TDI GUE course differences

[tomcat]

I'm thinking about going into deco/trimix diving and have been gathering information on GUE and TDI courses. GUE is rather informative about course standards and topics covered but I couldn't find out much about TDI.

Would like to have your opinion on:

a. Significant differences between GUE and TDI tech courses (not cave/penetration courses)

b. Major advantages that each curriculum has over the other

c. Major disadvantages that each curriculum has over the other

d. Time/$$ differences between the two

thanks in advance!

[AquaTec]

here is a site for TDI course information...there are a lot more if this does not give you what you need. just let me know
http://www.tdisdi.com/tdi/courses/courses.html

Your questions
Would like to have your opinion on:

a. Significant differences between GUE and TDI tech courses (not cave/penetration courses)

I have never taken a GUE course so i can't respond to the differences....personaly i think they are more simular than difference except for the way they perform decompression.
make sure that you consider your sourse as others respond. and make sure they have taken a decompression course with both agencies...there are a lot of wanta bees on this board with strong oppinions

b. Major advantages that each curriculum has over the other
the most popular style of tech diving comes from either IANTD or TDI based on numbers of students and facilities. also TDI is more open to adjusting gear etc to your style of diving, i think of it as a more free form of diving, this of course requires the diver to not be a follower but someone who makes decisions on their own and justifies those decisions with good background info

c. Major disadvantages that each curriculum has over the other
TDI's disadvantage is that GUE's followers are very bonded together in their oppinion and to their agency where as TDI's divers get there instruction and then just get about their business of diving, it doesn't have that RA RA go team mentality.


d. Time/$$ differences between the two
TDI Advanced Nitrox Deco Procedures combined course I charge $1,000.00us plus gasses and charters. time varies based on the students usualy about 6 days.

again i have tried to give you some ideas about TDI but can't really compare with GUE as I have not taken one of their courses

[db8us]

I suggest first do the TDI course, letīs say extended Range

Most likely you will use steel stages, bondage wings, independent doubles, double-bladder, reels for shoting bags, etc.

Afterwards you will do the GUE course, sell all the crap and buy a decent rig.

Then you really have the maximum out of it. I sometimes feel sorry for the DIR-dudes that directly went the "right" way, because they have no clue how bad diving can be :)

By the way: I HAVE done both courses !

Michael

[MikeFerrara]

db8us once bubbled...
I suggest first do the TDI course, letīs say extended Range

Most likely you will use steel stages, bondage wings, independent doubles, double-bladder, reels for shoting bags, etc.

Afterwards you will do the GUE course, sell all the crap and buy a decent rig.

Then you really have the maximum out of it. I sometimes feel sorry for the DIR-dudes that directly went the "right" way, because they have no clue how bad diving can be :)

By the way: I HAVE done both courses !

Michael

I must have picked better instructors than you I got all halcyon stuff but my cards are IANTD and NACD.

You really think most TDI instructors would recommend independant doubles?

[AquaTec]

db8us once bubbled...
I suggest first do the TDI course, letīs say extended Range

Most likely you will use steel stages, bondage wings, independent doubles, double-bladder, reels for shoting bags, etc.

Afterwards you will do the GUE course, sell all the crap and buy a decent rig.

Then you really have the maximum out of it. I sometimes feel sorry for the DIR-dudes that directly went the "right" way, because they have no clue how bad diving can be :)

By the way: I HAVE done both courses !

Michael


See the RA Ra has started allready...
sounds like you had a either a bad instructor or just a bad experience.....or they did not make you feel like part of the team that GUE does for you.

it is OK to use the gear stated above if that is what you want to use. TDI doesn't teach that you MUSY use a certain type of gear and configuration, the idavidual instructor will show you several types of gear configurations and then you decide what works best for you, your diving sty;e, and your diving enviroment.

I was just in Scapa Flow Scotland, and guess what they do not have manifolded doubles there. so if you are going to dive there you better know how to use independent doubles...and those who brough their own manifolds etc could not rig them because of size difference etc.

that is not to say that TDI teaches independent double, heck i have never met an instructor teaching anything but manifolded doubles and aluminium stages. but who know who is out there.
I knew the precasions associated with independents because i used them prior to manifolds being invented.

I love bondage wings, for a well balanced rig there is not much better...i won't go into it here as there is at least a 1000 posts on the pros and cons of bunggied wings here.

I will never realy on anything but my bladder for lift, therefor i will always use a double bladder. have you ever used your drysuit to slow you down on a rapid descent after your bladder has failed.

try this out start your decent, at about 30 feet let all the air out of your bcd and disconect it, check your air pressure, etc. and in this time about one minute you will probably find yourself descending at about 100 feet per minute. now you are at about 90 feet start inflating your drysuit to slow you down and stop your descent, this will probably take place at about 140 feet. hopefully you are not breathing the wrong nitrox mix.

now do you continue the dive or abort.....with a double bladder you would not experience any of this and you would continue your dive as normal

now a question for you....are you suggesting that you do not use a reel for shooting a bag, or that you do not shoot a bag at all.

[sheck33]

the answer is simple, the GUE courses are by far the better courses for reasons already discussed 1000 times. No need to repeat that here. :boom:

db8us is so right

[MikeFerrara]

AquaTec once bubbled...



now a question for you....are you suggesting that you do not use a reel for shooting a bag, or that you do not shoot a bag at all.

They only use spools. If you use a reel they accuse you of living in a barn. It will surely kill you if you use a reel didn't you know that?

[AquaTec]

sheck33 once bubbled...
the answer is simple, the GUE courses are by far the better courses for reasons already discussed 1000 times. No need to repeat that here. :boom:

db8us is so right

it would be interesting to hear from you as to why they are better

[MikeFerrara]

sheck33 once bubbled...
the answer is simple, the GUE courses are by far the better courses for reasons already discussed 1000 times. No need to repeat that here. :boom:

db8us is so right

I don't think db8us really said anything at all. He sort of said that after your TDI class you would want to buy all new gear. He didn't say GUE was good or why he thought it was good.

Since he didn't really say anything I don't think he was right and I don't think he was any help to the person asking the question. I do think he was sarcastic and arrogant while saying nothing of value.

So why don't you tell us? What will you get with a GUE class that you can't get with a TDI or IANTD class?

[boomx5]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
So why don't you tell us? What will you get with a GUE class that you can't get with a TDI or IANTD class?

It seems like it would be a more prudent thing to ask someone who is an instructor, or who has taught for all three agencies before we can make an accurate assumption on which agency is better.

[MikeFerrara]

boomx5 once bubbled...


It seems like it would be a more prudent thing to ask someone who is an instructor, or who has taught for all three agencies before we can make an accurate assumption on which agency is better.

Gee boom, for a minute it was looking like they knew something and wanted to tell us. I guess not. You'll have that though.

[AquaTec]

boomx5 once bubbled...


It seems like it would be a more prudent thing to ask someone who is an instructor, or who has taught for all three agencies before we can make an accurate assumption on which agency is better. \


it is not about which one is better, they all have very strong points and some minor weaknesses...keeping it limited to TDI, IANTD and GUE.

the question is what are the differences.
Mike I would like to hear from you on your view point as to the differencess.

and anyone from GUE who can coment with actual usefull information

[MikeFerrara]

sheck33 once bubbled...
the answer is simple, the GUE courses are by far the better courses for reasons already discussed 1000 times. No need to repeat that here. :boom:

db8us is so right

IANTD is ten times better than GUE. I'm thinking that only a farm animal would choose GUE over IANTD.

[MikeFerrara]

AquaTec once bubbled...



it is not about which one is better, they all have very strong points and some minor weaknesses...keeping it limited to TDI, IANTD and GUE.

the question is what are the differences.
Mike I would like to hear from you on your view point as to the differencess.

and anyone from GUE who can coment with actual usefull information

I think they made it about insulting the ones you don't like.

I would of course discuss it but I going to take a break cause anything I say now will because I feel like jerking the chain of an arrogant GI wannabe. I'll be back

[AquaTec]

Mike
I am supprised how much you sound like a GUE diver.

"mine is the best and yours stink"

whats up with that


of course we know that TDI/IANTD is ten times better, but it would be good to hear something from GUE divers other than mine is better than yours or because GI says so.

looking to see if they dare break ranks, and speak for themselves. I wonder what the repremand for that would be. maybe they get their speedo taken away

[MikeFerrara]

AquaTec,

I'm tryin it on to see how it feels. There must be a reason so many are like that.

Not only is mine better but it's bigger! Naa, don't feel right I'm going to need some practice, maybe in front of a mirror or something.

I'll be back in a bit.

[AquaTec]

if you wear the speedo it will look bigger

[boomx5]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
IANTD is ten times better than GUE. I'm thinking that only a farm animal would choose GUE over IANTD.
:laugh:

You remind me of GI3's evil twin, or like a Bazarro-Superman or something.

[sheck33]

Everything said below is merely my opinion. All has been said before too.
I was originally CMAS trained, this was in the late 80's. I had no exposure to PADI but heard A LOT of negative comments about PADI training and standards. When i moved to the US i finally was exposed to PADI, did DM and AI and helped with OW, AOW , rescue and DM classes. At this time i didnt know about GUE.
I found that, indeed, the rumours turned out to be true. PADI standards are designed to accomedate anyone. Comfort over competence & quantity over quality. It's about money and not about turning out competent divers. I am not bashing PADI instructors because they are largely stuck by what PADI tells them to do, you cant blame the instructor for an agency's low standards. SO, i am not a brainwashed GUE diver, i found out that PADI is not the way to go BEFORE i ever knew about GUE.

I then decided to try TDI and at about the same time i found out about GUE. I did TDI advanced nitrox and deco procedures and while far superior to anything PADI has to offer there is still important stuff missing. I then did GUE fundamentals and found that the DIR way is the way to go for me. As a matter of fact i will do DIR-F again in June. The things GUE insists on, standardized gear, no deep air, buddy skills etc etc make perfect sense, it makes me cry to see the cluster****s of gear i see on the beach.

I also know that DIR gear doesnt make a diver a DIR diver either.
Do a GUE class and THEN tell me they are full of it.
Most people bashing GUE dont even really know what it is about.

But then again PADI really gives people what they want, a c-card rather than diveskills. And of course the dive industry capitalizes on peoples ignorance. The Spare Death device is a good example.

I dont know enough about IANTD. But to say TDI is better is ridiculous. Look at the dives the GUE teams do!! If they are so full of it why arent they dying like flies??? They must be doing something right?

I agree the acronym DIR is maybe poorly chosen but lets get beyond an acronym shall we.


What exactly is bad in the GUE approach other than the fact that some people just dont like their approach?? Name something that does not make perfect sense.

Does the above explain my comment GUE provides better training?

Ok, rant over, shoot me if you want to
:boom: :boom:

[MikeFerrara]

boomx5 once bubbled...

:laugh:

You remind me of GI3's evil twin, or like a Bazarro-Superman or something.

I'm practicing so I can speak their language. It's hard on this board though because I can't swear and call them names.

You know these guys come on here and I guess they think they're spoutin stuff we haven't heard before. If the guy knew some of us he'd know that we'd be happy to hear his ideas on dive training, techniques or whatever. Instead they come around spouting that GI intimidation routine and they think someone is going to listen...why?

[rogerhelmich]

A new commer reading agency wars would think that Scuba was a unsafe sport

[MikeFerrara]

sheck33,

I won't shoot you. I'm glad you got a good class from GUE. I absolutly believe they do what they do well. If you are happy with what you got I think your right in saying so. If your not happy with what you got from other agencies and instructors your right for sharing that with others also. That isn't what I have a problem with.

I will tell you something else. We teach a real mean OW class and you know what? We can't sell it. NINE out of TEN go where it's cheaper and faster by choice after we tell them what they get with us and why we do it. Hell, I even have a money back garantee. A few of these divers keep diving and later realize they can't dive. Then they run around blaming PADI and go take a DIRF. Could PADI raise the bar and force it on them. Look around some one will always do it cheap. the customer is always right as they say. I think it's funny as hell!

In order to stay out of jail I'm going to have to shorten and cheapen the class and give the masses what they want. I guess then I'll be able to fill a DIRF.

[AquaTec]

Shek33
Nice responce....lets keep PADI out of this unless you are speaking of the Tec Deep etc.


This is about tech diving only. GUE teaches tech diving skills so of course there is a big difference between any rec organisation's teaching and any tech organisation.

I don't think Mike nor I where seriously bashing GUE, it was more of a response to the two people who responded to the seriouse question with "my dad is bigger than your dad"

I would love to hear what you think about the differences are between the two agencies. keeping the skill level the same. ie deco procedure/trimix from both agencies.

the one real big difference i know of is the way GUE perfrms their deco, it may not be better..it is just different.

by stating

Look at the dives the GUE teams do!! If they are so full of it why arent they dying like flies??? They must be doing something right?

is silly, because we could say the same about TDI or IANTD divers
what you are realy saying is that they are good at publicity, and they have one good organized project underway which is well funded and researched. I am not making small of the things they are accomplatiing, I am just saying that there are a lot of guys out there doing great dives that are just as demanding and chalanging and they too are surviving. this isn't about what a small group is doing within any organisation. GUE wins that one, and what a great marketing tool for their training and equipment program, they can never finish the "research" as it would be like turning off the advertisments to their other profitable sidelines

this is about the differences between the two training organisations for the entry level deco diver

[AquaTec]

rogerhelmich once bubbled...
A new commer reading agency wars would think that Scuba was a unsafe sport

it is an unsafe sport. if you want safe don't leave your computer and just talk about diving

[Waterlover]

Tell us about Scapa Flow...

[tomcat]

I had been very impressed with people at Scubaboard until now. Whenever a question is asked, answers are usually informative and to the point.

Why are people jumping so quickly to the better/worse part without even answering the first part about significant differences? If you don't state or can't state the differences, how can you then explain to someone which is better and which is worse?

Besides, the question was about advantages and disadvantages. Not which course is better. That judgement comes only after examining the relative advantages and disadvantages.

In my opinion, I shouldn't have asked this question here, having suspected that people can't see past the GUE vs Rest of the World debate. How do you expexct a new prospective technical diver like me to make informed choices when people just focus on the who got the better agency debate without being able to elaborate intelligently on why it is so.

I have heard about people from some agencies being lemmings (act/speak without thinking/understanding) and I thought it was because of how the questions were phrased (of the which is better variety). Thought I could avoid that by breaking the question down into parts before coming to the which is better part. Guess I was wrong. The force is strong! The darkside beckons :p

[AquaTec]

I will post a repot under tech trips

[db8us]

AquaTec once bubbled...

sounds like you had a either a bad instructor or just a bad experience.....or they did not make you feel like part of the team that GUE does for you.

it is OK to use the gear stated above if that is what you want to use. TDI doesn't teach that you MUSY use a certain type of gear and configuration, the idavidual instructor will show you several types of gear configurations and then you decide what works best for you, your diving sty;e, and your diving enviroment.

I was just in Scapa Flow Scotland, and guess what they do not have manifolded doubles there. so if you are going to dive there you better know how to use independent doubles...and those who brough their own manifolds etc could not rig them because of size difference etc.

that is not to say that TDI teaches independent double, heck i have never met an instructor teaching anything but manifolded doubles and aluminium stages. but who know who is out there.
I knew the precasions associated with independents because i used them prior to manifolds being invented.

I will never realy on anything but my bladder for lift, therefor i will always use a double bladder. have you ever used your drysuit to slow you down on a rapid descent after your bladder has failed.

now a question for you....are you suggesting that you do not use a reel for shooting a bag, or that you do not shoot a bag at all.

Maybe i was unfair, because my TDI course was already in 1996.
The said i MUST use double-bladder wings, so i had no choice.
And yes, i am able to escape with a punctured wing (i tried that).

And Yes, i have been to Scapa-Flow last time 1997. We dove of the Jean-Elaine and Sunrise and we brought our own doubles.
DIR is also about proper preparation. By the way, i liked south-England more !We started there from Portland and Looe.

My TDI training was in Egypt, they only had 12l steel-stages and were wearing them across the chest !

I suggest you use a spool for shooting a bag. Reels i use inside a wreck or cave.

Maybe people should have a look at the standards for the Instructor-rating of the various agencies.

About been arrogant (Mikeīs post):
I just gave my personal experience, nothing more, nothing less.

About the IANTD stuff:
I also did IANTD-courses from Nitrox up to Trimix. I must admit, that the IANTD classes were far better than the TDI, but the Instructor was Billy Deans in Key West and he is no more active.
The Nitrox instructor in Germany knew less about the theory than myself :( as a student. (no kidding)

I can not comment on DIR-F since i did my GUE training when this course did not exist.

Also i can not comment on teaching any courses, since i am not (no more) an instructor , because i rather go diving the fun stuff.

I did not want to be arrogant, just give some personal thoughts because i had done both courses.

It would be interesting to know about the "GUE-bashers" which GUE courses they have done so far, so they can compare both courses ?


