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SeaJay
May 9th, 2003, 01:25 PM
Okay, I was telling a friend about my mistake last weekend which could have had pretty big consequences... And it dawned on me that other people could learn from my mistake, so I think it appropriate to share.

...Even though it might not paint me in such a good light. :( Please be nice, y'all. :rolleyes:

Here's what happened: I got to 91 feet on my second dive of the day, and I knew I had some 12 minutes to dive according to my plan. (I was diving air, as EANx was not available). About five minutes into my dive, my computer was telling me that I still had some 16 minutes to dive. That's when I began believing my computer instead of believing my plan. BIG mistake!

At one point, I remember thinking, "I've been down here a while," and checking my computer. It still said I had 3 minutes of dive time left, so I began an ascent from 91 feet. That should have done me nicely. Unfortunately, two minutes later at 59 feet (I was a little slow to ascend), my computer went into deco. It told me that I now had a ceiling at 10 feet. When I got to 10 feet, it now told me that I was to wait there 12 minutes for a deco stop, and an additional 3 minutes for a "standard safety stop." In other words, I now had a 15 minute deco obligation at 10 feet. Why was this a problem? Well... Because I was supposed to be doing a no-deco dive, and had planned my gas consumption accordingly. I had 600 psi in my tank and a 15 minute deco obligation. That was a little scary.

At the end of 15 minutes, I still had 200 psi left, and so I surfaced with that... But only because I put myself into "total relaxation" mode for my deco stop, in hopes that I could extend my gas consumption as long as possible. My total dive time was 38 minutes... Not at all what I'd planned for. If surface conditions had been rougher or the current stronger, I'd have had increased gas consumption, and therefore an OOG and had to blow my deco.

The problem was that I believed that computer... And it got me into trouble. Luckily, I was able to gas-manage myself out of the situation, but I thought I might have to blow my deco or at least air-share with my buddy (who certainly was low too) which was an uncomfortable thought, especially when I'd done all the correct planning. I had no one to blame but myself.

If instead I'd simply limited my second dive to 12 minutes of bottom time like I was supposed to, then this would not have happened.

...This is not meant to bash computers or whatever... I have not mentioned any brand names. And I have not mentioned the "D" word. This isn't about a dive philosophy or whatever... This is about not sticking to my plan. Stupid.

Furthermore, the computer that I have I would still recommend for it's logging features alone. But what I thought might be an interesting experiment (to "check out what it says") got me into trouble.

That's the last time I do that... :booboo:

Dryglove
May 9th, 2003, 01:31 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
When I got to 10 feet, it now told me that I was to wait there 12 minutes for a deco stop, and an additional 3 minutes for a "standard safety stop."


Hmmm sounds like a Suunto :D Great story about sticking to your dive plan......plan the dive, dive the plan.

Big-t-2538
May 9th, 2003, 01:36 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
This is about not sticking to my plan. Stupid.

That's the last time I do that... :booboo:

That sums it up nicely....BTW...dare I ask why your buddy didn't get a deco obligation, or convince you to thumb the dive earlier?

O-ring
May 9th, 2003, 01:37 PM
Big-t-2538 once bubbled...


That sums it up nicely....BTW...dare I ask why your buddy didn't get a deco obligation, or convince you to thumb the dive earlier?
What did your buddy's computer say?

SeaJay
May 9th, 2003, 01:37 PM
lal7176 once bubbled...

Hmmm sounds like a Suunto :D


Uhhh, yep. I mean, "no comment." :D Works best in gauge mode, I think. :D

Uncle Pug
May 9th, 2003, 01:40 PM
CRYB

Blue Space
May 9th, 2003, 01:42 PM
With the Suunto. And yes we all know its a Suunto he posted what he was buying for crying out load. :bonk:

O-ring
May 9th, 2003, 01:44 PM
Blue Space once bubbled...
With the Suunto. And yes we all know its a Suunto he posted what he was buying for crying out load. :bonk:
Being wrong, no...giving a ridiculously long deco at a ridiculously shallow depth, yes.

Dryglove
May 9th, 2003, 01:45 PM
Blue Space once bubbled...
With the Suunto. And yes we all know its a Suunto he posted what he was buying for crying out load. :bonk:

Lucky guess on my part. Suunto is the only computer that i know of that displays a count down for a 3min safety stop.

And no i have never had a problem with my Suunto.

diveski01
May 9th, 2003, 01:45 PM
Big-t-2538 once bubbled...


That sums it up nicely....BTW...dare I ask why your buddy didn't get a deco obligation, or convince you to thumb the dive earlier?

Since you've taken "that one class", you KNOW full well these ?'s are coming:

1) You DID have a buddy, DIDN'T YOU????

2) Did you have your DIRF "NDL" times in your wetnotes on you?

3) What was your rock bottom for the dive?

4) What was your useable gas plan for the dive? 1/2's, 1/3's, all?

ibnygator
May 9th, 2003, 01:47 PM
Do you believe that the computer incorrectly showed the deco obligation? If not, why wouldn't it show it prior to your beginning your ascent?

I'm very curious because I use a Suunto Vyper...

Dryglove
May 9th, 2003, 01:48 PM
Oh oh, am i smelling a solo dive here :D

SeaJay
May 9th, 2003, 01:49 PM
Big-t-2538 once bubbled...


That sums it up nicely....BTW...dare I ask why your buddy didn't get a deco obligation, or convince you to thumb the dive earlier?


O-ring one bubbled...

What did your buddy's computer say?


Oh, man... Now I'm in REAL trouble. :(

My buddy wasn't wearing a computer. He had also come from out of state, and had brought a pair of steel 120's filled with EAN32. Thus, there was nothing wrong with HIS dive profile. Just mine. He did express concern towards the end of the dive about my profile, as his buddy awareness skills were excellent.

In short, my buddy planned his dive, and dove his plan. He had a better profile than I did because he used the right gas, too. And he stuck with me the whole time, surfacing because I needed to, even though he didn't.

Sure, he could have donated to me... And in fact, it would have been a good thing, since he was using EAN32. But given that he surfaced with just 500 psi, he wasn't really in a position to be donating.

...So yes, we had a couple of bailout options. But that's not the point. The point is that I did something really stupid when I believed that computer...

Crispy
May 9th, 2003, 01:51 PM
SeaJay,

Is your computer air integrated?

-Crispy

Big-t-2538
May 9th, 2003, 01:54 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...

He had also come from out of state, and had brought a pair of steel 120's filled with EAN32. Thus, there was nothing wrong with HIS dive profile.

<snip>

Sure, he could have donated to me... And in fact, it would have been a good thing, since he was using EAN32. But given that he surfaced with just 500 psi, he wasn't really in a position to be donating.


Just out of curiosity, was he diving the 120s as single tanks (1 dive for each tank?)....if so, good thing you 2 didn't have any emergnecies...especially with his gas...his consumption had to be higher than yours.

SeaJay
May 9th, 2003, 02:06 PM
ibnygator once bubbled...
Do you believe that the computer incorrectly showed the deco obligation? If not, why wouldn't it show it prior to your beginning your ascent?

I'm very curious because I use a Suunto Vyper...

No, I don't think that it "incorrectly" showed my deco obligation. I think it did exactly what it was programmed to do. I think it showed exactly what it's alogarithm computed. Now, about that alogarithm... It does seem very conservative.

I think the reason why I suddenly went into a deco obligation was because I was making regular "dips" to about 90 feet from about 75 feet. I think was cruising along at 75 feet or so, then "dipped" to 91 feet, at which time I thought to myself subconsciously, "Hey, I'm getting deeper, and I've been down here a while, so let's check the gauges" and I looked, to see that I had 3 minutes of NDL. I turned the dive within 10 or 15 seconds or so, rising immediately to 75 feet, and then swimming for one minute or so to the anchor line. This whole time I was ongassing, which meant that I should have been using that 3 minutes... In fact, it should have immediately gone from 3 minutes of NDL left to maybe 4 of NDL left because of the fact that I rose from 91' to 75'. Unfortunately, because of the combination of the fact that I was still ongassing and that I took a minute to find my upline, I blew my NDL by the time I got to 60 feet. Mind you, though, I did not take but maybe 2 minutes to get to 60 feet... So I thought I was still fine. However, I believe that that point where 3 minutes was shown at 91 feet was a sort of "lag." I don't think that number was accurate... I think that it was showing 3 minutes at 75' or so, and that I'd outswum my computer and it had not yet calculated an NDL at 91 feet. I think that it would have put me into deco right then and there.

raviepoo
May 9th, 2003, 02:08 PM
Suunto computers are conservative for the first few dives of a multiple dive series. If you compare a Suunto to a less conservative computer on the first (also the second i think) dive of a series you will see that the Suunto allows for less bottom time. After a few dives the difference evens out and both computers will show similar no deco times.

If Seajay had been using a different computer he might not have had a deco obligation. However, if he had blown off the deco obligation with the rationalle, "Hey, it's a conservative computer and my buddy doesn't have a deco obligation!" the computer would have locked him out.

I threw my Viper into deco once by diving with the computer set to the wrong 02 percentage. (Long story. Set the computer too long before the dive, the setting didn't hold, defaulted to 21% and shame on me for not checking before the dive.) I did the deco anyway, although I knew it wasn't necessary based on my dive plan. That is a mistake I will NEVER make again.

There's nothing wrong with the computer. Conservative is better than the alternative.


ibnygator once bubbled...
Do you believe that the computer incorrectly showed the deco obligation? If not, why wouldn't it show it prior to your beginning your ascent?

I'm very curious because I use a Suunto Vyper...

Scubaroo
May 9th, 2003, 02:13 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
something about 75 to 91 to 75 to 91 and then something about NDLs for 3 minutes blah blah blahSuuntos are very conservative computers - see if you can track down Rodale's reviews on computers and conservatism, they're right down there at the "safe but short dive" end of the scale. My buddy's Cochran will often have NDLs of 10 or 15 minutes longer on the second dive, but we always surface according to the most conservative computer as a buddy team.

Good thing about the Suuntos though is that they really push you towards using them as a bottom timer instead to get around the conservatism :tease: Planning on taking that route.

SeaJay
May 9th, 2003, 02:20 PM
Big-t-2538 once bubbled...


Just out of curiosity, was he diving the 120s as single tanks (1 dive for each tank?)....


Yes.



if so, good thing you 2 didn't have any emergnecies...especially with his gas...his consumption had to be higher than yours.

We DID have an emergency. I blew my NDL, which was a problem because I did plan on needing gas for deco. Effectively, I did not have enough gas, and knew it fifteen minutes ahead of time. Believe me, as I hung there at 10', checking my gauge every minute or so (what was I expecting, for it to INCREASE?) it felt like every bit of an emergency.

...But I understand what you are saying... What if HE'D had the emergency? We'd have been dangerously low on gas...

Don't forget that we were not diving overhead... No deco obligation (was the idea anyway) and no places to get ourselves in trouble on the wreck (no true penetration). My point is that we could have thumbed the dive at any point, since we had a straight shot to the surface... And thus, the rule of thirds wasn't necessary. Effectively, this was a true open water dive, and so the situation that you describe... The threat of not being able to support a buddy... Wasn't really realistically a threat.

That is, until the end of the dive.

And that WAS the emergency. That's what I got so freaked out about.

Zagnut
May 9th, 2003, 02:22 PM
..and you can tell me if this is a dumb question or not.

Off gassing at your safety stop occurs during the process of breathing. If you slow your breathing down to conserve air on your safety stop, aren't you also slowing down the offgassing process? Wouldn't this increase the time required for the deco stop? It seems like conserving air at the safety stop would be detrimental to the whole deco stop process.

Your thoughts please...

Northeastwrecks
May 9th, 2003, 02:38 PM
nt

GeekDiver
May 9th, 2003, 03:30 PM
I once had a similer experance but it didn't put me into a deco mode. I have a Cobra. Had been making repetive multilevel dives 2-3 dives a day for 3 days. On the last dive I was at 40' or so still had a bit of air and the computer showed more dive time left before deco than air. remaining. A pod of dolphins showed up and I went to 15' to check them out and take pics. My buddy and the D/M stayed at 40 ft. When the dolphins left I still had showing a longer dive time than air so I droped back to 40 ft for a couple of mins and checked out a puffer fish. The computer gave me a stop message on the decent back to 40' but still showed I had dive time left. On the accent it added an extra min to the safety stop. According to the computer (I also roughly check out my dive profile useing a padi wheel) I never busted a NDL but because of the bounce profile at the end of the dive it added to the safety stop. Could have been since you "bounced from 70' down to 90' that it became more conservative and penilized you. I understand that the Suuntos are very conservative when it comes to a sawtooth, Bounce or reverse dive profile.

WreckWriter
May 9th, 2003, 03:33 PM
Suunto computers are known for long shallow stops. I once ran my Vyper in air computer mode on a 180/20 dive and it wanted me to do all my stops at 10'. Problem is that if you don't, it locks out. They're great in gauge mode but that's it.

WW

Spectre
May 9th, 2003, 03:38 PM
Ok. I'm going to try and steer away from the obvious questions regarding why you planned for 12 and then threw that plan out and started diving your computer.

However playing with my suunto planner, I can't for the life of me figure out how you could have encurred a 12 minute deco obligation. You seem to imply a lot of bouncing in your dive, and that's going to cost you.

However can you download the profile, and give us the profile numbers for all the dives in the series and the surface interval times? I tried running it and had to overstay for almost 40% longer than the NDL to get the thing to kick to 12 minutes deco @ 10.

Zagnut
May 9th, 2003, 03:40 PM
Anyone have any insight to my earlier post


Off gassing at your safety stop occurs during the process of breathing. If you slow your breathing down to conserve air on your safety stop, aren't you also slowing down the offgassing process? Wouldn't this increase the time required for the deco stop? It seems like conserving air at the safety stop would be detrimental to the whole deco stop process.

If I were in SeaJay's fins on this particular safety stop, I would have not conserved my air like SeaJay did. I would have breathed normally and sucked my tank all the way down to maximize the offgassing process... would this have been the right thing to do?

Anyone?...

MASS-Diver
May 9th, 2003, 04:37 PM
I'm really not sure, but, my guess would be that lowering your breathing rate (by relaxing for example) would NOT have much an effect on offgasing, you would just breath off more N2 per breath, with the total ammount off-gased within 5 minutes (for example) being the same whether you have a RR of 10 or 20 breaths/per/min, provided you are not breathing shallow/skip breathing.

Off-gasing is mostly a function of perfusion (the blood going to the lungs), the ventilation just blows it off.

Again, this is just my guess. I'd conseve the air and stay down as long I could.

Pez de Diablo
May 9th, 2003, 04:50 PM
MASS-Diver once bubbled...
Snip

Again, this is just my guess. I'd conserve the air and stay down as long I could.

I'm with you, it's the time on the stop not the respirations that off the N2.

After diving with a few people on Suuntos, I certainly would not buy one, ridiculously long deco time at ridiculously shallow depth.

SeaJay
May 9th, 2003, 04:54 PM
Spectre once bubbled...
However can you download the profile, and give us the profile numbers for all the dives in the series and the surface interval times? I tried running it and had to overstay for almost 40% longer than the NDL to get the thing to kick to 12 minutes deco @ 10.

Sure, man... Maybe you can shed a little more light on this.

Okay, dive 1, salt water, AL80 (77.4 cuft of 21%), 3000 psi.:

0-5 min: decended to 90' constantly
5-15 min: "bottom" of dive, max depth of 102', but averaging about 95'
15-28 min "hung" at 75 feet
28-31 min ascend to 18 feet
31-34 min safety stop at 15 feet
34 min: END. Roughly 700 psi left.

Surface interval: 1 hour, six minutes (apparently longer than I remember - perhaps I'd forgotten to add in time for gearing up and all)

Dive 2, salt water, AL80 (77.4 cuft of 21%), 3100 psi.:

0-3 min: descend to 75'
3-5 min: ascend to 65'
5-7 min: descend to 86'
7-10 min: ascend to 80'
10-12 min: descend to 94'
12-13 min: ascend to 71'
13-16 min: level at 72'
16-18 min: descend to 98' (rock bottom; interestingly, my logbook shows 1 minute of NDL, not what I saw as I described... 3 min NDL. As I said, I think I overswam the computer at this point.)
20 min: My logbook says that my dive computer showed 0 NDL at 88 feet. From here, I quickly begin to add deco time.
20-30 min (!): I ascend at a constant rate to just under a 10-foot ceiling (holy smokes! That's a perfect 8 ft/min for ten minutes! I mean, the graph's got a perfectly straight line...) I max my deco obligation at 45' and at 27 minutes to be a whopping 18 minutes of deco.
30-42 minutes: 12 minute deco at just under 10 feet, including the 3 minute "safety" stop.
42 min: END. Roughly 150 psi left (!).

Wow... How amazingly educational...

leadweight
May 9th, 2003, 04:54 PM
Over 50% of the responses to my poll on computers were users of Suunto computers. I don't have one, but they sure are popular with the members of this board. There were a few that checked the bottom timer box, but not that many.

The behavior of Seajay's computer is consistent with some other profiles of fellow divers that I have seen, where a deco obligation is incurred on a second deep dive of the day and rather than clearing on the ascent the legnth of the stop increases.

Pez de Diablo
May 9th, 2003, 05:01 PM
The Oceanic cleared 17 minutes sooner than the Suunto

A wall dive . We planned this dive for 15 minutes at 130 feet for a total run time of 29 minutes including deco on EAN 44 - deco time was minimal so we didn’t need to go to a higher % O2 so we just topped up a our 40 cf cylinders that were at EAN60 with clean air – and we stilled planned to dive our air computers until they cleared any deco obligations.

We dove the profile as outlined following our run time to depth right on the nose this time. Our last stop was planned to 15 feet and it was at 33 minutes into the dive my Oceanic (again only programmed on air) computer cleared any deco obligation. However the Suuntos didn’t clear until 50 minutes into the dive. I had the most fun watching the barnacles scooping in nutrients with their little feather like appendages; they were all over the wall at 15 feet.

