dive shops testing quarterly to CSA Z180.1 <1%
Ontario dive shops testing biannually to CSA Z180.1 <5%

The current air situation is truly one of diver beware. Complacency kills.

seahunter

May 25th, 2003, 01:22 PM

Jeez puff! You make me feel special.

I'm currently looking for an affordable in-line CO monitor to replace the very basic one I use now. If anyone has a line on one please let me know. Note: it has to be in-line so the consumer types that measure CO in the ambient air will not do.

pufferfish

May 25th, 2003, 01:43 PM

Not sure what you consider "affordable" but here is one which is $1800 US. Let me see that works out to a 'donation' of fifty cents a fill from your divers. Maybe there are some 'gas' men with more knowledge on this out there that can offer advice. Trick with these things though is keeping them calibrated.

Quarterly testing to CSA Z180.1 with inline real time CO monitoring,...now that would be raising the bar.

In-line quantitative CO monitors (http://www.great-lakes-safety-catalog.com/Great%20Lakes%20main%20catalog/new_page_308.htm)

seahunter

May 25th, 2003, 09:12 PM

Thanks puff.

$1800 is not cheap but it may be the price of such a device. The one I use now from Global costs less than $200 and the replacement elements are quite inexpensive. It does not give a reading however. The visible elements (2) change color to show an increase in CO or water. I'd like to have a digital readout perhaps with an adjustable alarm.

The biggest factor is the ease of installation. By in-line I mean a device that will literally pipe into the air fill line so each fill is monitored. Therefore the CO monitor must be for 5000 psi working pressure. Most CO monitors are for atmospheric pressure and are used to measure room or at most, breathing air at atmospheric pressure such as paint booths, sewer workers, etc.

cat

May 26th, 2003, 11:58 AM

The Dive Shop in Thunder Bay has theirs tested quarterly too (apparently it's part of keeping the PADI 5-star designation).

CGA G-7 1-1997 Grade E(2) standard for breathable air (also by Trace Analytics in Texas)
Saw the cerificate - it's current, posted on the wall in the shop and they'll be sending the next sample in a few days.
Breathed some over the weekend :D

pufferfish

May 26th, 2003, 01:38 PM

Cat no shame in keeping the quality of air we breath in Ontario right front and centre. That is great that The Dive Shop is testing quarterly as a PADI five star facility but the only reason that is happening is because of the owner's integrity. I have personally in the last month been in a PADI five star facility that hasn't tested for THREE YEARS:upset:

We have already decided the standard for our "Ontario Pure Air" list will be to CSA Z180.1 as that is the law for a dive shop with employees in Ontario according to the Ministry of Labour. I realize your shop owner is testing quarterly in very good faith but the law is the law. You might gently point this out to him and suggest that he request his air be tested to CSA Z180.1 by Trace Analytics as good ol' Seahunter does. There are several differences between the two standards but if you can confirm his most recent CO level was less than 5 ppm I will put his shop on the list. Ideally his CO2 level should be less than 500 ppm as well.

Here is the US CGA Grade E breathing air standard on Trace's web site. As SH pointed out they will test to CSA Z180.1 if asked to. This is a pdf file so if you don't have the software to view this go to www.adobe.com and download it for free.

US Air Standards CGA Grade E (http://www.airchecklab.com/pdf/air.pdf)

Thanks very much for posting and letting us know that divers in the Thunder Bay area are almost getting 'Pure Air'.

Maybe before they send that sample off they should check out Maxxam's web site :mean:

Bubble Boy

May 26th, 2003, 01:46 PM

cat once bubbled...
The Dive Shop in Thunder Bay has theirs tested quarterly too (apparently it's part of keeping the PADI 5-star designation).

CGA G-7 1-1997 Grade E(2) standard for breathable air (also by Trace Analytics in Texas)
Saw the cerificate - it's current, posted on the wall in the shop and they'll be sending the next sample in a few days.
Breathed some over the weekend :D
Cat, that is nice they meet an American standard that allows for twice the amount of CO. Its funny that a training agency like NAUI actually has an air standard that calls for 1/5 of the allowable amount in grade E

pufferfish

May 26th, 2003, 04:00 PM

Can someone post a link to the CSA Z180.1-00 standard?

What is the amount of condensed hydrocarbon and particulates allowed under the CSA standard?

taz22

May 26th, 2003, 05:12 PM

pufferfish once bubbled...

We have already decided the standard for our "Ontario Pure Air" list will be to CSA Z180.1 as that is the law for a dive shop with employees in Ontario according to the Ministry of Labour.

One question, who is the 'We' (insert Scubaboard members names that have asked for this) in the above statement? This wil clarify who the 'we' are. And a request. Would you please post the weblink for the CSA Z180 standard that you are asking people to conform too in accordance with the Ministry of Labour law that you mention.

Not only this would be greatly appreciated, it will give others the chance to read the standards that you wish all diveshops to meet.

Cheers!

eagleray2003

May 26th, 2003, 05:54 PM

Try this site and follow to standards for breathing air.
www.ohs.csa.ca

pufferfish

May 26th, 2003, 11:00 PM

There does not appear to be a link but if you go to the CGA Grade E link above it is the same except CO is 5 ppm and CO2 is 500 ppm. Don't know about the condensed hydrocarbon or total hydrocarbon though.

pufferfish

May 27th, 2003, 12:51 AM

"We" is a very loose coalition of concerned Ontario divers who have realized that self- regulation of scuba air quality by
the dive industry is not working in this province. "We" represents not only scubaboard members but numerous non board
members in Ontario who have discussed this issue and decided that if the dive industry was not going to take this air issue
seriously then "we" would.

The air one breaths while diving is as important as the water one drinks when thirsty, likely more so. Here in Toronto after
chlorination, the water is still sampled every four hours to check for bacteriological contamination. The process of
converting dirty water from Lake Ontario to reliably clean drinkable tap water is a complicated one which requires many
safeguards along the way to ensure people do not become ill. As Ontario residents "we" expect no less.

Then tell me why as divers in Ontario if we expect clean water from the province that we don't also expect reliably tested
clean air from our dive shops? I can assure you as a health care professional that the purity of the air you breath at 130 feet is
far more important than any tap water concerns you might have. E. Coli might give you some diarrhea for a few days but a CO
or oil contaminated tank might kill you or make you real sick for months. If one actually looks at the process of compressing
air into a tank for a diver to breath there are many steps along the way where contaminants can enter the tank. Factors such as
the compressor intake length and diameter, filter age and quality, and general maintenance can all impact to possibly
compromise the integrity of the air we breath. CO, CO2, oil, and a whole host of other contaminants can enter the fill. The
only way to know this is to test the air like we do with water on a regualar basis. In Ontario, the Ministry of Labour has
decided that twice a year testing is enough. It could have been once a year or even once a month but someone sat down and
decided twice a year was what Ontario employees of dive shops can expect as far as quality control. Some dive shops like
S2K have raised the quality bar and decided that quarterly testing is in the best interest of their employees and by extension
their divers.

If you are not convinced about the potential for problems just look at the story above from Doppler and what was found in
those tanks. As he says, "there is a shop out there pumping poison." Look at the story of the shop in Rockport that had the
wrong certificate for the compressor on site (since gone out of business). If you don't think there is the potential for diver
getting injured out there then you have your head in the sand. Just as an aside take a look around you and ask what is the
common link between Walkerton, West Nile, SARS, mad cow, the list goes on, but there is a common theme of
complacency and the breakdown of monitoring. This is how the "we" see the situation with regard to scuba air in Ontario.
We do not want to wonder what shop is pumping poison any further. Ninety five percent of the shops are not testing to the
Ministry of Labour very minimal standards of twice a year. One might ask what about the OUC? Well they are not an
accredited lab and cannot offer reliable testing. Part of the accreditation process is ensuring accuracy and precision of
testing. Accredited labs are sent samples on a regular basis blindly where the absolute value is not known to the lab but is
known by the standards agency so as to check on the accuracy of reporting. Premises are inspected and maintained to a
certain standard. OUC does not meet these standards.

My guess is five percent of shops in the province are meeting a requirement of biannual testing to CSA Z180.1 standard.
That is the crux of the issue and represents negligence on the part of shop owners who are not testing and is a disaster waiting to happen. Given this unacceptable situation the concerned "we" are going to find shop owners like S2K, Dive Center, Ron's, G&S Watersports, and Dolphinos who do care about the standards of air they provide us. Some of these shops have gone above and beyond the biannual testing and do quarterly testing allowing an extra degree of safety. It is highly unlikely one will find "poison" from one of these shops but quite possible from any of the others. Like contaminated drinking water the contaminants are often invisible but potentially lethal. If a shop is not testing then the air is in doubt and the diver is at risk.

You know Tazz I find it quite mind boggling that a place like Brockville which has a decent scuba diver tourist industry is so
unwilling to see these issues as important. The state of Florida felt its dive tourist industry was so important and they didn't
want any negative PR from a bad air incident that they and the dive industry decided to move to quarterly testing with the test
results going to the Ministry of Health. There had been too many incidents of shops not testing under self regulation. And
here in Ontario people are *****ing about two tests a year that cost $500 bucks to give pretty minimal protection. That would
be like the government saying they are only going to check your drinking water once a month for E. Coli instead of every
four hours. Think about it.

No, all the "we" want is to have a list of 'triple A' fill stations who are willing to fulfill their obligations to the divers of
Ontario. If I was a dive shop owner in Brockville, Kingston, or Toby, I would be the first to have quarterly tests on my web
site and advertise the fact. This is an awareness issue and divers are incredibly ignorant of the situation in Ontario at this
point in time but that is changing. Seahunter is going to teach 2000 new divers a year to ask for air certificates and you will
see people vote with their feet as to which shops to patronize. I would hope by the end of this dive season "we" will have a
network of shops in each region who are up to spec and where divers can go and expect safe quality air. The owners will
proudly display this fact and benefit from the extra business. Just as when one cracks open a bottle of Evian water and
expects consistently reliable quality water what "we" envisage is a small number of shops (only need one in each tourist
region) who will provide consistent 'Evian' brand safe air. The rest of the shops can continue with their dangerous
head in the sand ways and wonder why divers no longer come for air fills. Not only does biannual testing to CSA Z180.1
make good health sense but very good business sense. You are either with "us" or against "us" :D

eagleray2003

May 27th, 2003, 08:40 AM

Well stated Puffer if an owner's life isn't worth $500. for semi annual testing, than why would you think your life means a damn to him?

SneakyB'tard

May 27th, 2003, 09:20 AM

I am part of the "We" as well.

I dive in GTA area and the 1000 Islands area. I am still waiting to have confirmation of any shop between Cornwall and Kingston that has 'Triple A" air.

pufferfish

May 27th, 2003, 12:22 PM

Ahhhh, the power of the Internet

Toby Safe Air (http://www.gswatersports.com/fill.html)

cat

May 28th, 2003, 02:56 PM

Sure that E2 is the same as E? I don't have a paper copy of the guidelines available, I can't find a listing for E2 on the net and I find it extremely distasteful that I've inadvertently been the source of ANY negative publicity for a store that actually *is* getting it's air tested quarterly when so many are not bothering to take the trouble and expense to do so. I'm going to breathe air canned south of the border anyways when I dive down there. I'll take the 10 ppm US limit over *NO* testing and thus NO limit anyday.
I'd really like to see complete copies of these guidelines for a point-by-point comparison.

Here's a thought - take the problem with Canadian vs American standard to the most likely source of the "wrong standard" problem. Take it up with PADI. I bet the small stores do what they are told to do by the agency that IS enforcing the rules (tell PADI about the "5-star" store that hasn't tested in 3 years, too, while you're at it) as opposed to the province which apparently is not enforcing them.

After all, what would most dive store owners do if the province said one thing (do they even know the province has a different standard at most places?) but didn't enforce it and the agency said another thing and did enforce it? Right. They take the sample, they send it in and they ask for the test PADI (or whoever) tells them to do. I doubt if it would cost the store any more to test to 180 but they have to know about it (thus the call to PADI or other agency so the word gets to them from the right direction, not just from some customer off the street - even if said customer is a doctor, lawyer or ... analytical chemist. Yes, the notification *should* be from the province but that isn't happening, is it?).

Bubble Boy: does your post mean that NAUI-affliated stores all have to have air < 2ppm CO? Great. Umm, where are they?

Caveat on the bottled-water comparison, BTW - you'd be appalled at how many don't meet standards anywhere near that of our average big-city tap water

pufferfish

May 28th, 2003, 05:20 PM

cat once bubbled...
Here's a thought - take the problem with Canadian vs American standard to the most likely source of the "wrong standard" problem. Take it up with PADI. I bet the small stores do what they are told to do by the agency that IS enforcing the rules (tell PADI about the "5-star" store that hasn't tested in 3 years, too, while you're at it) as opposed to the province which apparently is not enforcing them.

Cat, neither PADI nor the Province of Ontario is enforcing anything. Shop owners like yours and Seahunter are following PADI guidelines which we would expect from an ethical owner however there are PADI 5 star facilities in Ontario who have not tested for three years just as there are non-agency affiliated shops who have not tested for three years. I have seen those too. As far as what guidelines to follow provincial or PADI that is a bit of a grey area, but my understanding is that the local standards trump PADI standards if the local standards are stricter.
Our local standards require a CO level of 5 ppm whereas PADI says 10 ppm. The Ministry of Labour says if the shop has employees then they only need to test twice a year but PADI for its 5 star facilities says quarterly. As you pointed out very clearly it is far better to accept 10 ppm than no testing at all which pretty much is the norm in Ontario. No enforcement, no testing, bad air potential. I'm sure PADI would love to raise the bar to accept only 5 ppm of CO or less in the fill like NAUI or IANTD, but PADI has 5 star resorts in places around the planet where actually getting quarterly testing done is tuff enough let alone worrying about a CO level. In other words they leave it at 10 ppm as they must cater to the lowest common denominator. If they lowered it to 5 ppm too many shops would fail.

All your shop has to do is ask for a cert to Z180.1 from their lab. They should have the absolute value of the CO reading on the certificate in the shop now and like I said if it is <5ppm we'll add their name to the list. You can tell the owner he is probably in that special group of shops in Ontario (my estimate <1%) who are testing quarterly. They should be recognized as ethical owners in the face of no enforcement by PADI or the province. They are doing this voluntarily and those are the shops we should patronize.

As for your caveat I had seen that in a documentary about the lack of standards in bottled water. That is why I always drink city tap water as I figure it must be the safest water anywhere these days especially after Walkerton. Bring on the L'Eau de TO.

And here is a caveat for you that will 'mess with your mind' as SH says. Did you know that outside of a hospital (i.e. your doctor's office) there are only guidelines with regards to equipment sterilization. If the device is not disposible you had better know what your doc is doing to keep that needle driver or speculum sterile. In Ontario, sterilization equipment is never checked for proper functioning, procedures are never monitored, and no qualifications are needed by the person doing the sterilizaition. And you thought there was some risk in a scuba air fill :upset:

pufferfish

May 29th, 2003, 01:00 PM

Boy trying to find this comparison was not easy. Seahunter's lab came through with the info, however it is interesting that the President of Trace Analytics states "we anticipate being able to provide analyses according to this specification" which suggests to me they have not up to this point in time. So Seahunter which is it at S2K, CGA or CSA?

From Trace Analytics (May 29,2003):

Thanks for your question, it made me purchase the revised standard and review it carefully. I'm pleased to say that we anticipate being able to provide analyses according to this specification. Our Lab Director will make a final determination later this week. The differences between the specs are:

CSA vs CGA

Carbon Monoxide: 5 ppm vs 10
Carbon Dioxide: 500 ppm vs 1000
Methane: 10 ppm vs No Limit
Volatile Non-Methane: 5 ppm vs 25 (as methane)
Volatile Halogenated Hydrocarbons: 5 ppm vs No Limit
Oil, Particulates, & Condensates: 1 mg/m vs 5 mg/m

Water is not regulated for scuba air under CGA Gr E, only Gr D for scba and low pressure airline respirators
Water (high pressure/scba): 27 ppm (-63�F) vs 24 ppm (-65�F)
Water (low pressure): 9�F below lowest anticipated temperature vs. 10�F below lowest ....

Thank you,

Ruby Ochoa, Pres.
Trace Analytics, Inc.
www.AirCheckLab.com
800-247-1024, 512-263-0000 x11, Fax 512-263-0002

Interesting that with the CGA Gr E he states there is no regulation as far as water in the fill (only Grade D for scba) whereas under CSA this is monitored. Ever wondered why with nicely maintained regs from one shop's air you might get a freeflow in cold water whereas from the next you don't (that meeting the CSA water standard).

Obviously then CGA Grade E done quarterly is better than once a year by the Ontario Underwater Council (OUC) which is better than no testing at all (majority of shops in Province). But I think biannual testing to CSA Z180.1 is safer and a higher standard of air quality than quarterly testing to the CGA Grade E standard. The best though would be quarterly testing to the CSA Z180.1 standard by all shops.

seahunter

May 29th, 2003, 07:55 PM

Nice job puff!

Now the rest of the story...

1. At least Trace found the answers to your questions and offered the information. When I called Maxamm the other day (see my post) the technical department had no idea what the Z 180 specs were and weren't interested.

2. Realize that the lab does not set the standard. Getting an air test at Trace, Maxamm or OUC doesn't matter at all. They simply test the air and produce the results which are then compared to the standards whether CGA, CSA or NASA. It's the customer's responsibility to ensure the results of the test of their air is up to snuff - not the lab!
So... Trace gives me fast, affordable air tests. They produce a report that shows my air sample compared to the standards I dictate. If I tell them I want my comparison specs to be 5ppm or 10ppm, they simply show my sample next to the standard I choose.
For example, in my last test (April 11, 03) the oxygen by volume of my air was 20.9. Next to that number is the specification I want to meet which is 20-22. I pass!! And on it goes.

3. CGA Grade E for scuba specs dictate the water content shall be less than 24ppm or have a dewpoint not higher than 65 degrees fahrenheit or not higher than 10 degrees colder than the anticipated coldest working temperature. This is exactly the same as the CSA specifications.
CGA has different grades of breathing air and the station operator decides which he needs depending on the usage. SCBA (firefighters), SCUBA, mine workers, etc may have different priorities. Generally they are similar except for the importance of water for SCUBA.

What I'm trying to make clear is that the lab doesn't matter. The lab simply tests the air and shows the result of the test. Those results are then compared to the standard chosen by the station owner (CGA,CSA, ABC, etc) and based on the comparison a pass or fail is noted.
You seem to think the lab tests TO a certain standard as in, a USA lab tests only to CGA standards. NO!! The lab tests the air. The test results are compared to the standard chosen. A USA lab doesn't test for CO and stop measuring when it gets down to 10ppm! - they test for the CO content whether it's 20,10,5,2, or lower. I do the comparison!!

BTW, my CO in that last test was 0.3 (allowable 2, 5 or 10); my water was -91 degrees.

Bottom line re S2K - quarterly tests exceeding both CGA Grade E and CSA Z180 plus full time CO and moisture monitor.
#1 again!!

SneakyB'tard

May 29th, 2003, 09:18 PM

A question

CSA vs CGA

Carbon Monoxide: 5 ppm vs 10
Carbon Dioxide: 500 ppm vs 1000
Methane: 10 ppm vs No Limit
Volatile Non-Methane: 5 ppm vs 25 (as methane)
Volatile Halogenated Hydrocarbons: 5 ppm vs No Limit
Oil, Particulates, & Condensates: 1 mg/m vs 5 mg/m

If a lab does not test to the first standard(CSA) but CGA, do they post the results of Methane and VHH on the cert?

If they are a no limit value, do they even test for it?

pufferfish

May 30th, 2003, 12:19 AM

Seahunter why is it one has to always check your facts particularly the ones you conveniently choose to omit which tell the real story?

First off let me state categorically the air at Scuba2000 does NOT meet or exceed CSA Z180.1 standards but it does meet or exceed CGA Grade E2.

For fear of losing people on this debate I will repost the different standards:
CGA Grade E (http://www.airchecklab.com/pdf/air.pdf)
The CSA Z180.1 standard is on the post above

First the issue of using a certified lab which the OUC is not. Certification involves many components but let me present three of the most important concepts.

Accuracy, Precision & Resolution

It is of primary importance to understand the distinction between Accuracy and Precision and what is meant by Resolution.

a. Precision. This is a measure of repeatability, i.e. the degree of agreement between individual measurements of a set of measurements, all of the same quantity.
b. Accuracy. This is a measure of reliability, and is the difference between the True Value of a measured quantity and the Most Probable Value which has been derived from a series of measures. The True Value is, of course, never known.
c. Resolution. This is the smallest interval measurable by an instrument.

Lets use CO levels for explaining these concepts. If I have a known CO concentration in a bottle of say 10 ppm and send three samples to Lab A and they return 2,2, and 2 ppm the lab has good precision, but poor accuracy. If they return 10, 7, 13 we have reasonably good accuracy but poor precision.

If the lab returns 20, 20, and 20 ppm one might suspect the analyser didn't have the resolution to read down to a level of 10 ppm. It wasn't senstive enough.

This is why using an accredited lab is so important as the accrediting agency sends on a regular basis blind samples where the value is known to the accredited labs so as to check on their precision and accuracy. If the lab fails it must rectify the situation or face closure. What good is sending your air to a lab if you have no idea whether the CO value you receive as 5 ppm is really that or say 20 ppm. You are wasting your money and possibly endangering the lives of your divers depending on the direction and magnitude (size) of the error that day. Having an actual CO value of say of 2 ppm reported as 10 ppm may pass as CGA Gr. E and not endanger the diver but what about the other way around. An actual as 20 ppm but reported as 2 ppm. All labs are not the same and accreditation is required.

Trace Analytics is an accredited lab in the US (A2LA accredited) and Maxxam is an accredited lab in Canada, however the OUC is NOT accredited and hence a CO reading from there is probably about as reliable as a seven day weather forcast.

Now S2K is using Trace Analytics and testing to CGA Gr E2. The straight Grade E does not include a water content analysis. You have requested this as an add-on, but PADI does not require this water content. Mr Ochoa's email from Trace even states this. The E2 simply is the Gr E standard plus the water content for SCBA added on.

Here is a nice simple chart showing what Gr E tests for. Notice water content is NONE.
CGA vs ANDI (http://www.voodoogas.com/)

You are correct in that the CGA Gr E2 water content for all practical purposes is the same as CSA Z180.1 standard. I won't split hairs over 2 degrees Fahrenheit.

But where you do not meet CSA standards is you do not have as Sneaky questions above a "volitile halogenated hydrocarbon" or a "volitile non-methane gaseous hydrocarbans" level as required by the CSA certification. As well your air could have up to 25 ppm of methane and CSA allows 10 ppm. As Ms. Ochoa from Trace points out they are only going to decide this week if they will offer the CSA standard which will involve testing for these two additional contaminants.

The problem with your way of doing things is the customer surely can't know what level of all these contaminants is safe for him. Do you know what level of non-fecal coliforms is allowed in your drinking water? No you just want someone to tell you it is safe, preferably a scientist and not the Koebels as happened in Walkerton. I don't want some scuba shop owner interpreting what level of contaminants should be in the fill based on his interpretation of the guidelines or how he is feeling that day. A customer should just be able to come in and say show me the CSA certification. In fact it should be on the wall by law like in Florida. The cert is there, the diver sees it and feels reassured that some reliable standard is being met, and buys his fill. The shops posting Maxxam certificates (who have met CSA Z180.1 standard) are doing this and so there is no confusion as to what standard of CO, water content, methane, or oil in the fill they meet. We can't have different shops meeting different standards in the province, so CSA is the one.

Bottomline is you are not meeting CSA standards until Trace Analytics says you are and provides a piece of paper officially telling us so. They are going to decide this week if they will offer the two missing tests above so as to offer the CSA standard to their Canadian customers. If they decide not to offer this then you will have to find another accredited lab who will so as to meet the Ministry of Labour standards. Technically what you are doing now does not meet the MOL standards.

