Features for the next generation CCR?

[KentCe]

I was wondering what divers would want in a next generation CCR. Say something in the next few years. These are features that should be common in all future CCRs (production level and not require a third-party add on).

Please keep all comments generic and not point to X or Y already having this or that feature. Leave CE testing comments to another thread.

For example:

1. Dual full dive computers (one for each wirst) that monitors the O2, dive profile, deco, etc. For example, a Cochran that can monitor all three O2 sensors and handle master/slave mode with a second Cochran.

[madmole]

Dual Independant, wrist mounted controllers with Deco and multiple gas ability

Heads up display

Emergency alarms (programmable)

Customisable parameters on the computers covering injection patterns etc

Over the shoulder lungs for low breathing rsistance

Auto dump for hands free ascent

ADV for hands free decent

OC/DSV for easy and safe bailout

22Kg min lift wing

CO2 Breakthrough alarm

Well, apart form the last one I've just decribed my "Molespiration" unit which I dive normally anyways

Fantasy wish list, is independant bailout rebreather , aka Twinspiration

[fins wake]

... to see someone like Dräger - or anyone else - manufacture for the world market is a KISS-style Dräger Ray CCR, like the one Australian diver Barry Gill has built.

The advantages of having a very compact - and light - unit which could be packed into an ordinary suitcase (minus tanks) and taken round the world anywhere there is pure oxygen available is just too mouthwatering to contemplate. All one needs is the DrägerSorb and gas and one is off! And with dive operators storing the small tanks and the sorb ... wawooom! =-)

If something like this ever hit the market (with a large enough scrubber, Inspiration- or Dolphin-size, not Ray-size) it would corner almost all of it rapidly! And of course, it certainly needs an oxygauge or similar to measure ppO2.

This is the RB we're waiting for. But probably will have to build ourselves in order to see ... ;-0

K.

[padiscubapro]

madmole once bubbled...
Dual Independant, wrist mounted controllers with Deco and multiple gas ability

Heads up display

Emergency alarms (programmable)

Customisable parameters on the computers covering injection patterns etc

Over the shoulder lungs for low breathing rsistance

Auto dump for hands free ascent

ADV for hands free decent

OC/DSV for easy and safe bailout

22Kg min lift wing

CO2 Breakthrough alarm

Well, apart form the last one I've just decribed my "Molespiration" unit which I dive normally anyways

Fantasy wish list, is independant bailout rebreather , aka Twinspiration

I would add virtually indestructable Titanium housing...
Oooopps got that already ;)

[DrySuitDave]

handset controllers with integrated dive computers

controllers would have a wireless option

heads-up display in the mask ala Cochran

full data logging ala Cis-Lunar MkVP

in-the-housing counterlungs that are easily breathable so I can get all that clutter off my shoulders and front

ADV

DSV/OC

C02 monitors within the controllers

A scrubber mounted lower in the unit to put more bouyancy in the top, hopefully reducing the top counterweights needed.

a much lighter, more compact unit

a quick release scrubber lid system

if money were no object, inconel cylinders

the data logging system could be downloaded via a serial port system and can be checked by the manufactuer via the Internet.

unitized so more expensive features could be added at a later time

[caveseeker7]

Dual independent electronics - hoseless wrist mounted primary control display, secondary wrist or console mounted (divers choice) for deco-computer with multiple gas capability powered by dual independet batteries

CO2 Breakthrough alarm

Heads-up O2 status & CO2 alarm display on OC/DSV

Back-mounted lungs with low breathing resistance, protected by the box

Auto dump for hands free ascent

ADV for hands free decent

Wing-based BC in different wing sizes

Scrubber - small(er as today) and (more) efficient, of a solid design rather than granules to ease breathing resitance and avoidance of channeling. Also quicker, cleaner and more convinient than granular scrubber

Macintosh software part of software package

RB should be about the size of the Dolphin (w/out tank(s))

Optional titanium frame ($$$), lids & wing color options

Optional dual RB ...

[nickjb]

Most of these enhancements seem to be current generation tweaks, not next generation. How about things like lifetime CO2 scrubbing. I'm no expert but that would handy, wouldn't it?