Spectre
May 9th, 2003, 05:56 PM
I'm not really sure how this has anything to do with the computer, other than it got SeaJay out of the water after a royal CF.

His plan was 12 minutes. Looking at the simulation after his first dive, the Suunto computer would have told him his NDL for 100 was 12 minutes.

At 12 minutes he began his ascent. He screwed up in that he wasn't back at the anchor line, but whatever...

So he got to the anchor... Instead of continuing to ascend, he rode his computer down to 98 feet for 4+ minutes...

I ran the simulation out with that 4 minute CF removed... as if he ascended to 72 feet, swam to the anchor, and proceeded with his ascent from that point. In water time: 30 minutes. No deco ceiling.

So if your plan was 12, and the computer algorithm told you 12, why did you think that being at 98 16 minutes into your dive was "believing the computer"?

IMHO the computer got your ass out of the fire.

Tell me this. what would you have done if you happened to find yourself at 98 feet 4 minutes past your planned time if you didn't have the computer to walk you through your deco?

Actually, I guess what I really want to ask is what the hell were you thinking when you decided to blow plan?

SeaJay
May 9th, 2003, 06:51 PM
Well, I did screw up. That's all there is to it. And no, it's not appropriate to blame it on my computer. However, it did add to the problem.

If I wasn't using the computer at all, I'd have done my second dive at 12 minutes... Plain and simple. Instead, at the point where I turned the dive, my computer was reading "3 minutes," not "1 minute." I know the log doesn't show that, but perhaps I looked at the 'puter a few seconds before actual rock bottom. However it happened, I understood three minutes, not one.

Nonetheless, computers don't do square profiles... In other words, as I ascend, the NDL display INCREASES. My key was to never hit zero, but I did. That's what put me into deco. I saw three minutes and turned the dive, but it wasn't enough. I was already too close. I wasn't but maybe 20 feet or so from the anchor line... But getting to it, communicating with my buddy, thumbing the dive, and beginning the ascent apparently took more than a minute. Also, I was still ongassing for many feet... Which also took me past zero in my NDL.

So, mistake number one was cutting it that close. Again, that's something that I would not have done had I been diving my plan, which was 12 minutes surface-to-surface. Instead, I thought, "I'll ascend when this thing tells me it's okay and that way get a few more minutes out of my dive."

Mistake number two, which wasn't obvious until I posted that profile, was taking a whopping 10 minutes to ascend to my "safety stop." I'm not sure why I did this... I don't remember consciously thinking to slow my ascent so much. I was aiming for 30 ft/min, not 8! This second mistake was the real reason why I went into deco, I think.



So if your plan was 12, and the computer algorithm told you 12, why did you think that being at 98 16 minutes into your dive was "believing the computer"?


Well, because I wasn't 12 minutes at 100'... It was a multilevel dive. And my dumbass thought that perhaps the computer, which had been with me the entire dive, was more accurate, since it had real data to go on instead of "the plan." When it said "three minutes," and I took two, I thought I was fine. Unfortunately, that was not correct. I should have stuck to the plan.

The fact that the plan - both with and without the computer - was the same, only proves the validity of the plan, which I ignored. Instead, I went by the "real data" that was on my wrist, which promptly put me into deco.

The lesson isn't to avoid computers, IMHO... It's to dive the plan. The fact that I can create an accurate plan with or without the computer makes me wonder why I spent $400 on a computer.

And frankly, if I hadn't had the "false security" of that thing on my wrist, I'd have never tried to push it. I'd have simply been back on the surface at 12 minutes... Or I probably would have made sure I had a rock bottom of 80 feet at 20 minutes total dive time instead, or something equivalent.



IMHO the computer got your ass out of the fire.


Hm. Well, I can certainly see that point of view, but I believe that the best way to have avoided this whole shebang would have been to dive my plan.



Tell me this. what would you have done if you happened to find yourself at 98 feet 4 minutes past your planned time if you didn't have the computer to walk you through your deco?


1. I should have taken better care not to get myself into that situation.

2. Assuming the above situation, I'd have done the following: In my PADI OW class, I was taught that if I blow my tables for no more than five minutes, then I'm to ascent to 15 feet and do a deco stop for no less than 8 minutes. If I added a normal 3 minute "safety stop" of 3 minutes to the mix, then I'd have decoed for a total of 11 minutes at 15 feet... Very similar to the 12 minutes at 10 feet that my computer mandated. There's more, too... No flying for 24 hours... No diving for 6... You know, standard stuff. This is all printed right on the PADI OW tables.

That's the extent of my training. I have not been taught decompression technique yet... Another reason why I should not have blown my tables like I did. Instead, I made decisions based on the information that was given to me which was a mistake... I should have stuck to my plan.



Actually, I guess what I really want to ask is what the hell were you thinking when you decided to blow plan?


Lol... Great question. Maybe others can learn from my mistake if they just understand what I was thinking at the time. Maybe then they can recognize it and avoid it like I should have.

I was thinking, "Hey, cool... This gizmo on my wrist says that it's okay to be down here another three minutes... Maybe I can get just a couple more bubbles in. I love diving!"

Spectre
May 9th, 2003, 08:13 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Mistake number two, which wasn't obvious until I posted that profile, was taking a whopping 10 minutes to ascend to my "safety stop." I'm not sure why I did this... I don't remember consciously thinking to slow my ascent so much. I was aiming for 30 ft/min, not 8! This second mistake was the real reason why I went into deco, I think.


Bingo. That's where your real problem was. The biggest lesson here is that the bottom time clock doesn't stop when you begin your ascent. If that was the case we could drop to 120 and spend a day ascending... 'cause we're ascending.

What you did was you dove the computer, and then ignored it for your ascent. There _is_ such a thing as too slow.

In your Dive Manager, go into the profile stuff for those dives. Scribble down all the numbers. Then go into the simulator and re-create the dives.

Now start playing around.

What you are going to find is that when you were sitting at 98 ft @ around 18 minutes, if you ascended at 30 ft/min; you would have hit 15 without incurring any deco obligation.

Even a 20 ft/min ascent wouldn't have caused a deco obligation.

Your minor mistake was changing the dive plan. Your major mistake was switching to a new dive plan [your computer] and then throwing that out when you started your ascent.

SeaJay
May 9th, 2003, 08:51 PM
Spectre once bubbled...


Bingo. That's where your real problem was. The biggest lesson here is that the bottom time clock doesn't stop when you begin your ascent. If that was the case we could drop to 120 and spend a day ascending... 'cause we're ascending.

What you did was you dove the computer, and then ignored it for your ascent. There _is_ such a thing as too slow.


Yep, that's exactly what happened. I began my ascent, but continued to ongas past my NDL. By the time I got to a depth where I was offgassing, I'd already earned a good bit of deco. 18 minutes of it. By the time I got to my ceiling, that had fallen to 12 minutes.

...Which is what I have grown accustomed to with this computer. As I rise, I get more NDL time, or in this case, a shorter deco time... Which is what I expected, and did not get, when I began my ascent from 98'. Instead, I ongassed past my NDL. Now that I think about it, perhaps that's why I was so slow to ascend... I was wondering, "WTF??"

I believe that the major problem was that I ascended too slowly. But that in itself would not have created the problem... It was combined with the fact that I was already too close to the edge of my NDL and I went over the edge.

...Which wouldn't have been a big deal, really... Except that I did not have enough gas to do so.

...So three solutions, then, are the result of our discussion:

1. Shorter bottom time.

2. Quicker ascent rate.

3. Be prepared for deco or don't deco.

Any one of those three would have solved the problem. Of course, any one of these three would have been the result of sticking to my dive plan, too, doncha think?

MikeFerrara
May 9th, 2003, 09:16 PM
Well, I'm not going to say much here except that I think everyone is missing the real lesson.

SeaJay
May 9th, 2003, 09:37 PM
What's the "real lesson" here?

MASS-Diver
May 9th, 2003, 11:02 PM
(Aside from diving your plan) to write down in advance your deco times (from a table or program) in case you overstay your bottom time or exceed you depth (for a multi-level you could figure it on the fly using the UP method of time below 3 atms + time above

. Either way, the point would be not rely on your computer to take you through deco, since it will probably give you way overly conservative times that your gas supply may not allow.

Pez de Diablo
May 9th, 2003, 11:18 PM
MASS-Diver once bubbled...
[BSnip..
. Either way, the point would be not rely on your computer to take you through deco, since it will probably give you way overly conservative times that your gas supply may not allow. [/B]
I disagree, my Oceanic is so liberal I would want to stay in the water for every single minute that it specified if it gave me a deco obligation.

navy85
May 9th, 2003, 11:31 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
...Maybe others can learn from my mistake if they just understand what I was thinking at the time. Maybe then they can recognize it and avoid it like I should have.
SeaJay - as a relatively new, inexperienced diver, thanks for having the guts to share your experience and endure a few pokes. I am gaining a better understanding of dive computers, their limitations, NDLs and of course the reasons for diving your plan as a result of this thread.

BTW, my parents live in Summerville (and I am an SHS alumni - Go Greenwave). If I have time to dive next time I'm there, I'll look you up - I've never been diving in the area.

jiveturkey
May 9th, 2003, 11:40 PM
You have some pretty serious peaks and valleys in your profile. I wonder if this has anything to do with the long deco time. I don't know exactly how much movement it takes for nitrogen to come out of solution but I wouldn't be comfortable yo-yoing more than a meter or 2. Your Suunto probably doesn't like it either.

Spectre
May 9th, 2003, 11:45 PM
MASS-Diver once bubbled...
(Aside from diving your plan) to write down in advance your deco times (from a table or program) in case you overstay your bottom time or exceed you depth (for a multi-level you could figure it on the fly using the UP method of time below 3 atms + time above


Sure... that works if you're trained for deco diving, and with that comes a gas supply that is planned to deal with the overstayed time....

SeaJay
May 10th, 2003, 12:06 AM
navy85 once bubbled...

SeaJay - as a relatively new, inexperienced diver, thanks for having the guts to share your experience and endure a few pokes.


Hehehee... "Par for the course" around here. ;)



I am gaining a better understanding of dive computers, their limitations, NDLs and of course the reasons for diving your plan as a result of this thread.


Very cool. I learned a lot as a result of the dive, too, and sharing the experience - so that others could benefit too - was the main objective to putting myself up for ridicule. :D I'm thrilled that you're finding use for it. Maybe it'll help to keep someone else a little safer, too.



BTW, my parents live in Summerville (and I am an SHS alumni - Go Greenwave). If I have time to dive next time I'm there, I'll look you up - I've never been diving in the area.

Pfffttt... That's right up the street!

Yes, you've got to come dive with us! Check the website address in my signature line.



jiveturkey once bubbled...
You have some pretty serious peaks and valleys in your profile. I wonder if this has anything to do with the long deco time. I don't know exactly how much movement it takes for nitrogen to come out of solution but I wouldn't be comfortable yo-yoing more than a meter or 2. Your Suunto probably doesn't like it either.


Yeah, I was waiting for someone to notice that, especially on my second dive. I thought for sure I was getting "nailed to the cross" for that one! I'm surprised that it took this long for anyone to notice.

The reason for the "yo-yo-ing" was because the dive was on our local "big wreck" out here. Each up and down was the slight decent and ascent over wreckage. I'd swim along the deck of the boat and descend down into it's enormous holds, checking for anything that was cool. These holds were like 50' wide and 50' across, and maybe 30' deep, and missing altogether their enormous topside hold doors; thus it was never a true penetration. Pretty amazing stuff, really, and a very cool dive.

But you're right... That made for a less-than-ideal dive profile, and that might have been a contributor.

For the record, I think that most of the "spikes' were 10-15 feet (2 meters or so) each, with one exception to maybe 20 feet (a little over 3 meters).

But yeah, the profile was resultingly a little "spikey."

GearHead
May 10th, 2003, 12:20 AM
Even those that use their Suunto's in gauge mode still have access to a valuable tool it provides: The Ascent Rate Indicator.

I believe it's on the far right of all of their units (I've only got experience with the Mosquito and Vytec), and it's dead easy to use. At the end of your dive, I recommend that it's use to ensure that you're not going up too fast . . . or even too slow. :)

Jeblis
May 10th, 2003, 07:11 AM
Even at the surface some of your slow tissues are still on gassing as fast tissue (at higher pressure than the neighboring slow tissue) is off gassing.

After playing around with my suunto's simulate features I always go shallow long before I get near the NDL.

Cave Diver
May 10th, 2003, 08:37 AM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Instead, at the point where I turned the dive, my computer was reading "3 minutes," not "1 minute." I know the log doesn't show that, but perhaps I looked at the 'puter a few seconds before actual rock bottom. However it happened, I understood three minutes, not one.


And maybe you were just narc'd outta your mind diving air at 90' and not reading/thinking/comprehending clearly, or your reactions were severely delayed...:)

Spectre
May 10th, 2003, 09:06 AM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Yeah, I was waiting for someone to notice that, especially on my second dive. I thought for sure I was getting "nailed to the cross" for that one! I'm surprised that it took this long for anyone to notice.

I noticed... but looking at the rest of the picture it seemed to be the least of the issues.

I have, however, seen the suunto algorithm freak out when yoyoing. I was checking and moving some lobster traps. Basic profile was 3 minutes @ 18 feet, bounce up to 9 and back down. 10 minutes max depth 19 ft. 16 minute surface interval, 20 ft for 8 minutes surface and return. 4 minutes @ 20 ft. Surface and return. zigzagging between 16 and 10 for 4 minutes. Dive time 20 minutes, max depth 20 feet.

When I began my final ascent, I got a 10 ft ceiling for 4 minutes.

When I downloaded the profile, It didn't show the ceiling I saw. Sometimes the ceiling is just something that pops up when your ascent is going too fast.

Genesis
May 10th, 2003, 09:22 AM
having seen it a couple of times.

The reason for the "ceiling" warning is microbubble suppression - their algorythm REALLY does not like fast ascents or anything else that produces microbubbles, and it will attempt to get you to do a "mandatory" deco obligation to suppress them if it doesn't like what you're doing.

They were unable to tell me though if it would hard-violate (e.g. "ER") if I ignored the ceiling designation in that situation - that is, is this really advisory or is it a truly mandatory stop.

Some day I might do a "simulated" dive with my Vytec by hooking it to a fishing line and weight, sending it down to 60' or so, then cranking it up beyond the ascent rate to intentionally violate it and see if it raises hell. I should be able to get it out of the water and look at it with the "ceiling" display still up there before it goes into error mode (3 minutes.)

Nanook
May 10th, 2003, 06:21 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...


In short, my buddy planned his dive, and dove his plan. He had a better profile than I did because he used the right gas, too. And he stuck with me the whole time, surfacing because I needed to, even though he didn't.



BS. You're buddy can't have a different plan than you. Comeon... you drink the koolaid.

You both either have the same plan, or you were diving solo. Simple as that.

And then diving dissimilar gases? Then you both needed to plan the dives as air dives.

I think you need better training and you should rethink your diving philosophy. You have too much of a jumble of information from various agencies.
You speak so highly of your DIRF experience, but throw it all away on this dive.


Summarize:
1. Don't dive air
2. Plan your dive
3. Dive your plan
4. You and your buddy have the SAME plan
5. get more training
6. understand your training
7. understand and heed your limitations, whether they are physical OR mental

SeaJay
May 10th, 2003, 09:43 PM
What a troll...

C'mon, man... Even I can see that one!

*yawn*

JeffAustin
May 10th, 2003, 09:51 PM
especially if you are diving air. An hour S.I. is minimum with 32 EANx, not air. I like an hour and a half S.I. when diving 32 EANx, you are not saddled with ridiculous short bottom times on repetitive dives if you give yourself a reasonable S.I.

Put your Suunto in gauge mode and trust your plan.;)

SeaJay
May 10th, 2003, 10:36 PM
JeffAustin once bubbled...

Put your Suunto in gauge mode and trust your plan.;)

Bingo. :D

Uncle Pug
May 10th, 2003, 11:02 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
What a troll...
C'mon, man... Even I can see that one!
*yawn*
that isn't a troll... he has a point... how can you and your buddy have different plans?

SeaJay
May 11th, 2003, 01:31 AM
UP, that's totally a troll. The guy's a sockpuppet. I don't know for who, though. 3 posts? Ever? And he knows the term "koolaid?"

I call troll. No offense, UP, but you think that *I* have trolled, which I haven't... Likewise with other members. Thus, I've come to not trust your judgement when you call who's trollin'.

Nobody dove solo. His reference to that is silly and nothing but inflammatory.

I've already mentioned the problem that dive... I did not dive my plan. Why he needs to mention it in numbers two and three on his "list" is simply to flame. Troll.

Numbers five and six, in reference to my training, is another needless flame. He has no idea how much training I've had, or to what extent, or to what level I understood them. I'm proud of the little bit of training that I've had... Rescue, Divemaster, Advanced, and recently, DIR-F. Sure, there's a lot more to be had, but his statements are broad, pointless, inflammatory, and insinuate that I have not grasped the training that I've had... Which is untrue. Again, that's just a troll.

Number seven is totally redundant. The very fact that I came here and shared my mistake and what I DIDN'T know means that I understand my limitations... Or at least that I need to understand them better. Again, this is nothing but inflammatory and redundant. Again, a troll.

Sorry, man... I'm sticking to my gut instinct that this is a sockpuppet troll.

...But since my beloved Uncle Pug asked...

We didn't dive different plans. My buddy's plan was to stick to me, which he did. My gas choice was the limiting factor.

Why did I choose 21% over 32%? Because that's what was available to me, and that's what I've been trained on.

Cave Diver
May 11th, 2003, 09:51 AM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Sorry, man... I'm sticking to my gut instinct that this is a sockpuppet troll.

...But since my beloved Uncle Pug asked...