On the otherhand you are testing quarterly which is commendable compared to no testing at all or once a year testing from an unaccredited lab like the OUC which is what the majority of the shops in this province are currently doing. That is just plain unacceptable especially in light of what is coming to light with all the other health disasters in this country. Complacency, inadequate or no standards, and no compliance monitoring are the common themes in Walkerton, SARS, West Nile, and mad cow. Do people see some parallels here with air quality issue in the scuba industry??

We will leave your name on the list, but technically you do not meet CSA standards and should not advertise this publically until that is the case. This is not fair for the shops who truly do meet the standard.

Now, from that April 11/03 sample just so we can see you meet the other CSA requirements conveniently left out, what were the levels of:

Carbon dioxide
Total Hydrocarbon content(as methane)
Oil, particulates, condensates (oil in your fill)

Let the readers see your results here and decide for themselves if you meet or exceed the partial CSA Z180 that you claim to meet.

I will be contacting Ms. Ochoa next week to see what decision they come to ;)

pufferfish

May 30th, 2003, 03:45 PM

I had a nice chat today with Paul Fewer the analyst at the accredited lab, Seatech Ltd. in Halifax. Very pleasant fellow who would be glad to receive scuba samples from Ontario and offer an alternative to Maxxam.
They charge $205 per test (cheaper than Maxxam) which includes free shipping one way anywhere in Canada. Turnaround time is 3 to 5 business days and a 6 or 24 hour emergency service is offered. They will notify you by phone if you fail the certification process. One of their personel sits on the CSA Z180 standards board.

Web site www.seatech.ns.ca

This is what a CSA Z180.1 air report looks like
Seatech sample CSA Z180.1 certification (http://www.seatech.ns.ca/csareport.PDF)

This is the official report that ALL Ontario divers should be demanding to see every six months. Notice the expiry date and the compressor serial number to which the certification applies
Laminated CSA Z180.1 (http://www.seatech.ns.ca/csacertificate.PDF)

Collection air bottle (http://www.seatech.ns.ca/highpressure.html)

Interestingly the biannual testing for SCUBA air is enforced by the Ministry of Labour in Nova Scotia to CSA standard unlike Ontario. Diving therefore is safer in Nova Scotia.

The diver walks in to the shop sees the laminated plaque on the wall and knows the air has met a high level for air purity. He or she buys the fill and leaves feeling the air will be 'pure' and safe meeting a very good standard for CO, water, methane, oil, and CO2.

Unfortunately Ontario divers cannot expect the same from their dive industry. Self regulation is NOT working. Ask to see the proper certification from your shop.

pufferfish

May 30th, 2003, 06:46 PM

Just for the sake of completeness Cantest in Burnaby, B.C is accredited and can offer CSA Z180 testing.

www.cantest.com

Their price however is $250 and you pay shipping both ways. Only spoke to one of the underlings there but she did say turnaround time was seven business days. Contact person is Chad Born.

Bubble Boy

May 30th, 2003, 07:39 PM

seahunter once bubbled...
Nice job puff!

Now the rest of the story...

1. At least Trace found the answers to your questions and offered the information. When I called Maxamm the other day (see my post) the technical department had no idea what the Z 180 specs were and weren't interested.

2. Realize that the lab does not set the standard. Getting an air test at Trace, Maxamm or OUC doesn't matter at all. They simply test the air and produce the results which are then compared to the standards whether CGA, CSA or NASA. It's the customer's responsibility to ensure the results of the test of their air is up to snuff - not the lab!
So... Trace gives me

Seahunter,

I will try to explain this in simple terms. The new z-180 standard specifies accredited lab. The ouc is not accredited. Their GC does not even have a methanizer so read between the lines. The Ont MOL requires Cdn accreditation despite what dive shop operators think.

You state that Maxxam tech dept had no idea what the standard was....well maybe they did not want to waiste time with you as they had lots of samples to do. Both Maxxam and Seatech had representatives sitting on the 180 committee. If you look at the standard you will see them listed. I would then conclude they know what they are doing with regards to the standard as they helped establish it. When I am diving in Lake Ontario I really do not care what NASA has for a standard in space.

How many hours did you have your filters in before taking your sample?

Part of accreditation is the ability to duplicate the results. The containers are also a key part of the sampiling proceedure.

I would rather get air from you tested to a CGA standard than to no standard at all but I thing there is a definite need for harmonization of the standards and education as to what the standards are about.

taz22

May 30th, 2003, 07:53 PM

I must admit this is quite a thread.

Never in the field of scuba-humanity has someone like our members pufferfish and bubble boy gone through so much trouble as to research the current standards ie: Z180 etc etc etc.

You learn something new everyday.

seahunter

May 30th, 2003, 10:12 PM

You're right! I lied! 0.3ppm CO and -90 degrees Dew Point does not exceed CSA. In fact it is so much better that it's not even a fair comparison. The CSA standards when compared to the air at S2K look dangerous to me so I'll stick to my current air purity program until CSA catches up!
Really puff, if the CSA standard for CO is 5ppm max and my air test indicates 0.3 ppm, doesn't my air exceed the CSA standard? If I have a test that show 0ppm, would you still argue that my air is not up to CSA standards? Do you live anywhere close to Ottawa? You sound very much like some of our feds!

I spoke to Jordair on Thursday about their CO monitor. They advised me to NOT buy one (at $3000 I wasn't exactly about to send an order anyway).
Their premise is (they are the compressor and high pressure air purifying experts in Canada) that an electric compressor with a clean air intake and high heat protection can not have a problem with CO. Suki (sales manager) indicated that the only CO that gets into a scuba tank came from the exhaust of a gas engine or from the ambient air (didn't we discuss this before?).
Sorry guys, but since CO is NOT a problem generally and certainly not at S2K, I'll spend the $3000 on something that will actually benefit the divers.

Now back to puff and bubble...
1. Our filters are rated as good for 60 hours. We change them at 50. A test at hour 1 or at hour 50 should be the same. The rating on the filters does not allow the air to get progressively worse.
2. The large number of international creditation certificates that Trace holds far outweighs CSA accreditation.
3. One reason I stopped using Maxamm was their unwillingness to discuss standards, air problems, testing procedures or anything else. If they are too busy to discuss their service with their customers, they are too busy to do a good job! Would you deal with me if I refused to dicuss the gear or service you wanted to buy?
4. CSA does not have a certificate. CSA does not test air. If the PDF you indicated opened, we'd see that it's a Seatec certificate showing the CSA standards.
5. The MOL in NS and in Ontario both enforce the bi-annual testing of scuba air for employees. That's their job - employee safety. Neither has a statute requiring the air sold to a diver be tested. Clearly, since dive stores (well certainly PADI 5 Stars) test their air and post the test for their customers (divers) self-regulation works very well. Since there's been no air quality problems for divers for years AND no government regulations it's obvious the dive industry HAS been doing a good job.
You seem determined to draw a parallel between air and other health problems we've seen in the last few years. Is there any chance you'd reconsider that tack if I pointed out that 'EVERY ONE OF THE HEALTH PROBLEMS YOU REFER TO AROSE DESPITE STRICT GOVERNMENT GUIDELINES'?

Think about it - water, sars, west nile and mad cow are all problems that appeared in industries that are closely regulated and scrutinized. And you want the same people to interfere with air tests for divers? I don't think it's just the water that has fecal matter in it around here!

Divers can come to S2K knowing as they have for years that our air is the best available.
We take more care than anyone else.
We post the results.
We're happy to discuss our air system with anyone.

pufferfish

May 31st, 2003, 09:32 AM

Seems to work for other Scubaboard readers. Try going directly to the Seatech site, compressed air page, and opening from there. If that doesn't work it is likely your Adobe Reader that is faulty or past its before date. We are now on version 6.0 which is available free at Adobe Reader 6.0 (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html)

You know SH software programs like air standards evolve and improve over time.

seahunter

May 31st, 2003, 08:31 PM

Could be my firewall doesn't like your tone of voice. It's pretty sophisticated!

Before commenting on my computer abilities or my computer's capabilities you ought to check out the weekly newletter that goes to 5000 divers every Wednesday complete with PDF's, interactive page links, hundreds of images, article-specific email links and so on. Not only is it pretty much state-of-the-art computer communications but it's a damn popular newletter too.
http://www.scuba2000.com/new.htm

You might enjoy the Weekly Scuba Quiz, the Liar!Liar!! contest or the Mystery Dive Site contest. Here's an opportunity to test your wit and knowledge against other divers. It's fun too!

rdriver

May 31st, 2003, 09:02 PM

I have to admit since I started diving mixed gas I always mix my own and I have my hyper filters tested once a year by an indipendant lab. I have never had a problem maintaning OCA standards.

pufferfish

June 1st, 2003, 12:51 AM

seahunter once bubbled May 12/03...

List Scuba 2000 as a pure air station with four (4) annual air tests that exceed CSA Z180.1 plus on-line monitoring. Both the certs and the air monitor are visible to the diving public at all times.

Very ironic that you point Scubaboard members to a column on S2K's web site entitled "Liar, Liar". Ever thought of using that guy with the long nose as your avatar? And how about heeding your own advice under 'cowboy philosophy' which says, "if you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you should do is stop digging."

One only has to read the above quote from yourself regarding S2K meeting CSA standards which was repeated again in another post on this same thread for one to realize you have intentionally misled board members and misrepresented as the owner of S2K the type of air certification met by S2K to the members of Scubaboard and Ontario divers looking for reliable truthful information on this subject.

No other dive shop owner gets away with the 'advertising' that you do on this board, but we tolerate this as you do have a wealth of experience in the Ontario dive industry to which we like to tap into from time to time despite all the S2K 'infomericals'. Misleading divers though we do not tolerate and believe me it is not good for business at S2K.

The spirit of this thread has been to educate Ontario divers about the importance of the quality of air they breath and to become more aware about the various 'ins and outs' of reliable testing, junk testing, or no testing at all which currently exists in Ontario . If you read the post "Who are we" our intentions have been crystal clear. Another goal of the thread was to encourage and promote dive shops since most were not meeting any level of testing to meet the Ontario Ministry of Labour's requirement of twice a year testing to CSA Z180.1 standard. It was felt that the majority of dive shops do have employees and so this standard was a reasonable goal to achieve. If most shops met the CSA standard for air quality the risk of bad air, both perceived or real could be diminished greatly. A request to board members to provide the names of shops where they had seen a recent (less than 6 months) CSA Z180 certification was made. This 'triple A' air list would become a list were divers could go and feel reassured the air they purchased met some reasonable level of safety. It was "us" the divers of Ontario who decided what the standard would be for membership on this list.

You were twice asked if you had a CSA Z180 air certificate from an accredited lab and TWICE (May 12 and 29th) on this thread you told readers you did. Well the facts have revealed themselves again that this was NOT the case. People are upset as this was a serious issue and you have treated this request for shops like some sort of game to opportunistically promote your shop as having the certification when it is no clear you do not. Yes you have reasonably good air as you test quarterly to a PADI standard but that is not the point. We asked very specifically twice if S2K met CSA Z180 standard as that is the law in Ontario for shops with employees, and twice you said yes. This was not true. Board members and "we" the divers of Ontario do not appreciate being manipulated or having our time wasted having to check all claims for truthfullness.

It is very clear from the email (May 29/03) posted above from Ms. Ochoa, the President of the very lab you use Trace Analytics, that they did not offer CSA Z180 testing at any point in time or produce certificates to that effect. Two of the contaminants required for CSA are not even done by Trace Analytics and Trace will only decide this week if they will even offer testing to the CSA Z180 standard. What you have done is to cherrypick a few contaminants like CO and water content off your analysis and when they happen to meet the ranges for CSA Z180 you then claim you meet the standard. What happens when your CO level is 8 ppm? Will you tell us that for this quarter you no longer meet CSA standards? That is as absurd as one taking a tank from shop X testing for CO and O2 only and saying shop X meets the CSA standard. You have never shown us the CO2, oil, or methane levels from your certs. Do they not meet CSA standards?

Bottomline is you knew all along you did not meet what we had asked for, but continued to promote your shop as having a legitimate CSA certification only because you thought you could get away with it. Honesty and accuracy is all we ask for here, nothing less.

As said you are testing quarterly and to a PADI standard which is far more than most shops in this province. This is commendable. You are not meeting though the current MOL requirements of biannual testing to CSA Z180 and as this was the original criteria for our list we will have to remove your shop until someone other than yourself can verify you do meet CSA Z180. This is only fair for the shops in the province who have spent the money (a whole $450/yr) to meet the law. They will be promoted for their good will and divers are encouraged to patronize these shops.

We would hope in the future S2K will come on board with a legitimate CSA Z180.1 air certificate from any of the labs Seatech, Cantest, or Maxxam all Canadian certified labs. I would hope you will consider the offer to join the Triple A list in the future so "we" can promote S2K as truly meeting or exceeding the CSA Z180.1 air standard in Ontario.

Cost of two CSA Z180.1 air checks,....................$410
Peace of mind for Ontario divers,..........................Priceless

Seatech labs used for price of lab test at $205 each

pufferfish

June 1st, 2003, 01:00 AM

Tests by the OUC are not recognized as certified. Certifications must be less than six months old and preferably less than three months old.

The following Ontario shops have a recent air certificate meeting or exceeding the CSA Z180.1 standard for compressed breathing air.

1. Dive Center Ottawa www.divecenter.ca
2. Ron's Scuba Cornwall
3. Dolphinos Ottawa www.dolphinos.com
4. G&S Watersports Tobermory www.gswatersports.com

Still waiting to hear about any Brockville shops. If I have missed anyone please post the shop's name.

When you do buy fills from these shops knowing they have made a genuine effort to provide divers with safe air please tell the owner this is why you are patronizing their store. Postive reinforcement works wonders.

seahunter

June 1st, 2003, 01:43 AM

I thought Jimmy Baker was still in jail but "he lives and breathes as our Holy Saviour Puff" !!

Let's just see who's misleading whom...

Please show me a "CSA Z180 air certificate". Why can't you get it through your head that the CSA does NOT have a certificate? A lab tests an air sample and then makes up a certificate showing the comparison between the sample and the CSA standards. That's it! End of story!
Split hairs with me will ya'!!

If in fact, you speak for the divers of Ontario, please supply just 6 of their names. "we", "us" ? Just 6 names is all I ask. If you're going to preach to me as the spokesman for the 'divers of Ontario' you'd best be prepared to show me you have their backing!

Your "triple A" list of air stations includes 4 dive stores so far - 3 in the Ottawa region and 1 in Toby. Promote away puffer! It's going to be a long, hot summer for divers. Not only do you NOT speak for the divers of Ontario, even the dive store owners ignore you! If that is the extent of your triple A list, perhaps I should avoid it!

I have never said I had CSA certification because there is no such a thing (read above). I did say that I exceed CSA standards and proved it. Trace Analytics (which so far on this thread is used by more stores than your pet Maxamm) does not test for methane or volatile non-methane. No Internationally accredited lab is required to do so unless a store asks for it. Hell puff, you can't get methane from an electric compressor - it (like Carbon Monoxide) comes from the atmosphere according to both Jordair AND Maxamm! If you feel my air should not be used by divers because Trace doesn't test for a gas that can't exist, take me off the list!

This thread which by sheer virtue of your tenacity has stayed alive for 7 pages and 101 posts is currently the longest active topic on this section of the board. What is your agenda? You have yet, despite my asking you to do so, supplied a single piece of evidence that there is a threat to divers or even a hint of a problem in the air supply in Ontario. All of your last 10 posts have said the same thing over and over - Ontario dive stores have bad air AND they must test to CSA standards using a Canadian lab. The first statement is a bare-faced lie; the second came from the same source.

On your knees you sinner!!

seahunter

June 1st, 2003, 01:50 AM

I just re-read my own last post and I apologize to puff and other readers.

I am simply annoyed that despite my best efforts to provide the best air possible for divers, it's not enough to satisfy you. It seems puff will not be content until I start using Maxamm again and test for the two non-existent gases in the CSA standards. He doesn't even get air at S2k!!

However I apologize for my brusque manner and sign off.

I accept private emails with pleasure.

Al Mialkovsky

June 1st, 2003, 01:55 AM

A shop can have all the current certificates in the world. But they also need the best equipment and filters. I had some bad air in my tank last year from a top shop. What happened was there was a forest fire in progress. I was in a hurry, they filled the tanks and during my first dive I got very very sick and was rushed to the hospital. Seems the filters they used didn't filter out the contaminants caused by the forest fire.

They have now switched filters. When I emailed them about what happened they shut down all fills on the spot.

A piece of paper is only that. Means little in the real world.

Bubble Boy

June 1st, 2003, 02:17 AM

seahunter once bubbled...
I spoke to Jordair on Thursday about their CO monitor. They advised me to NOT buy one (at $3000 I wasn't exactly about to send an order anyway).
Their premise is (they are the compressor and high pressure air purifying experts in Canada) that an electric compressor with a clean air intake and high heat protection can not have a problem with CO. Suki (sales manager) indicated that the only CO that gets into a scuba tank came from the exhaust of a gas engine or from the ambient air (didn't we discuss this before?).

A sales manager that does not want to sell one of his products. Do you think Bauer Germany is aware of this? Despite Jordair having a monopoly for Bauer in Canada, they are far from experts.

seahunter once bubbled...
1. Our filters are rated as good for 60 hours. We change them at 50. A test at hour 1 or at hour 50 should be the same. The rating on the filters does not allow the air to get progressively worse.

Get your facts straight. Filters are less efficient the older they are. If you take your sample right after changing the filters it should pass. Try it after a couple hours for a true result. You should use the test to evaluate your system. Some shops take a sample prior to changing the filters to make sure everything is working correctly. Seahunter, you yourself have said the filters are toast once they get wet. They dont go bad in the first five minutes. If you have ever read the manual that comes with your compressor you will see that it refers to keeping a log of the compressor hours and the temperature & relative humidity to calculate equivalent hours. So your 50 hours might actually be 75.

seahunter once bubbled...
2. The large number of international creditation certificates that Trace holds far outweighs CSA accreditation.

In your opinion it might but not the MOL's. You have noted that the shops in Eastern Ontario seem to be using an accredited lab but that is not because PADI suggested it. It is because the MOL has already visited them.

seahunter once bubbled...
Clearly, since dive stores (well certainly PADI 5 Stars) test their air and post the test for their customers (divers) self-regulation works very well

Well in the last two weeks I have been made aware of at least 7 padi 5 star facilities that have not even tested their air since July of 2000.

seahunter once bubbled...
Divers can come to S2K knowing as they have for years that our air is the best available.

Why would divers think that....because you told them? Give me a break. What you don't know wont hurt you. That is the same thinking behind resort courses.

seahunter once bubbled...
We take more care than anyone else.

Well obviously those testing to a CSA standard are taking more care.

seahunter once bubbled...
We post the results.

Thats good. The average diver does not know what they mean. I was in a dive shop two weeks ago and the shop proudly displayed its test results. The only problem is they failed to meet the standard and the shop owner did not even realize it.

seahunter once bubbled...
We're happy to discuss our air system with anyone.
When do you take your samples in relation to the filter change?

At what pressure is the flow for the samples you send to Trace?

seahunter once bubbled...

Hell puff, you can't get methane from an electric compressor - it (like Carbon Monoxide) comes from the atmosphere according to both Jordair AND Maxamm! If you feel my air should not be used by divers because Trace doesn't test for a gas that can't exist, take me off the list!
You must have misunderstood something. Methane has been found in samples from electric compressors. Yes it may come from the atmosphere as you like to put it but so does your air intake.

seahunter

June 1st, 2003, 09:41 AM

6 names - just 6 names of divers who have appointed you as "their" spokesman and who really care about what is now clearly self-interest babble!!

It's certainly clear to me and the few members I've spoken to that this thread has served it's purpose for which all participants including puff can take credit. The fire is out! You can stop beating the bushes! I've been trying to cooperate with the ideas expressed here so much that I've neglected my fill station.

Don't lecture me on compressor maintenance. I've rebuilt more than you've seen! Ask Fred.
Filters have ratings in CFM for which they are effective barring a major breakdown or an unusual environmental anomoly. Just as we do with the CSA standards, we exceed those ratings by changing them BEFORE they're due. It's an unnecessary but comforting practice. Even Jordair expresses surprise that we do it but it's a hard practice to criticize (I'm sure you'll find a way).

FYI, we have an automatic temperature controlled compressor room.
Again S2K scores a knockout!! Oh! Oh! Is that an infomercial? I will never apologize for promoting S2K and certainly not when done in response to your question or comment!
Don't ask and I won't tell you how good we are.

If you haven't caught on yet puff, criticising my scuba practices is like trying to convert Jesus. Why don't you go after the dive shops that you claim are not up to snuff or even trying instead of sniping away at the 2 or 3 that are obviously NOT a problem or at S2K that is clearly the leader?

GTADiver

June 2nd, 2003, 02:36 AM

seahunter once bubbled...
6 names - just 6 names of divers who have appointed you as "their" spokesman and who really care about what is now clearly self-interest babble!!

It's certainly clear to me and the few members I've spoken to that this thread has served it's purpose for which all participants including puff can take credit. The fire is out! You can stop beating the bushes! I've been trying to cooperate with the ideas expressed here so much that I've neglected my fill station.

Don't lecture me on compressor maintenance. I've rebuilt more than you've seen! Ask Fred.
Filters have ratings in CFM for which they are effective barring a major breakdown or an unusual environmental anomoly. Just as we do with the CSA standards, we exceed those ratings by changing them BEFORE they're due. It's an unnecessary but comforting practice. Even Jordair expresses surprise that we do it but it's a hard practice to criticize (I'm sure you'll find a way).

FYI, we have an automatic temperature controlled compressor room.
Again S2K scores a knockout!! Oh! Oh! Is that an infomercial? I will never apologize for promoting S2K and certainly not when done in response to your question or comment!
Don't ask and I won't tell you how good we are.

If you haven't caught on yet puff, criticising my scuba practices is like trying to convert Jesus. Why don't you go after the dive shops that you claim are not up to snuff or even trying instead of sniping away at the 2 or 3 that are obviously NOT a problem or at S2K that is clearly the leader?

Sounds like Puff the Magic Dragon has struck a never Seahunter. Yet, you still manage to turn it into a sales pitch for your shop.

When reading this thread it seems that the intent is quite clear--Educate the divers to check for a valid certificate. You however keep on getting involved in the thread. I have spoken to Fred about your compressor. Do you need him to show you the pressure gauges again and explain how to monitor them so you dont blow both the third and fourth stages? Fred does great work but the fact that you claim to be rebuilding compressors scares the sh@# out of me.

Do you find it hard to fathom that six divers in the province might actually want good air? THANKS PUFF FOR SHARING YOUR WISDOM WITH US.

Seahunter why do you think your store is a leader? Is it the number of certs you put out. Puppy mills put out a lot of dogs but it does not mean they are the best breaders.:D

seahunter

June 2nd, 2003, 10:46 AM

Thanks for your insight GTA.

Please read this whole thread PLUS the other one on 'air quality' and then get back to me.

In fact,

1. I am so far the only training center who has directed it's instructors to ensure all our new divers (1500+/annually) ask for an air quality certificate wherever they are and I'm enforcing that directive every week at the new diver classes until it is standard procedure.
I have therefore not only been involved in this thread topic from the beginning but I've acted on it quickly and effectively!!
If I may be so bold, I suggest that my act in this regard will have a more positive effect on diving generally in Ontario with regard to diver safety and air supplies than all the rhetoric between the half dozen readers of this thread. Am I right puff? Next!!

2. From 1970 to 1990, I bought, rebuilt and sold dozens of compressors many of which are still in operation in Ontario and beyond. I have not done so for several years. I'm too busy; the compressors are much more sophisticated; I don't need the liability problem and Fred does a great job for me!

My understanding of the theory and practical operation of a compressor and filters is far above average for dive shop owners.
My air supply system is far above average for dive stores in terms of sophistication, operational safety and pure air integrity.
Not a compressor in existence runs indefinatley without occasional breakdowns even with meticulous maintenance and care. Your attempt to blame me for such an unpredictable event shows your ignorance of compressors. Fred himself has had compressors he just rebuilt or service malfunction on start-up.