[madmole]

Yes a cryogenic CO2 scrubber would be great!! no need for CO2 worries agian. Shame about having to carry 10 car batteries around :(

Ideal rebreather for next generation would be the one James Bond uses in the Shark Pool in Doctor No. ie two CO2 cartidges and a mouthpiece. Now wouldn't that be nice :D

[fins wake]

... re-reading KentCe's original thread, I'd like to venture again that CE-marking would have to be considered absolutely essential for any future rebreather, whether a fancy all-titanium (titanium?) bells-and-whistles SOTA box or a simple travel-CCR ...

I think a lot of people still don't get this: If you build the best, safest, most capable and even cheapest rebreather in the world, it still cannot be legally sold first- or second-hand, serviced or used in instruction or commercial work in by far the largest of all rebreather markets unless it's CE-marked ...

That's of course unless the esoteric rebreather is meant to be sold only in small numbers.:confused:

K.

[padiscubapro]

Drysuit dave said

"A scrubber mounted lower in the unit to put more bouyancy in the top, hopefully reducing the top counterweights needed.
"
not a good thing the farther from the lung centroid the greater the breathing resistance


"a much lighter, more compact unit"

use aluminum cylinders but then you need more weight when diving, alternatively you can switch to 2l cylinders to save some weight
drop the apeks regs and get some cheap scubapros like another RB manufacturer uses
drop the manifold and switch to just soft hoses.. like another rb manufacturer does..
Naaah.. I'll stay with the clean setup and better regs

"titanium cylinders"

BOOOOOOOM!

[KentCe]

madmole once bubbled...
Emergency alarms (programmable)

Besides the generic "look at your computer alarm." I assume an additional alarm for too deep.



madmole once bubbled...
Customisable parameters on the computers covering injection patterns etc

Mmmm, would that be a good thing? Could you provide a specific example of an existing pattern you would change?

[madmole]

On Hammerhead we already have 2 injection patterns and user settable tolerances for injection parameters. Whe you now what you are doing these are usefull

Having to shut a mouthpiece off, drop it, find your bailout and insert it (even turn it on in some cases) is too slow.

There are also lots of folks who have had hypercapnia attacks who are breathing sooo rapidly they couldn't take the mouthpiece out even though their life depended on it. An OC/DSV makes life far safer, you just turn a knob, end of problem. Your buddy can now also bail you out quickly and easily if you have a problem

I personally believe an OC/DSV is one of the biggest safety features you can fit

Titanium and Oxygen do not mix, they go bang spontaneaously!!!!

[padiscubapro]

madmole once bubbled...


Titanium and Oxygen do not mix, they go bang spontaneaously!!!!

As madmole said titanium and oxygen are ot a gggood mix thats why I said "Boooom"

On my Titanium unit only my chasis is titanium anything that comes in contact with breathing gas is oxygen compatiblem.. the titanium chasis is very light, offers me lots of mounting oprions and is strong as hell.. I can even drop it by another 4 Kg by just changing my bottom bracket (believe it or nt this is MOST of the weight of the chasis).

[KentCe]

.

[madmole]

Actually most of the severse hypercapnias have been within 10 mins of athe start of a dive and have been bypasses or outbreathing the scrubber cos its not warmed up yet

The one repeated theme on all of these reports has been the inability of the affected diver to bail out. They knew they had to, but they COULD NOT remove their mouthpiece. This has been consistantly reported. Fortunately most have managed to dil flush or had a reg swap forced on them by a buddy and hence have survived. but the reports clearly show that a bail out that invoves removing a mouthpiece is NOT viable.

Anyone who uses their scrubber over the manufacturers tested limits deserves what they get

[caveseeker7]

deleted

[padiscubapro]

caveseeker7 once bubbled...
KentCe, if you're thinking of a huge brick in front of your face you're probably thinking of the Halcyon ... :(

I'm pretty sure Madmole, DSDave and I are thinking Bob Howell's OC/DSV. He integrates a Dacor Viper, one of the smallest DVs, on a swivel to the DSV. It doesn't get better and smaller than that, and all you need to switch is a quarter turn. Better than using an integrated inflator DV and trying to manage bouyancy while breathing under stress. :D That aside, most DSVs are rather hard to open and close single-handed.