We didn't dive different plans. My buddy's plan was to stick to me, which he did. My gas choice was the limiting factor.

Why did I choose 21% over 32%? Because that's what was available to me, and that's what I've been trained on.

You may be right, especially since all three of his posts have been direct responses to you (the other two were your "Jetfins Question" post).

Choosing to dive air because you weren't nitrox certified was the correct choice. Your buddy should have planned his dive as an air dive, even tho he was using nitrox, and that would have given him an extra margin of safety.

The biggest problem I saw was your deviation from your dive plan, and although my original comment about narcosis was in jest, I wonder if it may not have had some bearing on your decisions?

Spectre
May 11th, 2003, 12:44 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
We didn't dive different plans. My buddy's plan was to stick to me,

Hmm... this could be one of two things. Either you didn't share the plan with your buddy, or your buddy didn't have any plan.

If you and your buddy didn't have different plans, your buddy would have thrown you the thumb at 12 minutes.

Cave Diver
May 11th, 2003, 12:59 PM
Spectre once bubbled...


Hmm... this could be one of two things. Either you didn't share the plan with your buddy, or your buddy didn't have any plan.

If you and your buddy didn't have different plans, your buddy would have thrown you the thumb at 12 minutes.

Exactly. When the time limit is hit, or the first person hits the agreed upon turn pressure its :thumb:

Uncle Pug
May 11th, 2003, 01:08 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
my buddy planned his dive, and dove his plan. He had a better profile than I did because he used the right gas, too
************
Sorry, man... I'm sticking to my gut instinct that this is a sockpuppet troll.
************
We didn't dive different plans. My buddy's plan was to stick to me, which he did.
You are confused about *trolls*, *flames* and *sockpuppets* among other things (like *profile*.)

Certainly the poster is a *sockpuppet* but just as certainly is not a *troll*.

The post is legitimate (imo) and not merely inflamatory though it might be considered a *flame*.

If your buddy *planned* his dive and dove his *plan* but that *plan* was simply to stick with you while you followed your *plan* then I think you are both confused about the word *plan* as well.

Nanook's points 1-7 seem fair to me.

roturner
May 11th, 2003, 01:53 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Okay, I was telling a friend about my mistake last weekend which could have had pretty big consequences... And it dawned on me that other people could learn from my mistake, so I think it appropriate to share.

<snip>

Aside from the rest of it, have you considered informing Suunto about this? From the description of your dive it seems like a really odd thing for a computer to do.

R..

SeaJay
May 11th, 2003, 04:32 PM
And crunched with V-planner, my Suunto Dive Manager software, and my dive computer.

It all started on yesterday's dive. I was doing another one of my zero vis fossil dives, and my mind began to wander. Of course, it wandered to the second 'Ross dive, the one in question here on this thread.

I ended up ending my dive somewhere around 6pm, and went home. I didn't even get out of my wetsuit until after 3am. I sat in it all night and played with dive software.

I think Spectre has a point here. I think that a good part of the problem was that I shoulda turned the dive sooner. After all, let's think about this...

1. The NDL displayed on the face of the computer is really this: The amount of time left below the floor of my dive. In other words, I need to be sure that by the time it hits zero, I'm at a depth that allows me to begin offgassing. According to Suunto, that point was 35 feet. In other words, I needed to be at 35 feet or above before my NDL display hit zero. If I was at 98 feet and saw "3 minutes," that meant that I had three minutes to get above 35 feet, or face a deco obligation.

2. The bottom line is that however it happened, I was not above the floor (35 feet) before those three minutes were up. Plain and simple.

3. The whole situation could have been avoided with this tactic. I might have begun my ascent before my three minutes were up, but that wasn't enough... I needed to be above floor before my three minutes were up. So like Spectre said, I simply rose too slow... Or didn't give myself enough time to ascend; whichever way you want to look at it.

...So how can this be solved in the future?

Well, if I'm diving my computer, it means that I need to get above the floor before my NDL hits zero... Not "turn the dive at zero," or even "turn the dive close to zero."

Bottom line: I used my computer incorrectly. Unfortunately, I had to use it incorrectly before understanding how to use it correctly.

I still maintain that had I simply dived my plan, that would have worked also. However, this would have resulted in much shorter dive times. Let's look at this, according to V-planner:

1st dive: 101 foot max. 22 minutes on air. 73.9 cuft of air used.
2nd dive: 98 foot max. 13 minutes on air. (Anything longer puts me into deco.) Less than 40 cuft of air used.

According to Suunto's computer:

1st dive: 101 foot max. 34 minutes of dive time, including a 3 minute safety stop. 74 cuft of air used.
2nd dive: 98 foot max. 23 minutes of dive time, including a 3 minute safety stop. (Anything longer puts me into deco.) 68 cuft of air used.

Bottom line: I get more time out of the Suunto than the V-planner because it's real data taken at the real time. In other words, it's not a square profile like the V-planner uses.

...So what is the "big picture?" Well... I'd like to master both methods. But I think my "Big Mistake" was not understanding the urgency of "3 minutes." Now I know.

...And I'd like to have excellent skills at working profiles using both of these methods, as well as the "quick" method of estimation and just sitting down and working regular ol' PADI tables, too.

Simple. Complete. Period.

SeaJay
May 11th, 2003, 04:56 PM
Uncle Pug once bubbled...

You are confused about *trolls*, *flames* and *sockpuppets* among other things (like *profile*.)


You know, if there's one person on this board who will admit when he's wrong or when he doesn't understand something, it's me. But I am not *confused* about any of the things you mention. I can assure you that I would admit it if I was.

Of course, if it's your opinion that I'm confused, then you're welcome to it. Sorry, I don't agree.



Certainly the poster is a *sockpuppet* but just as certainly is not a *troll*.


Sorry you feel that way.



The post is legitimate (imo) and not merely inflamatory though it might be considered a *flame*.


Fair enough. I don't agree.



If your buddy *planned* his dive and dove his *plan* but that *plan* was simply to stick with you while you followed your *plan* then I think you are both confused about the word *plan* as well.


Nope. There's no confusion.

I didn't stick to my *plan.* There's no confusion. That was my whole point with this thread.

I know exactly what a *plan* is. So does my buddy. His *plan* was perfectly legitimate, and yes, he expressed some concern at 12 minutes. I already mentioned that.

The problem was that I didn't stick to the plan. That's my whole point. He, on the other hand, utilized some of his built in "safety margin" due to his EANx to stick with his buddy.

Question for you, UP: What would YOU have done if your buddy decided he'd dive "a little longer" because the gizmo on his wrist said it was okay? Would you have blown your plan, or would you have left your buddy?

There is no confusion on what the term *plan* means. I made a decision to change it when presented with different data... Which was the mistake that I freely admitted, and recommend against doing.

In fact, while I was doing it, I thought to myself, "I wonder what would happen if I used that three minutes..." and decided to try "changing the plan." I did this at that time because the ramifications were managable at that point, and because I was questioning the tenant of "Plan the dive, dive the plan." My result, predictably, was a problem, which I managed with some of my other dive skills.



Nanook's points 1-7 seem fair to me.


Fair enough. I already mentioned above why I don't agree. I can see that I'm not going to change your opinion. I respect that, and I still love my Uncle Pug. :D

Likewise, I've spent the past 800 posts or so asking questions and sharing whatever I've learned... I've spent the past year or so doing some serious learning, too... And I've spent many thousands of dollars on dive education. I am consistently the top in my class in those courses as well, and I grew up on the local waters... So in addition to all of my formal training, I have a very good practical experience with water.

I know enough to say that I know for sure that I do not know it all. But I do know enough to be confident enough in myself to say, "I made a mistake," and "This is why." Having someone attack my credentials or my understanding or my education or my skills is unacceptable.

...And to have you come in and blatantly support someone who you KNOW is a sockpuppet (something that I believe is against Scubaboard TOS) is also unacceptable.

Kayla
May 11th, 2003, 05:36 PM
you made it back safely!:)


Kayla:)

Spectre
May 11th, 2003, 05:39 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Question for you, UP: What would YOU have done if your buddy decided he'd dive "a little longer" because the gizmo on his wrist said it was okay? Would you have blown your plan, or would you have left your buddy?


I know the question is for Pug, but I'm probably sure my answer will be the same as his.

:thumb:

You thumb the dive.

CuriousMe
May 11th, 2003, 05:54 PM
Spectre once bubbled...


I know the question is for Pug, but I'm probably sure my answer will be the same as his.

:thumb:

You thumb the dive.

I've been following/lurking through the thread and this is one point I keep coming back to. SeaJay, I understand and respect you posting this which allows many to learn from your mistake. But, did your buddy thumb the dive at 12 minutes and you communicated somehow that you wanted to stay longer? And then they just went along with this?

If that's the case, neither you or your buddy followed the dive plan....cause I think we can agree that "sticking with your buddy" isn't really a dive plan...that's buddy skills, not a plan. A plan should at least have time, depth, turning pressure and a general goal (even if that goal is just to look around in that direction till we turn around <grin>), right?

Anyway, just my .02...thanks for letting us dissect your dive...it's been an interesting exercise and very informative.

Most of all, I'm glad that the lesson wasn't to expensive, and that everyone came out healthy, and wiser. :)

Peace,
Cathie

Nanook
May 11th, 2003, 06:00 PM
you posted this publicly. It's nice of you to allow all of your mistakes to be aired publicly to try and keep others from making the same mistakes.

I hadn't realized I have only replied to your posts. I like to read, and only reply when a thread includes statements so blatently wrong. Sorry that has only happened to you.

I didn't attack your considerable skills before, but since you bring it up:

1. Following a dive plan is simple, one of the things covered in basic open water classes, and then emphasized in followon training. Maybe you can get a refund.

2. Spend some of that money on nitrox training. Should be one of the first things a diver does after basic ow.

3. trying to rationalize your mistake with statements like " My result, predictably, was a problem, which I managed with some of my other dive skills." are humorous. Have you had deco training to provide these skills? Are you relying too much on your "internet training"?

4. You insist that you blew your plan, yet your buddy dove his plan. There is only one plan. The dive plan. Not your plan, your buddies plan, or the "I'll figure it out as I go" plan. Just a dive plan. Simple as that.

5. Where were you taught the ascent rate of 8ft/min.? And any computer I've ever seen does not go from 3 minutes ndl to deco while ascending. It will continuously readjust the ndl. Isn't that why people use them for multilevel diving? If you leave the bottom with 3 minutes ndl, the ndl time will increase, unless maybe you take 30 minutes to reach the point where offgassing will start.


Flaming? If you don't want people commenting on your diving skills, then don't post . I haven't said anything untrue. I was trying to be nice with my previous statement "get more training". You have proved that you need it. Every post you make reinforces that fact.

Sorry that you don't want to hear the truth.
How's this to sooth your ego:
Great job Seajay. I knew you could overcome any mistakes you make in the water. You are better than a fish. Maybe you can start your own training agency to teach others those great skills.

Dive within your training

Waterlover
May 11th, 2003, 06:24 PM
TROLL!!!!!!

Uncle Pug
May 11th, 2003, 06:46 PM
Waterlover once bubbled...
TROLL!!!!!!
are you suggesting that Nanook is really a Seajay sockpuppet using megaproxy to post counterpoints to his own thread thereby trolling us all??? :wacko:

Nah... :rolleyes:

roturner
May 11th, 2003, 07:08 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
And crunched with V-planner, my Suunto Dive Manager software, and my dive computer.

<snip>

I've never used a Suunto computer but all the ones I've ever used display zero when it's time to start ascending. Are you saying the Suunto computers don't do that?

R..

CuriousMe
May 11th, 2003, 07:21 PM
roturner once bubbled...


I've never used a Suunto computer but all the ones I've ever used display zero when it's time to start ascending. Are you saying the Suunto computers don't do that?

R..

I dive with a Cobra (have a Mosquito as a backup)....but I guess I never considered that 0 was the time to start ascending...that's like running to the end of the table....why dive at the limits (I might add theoretical limits). Personally, I like more of a margin.

Peace,
Cathie

Charlie99
May 11th, 2003, 07:54 PM
roturner once bubbled...
I've never used a Suunto computer but all the ones I've ever used display zero when it's time to start ascending. Are you saying the Suunto computers don't do that?
R..
Those computers have an assumed ascent rate for which the NDL is calculated. In all cases I know of, that ascent rate is much faster than the 8 feet per minute actually used by SeaJay.

SeaJay -- if you look at decompresssion literature for stuff on "Hill vs. Haldane" you will see that your ascent profile is far from ideal.

You would have done much better with a 30fpm ascent to an initial stop of a 1-2 minutes around 50' -- but I'm sure that you saw that when using V-planner, or any of the tested programs such as Decoplanner or GAP.

Charlie

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 12:38 AM
Okay, I'm keeping a good attitude about this. :D

Let me respond to each comment here, since they're really good ones. No, I'm not being sarcastic. I really mean that.



Spectre once bubbled...

You thumb the dive.


Fair enough, man. He didn't, though. Cool if that's what you would have done.



CuriousMe once bubbled...

But, did your buddy thumb the dive at 12 minutes and you communicated somehow that you wanted to stay longer? And then they just went along with this?


No. My buddy pointed to his bottom timer and did the "open hands" signal, saying to me that we'd hit our turn time. I signaled okay, checked my 'puter, and signaled, "four minutes," if I remember correctly. He signaled back, "okay." I'm sure that his thought process was, "Okay, dude... Your choice. I've got gas." Of course, that's speculation, but that probably wasn't far from the truth. We were centered around the upline, and about a minute later we began our ascent anyway... So the plan wasn't deviated far. Really, my only deviation from the plan was a hesitation of about a minute.

But then I began to ascend very slowly. Too slow, in fact. These two, in combination, were the real deviation from the plan.

My point is that before you tear into me or my buddy, remember that it's not like we dramatically blew off all of our plan... We only deviated slightly. Soooo... Tear into me slightly. Don't overdo it. :D



CuriousMe once bubbled...

Anyway, just my .02...thanks for letting us dissect your dive...it's been an interesting exercise and very informative.


Of course!

Someone else wrote me offlist and told me, "If everyone on this board posted their mess ups, we wouldn't have enough bandwidth. You just happened to do that and now everyone is jumping on you. What's important here? You learn from your mistake."

I'm glad that what I did and the results can be shared. I learned from the experience... I hope that others do too.

Glad you see it as useful. I've enjoyed this thread, even though some have found it irresistable to flame.



Nanook once bubbled...

you posted this publicly. It's nice of you to allow all of your mistakes to be aired publicly to try and keep others from making the same mistakes.


Well, thank you, Nanook. :) I wasn't going to validate your sockpuppet existence with a response, but since you're so pleasant, I will: Thank you.



Nanook once bubbled...

I hadn't realized I have only replied to your posts. I like to read, and only reply when a thread includes statements so blatently wrong. Sorry that has only happened to you.


Actually, you're responding to something that someone else pointed out, so your response shouldn't be directed at me... But whatever.

I wasn't counting... Only noticing your newness here, as well as your abrasiveness (everyone else seemed to control their SeaJay bashing but you) and most of all, your plain violation of Scubaboard TOS. Then I noticed Uncle Pug's condoning of your violation, which I thought bizarre...



Nanook once bubbled...

I didn't attack your considerable skills before, but since you bring it up:


I'm flattered that you think my skills are "considerable." I feel like I've just begun. I don't consider them "considerable." I will state, however, that I am proud of what I do have, and am working on higher ones.



Nanook once bubbled...

1. Following a dive plan is simple, one of the things covered in basic open water classes, and then emphasized in followon training. Maybe you can get a refund.


Nice. Very impressive flame. Sour, yet subdued and backhanded nicely.



Nanook once bubbled...

2. Spend some of that money on nitrox training. Should be one of the first things a diver does after basic ow.


Yessir. I will do that, sir. Of course, since the closest place that offers 'trox is nearly two hours away, should I also dive every dive on 'trox? Would that be to your liking, sir? :rolleyes:



Nanook once bubbled...

3. trying to rationalize your mistake with statements like " My result, predictably, was a problem, which I managed with some of my other dive skills." are humorous. Have you had deco training to provide these skills? Are you relying too much on your "internet training"?


No. Specifically, I was referring to what saved my ***... My low SAC, which is something that I've worked on very hard for the past hundred dives. The flip side, though, is that yes, I have been trained on what to do if I exceed my NDL... 15 feet for eight minutes. Sure, it's not "the art of deco," but it can be argued that I did not exceed my training that dive, even by accident.



Nanook once bubbled...

4. You insist that you blew your plan, yet your buddy dove his plan. There is only one plan. The dive plan. Not your plan, your buddies plan, or the "I'll figure it out as I go" plan. Just a dive plan. Simple as that.


Ah, I see. Next time I'll call you first to check and make sure that you approve of my plan. Thanks for caring.



Nanook once bubbled...

5. Where were you taught the ascent rate of 8ft/min.?


Actually, nowhere. I was taught not to EXCEED 30 fpm, though... So technically, 8 ft/min qualifies.

But that's not the point. I believe I was the one who told *you* that I rose too slow. Did you really feel the need to publicly repackage that and throw it back in my face?



Nanook once bubbled...

And any computer I've ever seen does not go from 3 minutes ndl to deco while ascending.


Hm. Well, then you need to do some more diving. I'll address that with someone else's question below.



Nanook once bubbled...

It will continuously readjust the ndl. Isn't that why people use them for multilevel diving?


Right. That's exactly what I thought... And why I figured that leaving the bottom with 3 minutes of NDL would suffice. It didn't. Even if I'd had an ascent rate of 30 fpm, if I'd been at 100 feet with zero NDL left, I'd have earned a deco obligation by the time I hit "floor." That's the whole point to this thread.



Nanook once bubbled...

Flaming? If you don't want people commenting on your diving skills, then don't post.