Michael

[AquaTec]

db8us
tell us what you see as the major differences, good and bad between the two or three agencies.
why specificly is GUE better

[db8us]

AquaTec once bubbled...
db8us
tell us what you see as the major differences, good and bad between the two or three agencies.
why specificly is GUE better

First, GUE is not giving away Instructor-cards. I know at least one TDI-Instructor personally who has got his card without beeing a recreational instructor and without any formal "training", just because he was "famous".

Second, there are no shortcuts. I was a swimmer when i was young and i asked my GUE-instructor if i can skip the swimming, cause it was damned cold and raining and there was only a cold pool.
She said: if you were a swimmer in the past, go and hurry, you should be out of the water fast !

In both TDI and some IANTD classes it was ok to knee on the ground and do drills like stage-clipping. In both GUE courses it was mandatory to do it all perfect neutral and horizontal.

Also in the equipment part TDI just accepted everything, at Billy Deans we were at least talking about it, GUE went over every single piece.

Also TDI did not care about any buddy-awareness, IANTD Germany neither, but Billy Deans has and GUE strongly focused on that.

Also the spent "in-water" time was MUCH more in the GUE courses.

Billy Deans was equally good as Tamara when it came to general things. Once he kicked a guy out for always beeing late on the dock, because he said that this was the wrong attitude.

One specific deatil from the IANTD course.
We had to do an exam and when calculating the dive you came out with a CNS% of 103 when decoing on O2.
The "right" solution was to use EAN80 instead, since this was the prefferd gas for IANTD anyway.
I told Billy i think that is stupid since the 100% can not be kept anyway on long dives and that the CNS% was a pure statistical thing.
He said it was for the theory and the next day we decoed on pure O2, surface-supplied from the boat.

Today i can not keep the CNS under 100% on most of my dives anyway...


Michael

[tomcat]

Thanks Michael! Now we're getting somewhere. Keep'em coming folks! : )

[MikeFerrara]

I tend to agree with most of what Micharl said.

Quality
IANTD and TDI are much bigger than GUE. As such I'm afraid that they don't have much of a handle on quality control so you will find good instructors and bad ones. GUE on the other hand is smaler and newer and at the presant time I think the quality will be more iniform.

Equipment

I don't know about TDI here but IANTD teaches a student what some of the commonly used configurations are and how they should evaluate them. JJ actually has a pretty big section in the IANTD text explaining his rig but so does Lamar Hires. Others can do as they choose but I've been an engineer for a good number of years and anyone who thinks there is only one best solution to a problem is dreaming. The universe just wasn't made that way. So between the two the equipment philosophy is totally different. IANTD tries to teach you to evaluate and improve your equipment while GUE tells you what the answer is. IANTD tries to teach you how to decide what is right next year. GUE says keep in touch we'll tell you what we decided.

Over a year ago I had a conversation right here on this board with someone about how I didbn't like clipping a reel on the butt d-ring. I received all kinds of advice on how to make it work, even in PM's. Now GI says he doesn't do it that way anymore and everyone is taking the reels out of their butt. Either it worked for you or it didn't. I tried it, thought about it and decided it stunk without help.

Decompression
Big difference here to. As far as I know all the agencies with the exception of GUE will insist that you plan your dives within the NOAA O2 exposure limits. Everyone knows that those limits aren't perfect but it's the most established method. The WKPP and GUE in turn have been utilizing other methods with good results. To my knowledge the phisiologists still don't have a clue about why some of the WKPP methods work so it will be a while before other agencied adopt those methods. Some examples would be "the toggle threory"and the way O2 exposure is controled.

When it comes to decompression theory there are different models and methods and it's a moving target. After your class it will be up to you to eveluate current information and decide on a decompression strategy. Heck, just within one decompression software you can run a profile and get 13 minutes of deco with the user adjustable settings one way and 70 minutes with them set another way.

There is a major difference in philosophy.

[db8us]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Decompression
Big difference here to. As far as I know all the agencies with the exception of GUE will insist that you plan your dives within the NOAA O2 exposure limits. Everyone knows that those limits aren't perfect but it's the most established method. The WKPP and GUE in turn have been utilizing other methods with good results. To my knowledge the phisiologists still don't have a clue about why some of the WKPP methods work so it will be a while before other agencied adopt those methods. Some examples would be "the toggle threory"and the way O2 exposure is controled.

When it comes to decompression theory there are different models and methods and it's a moving target. After your class it will be up to you to eveluate current information and decide on a decompression strategy. Heck, just within one decompression software you can run a profile and get 13 minutes of deco with the user adjustable settings one way and 70 minutes with them set another way.

There is a major difference in philosophy.

I totally agree with that ! And this one of the "critics" i hear about the Tech-1. People still tend to think that there is a "safe and valid deco for each profile with 1 Second-intervals to follow.

So for the "newbies" it is hard to live with the fact that deco is not a "formula"....

Michael

And to be fair about my TDI and IANTD statements:
They were before year 2000

[Doppler]

tomcat once bubbled...
I'm thinking about going into deco/trimix diving and have been gathering information on GUE and TDI courses. GUE is rather informative about course standards and topics covered but I couldn't find out much about TDI.

Would like to have your opinion on:

a. Significant differences between GUE and TDI tech courses (not cave/penetration courses)

b. Major advantages that each curriculum has over the other

c. Major disadvantages that each curriculum has over the other

d. Time/$$ differences between the two

thanks in advance!

Hi Tomcat:

First: I have to declare a conflict of interest... I am and I-T for TDI! However, JJ was also my cave instructor and I have a great deal of respect for him.

OK that out of the way, I will say that like most instructors at this level (trimix) my courses do not "follow" the outline put out by the agency. I think this is true of TDI, IANTD and any other agency. In my case, my courses meet what TDI says are minimum standards, but I encourage instructors and am encouraged by my "boss" to develop something that reflects the needs of local conditions and the experience gathered doing dives in those condidtions. My course outline for example, bears little resemblance to the one given me by TDI and my exams are my exams and are actually very different to TDIs. I teach Hogathian techniques and point out to students that some of the things suggested in TDI manuals will get them hurt if they try that **** in the Great Lakes. An example, the tables used in the manuals and the gas mixes make little sense. VPM and RGBM are now taught as standard here, a major deviation from TDI "law." For example teaching 80/20 is silly and I don't know any TDI instructors still teaching deep air.

The major difference from what I can see is that GUE has a strong brand and set course curriculum. There is less latitude for the instructor. This has good and bad points. By the way, I feel GUE materials are very good. There are some faults but it is impossible to produce course materials that are suitable for all conditions globally.)

One of the outcomes of GUE's policy is much tighter quality control. The cadre of instructors right now seem to be excellent divers and the majority are fine instructors. With a small organization, this is possible. I have my opinion of how management issues might be handled as GUE grows, but that's all about management style and MBA stuff which we can discuss in another thread if you wish.

As an agency TDI has suffered greatly in the past because of I-Ts and instructors who cut corners. I recently refused to certify a trimix instructor who had, in my opinion, fast-tracked his way from openwater instructor to deco instructor and frankly was a mess in the water. He went to another IT and got certified... Bad mark for TDI in my opinion. However, we are trying to clean that sort of bull**** up. It will take time and likely there will always be crappy instructors.

The question you may ask then is why do I teach for TDI... well apart from being a friend of the founders -- which does allow me some licence -- I find the support is there. Running a teaching business is easy with TDI backing me up and supplying materials.

What does all this mean? We go right back to the old adage interview instructors. Listen to what they say and ask for referrals. You are buying a very expensive course and committing a lot of time to it. Make sure the chemistry between you and your instructor and the scope of the course feel right to you.

Good luck

Doppler

[sheck33]

AquaTec once bubbled...
Shek33
Nice responce....lets keep PADI out of this unless you are speaking of the Tec Deep etc.

This is about tech diving only. GUE teaches tech diving skills so of course there is a big difference between any rec organisation's teaching and any tech organisation.

I don't think Mike nor I where seriously bashing GUE, it was more of a response to the two people who responded to the seriouse question with "my dad is bigger than your dad"

I would love to hear what you think about the differences are between the two agencies. keeping the skill level the same. ie deco procedure/trimix from both agencies.

the one real big difference i know of is the way GUE perfrms their deco, it may not be better..it is just different.

this is about the differences between the two training organisations for the entry level deco diver

I dont agree. The whole GUE versus the rest of the world is not just about tech diving. PADI does have a place in the 'discussion'
GUE's approach is just as valid in tech diving as it is in rec diving. At the moment i do still care, it frustrates me to see divers come out of classes they paid money for and not know much more than they did going into the class. It frustrates me to see divesites destroyed because divers where never taught what real bouyancy control is.

PADI should stay away from anything technical until they straighten out their recreational program.

differences between the 2 agenciesas i see them:

GUE focuses on basic skills BEFORE even letting you into a tech class. Basic skills being mainly bouyancy, buddy awareness & gear. The people in my deco class should not have been in the class to begin with. Again this is true for rec or tec dives.

Gear: standardized gear makes perfect sense. Having 5 divers and 5 different gear configurations is a bad thing when something goes wrong. Be it a tec or rec dive, it doesnt matter. When i dive with my GF i dont have to inspect her gear to see what item is located where, i know her setup because it is identical to mine. ( of course pre dive checks are still done)

TDI deco procedures simply ignores gas consumption on ascents and descents. On deeper dives you cant ignore that. TDI has an everyone for himself attitude. Gas calculations ignore the dive buddy. So while airmanagement in PADI classes is completely missing in TDI it is incomplete.

cutting corners, and i have seen that with both TDI and PADI but mostly PADI, instructors that have no business being an instructor. This is were PADI quality assurance completely fails.

GUE requires a far larger number of dives before admitting students to higher level classes. PADI allows you get AOW within 10 dives...ridiculous.

TDI promotes deep air dives. I have been (too) deep on air, it is stupid.

TDI's use of an 80/20 mix for deco instead of 100% O2 as a means to compensate for lacking bouyany skills laughable.

If GUE grows quality assurance gets harder no doubt. If GUE ever starts cutting corners like PADI & TDI do i will move away from GUE.

Repetition: GUE makes you do stuff over and over. Which is a good thing, what good is it if i take off my mask in OW once sitting on the bottom and then never practice this again in any other class???

too many people do not realize how unforgiving the underwater environment is. You get away with cutting corners in your training until you dont.

I have by the way been thinking about doing the PADI tec program just to find out if it is any better than the rec stuff they do. If i do i'll let you know what i think

I hope this is a more detailed response as to why i think GUE is the better agency.

[MikeFerrara]

sheck33,

I hate to say it but I'm being assimilated. It has been a very hard lesson and has cost almost all that I have. Here is the way it shakes out.

The PADI system is exactly what it is intended to be and does what it's designed to do. It is what the majority of the diving public wants and they will not settle for anything else even when available. They have no desire to spend much time, effort or money becomming a good diver. They don't want to be good divers. They want to be able to survive long enough to see the reef and then go have coctails with their freinds. I just blew through the last of my modest life savings trying to convince divers they could and should dive better.

They are right. You are wrong. I am wrong. I have the reciepts to prove it.

For the few who really do want to learn to dive there are places and ways. The fact remains though that they are the FEW.

[MikeFerrara]

PADI and tech diving.

Call it tech sight seeing if you want but they will issue oodles of cards. Places like Bakini will do business like never before. Little islands in the middle of nowere that don't have a set of doubles or a boat going to tech sites will have all the gear on hand and the charters at reasonable prices. Some will be horizontal in the water, some will be standing up but all will have fun and few will die. The ones who want to be good will.

Every one will be running around hoppily singing little PADI songs. If DIR gets much bigger they will come out with their own DIR class and really sell it. They might even buy the WKPP and put a picture of GI on the cover of the tec rec manual.

There may even be DIR resorts, DIR boats, cups, t-shirts. You DIR guys will be in DIR paradise. PADI DIR that is. Oh and they'll kneel on the bottom and nobody will care.

[O-ring]

WIth TDI, IMO, instructor choice is important. You can get all the way through the TDI Advanced Trimix level and have never touched a bottle of 80% or breathed air past 100'.

You can't look at just the standards..those are the minimum...good instructors cover the standards but teach you the right way to do things and keep in touch with current best practices.

GUE has higher standards...that we can all agree on I think..

[MikeFerrara]

O-ring once bubbled...

GUE has higher standards...that we can all agree on I think..

After PADI takes over that will be corrected.

[sheck33]

I guess the one thing i have to just get past is the fact that most divers just dont care to become proficient and safe. Most divers just dont care they destroy reefs. And the mainstream dive industry will continue to serve them with c-cards.....;-0

Mike: why do you still teach PADI classes?

[sheck33]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


After PADI takes over that will be corrected.

:wacko: :out: :D

[MikeFerrara]

sheck33 once bubbled...
I guess the one thing i have to just get past is the fact that most divers just dont care to become proficient and safe. Most divers just dont care they destroy reefs. And the mainstream dive industry will continue to serve them with c-cards.....;-0

Mike: why do you still teach PADI classes?

First off before I get to crazy here. There are some doing a good job it's just that they aren't the most successful and they're hard to find. Also, I don't know about the reefs but it's safe enough to keep the world happy.

Why am I still teaching. Well I haven't tought an OW water class since I raised the price to try to get well on all the pool time. Well that's not 100% accurate we had two small classes of referals through the winter. Believe it or not winter is usually our busy time in the pool. Now since I was stupid enough to think I could change the diving world and bet everything on it here are my choices...I can stick to my guns, loose everything and go down fighting and swearing I am right and everyone else is wrong...or...I can do a two for one special, cut the price to 2 bills and fill them classes, sell those masks and fins and pay the bills. Of course pool time gets cut in half also. It'll be like the rest in the area. In the process I will avoid spending my retirement in a cardboard box. Maybe have a second more expensive class for those who are interested. At least they would have a choice.

What do you think?

[sheck33]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


First off before I get to crazy here. There are some doing a good job it's just that they aren't the most successful and they're hard to find. Also, I don't know about the reefs but it's safe enough to keep the world happy.

Why am I still teaching. Well I haven't tought an OW water class since I raised the price to try to get well on all the pool time. Well that's not 100% accurate we had two small classes of referals through the winter. Believe it or not winter is usually our busy time in the pool. Now since I was stupid enough to think I could change the diving world and bet everything on it here are my choices...I can stick to my guns, loose everything and go down fighting and swearing I am right and everyone else is wrong...or...I can do a two for one special, cut the price to 2 bills and fill them classes, sell those masks and fins and pay the bills. Of course pool time gets cut in half also. It'll be like the rest in the area. In the process I will avoid spending my retirement in a cardboard box. Maybe have a second more expensive class for those who are interested. At least they would have a choice.

What do you think?

Not sure if you do this for a living but how about this?
Become a GUE instructor & teach parttime. And get away from the gear selling part of it. That way you will be dealing with divers that want to become proficient rather than the card collectors.

great plan huh :D

actually that is exactly my goal :out:
i want this to be fun, so therefore i would not want to teach fulltime or sell gear :)

[MikeFerrara]

sheck33 once bubbled...


Not sure if you do this for a living but how about this?
Become a GUE instructor & teach parttime. And get away from the gear selling part of it. That way you will be dealing with divers that want to become proficient rather than the card collectors.

great plan huh :D

actually that is exactly my goal :out:
i want this to be fun, so therefore i would not want to teach fulltime or sell gear :)

Well I hope it works out for you. It's too late for that here though. I do have a day job but I have every nickle I have and ever had in that stupid shop. There isn't any way in hell I could or even would chase Andrew around the country just to end up being able to teach DIRF's. That's the last thing I would do now is spend another umpteen gazillion dollars jumping through hoops to become an instructor for yet another agency. I have donated enough to diving. I should have just given it to a kenal or something.

[wrongkey]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


<snip>
or...I can do a two for one special, cut the price to 2 bills and fill them classes, sell those masks and fins and pay the bills. Of course pool time gets cut in half also. It'll be like the rest in the area. In the process I will avoid spending my retirement in a cardboard box. Maybe have a second more expensive class for those who are interested. At least they would have a choice.

What do you think?

Since you asked, I think it's a good idea, if you want to continue in the business. Most prospective divers looking at who to take the basic OW course from probably aren't going to fully appreciate the quality difference you are offering. I know I wouldn't have at that stage of the game. Because of the pervasiveness of the cheap, inadequate course, some ordinarily smart people are going to remain skeptical of what's going on at your shop, and whether they're really getting something all that better or just being chumps. I suspect that offering whiz bang class and also offering the deluxe version for those interested might actually spawn interest in the better class. It'll be clear they can get from you what they can get everywhere else, but also something better if they want it. People who want to get a card can, people whose goal is to really learn how to dive well can. You can always sell the first group a DIR-F class later if they change their mind.:)

[padiscubapro]

Doppler once bubbled...