Unfortunately, Bobs products are no longer an option check out his web site, the parts are no longer listed..

[KentCe]

madmole once bubbled...
Actually most of the severse hypercapnias have been within 10 mins of athe start of a dive and have been bypasses or outbreathing the scrubber cos its not warmed up yet

I've never heard of this issue (a within spec fill with proper pre-dive check failed due to the cold). Sure didn't talk about it in SCR (Dolphin) class. But the water up here stays above 41F.

I understand that bad packing or pushing the limits can cause a problem. Maybe some one using wrong size grain?

The only hypercapnia case I've heard about (locally) was no sofnolime in the unit (and the diver had the normal bail-out reg). Interesting, the diver thought it was a heart attack and didn't realize it could be a CO2 issue (thought he had a new fill) and the bail-out was greatly delayed (not even sure bail-out was even used).

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I like to fully understand the why of any equipment choice. More for me to think about...

[padiscubapro]

KentCe once bubbled...


I've never heard of this issue (a within spec fill with proper pre-dive check failed due to the cold). Sure didn't talk about it in SCR (Dolphin) class. But the water up here stays above 41F.

I understand that bad packing or pushing the limits can cause a problem. Maybe some one using wrong size grain?

The only hypercapnia case I've heard about (locally) was no sofnolime in the unit (and the diver had the normal bail-out reg). Interesting, the diver thought it was a heart attack and didn't realize it could be a CO2 issue (thought he had a new fill) and the bail-out was greatly delayed (not even sure bail-out was even used).

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I like to fully understand the why of any equipment choice. More for me to think about...

scrubber efficiency depends on the temperature and the moisture content. the scrubber will not work with water present.. a 5 minute prebreathe should be the minimum.. this will introduce moisture and when the scrubber is at its lowerst performance you are on the surface.. scrs have a bit more leway especially at high flow rates since co2 is beig discharged with the extra gas..

[caveseeker7]

"Bob, you hear me? Time to move. And bring Stephen!" ;)

[caveseeker7]

deleted

[madmole]

Nope, CE even prevents him exporting I believe

Its a shame as Bob didn't run it as a business and I'm not sure he actually ever made a profit, as he was always tinkering and improving things. Many Thanks "Big Brother" for reporting him to the authorities and removing the main source of safety improvements to the unit we all love

I wish I was rich, cos I'd pay to have the bits CE'd (they'd pass easily) just to keep Bob going. I have at least one of everything Bob has produced for the yellow box, and can honestly say everyone of them was an improvement over the item they replaced and I would buy every single one of them again

Yet again we are poorer due to pen pushers:upset:

Maybe we should start a "Save the Bob" fund and campaigne

[caveseeker7]

Just checked again, there are BCs that don't have the lift capacity label and hence no CE mark. They are 'for export only', yet got tested by German diev mags. Also, it would mean that it is illegal for European companies to manufacture to an export standard that is different than the CE. I rather doubt that. So maybe there is hope for ... the rest of the world. :rolleyes:

You know, with all those requirements for certification you'd think some moron would have thought to include an OC/DSV ... then again, that would have required some sign of intelligence. :upset:

[DrySuitDave]

I don't believe non Britain destined produts need CE certification.

I just got my bob DSV/OC 2 weeks ago and it is just a thing of beauty.

I will check with Bob and see if he can export me another one, then maybe I can do a trade with someone for a new AP ADV and we can settle any money differences......

[madmole]

If thats so, then you guys could buy stuff from Bob, and we could buy it from you and personally import it back into England

Bloody stupid system, but hey, if it lets Bob make some money, and design more gadjects then I'm all for it

I supose Bob could always sell me second had used equipment. Thats not covered by CE, Or He could donate it to the Diver Mole site for testing, and I could buy some very very expensve O rings from him

[fins wake]

... the CE certification is definitely not required for sales outside of the EU. :D

Hopefully, this could be some kind of loophole whereby one could still obtain Bob's products here in Europe. E.g. by buying them in the US and importing them for one's own use ... Yeah, someone could make a living out of this ... :boom:

K.

[DrySuitDave]

Well, if that is the case, then I am willing to buy a few goodies to be shipped here and ship them to you, and I am in the market for an AP ADV and spare 02 cylinder with the burst disc.