You know, if this is the way people are treated when they share their experiences when they committed a mistake, then you might get your wish. I can take your abuse... But many people, I believe, are going to avoid posting their mistakes, which otherwise would be very beneficial for the whole diving community. Instead, you and your abuse encourage people to keep quiet about it all. Is that beneficial for the board? Do others then learn from those mistakes? Do the "real problems" get the opportunity to surface?

I don't care if some guy with three posts ever comes in and shoots his mouth off at me. I can take it. But for the rest of the posters here, I ask you to please be nice.



Nanook once bubbled...

I haven't said anything untrue.


They would be much truer statements if they'd been preceeded with the phrase, "It's my opinion that..." For example, "It's my opinion that you need more training" would have been a truer statement than, "You need more training."



Uncle Pug once bubbled...

are you suggesting that Nanook is really a Seajay sockpuppet using megaproxy to post counterpoints to his own thread thereby trolling us all???


Heheheeee... Now I have a "megaproxy?" Cool! I always wanted one of those! :D



roturner once bubbled...

I've never used a Suunto computer but all the ones I've ever used display zero when it's time to start ascending. Are you saying the Suunto computers don't do that?


Yes. At least, I can say this with the Suunto computers. I have dived an Oceanic and a Dive Rite, too, but I never got to try that theory out, as both dives were relatively shallow.

But I can't imagine that other computers are any different.

Guys, this is really important... And what I learned last night when I was playing around with all of the software. It's the reason why I overstayed my NDL (and let's face it... That was the "emergency"... The whole thing. I didn't die. And thank you, Kayla, for the well-wishes).

I could have dove my plan. That would have prevented me from going into deco. Plain and simple, I should have done this and didn't.

But Spectre had a point when he said that I could have safely dived my computer too... But didn't. Here's why:

Let's say I'm at 100 feet, and looking to stay within my NDL's. Let me use the example of a diver using a 'puter so that I can better demonstrate the problem: Obviously, if I stay at 100 feet, the NDL minutes (the big ones on my Suunto product) would count down to zero. (And beyond.) However, if I ascend up to say, 20 feet, those NDL minutes begin to INCREASE. The point at which the NDL minutes remain the same is called the "floor." In physiological terms, a diver at the floor is neither ongassing nor offgassing. In other words, he is neither increasing nor decreasing the amount of dissolved nitrogen in his tissues. There's all sorts of interesting physiological things that happen at the floor, and it's got it's own characteristics... But I'll let someone better educated on that talk about that. :0

Okay... Back to the computer... The point is to never let your NDL minutes go past zero, right? So it makes sense that you'd want to turn your dive before it hits zero, right? Well, that's exactly what I did on this dive, and I still went into deco.

The reason is because I was still below the floor. According to my Suunto computer, floor on that dive was 35 feet. I left the bottom at three minutes of NDL left, but since I rose at only 8 feet per minute, those three minutes were used going from 98 feet to 74 feet... Still below the floor. Therefore I went into deco.

In my particular case, ascending at 30 feet per minute would have solved the problem. Spectre pointed that out... If I'd left 98 feet with 3 minutes of NDL left at 30 fpm, it would have taken me a tick over two minutes to reach floor - 35 feet. Thus, I'd have barely made it in time.

However, it's not difficult to figure other scenarios where you could get yourself in trouble... Like ending a 110' dive with two minutes of NDL left and such. Or a very slow ascent rate... Or whatever.

So no, you can't run it down to zero before leaving. And "leaving a minute or two" isn't even enough.

So what are solutions to the problem I had? Well, I could have simply stuck to my plan, which was a square profile, "dead reckoning" plan and would have resulted in less dive time, but would have been safe. I could have also ascended at a normal rate of ascent - 30 fpm. That would have *barely* solved my problem, but then I'd have not learned anything. The real solution - if I was going to dive a computer - was to leave enough NDL time to ascend to floor before zero.

Spectre
May 12th, 2003, 01:12 AM
SeaJay once bubbled...
No. My buddy pointed to his bottom timer and did the "open hands" signal, saying to me that we'd hit our turn time. I signaled okay, checked my 'puter, and signaled, "four minutes," if I remember correctly. He signaled back, "okay."

I'm not really intending to hijack or steer this thread off on a tangent, but ...well... I'm gonna.

I feel an important part in the choice of dive buddies is someone that is going to step up and question you if they don't believe you are making the best decision. I've done it, and I've had it done to me, and I expect that my buddies in the future will see fit to continue to do it. If they disagree with a decision, there is one easy, unquestionable, solution... the thumb.

Actually just yesterday we were out diving... two groups of two doing skills training. Yes, we were only in 10 feet of water. Yes, the request I received was a reasonable request; however given the fact that we were training, I felt obligated to overrule their suggestion.

Situation: My team [dive team #1] went to pull the reel while dive team #2 waited at the flag. We returned to the flag and one of the members of team #2 signaled his buddy was cold and heading to the surface. He wanted to group up with my buddy and I for our tour dive. I shook my head no, I pointed at him and his buddy and I told them to ascend. He looked a little confused, and repeated his 'him cold, him surfacing, me with you'. I repeated my "no, you him surface'. They did. I looked a my buddy, pointed to the flag and asked him to grab it while I finished dealing with my reel. When that was done, I looked at him, and thumbed so we could deal with the change in plan.

I explained after the dive exactly why. #1. Sure, leaving your buddy to ascend alone in 10 feet of water when the air temp is in the high 60s is probably fine... but the dive was a training dive, and that means in my eyes it's a training dive from start to finish. #2 my buddy was close enough to see us, but not close enough in my opinion to see the communication between myself and team #2; he needs to be present for any dive plan change decisions so he can reserve the right to overrule. #3 I've not been in the water with the guy requesting to join the group before. I'm not sure he knows how to correctly execute in a 3 member group. I don't feel it worthy to write out a tome on how to dive in a group of 3 in my wetnotes while his buddy waits shivering.

So even though I couldn't thumb 'our' dive, because we weren't together, I felt it appropriate to thumb their dive for them. And if the situation were reversed, and they had reasons to not go with my suggestion; then I have every expectation that they would overrule me and thumb my dive as well.

Not that I ever really have a point, but my point here is simply... Make sure you dive with a plan that everyone involved understands, and that everyone involved is assertive enough to enforce it when you don't.

Uncle Pug
May 12th, 2003, 01:18 AM
SeaJay once bubbled...
My low SAC, which is something that I've worked on very hard for the past hundred dives.
what did you figure your SAC to be for this dive? Some where around .7 or so?

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 02:05 AM
.58.

I'm gettin' better. :D

I've had dives in the low 40's. That's been my personal best. .43, to be exact, even with a little current.

I think it was a little elevated for that dive because of all of the swimming we did around that big boat. :D

It wouldn't have surprised me to have been in the 60's, but the meditation at the end during the stop probably improved the overall rate a little.

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 02:07 AM
Yesterday's fossil dive was .40. ...And there was current there, too. :D

Wow. I'm happy with that. :D

Hey, I just turned 800 posts, too! :D

Why do you ask, anyway?

Uncle Pug
May 12th, 2003, 03:07 AM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Why do you ask, anyway?
...your critical mistake was not over staying your time but over staying your gas.

That might be attributed to thinking your SAC is better than it actually is.

You would be better off planning the working portion of your dive at .7 SAC.

That said... there really was nothing wrong in taking plenty of time shallow and using the gas you had. Probably something you should actually include in your plan anyway... BTW your SAC for that 15 minutes at 10' was something like .53.

Se7en
May 12th, 2003, 03:16 AM
I'm reading all the trolling and flaming, and have to admit I don't get it.
A few minutes of deco, more or less, won't kill you. Drowning will.

For rec dives like this, I'd dive my computer or my plan, or anything I felt like. BUT I'd make damm sure that I had enough gas to get me and my buddy back to the surface, with lots to spare.

Seajay - you're a big guy. Stop putzing around with small singles and take enough gas so it's not a problem anymore. If you had been wearing double 80s, then the dive profile would not have been a concern at all.

Se7en

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 03:25 AM
Uncle Pug once bubbled...

BTW your SAC for that 15 minutes at 10' was something like .53.

Interesting. That's 400 psi in 15 minutes at 10'? Does it improve if we say that I actually hung at 11 or 12 feet, to stay under ceiling? :D What about the fact that 400 psi in an empty tank is actually less volume than 400 psi in a full tank?

:D Sorry; Just trying to improve the numbers. :D

Very interesting point on overstaying the gas. Planning for a working SAC of .7 should have meant that I should have planned for an even shorter dive than my NDL would have allowed.

On both dives.

Uncle Pug
May 12th, 2003, 03:37 AM
SeaJay once bubbled...
:D Sorry; Just trying to improve the numbers.:D
Don't try to fudge the numbers down.

Fudge them up.

Improve your actual rate of consumption but still take plenty of gas.

budgy
May 12th, 2003, 05:03 AM
Plan your first dive max btm time within the naval no deco stop zone, do your 2nd dive in the no limit zone.
When you reach half pressure in your cylinder (100 bar) head for around 5m in the no limit zone and enjoy your diving until you reach reserve.
When ascending go slower than your slowest bubble. (50bar)
Do short 30 sec stops when ascending every 10m. Give yourself a 3min stop at 5m.
Maybe its just over cautious nonsense :D

roturner
May 12th, 2003, 07:51 AM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Okay, I'm keeping a good attitude about this. :D

<snip><snip>

Got it. Don't take this personally, but it seems like what you're actually saying in essence is that you didn't use your computer the way it was intended and you got yourself in trouble.

Which begs the question. When you saw it was going to go into deco didn't it occur to you to find your way to 18 metres at the "normal" speed and then slow your ascent from 10 metres to the surface to like a metre per min? I'm assuming you choose to ascend so slowly for a reason but it seems to me in that situtation you would have been better off getting off the bottom and slowing your ascent to a crawl in shallow water..... just thinking out loud.

Obviously there are better ways to plan (I won't go there) but given the circumstances--namely, not being sure if you had enough air to work off what was becoming an unknown deco obligation--surely a little faster ascent would have been preferable. Why did you stick to your guns when you saw it was going pear-shaped?

R..

Spectre
May 12th, 2003, 08:18 AM
Uncle Pug once bubbled...
BTW your SAC for that 15 minutes at 10' was something like .53.

How'd you get that number?

The dive plan description had times 30-42 @ 10, so 12 minutes not 15. I saw your .53 number, and it didn't fit with the numbers that I calculated out on friday. So I re-ran my numbers about 10 times.

What I see is that his Dive was a .73 SAC rate, with .727 working and .742 resting [based on an average dive depth of 49 feet using 2950 psi; and then the resting portion being 12 minutes @ 10 feet with a starting psi of 600 and an ending psi of 150].

CuriousMe
May 12th, 2003, 10:18 AM
SeaJay once bubbled...
<snip>
No. My buddy pointed to his bottom timer and did the "open hands" signal, saying to me that we'd hit our turn time. I signaled okay, checked my 'puter, and signaled, "four minutes," if I remember correctly. He signaled back, "okay." I'm sure that his thought process was, "Okay, dude... Your choice. I've got gas." Of course, that's speculation, but that probably wasn't far from the truth.

Not to be overly picky (but after all, that's what a post-mortem on a dive is for though...to find the fault points?). but I think we have different defintions....If my buddy and I are planning on a twelve minute dive....I don't give the turn signal at twelve minutes, I give the thumb. We always turn the dive somewhere in the middle..now I'm not trying to split hairs here....it would just change how I responded to my buddy. I think that as you've already said, the primary mistake was deviating from the plan, but it could have ended right there if you're buddy held you to the plan you both agreed to.


SeaJay once bubbled...
We were centered around the upline, and about a minute later we began our ascent anyway... So the plan wasn't deviated far. Really, my only deviation from the plan was a hesitation of about a minute.

Now forgive me here...I'm not a math wizard (really, no sarcasm here...math's not my strongest point.) But from your account of what happened, you planned on 12 minutes, about 5 minutes into the dive you noticed your comp said that you had 16 minutes (when according to plan you should have had 7), you then started your ascent when your comp said you had 3 minutes NDL. To me that means you stayed down 6 minutes past your dive plan, not inconsequential at 91 feet...it was half again of your original dive plan.


SeaJay once bubbled...
But then I began to ascend very slowly. Too slow, in fact. These two, in combination, were the real deviation from the plan.

My point is that before you tear into me or my buddy, remember that it's not like we dramatically blew off all of our plan... We only deviated slightly. Soooo... Tear into me slightly. Don't overdo it. :D <snip>


No tearing here, just pointing out unemotional facts, we can't really all learn from this unless we do.

In my opinion though, it wasn't a slight deviation, especially when the fact that your buddy was essentially diving your computer is factored in.

Again, glad that everyone came out of it healthy.

Peace,
Cathie

Big-t-2538
May 12th, 2003, 10:45 AM
I have a couple of questions in response to some of your concerns...I'm not trying to be a prick, but take this as you wish....

The 'troll' had 7 points, all of which in my opininon were valid....but you poitned out that #'s 2 & 3 didn't need to be seperate....(plan your dive, and dive your plan). In fact how can these not be 2 different points....I can plan dives all day, but diving them is a totally seperate thing...which is what wasn't done in your case and caused the emergency.

As for planning a dive with your buddy...how can the 2 of you not have the same plan? I don't care who is diving what gas where (so long as their not exceeding MODs) there is one plan per buddy group...

As for the SAC rate thing, like UP said, you don't want to fudge numbers down...you want to fudge them up...I have never had an OOA situation, but I sure as hell don't want to experience it. If I plan too low of a SAC, that just might be the case...

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 12:09 PM
Uncle Pug once bubbled...

Don't try to fudge the numbers down.

Fudge them up.

Improve your actual rate of consumption but still take plenty of gas.

UP, I didn't miss that point. My "just trying to improve my numbers" comment was in reference to the SAC of .53... I was jokingly referring to the fact that I was nitpicking to see if I could get a lower number as an estimate for that last 15 minutes.

I completely see your point. I think you missed my humor.

Cave Diver
May 12th, 2003, 12:16 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
What about the fact that 400 psi in an empty tank is actually less volume than 400 psi in a full tank?


Let me see... If I remember my math correctly rated volume divided by working pressure = cubic feet per psi

So a 77.4 cft tank with a working pressure of 3000 psi:

77.4 / 3000 = .0258

.0258 cft x 400 psi yields 10.32 cft of air.

Using 400 psi will mean using 10.32 cft of air regardless of whether it is the first 400 psi you use or the last 400 psi...

Am I missing something here???

Uncle Pug
May 12th, 2003, 12:22 PM
Spectre once bubbled...
How'd you get that number?Wading through the posts I found several different sets of figures but the ones I was using were from a post where he simply said he spent 15 min @ 10'.

so:

15 minutes @ 10'
600psi to 400psi
AL80 77.4cf @ 3000

so:

77.4/3000=.0258 cf/psi
10' = 1.3ATA*
600-200=400psi

so:

.0258 *400=10.32/1.3=7.9/15=.529

But I'm not good at math so feel free to correct it.

However when I just looked at the post where he detailed dives one and two I guessed his SAC for dive one at around .5 but his SAC for dive two at around .7

This made me think that perhaps his planning was off because he credited himself with having a better SAC than he consistently has.

But who knows with these kinds of post where they give the information in drips and drabs. Sometimes it is best to step back and just look at the bigger picture rather than get emeshed in the details.

I think that the best thing you can learn from this is to not over estimate yourself.

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 12:25 PM
Spectre once bubbled...


How'd you get that number?

The dive plan description had times 30-42 @ 10, so 12 minutes not 15. I saw your .53 number, and it didn't fit with the numbers that I calculated out on friday. So I re-ran my numbers about 10 times.

What I see is that his Dive was a .73 SAC rate, with .727 working and .742 resting [based on an average dive depth of 49 feet using 2950 psi; and then the resting portion being 12 minutes @ 10 feet with a starting psi of 600 and an ending psi of 150].

Hmmmm... Spectre, I'm not sure how you got your numbers, but according to my software, which took all of the above into account, I had a SAC rate of .58 for the entire dive... And while it doesn't show me individual rates from one point in the dive to the next (it only shows me overall SAC from beginning to end), I'm confident that I lowered my SAC at the very end of the dive as much as possible.

Either way, .73 is not accurate at all. According to Suunto, my average depth was 53 feet, my starting pressure was 3100 psi, and my ending pressure was 150. Total dive time was 42:40, and max depth was 98 feet. This was the second dive of the day, having started one hour and six minutes after the first one ended. According to Suunto, my average SAC on this dive was .58. Since I was "working" at the bottom, but not during my stop, I believe that my SAC at the stop was probably in the mid 40's or so.

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 12:31 PM
Uncle Pug once bubbled...

This made me think that perhaps his planning was off because he credited himself with having a better SAC than he consistently has.


I'm getting my numbers from the actual data taken on my past 100 dives or so... My Suunto software's got a place where it tells me average SAC per dive.

Uncle Pug
May 12th, 2003, 12:33 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Either way, .73 is not accurate at all.
you didn't post the complete print out of your Suunto dive manager log but gave us snippets... from that we did our best to come up with figures... don't come back saying that we are not accurate. Of course we are not accurate... you didn't give us accuracy to work with.

garbage in garbage out dude.

Uncle Pug
May 12th, 2003, 12:37 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...


I'm getting my numbers from the actual data taken on my past 100 dives or so... My Suunto software's got a place where it tells me average SAC per dive.
Your average SAC will have a whole range of values above that number and if you use it to plan your gas consumption you will continue to do things like this.

You should plan using your highest SAC. Forget trying score a better average dude.

My average is .46 but I plan .7 working and .5 resting.

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 12:55 PM
Aren't we testy?

I've given you everything you asked for. If you wanted more, why not just ask?