Hi Tomcat:

First: I have to declare a conflict of interest... I am and I-T for TDI! However, JJ was also my cave instructor and I have a great deal of respect for him.

OK that out of the way, I will say that like most instructors at this level (trimix) my courses do not "follow" the outline put out by the agency. I think this is true of TDI, IANTD and any other agency. In my case, my courses meet what TDI says are minimum standards, but I encourage instructors and am encouraged by my "boss" to develop something that reflects the needs of local conditions and the experience gathered doing dives in those condidtions. My course outline for example, bears little resemblance to the one given me by TDI and my exams are my exams and are actually very different to TDIs. I teach Hogathian techniques and point out to students that some of the things suggested in TDI manuals will get them hurt if they try that **** in the Great Lakes. An example, the tables used in the manuals and the gas mixes make little sense. VPM and RGBM are now taught as standard here, a major deviation from TDI "law." For example teaching 80/20 is silly and I don't know any TDI instructors still teaching deep air.

The major difference from what I can see is that GUE has a strong brand and set course curriculum. There is less latitude for the instructor. This has good and bad points. By the way, I feel GUE materials are very good. There are some faults but it is impossible to produce course materials that are suitable for all conditions globally.)

One of the outcomes of GUE's policy is much tighter quality control. The cadre of instructors right now seem to be excellent divers and the majority are fine instructors. With a small organization, this is possible. I have my opinion of how management issues might be handled as GUE grows, but that's all about management style and MBA stuff which we can discuss in another thread if you wish.

As an agency TDI has suffered greatly in the past because of I-Ts and instructors who cut corners. I recently refused to certify a trimix instructor who had, in my opinion, fast-tracked his way from openwater instructor to deco instructor and frankly was a mess in the water. He went to another IT and got certified... Bad mark for TDI in my opinion. However, we are trying to clean that sort of bull**** up. It will take time and likely there will always be crappy instructors.

The question you may ask then is why do I teach for TDI... well apart from being a friend of the founders -- which does allow me some licence -- I find the support is there. Running a teaching business is easy with TDI backing me up and supplying materials.

What does all this mean? We go right back to the old adage interview instructors. Listen to what they say and ask for referrals. You are buying a very expensive course and committing a lot of time to it. Make sure the chemistry between you and your instructor and the scope of the course feel right to you.

Good luck

Doppler

I purposely stayed out of this discussion.. but now that everyone has brought in every major training agency but one its my turn.. I wount ever teach a PADI tech class, when the manual came out I pointed out several errors or poor practices and they just blew them off..

ANDI teaches classes all the way through trimix ccr with no real depth limits.. Its been around since 1988 and has NEVER had an insurance claim.. This is saying something since the best I have heard of other than ANDI was 4 years.. Why is this so.. its difficult to become an instructor at any level but technical is that much harder.. Every single rebreather and technical student gets questioneers as does 50% of rec ratings(we have thrown out instructors that now hold elite ratings with other agencies).. every instructor goes through the same training and becomming an I-T takes considerable time (plus there are only a few people who can make ITs) and not many are ever made.. To this date ANDI has only made 110 ITS (I know my number is higher - I chose it), ANDI's ITs read like a whos who in diving many have gone on to start their own agencies or run others..

We follow a strict set of procedures and curriculum and the buddy system is very important for mission planning (but we also have solo instruction for those that require it), there is no strict set of rules how gear must be configured but an overall set of guidleines and what is the minimum gear required, local conditions prevail.


GUE never impresse me.. too rigid, and the training accident(instructor skill prevented a fatality) they had a while back with a diver otoxing probably wouldn't have happend with an ANDI program (the procedures that were followed , allowed it )If it happend it would have been clear that the instructor violated established procedures and would require action.

The only GUE instructor that I know didn't impress me with his skills, but I'll learn more in the near future.. I'll be working with a GUE instructor (tech 2, cave ect..trained by jj)who is unhappy with the agency and is crossing(he has to take the classes like everyone else) to ANDI.

I still teach classes and certify TDI when requested (not that many though) since ANDI standards meet or exceed all TDI standards.

[metridium]

padiscubapro wrote...
GUE never impresse me.. too rigid, and the training accident(instructor skill prevented a fatality) they had a while back with a diver otoxing... Hadn't heard about that. Have any more info?

[O-ring]

metridium once bubbled...
Hadn't heard about that. Have any more info?

He's probably talking about that student that toxed in the Tech 1 class in Croatia last year...there was a post on quest or techdiver or somewhere about it..

[metridium]

O-ring wrote...
He's probably talking about that student that toxed in the Tech 1 class in Croatia last year...there was a post on quest or techdiver or somewhere about it.. I think MHK referred to that in a recent post. The guy failed to analyze the mix that he himself had filled?

[O-ring]

metridium once bubbled...
I think MHK referred to that in a recent post. The guy failed to analyze the mix that he himself had filled?
I am sure someone will hammer me if I am wrong, but as I remember it, he accidentally double filled o2 instead of He and was breathing roughly 50% at 100' or something...he didn't analyze it. Georgitsis held the reg in his mouth through a couple seizures and got him to the surface.

[padiscubapro]

O-ring once bubbled...

I am sure someone will hammer me if I am wrong, but as I remember it, he accidentally double filled o2 instead of He and was breathing roughly 50% at 100' or something...he didn't analyze it. Georgitsis held the reg in his mouth through a couple seizures and got him to the surface.

Yup... the instructor saved the guys ass.. If I allowed a diver to dive a mix without analyzing it it would be my butt.. It doesn't matter whoo mixes it and how many times its been done by the blender.. every single cylinder gets analyzed and It must be verified by the instructor (by watching or by the gas mix log which better have the exact mix listed).. errors do happen..especially when lots of cylinders are being mixed

[MikeFerrara]

Of course I don't know what happened but if a Tech 1 student toxed on gas he mixed and didn't analyze, it seems to me that the incedent has some pretty far reaching implications.

[O-ring]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Of course I don't know what happened but if a Tech 1 student toxed on gas he mixed and didn't analyze, it seems to me that the incedent has some pretty far reaching implications.
The missing piece of info here, at least as I remember it, was that this particular student was the owner of the shop that was hosting the tech 1. So he was mixing the gas for a class he was hosting..

[MikeFerrara]

O-ring once bubbled...

The missing piece of info here, at least as I remember it, was that this particular student was the owner of the shop that was hosting the tech 1. So he was mixing the gas for a class he was hosting..

That certainly make it easier to understand how the instructor could be lulled into trusting the guy. It does show that hearing a thing done isn't the same as seeing it done.

[O-ring]

In Croatia, the same fitting is used for o2 and He... The diver was the owner of the shop and he filled the tanks himself and marked them as analyzed (they apparently weren't). Diver toxed and tanks were analyzed later and found to contain 50.1% o2 - he initially toxed at 36m.

[ericfine50]

O-ring,

I also heard that during the boat ride out to the site, it was found that not all the gas was analyzed at the dock and AG had them do it again, seems the diver that toxed analyzed a deco bottle instead of the backgas and no one noticed.

Eric

[MikeFerrara]

ericfine50 once bubbled...
O-ring,

I also heard that during the boat ride out to the site, it was found that not all the gas was analyzed at the dock and AG had them do it again, seems the diver that toxed analyzed a deco bottle instead of the backgas and no one noticed.

Eric

If that's true it's very sloppy.

[AquaTec]

db8us once bubbled...


First, GUE is not giving away Instructor-cards. I know at least one TDI-Instructor personally who has got his card without beeing a recreational instructor and without any formal "training", just because he was "famous".

Second, there are no shortcuts. I was a swimmer when i was young and i asked my GUE-instructor if i can skip the swimming, cause it was damned cold and raining and there was only a cold pool.
She said: if you were a swimmer in the past, go and hurry, you should be out of the water fast !

In both TDI and some IANTD classes it was ok to knee on the ground and do drills like stage-clipping. In both GUE courses it was mandatory to do it all perfect neutral and horizontal.

Also in the equipment part TDI just accepted everything, at Billy Deans we were at least talking about it, GUE went over every single piece.

Also TDI did not care about any buddy-awareness, IANTD Germany neither, but Billy Deans has and GUE strongly focused on that.

Also the spent "in-water" time was MUCH more in the GUE courses.

Billy Deans was equally good as Tamara when it came to general things. Once he kicked a guy out for always beeing late on the dock, because he said that this was the wrong attitude.

One specific deatil from the IANTD course.
We had to do an exam and when calculating the dive you came out with a CNS% of 103 when decoing on O2.
The "right" solution was to use EAN80 instead, since this was the prefferd gas for IANTD anyway.
I told Billy i think that is stupid since the 100% can not be kept anyway on long dives and that the CNS% was a pure statistical thing.
He said it was for the theory and the next day we decoed on pure O2, surface-supplied from the boat.

Today i can not keep the CNS under 100% on most of my dives anyway...


Michael


First I want to say this is the best thread i have ever seen on this board where DIR and the rest of the world are discussing their differences. how nice to learn some interesting stuff.

I would say that TDI is not in the habit of giving away cards either. if someone famouse got a card, i am sure it was earned. and it would not mean that it holds true for the general public. I wonder if the top dogs in GUE/DIR/WKKP all went through all the courses or did they get cards based on experience......we are obviously talking about the general population here and not the rare exceptions.

Guess what TDI doesn't even require swimming [on the surface], IANTD does. the swimming portion is to establish physical fittness and not much else. TDI will do it in other ways.

the kneeling on the ground is allowed [at the instructors discretion] on the first dive where bottles and tank shut downs take place say in an Advanced Nitrox/ Deco Prosedure course to get them used to how it works. the rest of the dives it is to be done in open water while hovering motionless in the water this last part is mandatory prior to passing the course. Gas shut downs and tank removal plus several other skills are performed on every dive, again hovering perfectly.

I will admit I have seen an instructor in the tropics not require his students to hover horizontal while doing the drills, I questioned him on this and he stated that TDI does not require you to complete the entire dive in a horizontal position and that there was nothing wrong with being vertical in the water say while comming up a deep wall as we where the students where required to perform the skills while hovering perfectly though. this mad since to me as I too don't believe that you need to do the whole dive horizontal as GUE suggests/requires

As for gear I would not say that TDI would ascept everything, it must be appropriat for the diving you are doing and in good condition ......etc...... but TDI does have an open mind to gear selection and placement.....heck they even ascept the DIR way.
most instructors will strongly influance their students on what works best for the type of diving they are doing. TDI is much more open minded on this subject...within reason.

I personaly spend the first meeting with my classes consintrating primarily on gear selection, configuration etc. everybody brings all their gear to class and i go over each peice of gear with them and make suggestions as required...i don't however require everybody to be exactly the same.
this is what i was taught by my instructor, and i think a lot of the instructors spend good quality time on the students gear

Buddies, this is a tuffer one to comment on as I think it is varied amungs different instructors and to different degrees depending on the dive. I think GUE is overdependent on their buddy, whereas TDI teaches a team approch yet completly self suffeciant....there is a fine line to walk and I have seen instructors on both sides of the fence.

I personaly like a three man team for very deep dives mainly in the event of gas loss emergencies.

I can't comment on in water time, i don't know what you guys spend in the water. I would say that there is ample time in the water for skill development, practice, and evaluation. and the time in the water deffinetly varies with different classes as needed.

As for attitude...welll lets not even go there, I think to each their own as to what they are willing to accept etc.

I don't quite understand the last part except to say that TDI does not teach standardized gasses...more a best mix gas plan for the dive you are going to do. this may include 80% or 100%
It is not really a boyance thing as much as getting onto a high Po2 earlier and longer, i would say because the travel/ intermediate deco gas is usauly switched to at about 100 feet. so it is more a switch sooner. 100% is great too it is just not the only choice or mandatory. 80% is deffinetly better on that old CNS clock isn't it.

Lastly i totaly agree that a DIRF class will put out a much better diver in regards to skills than a PADI open water class. but as allready been stated [and i totaly agree] the customer has to want that first, diving is easy, not very difficult or dangerouse for the recreational diver, who cares if he is vertical in the water, only last 15 minutes at 60 feet etc. he is only thinking about his cocktails and luau he has next on the agenda.

DIRF is teaching what i would consider technical diving skills to begginner divers....that is great......it just won't serve the masses


just a couple of questions for you now.

If i was a non diver, never been in the water, could i go take a GUE course and get a certification to go diving in Palau or Mexico or anywhere.?

Do they teach all the basic skills require to know for someone who has never been on scuba before?

I was talking to a friend who is going to take the DIRF course next month [he is a single tank diver] and he said one of the required skills was that he had to do tank shut downs. I said but you are only using a single tank why perform this task of shutting off your only supply of air. he said in case he ever gets doubles he will know how to do this. I am wondering if this is standard training to shut off your only gas supply just incase you decide to become a technical diver some day [well i should say a double tank diver]? and is this then adiquate training to become a double tank diver performing gas shut downs?

Again it has been good chatting with you in such a sival manner, I am learning a lot about the differences in styles

[ElectricZombie]

Some single tank divers will jump in without having turned their air on. They will get a few breaths from the gas that remains in the hoses, then nothing. By this time, they have already sank a signifigant number of feet. (Especially the average diver who is WAY overweighted.) Their reg is now not functioning and they immediately panic instead of first reaching back to check the valve. They panic, hold their breath and shoot for the surface. Possible lung rupture/AGE, not good. I've seen people do this several times, thankfully no injury.

I think having them do this drill has some real value. It seems like a good composure exercise too.

I also don't think that the DIR-F class is teaching technical diving skills.

I'm taking the DIR-F class next month as well, and will be able to see firsthand what GUE training is all about.

[sheck33]

AquaTec once bubbled...



just a couple of questions for you now.

If i was a non diver, never been in the water, could i go take a GUE course and get a certification to go diving in Palau or Mexico or anywhere.?

Do they teach all the basic skills require to know for someone who has never been on scuba before?

I was talking to a friend who is going to take the DIRF course next month [he is a single tank diver] and he said one of the required skills was that he had to do tank shut downs. I said but you are only using a single tank why perform this task of shutting off your only supply of air. he said in case he ever gets doubles he will know how to do this. I am wondering if this is standard training to shut off your only gas supply just incase you decide to become a technical diver some day [well i should say a double tank diver]? and is this then adiquate training to become a double tank diver performing gas shut downs?

Again it has been good chatting with you in such a sival manner, I am learning a lot about the differences in styles

I know the questions are not directed at me but like to try to answer them anyway.

As of yet GUE doesnt have on open water class. What they do here in Kent however is teach SDI open water the GUE way so to speak. So in a sense yes you can get GUE trained being a beginning diver that has never been in the water even though you will get an SDI certification. Gue guys please correct me if i am wrong.

I will be re taking DIRF next month as well. I can see why doing a valve shutdown on a single tank might be useful even though the whole shutdown drill is really meant for doubles. Suppose you have a O-ring blow, it would be nice to be able to shut down the loudly escaping bubbles behind your head. To get the most out of all excercises i'd personally recommend diving doubles.

doing valve shutdowns is only part of getting comfortable diving doubles though. I have come to th epoint where i prefer doubles over a single tank even though doubles are heeavyyyyy

:)

the class will be fun and useful i'm sure:D

[ElectricZombie]

AquaTec once bubbled...
Do they teach all the basic skills require to know for someone who has never been on scuba before?


DIR-F requires a minumum of OW certification. It's not intended to teach people to dive. GUE will be coming out with it's own OW program later.

[Bob Sherwood]

One of the biggest differences, is that GUE is not really interested in training the masses. That is why the requirements
( i.e. equipment/gases/physical fitness/ philosophy/ect) are as strict as they are. While there are certainly, and always will be differences of opinions, other agencies seem to be more interested in the profit side of training. ( more $ driven )
GUE instructors are encouraged to weed out unlikely candidates before and during the training process. GUE does not believe that diving is for everyone and that anyone can do any type of diving.
I can not speak for other instructors, but I personally am not out to convert anyone to our philosophy. There are plenty of other Tec instructors out there from various agencies that will be happy to train the masses, (always has been, always will be). Believe me, there are many more people out there that want GUE training than the current GUE instructors can teach. GUE is here to offer those that see the value in what we are currently offering or have not been satisfied with what they have gotten elsewhere and are searching/or are open minded to other options.
Some people might think this is arrogant or elitist.
Perception of reality and reality are often very different. We simply want to cater to people that are already interested in what we have to offer. Some will look at what GUE offers and feel that they have found what they were seeking, others may participate in GUE courses and feel that they did not find what the were seeking.(everyone's goals are not the same)
I support everyone's right to choose/make their own decisions regarding their path of education and experience, hoping that they have gained enough knowledge to make the best choice for themselves.
In any case I think the only true way to compare what each agency teaches is to participate in the courses they offer. After all if it is knowledge that you are seeking, you can always learn from everyone you encounter.
the sharing of information between divers regardless of agency affiliation only makes all of us better. Best to all, thanks, Bob

[tomcat]

Spent some time chatting with an instructor who has taken both TDI and GUE courses.