Each statement in this point (#2) can be confirmed by Fred (I guess we've chosen him as the expert as I described him earlier) and, since your post implies some wrongdoing on my part, I expect you will also do exactly that and then post his reply.

3. S2K is NOT #1 because we're the biggest.
Hint - when all other stores are struggling and more than a few established stores are closing we just had a near-record sales day on Saturday with approximately 250 customers between 11 and 6. There were 13 customers waiting at the door when we opened at 10:45 - we finally locked up at 7:15. And we didn't even have a sale on!!
You see, quality comes first and then you get big!!!

BTW, since you place a lot of faith in Fred's opinion (and I don't disagree), ask him what he thinks of S2K's business practices and success. Please post his reply here if you dare. While Fred had never 'owned' a dive store, he has been around a very long time, he knows every owner - past present and dead, he knows the 'club scene', he knows air, he knows every store. Obnoxious at times, loud and opinionated for sure but also knowledgeable. Now you see why Fred and I get along!!

4. 6 names!! I simply asked for 6 names of divers who have chosen puff to be their spokesman, as he claims, in this regard.

seahunter

June 2nd, 2003, 11:05 AM

BTW, it's my job to promote S2K.
I'm very good at it as the sales, diver recruits and training stats indicate.
I will never pass up an opportunity to do so.

I have said it before on this board when criticized for talking about S2K, if you don't want hear about it, don't ask about it.
I state only fact. It obviously irritates you so don't give me the opportunity!

Also FYI, most intelligent dive stores owners appreciate the fact that S2K attracts and trains so many people to the sport of scuba diving. They know, as you should, that the survival of the sport, the growth of the sport, the drop in retail prices we've seen in the last 10 years, the increase in quality dive sites and more is dependent of a steady stream of new divers. They, as well as the charter operations and other diver related businesses, also appreciate that S2K can't possibly provide all the sales and service the new divers will need for years to come. I suspect more than a few would be annoyed if I stopped increasing the customers for the dives stores in Ontario.

If it's any consolation to you, any incidental promotion of S2K on this board is pretty well wasted on the dozen regular contibutors. Most of them already know S2K and either love it or hate it. Nothing is likely to change their mind.
You, of course, are perfectly free to send your friends to any other dive store of your choosing. Don't let the Free Air fills, the 7 day/week accessibilty, the in-store pool, the regular high quality training, the large, well-stocked Pro Shop, the incomparable customer service, the unmatched Customer Guarantees, etc - it's all on the website, stand in your way. Send your friends elsewhere.
If it helps, I have no ego when it comes to business so, if you or your friends ARE going to visit S2K, simply call ahead and I'll step out for an hour so you don't risk being accosted by me!! That way you get to see the leading scuba center without me - perfect!!

seahunter

June 2nd, 2003, 11:11 AM

Bubble, please PM me with the names of the 7 PADI 5 Stars that do not keep their air tests current.
If you've not done so, I'll definately and properly notify the PADI Police and have them hauled away in the PADI Wagon.

Seriously, it irritates me more than you and I will take care of that problem pronto!

As with the new diver info about 'asking for air certificates', don't let it be said that I don't act when it's warranted!!

pufferfish

June 2nd, 2003, 11:22 AM

I'll post it here too. From a Globe and Mail Morning Smile,

"People who get carried away with themselves often have to walk back alone"

seahunter

June 2nd, 2003, 11:31 AM

I have the experience, self-confidence and ability to walk anywhere, anytime and, given a choice, I'd usually choose to walk alone.

Knowing you as I do puff, you felt the G&M quote (which I like) applied to me when, in fact, as my posts show it is S2K I love and promote, not myself.

But that's OK. With your permission, I will use that neat quote in the weekly newsletter under the S2K Thought For The Day. I will need the author's name though so he gets proper credit. Was that today's Globe?

pufferfish

June 2nd, 2003, 12:18 PM

Sorry don't have the Globe and Mail date but I can give you the book source I found the quote in.

"The Balancing Act" by Barbara Killinger (Key Porter Books)

Chapter 5 (pg 75) entitled "Narcissism, mirror mirror on the wall who is the fairest of them all?"

Hope that helps :)

SneakyB'tard

June 2nd, 2003, 01:20 PM

I have filled the SCBA units for several fire departments for many years and done a lot of their tank service work too. - seahunter

I am simply annoyed that despite my best efforts to provide the best air possible for divers, it's not enough to satisfy you. It seems puff will not be content until I start using Maxamm again and test for the two non-existent gases in the CSA standards. - seahunter

Oops, Did you tell the Toronto Fire Dept about your lack of diligence in this matter?

Your problem has now tripled in size....Let's hope there are not any firefighters on this string!

SneakyB'tard

June 2nd, 2003, 01:27 PM

I have never said I had CSA certification because there is no such a thing

Trace Analytics (which so far on this thread is used by more stores than your pet Maxamm) does not test for methane or volatile non-methane.

[QUOTEFrom Trace Analytics (May 29,2003):

Thanks for your question, it made me purchase the revised standard and review it carefully. I'm pleased to say that we anticipate being able to provide analyses according to this specification. Our Lab Director will make a final determination later this week. The differences between the specs are:

CSA vs CGA

Carbon Monoxide: 5 ppm vs 10
Carbon Dioxide: 500 ppm vs 1000
Methane: 10 ppm vs No Limit
Volatile Non-Methane: 5 ppm vs 25 (as methane)
Volatile Halogenated Hydrocarbons: 5 ppm vs No Limit
Oil, Particulates, & Condensates: 1 mg/m vs 5 mg/m[/QUOTE]

pufferfish

June 3rd, 2003, 12:30 AM

When one reads this it is easy to appreciate the importance of having a well maintained compressor. There are many steps in the production of safe breathing air where things can go awry.

Intake diameters and length, filter changes, oil changes, ambient air temperature, humidity, and contamination all impact on the quality of the fill received by the diver. The production of your breathing air is a very complex process.

Hence the importance of seeing those recent CSA Z180 certificates on hand. Ask for them.

Compressor Theory (http://www.divecompressors.com/tech.html#compressed%20air%20system)

seahunter

June 3rd, 2003, 09:20 AM

Your comment suggests there is something wrong with my air sneaky! Spell it out - are you saying publicly that the my air is bad?

The topic about fire departments and other institutions has been introduced under 'Free Air Fills'. It ain't pretty but it's there!

Good link puff. I would love to get some of the 'experts' on this thread into the store to actually see how much time, effort and money is spent on our air station. There's little point in describing it since I'd not be taken seriously. Fortunately for y'all, we take the air supply very seriously.

I also checked my certificate again and Trace DOES supply the total for methane which BTW is well below specs for my air. The only missing value is for volatile non-methane - another non-possibility from my system (I use synthetic oil).

To prove that this thread, whether irritating or not, has been worthwhile, allow me to summarize the benefits so far:

1. my unnamed store which is the largest recruiter of new divers in Canada has instituted a strict policy of informing all new divers and all previously trained divers of the importance of checking for an air certificate. Please note that this is NOT required by any major cert agency.
2. every reader is now well informed about air standards
3. you all probably know more about compressors, filters, maintenance, costs, etc relating to an air fill station than most other divers (maybe more than some store owners)
4. you more clearly understand what regulations are in effect regarding air fills including to whom they apply and don't apply
5. Trace will add the test for volatile non-methane before my next test in July
6. I've got to believe that many air stations and for sure lots more divers will be watching for those certs.

So it's been very worthwhile and the credit goes to puff, bubble, sneaky, GTA and others including (?) that irritating SOB sh!

seahunter

June 3rd, 2003, 09:26 AM

BTW bubble, I was serious about the names of the 7 PADI 5 Stars that don't test as required by PADI. Please send them.

PM me.
Email me at home alec@encode.com .
Email me at dive@ scuba2000.com .
Get someone I don't know to email me.
Fax me.
Call me from a pay phone.
Leave the names in a brown envelope under the tree in front of the store.

I want those names!

pufferfish

June 3rd, 2003, 10:38 AM

seahunter once bubbled...
So it's been very worthwhile and the credit goes to puff, bubble, sneaky, GTA and others including (?) that irritating SOB sh!
If we include that irritating SOB and "others" you got your six names easily :D

seahunter

June 3rd, 2003, 08:04 PM

Hey! Don't include me!!
No one speaks for me - except me!!

seahunter

June 3rd, 2003, 08:16 PM

BTW puffer you're going to be famous!

I used your quote as I said in the weekly e-letter. It'll be going out to about 5000 divers tomorrow afternoon. You can see it at http://www.scuba2000.com/new.htm .

I'm off to NYC tomorrow for a few days so you'll have to wait until next Monday to yell at me!!
Y'all be good while I'm gone.

pufferfish

June 4th, 2003, 11:34 PM

If all you Ontario divers aren't convinced yet to ask for those air certificates then have a look at this, in particular the pile of 'failed filters' for oil and particulates. That black and brown 'stuff' may be what is heading down your trachea, brochi, and into those alveoli if you are using a fill station that is not testing. I have gone into eight fill stations between Kingston and Burlington over the last month and seven had not tested their air for over a year. For several shops the last tests were from three years ago. NO tests nada,zilch right here in Ontario. In fact one still had the air certificate on the wall from three years ago!
I will let our readers draw their own conclusions about what risks they might be exposed to from any of these seven fill stations.

One point that is not clear in the above thread is ALL PADI facilities not just 5 star ones in Canada should be testing quarterly by an accredited lab. In this province one is lucky to get a test once a year by an unaccredited lab like the OUC. Another reason to use an accredited lab is well explained in this link with reference to oil and particulate sampling.

Ask for those recent accredited certs, its absence might be harmful to your health!

Bad Air Info (http://www.airanalysis.com/Is%20air%20analysis%20necessary.htm)

pufferfish

June 5th, 2003, 12:15 AM

At Fill Express in Florida one can go to their website and see the most recent air certification with the credentials of the lab too. This is obviously a progressive fill station owner who realizes safe air tested quarterly by a certified lab is not only good for the diver, but good for business too.

Not wanting to complicate things further but notice the term "OCA" (oxygen compatible air) in Fill Express's chart. This OCA air used to mix with oxygen to produce Nitrox meets even more rigourous standards than CBG Grade E (CO <2ppm ; oil and particulates <.1mg/m3) Does your Nitrox fill station in Ontario even know what OCA air is?

Seven out of eight shops recently checked in Ontario had no testing at all and the other was using an unaccredited lab (OUC) and mixing nitrox. Now that is worrisome :(

Shouldn't Ontario divers expect more from their dive industry?

Fill Express (model fill station) (http://www.fillexpress.com/library/pedigree.shtml#fx)

taz22

June 5th, 2003, 05:54 PM

seahunter once bubbled...
BTW bubble, I was serious about the names of the 7 PADI 5 Stars that don't test as required by PADI. Please send them.

PM me.
Email me at home alec@encode.com .
Email me at dive@ scuba2000.com .
Get someone I don't know to email me.
Fax me.
Call me from a pay phone.
Leave the names in a brown envelope under the tree in front of the store.

I want those names!

LOL

I wonder, should we have OFWF Awards? One for the funniest poster, poster that most promotes him/herself and/or any scuba related business they work for that involves compensation etc etc?

SubMariner

June 6th, 2003, 11:52 AM

BTW bubble, I was serious about the names of the 7 PADI 5 Stars that don't test as required by PADI. Please send them

Why should the names be sent to YOU, Alec? If they should be sent to anyone, they should be sent directly to PADI Canada.

BTW, I agree with Taz22 on the awards. :thumb:

~SubMariner~

pufferfish

June 6th, 2003, 05:21 PM

seahunter once bubbled...
PADI does in fact require the quarterly air tests to be on file. Some stores are not too diligent there either. It has nothing to do with Randy Giles. All facility monitoring is done from California.

Skip Alec, skip PADI Canada, and send them directly to California.

seahunter

June 9th, 2003, 12:11 AM

I don't give a damn who sends the names to PADI (PADI International BTW) so long as some one does!!

I wasn't trying to act like any kind of diving cop - it's simply that too often on this board and by the people on this thread wild claims are made to support a point of view.
Too often those claims are BS!!

It smacks of McCarthyism and it's distasteful!!

If you know of stores (PADI or not) that are pumping bad air as claimed - DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!

In this latest case it was claimed that a member knew of 7 PADI 5 Star facilities that have not tested their air in a long time.
My point is simply that, if it's true, report it.

Here's your options:

1. Send the names to PADI.
2. Send me the names and I'll send them to PADI without using your name.

I don't believe the member knows of 7 PADI 5 Stars with untested air as he claims. If he does and doesn't report it, he's as bad as they are. If he doesn't and has simply used the claim to scare up support for his point of view, he's a liar and not a friend of the scuba industry.

On Friday next, June 13, I will contact the IRRA at PADI to see if the names have been reported and I will publish here the results of the query then we'll know.

A few posts back I listed the benefits that have come from this thread already. Maybe there is another benefit - we may soon know who among the vocal contributors is really serious about helping the industry and the divers and who is simply blowing and sucking!

Go ahead guys - line up now and criticize me!! At least I take action when it's obviously needed.
Of course, if you don't think stores with suspect air should be reported, you could tell us that too.

How illogical for anyone to criticize me when the store I support gets mentioned on this board but NOT demand to know the names of stores with bad air.
You guys are unbelievable!! Think about it!

seahunter

June 9th, 2003, 12:15 AM

BTW taz, try to keep up.

I recently took the time to tally up the mentions of different dive stores in a current thread compared to mentions of my favorite dive store.
As I recall there were over 20 stores mentioned in total.
My favorite was mentioned 5 times.
4 of those mentions were by other members.

I'll accept that award but you're giving it to the wrong person.

seahunter

June 9th, 2003, 12:18 AM

Strictly speaking puff only PADI 5 Stars are required to have quarterly testing.
Of course I agree all dive stores should have quarterly testing.

pufferfish

June 9th, 2003, 12:45 AM

Ah Seahunter it was so quiet and peaceful while you were away. Can we arrange some longer trips for you out of the country? :D

"If you are a PADI dive center in the U.S. or its territories, as of January 2000, you are required to have your air checked by a laboratory each quarter. There are no exceptions. If you have questions about PADI QA policy, contact the PADI QA manager, Roger Josselyn at 800-729-7234, ext 339. "

This is from one of the lab sites mentioned above, but I emailed PADI Canada to see the requirements here and they sent me the following reply:

" Both 5 Star Dive Centre and PADI Dive Centre are subject to the same air test requirements."

Therefore I would suggest you check your facts again as they don't seem to jibe with what PADI is saying. All PADI dive centres should be testing quarterly in fact not just PADI centres but all fill stations should be testing quarterly.

cat

June 9th, 2003, 12:53 AM

I was going to stay out of this thread from here on in but in the interest of fairness...

seahunter once bubbled...
I don't give a damn who sends the names to PADI (PADI International BTW) so long as some one does!!

(post snipped for brevity, not content)

IMO, seahunter is dead in the black on most of this, especially with regards to his point about McCarthyism. I don't share his belief that the non-compliant stores don't exist but I DO share his conviction that *if* these non-compliant 5 stars exist then they *should* be reported because something might actually get done about it by PADI, even if the provincial gov't does nada. Wasn't this thread started in the hopes of improving overall air quality control? Isn't whacking a few stores into quasi-compliance by finking on them to their agency a step in that direction?

If you've witnessed non-compliance in PADI 5-stars - meaning you know of some that aren't getting air tested to either Canadian or US standards, then yes, name them or report them to PADI. Reporting seems like the better option because other stores that don't test aren't being named (only those that do) and because these posts will remain public long after any corrective action is taken.

Give PADI a chance to do something - maybe there's a problem with their internal checks (do copies of the air certs get sent to them, seahunter?) and this is the only way they'll find out. Or maybe they don't really care about clean air and nothing will happen. Either way, worth finding out and it's unfair (and pointless) to complain without letting PADI know that the problem exists.

GTADiver

June 9th, 2003, 02:17 AM

cat once bubbled...
Give PADI a chance to do something - maybe there's a problem with their internal checks (do copies of the air certs get sent to them, seahunter?) and this is the only way they'll find out. Or maybe they don't really care about clean air and nothing will happen. Either way, worth finding out and it's unfair (and pointless) to complain without letting PADI know that the problem exists.
In all fairness to PADI, they are not the only agency not looking after their own standards being met. Randy at PADI Canada needs a good kick in the a@# to smarten up. He should be monitoring that the stores are meeting local standards! But, in all fareness so too should be NAUI, PDIC etc. Just as an example, there is a NAUI/PDIC facility in Kingston, that shall remain nameless, that has not tested its air since July of 2000. That is almost three years ago! That actually is the case of several dive shops as that is the last time Jim P went arround the province doing air testing for the OUC.

Chet

June 9th, 2003, 02:18 AM

Let's say there are that many PADI stores that have not sent in results and they are reported. What do you think they are going to do. I will tell you NOTHING!!!!!! If these rules have been in place as you say PUFF "If you are a PADI dive center in the U.S. or its territories, as of January 2000, you are required to have your air checked by a laboratory each quarter. There are no exceptions" Then why are these dive stores still PADI dive shops three years later. I know they have to renew every year. It is simply, and this does not only include PADI, as long as the money is paid for the dive store you can still play the game. SIMPLE Air quality and certificates mean nothing to them because if it did, these so called places would not be PADI dive centres anymore. I think what seahunter has said all along self-regulation is the best course. So your approach by enlightening the fellow diver, as all of you have been doing on this board is the best one and this is very good self-regulation here.
Be SAFE!!!
Chet

P.S. PUFF, I don't think you have to worry about the gov and PADI police in the GTA because it seems dive stores are dropping like flies around Toronto and by the time those two groups do anything there will not be many left. The dive store owner is an endangered animal in these here parts.

pufferfish

June 9th, 2003, 11:31 AM

Chet, I would suggest you read and post during daylight hours when maybe you will see more clearly that self-regulation is NOT working. As I said above (did you read this) seven out of eight fill stations with employees I have visited in the last month have not tested their air for over a year. And just to be fair this is not just a PADI problem. This is a systemic problem for all fill stations in Ontario which potentially could severely injure or kill a diver.

One can safely say that the majority of shops in Ontario have not tested their air for over a year. If one excludes those shops using OUC which is not an accredited lab either here or south of the border then one can reliably say over ninety percent of fill stations have not tested their air for over a year.

SELF REGULATION BY PADI, NAUI, or NON-AGENCY AFFILIATED SHOPS IS NOT WORKING IN ONTARIO

The Ministry of Labour has a law in the Province of Ontario that states as a minimum, regardless of any agency you are affiliated with, if the shop has employees the fill station must meet CSA Z180.1 air requirements twice a year. For starters this is the level of testing (CSA Z180.1) 'us' the divers of Ontario are working towards. PADI is only interested in collecting membership dues from their shops and not enforcing any air standards as is painfully obvious here in Ontario, and I suspect in the rest of the country.

seahunter

June 9th, 2003, 04:30 PM

I'm so glad you missed me guys!!

Puff is first - All PADI Facilities whether 5 Star or not have the same air test requirements BUT... only a 5 Star is required to submit the tests to PADI each quarter.
All such matters are handled strictly by PADI Americas (California) NOT by PADI Canada. Certainly reporting problems to PADI Canada will start the process but PADI Canada and Randy Giles are facilitators for the process. Neither actually gets involved in the QA process nor affects that process.
Each quarter PADI publishes the names and addresses of PADI Pros and PADI Facilities that have been disciplined and in many cases have lost their PADI affiliation. Don't say it doesn't work. It does work but it needs the cooperation of the diving community just as nabbing a criminal needs the cooperation of the community. Hiding your head and refusing to help solve the problem IS THE PROBLEM!!

I guarantee that if someone calls PADI and alerts them to an unsafe training practice or to a dive facility that is not in compliance, they will take immediate and effective action.
I likewise guarantee that if you don't alert them to a problem, they won't take action.
It's your choice!!

Thanks for your support cat. It's really so simple to me. If I see any business in any industry breaking rules that are there for the public safety and don't report them, I'm as guilty as the business of being irresponsible. It's even worse if I discuss the fact I'm aware of the problem on a public forum and still balk at reporting the business. Now I'm almost getting into an area of liability.

Why should the store remain nameless GTA? You ought to be more concerned about a diver's family taking you to court for negligence than about the dive store owner being PO'd because you reported him. I know you have no qualms about giving store owners a hard time!

God it feels good to be back. NYC was fun but the Scuba Board is the greatest!!

GTADiver

June 14th, 2003, 12:32 AM

Doppler once bubbled...

I can vouch for the air quality at DiveTech in Mallorytown. Like everyone else here in Ontario now, they have their air checked every 6 months and there is a bottle on its way for analysis as I write this.

Dan is able to give Nitrox and Trimix fills and -- for what it's worth -- I use him almost exclusively when I'm in that area.

I was in Dan's the other day. His air test was done by the OUC. The OUC tests to the 1985 version of Z-180.1. They test to the 1985 version as they are not capable of testing to the 2000 version. The 85 version is not sufficient to tell if the air meets the grade required by IANTD and TDI for blending.
****However, I do want to be clear on what I am stating....he has not tested to any current standard but when you see his setup and filtration system you would suspect that it would pass a proper test. He has all sorts of filtration.

GTADiver

June 14th, 2003, 12:38 AM

seahunter once bubbled...

Why should the store remain nameless GTA? You ought to be more concerned about a diver's family taking you to court for negligence than about the dive store owner being PO'd because you reported him. I know you have no qualms about giving store owners a hard time!

God it feels good to be back. NYC was fun but the Scuba Board is the greatest!!
Are we allowed to use a stores name in a negative post? I though by mentioning it was a NAUI shop would limit it to the one guilty culprit.

seahunter

June 15th, 2003, 10:10 PM

Pardon my ignorance GTA but I've no idea who is a NAUI store or who isn't. That has never been a big concern to me.

However, in direct response to your question, since many stores are recommended on this board by name including some that have only limited support from the diving community. It certainly seems to me that, if a store is definately not meeting it's responsibilties it ought to be named.

It makes sense that if a store does a good job it derserves a pat.
If it's NOT doing a good job and if that fault is placing divers at risk, it MUST be named!!

I have been trying without success to get the names of stores that according to some memebers are pumping bad air. The problem you see, is that divers ***** but do nothing. Then they ***** some more when the situation doesn't improve!!

Assuming the comments from the divers are truthful (maybe that's the catch), there can be no harm, in fact, nothing but good from naming the stores. No one can get into trouble so long as the intent was honest and based on first hand information.

Hence my cynicism when some one says something bad about a store but will not name the store so we can do something about the situation. It's pretty clear to me that they are either unsure of their facts or know quite well their statement is false.

seahunter

June 15th, 2003, 10:17 PM

What's wrong with the word b-i-t-c-h?

The Websters dictionary cleary indicates it is acceptable for use to descibe a female dog or a complaint!!

My command of the English language has received more than a few compliments and my choice of words is never thoughtless. I chose the word because that is exactly the meaning I intended. Many complaints from divers (in this context) are not legitimate and can only be described as b-i-t-c-h-i-n-g! They serve no useful purpose other than to bolster the diver's opinion of himself.

pufferfish

June 15th, 2003, 11:37 PM

seahunter once bubbled...
I have been trying without success to get the names of stores that according to some memebers are pumping bad air. The problem you see, is that divers ***** but do nothing. Then they ***** some more when the situation doesn't improve!!

Assuming the comments from the divers are truthful (maybe that's the catch), there can be no harm, in fact, nothing but good from naming the stores. No one can get into trouble so long as the intent was honest and based on first hand information.

Seahunter don't start putting words in people's mouths. No one here has said a particular shop is pumping bad air but we have said some shops including PADI 5 star facilities have not tested their air since July 2000. The potential for bad air from a compressor which has not had the air tested for three years is very high as likely the same operator who doesn't give a **** about testing the air he lets his employees use and sells to the public is also cutting corners on filter and oil changes too.