Dive one that day. (http://www.islc.net/~bayne/dive1.jpg)

Dive two that day. (http://www.islc.net/~bayne/dive2.jpg)

Spectre
May 12th, 2003, 01:14 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Hmmmm... Spectre, I'm not sure how you got your numbers, but according to my software, which took all of the above into account, I had a SAC rate of .58 for the entire dive... And while it doesn't show me individual rates from one point in the dive to the next (it only shows me overall SAC from beginning to end), I'm confident that I lowered my SAC at the very end of the dive as much as possible.


Ok. What I used for my calculations was the profile that I adapted from your description of your dive. That profile indicated an average depth of 49 feet.

But you say 53. Ok.

53 feet = 2.606 ATA * 42.6667 = 111.192
77.4 cuft / 3000 psi = .0258 * 2950 = 76.11 cu ft

76.11/111.192 = SAC rate .684
----
600 psi - 150 psi = 450 psi.
10 feet = 1.303 ATA * 12 minutes = 15.636
77.4 cuft / 3000 psi = .0258 * 450 = 11.61

11.61/15.636 = .742
---
53 * 42.6667 = ~2261

Now you had 12 minutes @ 10 feet
10 * 12 = 120

2261 - 120 = 2141 / 30.6667 = 69.826 for the average depth of the working portion of your dive.

69.826 = 3.1159 ATA * 30.667 = 95.555

3100 - 600 = 2500 psi = 64.5 cuft

64.5 / 95.555 = .675 SAC rate.

------------------

Of course this is all with the assumed data from your posts and not the real data. I'll check the real data you posted...

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 01:18 PM
Uncle Pug once bubbled...

You should plan using your highest SAC. Forget trying score a better average dude.


Well, that may be true, but I've had SACs at nearly 1.5... In a 6 knot current and while working like a madman.

Does that mean that I should plan my dives around a SAC of 1.5?



Your average SAC will have a whole range of values above that number and if you use it to plan your gas consumption you will continue to do things like this.


Well, I *didn't* "continue to do things like this." I did not have an OOA on this dive. In fact, I've never had an OOA, although I practice it regularly, and have needed to donate during someone else's OOA. This particular dive is the closest I've come to having an OOA myself... Hitting the surface at 200 psi... And that was because I obligated myself to a whopping extra twelve minutes of dive time. I think my gas planning is in fairly good shape when I'm able to handle "accidentally" doubling my dive time. Of course, the cause of the "accident," the fact that I did not stick to my original plan (or did not properly dive my computer, depending on how you look at it) is much more of an issue.

I typically plan for a SAC rate of about .625, or a halfway point between .50 and .75. It's easier to do in my head that way.

And so yes, I understand your point. I got it from the beginning. I'm telling you that my SAC rate is good, and may improve more. My planning relative to my SAC rate is not my current weak point, and was not the issue on this dive.

Spectre
May 12th, 2003, 01:20 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Spectre, I'm not sure how you got your numbers, but according to my software, which took all of the above into account,


My numbers were based on a standard aluminum 80, not a compact aluminum 80.

chrispete
May 12th, 2003, 01:29 PM
Looking at your logbook pages, I have an observation and a question. The first is that you did have an ascent rate violation on the second dive, the second is is reference to your pressure rating on your AL80 - I noticed that you have the 80's rated for 3300 PSI in your setup. What is/are your tank/tanks actually rated at? If they are rated for 3000 PSI, put this number in your setup, otherwise you *will* throw off the SAC calculations of the software, by a wide margin - if you have an overfill, put that as your starting tank pressure... The reason is that if the software thinks that the tank holds 77.4ft^3 at 3300 (42.64PSI/ft^3) and not 3000 (38.76PSI/ft^3), the software bases its calcs on the misconception that you are using less air per cubic foot than you really are. This would explain the differences between your calculations and the other people's calculations...

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 01:33 PM
Spectre once bubbled...


My numbers were based on a standard aluminum 80, not a compact aluminum 80.

That's interesting. Are you talking about the fact that the AL cylinder that I'm using holds only 77.4 cuft?

I'm not using a compact AL80... I'm using a Luxfer S080... Which is standard, and holds 77.4 cuft of air at 3000 psi...

wreckchick
May 12th, 2003, 01:36 PM
this facinating discussion of SAC rate, but besides one minor mention I haven't seen anyone really nail the point that computer NDL limits are not meant to be pushed!! I dive a computer but 5 minutes to NDL for me is for emergencies only. I prefer to stay well above those times and give myself the extra time by going up and staying not pushing times at depth. I have an Aeris computer which I know is more liberal, but I have no intention of ever getting close to the edge of the envelope with it, therefore I have more time if something comes up. To whomever thinks that 0 NDL means it's time to end the dive, you're already at least 5 minutes too late in my book.

Rachel

chrispete
May 12th, 2003, 01:43 PM
That's the point, it holds 77.4ft^3 at 3000PSI, but if you overpressure it to 3100PSI, it is holding 79.98ft^3...

kwesler
May 12th, 2003, 01:44 PM
to say this is the best thread I have read in a while-congrats to all for egos in check and focussing on the interesting, educational stuff!

now, back to our regularly scheduled program!

Ken

Spectre
May 12th, 2003, 01:47 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
I'm not using a compact AL80... I'm using a Luxfer S080... Which is standard, and holds 77.4 cuft of air at 3000 psi...

Exactly. You have it set up as holding 77.4 cuft of air at 3300 psi.

Change that to 3000 and your going to see your SAC rate numbers change quite a bit.

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 01:48 PM
chrispete once bubbled...
The first is that you did have an ascent rate violation on the second dive,


I didn't have an ascent rate violation on my second dive. If you're referring to the bookmark, that's the point at which my NDL became a mandatory deco dive. At that point in my dive, my 'puter sounded an alarm telling me that I'd exceeded my NDL.

There's also two tick marks during deco... On each of those I "bumped the ceiling"... I rose from say, ten feet of depth (where I was supposed to be) to like nine or even eight feet of depth by accident. That day had 6' seas, and so staying at ten feet wasn't easy, with all the wave action. You'll notice, too, that in order to compensate a little, I spent a good bit of my deco at 11 or 12 feet, just to resist that wave action.



the second is is reference to your pressure rating on your AL80 - I noticed that you have the 80's rated for 3300 PSI in your setup. What is/are your tank/tanks actually rated at?


Well, the field in my program calls it "working pressure," and since I regularly get a 10% overfill, I'd used 3300... And you're right... That's not what should be in there. My tanks are rated at 3000 psi.

I replaced the number with 3000 instead, and it recalculated my SAC... .59 for the first dive, and .63 on my second. Yeah, there's a 5/100ths of a liter per minute difference in SAC rate on the second dive... The first was hardly changed. I don't know that I'd call this a "wide margin," but you're right... I had not put the correct number in that field.

Sorry 'bout that!

chrispete
May 12th, 2003, 01:59 PM
Not riding ya man, just bringing up a couple of things that had not been brought up that might help explain some of the issues. :) On your second dive, under the alarms section, it shows two alarms, NDL and ASC - ASC is an ascent rate violation. On the pressures question, it should have created about a 10% error in your SAC rate, I call that a wide margin of error, even though it may not affect the numbers by very much.

Spectre
May 12th, 2003, 02:03 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
I didn't have an ascent rate violation on my second dive.


Yes you did. That's why it says you had an ASC violation.

I'd be willing to guess that the ascent rate violation was from your stop to the surface. It looks to me like you blew from 12 feet or so to the surface within 20 seconds.

Your 8 fpm ascents are better served from your last stop to the surface.

Check the tissue loading charts. Does it theoretically have you at over 100% for one of the compartments at the end of the dive?

I'd be willing to bet that is due to the rapid ascent from your stop to the surface.

Dryglove
May 12th, 2003, 02:04 PM
biscuit7 once bubbled...
this facinating discussion of SAC rate, but besides one minor mention I haven't seen anyone really nail the point that computer NDL limits are not meant to be pushed!! I dive a computer but 5 minutes to NDL for me is for emergencies only. I prefer to stay well above those times and give myself the extra time by going up and staying not pushing times at depth. I have an Aeris computer which I know is more liberal, but I have no intention of ever getting close to the edge of the envelope with it, therefore I have more time if something comes up. To whomever thinks that 0 NDL means it's time to end the dive, you're already at least 5 minutes too late in my book.

Rachel

The instruction booklet for my Vytec says this.......

Gray zone- as the bars reach the gray zone, your no decompression stop time is less than 5 or 10 min and you are getting very close to no-decompression limits. At this point, you should start your ascent towards the surface.

MikeS
May 12th, 2003, 02:04 PM
Seajay,

This has been one of the few useful posts on Scuba board. The number of posters and posts shows that it has got people thinking.

Here’s my 2-cents for whatever it’s worth:

Based on the information you’ve provided I cannot see how your believing your computer got you into trouble.


SeaJay once bubbled...
At one point, I remember thinking, "I've been down here a while," and checking my computer. It still said I had 3 minutes of dive time left, so I began an ascent from 91 feet. That should have done me nicely. Unfortunately, two minutes later at 59 feet (I was a little slow to ascend), my computer went into deco.

We do not have enough information to know what happened here. You could have misread the computer, perhaps estimated airtime versus remaining NDL time, the computer could have malfunctioned, we’ll probably never know.

In your description you talk about “About five minutes into my dive, my computer was telling me that I still had some 16 minutes to dive,” and “At one point, I remember thinking, "I've been down here a while," and checking my computer.”

That is not how I dive with my computer. I always try to keep track of the remaining NDL time as well as depth and air pressure. I check it any time I significantly change depth, just as you should with a depth gauge diving tables.

This thread pointed out something I’ve been doing, if not wrong, at least not totally correct. That is diving based on two separate air mixes while relying on each others computers (or tables, depth gauge and bottom timer) for redundancy.

Still thinking about how to deal with this but the solution that comes to mind is for both divers to dive based on the mix with highest nitrogen content. A potential problem there is that you disable the O2 partial pressure alarm as well as the CNS% and OUT tracking so that’s not a perfect solution either.

Mike

P.S. Keep dogging them rocks!

MikeS
May 12th, 2003, 02:32 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...


That's interesting. Are you talking about the fact that the AL cylinder that I'm using holds only 77.4 cuft?

I'm not using a compact AL80... I'm using a Luxfer S080... Which is standard, and holds 77.4 cuft of air at 3000 psi...

Seajay,

Based on your logs, the cylinder size is set to 77.4 cu ft. with a working pressure of 3300 psi. It shows that your starting pressure is 3100 psi. The computer would interpret this as you only had 72.7 cu ft. (3100 psi in a tank that holds 77.4 cu ft when filled to 3300). This will result in artificially low (6%)SAC rates.

Mike

Nanook
May 12th, 2003, 02:33 PM
you swimming against that 6 kt current? You are superman.



There's also two tick marks during deco... On each of those I "bumped the ceiling"... I rose from say, ten feet of depth (where I was supposed to be) to like nine or even eight feet of depth by accident. That day had 6' seas, and so staying at ten feet wasn't easy, with all the wave action. You'll notice, too, that in order to compensate a little, I spent a good bit of my deco at 11 or 12 feet, just to resist that wave action.

You don't just bump the ceiling. You either do your stop correctly or you don't.


For every post you make, continuing to try and justify your errors, instead of just admitting to the mistake (yes, I realize you have said that it's your fault, and then you go on a 33 page rambling attempt at justifying your actions), I revert to one of my original statements:

Get more training.

Spectre
May 12th, 2003, 02:33 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
We were centered around the upline, and about a minute later we began our ascent anyway... So the plan wasn't deviated far. Really, my only deviation from the plan was a hesitation of about a minute.

Now that I see the true graph of the dive, I'd like to revisit this one.

Do you truely believe you only blew your plan by a couple minutes?

Look at your depth vs. time chart. This is what it looks like in my eyes.

You ended your dive at the deepest portion at your planned time, 12 minutes. You began your ascent. About a minute or so into your ascent you stopped at 70. You then blew off your ascent, and dropped back down to 98. By the time you returned to the point in your ascent where you went back down [70 feet] you were over 10 minutes off schedule.

For a planned 12 minute dive, 10 minutes off schedule is very deviated in my eyes.

In case you're still thinking the computer was overly conservative due to being a couple minutes beyond plan... it wasn't. It's right. You blew your plan by almost double.

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 02:45 PM
chrispete once bubbled...
On your second dive, under the alarms section, it shows two alarms, NDL and ASC - ASC is an ascent rate violation.


Not necessarily.

According to Suunto, an ASC alarm also sounds when the computer switches from NDL time to ASC time (effectively, deco time).

I didn't realize that the printed graphs did not show the alarms. There's three on the second dive... One "yellow triangle" at 22 minutes into the dive, at 85 feet of depth. According to the Suunto help file, a yellow triangle means, "A decompression ceiling first appeared during this interval. The dive computer's ASC indicator appeared." That's what gave the ASC alarm.

There's also two upside-down pink triangles on my graph... One at 32 minutes and the other at 38 minutes. According to the Suunto help file, an upside-down, pink triangle means, "The dive ascended above the decompression ceiling during this interval."

Thus, there is an ASC alarm and a Ceiling alarm in the logbook.


Spectre once bubbled...

Yes you did. That's why it says you had an ASC violation.


Nope. I rose too slowly during this dive. I never exceeded my recommended ascent rate. Heck, I never even got to my recommended ascent rate... Something that I didn't think could really be a problem until now.

I feel like I got pulled over by the police for going too slow. :D


Spectre once bubbled...

I'd be willing to guess that the ascent rate violation was from your stop to the surface. It looks to me like you blew from 12 feet or so to the surface within 20 seconds.


Yeah, it appears on the graph that this might be so, but I didn't. There was no ASC violation at that time.


Spectre once bubbled...

Check the tissue loading charts. Does it theoretically have you at over 100% for one of the compartments at the end of the dive?


I have the highest compartment at exactly 100% when I hit the surface. No doubt I was anxious to get topside the moment my deco ended.


MikeS once bubbled...

Based on the information you’ve provided I cannot see how your believing your computer got you into trouble.


Well, let me be clear on this... This was my fault. We've figured out that there were four possible solutions to this problem of overstaying my NDL. So no, I don't blame this on my computer.

But when I was at 98 feet, and it told me that I still had three minutes, I comprehended that I was golden for three minutes... Which wasn't correct. When I turned the dive, it was less than a minute from the point when I said, "Hey, I've still got three minutes."

And yet I went into deco.

It's not the computer's fault... But it's something to be aware of. "Three minutes" means, "Three minutes to be above the floor," not "three minutes to turn." There is a huge difference, and one that was not made clear in the manual.

ericfine50
May 12th, 2003, 02:48 PM
I can't believe I am going to do this, but - SJ _ don't dive the computer, dive your plan. Going from 70 to 98 back to 70 is a continuation of the dive.

Eric

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 02:54 PM
Nanook once bubbled...
you swimming against that 6 kt current? You are superman.


Actually, if you'd asked me nicely, I'd have told you that I was holding onto a line. Nobody swims at 6 knots.

But what's it to ya, anyway? Never mind... It's just a rhetorical question.



You don't just bump the ceiling. You either do your stop correctly or you don't.


Aw, you're just sore from the last time you spouted off. :D



For every post you make, continuing to try and justify your errors, instead of just admitting to the mistake


Uhhhhh... Hello? Did you see the title of this thread? I believe that the volunteering of this information in the first place was the admission of the mistake.



Get more training.

Repeat after me... "It is my opinion that you need more training." Bold words coming from someone who hides their identity (and own lack of training) with double identities.

Sockpuppets aren't allowed on Scubaboard.

Charlie99
May 12th, 2003, 03:10 PM
biscuit7 once bubbled...
..besides one minor mention I haven't seen anyone really nail the point that computer NDL limits are not meant to be pushed!! .... I have an Aeris computer which I know is more liberal, Rachel I ran the depths/times SeaJay gave through the Dataplus simulator, which is probably the same deco model as your Aeris. It was down to 2 min NDL at 75' on the first dive, and either deco or within 1 minute on the 2nd.

It's OK to push NDL limits or exceed them, provided that you have enough gas to properly decompress --- which wasn't done in this case. As you can see from the tissue sat charts, his medium tissues were still heavily loaded, even after his extended safety stop.

Question 1. for SeaJay: why didn't you just share air for a while? That would have given you a slight additional deco edge since your buddy had 32%, and that would have left a bit more gas on your back to handle any problems while getting onto the boat.

Question 2. Quite a few posts back, you made reference to 18 minutes of deco obligation while passing 45'. Was this really deco time, or was this a calculated "time to ascend" using the ultra slow ascent rate that you had at the time?

Question 3. On the jpg images, the check box "tissue pressures invalid" is checked. Is that something you entered? Is that Suunto saying that the profile made their model invalid?

Charlie

Spectre
May 12th, 2003, 03:14 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
There's also two upside-down pink triangles on my graph... One at 32 minutes and the other at 38 minutes. According to the Suunto help file, an upside-down, pink triangle means, "The dive ascended above the decompression ceiling during this interval."

I'm not sure where this whole sockpuppet accusation came from; but regardless of that, nanook is making some good points.

And here he has another good point. A ceiling is just that... a ceiling. Would you just brush off exceeding an MOD as not a big deal? Why would you brush off breaching a ceiling as no big deal?

Suunto algorithms are going to give you ceilings, but that doesn't necessarily mean you need to stop there. If you're going to ride your computer through deco, you can ride it at 20 feet and be a little better off with the wave action.

Spectre
May 12th, 2003, 03:25 PM
Charlie99 once bubbled...
Question 3. On the jpg images, the check box "tissue pressures invalid" is checked. Is that something you entered? Is that Suunto saying that the profile made their model invalid?


No... it comes up like that until you have the dive manager actually recalculate the dive series. If you select a dive, and graph it, you will see a 'calc' button that either has a red or a green indicator on it. If it's red, then that dive will show 'tissue pressures invalid'. If you tell the dive manager to recalcuate it, the indicator will go green and the dives in that series will no longer have that invalid checkbox on it.