He mentioned that one big difference between GUE and TDI is that you will learn about on-the-fly deco in a GUE tech course while TDI pretty much sticks to predetermined tables.

Is this correct or did I understand him wrongly?

Seems like a pretty big advantage to me given that any number of things can defer from dive plan and cause you to require an alteration to your dive profile (e.g. over stay, under stay at planned depth, lost gas, etc.)

[AquaTec]

Bob Sherwood once bubbled...
One of the biggest differences, is that GUE is not really interested in training the masses. That is why the requirements
( i.e. equipment/gases/physical fitness/ philosophy/ect) are as strict as they are. While there are certainly, and always will be differences of opinions, other agencies seem to be more interested in the profit side of training. ( more $ driven )
GUE instructors are encouraged to weed out unlikely candidates before and during the training process. GUE does not believe that diving is for everyone and that anyone can do any type of diving.
I can not speak for other instructors, but I personally am not out to convert anyone to our philosophy. There are plenty of other Tec instructors out there from various agencies that will be happy to train the masses, (always has been, always will be). Believe me, there are many more people out there that want GUE training than the current GUE instructors can teach. GUE is here to offer those that see the value in what we are currently offering or have not been satisfied with what they have gotten elsewhere and are searching/or are open minded to other options.
Some people might think this is arrogant or elitist.
Perception of reality and reality are often very different. We simply want to cater to people that are already interested in what we have to offer. Some will look at what GUE offers and feel that they have found what they were seeking, others may participate in GUE courses and feel that they did not find what the were seeking.(everyone's goals are not the same)
I support everyone's right to choose/make their own decisions regarding their path of education and experience, hoping that they have gained enough knowledge to make the best choice for themselves.
In any case I think the only true way to compare what each agency teaches is to participate in the courses they offer. After all if it is knowledge that you are seeking, you can always learn from everyone you encounter.
the sharing of information between divers regardless of agency affiliation only makes all of us better. Best to all, thanks, Bob

THANK good information, and I like the aproach that you say GUE is using to teach divers.


We simply want to cater to people that are already interested in what we have to offer. Some will look at what GUE offers and feel that they have found what they were seeking, others may participate in GUE courses and feel that they did not find what the were seeking.(everyone's goals are not the same)

OK I am a technical diver.....I am looking for something more.
what does GUE offer that I haven't already got from the other agencies that would convence me to take one of their courses.

Basicly If i where to look for what GUE offers what would i find....that is different...not necessarily better or worse but different. [i am not trying to troll i am sincerely interested]

[Bob Sherwood]

that you will learn about on-the-fly deco in a GUE tech course while TDI pretty much sticks to predetermined tables.

Is this correct or did I understand him wrongly?

Seems like a pretty big advantage to me given that any number of things can defer from dive plan and cause you to require an alteration to your dive profile (e.g. over stay, under stay at planned depth, lost gas, etc.) [/B][/QUOTE]

It is correct that GUE teaches students how to figure decompression on the fly. This is one of the major advantages to utilizing standard gases instead of the best mix formulas taught by other instructors. The method however requires adherence to our choices of gases and an understanding of decompression modeling that is taught. best, bob

[Bob Sherwood]

THANK good information, and I like the aproach that you say GUE is using to teach divers.
OK I am a technical diver.....I am looking for something more.
what does GUE offer that I haven't already got from the other agencies that would convence me to take one of their courses.
Basicly If i where to look for what GUE offers what would i find....that is different...not necessarily better or worse but different. [i am not trying to troll i am sincerely interested] [/B][/QUOTE]

AquaTec
I checked out your webpage, and while everyone's motivation is different, what I would say to you is the following:
First, please remember that I am not trying to convince anyone to take a GUE course. I think that you should feel that there is something to gain from any course or you should NOT take it.
Second, I don't know what you did or didn't get in your prior training, therefore I'm not sure what you are looking for. A personal interview would be the best first step. that being said:
From your page I get the feeling that you're education oriented and enjoy taking/teaching courses. You have taken courses from PADI, IANTD and TDI, and possibly others. One from GUE might be in order<G>
the majority of the GUE instructors utilize video feedback in the training and evaluation process. It is a very valuable tool and that alone is usually worth the price of admission to a course.
I might be inclined to join a class purely out of a quest for knowledge of what other agencies/instructors are offering. Consider it part of your continuing education.
Most instructors are never evaluated after they are certified as instructors. This undermines the agencies ability to have any kind of hands on quality control of their key people, and also is an injustice to the instructor.
I'd suggest a phone call to a perspective instructor to better evaluate what the benefits to you might be. Check out the GUE webpage under instructor database for someone close to you. if you like, you can always call me. Best, Bob

[AquaTec]

Bob
Your comments are interesting, the reading between the lines is the most interesting part.
you are sivel though.

in 30 years of diving, the courses have stacked up. but what is hard to put down on the paper is the real life experience that comes with years of diving, believe me it is not just about taking courses.


Most instructors are never evaluated after they are certified as instructors. This undermines the agencies ability to have any kind of hands on quality control of their key people, and also is an injustice to the instructor

My experience with becoming an instructor has been just the opposite. with TDI the evaluation process for IT was a week long.
and for the Advanced Trimix, I had to go to the Caymans and spend a week being evaluated as well. this is one good reason to continue taking courses and being evaluated. to maintain a performance level capable of passing the current days evaluation process, maintain the most current knowledge, and to demenstrate that to your peers/supperiors and allow yourself to be shown how to improve, or where you need to update your knowledge base......this is one reason i was interested in the DIRF, I general take some sort of course every couple of years.

It is true that in the industry some instructor levels are able to be crossed over to other agencies, that may or may not be a flaw but the instructor did have to be evaluated at some point durring each level of advancement. I am currently being asked to cross over to the PADI Tech Rec Instructor program, there is an evaluation process that I would have to go through, but it is still just a cross over. [the problem for me is I am not convinced I would ever want to teach a PADI Tech Rec Course]

I would say that the instructor who has been an instructor for a while is probably more they type you reffer to as that person has not been evaluated by his peers or superiors since he recieved his last instructors rating.

in the post to me and the one above you pointed out the only two major differences i can see between GUE and other tech agencies. other than the Ra Ra I spoke of before which is missing from pretty well all the other agencies.

Deco on the fly, which is really pretty simply when you dive the same mix everytime it is really just memorization and some simple math.

The video feed back is a great thing, I lived in a ski resort for the last 13 years and many of their programs provide video feedback.
I know it has improved my skiing to watch and be told what i am doing wrong and how to improve it.

as for me looking for something more I was being hypothetical so as to continue our conversation and discuss further the differences in agencies. I haven't really seen the "You will learn this idea and in this manner" posative sales pitch that is was looking for.

I am a believer that GUE, TDI, and IANTD are all no better or no worse than each other they are just differnt from one another. except that many of the GUE sales tools are negative selling techniques [this does not reflect on you Bob]
I have been looking for a positive selling technique to come out of this conversation form someone...the best I got was from Bob a neutraul selling technique.

Negative sales technique = choose us because the other guys are so bad you have no choice, based soley on competition and how they are a poor choice without really mentioning your own products benifits, only that it's better by default.

Positive sales technique = chosse our product because our product will perform as described, be of good value, and will last. generaly no mention of the compatetion, based soley on the merits of your product

Neutraul sales technique = choose our product if you want to, if you don't want to that is ok, we'll be fine without you. obviously the weekest sales technique, generaly used by companies who feel they have the market share and customers will come and go based on national averages etc. think large corperations vs the little guy.

question are the GUE instructors evaluated periodicly after they become instructors. and how are they evaluated, with such a small network it would be easy to use the good old boy method of evaluation as they must all know each other quite well.

this has made for interesting conversation though hasn't it

[GDI]

:doctor:
You know I haven't been on the board for some time now and it is nice to know that some things never change. I am referring to the angency ramblings as to who is better. What I would suggest for you to do is to find a instructor that you would feel comfortable with. Ask around there must be some other divers you know in your area. If you can find a instructor who can teach for both agencies, chances are he will combine the philosophy of both TDI and GUE. Regardless of what training we take or what agency we use, we all start off on a standard and over time we will make adjustments that suit us as personal consideration

[tomcat]

that's certainly good advice. however, from what i have been hearing, on top of having a good instructor, the course content and philosophy matters as well.

tdi may be open to adapting training/configurations/philosophies from other agencies. i don't think gue is as flexible in this regard. so this already is a major choice and decision point.

also, from what i understand, an instructor teaching gue is not likely to require combining stuff from other agencies, because of the strict philosophies that gue adheres to (e.g. must have long hose, no diving solo, final deco on 100%).

as for suiting personal considerations, my personal impression of gue is that there is no such thing. here's what happenned to me over the weekend:

i had just gotten a bp/harness setup. not wanting to hang the octopus in the triangle area cos it would add drag, i decided to have it under my chin instead. so i did the usual by attaching a bungee necklace around the mouth piece. the bungee was fairly tight (maybe i have a big head! :P) so that i could reach it without using my hands. to make it easier to put on and take off, i altered the attachment method slightly so that instead of having the free ends sticking under the cable tie at the mouth piece, i now had the free ends at the back of my neck, joined by a small quick release clip. at the moment they are just tied down, but if this works out, the ends will be glued down so that they won't come off.

instructor no.1 (DIR-F instructor, was orginally a TDI instructor) sees it and asks me why. i told him why and he went "well.....". ok, so that wasn't straightforward "no you can't do it that way" yet, but then i again i wasn't taking a course from him (yet) and wasn't even diving DIR in the first place. but i could sense that a "no, do it the standard way" would be forthcoming at some point or other.

instructor no.2 (just did DIR-F course, completed most of the TDI courses) sees it and also asks me why. i told him why and he went "so that defeats the purpose of diving with standard equipment". i explained that this was just a friggin small thing that is not a failure point, serves a real purpose to me (prevents me from snapping my ears on every other dive) and will not be used by anyone other than me. heck, if you don't specifically look behind my head while i'm wearing it, you won't even know it's there. he didn't buy that and gave me some example about why it is that hoses all come from the right and no one has it coming from the left, blah blah blah.

so to summarise, i think that as far as "mood" goes, the gue seems quite distinct from the rest. what i have described above, is not a rant. just my impression of how complete the "assimilation" is : ). i know gue has reasons and explanations for all the recommendations/requirements that they have. but i also know that you can create logical sounding and reasonable explanations for just about anything under the sun as well (i am a consultant by profession and i do this on a daily basis :P). instructor no.2 once told me that i should keep an open mind when trying to understand gue. not sure if i have done that 100% but at the moment, it seems to me that minds are more closed at the other end of the stick.

despite having said all this, i think i'll take the gue courses anyway. they seem to involve greater knowledge about the subject and cover more of the stuff that i'm interested in (e.g. on-the-fly deco, trimix at an entry level course).

resistance is futile. assimilation will be complete.

[Braunbehrens]

AquaTec once bubbled...


try this out start your decent, at about 30 feet let all the air out of your bcd and disconect it, check your air pressure, etc. and in this time about one minute you will probably find yourself descending at about 100 feet per minute. now you are at about 90 feet start inflating your drysuit to slow you down and stop your descent, this will probably take place at about 140 feet. hopefully you are not breathing the wrong nitrox mix.


Sounds like your rig is not balanced. One of the things you learn in a GUE class is to balance your rig. Since you only need to be neutral at 10 ft with all tanks empty, you really should not be more than about 10 - 15 pounds negative at the start of the dive. If you are diving Helium then even less. You should have ditchable weight that allows you to still do stops if you absolutely need to drop something.

This is all elementary stuff, but every single person in my GUE classes had too much lead, including me.

The problem with TDI etc. is that you don't get a consistent message. The fact that they do NOT tell you "no, this is a dumb way to dive, this other way is better" is exactly why TDI instruction is largely a waste of time.

I learned more in my first GUE class then in all other classes combined.

As far as cost, if you think that deciding which training to get based on how much it costs makes sense, then I would suggest switching to golf.

[Braunbehrens]

tomcat once bubbled...
so i did the usual by attaching a bungee necklace around the mouth piece. the bungee was fairly tight (maybe i have a big head! :P) so that i could reach it without using my hands. to make it easier to put on and take off, i altered the attachment method slightly so that instead of having the free ends sticking under the cable tie at the mouth piece, i now had the free ends at the back of my neck, joined by a small quick release clip.

instructor no.1 (DIR-F instructor, was orginally a TDI instructor) sees it and asks me why.

Tomcat, there is a reason why the DIR way is specific. One of the tenents of DIR is KISS (keep it simple stupid) and another is "take only what you need".

Now ask yourself, do you need that clip? Couldn't you simply make the bungee longer?

You say that it is not a failure point, but that isn't true. Bungees basically don't fail, but clips do. If it's a plastic clip, it's possible that a tank may land on it one day, while you are on the other end of the boat. This may well give the clip a stress fracture, which might cause it to break later with almost no provocation.

Let's say now that your buddy is out of gas, and you donate your primary. You go for your backup, but the clip broke and now it's not there.

I was practicing once with one of my DIR buddies for a class. I noticed that his necklace reg was not where it was supposed to be, he had forgotten to put it on and it was stuck behind his head!

Needless to say, I immediately signaled him that I'm out of air, and he of course donated his primary.

Let's just say that I had a good laugh before giving it back to him, and he's never going to forget to put on his necklace reg again. You should have seen the look on his face.

Anyway, I'm just telling you this story because it illustrates how important that reg is.

I'll tell you one more anecdote. I was diving off my boat with 3 other guys. One of them became seasick, and couldn't dive. My gear had a problem, and I was about to call the dive, when he told me I should just dive his rig. I did, and it felt no different than mine. Everything was in the same place, and worked the same way.

There is something to be said for a uniform system. If any part fails to perform, it will be quickly found out and changed. If everyone just does any old thing, you'll find out too if something doesn't work. However, it might well be at 300 ft.

Just my opinion of course, everybody is free to do as they wish.

Lastly, a good instructor should be able to patiently explain why something is or isn't a good idea. If anyone gives you too much attitude, be they GUE, TDI or whatever, I suggest finding someone else. There are plenty. I was very happy with my instructor, Andrew Georgitsis.

[MikeFerrara]

A couple of points...

If your neutral at 10 or 20 ft in a wet suit, with no air in the wing and a near empty tank, how exactly do you control your ascent from there to the surface? I think you need to be neutral nearer the surface so the most important part of your ascent can be controlled.

I have heard lots of ggod things about Andrew Georgitsis as an instructor. I'll bet he tought a great class before there was a GUE.

As to equipment selection and configuration. I can't speak for TDI but IANTD tries to teach the student how to evaluate an equipment configuration. Reference the IANTD "Technical Diver Encyclopedia", the chapter on this is very detailed. They give examples of several configurations including JJ's. I can't speak for the way some instructors implement the philosophy though.

In the case of GUE, they have done the evaluation for you while IANTD tries to teach you how to do it. The GUE/WKPP configuration is one that works. There are others but you may not learn how to know them when you see them. As they say "give one a fish, feed them for a day. Teach one to fish and feed them for life".

Sometimes it can really be funny. A while back I tried the reel/spool on the butt d-ring. I didn't like it. I had people give me all sorts of advice on how to learn to like it. I didn't like it so I just stopped doing it. Apparantly, GI has recently said he doesn't do that any more and I even think he said he removed the butt ring. All of a sudden divers who once insisted this was the way are moving their reels.

[MikeFerrara]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


Lastly, a good instructor should be able to patiently explain why something is or isn't a good idea.

NO. A good instructor should be able to explain how to evaluate for yourself if something is or isn't good. You may find yourself away from the instructor and the keyboard some day and need to make a decission on your own. As in all things it's learning the process that's most important, IMO.

[padiscubapro]

I have to agree with mike,

If you are neutral at 10ft you can't control the most important part of the ascent.. you must be neutral at or near the surface holding a normal breath.. this will allow you to stop at any depth and sink if necessary..

at worse case you should be taking at least 1 minute to go the last 10 feet.. personally I usually take 2 or 3 minutes, then continue a high fo2 on the surface for at least 5 minutes before attempting to climb a ladder or some other type of stressful action..

[AzAtty]

I thought about restraining myself, but the bait is far too tempting. Applying some of the evaluative skills they teach you in the GUE class, let's discuss the situation (I hope I'm not sounding harsh or critical here):

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
I was practicing once with one of my DIR buddies for a class. I noticed that his necklace reg was not where it was supposed to be, he had forgotten to put it on and it was stuck behind his head!
1. Why did this problem occur in the first place?

2. Which member of the dive team dropped the ball?

3. Why didn't anyone notice on the surface that the diver did not have his backup donned?

4. If the diver's buddy did notice that his team member had not donned his backup, why did the buddy allow the team member to get into the water in that condition?