Listen if you want proof about the lack of testing just put on some dark sun glasses, a trench coat, a wig, and start checking all the PADI shops between Brampton and Whitby. I can tell you if you exclude testing by the OUC as they are nothing but an unaccredited lab in the woods you will find over 95% of the shops have not tested in over a year. If you want more proof go to all the shops not just the PADI ones and you will be equally as dismayed at the lack of testing. Sometimes it is necessary to come down off your mountain and cross the moat in order to see what is going on around oneself instead of fabricating the reality one would like to see. Your expectation-reality gap with regards to the status of air in this province is almost wide as that between Mel Lastmen and his lack of knowledge about SARS and the WHO.:boom:

If you want more facts I can tell you NO shop with employees between Brockville and Brampton as of the May long weekend and this Seahunter INCLUDES your shop too has met the very basic MOL requirements of biannual testing to CSA Z180.1. In Kingston one shop has not tested for a few years and the other which claims to be a 5 star PADI facility and offers trimix uses the OUC where one doesn't know whether the reported CO level of 2 ppm is that or 20 ppm as the OUC has no external accrediting agency checking on their accuracy and precision of testing. If I was a technical diver in Ontario I would be very hesitant to take any blended mix where the air was being checked by OUC. Just remember that any contamination found at surface is multiplied by the absolute pressure at depth. In other words a CO level of 10 ppm on surface at 200 feet would have the same negative health effect as a CO level 70 ppm. This goes for all the other potential contaminants as well. Shops in the States blending air with oxygen or helium insist on OCA air ( oxygen compatible air to ANDI or IANTD standards). Instead here in the Brockville-GTA corridor we have shops blending air using OUC tested air which is then taken to over 200 feet. In Brockville it is the same dismal story as in Kingston. One is lucky to get a recent OUC cert and the one shop blending gas is relying on OUC testing as well.

My message here is that the state of air testing in this province is dismal. I have been in eight shops between Kingston and Brampton and seven had not tested their air in over a year. There is no point in having a negative list as we would have to put over 95% of the fill stations on the list if we were ask for the very minimum MOL requirement of two tests to CSA Z180.1 be met. It is far better to post those few shops who have made the effort to offer certified air to their customers. I contend once there is one shop in town doing testing to CSA Z180 the rest will be forced to follow suit or else lose business. Please patronize and offer a pat on the back to those shops who have made an effort to offer their customers CSA Z180 air as the MOL requires.
That is what our certified air list encourages.

Cat and SH I agree with you in that if one knows of shops not meeting the standard they should be reported. Yes the worst offenders should be chased down first like those who have not tested since July 2000. Then those who are using OUC and then those who are only testing to CGA Gr E level.

The problem is we are not the air police. We all are the air police. Every individual diver in this province should be insisting his or her fill station test to CSA Z180.1 by a certified Canadian lab. One of the goals of this thread was to provide the necessary info to the divers of Ontario so as to confront their shops about these issues. Let me tell you anyone who has read this thread from start to finish knows more about air quality and compressors than most scuba instructors and shop owners. You are now armed so go out and do some of the field work yourselves.

This thread has highlighted the problems in this province with the lack of air testing to a recognized level (CSA Z180.1-00) and provided you with the ammunition to confront or educate the delinquent shops. About 95% of the shops are not testing at all so there is a lot of work to be done by all divers in applying the necessary pressure to their fill stations. Remember if you the customer doesn't insist on proper air certification it may be some time before the MOL, PADI, or NAUI get around to doing so.

I can assure the readers of this thread though that the worst case offenders (no testing for over a year) are being brought to task behind the scenes. Just remember that this takes time to write letters, call various people to get the facts (like Ruby Ochoa at Trace Analytics), and follow up on these findings. A lot of this is done on people's spare time after their day jobs. Please be patient and change will happen but it will happen sooner when the divers in their local areas like Kingston and Brockville also apply pressure on their fill stations to meet the MOL law or those requirements of their agency affiliations. Just remember complacency will eventually kill and somewhere sometime with no air testing bad air will be pumped. Just hope you are not on the receiving end. It is out there as Doppler found out last year with his OMS tanks.

So just as the letter from Trace Analytics didn't magically appear here remember things are happening slowly behind the scenes and you should see that list of shops meeting MOL requirements start to grow over the summer.

pufferfish

June 15th, 2003, 11:57 PM

A fine example where one shop raises the bar and the others in the area will follow.

I have verified that Diver's Den in Tobermory now has a Maxxam Analytics certificate from June 12/2003. They have the third largest fill station in Canada (ten tanks at once) and very friendly staff.

Congratulations to Diver's Den for bringing their air certification up to a level that the Ontario (and US) diver can feel confident in.

This now means that both dive shops in Tobermory have met or exceeded the CSA Z180.1-00 requirements. Please pat these shop owners on the back for taking the lead in the province of providing pure and certified air to their dive customers.

Congratulations to both shops :)

pufferfish

June 16th, 2003, 12:05 AM

The following Ontario shops have a recent Canadian air certificate showing they meet or exceed the requirements of CSA Z180.1 standard for compressed breathing air.

1. Dive Center Ottawa www.divecenter.ca
2. Ron's Scuba Cornwall
3. Dolphinos Ottawa www.dolphinos.com
4. G&S Watersports Tobermory www.gswatersports.com
5. Diver's Den Tobermory www.diversden.ca (web site needs updating as it still states OUC )

Tests by the OUC are not recognized as certified. Certifications must be less than six months old and preferably less than three months old.

Still waiting to hear about any Brockville or Kingston shops. If I have missed anyone please post the shop's name.

When you do buy fills from these shops knowing they have made a genuine effort to provide divers with safe air please tell the owner this is why you are patronizing their store. Postive reinforcement works wonders.

Dan MacKay

June 16th, 2003, 11:03 AM

pufferfish once bubbled...
The following Ontario shops have a recent Canadian air certificate showing they meet or exceed the requirements of CSA Z180.1 standard for compressed breathing air.

1. Dive Center Ottawa www.divecenter.ca
2. Ron's Scuba Cornwall
3. Dolphinos Ottawa www.dolphinos.com
4. G&S Watersports Tobermory www.gswatersports.com
5. Diver's Den Tobermory www.diversden.ca (web site needs updating as it still states OUC )

Tests by the OUC are not recognized as certified. Certifications must be less than six months old and preferably less than three months old.

Still waiting to hear about any Brockville or Kingston shops. If I have missed anyone please post the shop's name.

When you do buy fills from these shops knowing they have made a genuine effort to provide divers with safe air please tell the owner this is why you are patronizing their store. Postive reinforcement works wonders.

It all becomes a little clearer now, Pufferfish. Seeing as how you own/work for or what ever for Diver Center Ottawa it does you a great service to stir up crap over certification for this and that the same way you claimed or behind everyones back claimed that all Ottawa stores were flogging 'bad air'. Coincidentaly this was at the time that the fire station contracts were up for bid. Not a bad deal if you want to perform a character assination and make a little money at the same time. No biggy. I guess we should all travel to Stittsville to on a semi weekly basis basis to get air as that is the only place in the world that has safe air to breath. Good grief!

GTADiver

June 16th, 2003, 12:24 PM

The Tick once bubbled...

It all becomes a little clearer now, Pufferfish. Seeing as how you own/work for or what ever for Diver Center Ottawa it does you a great service to stir up crap over certification for this and that the same way you claimed or behind everyones back claimed that all Ottawa stores were flogging 'bad air'. Coincidentaly this was at the time that the fire station contracts were up for bid. Not a bad deal if you want to perform a character assination and make a little money at the same time. No biggy. I guess we should all travel to Stittsville to on a semi weekly basis basis to get air as that is the only place in the world that has safe air to breath. Good grief!
Hey Tick you are looking really foolish now. Several of us on the board know Pufferfish. He is a Doctor in Toronto. So do you work for or are you one of the many owners of KDS?

eagleray2003

June 16th, 2003, 12:56 PM

The Tick once bubbled...

It all becomes a little clearer now, Pufferfish. Seeing as how you own/work for or what ever for Diver Center Ottawa it does you a great service to stir up crap over certification for this and that the same way you claimed or behind everyones back claimed that all Ottawa stores were flogging 'bad air'. Coincidentaly this was at the time that the fire station contracts were up for bid. Not a bad deal if you want to perform a character assination and make a little money at the same time. No biggy. I guess we should all travel to Stittsville to on a semi weekly basis basis to get air as that is the only place in the world that has safe air to breath. Good grief!
READ the post tick it seems to list a few more stores than 1 or does Puffer own a string of dive shops that we don't know about?
You seem to have concluded that Ottawa stores flog bad air, I haven't seen any post that singled out a specific area but Puffer has been refering to a province wide problem of non compliance.

SneakyB'tard

June 16th, 2003, 01:04 PM

Ordinarily he was insane, but he had lucid moments when he was merely stupid.
Heinrich Heine (1797 - 1856)

seahunter

June 16th, 2003, 08:54 PM

Puffer's long and detailed post is one of the few I've seen from him that was reasonably logical and controlled from start to finish.

His vociferous efforts to motivate the divers to 'police the air' are commendable. On a recent PM to GTA, I reiterated the same desire as, in fact, I have clearly done on numerous occasions in this thread - so, puffer is certainly right on the point that this thread has been beneficial. He now accepts that it is the diver's responsibility to police the air. The divers must speak up and complain publicly about bad air stations and support and promote the good ones. No one else will, should nor do we want them to do that.
BTW I'm still waiting for the names of the 7 'bad' PADI 5 Star Facilities!

Now for the bad news:
1. I am bald and look ridiculous in a wig. I can and do walk into any dive store anywhere in NA and talk to the owner or staff anytime I want. It does no good to be a 'sneaky bastard'. If the air certificate is not on the wall, they're one of the bad ones already. Agreed?!
2. I resent the accusation that I'm an absentee owner and I resent the comparison to Mel. I was in the water at Kirkfield putting down the plane for divers to enjoy. I had dirt on my hands from 2 days of work on the airplane to get it ready. If I didn't seem concerned about the 'bad air' situation in Ontario, it's not because I wasn't there - it's because I did not and STILL HAVE NOT seen nor heard of any bad air problems! Several of you have stated that dive stores don't have up-to-date air test certificates and that's a concern but it's not a 'bad air' problem.
Let's work together to get that situation corrected before it becomes a 'bad air' problem.
3. G&S is a fine store and has great air. They are our recommended shop in Tobermory. We take over 500 divers to Tobermory each summer and we use the services of G&S. But, the number of filler whips has no bearing on the size of the fill station. I or any store can add as many fill whips as we'd like. The CFM of the compressor and the storage capacity is the measure of size of an air station. An example to use for comparison would be ours with 21 CFM (new) and 30 - 450 cu ft. 4500 psi bottles. I can fill 25 scuba tanks at once and over and over again for quite some time without even starting the compressor. When I was last at G&S they had two smaller compressors running with a modest bank. The compressors ran almost continuously through the weekend (sometimes all night too) just to keep up.
4. So, using the Scubaboard system (I guess you all agreed when I was away that puffer IS the spokesman for the divers on this board!), we can get air at any one of 3 stores in the Ottawa region or in Tobermory. Gonna' be a long summer.
5. You're still misleading the readers either intentionally or through ignorance by continuing to state that air tests must be made by a Canadian air test center. You are so darn picky most of the time it's strange you can't get it straight that any air test center that is certified to test to CSA standards is OK - like Trace.
6. Z180.1 is no magic potion. It is the current requirement by the MOL for air for employees. Whoopdee-doo! That doesn't make it perfect nor even necessary for divers. We've been diving for years with air standards much different from Z180. For the last many years divers have safely dove all over the world using air tested to Grade E. Please explain what's wrong with Grade E for divers or are you suggesting that the standards imposed by the MOL automatically make all other standards unsafe? Realize before you answer that there are one heck of a lot more divers diving safely using air at Grade E than at Z180 (like maybe 100 to 1). I'm not suggesting Z180 isn't good or shouldn't be utilized - I just question the air of superiority that you assign to the MOL. Aren't they just down the hall from the MOH and the MOE?
7. In the same vein, again you're not being completely accurate despite your nomal pickiness. Z180 is NOT required by stores for their customers as your last post says.
8. Please don't muddy the waters by suggesting that all divers need nor even want air for their scuba diving based on the additional requirements needed by high O2 mixes for tec divers. Different world, different standards, different thread!

BTW, you're right about Trace. They do strive to please their customers (unlike Maxxam, Novamann or NoM'am or whoever they are) and have just sent their customers an email indicating they will supply air tests to CSA Z180 for just $20 more than the normal Grade E. This now introduces the bizarre situation wherein I will get 2 tests each year to CGA Grade E and 2 tests each year to CSA Z180. All because I have to cater to at least 3 different groups - CSA to make the MOL on behalf of my employees happy (2 Z180 tests annually); CGA to make PADI happy (2 additional air tests annually); my customers who want good air as cheap as possible.

pufferfish

June 17th, 2003, 12:18 AM

Hello The Tick,
Welcome to the board but may I recommend you stop, think, and pause before acting (posting) further. If you had read this thread even the last few pages you would not have made the comments that you have above. Not a good strategy to wear out your welcome after so few posts.

While I would love to own a dive shop (ok maybe not) I have no affilitation in any form whatsoever to the shop you have mentioned. I have never been in it or spoken to its owner. The Dive Center in Ottawa was only the first shop someone posted here as having met the CSA Z180.1 air requirements. I live in the GTA and do not earn a penny from the dive industry. Diving for me is just a hobby I enjoy.

May I suggest you redeem yourself by reading the post on page 6 entitled "Who we are?". After that if you have something positive to contribute please do.

Doppler

June 17th, 2003, 03:54 PM

The Tick once bubbled...

It all becomes a little clearer now, Pufferfish. Seeing as how you own/work for or what ever for Diver Center Ottawa it does you a great service to stir up crap over certification for this ....

SNIPPED

Hi The Tick:

Well, I don't know of a really nice way to cushion the blow here mate, but you are so out of line and so wrong!

Late this morning, I had a very long and very interesting conversation with Puffer from his office somewhere in the GTA... and unless I was smoking weed and hearing things wrong, he sounded exactly like a physician... which is basically what his profile says he is... SO I don't think he's involved with any scuba stores... and, for the record, neither am I.

As for the reasons he's "stirring up crap" over air quality, why don't you ask him... better yet, read his posts. I think you'll find his motives are quite unselfish... or at least smack of enlightened self-interest.

I don't know how you feel about apologizing, but you might wanna try practicing it... my opinion is you owe one. And if you have a problem with that, PM me. Keep your illogical nonsense off the board...

"Facts neither true nor false, they are merely facts." The Tick in a lucid moment....

Dan MacKay

June 17th, 2003, 09:54 PM

Doppler once bubbled...

Hi The Tick:

Well, I don't know of a really nice way to cushion the blow here mate, but you are so out of line and so wrong!

Late this morning, I had a very long and very interesting conversation with Puffer from his office somewhere in the GTA... and unless I was smoking weed and hearing things wrong, he sounded exactly like a physician... which is basically what his profile says he is... SO I don't think he's involved with any scuba stores... and, for the record, neither am I.

As for the reasons he's "stirring up crap" over air quality, why don't you ask him... better yet, read his posts. I think you'll find his motives are quite unselfish... or at least smack of enlightened self-interest.

I don't know how you feel about apologizing, but you might wanna try practicing it... my opinion is you owe one. And if you have a problem with that, PM me. Keep your illogical nonsense off the board...

"Facts neither true nor false, they are merely facts." The Tick in a lucid moment....

Quite right you are Doppler. I do stand corrected and sincerly apologise to Puffer for the diatribe that I tossed in his direction. I guess the vitriol should have been aimed at others..Bubble Boy comes to mind. In any case I hope that you will accept my apology Puffer.

Doppler

June 18th, 2003, 05:54 AM

The Tick once bubbled...

Quite right you are Doppler. I do stand corrected and sincerly apologise to Puffer for the diatribe that I tossed in his direction. I guess the vitriol should have been aimed at others..Bubble Boy comes to mind. In any case I hope that you will accept my apology Puffer.

Nicely done The Tick... and I apologise for being... well, a little in your face.

Take care... for the record, Puffer is starting to convince me that this air quality issue needs investigating more deeply.

doppler

Bubble Boy

June 18th, 2003, 07:04 AM

The Tick once bubbled...

Quite right you are Doppler. I do stand corrected and sincerly apologise to Puffer for the diatribe that I tossed in his direction. I guess the vitriol should have been aimed at others..Bubble Boy comes to mind. In any case I hope that you will accept my apology Puffer.
Maybe you should keep the apologies coming. I am not affiliated to any dive shop but I do believe in getting good air.

Dan MacKay

June 18th, 2003, 08:27 AM

Bubble Boy once bubbled...

Maybe you should keep the apologies coming. I am not affiliated to any dive shop but I do believe in getting good air.

Hmm..define not affiliated.

In anycase of all the dive shops around ontario you contend that there are only four that have 'good' air. Except for Dan's that is, that due to the way his filter tower looks he 'should' have good air. This cracks me up.

At best all you can say is that the rest of the air may be untested. Even if it is tested it may not be good enough for you as it might not have had the 'right' kind of testing. Get off the soap box.

Listening to you I would think that there are only four places that you would be willing to dive or at least get air. It must be a real peach to dive with you when you go abroad just to help you lug all your air cylinders aboard the plane/train/automobile. Try and find a testing certificate in Mexico, Singapore, Malaysia, Phillipeans, etc.

How many documented 'bad' air scenarios have you run across? None that I can think of. Yet there is no better way to put the crimp on a competitor than by spreading the dreaded 'bad air' rumour as then it is neigh near impossible for a shop to prove that it has 'good' air.

Get off the soap box. Shop where you want and quite pontificating about stuff that you read about in the manual and little understanding of.

Try diving instead of just talking about it. I find that it is a great relaxer.

Bubble Boy

June 18th, 2003, 08:57 AM

The Tick once bubbled...

Hmm..define not affiliated.

In anycase of all the dive shops around ontario you contend that there are only four that have 'good' air. Except for Dan's that is, that due to the way his filter tower looks he 'should' have good air. This cracks me up.

At best all you can say is that the rest of the air may be untested. Even if it is tested it may not be good enough for you as it might not have had the 'right' kind of testing. Get off the soap box.

Listening to you I would think that there are only four places that you would be willing to dive or at least get air. It must be a real peach to dive with you when you go abroad just to help you lug all your air cylinders aboard the plane/train/automobile. Try and find a testing certificate in Mexico, Singapore, Malaysia, Phillipeans, etc.

How many documented 'bad' air scenarios have you run across? None that I can think of. Yet there is no better way to put the crimp on a competitor than by spreading the dreaded 'bad air' rumour as then it is neigh near impossible for a shop to prove that it has 'good' air.

Get off the soap box. Shop where you want and quite pontificating about stuff that you read about in the manual and little understanding of.

Try diving instead of just talking about it. I find that it is a great relaxer.
I dont know who you are, nor do I care. I am participating in the thread because I think it is along the correct path. I am not saying any one store is better than the other. I must admit that Seahunter has me tempted to pay a visit to his store as it sounds awesome. I am saying look for an air test. Regardless of the trainning agency they all refer to having air tested. There are shops that are not. As divers we should support the stores that follow their agency standards. Your obviously feeling a little stressed....maybe you should go for that dive.

eagleray2003

June 18th, 2003, 03:50 PM

What is a Tick? Anasty little bug that gets under the skin and must be squashed!

Dan MacKay

June 18th, 2003, 05:36 PM

eagleray2003 once bubbled...
What is a Tick? Anasty little bug that gets under the skin and must be squashed!

Now there's and excellent comment on the subject of air quality. Actually I like living life on the edge and seeing how many dives I can survive on using uncertified air.

I will ask once again has there ever been a incident caused by a documented case of 'bad' air? If there has been then please inform the unwashed masses. Other wise I might have to contend that considering that the active dive population of Ontario being what it is must conduct hunreds of thousands of dives a year, most on 'uncertified' air as you contend, that statistically this is not an issue.

cat

June 18th, 2003, 06:16 PM

eagleray2003 once bubbled...
What is a Tick? Anasty little bug that gets under the skin and must be squashed! And a rather funny little "alternative" comic that was turned into a cartoon. Hmm. Does your dive buddy have big floppy rabbit ears? :D
<lecture mode> and strictly speaking, ticks aren't bugs - or any kind of insect. They belong in the class Arachnidia, along with spiders <end lecture mode> But they do seem to enjoy getting under our skin, don't they? :rolleyes:

pufferfish

June 18th, 2003, 06:23 PM

Tick your apology is accepted but you are still treading on pretty thin ground here. I see in your other posts you mention a particular dive shop at least a half dozen times. Please don't bring your anxieties about that unfortunate situation into this thread.

I would encourage you to read this entire thread before you post here further. Those who have been with us from the start like Seahunter, Bubbleboy, Cat, Sneaky, Eagleray, GTAdiver, Doppler, and myself have hashed out many of the topics you claim we should educate ourselves on.

In fact the readers of this thread are now experts in what PADI, NAUI, and the MOL require in terms of compressed breathing gas testing. Some of the PADI experts like Seahunter have even had to update some of their facts because of this thread. Readers also know the difference between no testing, OUC testing, CGA Gr.E and E2 air standard, CSA Z180.1-00 air standard, and possibly even what oxygen compatible air is. Compressor theory has been covered with respect to intake diameters and lengths, filter and oil changes and what can go wrong when these are not done properly. Readers know what dessicant, activated charcoal, and hopcalite is and does. Some of the earlier readers even know about low dose CO toxcity from another thread.

We know the difference between no accreditation (OUC testing), Canadian accreditation (Standards Council of Canada), and US accreditation used at labs like Trace Analytics (A2LA).

We know about CO failure rates for scuba and scba air sent to two of the largest accredited labs in the US (it ain't pretty).

So until you bring yourself up to speed on all these topics by reading this thread please go diving and chill out.

The spirit of this thread has been to identify the extent of the problem in Ontario with regards to air certification compliance. As stated earlier I have been in eight shops and seven haven't tested in over a year, some three years. This is clearly unsafe and not acceptable. We had to decide though when creating a list of 'safe air' shops what standard we would accept. Because we live in Ontario and the MOL has a requirement it was decided to request this. Shops with employees have to meet this anyways so this very minimum requirement is not too much to ask for. Are you advocating a no testing policy and the I have 'faith' in my shop's air purity standard? No testing does not necessarilly mean a shop is pumping bad air, but it does mean the risk is far greater. I do not care to be on the receiving end of bad air, and if some level of testing is not set then one will never know when the tank you pick up is the unlucky one. Untested air is a risk I am not willing to accept and I would contend that most rational divers would agree. Diving should not be a game of Russian roulette where one wonders (at least in Ontario in the 21st century) is this the tank that I get injured from. Go back in the thread and read what Doppler found in his tanks last year and only because they were due for a hydro. Five hundred mls of water, oil, dessicant, and charcoal found in his tank would likely have killed him at 200 feet probably even 100 feet. Bad air does happen at random intervals and the time interval between bad air incidents decreases as the frequency of testing decreases. Producing a good clean safe fill is based on science and proper testing. Would you advocate the city of Ottawa stop testing your drinking water for a year? I suspect not.

As it appears you are from Ottawa and must be affiliated with some shop (we will assume with employees) why not instead of posting here willy nilly ask the shop to show you the most recent certification to CSA Z180.1-00 standard that should be on file. I'd gladly add the shop to the list as the third Ottawa shop if they have a cert less than six months old as they should have for MOL requirements. It is very simple Tick show the CSA Z180 cert and the shop's name goes on the list. And if they are a PADI 5 star facility why not ask for the last four quarterly ceritifications they should have on file to CGA Gr E standard. I suspect like most of the shops in the province you will come up empty handed.