Pez de Diablo
May 12th, 2003, 03:28 PM
Charlie99 once bubbled...
I ran the depths/times SeaJay gave through the Dataplus simulator, which is probably the same deco model as your Aeris. It was down to 2 min NDL at 75' on the first dive, and either deco or within 1 minute on the 2nd.


No they aren't.



Spectre once bubbled...
Suunto algorithms are going to give you ceilings, but that doesn't necessarily mean you need to stop there. If you're going to ride your computer through deco, you can ride it at 20 feet and be a little better off with the wave action.[/B]

So true, most computers show a ceiling of 10 feet, but will credit you even at 20 feet though very slightly slower.

MikeS
May 12th, 2003, 03:35 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...

Well, let me be clear on this... This was my fault. We've figured out that there were four possible solutions to this problem of overstaying my NDL. So no, I don't blame this on my computer.

Who or what was at fault is moot to the point that I was trying to make. Not much can be gained from the blame game.

The only point I was trying to make is that the information provided does not support the hypothesis that computers are bad and should only be used in gauge mode as you somewhat implied.


SeaJay once bubbled...
It's not the computer's fault... But it's something to be aware of. "Three minutes" means, "Three minutes to be above the floor," not "three minutes to turn." There is a huge difference, and one that was not made clear in the manual.

If that is in fact the case, it is certainly something that anyone using the computer should be aware of. Personally, I never observed a “floor” while I still had NDL time remaining. My understanding is the “floor” only comes into plan once computer has gone into deco mode. I confirmed that this is the case with the Cobra demo on the Suunto website.

Mike

Charlie99
May 12th, 2003, 03:43 PM
Pez de Diablo once bubbled...
No they aren't.I stand by my statement that the Aeris computers and the Oceanic DataPlus computers use the same model --- both are Dr Deco's M-values, same as PADI RDP. I didn't say that they were the same as Suunto's, which is another haldanean based model, with hacks to fudge in a bit of RGBM-like behavior.

Charlie

Uncle Pug
May 12th, 2003, 04:21 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Well, that may be true, but I've had SACs at nearly 1.5... In a 6 knot current and while working like a madman.

Does that mean that I should plan my dives around a SAC of 1.5?
...why are you trying so hard to resist good advice by throwing out exagerations?

And why did you even bother to start this thread when all you seem to want to do is debate the insight offered by others?

I'm starting to agree with Waterlover... you are just trolling with this thread... but that is OK... the rest of us have been able to put it to good use and even your self-defense posture has been instructive.

6 kt current. :rolleyes:

Pez de Diablo
May 12th, 2003, 04:37 PM
Charlie99 once bubbled...
I stand by my statement that the Aeris computers and the Oceanic DataPlus computers use the same model --- both are Dr Deco's M-values, same as PADI RDP. I didn't say that they were the same as Suunto's, which is another haldanean based model, with hacks to fudge in a bit of RGBM-like behavior.

Charlie

Duh,

My Bad.

Note to self - Aeris is not Suunto. D

Darn I know that.

Sorry.

GearHead
May 12th, 2003, 05:17 PM
First: 6 knot current?

SeaJay, I recommend you go to dictionary.com and look into the definition of the word "Hyperbole".

Second, judging by this thread and past ones, it sounds like a number of people don't completely understand how the Suunto computers use the RGBM deco algorithm, and how to properly follow the computer's advice.

Let me preface this by saying, I'm just a Suunto CPU user like a lot of others, and the following is what I've learned from reading the manual and using my CPUs (Mosquito and Vytec). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Suunto CPUs enter "deco mode" when one or more of your "tissue compartments" is saturated with Nitrogen in excess of 100% (theoretically). When this happens, and the CPU gives you a "ceiling", it's not saying "get to the ceiling depth asap and stay there until I say you're out of deco", it's saying "under no circumstance should you ascend above that depth until you've done more off-gassing and I say you are out of deco". A lot of important off-gassing happens below 10' and if you run some simulations using your CPU or Suunto Dive Manager software for a deco dive, you'll see that you can exit deco mode by spending time well below 10' and reducing the nitrogen load on the oversaturated compartments.

To clarify: At any point during a dive, if you go into deco but subsequently ascend and get the particular tissue compartment(s) below 100% saturation, the CPU will go back into regular dive mode, and show you an NDL (no deco limit) instead of the ASC indicator. In fact, depending on your level of saturation, during a simulation, you'll see that the ceiling changes depths based on how saturated you are (deeper ceilings for more saturation).

I wonder how many divers were unintentionally bent because they found that they accidentally entered deco and shot up too fast to "get to the ceiling". :( And before you get defensive, SeaJay, I'm not referring to you regarding ascending too fast, because you apparently didn't. But I do assert that you don't understand the "ceiling" concept based on your actions.

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 05:18 PM
Uncle Pug once bubbled...

...why are you trying so hard to resist good advice by throwing out exagerations?

6 kt current. :rolleyes:

:confused:

Whatever. When you pull the anchor and your GPS reads that you're going 7 mph, what's that mean? I dove in that. I didn't see you there.

Pug, denial of factual information *really* clouds the issue. Why don't we just leave it at facts?



And why did you even bother to start this thread when all you seem to want to do is debate the insight offered by others?


I started this thread to share the mistake so that somebody else might not make it. It was secondary to get more insight.

Which we've discussed nicely. When people say, "You rose too fast," I'm going to point to the facts and say, "I rose too slow." That's the whole point of learning, Pug.

I don't see a problem here. Well, except for the blatant violation of TOS...



I'm starting to agree with Waterlover... you are just trolling with this thread... but that is OK...


Oh jeez. :rolleyes:

Whatever, man. Eight pages of discussion later it's just a troll? That just doesn't make any sense, bud.

Last I looked, we were all learning and discussing fine until Nanook threw some flames in... And you fanned them. What's up with that? Why would you do that, Pug?

dvleemin
May 12th, 2003, 05:20 PM
I would really like to hear Mike Ferrara's comments on this.

Darryl

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 05:30 PM
GearHead once bubbled...
First: 6 knot current?


Yep. Welcome to the Lowcountry, where the tide rises and falls a whopping eight to ten feet every day, twice a day. A six knot current is the result of the tide slowing down. :D I wouldn't recommend diving when it's *really* going.

Where are you guys from that you don't see a six knot current?



And before you get defensive, SeaJay, I'm not referring to you regarding ascending too fast, because you apparently didn't.


I'm not defensive. That was an empty accusation by someone here on the board with an unknown bone to pick. If my posts have seemed that way to you, then let me correct that. If I was truly defensive, I wouldn't have posted in the first place.



But I do assert that you don't understand the "ceiling" concept based on your actions.

Feel free to have your opinion.

Just remember, this thread was designed to be productive.

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 05:32 PM
dvleemin once bubbled...
I would really like to hear Mike Ferrara's comments on this.

Darryl

You know, I've been wondering where he is, too! He's overdue! :D

GearHead
May 12th, 2003, 05:42 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...

Feel free to have your opinion.


Thanks, I will.


SeaJay once bubbled...

Just remember, this thread was designed to be productive.

So how was my post non-productive? I'm trying to help you. If you're going to flip your dive-plan mid-dive and go to the computer, you should at least know how to use the CPU, don't you agree?

Uncle Pug
May 12th, 2003, 05:45 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Yep. Welcome to the Lowcountry, where the tide rises and falls a whopping eight to ten feet every day, twice a day. A six knot current is the result of the tide slowing down.
...you have piqued my interest.

Where is this exactly... do you have a location name... or hydrographic station name?

Waterlover
May 12th, 2003, 05:52 PM
dvleemin once bubbled...
I would really like to hear Mike Ferrara's comments on this.

Darryl

He has better things to do than debate with a troll!!!!

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 05:53 PM
Okay, let's get back on track... Flames are pointless, a waste of bandwidth, and only serve to dilute the pertinent information.


Charlie99 once bubbled...

Question 1. for SeaJay: why didn't you just share air for a while? That would have given you a slight additional deco edge since your buddy had 32%, and that would have left a bit more gas on your back to handle any problems while getting onto the boat.


Yeah, I could have done that. I don't like to share air, though, unless I'm really out of air. I think it creates enough potential problems that it should only be used as a last resort measure. Well, okay... A "second to last resort measure," since a "last resort measure" would have been to ditch deco altogether and just surface.

I had enough gas to even permit me to stay the additional "optional" three minute safety stop, which I did. I was there for fifteen minutes, not twelve.



Question 2. Quite a few posts back, you made reference to 18 minutes of deco obligation while passing 45'. Was this really deco time, or was this a calculated "time to ascend" using the ultra slow ascent rate that you had at the time?


Well, that's a great question...

The display on my 'puter said, "18 minutes," and had the ASC flag up... Meaning that I had 18 minutes of deco. Curious to find out exactly what that meant, I found reference to it in the owner's manual:


"The ascent time (ASC TIME) is the minimum amount of time needed to reach the surface in a decompression dive. It includes:

* the time needed to ascend to the ceiling at an ascent rate of 10 m/min (33 ft/min)

plus

*the time needed at the ceiling. The ceiling is the shallowest depth to which you should ascend

plus

* the time needed at the Mandatory Safety Stop (if any)

plus

* the recommended 3 minute safety stop

plus

* the time needed to reach the surface after the ceiling and safety stops have been removed."


So that answers your question, I think. However, I did not do an ascent at 33 ft/min... I did mine at 8 ft/min... Much too slow.

I think that what you were getting at was, "Did you really deco for 18 minutes, or did the numbers simply decrease by the time you got there?"

I can't tell you one way or the other, since an ascent at 8 ft/min really does equate to taking about 3 minutes to get to ceiling - 10 feet.

But I can tell you this... Any time I spent above 35 feet (say I'd stopped at 30, for example) would have resulted in LESS deco time, since that'd be above the floor.

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 05:55 PM
GearHead once bubbled...

So how was my post non-productive? I'm trying to help you. If you're going to flip your dive-plan mid-dive and go to the computer, you should at least know how to use the CPU, don't you agree?

Of course.

Fair enough.

Scubaroo
May 12th, 2003, 06:03 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Whatever. When you pull the anchor and your GPS reads that you're going 7 mph, what's that mean? I dove in that. I didn't see you there.Maybe the wind was blowing your boat?

:confused:

For the record, it's been checked - Nanook is a unique user, and is not posting from the same machine or IP address of any other user on ScubaBoard. Please contact Nanook privately if you wish to establish his/her identity.

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 06:06 PM
Uncle Pug once bubbled...

...you have piqued my interest.

Where is this exactly... do you have a location name... or hydrographic station name?

:D

Sure.

Check this link: http://www.wunderground.com/MAR/AM/352.html

We're right up the river from Bluffton... About four miles or so.

That shows the tides here. They're averaging over nine feet today. Sometimes in the spring they go up to twelve.

I wish I had a way of showing the average current, but it varies widely depending on the lay of the land. Narrow rivers with a lot of water to pass (like our local Morgan River, 150' wide or less at some pinch points) can have a HUGE current... That's exactly why we find all of the fossils right there... Because the huge current tends to excavate them for you.

Of course, washing away all of that mud creates zero visibility conditions...

Which means you're diving in zero vis and LOTS of current (it's typically deminished to about half at the bottom... So... Two or three knots is common at depth).

It's for REAL MEN. :D And women, of course. Lol!!!

Of course, we think Y'ALL are nuts... No way I'd dive that cold water way up there in East Jabip...

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 06:08 PM
Waterlover once bubbled...


He has better things to do than debate with a troll!!!!

Lol... Well, he never had better things to do before... :D

You still think this thread's just a troll? How can you feel that way when there's been so much great info passed around? Nine pages? :wacko:

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 06:14 PM
Scubaroo once bubbled...
Maybe the wind was blowing your boat?

:confused:


Lol... Nope. The water was fairly calm that day... There was little wind.

Funny.



For the record, it's been checked - Nanook is a unique user, and is not posting from the same machine or IP address of any other user on ScubaBoard.

Hmmmmm...

Isn't it possible that they're just using different machines? If they're on dialup, then they'll have a dynamic IP address anyway... In other words, they'll always have a different IP address.

My bet is that my own posts always come from different IP addresses.

Even Uncle Pug mentioned that this person was definitely a sockpuppet. They've got sockpuppet written all over them.

dvleemin
May 12th, 2003, 06:17 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...


Lol... Nope. The water was fairly calm that day... There was little wind.

Funny.



Hmmmmm...

Isn't it possible that they're just using different machines? If they're on dialup, then they'll have a dynamic IP address anyway... In other words, they'll always have a different IP address.

My bet is that my own posts always come from different IP addresses.

Even Uncle Pug mentioned that this person was definitely a sockpuppet. They've got sockpuppet written all over them.

Even with dial-up, where you don't have a static IP, the majority of the time the DHCP server will assign the same IP address to you.

Darryl

Scubaroo
May 12th, 2003, 06:29 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
My bet is that my own posts always come from different IP addresses.Actually your first and last posts in this thread have the same IP. The host is also logged.

Sure someone could log in from a different machine. Ask Nanook directly yourself.

Uncle Pug
May 12th, 2003, 06:36 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
We're right up the river from Bluffton... About four miles or so.
I must not be finding the right place... the most I can come up with in your area using my Tides & Currents program is Hilton Head with a highest value of 2.6 kts on 3-19-03 and 4-17-03 for the past year.

BTW... you asked Gearhead where we were from that we don't see 6 kt currents... well we do see them in places like Deception Pass and Agate Pass.

Friday Seattle will have a 15 foot tidal exchange... but that doesn't produce much current since it is a bay.

However Agate pass will hit 6.9 kts and Deception pass will hit 8.3 kts.

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 06:48 PM
That's cookin'. I've heard about places like that. In fact, I think that Deception Pass was recently featured on the Discovery Channel or something, wasn't it?

The tidal charts I sent you have Bluffton right at the top of them, showing today's 9 foot swing of tides. There are times in the year that it's considerably more.

Do your tides come and go twice daily? That may sound like a silly question... But here, we have two high tides and two low tides in basically a 25-hour period. I understand that there are places in the world that only see one high tide and one low tide per day.

Certainly with a fifteen foot swing in tides, there are places where the currents run that fast near you. Like you said, in a bay or whatever, there's not much current... It takes a "pinch" land mass with a large body of water on either side to create current. Our "lowcountry" is a vast expanse of inland saltwater rivers, tidal in nature, and very fast flowing. Imagine the Mississippi delta, but without the Mississippi River.

That's why this area's so famous for fossils... Because they're constantly being exposed by swift-moving currents.

It's not uncommon to see local boats and ships high-and-dry.

Nanook
May 12th, 2003, 06:58 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...



Check this link: http://www.wunderground.com/MAR/AM/352.html



Which means you're diving in zero vis and LOTS of current (it's typically deminished to about half at the bottom... So... Two or three knots is common at depth).



did you even look at the link you posted? It shows the local currents if you scroll down the page far enough. I think the max was around 2.6kts. The average was low 2's. This would be at max ebb and max flood.

And by your statement that the current diminishes to about 1/2 at the bottom, I guess you're diving in 1 kt.



You want to know who I am?




I am Nanook, the caller of BS wherever I see it.

Nanook
May 12th, 2003, 07:07 PM
I will give you a very serious piece of advice.


Do NOT learn diving skills and knowledge on the internet.

Get trained by a certified instructor by actually diving in the water. Reinforce your knowledge via discussion. You are trying to learn too much via the internet. There are too many things that you don't know. There are things you don't even realize you don't know.

Don't dive beyond your training.

Be safe.

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 07:22 PM
Well then, all hail Nanook. :rolleyes:

Those currents are in the Charleston harbor, Nanook, about an hour and a half away.

The Charleston Harbor is a big, wide, open harbor.

Looking at those currents and making a judgement call on the speed of currents locally is effectively like looking at the relatively slow currents in the bay at Seattle and making a judgement call on the speed of the currents at Deception Pass.

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 07:35 PM
Nanook once bubbled...
I will give you a very serious piece of advice.


...From the "big man" who has absolutely no idea what he's talking about?

Nice job on making everyone too fearful to post anything useful. I can assure you that nobody will be posting THEIR mistakes to this board if this is how they'll be treated.

Nice going.



Do NOT learn diving skills and knowledge on the internet.


Oh, thanks, Einstein. Man, here I thought I could earn a c-card through it. :rolleyes:



Get trained by a certified instructor by actually diving in the water.


I did. A while ago. Then I did it again. A while ago.



Reinforce your knowledge via discussion.


Well, with your attitude running around, I doubt that's going to happen. I also doubt that anyone who's read this thread are going to put themselves in my position either.

Nice. Real nice. This could have been productive, but instead it's become a personal attack.



You are trying to learn too much via the internet.


You know, Nanook, with all due respect, I haven't learned ANYTHING from the Internet. Well, perhaps with the exception that there are people like you out there who feel it's necessary to personally attack someone during a discussion.



There are too many things that you don't know.


Hey, Nanook... Guess what, big man... I'm not alone. If you knew half as much as you think you do, then perhaps you should be teaching us all! Maybe there should be a "Nanook" c-card.



There are things you don't even realize you don't know.


Of course there is.

You think that YOU know it all?

Nanook, I will give you "one very serious piece of advice:" At least wait until you have ten posts under your belt before dishing advice about "learning on the Internet."

Nanook
May 12th, 2003, 07:49 PM
I say things you don't want to hear does not make them untrue. I don't believe I personally attacked you. I've told you to expand your training. I've recommended you stop trying to learn skills on the internet. I thought I've given you some good advice.

As far as people posting their mistakes: I don't think that will be an issue. Most people admit their mistakes and then try and learn to not repeat them.

You, on the otherhand, admit your mistakes and then go on a rampage trying to justify them. Others have given you good advice. You mostly ignore them, or tell them why that advice does not apply to YOU.



Dive within your training.

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 07:58 PM
Whatever, Nanook.