Braunbehrens once bubbled...
...I immediately signaled him that I'm out of air, and he of course donated his primary. Let's just say that I had a good laugh before giving it back to him...
1. Is having a "good laugh" at a team member's expense because someone failed to follow the team concept at the surface DIR?

2. Did the decision to signal an out-of-air drill knowing that one team member did not have his backup in place cause a potential safety issue or emergency under the circumstances?

3. Was teaching method employed in this case appropriate to achieving the goal of reminding a team member to be more careful in donning equipment?

4. What methods other than depriving a team member of a primary air source while underwater could have demonstrated the person's oversight in donning equipment?

Regardless of how many classes one takes, or from whom one takes those classes, a diver's judgment is ultimately the most important skill s/he can develop.

[Braunbehrens]

Seems my messages have created a lot of controversy.

First, the wetsuit issue. I'm talking drysuit diving, and if you are neutral at 10 ft with empty tanks, then you can make a slow ascent to the surface from there. Most tech diving is done in a drysuit if done properly.

Also, please remember that if you are at 10 ft with empty tanks, it means the excrement has hit the rotating blades in a big way. Under any normal circumstances you should have enough gas left in your tanks for you and your buddy to do an ascent, and probably much more than that (like another 1/3rd of your gas supply). If an extaordinary situation has occured, and you still need to do a very slow ascent for the last 10 feet, just dive the suit a little tight for those couple minutes.

I'm pretty sure you'd be ok in a wetsuit as well, but I haven't tried it. In a GUE class you will learn to be horizontal in the water, and if you are neutral at 10 feet, then it's not that big of a deal to simply use your fins to give a little downward thrust when you are ascending those last 10 ft. This will certainly assist you in making a slow ascent for those last few feet. If there are any doubts about it, then I suggest you practice this skill.

Mike, evaluating an equipment configuration and deciding if it's going to work or not is a pretty complicated thing to do. With everybody diving something different, and people changing stuff all the time, it becomes very hard to weed out the stuff that could get you in trouble. DIR doesn't mean you can't think for yourself, it just means that when you do, you better be able to back it up.

The comment about reel placement is a perfect example. A minor change was made because it was found that one way worked better than another.

AzAtty,

You are right that team members should check each other out and make sure all is right. Sometimes, when the boat is rocking a lot we end up doing this at 20 ft and combining it with a bubble check and OOA drill.

These guys I'm diving with are all accomplished divers, diving in rough conditions and most of them are tech divers. Not being able to get to your air supply for a few seconds is not something that will send them into a panic. If it is, I'd rather find out about it right away.

Just think, what if your necklace breaks? Are you going to die because OHMYGOD you can't get to your backup immediately? I was right in front of him the whole time with his primary in my hand, he was in no danger whatsoever. If you take a GUE class you will have the confidence in the water to know that this kind of thing is not a big deal.

As far as having a good laugh at his expense, that was not the point, just a fringe benefit. When you take a GUE class, you will soon learn that you are responsible for having all your gear where it goes, and having it tidy.

Whenever it is not, you will find that it mysteriously will get tangled in something. For example, if you fail to clip off your primary, you may find yourself being dragged down by it. This will probably coincide with another failure. This is a way to teach you what can and will happen if you don't have your gear properly stowed.

In my experience, "telling" someone about something is a much less effective tool than demonstrating to them how they are puttine their aßß in sling and letting them squirm for a few seconds. I can't speak for anyone else, but if I felt I couldn't handle this kind of thing, I'd pick another sport. If I didn't feel comfortable in the water, I wouldn't do any technical diving.

Remember that this was a training dive. You are actually expecting failures.

I'll be happy to answer any other questions.

[Uncle Pug]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
You say that it is not a failure point, but that isn't true. Bungees basically don't fail, but clips do. If it's a plastic clip, it's possible that a tank may land on it one day, while you are on the other end of the boat. This may well give the clip a stress fracture, which might cause it to break later with almost no provocation.


Braunbehrens once bubbled...
Just think, what if your necklace breaks? Are you going to die because OHMYGOD you can't get to your backup immediately?
Paul... I haven't been following this thread... so forgive me if I have missed something... but this seems inconsistent.

BTW... if a tank falling on TC's little plastic clip breaks it what do you think the falling tank is going to do to the plastic second stage the necklace is attached to? Perhaps the DIR diver would stow is rig so that couldn't happen in the first place.

[boomx5]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
As to equipment selection and configuration. I can't speak for TDI but IANTD tries to teach the student how to evaluate an equipment configuration. Reference the IANTD "Technical Diver Encyclopedia", the chapter on this is very detailed. They give examples of several configurations including JJ's. I can't speak for the way some instructors implement the philosophy though.


When Mike and Tamara did our DIR-F class not only did they show us how to do it, but they showed us the reason for doing it. They did show us to some extent how to evaluate gear selection and gear setup, and how to recognize potential problems before they arise.

[padiscubapro]

Braunbehrens,
If you are neutral @10 fsw in a shell type suit you be ok on ascent assuming you are still venting, but there are lots of other drysuits out there.. if you do this with a neoprene suit you'll be a cork by the time you hit the surface. due to the cost neprem`ne

The goal is not to be neutral with 1/3 your gas, if there is no problem the stress level is low, the big issue if you are having trouble with some situation that causes you gas to get low, this is another stressor that can potentially increase the likelyhood of an accident.

The times when there IS a problem is what should be planned for, if you don't get low gas thats great! If you are neutral (for 1/3)you ar now also positive(if its only slight you can probably control yourself) and the other diver is too positive you wount be able to hold him/her down and there goes your bddy system.

[MikeFerrara]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...

Mike, evaluating an equipment configuration and deciding if it's going to work or not is a pretty complicated thing to do. With everybody diving something different, and people changing stuff all the time, it becomes very hard to weed out the stuff that could get you in trouble. DIR doesn't mean you can't think for yourself, it just means that when you do, you better be able to back it up.

For the record and for the most part I agree. You certainly need a sound starting point and it might be best not to invent it yourself.


The comment about reel placement is a perfect example. A minor change was made because it was found that one way worked better than another.



Not to nit pick but I decided the other way worked better (for me)a long time ago. Others have just taken some one elses word for it both times. Yes, it's a little thing but a good example. My rig looks pretty much like I just stepped out of a GUE class (or a Halcyon advertisement) and that's because I've found the vast majority of the system works just fine without reinventing the weel. Still, the philosophical issues are fun to discuss.

[Braunbehrens]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...



Paul... I haven't been following this thread... so forgive me if I have missed something... but this seems inconsistent.

BTW... if a tank falling on TC's little plastic clip breaks it what do you think the falling tank is going to do to the plastic second stage the necklace is attached to? Perhaps the DIR diver would stow is rig so that couldn't happen in the first place.

Regarding your first point.

If you are donating the primary in a real failure situation, and then can't locate the backup you should still be ok, but it's going to be quite stressful. Better to avoid this by having your necklace attached in a way to minimize failures.

If a tank falls on your reg and damages it so that it will fail without provocation, you go to the backup. Yes, we all stow our gear properly, but you never know what happens on the other end of the boat.

You may be confusing a training situation with a real emergency. In the case of my little devious OOA drill there was no real emergency.

I don't think it's inconsistent, but I can see how it might appear that way at first glance.

In any case, even having your necklace not there when you go for it should not cause you to freak. You still have gas, you can use the BC inflator in a real emergency. However, I'd rather avoid this at all costs, and in the case of Tomcat, I think that making the bungee longer is simply a more logical solution.

[Braunbehrens]

padiscubapro once bubbled...
Braunbehrens,
If you are neutral @10 fsw in a shell type suit you be ok on ascent assuming you are still venting, but there are lots of other drysuits out there..

This illustrates perfectly that DIR is a system, and you can't just take one part and throw the rest out the window. In a GUE class you will learn to dive a balanced rig, and neoprene suits are not DIR.



The goal is not to be neutral with 1/3 your gas, if there is no problem the stress level is low, the big issue if you are having trouble with some situation that causes you gas to get low, this is another stressor that can potentially increase the likelyhood of an accident.

I'm not rereading my post, but I'm pretty sure (and HOPE) that I didn't say that the goal was to be neutral with 1/3rd of your gas. I'm saying that with all tanks completely empty you should be neutral at 10 fsw. If this is really causing you to blow to the surface from 10 ft, then you are doing something wrong. You can still dump your stages, which are going to be slightly positive, dive the suit really tight for the last 10 feet, and kick down a little with your legs. I suggest you try it, and if it really is a problem then weight yourself to be neutral at 5 ft, but I reallly doubt it.




The times when there IS a problem is what should be planned for, if you don't get low gas thats great! If you are neutral (for 1/3)you ar now also positive(if its only slight you can probably control yourself) and the other diver is too positive you wount be able to hold him/her down and there goes your bddy system. [/B]

I don't know where you get this from, but it has nothing to do with what I said. This is a typical cluster situation from people who don't take the time to actually check their buoyancy before diving. In a GUE class you WILL be checking your buoyancy, and you will make sure that you can make a safe ascent with empty tanks with the amount of lead you carry. You will also make sure you are not carrying too much. I dropped 16 pounds of lead, and had to add gas to my wing to ascend from 20 ft.

Most people carry way too much lead, then they have to compensate with dual wings in case they have a failure, then they add bungees to that system which causes more drag, and soon you have a very convoluted system that is much harder to dive.


Like a lot of things....you can talk about it all you want, someone who hasn't done it just isn't going to get it.

I suggest that anyone who doesn't get it simply try the system once to see how it feels. There are lots of DIR demos around the country. Just call GUE and find out where they are.

[Braunbehrens]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

Not to nit pick but I decided the other way worked better (for me)a long time ago. Others have just taken some one elses word for it both times. Yes, it's a little thing but a good example. My rig looks pretty much like I just stepped out of a GUE class (or a Halcyon advertisement) and that's because I've found the vast majority of the system works just fine without reinventing the weel. Still, the philosophical issues are fun to discuss.

Mike, there are morons everywhere, and people who can't (or don't) think for themselves are morons.

Before I accepted DIR I had raging fights with Trey and other DIR proponents about quite a few issues. They are all in the Techdiver and Quest archives. I'm fairly thick skinned, and I'm not shy about calling something BS if that is what I think it is.

As for the reel, I still dive it like that. The reason is that in our local waters we often don't know what the vis is going to be before going in. If it's 5 ft, then I want to reel out from a point near the anchor, but if it's 30 ft then I don't want to have my reel sticking to my stage where it creates drag. I have no issue with getting to it on the rear D-ring, so that's where it goes if there really is no reason to use it. I wouldn't put it there in a wreck, but in a wreck I would be using it, so I wouldn't need to carry it the whole dive.

Everytime I thought that my was was better than doing it the way Trey said, I eventually came around. More often than not this has resulted in me selling some gear. I've wasted a lot of money on dumb gear that I ended up selling for peanuts.

I do also appreciate the frank discussion.

[diveski01]

[
MikeFerrara once bubbled...

IANTD is ten times better than GUE. I'm thinking that only a farm animal would choose GUE over IANTD.


MikeFerrara once bubbled...

In order to stay out of jail I'm going to have to shorten and cheapen the class and give the masses what they want. I guess then I'll be able to fill a DIRF. [/B]

Who, in their right minds, would want to fill YOUR dirf classes when you clearly do not support what GUE brings to the game?

Anyone who is following DIR related threads can easily see how bi-polar your stance is regarding DIR and GUE. Somedays you are all about DIR (ie when trying to fill 3 fundamentals courses so that the dive shop you own will sell more Halcyon gear). But mostly you are bashing away like a maniac.

[Charlie99]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
Mike, there are morons everywhere, and people who can't (or don't) think for themselves are morons.

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
In a GUE class you WILL be checking your buoyancy, and you will make sure that you can make a safe ascent with empty tanks with the amount of lead you carry. You will also make sure you are not carrying too much. I dropped 16 pounds of lead..

The two statements above are from two different posts, but rather humorous when put next to each other.

It appears that many DIR-F students need the class to get them to look at their basic diving skills. Is "moron" too harsh a word to describe them?

[Charlie99]

diveski01 once bubbled towards Mike Ferrera.....
Anyone who is following DIR related threads can easily see how bi-polar your stance is regarding DIR and GUE. Somedays you are all about DIR (ie when trying to fill 3 fundamentals courses so that the dive shop you own will sell more Halcyon gear). But mostly you are bashing away like a maniac.

Perhaps he is trying to keep the good, while leaving behind the bad -- such as the "holier than thou" attitude.

[Braunbehrens]

Charlie99 once bubbled...

It appears that many DIR-F students need the class to get them to look at their basic diving skills. Is "moron" too harsh a word to describe them?

I described as morons only people who do not think for themselves. Do you disagree with that?!?!?


GUE classes make you realize that the skills you had really weren't up to par, and encourage you to improve your diving.

I thought that I was properly weighted. I was actually convinced of it. I was sure that taking off the 16 pounds would result in an ascent, whether I wanted it or not, and was ready for that. I had done the weight check several times, but apparently not in a thourough enough fashion.

I can't really teach a DIR - F class over the net, I'm not an instructor and I think you need to get in the water to do it. However, I can tell you that you will learn how to balance your rig.

[diveski01]

Charlie99 once bubbled...


Perhaps he is trying to keep the good, why leaving behind the bad -- such as the "holier than thou" attitude.

I think he's talking out both sides of his mouth. It seems he is in a bit of a mood himself in this thread.

[MikeFerrara]

diveski01 once bubbled...
[

Who, in their right minds, would want to fill YOUR dirf classes when you clearly do not support what GUE brings to the game?

Anyone who is following DIR related threads can easily see how bi-polar your stance is regarding DIR and GUE. Somedays you are all about DIR (ie when trying to fill 3 fundamentals courses so that the dive shop you own will sell more Halcyon gear). But mostly you are bashing away like a maniac.

Well, I have never been all about DIR. I do agree with much of it but I never ever and I mean never refer to myself as DIR. There are points on which I disagree with GUE. What is the point? I also disagree with much of what PADI and IANTD do and I am an instructor for both those agencies. Yes I scheduled 3 DIRF classes with Tyler Moon. It's a good class a good service to offer and with luck I would sell more Halcyon equipment. BTW, I don't get a nickle from the class. Actually it will cost me money because If I charged for my expenses as well the price would just get to high. Where is the wrong? Is there something wrong with selling Halcyon equipment? Do you think one must be a DIR devote to do so? Sorry, they make good stuff. I use it and I sell it. I also believe the DIRF is a class that has a lot to offer the vast majority of divers. One doesn't need to be a true blue DIR kind of person to go along with that much. Do they?


I think you should elaborate on the point your trying to make.

[MikeFerrara]

diveski01 once bubbled...


I think he's talking out both sides of his mouth. It seems he is in a bit of a mood himself in this thread.

I'm glad you took the bait because I will be happy to defend my views and my ethics to you or any one else here in public or any where else and at any time. Do you have any questions or specific accusations you would like me to address?

Why don't you stop on down this way and talk to some folks to see what I have done for divers in the area? Most I miight add has been at my own considerable expense.

Maybe you would like to describe for us your efforts to contribute to diving.

I'm teaching a IANTD nitrox class at Haigh Quarry tomarrow. Your in the area, maybe you would like to come up and ask questions in person. We will all be in Halcyon equipment. The students will be working on developing really good skills and I will be giving an IANTD lecture. Speaking out both sides of my mouth as you call it.

I'll be there about 10 am. We'll be spending the first few hours in the classroom and on land. What time can we expect you?

[AquaTec]

The original question was what are the differences between TDI and GUE technical courses.

Now it is obviouse that there is a huge difference in training when an PADI recreational diver goes and takes a GUE course. that is apples and oranges.

but after reading all the posts I have only heard a couple of differences.

1 - Deco on the fly instead of tables.....where this is not different is that TDI teaches the use of computers, which is deco on the fly and the added benifit of using any gas to do the deco on the fly.

2 - Video Feedback, this is a great advantage for GUE, I think more TDI instructors should look at this opption and start using this valauble technique. however this is not a diving difference just a teaching difference.

3 - GUE teaches standardized gear and TDI says access all gear and select what is best for you. both sides have good arguments for their case. one takes the decision process out of gear selection and the other puts the owness on the diver to make that decision. of course as a TDI instructor i favour the TDI way. but i would have to call this one a draw as it is really personality and experience based.

4 - GUE practices standardized gasses TDI practices the use all gasses. with standard gasses you will strat to memorize things like filling pressures, deco profiles, etc. with all gasses you need to do the math for you own fills, you will have flexibility with fills such as top offs or gas in remote areas, with the gas available to you you are able to figure out your deco profile. I see a slight edge with TDI on this one, but i am trying not to be bias in this one post so i will call it another draw

As I see the score now it is
TDI wins #1
GUE wins #2
and a tie on #3 & #4

Score 1 - 1 - 2

Now I return you back to the regularly scheduled my dad is bigger than your dad program you have been enjoying
Stay tuned for more scores as this broadcast continues

[MikeFerrara]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MikeFerrara once bubbled...