Make it your goal to get your LDS on the list before the end of July. Now that would be putting your energy towards something postive.

pufferfish

June 18th, 2003, 09:47 PM

seahunter once bubbled...
BTW, you're right about Trace. They do strive to please their customers (unlike Maxxam, Novamann or NoM'am or whoever they are) and have just sent their customers an email indicating they will supply air tests to CSA Z180 for just $20 more than the normal Grade E. This now introduces the bizarre situation wherein I will get 2 tests each year to CGA Grade E and 2 tests each year to CSA Z180. All because I have to cater to at least 3 different groups - CSA to make the MOL on behalf of my employees happy (2 Z180 tests annually); CGA to make PADI happy (2 additional air tests annually); my customers who want good air as cheap as possible.

KISS= Keep It Simple Seahunter

That sounds way too complicated. So you will have to pay $30 CDN more per quarter plus return shipping to Texas and customs brokerage fees too.

Why not just have all four done at www.seatech.ns.ca and be done with it. Paul Fewer is a diver and charges $205 per quarter including shipping one way. No brokerage fees either. The MOL will be content, PADI will be pleased, your customers reassured, and S2K will have raised the bar for air certification to a new level in Ontario.

For $850 CDN a year or 17 cents a fill (you said you do 5000 fills) you will have four Seatech Z180 certificates and nothing for us to harass you about anymore. Now that is a real win-win deal don't you say :mean:

seahunter

June 19th, 2003, 11:12 AM

It's my choice to avoid Maxxam whether logical or not. It's normal behavior for a consumer who is put off by a retailer in any business to avoid that store in the future despite alleged changes and improvements. I may be in the scuba business but I still act normal in many areas of life. It may be illogical and unfair but it is part of retailing and the 'new' management of Novamann accepted the good and the bad when they took over.
I still have not been contacted by Maxxam re giving them my business.
I called them about their service and got an unsatisfactory response. This event was detailed in a recently past post.
I will not use Maxxam if it can be avoided!

I will check into seatech, but, there would have to be a good reason to change and money is not necessarily the reason.
There is no postage costs, shipping, duty, taxes, fees or other costs in dealing with Trace. They mail to me the test kits for the year. I do the test and mail the sample bottles to them ($3.25CDN) and they email, fax and mail the results and cert back to me.

Just for the record, I cannot think of any 'facts' that were new to me from this post. Everything else you've stated as being beneficial from this long and tiresome thread is 'dead on'.
S2K has instituted a couple of new policies as a result of suggestions that were discussed but I can't think of any facts I updated.
As far as the new policies at S2K, that is the reason I've even involved here - to get ideas on how to stay 'on top'. I have solicited suggestions and I consider every one. Most I reject but even if one or two are good and practical, we will try them. That makes the aggravation and time spent here worthwhile. I do get annoyed at the dozens of posts from divers which are just b---- sessions and offer no new ideas or suggestions. Those posts are dealt with as they should be - deleted!

How are y'all making out with getting others stores to do the same or can I claim that 'only S2K gets involved in detailed discussions with the divers of Ontario to better improve it's service'?

pufferfish

June 24th, 2003, 01:49 PM

Diver's Den in Tobermory has changed their web site to reflect the change from OUC testing to the new air certification dated June 12/03 from Maxxam Analytics.

Once again thanks DD for ensuring the divers in Tobermory have access 'triple A' certified air (CSA Z180.1).

www.diversden.ca

pufferfish

July 2nd, 2003, 08:04 AM

I have been told that this fill station in Ottawa now has a current CSA Z180.1 certificate from Maxxam Analytics. Their web site still needs to be updated to reflect the change from uncertified OUC air testing to certified testing.

Burton's Dive (www.burtonsdive.com)

Congratulations to Burton's Dive!

More stations to come this month :)

pufferfish

July 2nd, 2003, 08:09 AM

The following Ontario shops have a recent Canadian air certificate showing they meet or exceed the requirements of CSA Z180.1 (2000) standard for compressed breathing air.

1. Dive Center Ottawa www.divecenter.ca
2. Ron's Scuba Cornwall
3. Dolphinos Ottawa www.dolphinos.com
4. G&S Watersports Tobermory www.gswatersports.com
5. Diver's Den Tobermory www.diversden.ca
6. Burton's Dive Service Ottawa www.burtonsdive.com

Tests by the OUC are not recognized as certified. Certifications must be less than six months old and preferably less than three months old.

Still waiting to hear about any Brockville or Kingston shops. If I have missed anyone please post the shop's name.

When you do buy fills from these shops knowing they have made a genuine effort to provide divers with safe air please tell the owner this is why you are patronizing their store. Postive reinforcement works wonders.

Jimmy B

July 2nd, 2003, 08:39 AM

Instead of hammering the dive stores and looking for a new Ontario Lobby for divers, Puffer Fish. Go on step further.

Get involved with OUC and have them switch to your perfered testing place. Then call all the Dive stores, Charters, Instuctors, Clubs and SOS/POW and have them pay up their dues and breathe some life back it to it.

Living in Toronto you and GTA diver can do this, I have faith in you.

JB

pufferfish

July 2nd, 2003, 09:58 AM

Jimmy B once bubbled...
Instead of hammering the dive stores and looking for a new Ontario Lobby for divers, Puffer Fish. Go on step further.

Get involved with OUC and have them switch to your perfered testing place. Then call all the Dive stores, Charters, Instuctors, Clubs and SOS/POW and have them pay up their dues and breathe some life back it to it.

Living in Toronto you and GTA diver can do this, I have faith in you.
JB

JimmyB we are not looking for a new lobby for Ontario divers. We are looking for existing dive shops to meet existing very simple compressed breathing gas requirements that have been in exisitence for many years. Is it too much to ask to have our underwater 'drinking water' tested by a professional certified lab certified lab ONLY twice a year? I think not. The city of Toronto tests its water for tasteless and odourless potentially lethal substances every four hours.

As for the OUC I have expressed some of my thoughts on this organization earlier on this thread which you may have missed.
Ontario Governing Body (http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30001&perpage=15&display=&pagenumber=1)

The OUC should NOT be in the business of testing diver's air period. They do not have the proper equipment nor the trained personal to offer reliable testing. I personally have elected not to be a member over this issue. Others have left the OUC over this issue.

Maybe the OUC needs to sit down and ask themselves what should be their vision and mandate in the 21st century for Ontario divers. It should not include a cash grab by offering substandard testing to air fill stations who basically don't know the science behind air analytics (concept of precision and accuracy). The fact the OUC has not been able to cut off the 'uncertified hand' that feeds it ($$ from air testing) is a reflection of the lack of visionary leadership in that organization. Maybe once this withering hand is removed then the OUC will be forced to either go the way of Eatons or reinvent itself like IBM did and become a legitimate organization whose budget will come from the dues of "Dive stores, Charters, Instuctors, Clubs and SOS/POW " who see the OUC genuinely serving their needs.

Now Jimmy how about getting that dive shop you often recommend to stop using the OUC. By continuing to use the OUC they are part of the problem. Instead they should spend a little more time researching the huge blind spot in risk that exists in using uncertified air with possible contaminants at high partial pressures. Have a look at this progressive technical fill station's web site and then gently tell your shop not only does using a certified lab make excellent safety sense, but also very good business sense. Divers (especially the technical ones) want hard evidence that the air they breath at 7 atm is ultrapure. Hard evidence is a certificate on the wall from a certified lab and not the hogwash I have heard like, "I have tried the air and I trust it."

Living in the Kingston-Ottawa area you can do this, I have faith in you :)

Progressive Fill Station (http://www.fillexpress.com/library/pedigree.shtml)

pufferfish

July 10th, 2003, 08:53 AM

Brockville divers now have their first air fill station which meets or exceeds CSA Z180.1-00 standard.

ABUCS Scuba (www.divebrockville.com) now has a Maxxam Analytics certificate to show divers who are looking for air, Nitrox, or Trimix fills.

Congratulations to ABUCS Scuba for leading the way in Brockville!

pufferfish

July 10th, 2003, 08:56 AM

The following Ontario shops have a recent Canadian air certificate showing they meet or exceed the requirements of CSA Z180.1 (2000) standard for compressed breathing air.

1. Dive Center Ottawa www.divecenter.ca
2. Ron's Scuba Cornwall
3. Dolphinos Ottawa www.dolphinos.com
4. G&S Watersports Tobermory www.gswatersports.com
5. Diver's Den Tobermory www.diversden.ca
6. Burton's Dive Service Ottawa www.burtonsdive.com
7. Abucs Scuba Brockville www.divebrockville.com

Tests by the OUC are not recognized as certified. Certifications must be less than six months old and preferably less than three months old.

Still waiting to hear about any Kingston shops. If I have missed anyone please post the shop's name.

When you do buy fills from these shops knowing they have made a genuine effort to provide divers with safe air please tell the owner this is why you are patronizing their store. Postive reinforcement works wonders.

pufferfish

July 14th, 2003, 04:20 PM

Greater Toronto Area divers now have the first accredited fill station which meets or exceeds the CSA Z180.1 air standard.

Aquarius Scuba now has a recent Maxxam Analytics certificate to show divers who are looking for air or Nitrox fills.

In fact divers can view the Maxxam Report of Analysis right on the web along with the Certificate of Conformance.

www.aquariusscuba.com click on tank fills link

Jimmy B

July 18th, 2003, 07:48 AM

Puffer my main fish,

Got a question, what if a shop in Ontario vastly exceeds the standard but has not used Trace, or Maxiums labs.

Are they still ok?

JB

SneakyB'tard

July 18th, 2003, 08:18 AM

I believe that as long as the certification states that the test meets or exceends the standard, and the lab in question is accreditied and certified to do such tests, the air is acceptable.

Bubble Boy

July 18th, 2003, 08:37 AM

Jimmy B once bubbled...
Puffer my main fish,

Got a question, what if a shop in Ontario vastly exceeds the standard but has not used Trace, or Maxiums labs.

Are they still ok?

JB
There are several labs that can be used. The key is to use an accredited lab that utilizes appropriate testing proceedures. The standard specifies "accredited lab".

pufferfish

July 18th, 2003, 03:10 PM

Jimmy B once bubbled...
Puffer my main fish,

Got a question, what if a shop in Ontario vastly exceeds the standard but has not used Trace, or Maxiums labs.
Are they still ok?
JB

Good question JB. I would say if there isn't an actual certificate saying the air meets CSA Z180.1 (2000 not 1985) breathing gas standard then no they are not ok. The lab decides whether you meet the standard not the shop owner.

Secondly if the shop has not used an accredited lab like Cantest, Seatech, or Maxxam but has used an unaccredited lab like the OUC with no independent external monitoring of their accuracy and precision, then one cannot know whether the results you receive are reliable and therefore really do, "vastly exceed the standard". What if the precision is good but the accuracy is off and reading low. An actual CO of 15 ppm gets reported to you as 3 ppm and you think great we are well below the standard of 5 ppm when in fact the actual value is 15 ppm. You tech guys carry redundant gauges to reduce 'points of failure' and yet not a peep about possible points of failure in the air monitoring chain. What if your SPG consistently reported the same data point at each depth but this gauge depth was always fifteen feet shallower than the actual depth. If you can imagine the consequences of this diving then we are on the same page regarding the problems with using uncertified labs to test diver's air. As long as a shop is using an unaccredited lab the results cannot be relied upon and the divers are put at risk and the fill station owner likely greatly increases his liability exposure. Does the owner's liability insurance specify the type of lab to be used?

You might consider the fact that the MOL specifies as a minimum standard the use of an accredited lab. A judge who is looking for precedent in a bad air case likely would not look too favourably on a shop found to be using an unaccredited lab even if the fault was found with the lab analysis. The responsibility lies with the fill station owner to decide what lab he or she uses. Using a lab where the accuracy and precision of the results recieved is not known in my mind represents a large unknown liability to the fill station should there be a bad air incident from an accuracy problem.

sisterJ

July 18th, 2003, 07:13 PM

You have our interest. Could you please provide some detailed information regarding air quality.

Just a couple of questions here to get the ball rolling. I done what you asked and read all 165 posts and have some unanswered questions.

1. A call to the OUC today and found that they are testing to the standard outlined by the CSA. Should that not be suffice?

2. Recently a couple people have been asked to step down from OUC postions. BTW this happened just about the same time this thread started. Humm

3. Someone mentioned that Dan Humble has lots of filtration so he should be ok. no certificate, yet he is still listed as one with acredited air, how so?

4. You indicated that a store hasn't tested in 3 years, but wouldn't mention it. But you have stated others by name that are not testing. How so?

5. Can you provide a list of any case of CO poisoning from scuba shop provided gas? You have made several references to diving mix to 200ft. Have you had a bad experience and that is the reasoning for the thread? Could you please provide us with a breif synopsis of your mixed diving history?

6. Who exactly are we the divers? Please do not post another essay, please try to provide just the details/facts names would be helpful? The reason I ask is that "we the divers" over here have never heard of you.

7. Finally for this post where can I find the actual listing of accredited testing facilities? I would like to see either the ministry of labour listing or the CSA listing in its genuine form.

If these documents are not availible on the web would be so kind as to provide contact names and phone numbers?

Sister J

pufferfish

July 18th, 2003, 09:57 PM

You have our interest. Could you please provide some detailed information regarding air quality.

Just a couple of questions here to get the ball rolling. I done what you asked and read all 165 posts and have some unanswered questions.

***SJ you are to be commended if you waded into the world's longest thread at this late stage. However the 'devil really is in the details' in all this air certification maze hence longer explanations are often necessary. I will try to be brief and try and refer you back to the thread if I know the answer is in there. Unforutnately I don't know how to do the cut and paste thing here so I apologize for the confusing format. I have tried to put my replies in between the ***.

1. A call to the OUC today and found that they are testing to the standard outlined by the CSA. Should that not be suffice?

***If you check more carefully you will find the OUC is not being truthful. The current standard is CSA Z180.1 (2000) which you can see at www.seatech.ns.ca under the compressed breathing gas page. The OUC is only testing to CSA Z180.1 (1985) with the number in brackets representing the year the standard was set. Where is the proof you say? Look at the Seatech page and the parameters tested and compare that to the parameters on the OUC cert on the shop's wall you frequent.

I suggest you call the Ministry of Labour yourself and ask what they will accept. I think you will find it is a Canadian accredited lab testing to CSA Z180.1-00. The OUC is neither accredited nor testing to the year 2000 standard.

Even if the shop doesn't have employees and not required to meet the MOL requirements, in the case of a bad air scenerio the judge will look to what the minimum standard is for fill stations with employees. Use of an unaccredited lab will likely be a large liability even if the the air was reported as okay by the lab but subsequently found to be bad by an accredited lab. The shop will assume all of the liablity. If I was a fill station owner I would seek clarification with my insurance carrier on this matter.

The other misinformation the OUC has been spreading lately is the cost of an analysis from an accredited lab. It is not $395 as I heard last week but $215 at Maxxam and $205 at Seatech. We are not talking about big bucks here guys to do two of these a year.

So I would take anything the OUC says as an attempt to preserve a source of income and business that they shouldn't be involved with in the first place. Leave the testing of diver's air to the professionals who offer reliable testing.***

2. Recently a couple people have been asked to step down from OUC postions. BTW this happened just about the same time this thread started. Humm

***Please don't start any conspiracy theories over this one. There are enough of those on those threads about the relationship between GUE, Jablonski, and Halcyon.:D I personally am not a member of OUC and never have been. I have a personal interest in seeing them get out of the air testing business as it is substandard testing and endangers the lives of Ontario divers. Let the OUC reinvent itself as JimmyB suggest as an organization dedicated to promoting the sport of diving in Ontario not testing divers air.***

3. Someone mentioned that Dan Humble has lots of filtration so he should be ok. no certificate, yet he is still listed as one with acredited air, how so?

***You have not been thorough enough in your reading of the thread. If I am not mistaken he was never put on the list although people asked about the shop. We have been told he uses OUC and hence is not on the list. If he now is using an accredited lab then we will put him on the list. Scuba2000 was on the list as they claimed they meet the standard but further research revealed the claim was false. Their name was removed. There are now eight shops on the list all of which have been verified as bonifide certificates. I think there are two more in the works. Kingston is the only dive tourist area without an accredited shop. Remember accreditation should be seen a making good business sense too. ***

4. You indicated that a store hasn't tested in 3 years, but wouldn't mention it. But you have stated others by name that are not testing. How so?

***We wanted this list to be a 'positive list' of shops meeting the minimum standard as laid out by the MOL. I would estimate that less than ten percent of shops in Ontario currently meet MOL standards. We are not really interested in hearing in public about the ninety percent that do not meet the standard, the list would be huge. We would rather promote exemplary shops who do understand these issues and have taken steps on their own initiative to offer safe air to Ontario divers. You may be right in that there was a section where a store or two was mentioned indirectly for not testing for three years. Those shops will be taken to task behind the scenes. I can understand the confusion over the accredited/unaccredited lab issue but for a shop to not test for three years in just plain negligent. ***

5. Can you provide a list of any case of CO poisoning from scuba shop provided gas? You have made several references to diving mix to 200ft. Have you had a bad experience and that is the reasoning for the thread? Could you please provide us with a breif synopsis of your mixed diving history?

***This issue was just dealt with on the Nitrox shop thread in a question asked by Marvintpa. Very briefly bad air situations are likely very underreported as it was and in some parts of the country still is very common in a diving death for the diver's air to not be analysed. Have a look at the DAN Alert Diver article from May 1998 on the subject of CO in scuba tanks. They state, "At first glance, the deaths appear to represent a statistically small problem in diving safety, but the circumstances surrounding Diver 1's death may in fact point to a larger problem. Most states and municipalities do not require testing of a diver's air in the event of a fatality." This is also true in Ontario. Forty percent of diving fatalities were reported as initial injury unknown. If you don't test the air in a death you don't know whether or not air was an issue. I spoke with Lawrence Factor in Florida and 3% of their scuba air samples still are failing for CO greater than 10 ppm. That is a very significant failure rate and if we have shops in Ontario not testing for three years who knows what is in those tanks. I am sure you must have read Doppler's story of his tank poison last year. Remember the risk of getting a bad tank may be low but the consequences of breathing that tank may be lethal at depth surrounded by H2O. Diving in Ontario in the 21st century should not be a game of Russian roulette especially when we are talking about $500 bucks for two accredited tests.

Nope I have had no mixed gas experience and have no bad experiences personally with bad air therefore no axes to grind with any shop. Lots of bad food though and E. Coli! You do realize though the very OUC air you are mixing is the same 'air' us recreational divers dive with. Despite using medical grade helium or oxygen if your OUC air is suspect that medical grade goes out the window and the fill quality is unknown. If you want to see what an owner who does know what he is doing with mixed gases have a look here www.fillexpress.com but remember the CSA standard is different than IANTD or ANDI.***

6. Who exactly are we the divers? Please do not post another essay, please try to provide just the details/facts names would be helpful? The reason I ask is that "we the divers" over here have never heard of you.

***That is answered in the "essay". You actually want more, don't get me going :) Ah somehow you have heard of us as you are asking very good questions. Kind of like DIR you know. The more you present the logical facts the more divers seem to listen and want to change bad habits,...no different here with our air 'doing it right' message :D You don't need facts or details of the loose coalition of Ontario divers who are asking shop owners to meet their safety and ethical obligations to the divers in their communities they serve. Again no conspiracy here and none of the individuals involved own a shop or are involved in the dive industry. We all have jobs outside of diving. We would have thought these concepts of safe air would have been a 'no brainer' for fill station owners but it is apparent many would still rather pump their water through lead pipes despite scientfic evidence this is harmful to one's health.***

7. Finally for this post where can I find the actual listing of accredited testing facilities? I would like to see either the ministry of labour listing or the CSA listing in its genuine form.

*** There are only three accredited labs in Canada for testing compressed breathing gas.
1. Maxxam Analytics in Mississauga www.maxxam.ca Contact Linda Mazepa
2. Seatech in Nova Scotia www.seatech.ns.ca Contact Paul Fewer (diver as well) Lots of good info on his site.
3. Cantest in Burnaby, B.C.

Very simple three labs. Choose one on the basis of location, friendliness, price, and willingness to answer your technical questions.

The CSA only sets the standard for compressed breathing air. The accredited lab then tests the fill station's sample to that standard. If it passes the station is issued a six month Certificate of Conformance. You can see a Maxxam report and certificate on this fill station's web site.
www.aquariusscuba.com (tank fills)***

If these documents are not availible on the web would be so kind as to provide contact names and phone numbers?

Sister J

Well I hope that answers your questions Sista. I apologize for not knowing how to 'cut and paste' your questions with my answers. I am off to Toby for the weekend and will gladly fill up at either shop there who have nice recent Maxxam certs on the wall. Too bad the same can't be said for shops in other dive tourist areas like Kingston :)

James Pate

July 18th, 2003, 11:27 PM

Pufferfish
I do not think you have answered any of the questions critically at all. All you are passing here are personal judgements and limited value statements. Please point us to the Ministry of Labour reg and section number which lays out the minimum requirements. We are not trying to be rude we need the details inorder to evaluate what you are saying here.

How can you justify passing percentages of shops that conform to or do not conform to the standard without real data to back it up. And you have yet to post any real data.

You have not answer the question of who "we the divers" are. The essay that you posted is just more of the same. You have yet to present us with any facts or data to support the basis of your argument. Please present us with the proof that "we the divers " actually exist and in what numbers. We want to know.

Personally, I like the GUE JJ Halcyon conspiracy theory. I think it is rather funny. IF only you knew!!!!!!!

You have continually stated that OUC should not be testing air. Why not? Their equipment is upto date. They recently purchased a new analyizer. And according to the certificate that I looked at they are testing to the 2000 standard. Please bear in mind I am no expert here. I am looking for answers.

sJ did not ask what www.seatech.ns.ca has to say regarding the Z180 standard. She asked and now I am asking for the the Ministry of Labours document which lists "what is an accredited tester" and "the list of companies". If you cannot produce the document then you really have no basis for you argument. If you have done your research then you must have the document readily available. If you cannot produce the document; at least have a reference number of the document that we may aquire a copy for yourselves.

I have not read anything on this thread to date that supports your position. Do not hold back. Bring the information and data to the table. If you really want to see divers take action all you have to do is present our dive team with the relevant facts to support your claim.

I appreciate you are heading out for a dive. Enjoy Toby but when you get back present us with your documentation. Once again do not hold back we are looking for your 'A' Game.

In parting, we are not trying to be rude we need the details inorder to evaluate what you are saying here.

Safe dives
James

SneakyB'tard

July 19th, 2003, 08:05 AM

I am part of the we.

I am a diver that sees the potential for failure within the air purity system. By demanding that air suppliers conform with the highest tests, we raise the bar on quality.

Everyone gets upset if their DVD is scratched at purchase, or that their car chugs on some brands of gas or oil, yet when it comes to a product ( and thats what air is a consumer end product) that we breath we are less wary and concerned. Just get the fill get on the boat and complain if the boat is slow or the waves are too high.

Air quality signs and symptoms are usually latent. If I breath 'bad air' I may blame my signs and symptoms on motion sickness or that greasy McMuffin I had..or maybe I was tired so I got Narc'd sat a shallow depth.

There is lots of proof of poor air standards and low quality. Puffer has named the shops that pump Z180 air. There are shops that pump clean air that just isn't tested to Z180....they are still good, but need that cert to satisfy my needs and my families.

Until the coroners office tests for the possibility of impurities in breathing air...there will be no proof.

As fr the OUC they are good for diver representation and information...not lab testing.

Just because my plumber has a dentist chair doesn't mean he is doing my dental work!

sisterJ

July 19th, 2003, 10:06 AM

SneakyBastard
That makes two of you now where are the rest.
We have not asked about plumbers, dentists or DVD. We want to see the documentation that defines the problem. The documentation that defines an accredited lab and the documentation that names the accredited facilities. We will cannot and will not accept a list of preferred air fill stations just because you have listed them here.

Once again I will say that we are interested. But you have to produce the documentation. If you cannot do so then it would appear that you have no grounds for the unqualified statements that you continually rehash throughout this thread. You cannot expect us to sit here and say that it must be true because you have said so. Only idiots do that. Please provide the evidence and the documentation. Drop the BS.