I'll consider your comments deeply.

Thanks for caring so very much about my safety. :rolleyes:

Nanook
May 12th, 2003, 08:05 PM
you seem to think I'm somebody else. I don't know why. I don't know you. I don't care if you like what I have to say. I called BS and I still call BS.

Do you really want to start a personal attack?

I haven't even gotten into your world record attempt.

I haven't mentioned that the reason DIRF is now a pass/fail class is because too many divers like yourself just don't get it. Good thing you took it before they could fail you.

I haven't mentioned how funny it was to read posts about how "anti DIR" you were, about how "anti BP/wing" you were, and how those things changed 180deg. in a month.



I believe that you will continue to dive the way YOU know is right, no matter how wrong it may be.


to everyone else: post your mistakes, learn from them, listen to the advice of others. I'm sure you see that seajay brings this on himself. He hasn't learned one thing in this entire thread.


Goodbye

Dive within your training.

divegary
May 12th, 2003, 08:21 PM
Seajay,
I keep looking at the profiles for your dives. I keep coming back to your 3 minutes NDL was when? It seems to me that you would have seen 3 minutes NDL between 12-16 minutes before you went deeper for 6 more minutes. It is just a thought, but it is what seems most consistent with what I understand about the Vyper. You get to dive another day and that is a good thing. Dive safe.
Gary:out:

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 08:57 PM
Nanook once bubbled...

I haven't even gotten into your world record attempt.


Until you do better, Nanook, you're speaking out of turn about a world record attempt.

How many world records do you hold?



I haven't mentioned that the reason DIRF is now a pass/fail class is because too many divers like yourself just don't get it. Good thing you took it before they could fail you.


Please tell me about your DIR experience. You know all about mine... Now let's hear yours.



I haven't mentioned how funny it was to read posts about how "anti DIR" you were, about how "anti BP/wing" you were, and how those things changed 180deg. in a month.


Actually, it changed 180 degrees in a weekend. Guess which weekend?



I believe that you will continue to dive the way YOU know is right, no matter how wrong it may be.


You said yourself that you do not know me. How do you know how I dive?

See, there's a perfect example of someone who shoots their mouth off about something they know nothing about.

See, all you wanted to do was flame. All you wanted was a chance to argue... To be heard. Pathetic.



to everyone else: post your mistakes, learn from them, listen to the advice of others.


I doubt that's going to happen. I hope it does... But it would involve people taking substantial risk of running into someone like you... And I'm not sure that people are going to want to do that.

Ceratainly you've done this whole board a disservice.



I'm sure you see that seajay brings this on himself. He hasn't learned one thing in this entire thread.


Didn't you just tell me that I'm trying to learn too much on the Internet? Which is it... Am I trying to learn too much, or am I not learning enough?



Goodbye


Don't let the door hit you in the butt. :D

MikeFerrara
May 12th, 2003, 09:08 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...


You know, I've been wondering where he is, too! He's overdue! :D

I'm not sure I have anything of value to say. The title of the thread is "Big Mistake" and it was. Since everyone knows that, I'm not sure what I can add.

I do have one statement but it's just stating the obvious...We need to understand decompression and how it relates to the profile we want given the gas supply we have and environmental constraints we're diving in (like temp) and plan/execute accordingly.

I was wondering though, was information from the "Art of Decompression" thread any help on this dive?

Cave Diver
May 12th, 2003, 09:10 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Nanook, I will give you "one very serious piece of advice:" At least wait until you have ten posts under your belt before dishing advice about "learning on the Internet."

Okay, I've been trying to ignore the banter between you two, but I'm finding it increasingly hard.

SeaJay, I originally thought you were correct about the sockpuppet thing because his only responses thus far on S/B had been directed towards you.

However, you do tend to make yourself a highly visible participant, so that is not entirely unexplainable.

Nanook has pointed out some very valid concerns, whether you choose to call them flames or not is your perogative. I think some of us who are a little more removed from the discussion can see the merit in his posts, as well as yours.

His suggestion was you needed more training and you have countered that with a list of your accomplishments.

Fine.

Just realize that in spite of your accomplishments and training you are still making mistakes that could easily turn out far worse than they have.

You posted this for discussion, yet you continually refute answers from those who seem to be more knowledgeable. If you know so much, why are you making these simple mistakes?

And finally, you told Nanook to get a few more posts under his belt before dishing out advice. What does the number of posts that he has made have to do with the price of eggs in the middle east?????

Maybe all of his time is spent out diving instead of posting (and no, I don't know, I'm just speculating based on the information I've seen provided)? Who would you rather take advice from? Someone with thousands of posts, or someone with thousands of dives?

In my opinion, you're taking this all a little too personally.

A lot of good information has been generated in this thread. Don't lose sight of the objective because of a little flak. You've also put out some incredulous statements, so you shouldn't be surprised that they get questioned.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled posters.

Nanook
May 12th, 2003, 09:12 PM
you already have one:

"World's greatest current overestimator"






I have no experience.

I have no DIR experience.

I have no diving experience.

I learned all my skills by reading your posts.


I do have common sense, which you lack. I think the lack of red meat has thrown your electrolyte levels out of whack.



I'll try one last time:

Dive Within Your Training

MikeFerrara
May 12th, 2003, 09:18 PM
Cave Diver once bubbled...



A lot of good information has been generated in this thread.

I must have missed that part. :rolleyes:

Nanook
May 12th, 2003, 09:29 PM
To everyone EXCEPT seajay for stooping to his level of personal attacks.


That was wrong of me to follow his example.

Cave Diver
May 12th, 2003, 09:29 PM
MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I must have missed that part. :rolleyes:

I was referring to the debriefing and analyzing of the dives. Several people have pointed out very good and pertinent information regarding the dive profile, the SAC rates, errors in data input regarding tank sizing/working pressure, etc.

If nothing else, this has been a good exercise in that regard.

Red Dog Diver
May 12th, 2003, 09:44 PM
As a frequent reader but infrequent poster to this board I have some thoughts after reading this thread.

1) I need more training. I am not the most experienced nor the most skilled diver, but I am more than willing to learn at any opportunity.
2) There are a lot of very smart people on this board who know a whole lot more about diving, decompression, SAC rates, and computer algorithims than I do. I am thankful that their advice is free!
3) When you expose your mistakes to others and ask that they critique them, be prepared to take it from all sides and when those real tough questions come, sometimes you just have to sit back and eat it because you're the one who brought it up.
4) Diving is a team sport, not a competition sport. I believe that choosing a dive buddy is one of the most important decisions you will ever make. One point I don't think I read here in relation to SeaJays dive buddy was what did he say to you after the dive? I would have been some kind of pi**ed off and would have voiced that. After all as you admit, you blew the plan and you put him at risk as well as yourself. I have made mistakes in the water, so has my buddy, when the dive was over we have talked (yelled) it out. I am interested to hear your buddys comments.

SeaJay, I am thankful to you for initiating this thread as I have learned quite a bit as I do from most posts on this board. I am glad that you weren't injured as a result of your error. That being said, it is my impression of your original post and subsequent replies that I feel you have left some points out or have been deliberately vague in your answers, and when questioned on those points I have found you overly defensive, or giving other reasons not previously mentioned to back up your statements. As I was not there, I cannot say certain things did not happen but some of what you say just does not have the ring of truth in my opinion. It is also my opinion that you learn the most when all the cards are on the table. And for Nanook, we all need more training!

Dive Safe
Derk

Uncle Pug
May 12th, 2003, 09:55 PM
Red Dog Diver once bubbled...
As a frequent reader but infrequent poster to this board
Thanks for posting Derk.

Oh... and welcome to you too Nanook.

Spectre
May 12th, 2003, 09:55 PM
Red Dog Diver once bubbled...
As a frequent reader but infrequent poster to this board

Ohh... Ohh... We found another sockpuppet!

jeez.... stand back dude.

Red Dog Diver
May 12th, 2003, 09:58 PM
I am no sockpuppet of that I can assure you!

Spectre
May 12th, 2003, 10:04 PM
Red Dog Diver once bubbled...
I am no sockpuppet of that I can assure you!

heh heh... just joking :)

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 10:11 PM
Mike Ferrara once bubbled...
I must have missed that part. :rolleyes:

Yeah, it was waaay back on page four or five or something. I've lost count.


Nanook once bubbled...
I have no experience.

I have no DIR experience.

I have no diving experience.


You've got to be kidding, right?



I learned all my skills by reading your posts.


And you wanted to tell ME not to "learn from the Internet?" C'mon... You're kidding, right?



I do have common sense, which you lack.


Breathing underwater has nothing to do with common sense.



I think the lack of red meat has thrown your electrolyte levels out of whack.


Oh, jeez... There ya go again, spouting off about something that you know nothing about.



Dive within your training.


Duh. Yes, I see it. Okay, I'll validate it. If I say it aloud will you go away? Yes, yes... We all dive within our training.

Look, let's call a truce. Nanook, give it a rest, will you please?

I've brought it up, and I've eaten it. Simple. I knew I would. (Although I didn't know it'd be this bad.)

Derk: All of the answers are there. I've provided painfully accurate testimony. If you have a specific question that's not answered yet, ask; I'll be thrilled to answer it for you.

Red Dog Diver
May 12th, 2003, 10:14 PM
I'll start with an answer to your buddy's post dive reaction?

Uncle Pug
May 12th, 2003, 10:18 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Breathing underwater has nothing to do with common sense.
Aaargggghhhh.....

bwerb
May 12th, 2003, 10:22 PM
some of this thread resembles the "whack a mole" game...just when you think you've hit em, they pop-up in another hole...

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 10:27 PM
My buddy for the dive was not one that I normally dive with.

Neither my buddy for the dive nor my buddy that I normally dive with are DIR divers. <bracing for impact>

My buddy that I normally dive with said to me, "Hey SeaJay, how much air you got," the moment my head was above water. He appeared to be relatively angry, but that's nothing new. He's always ticked at something, so I've learned to ignore it. I replied, "200 psi." He was silent.

When I got back on the boat, he said to me, "I didn't know whether to send down more air or what." He and his dive buddy had gotten in the water after us and had gotten out before us. (I was buddied with the out-of-stater.)

"Yeah, I blew my tables, and had to decompress. Sorry to have made you worry."

Then my "regular" buddy and the captain gave me a lecture about WHERE to deco. I was literally 10' down, and right off the ladder (my buddy and I were the only two in the water). Apparently that wasn't popular because it could have been possible that they would have needed to start the engines to come get us or something... And therefore would have preferred to have me near the bow of the boat rather than near the ladders, which were near the stern.

I just said, "Sure, man." Next time I'll be at the bow during deco. I don't see that it was really an issue, since the water was clear and everyone obviously knew exactly where I was. I never got near the engines or props... But that's not how they saw it. Whatever. Next time I'll do deco on the bow.

My dive buddy didn't say much. He didn't have to say much. He got his answers pretty much from that conversation. I had told him that I needed deco under water, and told him the amount of time... So he wasn't clueless or confused. I apologized when we surfaced, and told him my mistake. He simply brushed it off and said, "Yeah, I thought you'd overstayed a bit. I'd have been pretty surprised if you HADN'T needed to deco. No problem." Of course, that said, there was a simple understanding that next time I'd work a better dive so that unplanned things didn't happen. :D

Cave Diver
May 12th, 2003, 10:30 PM
bwerb once bubbled...
some of this thread resembles the "whack a mole" game...just when you think you've hit em, they pop-up in another hole...


:::COKE ALERT!!!:::: Now THAT was funny!

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 10:32 PM
Uncle Pug once bubbled...

Aaargggghhhh.....

I remember your original reaction to this post... At the very beginning. And it wasn't much different then.

:poking:

Red Dog Diver
May 12th, 2003, 10:38 PM
Fair enough thanks!

I guess my other issue is what was it that made you decide to go from 70 feet back down to 98 feet? I have trouble believing that you descended because your computer said you still had no deco time left on it. I am not familiar with the dive site you were on Wreck, reef, otherwise and if you covered this and I missed your answer I apolgize.

Derk

Whirling Girl
May 12th, 2003, 10:57 PM
ok, i give up, after reading this entire thread, and being a completely new person to this board, my very first post will ask two burning questions:

what's a troll, and what's a sockpuppet?

SeaJay
May 12th, 2003, 11:00 PM
Lesseee... Looking for an answer... Stupidity? Curiosity? Brain fart?

Okay, that's a little harsh. :D

Seriously, that "hump" you see in the middle of my dive profile was caused by the terrain. I was cruisin' around the ship, and went down the deck of the boat, which required an ascent from 98 feet to 72. When the wreck fell again in depth, I simply followed it.

As I was following and decending, I thought, "Check gauges again," and saw a 3 minute NDL. I waited another 30 seconds or so and began my ascent while simultaneously checking for my buddy and for the upline. I sorta gathered all of that together and headed up... Apparently very slowly. I do remember another team putting a lift bag on the anchor and taking it to the surface. Perhaps me watching that slowed my ascent to the 8 ft/min that got me in trouble.

By the time I hit 35 feet, where I could begin offgassing, I'd already overstayed my NDL. In fact, I watched it all the way up, while I ascended horizontally... And I remember watching it go to 18 minutes while seeing the ASC flag.

I also remember thinking, "WTF??" I had never seen my 'puter do that before... And I didn't quite "get it," since I WAS ascending. I kept thinking, "Am I reading this wrong?"

Nonetheless, I did a stop at 15 feet, just as I knew I should have anyway... And that gave me enough time to really think about everything. I also saw my ASC time decrease... And I knew that it was counting deco.

I also knew that deco should be eight minutes, max, since I was not down there more than five minutes past NDL... And I thought I'd tack on a 3 minute safety stop for good measure. So I checked my pressure gauge and thought, "I might not have enough."

THAT was the only real "emergency."

...So in my head, I had about 11 minutes to stay at this depth, and according to my 'puter, I had 12. No biggie... I'll do 12. I signalled to my buddy to stay level, and he signaled, "okay." At three minutes, I told him nine minutes, then gave him a signal at five, at four, at three, and so on.

Other than that, the deco was relatively boring, save for the school of jellyfish that came by. They look like clear bulbs filled with electricity! :) There were thousands...

Oh, and the waves... I avoided the upline, since it was jumping up and down quite a bit, and simply hovered, with an eye on my gauges and the other on the wildlife.

It's a very strange feeling just hovering in nothingness, going by a gauge. We could not see the bottom.

At zero, I thumbed my buddy, and we surfaced.

Spectre
May 12th, 2003, 11:09 PM
Whirling Girl once bubbled...
what's a troll, and what's a sockpuppet?

Troll = someone that posts something intended to just bait heated discussions. E.g. someone that comes in and posts about how great deep air is specifically to get the fur flying. See also "Jepuskar"

Sockpuppet = a second account created by an active member. Often used to troll without effecting their reputation.

Search for "troll" and "sockpuppet", and you'll find plenty of examples.

RavenC
May 12th, 2003, 11:28 PM
He posted that he made a mistake. When we discussed what happened and the fact that the last training he had taught him very important ways to closely estimate how much time he would have had for the dive plan it gave him the idea to post what happened to help himself and others learn from this. That is the importance of this post.

There has been a lot of educational information posted here today and a lot of crap. Many harshly judging haven't even read the information completely or even accurately. Point in case was Red Dog Diver posted "When you expose your mistakes to others and ask that people critique them..." He simply stated he made a mistake and what happened. He didn't ask for any criticizing. Many jumped right in to diagnose and crunch numbers to help others learning from this mistake. Another point where a poster just isn't reading everything completely correct is Nanook's "Do Not learn diving skills and knowledge on the internet." There have been many that have said they learned a lot from this post today. There are many of us who learn a lot here and from other places on the Internet. The problem with here is that some of what people learn is not the correct way. However, the Internet is a great source of learning and knowledge. It is putting to use what you learn in practice that makes the difference and that's where the skill comes in. You can learn a lot and still not be able to put it to use.

My point in posting is that this post and others like it here is meant to be helpful. Posting insults and attitudes that are driving this now aren't constructive. They aren't helpful. Let's get back to the intended purpose and off the insults. Or just walk away and go to another post.

Not everyone is going to agree on everything but I would bet that many would agree that the attitude and tone here is out of hand and it all started with insults.

Let's not be mean.

As for the currents here, they are rippin' and you are most certainly welcome to come dive them when they are fast to see for yourself. I have a guest room and we can hook you up.

I also have Jello!!! :D

medic13
May 12th, 2003, 11:47 PM
SOME INFO FROM SUUNO!!
Safty stops are a widely considered "good diving Practice"
the stops labelwhen in the depth range 10-20 ft,
REcimended safty stop
with every dive over 10 meters the instrument has a three min countdown for the recomended safty stop the recomended safty stop as the name inplies is recomended , if ingnore there no penality

manatory safty stop
when the ACENT rate exceeds 12 meters /MIn (40) ft min
the micro buble build up is predicted to be more than allowed for in the decompression modal , the suunto RGBM calculation modal respons to this by adding a MANDATORY Safety stopto the dive.
The time will depend on the severity of the accent rate excess!!!!
the manatory safty stop will also include the 3 min recommended safty stop.

DECOMPRESSION dives
when your no deco time becomes zero your dives becomes a deco dive , ie you must perform one or several deco stops on your way to surface
also check your settings SeaJay
check to see if the mode is set to PO , or P1 or P2 I dive with mine in PO as P1 and P2 mode are just too concertive .
also I think there a way to decress the sampling time a litle bit just little bit of info and yes the suunto are very conservative but remember dive your plan but also remember your totoal underwater time also includes your accent time too !!!
as far as i can see only thing was your computer was more concerative than your plan !!! and the close call to being out of air !!!but most important to me any way is your ok and safe !!!
and maybe some of us and others learned fspmething from this .

Cave Diver
May 12th, 2003, 11:56 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Derk: All of the answers are there. I've provided painfully accurate testimony. If you have a specific question that's not answered yet, ask; I'll be thrilled to answer it for you.