IANTD is ten times better than GUE. I'm thinking that only a farm animal would choose GUE over IANTD.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

diveski01 said.

Who, in their right minds, would want to fill YOUR dirf classes when you clearly do not support what GUE brings to the game?


hehe I didn't even notice that you quoted that one. Look back at the conversation. LOL...Who do you think I was imitating? It works ok when he does it. hehehehehe

[MikeFerrara]

Charlie99 once bubbled...


Perhaps he is trying to keep the good, while leaving behind the bad -- such as the "holier than thou" attitude.

Yep ya think. LOL

I'll bet nobody can show where I have "bashed" DIR, GUE or the WKPP any more than I have "bashed" my own agencies and many equipment manufacturers. There just isn't an agency on the face of the planet that I can agree with 100%.

[Braunbehrens]

AquaTec once bubbled...
The original question was what are the differences between TDI and GUE technical courses.

Now it is obviouse that there is a huge difference in training when an PADI recreational diver goes and takes a GUE course. that is apples and oranges.

but after reading all the posts I have only heard a couple of differences.

1 - Deco on the fly instead of tables.....where this is not different is that TDI teaches the use of computers, which is deco on the fly and the added benifit of using any gas to do the deco on the fly.

2 - Video Feedback, this is a great advantage for GUE, I think more TDI instructors should look at this opption and start using this valauble technique. however this is not a diving difference just a teaching difference.

3 - GUE teaches standardized gear and TDI says access all gear and select what is best for you. both sides have good arguments for their case. one takes the decision process out of gear selection and the other puts the owness on the diver to make that decision. of course as a TDI instructor i favour the TDI way. but i would have to call this one a draw as it is really personality and experience based.

4 - GUE practices standardized gasses TDI practices the use all gasses. with standard gasses you will strat to memorize things like filling pressures, deco profiles, etc. with all gasses you need to do the math for you own fills, you will have flexibility with fills such as top offs or gas in remote areas, with the gas available to you you are able to figure out your deco profile. I see a slight edge with TDI on this one, but i am trying not to be bias in this one post so i will call it another draw

As I see the score now it is
TDI wins #1
GUE wins #2
and a tie on #3 & #4

Score 1 - 1 - 2

Now I return you back to the regularly scheduled my dad is bigger than your dad program you have been enjoying
Stay tuned for more score as this broadcast continues

1) Using computers is not deco on the fly. Using computers is mostly bend and treat. 90% of the time we get out of the water faster than using a computer, and 90% of the time the computer tells you to do the wrong thing. For example, a computer will penalize you for doing deep stops.

Also, using a computer you are relying on technology that can fail. It has happened to many of us.

2)I agree, video feedback is great. In general GUE tend to use the latest in all aspects of diving. Including deco theory, video feedback, etc.

3) DIR still allows you to use your own gear and to select it. They simply say that some things don't work. There still is a wide range of stuff that does work. Then there is stuff that is used by many many people, and you can be sure that you are not wasting your money.

For example, a neoprene drysuit is not DIR. A bag suit is. If you want to use a suit other than the TLS350 you can do that within DIR. Just make sure it works. Some people have bought bag suits that are badly cut, don't allow you to get to your valves, etc. etc. They have wasted their money instead of going with a sure thing. I am using a bag suit made by ocean vendors that most DIR people have never even heard of. I had them cut it just the way I want it and had them put on DIR style pockets. I'm am VERY happy with it.

4) Standard gasses do not limit you. If you are not an idiot, you can still blow up your tanks on a boat and figure out what to do. However, since you know all the tables by heart for standardized gasses, you will basically know what to do.

Let's take an example. You are doing a dive to 160 feet for 20 mn. Then you want to do some shallower stuff. So you fill your tanks with 21/50 at the shop, and dive them. Lets say (just for argument) that they are half empty at the end of the dive. If the boat has a compressor, you have them blow up the tank and you are now diving 21/25. Since you are diving shallow, it doesn't matter so much that you don't have as much helium. If the boat has nitrox you can have them pump 40% nitrox and you'll end up with something close to 30/25. Just dive it like 30/30, which is the other gas that you know the tables for. If they have only 32%, fine, top off with that, and now you have something like 25/25, which you can still dive like the 21/35 gas you know, since you are keeping it shallow.

If your plan was to go deep on the second dive, you can't do that anyway because you won't have enough helium in your tanks, unless you start off with a very expensive mix such as 21/70. But at that point I'd just bring two sets of doubles.

Knowing standard gasses is not a detriment to learning about mixing and using various gasses. It's an asset. The reason is that if you know the basics for 21%, 30%, 50% and 100% O2 (and possibly 18%) Then you have a good range of gasses covered, and can just use the nearest one for your deco planning.

Always err on the side of safety, of course. This means that if you dive a blown up mix that ended up being 25/25, then you dive it as 30/30 in terms of MOD, and as 21% in terms of deco.

The fact that 95% of your dives will be done on standard gasses, means that you will develop a feel for how much deco you need for a given dive on a given mix. It also means that you will get a feel for how your deco is working out in terms of sub clinical DCS. You have repeatable results, and if you are always tired after a certain dive, maybe it's time to look at the stops and see what you are doing wrong.

I'm not saying here the GUE is better than TDI,

OK, I lied, that is exactly what I'm saying. TDI, IANTD etc. could teach this stuff, but I haven't heard them teach it. Judging by the acceptance of many things that DIR has introduces, I'm sure they will start teaching some of that stuff soon, if they haven't already. Maybe some instructors will even be great. But maybe they'll be awful.

[AquaTec]

[/B][/QUOTE]
1) Using computers is not deco on the fly. Using computers is mostly bend and treat. 90% of the time we get out of the water faster than using a computer, and 90% of the time the computer tells you to do the wrong thing. For example, a computer will penalize you for doing deep stops

If you get penalized for doing deep stops then you are using the wrong computer, it is important to use the correct gear for the diving you will be doing.


Also, using a computer you are relying on technology that can fail. It has happened to many of us.

Redundency.....is it not true that everything to do with scuba is based on technology, we have redundent regs, mask, even lift bags all incase the primary fails. why not a redundent computer.


3) DIR still allows you to use your own gear and to select it. They simply say that some things don't work. There still is a wide range of stuff that does work. Then there is stuff that is used by many many people, and you can be sure that you are not wasting your money

one word bunggied.....not allowed in DIR and many many people use them.


For example, a neoprene drysuit is not DIR. A bag suit is. If you want to use a suit other than the TLS350 you can do that within DIR. Just make sure it works. Some people have bought bag suits that are badly cut, don't allow you to get to your valves, etc. etc. They have wasted their money instead of going with a sure thing. I am using a bag suit made by ocean vendors that most DIR people have never even heard of. I had them cut it just the way I want it and had them put on DIR style pockets. I'm am VERY happy with it.

what do you mean by a bag suit, is a crushed neoprene acceptable.


Let's take an example. You are doing a dive to 160 feet for 20 mn. Then you want to do some shallower stuff. So you fill your tanks with 21/50 at the shop, and dive them. Lets say (just for argument) that they are half empty at the end of the dive. If the boat has a compressor, you have them blow up the tank and you are now diving 21/25. Since you are diving shallow, it doesn't matter so much that you don't have as much helium. If the boat has nitrox you can have them pump 40% nitrox and you'll end up with something close to 30/25. Just dive it like 30/30, which is the other gas that you know the tables for. If they have only 32%, fine, top off with that, and now you have something like 25/25, which you can still dive like the 21/35 gas you know, since you are keeping it shallow.

first is 21/50 one of your standard gasses and second it sounds like a lot of rounding off, adjustments, making exceptions because you can;t figure out how to dive the gas you have but it is close enought to the limited number of gasses you know something about, so just fudge it a bit. where is the line when a mix is fudged to much



If your plan was to go deep on the second dive, you can't do that anyway because you won't have enough helium in your tanks, unless you start off with a very expensive mix such as 21/70. But at that point I'd just bring two sets of doubles.

how about top up with 750psi He within the range of a top up from a He tank, then add air to 3000 psi and presto you have 16/50 for that second deeper dive oh but that wouldn't be a standard gass...but heck we could pretend it is one of our standard gasses since that is all we know the deco for and just dive it anyways.....no you are right, better bring along more tanks, and blead off the gas from the first dive before you hurt yourself



Knowing standard gasses is not a detriment to learning about mixing and using various gasses. It's an asset. The reason is that if you know the basics for 21%, 30%, 50% and 100% O2 (and possibly 18%) Then you have a good range of gasses covered, and can just use the nearest one for your deco planning.

I concede that deco is not an exact science, but i will not add to the inexactness by just doing a deco profile close to what ever i have, or fudge the deco gas a bit.


Always err on the side of safety, of course. This means that if you dive a blown up mix that ended up being 25/25, then you dive it as 30/30 in terms of MOD, and as 21% in terms of deco.

from what you have explained to me here I would say that ERROR is the key word in your estimations and fudging along.


The fact that 95% of your dives will be done on standard gasses, means that you will develop a feel for how much deco you need for a given dive on a given mix. It also means that you will get a feel for how your deco is working out in terms of sub clinical DCS. You have repeatable results, and if you are always tired after a certain dive, maybe it's time to look at the stops and see what you are doing wrong.

I agree that diving standard gasses is a good thing, but if all you learn to do is dive those gasses then you should also learn not to deviate from them, it seems if you are taught that not diving the standard gas and just pretending that it is is ok, then this is not very good instruction that you are recieving and I would look elsewhere for a better quality instructor. I know some good TDI or IANTD ones


I'm not saying here the GUE is better than TDI,

I won't fall into the mine is better than your argument, mine is different, flexible, and open minded.
Your is just dive by rule of thumb and estimates, not really the math part of it all.

just had a thought about the old argument with the navt tables. that was that they where tested by fit athletes/navy divers and the people who where actualy using them did not fit the same profile. GUE is sort of in the same spot whereas the people comming up with this stuff are fit athletes/explorers and there body is capable of doing this type of decompression etc. this may not be so for the people using them. I also now understand the DIR argument about fittness, the GUE developers have reconized this problem and are covering their but, by having the same level of fittness as the developers as part of the progam, then their responsability is deminished when someone not so fit gets in trouble.


OK, I lied, that is exactly what I'm saying. TDI, IANTD etc. could teach this stuff, but I haven't heard them teach it. Judging by the acceptance of many things that DIR has introduces, I'm sure they will start teaching some of that stuff soon, if they haven't already. Maybe some instructors will even be great. But maybe they'll be awful.


Well I would say that both IANTD and TDI take all the good from several different systems and philosyphies of diving including DIR and package them into their system which is a living system meaning it is constantly changing with new technologies and advances. and for the obviouse reasons you have pointed out here they have left this part of the system behind for something more acurate, proven, and tested.

Remember GUE didn't develope the gear configuration that they use, they took it and called it their own. whereas other agencies are glad to give credit where credit is due even if they use something of GUE's

[Braunbehrens]

None of the computers out there have the correct profile. In any case, even if it did, so now your computer is telling you the wrong thing, the other computer is saying something else...it's so much easier to use the most powerful computer you have. Hint, it's mounted between your ears.

Bungied wings...now there is a whole 'nother topic. I have used them. A plain wing is far superior. Let's save this for another thread, or anyone interested can just look up the techdiver archives.

Crushed neoprene is not so bad, I think most instructors would let you use such a suit since there is very little buoyancy shift. However, I used to own such a suit and switched to a shell suit and like it much better. I'm not really the authority on DIR, just a guy who took a couple GUE classes and who tries to dive DIR.

I am surprised at your statement about fudging the deco. Maybe you don't understand how we do it...I'd rather not go into too much detail here, since a little information can be a dangerous thing. Let's just say that Helium is always looked at as a minimum, so whether you dive 21/35 or 21/50 makes no diff. In terms of oxygen, what we are concerned with is a low PO2 on the bottom. So if you are diving a blown up mix that turned out to be 25/30, then you can just dive it as if it was 21/35 in terms of deco obligations. You have less nitrogen/He to deal with in that mix, so you are simply adding a little bit of conservancy. In terms of MOD you treat it as 30/30.

In any case my examples were simply there to illustrate that knowing how to deco off of a few specific gasses will allow you to use a wide range of gasses. I also made it clear that when you dive one gas as if it was another, you always err on the side of safety in terms of MOD and deco obligation.

There really is no fudging involved.

90% of the time you'll be diving one of the mixes that you know. This situation only arises if you have to blow up a tank on a boat.

If you are one of those people who don't deco as well as others, you will find out and adjust your deco accordingly. One of the things DIR is based on is that you can easily determine if you are doing enough deco. There is lots of info on that in the techdiver archives as well.

If you are out of shape, smoke, etc. then you should probably pick a different activity than tech diving! Every sport demands a certain amount of commitment. If a fat cigarette smoking slob tried to run a triathlon he'd probably die of a heart attack. So if you want to be a fat slob, and I really don't mind, don't run a triathlon.

Part of diving DIR is paying attention to your nutrition, the amount of exercise you get etc. If you don't want to do that, fine. No one is putting a gun to anyone's head. However, it should be noted that fatty tissue is much harder to decompress, and that technical diving is a demanding sport.

[tomcat]

i know what you mean. but like i said, for every logical explanation that one can come up with, there will be others that are just as logical.


Braunbehrens once bubbled...


Now ask yourself, do you need that clip? Couldn't you simply make the bungee longer?



i could make it longer. and had it like that for a while. maybe my neck and head are funny or something, but if it is long enough to go over my head comfortably with a slim chance of me snapping my ears, then it hangs too low while i'm diving. can't reach it without using hands. don't like it hanging so low either even though it probably doesn't create that much more drag. i like to stick my head into holes. don't like the thought of it snagging onto something where i can't see and have to attempt taking it off, over my mask!


Braunbehrens once bubbled...

You say that it is not a failure point, but that isn't true. Bungees basically don't fail, but clips do. If it's a plastic clip, it's possible that a tank may land on it one day, while you are on the other end of the boat. This may well give the clip a stress fracture, which might cause it to break later with almost no provocation.


a bungee would snap too if you accidentally cut it with a knife. i also think that if you leave equipment lying around like that, you could also have the possibility of other things getting weakened and breaking later when you need it. wings, harnesses, regulators, masks,... but i think that if a tank were to land anywhere near my equipment, the octopus would probably get smashed first. heck, why not my foot along with that? :p


Braunbehrens once bubbled...

Let's say now that your buddy is out of gas, and you donate your primary. You go for your backup, but the clip broke and now it's not there.

I was practicing once with one of my DIR buddies for a class. I noticed that his necklace reg was not where it was supposed to be, he had forgotten to put it on and it was stuck behind his head!


if the octo falls from neck (for any reason), i'd know it. and if it wasn't there, it would be right below my chest cos it just fell off my neck right?

but what you mentioned is probably a more serious concern. no point having the best equipment and systems if you're not going to use them!



Braunbehrens once bubbled...
I'll tell you one more anecdote. I was diving off my boat with 3 other guys. One of them became seasick, and couldn't dive. My gear had a problem, and I was about to call the dive, when he told me I should just dive his rig. I did, and it felt no different than mine. Everything was in the same place, and worked the same way.


seriously now, in your opinion, forgetting what GUE would say, do you think one clip at the back of the neck, really makes such a big difference? is it impossible that one day GI says it's ok, so that the reg hangs closer to your chin?


Braunbehrens once bubbled...

Lastly, a good instructor should be able to patiently explain why something is or isn't a good idea. If anyone gives you too much attitude, be they GUE, TDI or whatever, I suggest finding someone else. There are plenty. I was very happy with my instructor, Andrew Georgitsis.

totally agreed. but my guess is that these guys are few and far in between. many are patient. but not all would understand a different point of view.

[Braunbehrens]

I think you're better off having it longer and not being able to reach it with your mouth. If a hole is big enough for you to stick your head in with a mask and a reg then the necklace reg isn't going to snag. If it is, then your mask might snag, or your primary might snag.

A bungee is actually a very nice piece of equipment. They last forever, will not break under normal use, and show signs of wear long before they wear out.

If your necklace reg falls off it might get swept behind you.

I seriously doubt GI will ever OK plastic clips anywhere on a rig.

I think your plastic clip is not a huge big deal, but I just wouldn't do it. I don't think it's trivial either. I certainly wouldn't do a "big" dive with someone who had thier backup held together with a plastic clip, but I would go on some shallow reef dives.

Will you kill yourself because of that clip? Probably not. There are lots of guys diving completely moronic rigs and they're still alive, so you're ahead of the game already. But it's not optimal. I would search for a better solution. Maybe thinner bungee so the reg doesn't push agains your neck as much. This might give you more stretch and make it easier to remove as well. Maybe use surgical tubing instead of bungee, just replace it frequently because it does get damaged by sun light. A good instructor should be able to solve your problem.