With the two of you being we the divers. Please list your qualifications, experience and/or reading and training that makes you an authority to be adhered to regarding air quality.

We all want clean air to breath. Dive shops want to pump clean air (it is in their best interest). Yet although you have been asked to define and prove the problem in a critical fashion several times throughout this thread and on the 'nitrox' thread; you have been unable to do so. Therefore at this point it would appear that might not be a problem after all.

We asked why the OUC should not test gas and you posted more of the same personal opinion that is posted throughout the thread. If you cannot address the question critically and factually then leave it alone. With your reasoning the supposed accredited test facilities should also stay out of the gas analysis field because they have other interests such as testing solvents and chemicals. You have an audience here with a modicum of intelligence and education. Now cater to us with the facts, details and documentation. Once again we need the information to assess our position and evaluate the problem. We will not blindly follow anyone on a �just trust me venture�. If you have no documentation then you have no case.

As James said �We are looking forward to your �A� Game�. We are very interested in what factual data you have to offer, please do not hold back.

sJ

James Pate

July 19th, 2003, 11:10 AM

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...
I am part of the we.

I am a diver that sees the potential for failure within the air purity system. By demanding that air suppliers conform with the highest tests, we raise the bar on quality.

If you see the potential for failure then you must have evidence and documentation to support your postion. Show us the evidence. We are interested, now persuade us of your postion by presenting the documentation to us. No more personal opinions or feelings. Provide the evidence

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...

There is lots of proof of poor air standards and low quality. Puffer has named the shops that pump Z180 air. There are shops that pump clean air that just isn't tested to Z180....they are still good, but need that cert to satisfy my needs and my families.

Then provide us with the proof. We are interested and need to see the evidence inorder to evaluate the weight of your argument. As sJ has said we cannot subscribe to your list of preferred air station just because pufferfish says so. Only idiots would do something like that. "Trust Me Ventures" are for the lame and weak minded. We require and request the documentation that supports your claims. We are not interested in DVD plumbers, dentists, mcmuffins or cars. We are trying to get a look at the documentation you have regarding air quality. We are not interested in company websites. We have even narrow the field of discussion. Just show us the Ministry of Labour documents that outline the criteria for an accredited test facility and that lists the accredited companies.

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...

Until the coroners office tests for the possibility of impurities in breathing air...there will be no proof.

Does this mean a coroner cannot detect CO or Co2 poisoning in a corpse? Be careful in how you proceed from here, as we have a host of medical knowledge available to us on the GUE Quest list.

Please cut the crap and produce the documentation.

James

KeyserSoze

July 19th, 2003, 01:15 PM

�Our pledge is to offer divers and educators a new alternative- one that is not afraid to take a stand for safety over financial gain and quality over quantity.�
I believe that quote came form your website GUE Guy and Gal

These guys are stating the need to improve quality and safety.....maybe you are on the GUE bandwagon but you don't follow the doctrine at all.

"man's mind once stretched.........." how does that go?

Look on the internet....Deaths all the time due to air contamination in commercial divers......
I have seen many dive shops that have staff that can't tell the time let alone fill a tank properly....I'm saying subscribe to the list...be open look yourself...learn...expand your mind

SneakyB'tard

July 19th, 2003, 01:32 PM

Forum for ideas

I can say that I am not a Doctor or Physic master. I am a quality professional that understands the need for continual quality monitoring and improvement.

When I see a breakdown in standardization and procedures, I see a potential for failure in the integrity of the product.

The proof and documentation requested is vast..quality improvement and evolution is a fixture of industry, manufacturing and customer service.

My comparison between air stations and retail stores is valid. A product is a product, how we demand and interpret quality of the product is up to the majority of consumers. If the customer wants better quality..the manufacturer had better conform or hit the street.

This is why we see 100's of standards for every item you use or buy..because of testing, accidents and quality improvement to avoid those accidents. A dead customer won't buy your product again.

I understand the DIR GUE point of view and respect and applaud it. If you think I am pointing fingers at your shop or agency...realize that there are 10x more non DIR shops out there running by the seat of their pants than you DIR shops.We are aiming at the fly by nighters.

http://www.scc.ca/certific/labs.html - Accredited labs Canada

A list of accredit labs in Canada. If you want more info on their standards you can find them in the website.

A list of shops with Z180 have been made by Puffer..the names were volunteered by shops that responded to the request. Customer oriented shops.

For medical questions ask Puffer.I am not a source of info on that.

I know quality management and improvement and that is the direction from which I am agreeing and contributing.

taz22

July 19th, 2003, 03:41 PM

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...
Forum for ideas

I can say that I am not a Doctor or Physic master.

This is why we see 100's of standards for every item you use or buy..because of testing, accidents and quality improvement to avoid those accidents. A dead customer won't buy your product again.

For medical questions ask Puffer.I am not a source of info on that.

Is puffer a doctor and qualified to answer medical questions? If not he might wish to refrain from answering medical questions.

So sneaky and puffer, I have yet to see the two of you sign up for the July 26th OFWF party. Why not come an join us and say your peace directly face to face?

It would give you the opportunity to visit the shops personally and voice your concerns directly to the shop owners. This may pay-off better than hiding behind a computer.

SneakyB'tard

July 19th, 2003, 04:03 PM

Thanks for the invite Taz..I have been wanting to attend but cannot get time off of work.

I don't hide behind a computer...I have talked to all the shops in my area, they are open to ideas, some have shown little or no interest but they were all polite and listened.

It's all based on customer demand, why change if one guy is asking for it and 500 others are not? Or maybe its awareness?

I asked one shop in your area, but when I asked for CSA Z180 air, they responded with "Sorry we aren't nitrox blending yet"

Hmmmm

I just agree with the idea of better quality standards. I get my air filled at many stations, some approved some not. I just would like to see change.

Improvement is good..isn't it?;)

taz22

July 19th, 2003, 05:36 PM

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...
Thanks for the invite Taz..I have been wanting to attend but cannot get time off of work.

Sorry to hear you are unable to make it!

sisterJ

July 19th, 2003, 09:35 PM

SneakyB'tard,

Thanks for the link, I couldn't find DCIEM in Toronto, did I miss it?

sJ

James Pate

July 19th, 2003, 09:50 PM

KeyserSoze once bubbled...
�Our pledge is to offer divers and educators a new alternative- one that is not afraid to take a stand for safety over financial gain and quality over quantity.�
I believe that quote came form your website GUE Guy and Gal

These guys are stating the need to improve quality and safety.....maybe you are on the GUE bandwagon but you don't follow the doctrine at all.

"man's mind once stretched.........." how does that go?

Look on the internet....Deaths all the time due to air contamination in commercial divers......
I have seen many dive shops that have staff that can't tell the time let alone fill a tank properly....I'm saying subscribe to the list...be open look yourself...learn...expand your mind

I see we have found the village idiot. If you had read and understood what the �guy and gal� had posted, you would understand that we are trying to assess whether there is a need for change. We do not see a problem with the OUC or any other testing facility analyzing to the CAN/CAS Z180.1 standard.

The issue is that we want to see the documentation that stipulates only certain accredited facilities may test to the standard. We want to see the documentation that details what an accredited facility is. The Ministry of Labour has been continually mentioned in this thread. If the Ministry is involved then table the regulation, which defines what accredited labs are and what labs are accredited.

Finally, we are not discussing commercial diving, which adheres to a standard other then Z180 in Canada.

SneakyB'tard

July 19th, 2003, 10:17 PM

Could be the DRDC falls under one of the CFAOs or an NDHQ sub group.

DMEE(DIRECTOR OF MARINE AND ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING) is responsible for the administration and funding of the
Divers' Breathing Air Analysis Program. This responsibility
includes the promulgation of:

a. C-87-020-001/NG-001, Special Test Instruction for Divers'
Breathing Air Analysis;

b. Specification D-87-003-000/SG-001, Purity Standards of
Compressed Air and Gases for Divers; and

c. Specification D-87-003-004/SF-001, Cleaning Procedures
for Hyperbaric and Divers' Breathing Gas Piping and
Distribution Systems.

All of these fall under CFAO 43-2 or CFAO 50- 10

Sorry not much help otherwise...not really sure why DCIEM isn't there.

James Pate

July 19th, 2003, 10:21 PM

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...
Forum for ideas

The proof and documentation requested is vast..quality improvement and evolution is a fixture of industry, manufacturing and customer service.

Dude
The proof and documentation that we are requesting is not vast. We have focused our topic. We are only asking for two documents.

My comparison between air stations and retail stores is valid. A product is a product, how we demand and interpret quality of the product is up to the majority of consumers. If the customer wants better quality..the manufacturer had better conform or hit the street.

Once again we are not interested in your comparisons. All we want are the 2 documents.

I understand the DIR GUE point of view and respect and applaud it. If you think I am pointing fingers at your shop or agency...realize that there are 10x more non DIR shops out there running by the seat of their pants than you DIR shops.We are aiming at the fly by nighters.

This is another unjustified statistic. Where are you getting your data from. Please post the source.
I do not think you are pointing fingers at my shop as I do not have one. I do not understand how you are missing me point. We are interested in what makes a test facility accredited. This thread is based on shops using OUC for testing are not Z180 compliant. Please show the documentation that details this.

We are not interested in the hearsay and the conjecture. We have not time for it. we do not really have time for repeating this simple request continually either. We are giving you a week to produce the 2 documents. If you cannot produce them then it will highlight the true nature and quality of the information contained in this thread to date.

safe dives
James

James Pate

July 19th, 2003, 10:31 PM

SneakyBtard,

You also mentioned in an earlier post that diving gas was not analyzed in the event of an accident. Since DCIEM has been brought up:

It is my understanding that DCIEM investigate every scuba death in Canada during which they test all equipment and the gas. Can some else verify this?

Safe dives
James

SneakyB'tard

July 19th, 2003, 11:09 PM

I gave the one link about accreditation already. See the above post.

I know you are frustrated, so am I.

I have already stated what area I am supporting, the quality improvement side. You must at least accept the fact that if there is a lack of complete and absolute standardization of the service, someone will be sub standard, thus providing low quality air.

Do a search on any type of quality management or cost of non conformance report.

What makes anyone think that the Dive industry does not apply to the framework of organizational behavior and its relation to quality deterioration or compacency.

Document 1) http://www.scc.ca/certific/labs.html - Accredited labs Canada

Document 2) Still working on it (maybe the now silent others could assist???) I'm the outfield without the pitcher.

I do agree Soze is a bit off though, good intentions, but off target.

What air standard do Commerical divers adhere to if it isn't the standards covered in the Occupational Health and Safety Act?

KeyserSoze

July 19th, 2003, 11:37 PM

Yup James,

I did reread the post and well......yup I ranted and raved and completely missed the point.

I'm not an idiot though..... try to be nicer eh?

Sorry.....nose out.

I'll just keep bugging Divereh.

Hey.... there's no smilies for "stunned arse"

James Pate

July 20th, 2003, 12:02 AM

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...

What air standard do Commerical divers adhere to if it isn't the standards covered in the Occupational Health and Safety Act?

CAN CSA-Z275.2-92 as opposed to CAN CSA Z180.1

http://www.csa-intl.org/onlinestore/GetCatalogItemDetails.asp?mat=000000000002413268

Dude,
Thanks for the pm. I do appreciate your efforts. Your buddy pufferfish is off diving. I am sure he will wade into this upon his return.
Please keep in mind we are not trying to grind an axe with you. You have asked for our interest and support. This can only be done based on an informed decision.

Thanks again for looking into our second question.

safe dives
James

Tom R

July 20th, 2003, 06:43 AM

SneakyB'tard, Just some research for you

CFAO 50-10 para 14 states that: DND clubs shall forward a sample of compressed air used by the club to DCIEM.

CFAO 50-10 para states: In the event of a fatal accident, all
equipment shall be quarantined and forwarded to DCIEM.

CFAO 50-10 paras 25 & 26 makes reference to: An air sample of any air remaining in the cylinder must be sent for analysis if the incident so dictates

You forgot B-GG-380-000/ FP-002, which mentions DCIEM is that authority

CFAO 43-02 para 34 mentions High state of physical fitness and physical skills. This would be along the same lines of GUE's principles.

You forgot CFAO 34-53 para 7 subpara b: CSA Std CAN3-Z180.1-M85

All these tests are done by DCIEM which actually sets the standard.

Looks like we have to shut down the Military compressors, Military Club Compressors as they do not use an accredited lab either.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/043-02_e.asp

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/050-10_e.asp

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/034-53_e.asp

Just had to look up the CFAO you quoted, it's my job at work. There is also a couple of ammendments that state there will be an updated to the z180.1 standard which I can't find. Circa Oct 2000, message was released in 1999.

Tom R
:out:

SneakyB'tard

July 20th, 2003, 08:03 AM

I agree with you.

But as I stated I do not know if the DND falls under the requirements to meet the SCC ( a civilian agency)

CFAOs applies to members of the Canadian Forces and any activity governed by the DND. Club dives,Adventure training etc.

Unless you get your air and do your dives in a CF Club or are a CF member doing a dive on the job.... those CFAO's don't apply to you.

Jimmy B

July 20th, 2003, 09:00 AM

I'm confused, It's OK for CF Clubs to use unaccredited air also. So exemptions for Dan's and CF Clubs now.

JB

Bubble Boy

July 20th, 2003, 03:37 PM

Jimmy B once bubbled...
I'm confused, It's OK for CF Clubs to use unaccredited air also. So exemptions for Dan's and CF Clubs now.

JB
You guys should stop pulling sneakys pin. You all know better. DCIEM has been renamed Defence R&D Canada and they have been sending their samples to Maxxam and Seatech for quiete some time and therefore the air samples are done by an accredited lab.

Bubble Boy

July 21st, 2003, 02:48 AM

James Pate once bubbled...

The issue is that we want to see the documentation that stipulates only certain accredited facilities may test to the standard.
Hi James, you have very valid questions. CSA Z-180.1-00 specifies the use of an accredited lab. The requirement is in the standard itself.

James Pate once bubbled...

Finally, we are not discussing commercial diving, which adheres to a standard other then Z180 in Canada.
You are correct. CAN/CSA-Z275.2-92 (reaffirmed 1999) is the National Standard of Canada for Occupational Safety Code for Diving Operations.

The OUC has a GC, which is a good thing but to test for what is in the standard they would require a methanizer that they do not have. If you look at any of the "labs" sample cylinders there is a filter media to trap particulate matter and hydrocarbons. The OUC has no such test cylinders. There is no way that you could use their air test results to know that you can conduct any blending of enriched gases.

James Pate

July 21st, 2003, 05:37 AM

Bubble Boy once bubbled...

Hi James, you have very valid questions. CSA Z-180.1-00 specifies the use of an accredited lab. The requirement is in the standard itself.

We are well aware of the requirement being in the standard, (that the use of an accredited lab. )
I cannot understand why you folks are completely missing my request. It is starting to look like aviodance with each passing post.

the request
Please present us with the documentation which details/defines what an accredited lab is.

The OUC has a GC, which is a good thing but to test for what is in the standard they would require a methanizer that they do not have. If you look at any of the "labs" sample cylinders there is a filter media to trap particulate matter and hydrocarbons. The OUC has no such test cylinders. There is no way that you could use their air test results to know that you can conduct any blending of enriched gases.

Would you please explain what a GC is. I appreciate the additional information. We are looking into it.

James

SneakyB'tard

July 21st, 2003, 07:56 AM

Criteria and Procedures for Accreditation

Accreditation Documentation

Program for the Accreditation of Laboratories - Canada (PALCAN)

http://www.scc.ca/publicat/canp/d92_6_e.pdf

This link will answer your request.

PALCAN Handbook�- D92.6
December 2001
iv
What is �Accreditation�?
The accreditation of a laboratory within the PALCAN program is a formal agreement
between the Standards Council of Canada and the accredited laboratory. This agreement
covers three specific aspects:
a. The Standards Council of Canada formally recognises the ability of the laboratory
to produce competent results for the specific tests or calibrations that are listed on
its Scope of Accreditation. A list of accredited laboratories and their scopes of
accreditation is available to the public on SCC web site at http://www.scc.ca.
Accredited laboratories are deemed to have all of the following in order to
produce competent results:
(i) Technically competent staff with the requisite skills and knowledge;
(ii) The environment with the requisite facilities and equipment;
(iii) The requisite procedures, and
(iv) The requisite quality control.
b. The Standards Council of Canada formally recognises the establishment and
maintenance of a quality system in the accredited laboratory which conforms to
CAN-P-4D (ISO/IEC 17025) General requirements for the competence of testing
and calibration laboratories. In accordance with Clause 2 of ILAC �Guidance
for Accreditation to ISO/IEC 17025�, the Standards Council of Canada also
formally recognises that the accredited laboratory�s quality management system
meets the requirements of ISO 9001:1994 and ISO 9002:1994 under the following
conditions:
(i) ISO 9001:1994, when the laboratory engages in the design/development of
new methods and/or develops test programmes combining standard and
non-standard test and calibration methods; and
(ii) ISO 9002:1994, when the laboratory only uses standard methods.
c. The accredited laboratory formally agrees to comply with the specific program
requirements set out in this PALCAN Handbook and agrees to pay all fees
associated with accreditation.

What is an �Accreditable Laboratory�?

In addition to meeting the SCC requirements (CAN-P-4) and conditions in the PALCAN
Handbook (D92.6), an applicant that is an Accreditable Laboratory must have the
following salient standard features:
PALCAN HANDBOOK D92.6
� Located at a single site;
� Management by a suitably qualified professional authorised to approve and
sign its test reports or calibration certificates;
� A scope of testing or measurement capabilities, that can be satisfactorily
assessed by an agreed maximum number of four technical assessors, a Task
Group Laboratory member if necessary, and a team leader;
� Legal identifiability per clause 4.1.1 of CAN-P-4; as fully explained in the text
below, this means that the SCC accreditation covers a distinct corporate entity
and is limited to that entity within clear and distinguishable corporate
boundaries; and
� Where the laboratory conducts testing and/or measurements in more than one
product area or operates in different fields of testing or measurement, it must
be subject to one quality management system.
Disclaimer
Accreditation under CAN-P-4 is a demonstration of confidence in the laboratory�s
technical competence. It is not an assurance. It does not imply the acceptance by the SCC
of any responsibility toward any person or organisation for the effects of the services
provided by an accredited laboratory.

Dan MacKay

July 21st, 2003, 05:03 PM

Man, oh man. Sneaky and Puffer you sure can play dodge ball with professional ease. I can see what SisterJ's frustration is in trying to reason with you two.

Lets see if we can clarify a couple of things and award some scores.

1. CFAO's cover the military not civilians - Jimmy B out CFAO's them hands down - 1 pt.

2. Mininstry of labor covers commercial diving not recreational. Beat to death - 1 pt SisterJ.

3. Puffer and Sneaky have only a few stations in Ontario where they can get air. Thats good it leaves more for us. Sneaky and Puffer 1 pt.

Lets make is real simple. Most of science uses statisical analysis. Now for those of you who are not familiar with statistics when we state a hypothesis we state the general and then look for a counter example to disprove it. In this case we would state "That all the air in Ontario being pumped by dive shops conform to the Z180-1 00 standard". Then we would go about disproving that. Not easy to do when you think about is. Not being tested does not mean that is does not conform. Of course the test confirms or denys.

So if we apply this to OUC testing I would state "the air testing that the OUC conducts is to the Z180-1 00 standard and their testing is valid". I challenge Puffer and Sneaky to find the counter example. So me one documented case of an OUC tested sample that has failed to meet the Z180-1 00 standard or leave get out of Dodge. No should of's, or I think's, or I feel's. As Sister J said don't hold back here, roll out the reams of documentation of a failed OUC test. Simple question, simple problem.

As well I would like to have one, just one, documented case of a fatality caused by bad air here in good ol'e Ontario rather than your useless diatribe on well it could da been ya know but the air wasn't tested or this or that. The fact of the matter is there is not one case of a recreational diver dying due to bad air, end of story.

You folks are sure long on verbosity but sadly lacking in facts. To recap:

Give me one example of a failed OUC test and on death due to bad air. Oh can't? I am not surprised.

SneakyB'tard

July 21st, 2003, 05:32 PM

I do believe I produced the documents and information requested by James Pate.

Tom R quoted the CFAOs but simply re iterated the point I made...or is Jimmy actually Tom R..or is Tom R Jimmy and the Tick???

What if you had a family member dead due to someone's elses mistake?
Maybe some of us have motive to implement change,
When 8 year old children are now breathing this air...wouldn't you
want the absolute best?

SneakyB'tard

July 21st, 2003, 06:27 PM

Just swam back from the deep end.
Sorry for being short Tick, Tom and Jimmy

Fin

James Pate

July 21st, 2003, 06:35 PM

Sneaky,
Thanks for the document on accreditation. It is appreciated. I am in the process of reviewing the material. I have contacted a number of people in Ottawa and in the States regarding this matter. I am waiting to contact the OUC.

For your information, the tick is neither JimmyB nor TomR. You have to appreciate where he is coming from. It would have been easier to pull teeth then it has been to get any documentation regarding this thread.

Also the last post from Bubble Boy states that the OUC cannot test for Hydrocarbons and Methane: And yet all the current OUC certificates that we have viewed show measurements for both Hydrocarbons and Methane. This represents a keen discrepancy to us that merits further investigation.

Once again, Sneaky thank you for searching out the documents that we requested. It is noticeable that you have been quite forthcoming with the information. It is also noticeable that Pufferfish and Bubble Boy have not rendered any assistance as of yet. This is mute point but it has not gone unnoticed. It just highlights the fact that there has been little or no investigation done with the appropriate documentation until now.

In parting, can anyone detail the difference between the CAN/CAS Z180.1 (1985) and the CAN/CAS Z180.1 (2000)?

Safe dives
James

James Pate

July 21st, 2003, 06:47 PM

Tick,
Do you have a copy of the Z180.1 standard or do I need to pick one up before we get together this Friday.
Cheers
James

Bubble Boy

July 21st, 2003, 08:14 PM

James Pate once bubbled...

In parting, can anyone detail the difference between the CAN/CAS Z180.1 (1985) and the CAN/CAS Z180.1 (2000)?

Safe dives
James
2000 requires accredited lab testing and 1985 does not. 2000 does not require testing for SO2 and NO2. For not having the standards you guys are sure arguementative. Also I did not state that the OUC could not test for Methane. I stated they did not have a methanizer to use with their GC which means invalid CO and CO2 readings.

Two parting words: due diligence

James Pate

July 21st, 2003, 08:51 PM

Due diligence would be in you imparting with the information in a clear and concise manner when we asked for it. Each time we post a request, you resort to mud slinging. Why the resistance to our choosing to look into what you are saying? Just let us research the issue. You help would be appreciated, but you continued resistance to our efforts speaks louder then words. You still have not educated me in what a GC is. You are also quick to drop your hydrocarbon statement from this morning. As I stated earlier we are reviewing the material. We will now check into accuracy of OUC�s Co and Co2 readings.

We asked for your co-operation with our research on Friday. You have yet to provide any support. We cannot think of a legitimate reason why you would withhold information. It makes no sense at all.

Tom R

July 21st, 2003, 09:47 PM

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...

When 8 year old children are now breathing this air...wouldn't you
want the absolute best?

8 years olds should be driving bikes, skipping, reading, watching tv, doing kids stuff. So lets not bring this into the discussion.

Tom

James Pate

July 21st, 2003, 10:18 PM

It is alright Bubble Boy dude. I figured it out .....

GC = Gas Chromatograph

Thanks for the input.

Also for the rest of you folks that may not know what a methalizer is or does...

