Leadership & Agencies

Hi all, I know there has been a lot of discussion about the "best" agency to choose for your open water & advanced certs lately, but I want to tackle it from a slightly different angle. I am thinking about working toward a divemaster certification and would like to know how the various agencies feel about "crossovers". I am a YMCA Advanced OW diver & I will take the SLAM class later this year. I am very pleased with the YMCA program & want to continue with it. But at the same time, if I decide to take a giant stride off of the the corporate ladder, move to the sticks to eat top ramen and be a divemaster, could I work at a PADI or NAUI or SSI shop with a YMCA card? Is a divemaster a divemaster? How tough would it be to aquire the PADI DM cert as a crossover?

thanks!
kate

The only thing I've seen that involves crossover is at the instructor level. Judging by the number of comments I've seen and heard, many instructors do have multiple agency certifications. I would thiink that if a dive shop needs a divemaster they will hire the right person regardless of agency. This of course would not include a shop owner that is affiliated with agnecy "A" and thinks anyone with agency "B" certification is scum of the earth. If you have a good YMCA program available and you like them go with that training and be the best divemaster any divers could hope to dive with. Kind of the same as all the comments that the instructor is more important that what agency issues your C-card.

BTW what does the SLAM stand for?

jbd

JDB,

SLAM = SCUBA Lifesaving and Accident Management = the premier rescue course in the industry, IMHO.

Kate,

Are you looking to be a divemaster leading dives, working on boats, etc? or are you looking to assist with classes?

If the former, it's totally the call of the person doing the hiring. If the latter, you can only assist on classes in the agency in which you hold the DM certification.

I can not use assistants from other agencies (even instructors) in any manner that requires a certified assistant. OTOH, most DM's assisting in classes are volunteers anyway, there's no "hiring" involved.

If you decide to throw away your career and move into diving, you'll want to have an instructor certification before doing it. Even then, I'd recommend against it unless you have the money and business skills to start your own shop/charter operation. If that is your goal, pick a remote tropical location with excellent diving nearby and hire me as Training Director.

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Walter,
NAUI instructors can use certified leaders from any recognized agency as assistants. I find it ironic that I can't use another NAUI inst. (my wife) as an assistant when I teach PADI courses.

Scubakat - It's at the leadership level, IMO, that you really begin to see the difference in agency standards and philisophies. Try to find out what is required for DM in the different agencies. I think you'll find that YMCA standard are quite high, and you'd do well to stay with the "Y" program.

Neil

... where type A can only give to type A/AB, but O on the other hand can give to all types. Then we have Mr. AB who can only give to other AB's.

I am YMCA cert also and was looking at getting other certs for myself. I don't want to do it for a living (though it would be fun) I just want to be expeiranced. How many divemasters out there don't work in the field but help out an instructor or whatever?

Brad
- no sig yet -

NINman - I am currently doing my DM training with PADI and have no plans to do any kind of assistance in the future. Although everyone gets confused as to why I am doing the training, I am doing it for myself....to further my knowledge of diving and to know that I did it for myself and no one else!

Anyway, Scubakat - I am not 100% sure of how it may work merging YMCA with PADI but I have a suggestion.

Go to your local PADI organisation and talk to them about it. Find out if they would be prepared to let you do the DM course with them or ask around for an organisation that is looking to employ DM's and see if you can come to an arrangement of training for employment with them.


Anyway, good luck and I hope you get to do you DM with someone!!!

Kate,

I wouldn't suggest switching to a PADI DM course unless you plan to be a PADI Instructor in the future. If you are serious about actually learning the job of divemaster, stick with YMCA. The PADI DM course produces people to assist in teaching. The course is not oriented toward actually being a divemaster. It completely ignores knots, lines and boat handling. Stay with the Y, the DM course is more comprehensive. I'd also suggest doing an internship as a DM on a charter boat. None of the agencies (that I'm aware of) require this step, but IMHO, they all should. They best way to learn is by doing, especially at this level.

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I would like to eventually teach, but I need to get a lot more experience under my weight belt. When I went to the PADI web site to look at their instructor prereq's, the first thing I saw was a banner yelling "100 logged dives? 6 months as a diver? Go PRO!", Sorry, but I don't want to be that instructor, or her student.

I think that I can get some of the experience I need through a DM program, and some more by diving a lot (I'm in the water at least 2 days per week).

If I end up helping with students, it will probably be with YMCA classes (for now).

I probably won't do anything rash like quit my job & move to the carribean, but if some angel comes along & wants to sponsor me I won't argue . And you're hired Walter! I especially like your internship idea. Though there's only one charter here that I know of that uses a DM. The rest rely on the shop to bring their own.