[DIR Tec Diver]

Comparing TDI to GUE is like comparing a Formula 1 race car to a Hyundai. There is absolutely no comparison between the two. Anyone who willingly chooses to take a TDI course over a GUE course has made a paramount mistake, and listened to way too many stroke divers give their BS reasons to justify their stupidity in choosing a weaker path of training that is complete with horror stories that can fill volumes.

The worst that GUE could do is 1000 times better than any other training agency can do

Sometimes the comments and stupidity put forthe by some people on this board enrage me beyone belief.

[MikeFerrara]

DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
Comparing TDI to GUE is like comparing a Formula 1 race car to a Hyundai. There is absolutely no comparison between the two. Anyone who willingly chooses to take a TDI course over a GUE course has made a paramount mistake, and listened to way too many stroke divers give their BS reasons to justify their stupidity in choosing a weaker path of training that is complete with horror stories that can fill volumes.

The worst that GUE could do is 1000 times better than any other training agency can do

Sometimes the comments and stupidity put forthe by some people on this board enrage me beyone belief.

The thought of you being enraged just bothers the daylights out of me. I think I hear quest calling you.

[O-ring]

DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
Comparing TDI to GUE is like comparing a Formula 1 race car to a Hyundai. There is absolutely no comparison between the two. Anyone who willingly chooses to take a TDI course over a GUE course has made a paramount mistake, and listened to way too many stroke divers give their BS reasons to justify their stupidity in choosing a weaker path of training that is complete with horror stories that can fill volumes.

The worst that GUE could do is 1000 times better than any other training agency can do

Sometimes the comments and stupidity put forthe by some people on this board enrage me beyone belief.
Dude, you used this same line over on quest to compare the Gavin to the Apollo. Reuse of analogies is beyond the pale...

[jonnythan]

O-ring once bubbled...
beyond the pale...

The only places I've read that expression are SB and TDS. Wtf is it?

[nickjb]

jonnythan once bubbled...


The only places I've read that expression are SB and TDS. Wtf is it?


"Pale" comes from a Latin word meaning "stake" or "boundary marker". In the 16 century, the term, "English pale", was used to describe areas under English dominion or jurisdiction.

http://members.aol.com/MorelandC/HaveOriginsData.htm#BeyondThePale

[bwerb]

DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
Sometimes the comments and stupidity put forth by some people on this board enrage me beyond belief.

(I spellchecked the quote too!)

This sums it up in some many ways...an example of pure irony.

:out:

[boomx5]

O-ring once bubbled...

Dude, you used this same line over on quest to compare the Gavin to the Apollo. Reuse of analogies is beyond the pale...

:giggle:


Not everyone can WACG.

[O-ring]

boomx5 once bubbled...


:giggle:


Not everyone can WACG.
He is doing a fine job of making friends over in the other thread...

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27676&perpage=15&display=&pagenumber=1

[tomcat]

boomx5 once bubbled...


:giggle:


Not everyone can WACG.

ok ok, what's "WACG"?

[O-ring]

tomcat once bubbled...


ok ok, what's "WACG"?
Walking and Chewing Gum...a reference to someone being able to do both at the same time..

[Manos]

The question should actualy be what is the best choise ?
to call TDI give them my credit card numbers and order the diploma via mail , or do the course with GUE

[tomcat]

i hate to be rude. problem with asking what is the best choice is that people like you, aren't particularly informative, and provide vague uppity type answers that are more hot air than reason.

i was looking for point by point comparisons which will eventually lead to the answer. if gue does indeed have such a superior program, then it should be easy listing out all the differences between their training and that of other agencies. it should also be plain to all which is the better program. no need for hot air.

if you look back on this thread, you will see for yourself what kind of answers get posted more often, despite the way the question is phrased.

[Manos]

Look into my answer closer , im not trying to be route to you im not trying to be polite to you either , my two lines comment are there to help you.

[tomcat]

Part I

i know you are trying to help me. but telling me what the answer is, without providing me with the justification implies one of the following:

a. you are the authority on this and all should defer to you without questioning
b. i am clairvoyant and can read your mind over 10,000 miles and figure out GUE is so much
c. you don't know why GUE is better, everybody says so, probably quite safe to go with the crowd and not be wrong

Part II

once again, if GUE is indeed so much better, should be easy listing out the differences where it would then be self-evident which is better. could you kindly do that.

if you are sincere about helping me, don't bother commenting on Part I. let me know what you think on Part II.

[roturner]

tomcat once bubbled...
Part I

i know you are trying to help me. but telling me what the answer is, without providing me with the justification implies one of the following:

a. you are the authority on this and all should defer to you without questioning
b. i am clairvoyant and can read your mind over 10,000 miles and figure out GUE is so much
c. you don't know why GUE is better, everybody says so, probably quite safe to go with the crowd and not be wrong

Part II

once again, if GUE is indeed so much better, should be easy listing out the differences where it would then be self-evident which is better. could you kindly do that.

if you are sincere about helping me, don't bother commenting on Part I. let me know what you think on Part II.

I was staying out of this but .....

People say over and over again how much it matters on the instructor. Since you live in Singapore I'd suspect that TDI is bettre represented in your area whereby you'd probably be better able to find a good instructor. Don't you think? And there can't be very many TDI *or* GUE instructors in your area so why not ring them and see what kind of impression you get?

GUE, btw doesn't appear to have any instructors beyond the DIR-F level in your area so whoever you get is likely to be imported. (or a tdi cross-over ;) )

TDI on the other hand has a professional development centre in singapore. you can see their webpage here (http://www.bluemanta.com.sg/) and their course offerings here (http://www.bluemanta.com.sg/tdidiver.html) Compare that to what you find on www.gue.com (http://www.gue.com) and you'll probably get a good idea of how the content differs. The rest is personal choice.

R..

[DIR Tec Diver]

Some friends from GUE and on Quest have said that they are really happy that some of us are taking the time to visit the board and help in which ways we can. They also asked if we can take a less aggressive approach and try to share what we do know to help.

OK No Problemo, so lets back up and start over.

There is a significant difference between GUE and TDI, IANTD, PSA etc. This not only lies in the curriculum, but the instructors as well. Yes the instructor is one of the if not the most important aspect of the choice, but the training, guidelines and accuracy of the information that GUE teaches is based upon the worlds best divers experiences, trials and tribulations and abilities. There is no mistake or coincidence that the worlds best divers are GUE and GUE supporters. Those facts speak for themselves.

Now, yes there are some good instructors in the other named agencies, but as a standard rule, you can't go wrong with GUE. They are so extremely picky about their instructors that the chances of getting anything negative, confusing, incorrect etc. are so remote it is not worth mentioning. Yes it is like comparing a F1 car to a Hyundai, and yes I use this analogy a lot, and no I will not come up with a new one each and every time I want to compare something so keep ridiculous comments like that out of our discussions and lets get on with the diving discussions.

If you want to compare some details, go to www.gue.com and look at the course outlines and see for yourself. However these outlines do not give the full picture. Here is an example.

A TDI instructor taught the trimix course and went through all the motions etc. The first trimix dive after the course resulted in some serious surprises. After coming back from 75 meters and switching to the first deco gas a severe hit of narcosis hit. WHY??? Because the sudden and immediate introduction of nitrogen into the system shocked the body and caused a serious side effect. Without a cool head and quick thinking this could easily lead to a serious if not fatal outcome. Just a little detail perhaps but important ones. GUE instructors go throught the little details, the what ifs the don't do and watch out for this type of scenarios over and over. The result is that you have the real training to do real diving no questions or doubts about it.

Don't have to just swallow this pill and accept it without researching it for yourself but the quality, track record and proof from GUE courses holds a much higher standard and much higher safety record than that achieved of any other training agency. Research it for yourself and enjoy.

[MikeFerrara]

DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
Some friends from GUE and on Quest have said that they are really happy that some of us are taking the time to visit the board and help in which ways we can. They also asked if we can take a less aggressive approach and try to share what we do know to help.

OK No Problemo, so lets back up and start over.

ok



There is a significant difference between GUE and TDI, IANTD, PSA etc. This not only lies in the curriculum, but the instructors as well. Yes the instructor is one of the if not the most important aspect of the choice, but the training, guidelines and accuracy of the information that GUE teaches is based upon the worlds best divers experiences, trials and tribulations and abilities. There is no mistake or coincidence that the worlds best divers are GUE and GUE supporters. Those facts speak for themselves.



No doubt GUE has good instructors. Especially as small as they are they have been able to keep control so far. As far as these guys being the best, well, they certainly say so. There are lots of good divers doing cool stuff all over the world but they don't spend so much time on the net telling everyone about it. I'm spending this weekend helping out on a project in Kentucky, I'll bet there won't be any GUE divers around. Plenty of help is needed though so if you know any one interested I'll let you know who to contact.

[diveski01]

roturner once bubbled...



GUE, btw doesn't appear to have any instructors beyond the DIR-F level in your area so whoever you get is likely to be imported. R..

Andrew Georgitsis travels the entire world to teach all levels of GUE courses where there is enough interest. This usually is 6 people per class, give or take. To set up a course all you have to do is email him to get things started. He usually brings assistants &/or additional instructors with him so everyone gets the same level of instruction regardless of their geographic location. He is a VERY dynamic and passionate instructor.

He, and all GUE instructors, openly welcomes students to ask WHY the equipment and system are designed. In fact, a lot of time is spent during each class answering lots of questions. Every little detail is open for discussion. They will have excellent examples to back up WHY each piece of the DIR system has been selected.

[DIR Tec Diver]

Becki,

you are so right. Also they usually have a DIR demo prior to any class open to anyone especially those who want to fight against them. Andrew G is also such a dynamic and nice person. I have been trying so hard to get him over for some classes, but as you can expect he is usually booked for a looooong time.

It is also true that a lot of GUE instructors and dives "brag", but a lot of that is in defence of attacks against them where they need to prove or back up their experience and knowledge and then in turn that is used against them too.

There are some people on this list that are slamming and bashing me and some others too, but that's ok. I and none of the others are here to try and make friends but discuss, share, argue if needed etc. all in the hopes to learn and share what we learn, and of course to learn from others. When you think you know it all, you die.

I know some excellent divers that are IANTD, TDI and PSA instructors, I have the materials from all of them and have read most all of them too. I would be happy to learn from some of them, but unfortunately I have run into a lot of them I would not want anything to do with. My experience with GUE has been much much different. They take a beating from people and just keep on pushing along. I have a lot of respect for them.

[diveski01]

Manos once bubbled...
The question should actualy be what is the best choise ?
to call TDI give them my credit card numbers and order the diploma via mail , or do the course with GUE

A lot of us GUE trained divers are trying to project a more appropriate attitude towards all divers in hopes of quelling the negativity attributed to DIR divers. The public perception of the DIR community is very poor. This is largely due to those who have been too heavily influenced by certain leaders of the system. Not all of us are that way towards others, even though our convictions run just as deeply.

The aggressive posting style that is so widely and that is accepted on quest isn't appropriate on this board. This forum is for the general diving community and many are just not as hard-core as quest subscribers tend to be. If you come into this forum with the same approach as posting on quest, you will 1) get hammered and 2) ruin our efforts of showing that GUE is about safe diving first and foremost and not about individual superiority.

I lose my temper at times with certain individuals on this board, but I try my best to take the high road and live and dive by example. I read quest and am able to sift past the attitude to get the message. A lot of divers are very sensitive about how information is posted and get caught up in the delivery and totally miss the message.

People here want to know WHY you have formed your decisions and they want to know WHY various equipment and diving techniques are better than others. Sure there's a lot of BS on here, but most readers are genuinely interested in gaining knowledge.

It's difficult to explain to people who haven't been through a DIR training experience. If you get it, it changes you. Once you see a system that makes so much sense, it's like you know about something special that many others are still oblivious to. It's like you are in a special crowd that exists on a higher level of awareness because you feel so much better about how you dive, who you dive with, and the resulting heightened enjoyment of the sport. Some take that too far and it is undeservedly perceived as arrogance and "holier than thou". Many really are arrogant jerks who deserve the cold shoulder. It's those types who do more damage than good as they dissuade other divers from finding out for themselves if DIR will benefit them.

[Manos]

>>People here want to know WHY you have formed your decisions <<

You wanted a comparison between GUE and TDI , anyone
geting into the conversation of comparing the two organisations
is making a big mistake. How can you make such a comparison.

My TDI instructor 5 years ago was Nikos Raftis , this guy has a world wide reputation on designing Gas blending computerised systems for Drager. His last words on me at the end of the course was , im out of TDI those guys are selling C cards via post.

In this list you have to filter the people that can post usefull right information and then close your ears when the strokes sing.

Safe diving. Manos

[jonnythan]

Manos once bubbled...
[BIn this list you have to filter the people that can post usefull right information and then close your ears when the strokes sing.

Safe diving. Manos [/B]

This board was a lot more tolerable before we had people calling each other strokes.

[Doc Intrepid]

when did you go off your meds?

I'm not sure what your problem is, but I'm reasonably sure its in the DSM-IV and that there are pills for it.

Why don't you tone down on the 'stroke' business and relax a bit. If you have anything constructive to contribute, I'll bet it might be better received.

[MikeFerrara]

diveski01 once bubbled...



I lose my temper at times with certain individuals on this board,

Yes and you don't answer their rebuttals.

[Braunbehrens]

tomcat once bubbled...
Part I

i know you are trying to help me. but telling me what the answer is, without providing me with the justification implies one of the following:

Look, if you don't like his answer, ask someone else.

Here is what happened during my advanced nitrox TDI class. This was with a great (by any standard) TDI instructor, the best local non-DIR diver, and an all around great guy whom I really don't want to badmouth.

We did one lecture during which we discussed some stuff. I learned very little. I had read the book and was already familiar with 90% of the material.

In the book it said that being narced and not knowing it is a good thing. If you don't believe me, read the book.

The instructor did debunk this when I brought it up (in all fairness).

Now, I had dived with this instructor a couple of times, and he had seen me dive many many times. He was well aware of my skills.

We did one boat dive. The instructor sent me off with another student and a graduate of one of his adv. nitrox classes, let's call the student Joe and the other guy Kent. I had dived with Kent many times, and our skills were about on par.

During the dive Joe misunderstood the instructions and completely screwd up the dive. If I remember right, he took off reeling and never came back. I had to call Kent's attention to this fact, and we chased him down.

We shot a bag, which I had already done, and I did a gas switch, which I also already knew how to do.

I paid (I think) $400 for this class. The ONLY thing it was good for is getting a card that would get me fills. That's it.

About a year later I took a GUE FUNDAMENTALS class. I learned a mindblowing amount of stuff. I figured out what I was able to do, and what I wasn't able to do. I figured out which skills I still needed to work on. I learned how to deal with a situation that is outside your planned dive. Getting to my valves, getting the backup mask, donating the primary, going to the backup reg etc etc., all these things became second nature.

Yes, I did practice quite a bit for this class. To me, that is part of the preparation, which I had also done for the TDI class. So some of the stuff I learned is due to practicing, and due to a local GUE instructor who was kind enough to do practice dives with me (he wasn't instructor yet back then). I also practiced with other guys who had signed up for the class.

I know that you can always say "well, I"m sure there are good TDI instructors and crappy GUE instructors". Maybe that is possible. Maybe it's even likely. However, your chances of getting excellent instruction are much much higher with GUE.

Just look around you. Out of all the people who've taken GUE and TDI classes, I'm willing to bet that over 90% will say that GUE is far better.

[tomcat]

Look, if you don't like his answer, ask someone else.

i'm sure Manos had a reason for feeling so strongly about TDI and i wanted to hear it. Looks like he wasn't joking or being sarcastic when he claims TDI sells c-cards. Since he is not forthcoming in other details, will leave it as that.


Just look around you. Out of all the people who've taken GUE and TDI classes, I'm willing to bet that over 90% will say that GUE is far better.

true, that is indeed what i have been getting. was wondering why because all they could tell me was that "GUE is so much better, just go take the course and you'll know why". i can't "just take the course" cos it does cost a lot of money and time. that's why i wanted to find out what the differences were.

so what i have gathered so far is that there is a difference in:

a. depth of instruction
b. level of knowledge gained
c. scope of knowledge covered
d. # useful skills gained
e. overall proficiency and confidence developed

thanks for all the inputs guys.

[diveski01]

Manos once bubbled...
[BIn this list you have to filter the people that can post usefull right information and then close your ears when the strokes sing.

Safe diving. Manos [/B]

Yes, each person must decide for themselves what information to take in and what to ignore.

However, it is apparent that Manos completely missed, or completely ignored, my plea to be more diplomatic here than some folks are over on Quest.

Manos, you are killing efforts to clean up the negative image of DIR divers. The term "stroke" is highly offensive to the general diving public because they do not have the background knowledge to comprehend it's true meaning.