The Methanizer option enables the Flame Ionization Detector to detect low levels of CO and CO2. It is installed as the removable jet in a special FID detector assembly. The Methanizer is packed with a nickel catalyst powder. During analysis, the Methanizer is heated to 380oC with the FID detector body. When the column efluent mixes with the FID hydrogen supply and passes through the Methanizer, CO and CO2 are converted to methane. Since the conversion of CO and CO2 to methane occurs after the sample compounds have passed through the column, their retention times are unchanged.

http://www.srigc.com/2003catalog/cat-71.htm

We will continue to post critical information and details as we find it.

safe dives
James

pufferfish

July 21st, 2003, 11:20 PM

Well we had a great weekend up in Toby. It is so nice to walk into one of Ontario's three dive tourist areas and get dry fills and see all the air stations accredited. One doesn't have to feel like a criminal slinking around the shop looking for that hidden or non-existent air certification. Both shops have them on the wall displayed proudly knowing the air meets a recognized standard for Canada. Lets hope the other two diver tourist areas, Brockville and Kingston follow Toby's lead.

James my boy for only having a dozen or so posts on this board you need to take a step back and read those posts. The content is good but the tone is not exactly warm and fuzzy especially for someone asking for favours. You have called someone a "village idiot" for no good reason, and you continue to produce statements like, "I cannot understand why you folks are completely missing my request,...Please present us with the documentation,...please cut the crap" Listen there bud we have no obligation to provide you with squat with language like that. Or how about "We have no time for it. We do not really have time for repeating this simple request continually either." Boy the only people who get information from me with that kind of tone are my four year old nephews.

A little bit of patience, humility, and gratitude might go a long way in helping us decide why we should just spoonfeed you with what you are looking for. I know it is not in the DIR fundamentals book so is that why all the demands with no thanks. Could it be that the DIR boys in Kingston have been exposed for having a huge potential point of failure called OUC air?? You know part of being human is just being able to say we have have our faults and can't be perfect all the time. I am sure you are an excellent diver with all those GUE certs but you know what if you want to attract others to your club you need ambassadors who show patience, tolerance, and a curiosity for the truth not rules, regulations, and dogma.

You know if you read the beginning of this thread two months ago I was where you are now, wondering about that blind spot in risk called diver air. I started asking questions on the board and people came forward and helped me out. Yes things at times were heated with Seahunter but pretty much civil most of the time. No one demanded to produce this document, etc. Instead of expecting to be spoonfed I spoke with people at Trace Analytics, Seatech, Maxxam, Cantest, US Navy, Duke University, Florida State U, Wayne State U, Fill Express, Lawrence Factor, TRI Environmental, Padi Canada, and may others. As my knowledge base on this subject increased I was able to assess the current state of air quality in Ontario and it is not a pretty site. Huge gaping holes in monitoring and compliance and safety. You will come to the same conclusion if you do your homework properly. People on the board including myself will help you discover the 'truth' and you will see that what we have been saying while not in a concise ready to read document is in fact the truth. I will be willing to wager a DIR-F book on that. :D

You ask to produce 'data' to back up every statement we make. Have you ever considered that some of the people on this board may actually be experts in some of these areas. Sneaky does a lot of this quality control stuff for a living and is well versed in these areas and has provided you with what you were looking for within 48 hours and yet ?SisterJ calls him a "Sneakybastard" when he is only trying to help you out. Again do you not see there might be a bit of reluctance to just offer up our knowledge on a plater with that kind of reception?

Ok lets get to some of your questions. As for data to back up my 10% quote lets just say I have compiled a long list from pounding the pavement and from people on the board PMing me about what certficates and compressor info shops have. I standby my statement that less than ten percent of Ontario fill stations are meeting MOL standards for shops with employees. How about this piece of 'data' just to keep you interested. The shop where you get your fills in Kingston is a five star padi shop so it should have quarterly analyses on file. Let me see OUC certs done three times a year, used military compressor, intake inch and a half eight feet tall, filters hand packed. How is that for some hard data on which I have based my stats? :)

Now what else did you want to know there James? If you go back to my first post to Sista's question I asked you to have a look at Seatech's compressed gas page www.seatech.ns.ca where on the compressed breathing report you can read for free the CSA Z180.1-00 standard. Now go and get your OUC certicate and compare the two. What do you notice? There is no 'volatile non-methane hydrocarbons or volatile halogenated hydro carbons on the OUC cert which is part of the new Z180.1 standard as is using an accredited lab. Had you done this in the first place you would have seen this. You can get a copy of the CSA Z180.1-00 requirements but it will cost you about $55 here.

CSA Z180.1-00 (http://www.csa-intl.org/onlinestore/GetCatalogDrillDown.asp?Parent=2893)

Now Bubble Boy kindly pointed out to you that the OUC bottle does not contain a filter and so cannot access the particulates and condensed hydrocarbons (aka oil in your fill). There is a lot of recent medical info indicating particulates less than 10 microns are particulary bad even at 1 atm. As part of your homework you will have to familiarize yourself with ANDI, IANTD, CSA, and CGA Gd E standards as they all allow different amounts of this parameter both in quantity and particle size. This is where the term oxygen compatible air (OCA) comes into play and is especially important when breathing mixed gases at depth. A mixed gas diver should know all the ins and outs of OCA air. Try Mark at www.fillexpress for info on this.

Here is a link to familiarize yourself about what the OUC doesn't do. And if they do claim they do then ask them about their orifice size.
oil and particulate analysis (http://www.airanalysis.com/Is%20air%20analysis%20necessary.htm)
Go to the link on oil and particulate analyisis to see what the OUC is not doing. Also take note at the bottom about PADI requirements for quarterly testing and by an accredited lab (A2LA) in the state of Florida.

Ok what else?
GC that is a piece of equipment for doing gas analysis called gas chromatograph. Another question you should ask the OUC when you call them is for a copy of their Scope of Analysis. Paul Fewer at Seatech has a great site so I will point you to his scope but all accredited labs have one.
Seatech Scope of Analysis (http://www.scc.ca/scopes/reg145-eng-s.pdf)

Notice it states the standard the scope is for and then for each parameter under the scope is listed the equipment used for the test. GC is gas chromatograph. Please ask OUC to produce this scope also showing the gravimetric filter for oil and particulates.
As we pointed out to you there are only three labs in the country who have the scope for the Z180.1-00. But don't take my word for it start phoning for the answers.

Bubble Boy pointed out DCIEM does not do testing but send their samples to Maxxam and Seatech. They may test the air in a diving fatality if requested to do so, but the test is actually done by you know who one of those accredited labs.

As for CO analysis in a diver's death yes it can be done on the blood but is time dependent. The half life of COHb is about five hours so after a day or so most will be gone. The problem has not been the technical aspects of testing, but not having the test done period in a fatality. If the air isn't checked in a death then one cannot say anything about the incidence of bad air in Ontario. Remember DAN data shows 40% of deaths are initial event 'unknown'. As I also pointed out earlier most jurisdictions do NOT routinely check the diver's air in the case of a fatality. That should be another message to get out to people,...it should always be checked. Families should demand it.

You ask about a methanizer. This is a piece of lab equipment added to the GC in order to allow reliable (check out nitrox thread re definition of reliable testing=accurate and precise) CO and CO2 readings in the lower range of concentrations exactly where the diver especially the mixed gas deep diver is most interested. The OUC has no way of producing reliable CO and CO2 measurements at the lower end without a methanizer. Your OUC certificate that says CO < 5ppm may actually be 25 ppm, you don't know and never will as no one checks on their quality of analysis or accuracy and precision. You get a fill thinking clean air and instead there is 25 ppm CO at 1 atm. Then you take that to 7 atm and you have an effective concentration of 175 ppm CO which will may kill an older guy with some occult heart disease but a 'young and bold' mixed gas pilot may get off only with a bad hangover. We won't even discuss here the synergisms that exist between CO, NO2, and likely SO2 which by the way were dropped off the 2000 CSA standard. And guess what, CO2 also for which the OUC can't provide reliable analyses in the lower end concentrations for the same reasons, potentiates CO toxicity. Proof, consider this from Dr. Penney the world's expert on CO toxicity
CO/Co2 synergisms (http://www.coheadquarters.com/figco29x.htm)

I can't remember which one from the DIR possy asked for proof about the OUC. I think from the info you have so far you will come to the same conclusion that we did however you could send in a bottle of air to the OUC from your fill station with a known concentration of CO contaminant and the same gas to an accredited lab. You can buy bottles of CO from safety supply stores of varying concentrations. They are used to calibrate Co detectors.
This would cost you a few bucks but the results might be surprising. Or you could say why bother just switch to an accredited lab as this is what the accreditation procedure ensures, accurate and precise results. But James if you really want to know that is the experiment to do.

So as Bubbleboy said due diligence is the message here. I did mine two months ago and you at your shop are just beginning but I can assure you the conclusion will be the same and if it is I want one of those DIR Fundamentals books :D
We do not want to withhold anything from you but a little softer tone in requesting that hard to comeby and confusing info would go a long way.

For the bonus question James have a look at the efficiency of activated charcoal and what it does and doesn't adsorb. You might be surprised at what you find and if you are real nice I will give you the link.

And now James a request of you. I would be very interested in seeing what GUE has to say with regards to their 'air' standard. Do they have a policy on this and could you please show us a link to this. For the agency that says it has thought through all potential 'points of failure' this GUE standard would be most interesting to compare with the other OCA standards from IANTD and ANDI. No rush and thanks in advance.

At your service boys bring on the questions,
Puffer

P.S. JimmyB and TomR can you pick one identity and stick with that as I am getting headache switching back and forth. :mean:

Tom R

July 22nd, 2003, 06:22 AM

James Pate

July 22nd, 2003, 06:51 AM

Pufferfish,

Thank you for posting the details regarding air quality testing. It gives me something concrete to work with. I have also been doing some foot of my own. I have been in contact with the Proficiency Testing Manager at CAEAL.ca and have calls into A2LA and SCC. But the information you have posted will save a lot of time.

As posted earlier, we are interested in what you are saying but we need to research the issue in order to make an informed decision. We came to you folks in a constructive manner and asked that you present your critical details/documentation that would support what your stance. All we received in return was more of the same personal opinions that were already present throughout the thread. I got involved when you did not answer any of the questions put to you regarding this topic. You just repeated what you had posted previously. If we had found the answers we are looking for in the earlier posts we would not have asked the questions.

Also, you cannot fault sJ for the typo of SneakyB�tard and I do believe I have thanked sneaky for his help. As far as my village idiot comment goes, it was merited. Soze admitted the same. Yes I could have shown a little patience but my patience is running pretty thin. I have had 3 years of people poking at my training. It is just natural to poke back. I will also continue to call crap when I see it. Even in this last posting of yours at least 3 of the paragraphs fall into the crap category. I will always call a spade a spade. When you want to discuss the critical nature of air qualitiy testing it should not be based on emotional pleas and what if�s. In order to keep the issue clear you have to stay focused on the documentation.

As much as you may not care for my tone. I do not care much for your tone and defensive posturing either. The only consistency you folks have shown is to start mud slinging each time someone post a question or offers a difference of opinion until proving otherwise. As I stated in an earlier post: In order for us to support your position we have to make an informed decision based on critical documentation. I am not sure how you interpret that statement but it means we are looking to support you. In order to make a critical decision we have to look at what you have and what the OUC does and compare this to accredited testing. Hence, critically evaluate the evidence. We will not act blindly.

I did consider that some people on this board might actually be experts in some of the fields regarding air quality testing and standards. That is why I asked for your documentation instead of wasting 2 more months attempting to reinvent the wheel; hence my surprise and frustration when the information was not forthcoming. If you have such a solid case you should not hesitate to bring it to the table. It makes no sense to hide the details, especially when you have people approaching you to offer support.

In parting, you can buy your own DIR-F book.

Safe dives
james

Bubble Boy

July 22nd, 2003, 08:09 AM

James Pate once bubbled...

Well then they are fools.

James Pate once bubbled...
[B.
You are also quick to drop your hydrocarbon statement from this morning.

Please re-read it. I did not drop the hydrocarbon statement.

James Pate

July 22nd, 2003, 08:20 AM

My mistake about the hydrocarbons, I understand what you mean now that Pufferfish has posted some details. It would not of been misunderstood had you been able to provide a little more detail at the time of your posting.

Safe dives
James

Dan MacKay

July 22nd, 2003, 08:50 AM

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...
I do believe I produced the documents and information requested by James Pate.

Tom R quoted the CFAOs but simply re iterated the point I made...or is Jimmy actually Tom R..or is Tom R Jimmy and the Tick???

What if you had a family member dead due to someone's elses mistake?
Maybe some of us have motive to implement change,
When 8 year old children are now breathing this air...wouldn't you
want the absolute best?

Hi Sneaky et Al,

Once again the questions has been dodged. Show me one example of where an OUC test has failed or one documented case of death due to bad air.

Just to enlighten a bit on the CO2 problem. Testing the victim for CO2 in the event of a death proves nothing. As a rather eggrecious by product of our metabolism we create CO2. Normal levels of CO2 are not exacerbated by trace levels in SCUBA cylinders. What does send us down the slippery slope is being overweight, out of shape, uncomfortable, poor equipment, ...etc need I go on. By far I would think that most unexplained deaths are caused by this mechanism but it what the diver has done (or not done) that put them at risk not what is in their tank. I have to admit that I have no evidence whatsoever to support this but at least I am willing to admit that.

If there are any engineers out there they will recognize the credo that sometimes good enough is good enough. Once again I reiterate show me the stats.

If you wish the comercial industry to overtake the recreational world and goverment (MOL) intervention to start legislation standards and rules then the recreational industry will die overnight. Does anyone here see the need to have a tender, safety divers and a chamber on site to do a dive? Well the MOL certainly does. Be careful for what you ask for.

Good to see you back from that breath hold dive from the deep end Sneaky.

Jimmy B

July 22nd, 2003, 09:08 AM

Puffer Fish,

Here�s another possible solution.

For the OUC to meet the accreditation standard, I believe it is a money thing.
The costs vary from 3000.00 yearly to 5000.00 every 2 years. They are the voice for divers in Ontario, so lets support them. Lobby all the dive shops for this and have them prepare to pay for the extra testing. Sounds good so far. To pay for this extra testing have all divers pay 10.00 for a fill. Two reasons here, One; they�re now guaranteed to receive grade a 100% accredited air by the current standard as requested. Two; Offset the costs of the extra testing.

cat

July 22nd, 2003, 10:03 AM

(I can't believe I'm still reading this thread but here goes.)

Why does this thread keep coming back to the argument on *which* standard is acceptable (or legislated) when it's clear from examples given that the main problem is that a number of stores aren't getting air tested AT ALL.

What's the priority here? Convincing the stores that are currently testing to the US standard into switching to the Ontario standard *ought* to be coming in a distant second to pressuring the stores that don't test at all should be first. Shouldn't it? Fix the big problem first, then work on the lesser one.

I don't agree with The Tick on the need for a documented death from bad air (any volunteers? didn't think so) - the higher standard may be designed to protect divers from chronic, low-level exposures to hydrocarbons, etc. Waiting until the epidemiological study is in (assuming one is even possible) before tightening the standards isn't terribly ethical. The standards are likely based on toxicological information from unpressurized air exposures and were probably derived seperately for each component, with a hefty "safety" factor thrown in. That's how it usually works, especially for human health standards, where even one statistically probable death or injury may be considered unacceptable (would be nice to know where the numbers came from, though).

It *would* be useful to find out how many of the samples that fail to meet the Ontario standard did meet the US standard as this would show whether air that is meets the US standard is also likely to meet the Ontario standard. This is analogous to testing water for coliforms - no fecal coliform bacteria usually means no Giardia, Cryptosporidium or Hepatitis - all come from the same source)
I don't know if information on failed samples is available.

I'm going to commit the crime of putting a second analogy into this post (I do water quality, not air and it shows). Please think about this:
Most bottled water is not tested to the same high standards required of tap water (especially big-city tap water) but it is tested. Some of you appear to be arguing over bottled versus tap when there are people out there drinking completely untested water that might be contaminated with sewage.

BTW - any thoughts on what to do about the uncompressed air in SW Ontario? Got so bad I had to move...

Ok, JMO, etc. etc. Cat (chemist, biologist, toxicologist and breather of both compressed and uncompressed air)

PS: I do agree with those posters who are saying that it's hard to find the information and documentation in this thread - and that's as someone who knows what to look for, too. Any chance of putting it all together in one post with minimal verbiage diluting it? Thanks. (Hypocritical of me - this is a long post)

JimmyB: a cost per fill increase to pay for testing wouldn't be anywhere near that much - unless I'm doing the math incorrectly or the store doesn't do many fills ($0.50 surcharge/tank X 20 weeks/season X 100 fills/week gives a store an extra $1000 to pay for testing). You've made some good points - please don't ruin it for me by exaggerating the costs here.

Umm, how many divers in the province? Cost of accreditation for the OUC would work out to less than a dollar per diver - likely considerably less.

UpperCanDiver

July 22nd, 2003, 10:51 AM

Take the fundementals course Puffer and I'll give you that book as a bonus, saves you from betting. I believe that there is a spot available in Aug, it's right down your alley, higher standards that's what it's about.

In parting, you can buy your own DIR-F book.

I hate this thread. But...
Shame on you two!
You are pushy for answers from the others, yet when the tables turn and you both are asked a question you answer like the above????

I think the DIR community, would like some good, thoughtful representation here..you guys are the A Team...show them the stuff they want!

Tom R

July 22nd, 2003, 11:33 AM

I think the point that is being hashed out is why is the OUC not good enough as it was the standard for the last X amount of years, then all of a sudden just not good enough.

It was suggested that first get the compressors testing, then raise the bar -- not good enough.

So we're back to square 4 but getting educated and I will say this publicly quite well by Puffer and Bubble.

There must be a reason why this was brought out in the first place. No answer.

I actually still reading puffers links. A couple of phone calls I have made have yet to be returned.

Pufffer were you on the testing dives conducted in Toby this weekend?

KeyserSoze

July 22nd, 2003, 12:50 PM

A quote I though applicable to the DIR ideology of instruction and information seen thus far......

"The most striking success of a revolution based on a philosophy of life will always have been achieved when the new philosophy of life as far as possible has been taught to all men..."

vlada

July 22nd, 2003, 01:57 PM

but i felt it had to be addressed

A quote I though applicable to the DIR ideology of instruction and information seen thus far......

Keyser, you obviously did not have any exposure to real GUE and its instructors, and have no idea what DIR ideology is about

If you did, i highly doubt that you would have thought that Hitler's statement from the Main Kampf that you sited above was appropriate

Vlada

KeyserSoze

July 22nd, 2003, 02:26 PM

I have the GUE website on my shortcuts. I like its ideas and support its exploration of not only new sites but new concepts and ideas. I sent money in and became a member a couple years ago simply to support GUE- Not to become part of an "elite diving force" I am confident in myself without that.

They enhance the sport by contributing these and other things to the divers.

Though the quote was from a crackpot it doesn't mean it isn't valid.

What is with the constant assumption that everyone is attacking you?

Jimmy B

July 22nd, 2003, 02:38 PM

KeyserSoze once bubbled...
A quote I though applicable to the DIR ideology of instruction and information seen thus far......

First of all we are not discussing DIR here, lots of other threads and discussions on the subject. Feel free to join one of them. Just a note if your reading the threads fully and know anyone involved here, most people are just trying to get the full information, it�s just being extracted the long way. The only one that found him insulted was you when someone asked you about your present employment, then someone sticks up for you and presto you prove the first guy right.

UpperCanDiver

July 22nd, 2003, 03:27 PM

I really enjoyed the movie Usual Suspects.....stop posting....You are ruining it for me!

James Pate

July 22nd, 2003, 08:06 PM

pufferfish once bubbled...

Ok lets get to some of your questions. As for data to back up my 10% quote lets just say I have compiled a long list from pounding the pavement and from people on the board PMing me about what certficates and compressor info shops have. I standby my statement that less than ten percent of Ontario fill stations are meeting MOL standards for shops with employees. How about this piece of 'data' just to keep you interested. The shop where you get your fills in Kingston is a five star padi shop so it should have quarterly analyses on file. Let me see OUC certs done three times a year, used military compressor, intake inch and a half eight feet tall, filters hand packed. How is that for some hard data on which I have based my stats? :)

Puffer,
If the shop you are referring to is northern tech diver then you are way off the mark once again. The shop does no have a used compressor. Although I am not sure of the intake pipes diameter, It is definitely not 8 feet high. The filters have never been hand pack. They use replaceable cartridges and always have from the start. I believe there are also two charcoal filters in the stack, but if you want the actual specs al you have to do is ask Dan. The compressor is his baby. I am not sure where you got the 3 certs-a-year from. When that system first went in the gas was tested every month and one month it was tested twice. I maybe wrong but you also need to check the 5 star Padi rating as well. They might just be a Padi store.

So how about your piece of data that has kept me interested? It is erroneous, misleading and defamatory in its intent. This goes back to my first post. You cannot justify your long list as quantifiable data. It is inaccurate at best. Therefore you 10% does not met the acid test. This thread is riddled with these innuendos of yours. You discredit yourself each time you post one.

Now I will return the question for you to answer yourself. How is that for some hard data on which you have based your stats?

This brings me to your sneaking around on your secret mission. If you had of been straight with the boys at NTD when you wanted information regarding the air station; you would presently have accurate data of NTD and to think all you had to do was ask. Personally, I have been to 3 shops since Friday and asked for their current certification. Each was able to produce a current Z180 cert from OUC. One of the stores in the west end of T.O. was kind enough to gave me a photocopy for me file. There is really no need for the drama.

The answer to your OCA question is that there is no need to put out standards that are covered by common sense

James

James Pate

July 22nd, 2003, 08:07 PM

Now for rule 1

pufferfish

July 22nd, 2003, 10:57 PM

cat once bubbled...
(I can't believe I'm still reading this thread but here goes.)

Why does this thread keep coming back to the argument on *which* standard is acceptable (or legislated) when it's clear from examples given that the main problem is that a number of stores aren't getting air tested AT ALL.

What's the priority here? Convincing the stores that are currently testing to the US standard into switching to the Ontario standard *ought* to be coming in a distant second to pressuring the stores that don't test at all should be first. Shouldn't it? Fix the big problem first, then work on the lesser one.

Cat I knew you being a water scientist that questions about air quality and lab testing would keep you hooked ;)

You mentioned this same valid concern in mid-June and I replied to this on June 19th. I will post the same reply for the benefit of the late comers here.

"I can assure the readers of this thread though that the worst case offenders (no testing for over a year) are being brought to task behind the scenes. Just remember that this takes time to write letters, call various people to get the facts (like Ruby Ochoa at Trace Analytics), and follow up on these findings. A lot of this is done on people's spare time after their day jobs. Please be patient and change will happen,.."

Other scubaboarders mentioned shops with no certifications and I had personally been in seven with no certs for over a year (five of them with no test for over three years).Letters have gone off to the respective agencies and three of the seven have nice new certs. Actually two of those did not require letters just a civil conversation as to why they should be testing. The shops complied voluntarily.

One of the reasons JamesP is finding fresh certifications in Metro is 'we' have been around eight weeks ago discussing this subject with the shops and so new certs have begun showing up. Of course James did not consider this but had he looked at the dates on those certs they are likely from after this thread began. I agree a recent OUC cert is better than none but it still falls very short of what the MOL requires. So yes in our spare time we are 'walking the talk' not just 'talking the walk'.

You ask for a concise post regarding what the air testing requirements are in Ontario.

Assuming the shop has employees which the majority do then for their employees they must have their air analysed by a Canadian accredited lab to CSA Z180.1 twice a year.

For the other two tests required say if PADI or NAUI requires quarterly testing then one can use Trace, OUC, Maxxam whomever. In an ideal world the standard would be quarterly testing by an accredited lab like they have in Florida which was instituted after the noticed a higher than national average diver fatality and injury rate.

I don't know what is so complicated about that. Two tests separated by six months and done by one of the three Canadian accredited labs. Plain and simple.
Cost: $500/yr
Diver peace of mind: Priceless

pufferfish

July 22nd, 2003, 11:51 PM

Jimmy B once bubbled...
Puffer Fish,

Here�s another possible solution.