Maybe after another year or two I'll be ready (or not) to become an instructor.

-kate

"I wouldn't suggest switching to a PADI DM course unless you plan to be a PADI Instructor in the future."

I would agree with this; PADI won't accept a DM from another agency, but will allow you to crossover if you meet the entry requirements to the Instructor Development Course (and subsequent Instructor Examination to become an Open Water Instructor).

"If you are serious about actually learning the job of divemaster, stick with YMCA. The PADI DM course produces people to assist in teaching. The course is not oriented toward actually being a divemaster. It completely ignores knots, lines and boat handling. Stay with the Y, the DM course is more comprehensive. I'd also suggest doing an internship as a DM on a charter boat. None of the agencies (that I'm aware of) require this step, but IMHO, they all should. They best way to learn is by doing, especially at this level."

We've had this discussion before. Boat handling is NOT a divemaster's primary job, so why should it be a pre-requisite for becoming a divemaster? Not EVERY person performing the task of a divemaster does so on a boat, Walter. Just because it is common in YOUR LOCAL DIVE AREA does not mean it is the norm EVERYWHERE.

And if a person DMing does so on a boat, then the person EMPLOYING them in that capacity TRAINS them to handle the boat. Or, as part of their job, they may be required to take and pass an appropriate marine test (eg: USCG "Six Pack" license). I have seen both these scenarios.

Walter, I am not a YMCA Instructor, nor am I affiliated with the YMCA. Therefore I would never presume that reading some YMCA training literature and making a few cursory comparisons based on my OWN OPINIONS as to what constitutes proper training would qualify me to judge YMCA methodology/training veracity versus that of any other agency.

Agency bashing serves no useful purpose. All it does is keep the industry fragmented and belittle recreational dive instruction as a profession.

Isn't it more constructive to build bridges through common goals rather than try to tear down someone else's house?

~SubMariner~

Cheryl,

At least we agree in some areas.

"Boat handling is NOT a divemaster's primary job"

No arguments there. It is however a major part of a DM's job and should be included in the course. Even if you remove boat handling from the job description, lines and knots are still part of the job.

Divemaster to divers, "We'll be diving in strong current on this wreck today and will be using a tag line to prevent anyone from missing the dive. Who knows how to rig it? Lines and knots are not part of MY job."

Seriously Cheryl, I was a working divemaster for several years both on boats and off. I do understand the job.

Holding a US Coast Guard "Captain's" license is not part of the job and demonstrates no ability to handle boats, lines or knots. I picked up my master ticket in '87 without having to demonstrate anything except my ability to pass a written exam that had very little to do with the day to day operation of a vessel. When I was the on board captain, I needed a DM to handle other duties. The jobs are mutually exclusive.

"Not EVERY person performing the task of a divemaster does so on a boat, Walter. Just because it is common in YOUR LOCAL DIVE AREA does not mean it is the norm EVERYWHERE."

Very true, but all DM's should be able to act as a DM on a boat, on a beach with surf or in a quarry. You live in Atlanta, should you not be required to teach your students about diving in the ocean because there's no ocean "in YOUR LOCAL DIVE AREA"? I believe that would be very short sighted. We are all inclined to emphasize those aspects of a class we personally feel are more important or we believe the student is more likely to encounter, but we have an obligation to teach the entire course,

I have not engaged in agency bashing. Abby suggested switching to PADI for the DM course. I pointed out the reasons I didn't feel this would be a particularly
good idea. There are some real weaknesses in the PADI DM program. Anyone contemplating taking the class should be aware of those weaknesses. You believe those omissions are not necessary for DM's, you are certainly welcome to disagree and to state your case.

"Isn't it more constructive to build bridges through common goals rather than try to tear down someone else's house?"

I will work with anyone, regardless of agency affiliation, toward the common goal of excellence in dive education. When I see a poor job being done, I will point it out. If the goal is to get as many people diving as possible, it isn't a common goal. I know there are people in every agency who follow this same path.

I do not consider it tearing down someone's house when I point out a broken window, a leaky roof or a cracked foundation. I believe I have given that person an opportunity to fix the problem. If he places the house up for sale without fixing the problem, the problem should be disclosed to potential buyers.

Too often people try to cover up problems rather than working to fix them. I see problems in the Y program as well, but I'm trying to get changes made to fix those problems. In the meantime, if a question comes up about one of those areas, I'll be as open and critical of the YMCA program as I am of any other.

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