Please refrain from using quest-like terminology on this board. Say what you wish on quest. That is a subscription forum for GUE members and speaking freely is not an issue there as the members are knowledgeable about what the terms mean. I, personally, have absolutely no issues with any of the language used over there but it should be kept over there. I actually think a lot of it is very entertaining.

However, this is a forum for the general diving community and I am embarrassed by hard-core DIR fanatics that insist on demeaning others, just for sport. There's no need to be rude to others to show that you are a good diver with excellent Tech &/or Cave skills.

To dive DIR and to take GUE training are personal decisions each diver has to make. A lot of us are trying to encourage just that. Being rude and offensive is counter-productive to more divers looking into the benefits of this system.

DIR is no longer just for the high-end Tech and Cave communities. It is coming to and being accepted by recreational divers who believe in it just as strongly as Tech and Cavers.

[Braunbehrens]

Becki, I have no problem with people being rude to each other on Quest. However, there are some people on Quest who are apparently only there to "check things out". As a result, when someone says something disparaging about recreational divers on Quest, it ends up being quoted again over here.

I would prefer it if people approached this whole thing in the spirit of wanting to help others, and didn't make any rude comments about anyone, anywhere.

It is one thing if Trey feels that DIR is being attacked and defends himself. It is another when a relative DIR novice tries to imitate this by making fun of or yelling at recreational divers.

Just my .02

[diveski01]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
Becki, I have no problem with people being rude to each other on Quest. However, there are some people on Quest who are apparently only there to "check things out". As a result, when someone says something disparaging about recreational divers on Quest, it ends up being quoted again over here.

I would prefer it if people approached this whole thing in the spirit of wanting to help others, and didn't make any rude comments about anyone, anywhere.

It is one thing if Trey feels that DIR is being attacked and defends himself. It is another when a relative DIR novice tries to imitate this by making fun of or yelling at recreational divers.

Just my .02

I'm totally with you and thanks for your post over on quest conveying the differences in delivery style and terminology when posting here. No surprise regarding the first response to it.

A relative DIR novice has no grounds to put down those he/she has just been one of. Nobody is immediately an expert at every skill as soon as the course lets out. We all need to practice skills as a routine part of our diving and evolve accordingly.

GI is trying to save lives and intentionally uses a strong delivery style with those who seem to need it that way. If people are saying improper things on quest then they should expect to get it from him with both barrells over there. quest posts do not belong over here for sure! I'm a quest lurker for my own edification.

Ideally, an experienced and knowledgeable DIR diver should be willing to share with others in a helpful and encouraging manner. That's how I got into it - through observing the skills practiced by a couple of dive buddies - with excellent skills btw, very squared away. That progressed to listening to their discussions, learning the basics, then taking a class, then practice, practice, practice.

We've had a lot of success with introducing DIR diving to fellow members of a LDS dive club who just want to get better and they can see where the bar is by diving with these guys. These guys are fully aware of how much better they are u/w than most everyone in our area, but they are NEVER demeaning to recreational divers. Excellent mentors and ambassadors for DIR. Hopefully more of that positive attitude will become evident on this board.

[O-ring]

Becki, I have no problem with people being rude to each other on Quest. However, there are some people on Quest who are apparently only there to "check things out". As a result, when someone says something disparaging about recreational divers on Quest, it ends up being quoted again over here.

There are DIR divers on this board. Just because someone hangs out here, does not mean they are a stroke. As we found out yesterday and today, some quest members that recently came over here are far more stroked out than most of the denizens of this board. A lot of the DIR divers here read quest (they don't just "check things out") and post on this community as well. They manage to do all this without coming off like total jerks too. Much to your surprise, this is not entirely a community of "recreational divers" either...just because someone doesn't read quest, or if someone reads quest and also hangs out here, they are not automatically a recreational diver or somehow less a person than you or I.

The recent quest additions to our friendly community started the crossposting and they got bit hard by it. Too bad... they shouldn't have started a fight they couldn't finish. They ended up looking like a bunch of idiots and reflected badly on DIR. Oh well, let's get over it and move on. Lesson learned...let's hope. The infighting and the attempt to throw MHK under the bus was really pathetic. I lost what remaining respect I had for any of you after that little move... I took a class with MHK and can vouch for his skill in the water, instructional ability, and overall good attitude. I can't say the same for any of our johnny-come-lately messiahs.


A relative DIR novice has no grounds to put down those he/she has just been one of
This is where we disagree. I don't particularly care if someone is a DIR novice, or an expert...there is no excuse for treating people like pieces of trash. I can only imagine what would happen if you people behaved in this manner when you aren't hiding behind the Internet and a keyboard. Surely someone would stick a scout where the sun don't shine, and I would be first in line and handing out numbers.

Another thing I thought was funny was how I am sooo dangerous and your purpose is to cleanse the board of people like me who get people killed. You have no idea who the hell I am or what training I have or even if I am DIR. What if I am 100% DIR? What if I am actively working towards DIR? What if I have friends who are GUE instructors or WKPP divers? Who knows and who cares. The problem is, even if I was DIR, I would still be calling you all "you people" and trying to distance myself as much as possible because I don't want to be associated with anyone that looks down their nose at others in that manner and feels it is alright to tee off on whomever they want based on how they dive.

Anyway, I hope all the bad blood goes away and we can move on.

[scubatexastony]

Well put and to the point. I almost took a DIRF this spring but due to the attitude of the host, I had no desire to find out what I might be missing. Be glad to dive with you any day!

tony

[O-ring]

scubatexastony once bubbled...
Well put and to the point. I almost took a DIRF this spring but due to the attitude of the host, I had no desire to find out what I might be missing. Be glad to dive with you any day!

tony
DIR-F was the best class I have ever taken...period. I would find another host and try to take it, it truly is a great class. Although I have no experience in the new format, I bet it is still the eye-opener it was when I took it. I know that JJ, Dave Sweetin, and MHK are great instructors if you ever have the opportunity to take it from any of them.

Another good point Tony brings up...now he will dive with me. Hmm.... What can I do with that? Plenty. We have been doing it up this way for the past year or so and it was being done for quite a while prior to that by others near me. Now we could head to the quarry and do a dive. Beforehand, we might talk about gear and procedures. I might see something on Tony's gear that I thought was a little odd and say something like:

Me: "Hey Tony, that's a nice reg, how long have you had it?"

Tony: "A couple years.."

Me: "Very cool. Hey, have you ever thought about rigging the hoses this way?"

Tony: "No, not really. Why should I do it that way?"

Me: "Well, it facilitates reaching your valves because you might want to <fill in the blanks and the rest>.

Now I have a friend, a dive buddy, and am passing along the message and hopefully it was received. If not, oh well, I still have made a friend..

[metridium]

O-ring wrote...
Now I have a friend, a dive buddy, and am passing along the message and hopefully it was received. If not, oh well, I still have made a friend.. Are you sure you're not JJ's little bro?

:)

Great attitude, seriously.

[Braunbehrens]

I subscribed to this board with the best intentions, and I believe I have been polite and friendly in all my discussions. Now I get "thrown under the bus" as you say because some other guys have a different way of approaching things.

Thanks a lot!

I happen to be convinced that DIR is the safest way to dive. I do not "look down my nose" at other divers or feel that I am superior to them. I do feel that DIR is superior to another way of diving. If I didn't, then I'd be diving that other way.

You are accusing the DIR people of making it an "us vs them" scenario, but in reality you are the one who is doing so.

Please allow others to have a different opinion from yours, and to make their points without making assumptions about them.

If you don't like the way someone behaves, instead of taking an elitists and pigeonholing stane by saying "those DIR guys yada yada yada", I suggest you say what you want to say about the INDIVIDUALS that you have a problem with.

All I'm asking really, is to be accorded the same courtesy that I grant you.

thanks.

[sheck33]

jeesh people, relax! Is this a slaughterhouse/battlefield or a discussion board :confused:
i have been reading this thead for a while and all i see is an interesting discussion about to DIR or not to DIR turn into a verbal battlefield. Come on now, lets be nice :mean:
i have fixed opinion about the whole GUE, TDI thing too but i dont recall telling anybody they are going to die unless they do it the GUE way :D

So, lets me nice ;)

[O-ring]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
I subscribed to this board with the best intentions, and I believe I have been polite and friendly in all my discussions. Now I get "thrown under the bus" as you say because some other guys have a different way of approaching things.

Thanks a lot!

I happen to be convinced that DIR is the safest way to dive. I do not "look down my nose" at other divers or feel that I am superior to them. I do feel that DIR is superior to another way of diving. If I didn't, then I'd be diving that other way.

You are accusing the DIR people of making it an "us vs them" scenario, but in reality you are the one who is doing so.

Please allow others to have a different opinion from yours, and to make their points without making assumptions about them.

If you don't like the way someone behaves, instead of taking an elitists and pigeonholing stane by saying "those DIR guys yada yada yada", I suggest you say what you want to say about the INDIVIDUALS that you have a problem with.

All I'm asking really, is to be accorded the same courtesy that I grant you.

thanks.
I'll be civil...sorry for throwing you under the bus with the rest of them, but I wanted to make sure we understand the concept here. When someone (or multiple people) representing a group come in and make that group look bad, it often splatters over onto other people associated with that group.

Now think of how the resident DIR people felt when all your quest guys showed up.

No hard feelings I hope..

[Braunbehrens]

I'm not interested in "converting" anyone against their will. It's not religion. I simply feel I have found a better way to dive, and want to share it.

Thanks fof the peace offering. Peaceful discussions are always much more pleasant and productive.

[Laser]

tomcat once bubbled...
I had been very impressed with people at Scubaboard until now. Whenever a question is asked, answers are usually informative and to the point.

Why are people jumping so quickly to the better/worse part without even answering the first part about significant differences? If you don't state or can't state the differences, how can you then explain to someone which is better and which is worse?

Besides, the question was about advantages and disadvantages. Not which course is better. That judgement comes only after examining the relative advantages and disadvantages.

In my opinion, I shouldn't have asked this question here, having suspected that people can't see past the GUE vs Rest of the World debate. How do you expexct a new prospective technical diver like me to make informed choices when people just focus on the who got the better agency debate without being able to elaborate intelligently on why it is so.

I have heard about people from some agencies being lemmings (act/speak without thinking/understanding) and I thought it was because of how the questions were phrased (of the which is better variety). Thought I could avoid that by breaking the question down into parts before coming to the which is better part. Guess I was wrong. The force is strong! The darkside beckons :p


You said it all here. People who have taken the courses have a different attitude than those who have not. It's unfortunate that so many people feel threatened by whatever Gue is doing. I'm not 100% DIR and maybe never will be, but as a teaching agency, if I was going somewhere bad and dark, I'd want their training.

[Laser]

[QUOTE]MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I'm glad you took the bait because I will be happy to defend my views and my ethics to you or any one else here in public or any where else and at any time. Do you have any questions or specific accusations you would like me to address?

Why don't you stop on down this way and talk to some folks to see what I have done for divers in the area? Most I miight add has been at my own considerable expense.

Maybe you would like to describe for us your efforts to contribute to diving.

I'm teaching a IANTD nitrox class at Haigh Quarry tomarrow. Your in the area, maybe you would like to come up and ask questions in person. We will all be in Halcyon equipment. The students will be working on developing really good skills and I will be giving an IANTD lecture. Speaking out both sides of my mouth as you call it.

I'll be there about 10 am. We'll be spending the first few hours in the classroom and on land. What time can we expect you? [/


I'm at Haigh all the time. Perhaps we'll cross paths.

[MikeFerrara]

Speaking as some one who can loose patients in a hurry with some of these guys, a wise man once said what works, works. I have dived with a few real die hard DIR folks and they were great to dive with and we didn't even fight. Even though I will never use the term DIR in regard to myself we meshed. When it comes to diving "values" we have much in common. We have some folks like that on this board.

I'm all for hammering the jerks but we can't define jerk as all who are or desire to be DIR. Jerks are just Jerks. LOL

My advice to those who think like me is use the good stuff you learn even if some poeple call it DIR. Funny thing is, I recently was accused of talking out both sides of my mouth for arguing with some of these guys. Some get confused because I share some of the same views yet but heads over other GUE/WKPP stuff. Of course I am just as quick to point out the ills of other agencies even those I am an instructor for. Fact is, too me, agencies (period) are something I'd be happy to do without. They may be a necessary evil but that's the best I can say about any of them.

[scubatexastony]

Excellent Idea, Manos


Manos once bubbled...
>>People here (Scubaboard) want to know WHY you have formed your decisions <<

You wanted a comparison between GUE and TDI , anyone
geting into the conversation of comparing the two organisations
is making a big mistake. (your opinion)
In this list (forum) you have to filter the people that can post usefull right information and then close your ears when the strokes sing.

Safe diving. Manos

I'll just put you on the ignore list (close the "ears") and keep up on the USEFUL RIGHT INFORMATION! tra la la la, la la la la

[Braunbehrens]

scubatexastony once bubbled...
Excellent Idea, Manos



I'll just put you on the ignore list (close the "ears") and keep up on the USEFUL RIGHT INFORMATION! tra la la la, la la la la

I wish people would be clearer when they post.

Did you mean that tralala as sung in the
nja nja
nja nja
njaaa
njaaa

way, or more of a ladida light hearted way?

Maybe you could attach a sound file...

;-)

[diveski01]

Can regulators split a thread so that the original issue posted can continue and the unrelated turf battles get put into a new thread?

While I'm interested in trying to help clean up the negative image of DIR advocates, I also want to learn something from the on-topic responses to the original question. So many threads are hijacked these days. OK, so I about burst something when one got to "slinging Fido like a stage bottle" but it would be nice to be able to sit down and read a thread without all the tangents.

[DIR Tec Diver]

A very good friend of mine here in Finland is an IANTD instructor, and i would take a course from him any time. He is very DIR minded and an very personable guy. He also advocates a better curriculum with GUE. That is one of the reasons I did so much research and discussed things with him. He told me that the core ideas are similar, but GUE expands so much into the areas that a lot of people don't know, don't realize or had not experienced. The divers with GUE have just done so much, gone so far and rewritten the book in many cases, that my personal opinion is that they have the most current and real life material to pass on.

[WaterDawg]

DIR tech Diver,

Thanks for the intelligent reply. Its one of the only that address the issue. As a begginer, I must tell you guys how funny you some of you sound when you resort to "mine is bigger than yours" game.
Stick to the facts, if you have to put anyone down in order to make a point, its not worth it.

The Local IANTD instruntor dosent do much for the good name of the agency, But people here cant wait for the GUE inst to return. This probably has more to do w/ the individuals.

[diverbrian]

I am sorry, but I have to offer my two cents:

And I will admit to being relatively new to this type of diving, so if you wish to ignore it, feel free:

I am reading from a bunch of divers with differing ideas. I have a copy of the IANTD Tech Diver's Encyclopedia and refer to it frequently. This is especially true of the portion referring to the different rigs that different divers use and why. I know that while I saw value in everyone's ideas (as I do here), I didn't care for Mr. Jablonski's sarcasm and seeming belief that his was the only way to do things. I read almost the same article in the GUE website, so this was not IANTD making it appear in a bad context.

I am sure that not all GUE divers (indeed, not even most) are that way but that kind of seeming arrogance and "religious fervor" really tends to turn people away from listening. And wouldn't you rather have people hear your points instead of tune you out. I basically use a rig very similar to JJ's (in that article at least, it has probably changed somewhat since now), but because I like it, not because someone told me that it was the only right way. I am also looking for ways to improve it all of the time. That means that another diver could not just take my rig off the shelf and dive it without any consideration. So WHAT? It is MY rig, not theirs. If something isn't where it feels natural to ME at depth, I may have trouble finding it. I have heard many good ideas from many good divers. I see nothing wrong with incorporating them into my diving at my pace.

I am not saying that any agency in this field is better than the other. I know that all have their advantages and disadvantages. Being able to recalculate deco is a great idea (for example). But, flexibility is good as well. Listening to other divers is important when you get into decompression diving which is a little riskier than recreational NDL limits if not done safely. Safety implies education (in this diver's opinion). Education (in this diver's opinion) is not taken in by a closed mind convinced that theirs is the only correct way. And this is attitude, not which agency trained you, so again, I am not trying to bash or support anyone. I am just trying to say how I feel about the whole debate.

For instance, I won't criticize the diver that signalled OOA to drive the point home about the necklace. Maybe this was a dive buddy that he dives with all of the time and he knew that the guy wouldn't panic. Maybe this was the umpteenth time that this diver had forgotten to attach his necklace and someone felt that a stronger reminder was in order. Maybe it was somebody relatively new and the guy that signalled was OOA was running too many risks. We simply don't know enough to judge here (and really don't have the need to know).

But, let us just keep an open mind, and if I am too unsafe to dive with anyone (in their opinion), they have the right not to dive with me. I know plenty of people who know me well enough to dive with me. But lets keep it to interagency comparisions, not agency and philosophy bashing.