For the OUC to meet the accreditation standard, I believe it is a money thing.
The costs vary from 3000.00 yearly to 5000.00 every 2 years. They are the voice for divers in Ontario, so lets support them. Lobby all the dive shops for this and have them prepare to pay for the extra testing. Sounds good so far. To pay for this extra testing have all divers pay 10.00 for a fill. Two reasons here, One; they�re now guaranteed to receive grade a 100% accredited air by the current standard as requested. Two; Offset the costs of the extra testing.

JB as I said to you (or was that Tom R) on the Nitrox thread the OUC should not be in the business of testing Ontario divers' air period. I am all for having a voice for Ontario divers to represent the various parties like shops, charters, instructors, students,etc. when the need arises and to organize things like diver forums. There is a conflict of interest though when the same agency you pay membership dues to is also going to test the fill stations air. They might not even install a methanizer as they know that the bulk of fill station failures for air in the US is for low concentration CO and CO2. We wouldn't want to have to fail some of our members who pay part of our salaries through air testing program now would we. If a large percentage of the OUC's budget comes from substandard air testing rather than from memberships derived from providing us the diver or shop owner with a useful organization then the OUC is going to disappear.

As far as getting them accredited it would be a huge financial undertaking and basically air testing should not be part of their mandate. One does not just buy a GC and stick it in a trailor and then pay the fee to the Standard Council of Canada and call themselves an accredited lab. They have obviously convinced many fill station owners and divers they are legit but closer analysis reveals the OUC is a very weak link in the chain of diver air safety. And this is from the very organization who should be looking out for diver safety.

Please go back and read what Sneaky posted on page 14 July 21 about Criteria and Procedures for Accreditation.
The OUC does NOT have:

i) "Technically competent staff with the requisite skills and knowledge" This means people with credentials as chemists or analytical technicians not OUC board members who want a gig testing air.

ii) "The environment with the requisite facilities and equipment"
The OUC has a GC in a facility that has never been checked by any standards association. This would be like you purchasing a GC and sticking it in your garage and then claiming to offer reliable testing when in fact you don't as there is no methanizer or proper method to measure particulates and hydrocarbons.

iii) "The requisite procedures" Please ask them now they measure particulates.

iv) "The requisite quality control" This means having checks in place to ensure accuracy and precision or results and an external independent body who verfies this QC is being done correctly and at the right frequency.

So here is a list of questions to ask the OUC if you can get a hold of them.

1. Are you accredited by the Standard Council of Canada?
2. Can you provide me with a Scope of Accreditation issued by the SCC?
3. Are you testing to the CSA Z180.1 2000 standard?
4. Do your staff have any credentials in analytical chemistry?
5. Do you participate in any external monitoring program to ensure the results are reliable (accurate and precise).
6. Do you meet the requirements of ISO 9002:1994?
7. Do you have a methanizer on your GC to ensure the reliability of low concentrations of CO or CO2.

To anyone who has any lingering doubts about the quality of OUC testing I would encourage them to call the OUC and ask these questions. You should get back seven answers of No, No,No,....

And why do we want to continue to use the OUC? It is not possible to make the OUC accredited for a few grand nor is it in the Ontario diver's interest to do so.

pufferfish

July 23rd, 2003, 12:30 AM

Tom R once bubbled...
I think the point that is being hashed out is why is the OUC not good enough as it was the standard for the last X amount of years, then all of a sudden just not good enough.

It was suggested that first get the compressors testing, then raise the bar -- not good enough.

So we're back to square 4 but getting educated and I will say this publicly quite well by Puffer and Bubble.

There must be a reason why this was brought out in the first place. No answer.

I actually still reading puffers links. A couple of phone calls I have made have yet to be returned.

Pufffer were you on the testing dives conducted in Toby this weekend?

Tom pumping water through lead pipes was also the standard for many years until we found out lead wasn't so good for childrens' growing brains. We also used asbestos as an insulator until we found out it caused lung cancer. In Ontario we even cut back on the frequency of drinking water testing, had no requirements on those who did the sampling, and farmed the testing out to labs which didn't have the same quality control as the old public lab and guess what we got Walkerton.

The issues surrounding the testing of diver air and the quality of that testing are much the same. OUC is inferior testing for the many reasons cited above. The continued use of the OUC given its inferior technology and lack of standards then becomes a public health issue for the diver, especially so for the ones mixing this air with other gases to use at high ambient pressures.

Technology and labratory standards have evolved far beyond what the OUC can offer at this point in time. Possibly in the past they offered a service that was not available but closer inspection now reveals they have fallen so far behind the curve it is time to board the GC trailor up and switch to good independent accredited testing.

Thanks by the way for the offer of the free book if I take one of those DIR-F courses. I have read many of the posts from folks who don't have the intention of moving into the tech realm, but who said the course greatly improved their skills. Anything that can improve diver skill or air quality is raising the bar for diver safey and this is a step forward.

Nope I wasn't on the testing dives but was first down on the Niagara II and coming back up the line before all those guys with two tanks, seven foot hoses, and black masks invaded our space:D

pufferfish

July 23rd, 2003, 01:22 AM

James Pate once bubbled...

Puffer,
If the shop you are referring to is northern tech diver then you are way off the mark once again. The shop does no have a used compressor. Although I am not sure of the intake pipes diameter, It is definitely not 8 feet high. The filters have never been hand pack. They use replaceable cartridges and always have from the start. I believe there are also two charcoal filters in the stack, but if you want the actual specs al you have to do is ask Dan. The compressor is his baby. I am not sure where you got the 3 certs-a-year from. When that system first went in the gas was tested every month and one month it was tested twice. I maybe wrong but you also need to check the 5 star Padi rating as well. They might just be a Padi store.

So how about your piece of data that has kept me interested? It is erroneous, misleading and defamatory in its intent. This goes back to my first post. You cannot justify your long list as quantifiable data. It is inaccurate at best. Therefore you 10% does not met the acid test. This thread is riddled with these innuendos of yours. You discredit yourself each time you post one.

Now I will return the question for you to answer yourself. How is that for some hard data on which you have based your stats?

This brings me to your sneaking around on your secret mission. If you had of been straight with the boys at NTD when you wanted information regarding the air station; you would presently have accurate data of NTD and to think all you had to do was ask. Personally, I have been to 3 shops since Friday and asked for their current certification. Each was able to produce a current Z180 cert from OUC. One of the stores in the west end of T.O. was kind enough to gave me a photocopy for me file. There is really no need for the drama.

The answer to your OCA question is that there is no need to put out standards that are covered by common sense
James

James you are starting to sound like the tobacco company executive who asks to see proof that tobacco is addictive. Does the 'A' team want to continue to use OUC tested air despite lots of evidence supporting the position that this may represent a real 'point of failure' in your pre-dive planning. After all those urgent demands the last few days you now are satisfied with seeing new OUC certs at TO shops. I thought the 'A' team would only want the best analysis available especially when diving to depths at 7 atm. You are willing to mix medical grade O2 with unaccredited OUC air where one can never know the reliability of the CO or CO2 concentrations?

You duck the OCA question and yet TDI, IANDI, and ANDI all have positions on this as they recognize the importance of hyper-pure air to mix with medical grade O2 or helium. Can you please check with GUE and see whether OCU air will meet their rigorous standards. As I said this will be very interesting to know so we can compare.

Nope I was on no secret mission when I was looking to get a fill for my tanks to dive at the cottage near Kingston. That intake at NTD with the 180 degree elbow on the top is an inch and a half in diameter and somewhere between seven and eight feet tall. It was a good foot and a half about the top of the shed. Ok the compressor 'originated' (therefore 'used' not purchased new) from Downsview military base and it is still on its military trailor. Check for yourself there are three OUC certs which is far better than one a year but still not nearly as good as using a Canadian accredited lab as the MOL requires. I believe PADI does require quarterly test though. As for the hand packed filters that is what I was told at the time. Maybe things have changed for simplicity reasons. Cartriges certainly are easier than hand packs. It would be very easy to check though as MOL requires a compressor log be kept on site with all compressor maintenance documented. Any customer can request to see this. Most don't as like air certs they don't have a clue about what they mean. In the end I used only one tank and didn't need a fill. There is nothing defamatory when fact is stated. I look at the intake diameter and length as regardless of certification a narrow intake diameter and long length will starve the compressor and increase the likelihood of overheating and the breakdown of oils which can saturated the desicant and render the charcoal and hopcalite useless. I was pleased to see a very short intake and had I needed a fill in Kingston out of the three shops NTD had the best setup and monitoring despite the use of OUC.

Now though that you know there are better alternatives I will eagerly await your analysis of the air testing situation and will hope to hear your recommendation to NTD that they switch to accredited testing for the 'A' team. It not only makes good health sense but good business sense too. Divers want to purchase air from accredited air stations and will glady pay an extra .50 cents or a dollar to have proper testing.

Puffer

Jimmy B

July 23rd, 2003, 10:53 AM

Lots of info here, just incase your all getting your heads full and think that your're getting "bad air" in Ontario. Just remember that Ontario has one of the highest standards in the World.

Compared to other spots where you're diving. Now remember, (I'm stressing this). The following is the National Standard for a couple of Countries.

CDA US EUR (Low - High) MEX
Carbon Monoxide PPM 5 20 10-50 NS
Carbon Dioxide PPM 500 500 500-1000 NS
Hydrocarbons PPM 25 25 NS-30 NS
Trichlorotrifluorethylen PPM Only Canada Tests
Dichlorodfiluorethylen PPM Only Canada Tests
Cloorodifluoromethane PPM Only Canada Tests
Nitrogen Dioxide PPM .3 NS NS - .5 NS
Oil mg/M3 3 5 .3 - 5 NS
Max particle Size Free ND N/A - 50 Microns NS
Water Vapor mg/M3 50 ND NS - 100 NS
Odour None NO NO - NIL NS
Other ND ND ND - <1% NS
O2 Content 20-22 20-22 20-23 NS

ND = No Data
NS = No Standard
NO = Not objectable foul smelling

The way I understand it also is that this is the National standard read lowest standard allowed in that Country.

JB

Jimmy B

July 23rd, 2003, 11:10 AM

Jimmy B

July 23rd, 2003, 11:20 AM

pufferfish

July 23rd, 2003, 11:20 AM

Jimmy B once bubbled...
Lots of info here, just incase your all getting your heads full and think that your're getting "bad air" in Ontario. Just remember that Ontario has one of the highest standards in the World.

Compared to other spots where you're diving. Now remember, (I'm stressing this). The following is the National Standard for a couple of Countries.

CDA US EUR (Low - High) MEX
Carbon Monoxide PPM 5 20 10-50 NS
Carbon Dioxide PPM 500 500 500-1000 NS
Hydrocarbons PPM 25 25 NS-30 NS
Trichlorotrifluorethylen PPM Only Canada Tests
Dichlorodfiluorethylen PPM Only Canada Tests
Cloorodifluoromethane PPM Only Canada Tests
Nitrogen Dioxide PPM .3 NS NS - .5 NS
Oil mg/M3 3 5 .3 - 5 NS
Max particle Size Free ND N/A - 50 Microns NS
Water Vapor mg/M3 50 ND NS - 100 NS
Odour None NO NO - NIL NS
Other ND ND ND - <1% NS
O2 Content 20-22 20-22 20-23 NS

ND = No Data
NS = No Standard
NO = Not objectable foul smelling

The way I understand it also is that this is the National standard read lowest standard allowed in that Country.
JB

Jimmy, Canada does have one of the highest standards IF you are testing to CSA Z180.1 BY an accredited lab. Tell me on your OUC certificate is there an entry for halogenated hydrocarbons? And what about oil and particulates? Just more evidence that tests by the OUC would enter that chart somewhere between Romania and Mexico.

The chart is quite out of date by the way. The US standard (CGA Gr. E) for CO is 10 ppm and for CO2 is now 1000 ppm. In Canada we no longer as part of CSA Z180.1 test for nitrogen dioxide and the oil and particulate level has been lowered to 1 mg/m3.

Please lets only present up to date information, but it was interesting to see what Mexico is doing. Maybe the OUC could donate their equipment to the Mexicans and help them out. ;)

pufferfish

July 23rd, 2003, 12:00 PM

Jimmy three strikes and you are out. Three posts does not make the data any more recent :D

I know you are having problems with the format on that chart. I have had same problem in the past. As long as one knows the four numbers in any row represent Canada, US, Europe, and Mexico it is readable. Otherwise you have to use something like periods to separate the columns.

Jimmy B

July 23rd, 2003, 12:07 PM

Not sure how that happened, mistakes happen and If I did something wrong my appolgies.

JB

GTADiver

October 30th, 2003, 01:12 PM

I see Climb and Dive Toronto has a valid Maxxam certificate displayed at their air station.

pufferfish

October 31st, 2003, 07:36 AM

The following Ontario shops have a recent Canadian air certificate showing they meet or exceed the requirements of CSA Z180.1 (2000) standard for compressed breathing air.

1. Dive Center Ottawa www.divecenter.ca
2. Ron's Scuba Cornwall
3. Dolphinos Ottawa www.dolphinos.com
4. G&S Watersports Tobermory www.gswatersports.com
5. Diver's Den Tobermory www.diversden.ca
6. Burton's Dive Service Ottawa www.burtonsdive.com
7. Abucs Scuba Brockville www.divebrockville.com
8. Aquarius Scuba Toronto www.aquariusscuba.com
9. Climb and Dive Toronto www.climbtoronto.com

Tests by the OUC are not recognized as accredited. Certifications must be less than six months old and preferably less than three months old.

Still waiting to hear about any Kingston shops. If I have missed anyone please post the shop's name.

When you do buy fills from these shops knowing they have made a genuine effort to provide divers with safe air please tell the owner this is why you are patronizing their store. Postive reinforcement works wonders.

More on the way!

seahunter

November 4th, 2003, 10:08 PM

I'm certain that The Dive Shop in Newmarket should be on the list.

I notice that very few (none?) of the 'Super Stores' on your list are PADI 5 Star Centers that require 4 tests annually or every 3 months rather than just twice a year.

Is there any logical thought that says frequent tests are good?

Would it be silly for me to suggest that a store that has a test 4 times a year has the diver's safety at heart?

Maxxam recently indicated to me that they have something less than 20 scuba customers while the lab we use does the testing for over 1000 scuba stores (to CSA Z180.1 standard). I wonder if we should change and go for the one with less experience in this field?

Please don't repeat the entire thread puff.

pufferfish

November 4th, 2003, 11:34 PM

seahunter once bubbled...
I'm certain that The Dive Shop in Newmarket should be on the list.

I notice that very few (none?) of the 'Super Stores' on your list are PADI 5 Star Centers that require 4 tests annually or every 3 months rather than just twice a year.

Is there any logical thought that says frequent tests are good?

Would it be silly for me to suggest that a store that has a test 4 times a year has the diver's safety at heart?

Maxxam recently indicated to me that they have something less than 20 scuba customers while the lab we use does the testing for over 1000 scuba stores (to CSA Z180.1 standard). I wonder if we should change and go for the one with less experience in this field?

Please don't repeat the entire thread puff.

Seahunter is that "certain" like the time you were "certain" that you were testing to Z180 until Ruby Ochoa at Trace proved otherwise? I will believe it when I see it, but will verify first. Thank you for the sighting.

Regarding testing frequency and timing, this has been discussed previously here. In an ideal world it should be based on hours, temp, and humidity. Six months might be fine in the slow dry winter months but monthly might be better in the busy humid summer months. A reasonable compromise is quarterly testing.
Testing frequency and timing (http://www.scubaboard.com/t39733/s.html)

If you don't want the same points argued then why bring them up. Let's just say as a very conservative estimate of the proportion of shops in Ontario not testing at all or using the OUC is sixty percent. I think there are something like seventy to eighty shops in Ontario. Therefore 32 shops are using other higher quality labs. If twenty of those are Maxxam then they that is two thirds of the business in Ontario. Maxxam also does most of the firestations now in Metro and those right up to North Bay. These are the guys who must breath compressed air for a living. Trace is drawing from the entire US so that number of shops if accurate does not surprise me. Just remember quality and quantity are not necessarily the same.

I just checked the PADI web site and *five* of the shops above are PADI shops one of which is 5 star. All PADI shops are required to test quarterly not just the 5 star, but only the 5 star are required to keep these results on file according to Randy at PADI Canada.

By the way I refered someone up to your shop for a weekend wonder course during the summer. Guess what, no mention whatsoever of asking for a recent air certificate. What happened to your policy of including this in the course? Hot air (Z180 I would hope) or instructors not following your directives? :D

Chet

November 5th, 2003, 02:07 AM

I am not certain PADI Canada would know an air test certificate if they had it hit them in the face.
Let's face it people, Z180 is the bench mark in Canada, not the padi police.
Chet

amobeus

November 5th, 2003, 04:04 AM

Hi

I've been breathing the air from just about every dive shop and pump station in Ontario for the last 15 years, and I've never had any air quality problems. Why is that people always look to find faults in there heros instead of the good side of the life. You people need to get your self a Anthony Robins kit or therapy.

Happy diving for me

Amobeus

pufferfish

November 5th, 2003, 07:56 AM

amobeus once bubbled...
Hi

I've been breathing the air from just about every dive shop and pump station in Ontario for the last 15 years, and I've never had any air quality problems. Why is that people always look to find faults in there heros instead of the good side of the life. You people need to get your self a Anthony Robins kit or therapy.

Happy diving for me

Amobeus

Amobeus, I've been sending people for colonoscopies for twelve years and assumed (after reading Mr. Robins) the long black snakes were properly sterilized. For the second time in two years a hospital (this time Oshawa) is recalling a hundred patients as someone forgot to sterilize the gear properly. Sh*t happens in this life and in this case one only knows about it as likely an honest nurse said something to the people that matter, otherwise the incompetence would have gone undetected and one might never know how they contracted a disease. How many times has this happened and we don't know about it as nothing is said. Look at the neurologist in Scarborough who wasn't cleaning his EEG needles between patients and infected sixty or so with hepatitis B about five years ago. He didn 't say anything to anybody. It was detected by another alert doc who noticed the spike in cases from a small geographic area.

With scuba air it is much the same whereby unless one is outright killed or there is a whole class that gets sick bad air is usually a sporadic event which often goes undetected. Lipoid pneumonia doesn't make headlines and that is only if you make the connection. Dr. Bill on this board just last week aborted a dive as his air tasted like oil. You may be lucky or you may be only using shops that do test properly but if there is no testing or inadequate testing Mr. Murphy will visit you one day. When that happens your Anthony Robins tape series will be of little use :)

seahunter

November 6th, 2003, 04:38 AM

Jeez puff - how do you get away with it?
If I posted a reply as personally insulting as yours I be shot!!
Maybe it's because I own a dive store.
Of course , the difference could also be that people really care about what I say.

I. You're right! Trace did not check for one tiny component listed in the CSA specs until earlier this year. Of course, no other country does either. Have you or anyone else considered that the CSA specs are intentionally designed only so that CSA can say they are the most rigid rather than because the specs are necessary?
Regardless, stores getting air tests made by recognized, accedited labs exceeding Z-180 may be excluded from your list but the air is certainly equal and may be better. I simply point out that Trace for one is a much more experienced lab and they test to Z-180. You have gone to great pains to demonstrate to amobeus how things screw up and for someone to blindly trust an institution is foolish yet you insist in this thread (17 pages now - setting a record) that blind trust in the CSA and more specifically a Canadian test facility is the answer to the problem (have you actually established there is a problem yet?). If every dive store used the same agency, there would be no control factor. You ought to be pleased that I am providing a comparison test to the same standards but from another facility. It gives us all a comparison - a test factor if you like. If I may, my faith in the CSA is not without reservation for good, historical reasons. Don't they also set standards for water testing, etc? I don't say they don't do a good job - I simply suggest we should watch them too.
You suggest a compromise in the CSA standards with respect to frequency. Where else might we look for compromises?
2. Quality can be measured. A new test facility has perfect quality from it's first day in business. Quantity provides proof of consistent quality over time. Both are required.
3. Right again! (Randy is a helpful fellow.). PADI Dive Centers are required to have quarterly tests. PADI 5 Stars are required to file the results. Given your healthy scepticism (other than when it comes to the CSA), I'm surprised you don't see the difference. My point still stands.
4. Thanks for the referral. I hope your friend had a good time and enjoys their new sport. The policy which I instituted based on the discussions on this thread is a matter of record and is available for all my staff to read on the Staff Forum of the The Diving Board. The policy was also discussed and agreed to by all the leaders at the monthly Leader's Meeting at that time. The posts on the Policy and Procedure Forum are dated so you can see when it was posted. Please refrain from insinuating I'm dishonest. There are simply too many divers who know otherwise. I'm happy to give you access to that private forum if you won't accept my word but will insist on an apolgy here after you read it. Let me know your choice. Your member number for The Diving Board is all I require to give you access.
I'd appreciate a private message with the name of your friend so I can find who their instructor was and take the necessary action to ensure they correct the error by contacting each student in the class. They won't forget that policy in the future.
Are you aware of any other scuba school who has taken this pro-active step other than ourselves?

pufferfish

November 6th, 2003, 10:39 AM

Seahunter I see I am not the only one on this forum recently who has taken issue with your posts. It has nothing to do with being a dive store owner and everything to do with the content and presentation of your posts. As you and anybody who has been following this thread knows for the longest time you claimed you were meeting CSA Z180.1-00 standards when in fact you were not. Initially we praised you as the only shop in the GTA at the time who was doing so, and if you look back in this thread you took these compliments and further boasted about the claim. You can then imagine our disappointment when a letter to the President of Trace Analytics, Ruby Ochoa, revealed this was clearly not the case and that we had been had. At that point in time Ms. Ochoa stated Trace Analytics had never tested to this standard but was planning on doing so in the near future. What you did was disingenuous at best, but it served to undermine the credibility and wealth of experience you do have from being in this industry so long. We do welcome your thoughts here but only when they are accurate and contribute to the debate and not to S2K's self-promotion.

Now back to your other points. There really isn't too much to argue about whether Trace Analytics is better than Maxxam. I am not in a position to say one is better than the other. Trace is accredited in the US by A2LA, the US equivalent of our Standards Council of Cananda (SCC). If you are using them now to test to CSA Z180 with their *new* (since July/03) service that is great. Some though in the MOL might split hairs with you if push came to shove over a bad air incident and state the CSA standard does specify a Canadian accredited lab be used. I am not skeptical about the CSA standard anymore than I am about the CGA Grade E standard as these standards are just a list of numbers chosen by a panel of 'experts' in the compressed breathing air analysis business. If one wants to be skeptical (I think one should be) it would be about the actual accreditation process which is either done by the SCC in Canada or by A2LA in the States. A person with training in compressed gas analysis and analytical chemistry would have to sit down and compare the policies and procedures between the two agencies and basically look at what equipment and procedures are being done to measure each contaminant in question by the individual labs. Questions such as how often are the labs reviewed, how often are blinded samples sent to test the accuracy and precision of each member lab, and what is done to rectify a lab where unreliable results are found. After this review the only way to truly compare the reliability of the two accreditations would be to take blinded samples with known concentrations of the contaminants across various concentration levels and send them to both labs. This is what is done by the SCC and A2LA in each country but in order to truly compare the two agencies across the border this is what would have to be done. Obviously this is not going to happen anytime soon so until shown otherwise we will just have to accept equivalency. I don't have a problem with that.

As far as that student who attended a course at S2K (said the instruction was excellent) after your directive was issued, it clearly illustrates a point in all of this discussion. You can set all the 'regulations' you want even in your own business, but unless there is someone there to monitor compliance very few will follow it especially if they don't understand the importance of the directive in the first place. No need to show me the directive as I believe you on that one, but just thought I would point out what happens to a good idea meant to enhance the safety of divers when no one monitors compliance. Sounds very familiar doesn't it. I am not interested in having an instructor singled out as who knows maybe none of them are teaching to ask for a recent air certificate. Maybe the guy just forgot that particular day. Yes you are the only shop I know that has this directive but maybe you need to remind the instructors at least quarterly about following that S2K Z180.1-03 standard, else plus ca change,...;)