If this answer applies to anybody, then all of your posts have gotten me thinking about something that I would like you to clarify.

In this thread Holy Smokes! (http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25495) you posted that you finally got a chance to dive with all your new gear, which included your Vyper computer. Date of post: 4-5-03

On 4-26-03, you posted the following question on overstaying NDL limits:


SeaJay once bubbled...
Okay, please no flames on this thread. I can't tell you what to say or what not to say, but I'm asking everyone to please be nice. I have a question about deco that's surely liable to start a flame war (again), so please resist it if you can.

My question is to the more experienced DIR divers.

I'd like to learn how to handle a situation where I've overstayed my NDL. Yes, I know... Plan the dive and dive the plan. Okay, let's say that I PLAN to overstay my NDL. Let's say, for example, that I've got a max depth of 85' and that I'm breathing EANx, according to the tenants of DIR.

Who's the right people to learn this from? Does GUE teach this in Tech I? Is that my next goal?

Of course, I've considered taking the Hal Watt's Deep Air course... But the whole concept of "Deep Air" seems very anti-DIR, and I'd like to stick to GUE standards. Besides, I'm not really interested in "Deep Air." What I'm interested in is learning how to stay under for extended periods of time at shallow depths. What I want to learn is the art of deco.

For example, let's say that I wanted an hour and twenty minutes at 85'. No doubt I'd be using EANx, according to the tenants of DIR. However, that's still past EANx's NDL.

Who do I go to for this training, and where are classes offered?

Then you followed your question with this response:


SeaJay once bubbled...
That's pretty interesting. Of course, like you, I won't be doing this dive anytime soon, since I'll get the training first.

But for reference, what are the deco obligations on that same profile when that diver uses air instead of EAN36? EAN32?

I also seem to recall you posting a response to someone that you have done numerous dives and done skills practice hundreds of times.

Keeping all of this in mind, someone please correct me if I'm wrong on the following assumptions.

The computer profiles of the dives in question on this thread show a date of 5-3-03.

They show to be dives 13 and 14, respectively.

Since diving your "new rig", which included your computer, for the first time one month ago, you had only logged a dozen dives prior to these two.

I find it hard to see how you can get so much practice in with so little actual dive time, could you elaborate on this for me?

During this time, you were looking for information on how to overstay your NDL times. Barely a week after posting that question, you went out and did just that (although not by the margin you were inquring about).

Now, you are posting about that dive as a "big mistake" and you are wondering why you are catching flak about it.

WAKE UP DUDE!

In MY OPINION you are trying to take a little information that you get from this board and use it to dive beyond your training.

Did it occur to you that some of these "flames" might be because people are actually concerned about your safety even if you arent?

Did it occur to you that if a diver, any diver, gets hurt or killed, it gets publicized and looks badly on every other diver out there as well as our sport?

I think it's great that you are so passionate about it and wanting to learn, believe me I can relate to that. But again, in my opinion you should direct some of that energy into taking the appropriate classes and learning the required skills. Then you wont have to post about how things went wrong or ask "what do I do".

Am I way off base here and reading too much into all of this, or does anyone else see this too?

SeaJay
May 13th, 2003, 12:24 AM
Cave Diver once bubbled...

I find it hard to see how you can get so much practice in with so little actual dive time, could you elaborate on this for me?


Sure.

The Vyper's not always been present during all of my dives. It's new.

In fact, my Vyper's not been present on every dive since I received it either.

I haven't checked recently, but I just recently hit the 200 dive mark... Not a lot, but it definitely qualifies as "hundreds."

I've got about 100 dives since my DIR-F class, and every one of those have included the practicing of a skill taught in DIR-F.



During this time, you were looking for information on how to overstay your NDL times. Barely a week after posting that question, you went out and did just that (although not by the margin you were inquring about).


Well, that's a pretty good observation.

Specifically, I was looking for information on where to find the "right" education on decompression. I was particularly concerned with what happened, exactly, if I overstayed an NDL.

Well, of course, that led me to my little "experiment:" Diving the computer instead of diving the plan. My risk - and I knew it when I was posting just as I knew it when I was diving - was that I might overstay my NDL... Which is exactly what happened.

I reacted both according to my training and in accordance with my 'puter.



Now, you are posting about that dive as a "big mistake" and you are wondering why you are catching flak about it.


I fully expected to catch flak about overstaying my NDL... As I said before, that was the risk involved, and I reacted according to my training.

The mistake, as we established, was at least twofold: Not sticking to my plan, and not understanding what was meant by "3 minutes" of NDL. When I found out, I was prepared to handle the consequences. Now I know and I want to share. So I did. :D



In MY OPINION you are trying to take a little information that you get from this board and use it to dive beyond your training.


No, my question was, "Where do you guys recommend I get the information?" I never dived the information I got on the 'net.

In fact, I never did exceed my training. I learned what to do in case of an overstay in my OW 1 class.



Did it occur to you that some of these "flames" might be because people are actually concerned about your safety even if you arent?


Did it "occur" to me? Yes, I considered it. In fact, I believe that I actually thanked one of them for "caring so much about my safety" above.



Did it occur to you that if a diver, any diver, gets hurt or killed, it gets publicized and looks badly on every other diver out there as well as our sport?


Of course. You can step off your soapbox now. :D I did not get hurt or killed.



I think it's great that you are so passionate about it and wanting to learn, believe me I can relate to that. But again, in my opinion you should direct some of that energy into taking the appropriate classes and learning the required skills. Then you wont have to post about how things went wrong or ask "what do I do".


I've classed myself to death since I got serious about the sport. I think I've got some six certifications (and a brand new college degree) in the past year.

And I still did 200 dives this year.

And found time to volunteer at the local aquarium.

And you want to give me the advice to "direct some energy into taking classes?"

Great idea. Thanks. :D



Am I way off base here and reading too much into all of this, or does anyone else see this too?

I love you, man. :D

Cave Diver
May 13th, 2003, 12:55 AM
SeaJay once bubbled...


Sure.

The Vyper's not always been present during all of my dives. It's new.

In fact, my Vyper's not been present on every dive since I received it either.


I noted that your Vyper was new. Thats why I referenced it as only the 14th dive in the last month since you bought it.

The fact that you havent used it on every dive may be part of the problem as to why you misread the information it gave you.


SeaJay once bubbled...
Specifically, I was looking for information on where to find the "right" education on decompression. I was particularly concerned with what happened, exactly, if I overstayed an NDL.

Well, of course, that led me to my little "experiment:" Diving the computer instead of diving the plan. My risk - and I knew it when I was posting just as I knew it when I was diving - was that I might overstay my NDL... Which is exactly what happened.

My point was that instead of "experimenting" perhaps you should have gotten that "right" education on decompression.

Let me pose a question to you. Suppose your buddy had gotten a bad cramp toward the end of that dive and needed your assitance? Would you have had the air supply to meet your deco obligation and assist him?

The "right" education doesnt mean that you manage to get out of the water with air in your tank. It means having enough air to safely get you and your buddy out in the event of an emergency and still meet all of your deco requirements.


SeaJay once bubbled...
I reacted both according to my training and in accordance with my 'puter.


That's the problem. You didn't have the training or you wouldnt have been in that situation to begin with.


SeaJay once bubbled...
The mistake, as we established, was at least twofold: Not sticking to my plan, and not understanding what was meant by "3 minutes" of NDL. When I found out, I was prepared to handle the consequences. Now I know and I want to share. So I did. :D


As I stated above, not using it on every dive since you got it might have contributed to your unfamiliarity with what it was telling you.


SeaJay once bubbled...
No, my question was, "Where do you guys recommend I get the information?" I never dived the information I got on the 'net.


And my comment was that in my opinion you asked for information and within a week you took that information and did a dive with very similar parameters that was beyond the training you had received. Perhaps the timing was just coincedental...



SeaJay once bubbled...
In fact, I never did exceed my training. I learned what to do in case of an overstay in my OW 1 class.

Which agency, and what did they teach you?


SeaJay once bubbled...
Did it "occur" to me? Yes, I considered it. In fact, I believe that I actually thanked one of them for "caring so much about my safety" above.

Of course. You can step off your soapbox now. :D


Actually, I think you thanked a couple of people. With one exception, it seemed to have a ring of sarcasm. Although I admit it is difficult to tell the tone of something when it's in text.

Is it your turn on the soapbox again? :)


SeaJay once bubbled...
I've classed myself to death since I got serious about the sport. I think I've got some six certifications (and a brand new college degree) in the past year.

And I still did 200 dives this year.

And found time to volunteer at the local aquarium.

And you want to give me the advice to "direct some energy into taking classes?"

Great idea. Thanks. :D


Congratulations on your hardwork and your accomplishments. But I believe my words were "appropriate classes."

You know, the ones like advanced nitrox, Tech 1, or something of that nature that would address some of these issues for you. Or did your OW1 class cover all of that also? No problem at all for the suggestion. Seemed it was needed and you are most welcome.


SeaJay once bubbled...
I love you, man. :D

That may very well be, but you're still not getting my bud light.

Cave Diver
May 13th, 2003, 01:31 AM
bwerb once bubbled...
some of this thread resembles the "whack a mole" game...just when you think you've hit em, they pop-up in another hole...

Here ya go. Anyone who wants to take out some of their hostilities can do it from the comfort of their own home...

Whack a Mole! (http://chicagofirekiteteam.com/whack/)

Alphabet Whack a Mole! (http://www.playkidsgames.com/games/wam/wam.htm)



<no actual moles were harmed in the making of these video games>

SeaJay
May 13th, 2003, 02:49 AM
Cave Diver once bubbled...


I noted that your Vyper was new. Thats why I referenced it as only the 14th dive in the last month since you bought it.

The fact that you havent used it on every dive may be part of the problem as to why you misread the information it gave you.


Well, that's true. No doubt about it, you're right.

There's more, too... ALL of the dives I've done with the Vyper have been relatively shallow. This was my first and second dives where an NDL was threatened by my air supply.

For example, all of my other dives have been extended stays at 35' or 45' or 22' or whatever. This was my first dive (and subsequent second) where my NDL might run out before my air supply.

So, yeah... You're right. I was not sure how my new Vyper would handle the situation. I read everything in the owner's manual... Twice. Maybe three times, even. I was simply under the impression that "zero" meant that was my NDL limit. While that's certainly true, it's also true that hitting zero at depth means that you're going to earn a deco.

I thought I was doing okay by turning at three minutes. That wasn't the case. It might have been, if my ascent rate had been more "normal."



My point was that instead of "experimenting" perhaps you should have gotten that "right" education on decompression.


Well, that's true, too. That's why I was looking for an answer to the "right" education in that thread. Make no mistake about it... The timing was not coincidental.

Nonetheless, I also did not intentionally go past my NDL. That's what I referred to as "the scary part."

See, I was aware of the fact that I wasn't sure when, exactly, I needed to turn my dive, according to my 'puter. I took what I thought was a conservative approach, leaving basically at three minutes. It wasn't enough.

That's what I wanted to share with others.

Turns out, that after some discussion, it WOULD have been conservative enough... Just barely... If I'd had a normal rate of ascent.

The two together... Not understanding that three minutes wasn't early enough, and a very slow rate of ascent... Were enough to put me in deco.



Let me pose a question to you. Suppose your buddy had gotten a bad cramp toward the end of that dive and needed your assitance? Would you have had the air supply to meet your deco obligation and assist him?


Well, that's speculative. I believe so, but that's only a hypothesis.

But I see your point... Let's say my buddy had had an OOG emergency. I would NOT have had the air supply to meet my deco obligation and assist him. That "window" of not having enough gas to assist in an OOG and simultaneously meet a deco obligation was probably the point at which my no deco dive became a deco dive. In other words, from about 20 minutes into the dive to about 30 minutes into the dive (because he could have simply surfaced at 30 minutes on... He had no deco obligation and we were at 10 feet). This ten minute window of not being able to share gas was the extent of the emergency.

So I see your point, and I agree with it. There was additional risk that was unacceptable, and should have been prevented.

Remember, I did NOT intend to go past my NDL. I dove that dive knowing that there was a risk of that, but it was not an intention.

I intended that three minutes of NDL would suffice. It didn't.



The "right" education doesnt mean that you manage to get out of the water with air in your tank. It means having enough air to safely get you and your buddy out in the event of an emergency and still meet all of your deco requirements.


Very true.

I did not intend for the dive to go into deco.



You didn't have the training or you wouldnt have been in that situation to begin with.


Okay, but then why does PADI offer training relative to, "If you overstay your NDL?"

...Which is exactly what I did. Remember, I did not plan a deco dive.

My point is that I HAVE been trained on what to do if I overstay my NDL. I have not been trained on decompression diving.

It can be argued that I did not dive beyond my training.

I do see your point, though... I should not have been in deco because I haven't been trained on it. You're exactly right... That was "The Big Mistake." I was very unnerved by the fact that I was doing something for which I was not trained.

However, PADI does teach how to handle the accident when it happens... Safely. And I fell back on that training to ensure safety.



As I stated above, not using it on every dive since you got it might have contributed to your unfamiliarity with what it was telling you.


That's certainly true. This is my first and second "deep dives" with the 'puter.

The scary part is that I am... And was... Intimately familiar with the owner's manual, and knew how to operate the computer. I've taken the thing through many simulated dives, too.

And I still didn't understand the meaning of "three minutes," or I wouldn't have been in that situation.



And my comment was that in my opinion you asked for information and within a week you took that information and did a dive with very similar parameters that was beyond the training you had received. Perhaps the timing was just coincedental...


No, I'm not going to let you believe that. It was very definitely NOT coincidental.

I knew that on my deep dives my gas and NDL were close... And would require some management which I was unclear on. "Diving my plan" has always kept me out of deco in the past. Now that I had a computer, I could more accurately gauge my NDL based on real data. And my fear was getting too close to my NDL. Thus, I asked the question and started the thread.

...So when I took my 'puter on that dive, I decided I'd enjoy some of the more "accurate" information, and still leave myself with some room for error. Three minutes, to be exact.

Unfortunately, that did not work. I still went into deco and had to perform "emergency" procedures... What I'd been trained on. What I have not been trained on was doing exactly the same thing as a part of the plan, and not as an emergency.



Which agency, and what did they teach you?


PADI. They teach that if you overstay your NDL for five minutes or less, ascend to 15 feet and deco for eight minutes or more. No diving or flying for 48 hours. If you overstay your NDL for more than five minutes, ascend to 15 feet and deco for 15 minutes or more. No flying or diving for 48 hours. My instructor taught that "if you overstay your NDL for more than five minutes, stay as long as your gas permits... Don't get out at 15 minutes if you don't have to." That seems logical, as "anything more than five minutes" is a very nondescript amount of time.



Actually, I think you thanked a couple of people. With one exception, it seemed to have a ring of sarcasm. Although I admit it is difficult to tell the tone of something when it's in text.


No, the message rang through correctly. I was being sarcastic in that one post.

My sarcasm mirrored his genuine concern (or lack thereof).



Is it your turn on the soapbox again? :)


Yeah, move over. Just kidding. :D



Congratulations on your hardwork and your accomplishments. But I believe my words were "appropriate classes."


I hear ya loud and clear.



You know, the ones like advanced nitrox, Tech 1, or something of that nature that would address some of these issues for you.


That would be awesome.

Tech I required DIR-F, which is now a certifying course. Since I felt so inept (as most have) at DIR-F, I've been practicing... And changing my lifestyle... And getting the right gear. And trimming and bouyancing and all of the "right" stuff like crazy.

Yes, Tech I is definitely in the works. I'm also thinking about Nitrox, although the class in and of itself wouldn't be very useful to me, since 'trox isn't really available anywhere near me. It would clear the way, though, for Advanced Nitrox, which I think would help (right?) in this case. I think that I need Advanced 'trox and DIR-F again before attempting Tech I.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't taken these courses yet, so I can only go on what information has been given to me.



Or did your OW1 class cover all of that also?


Lol... Of course not. OW1 certifies to 60 feet only, and only within the NDLs.



No problem at all for the suggestion. Seemed it was needed and you are most welcome.


Yes, a genuine thanks. :)



That may very well be, but you're still not getting my bud light.

Heheheeeee...

DameDykker
May 13th, 2003, 03:08 AM
Bantering and flames aside - I at least learnt something. Most of my dives are long duration very shallow depth and I weren't aware that the SUunto algorithme was working in precisely that way. And I might very well not have found out before doing a deep dive - even though I would have checked the manual.

So in conclusion I learnt from the internet (most classes have theory included). And I don't think I would have picked it up anyware else.

So thanks to Seajay for sharing. And thanks to the rest of you for making the lesson more complete. :out:

I hope that others will also make their misktakes puplic - It not that we havn't all make mistake one time or another.

Take care down there :)

SeaJay
May 13th, 2003, 03:27 AM
DameDykker once bubbled...
Bantering and flames aside - I at least learnt something. Most of my dives are long duration very shallow depth and I weren't aware that the SUunto algorithme was working in precisely that way. And I might very well not have found out before doing a deep dive - even though I would have checked the manual.

So in conclusion I learnt from the internet (most classes have theory included). And I don't think I would have picked it up anyware else.

So thanks to Seajay for sharing. And thanks to the rest of you for making the lesson more complete. :out:

I hope that others will also make their misktakes puplic - It not that we havn't all make mistake one time or another.

Take care down there :)

You're a dream come true, DameDykker... I started this thread to share what I found out and so that me and you and everyone else could all learn. Thanks for telling us how you feel about the thread. It makes it all worthwhile. I feel the same way... I think it was very educational.

You say that you would have checked the manual. I did, and then I did again... And still made the mistake. Through some of the really great material in this thread (ya gotta sift through the garbage that some of us threw at each other... Sorry 'bout that) I think it's been decided that the Suunto could have kept me out of deco if I'd both turned, say, five minutes before zero NDL AND rose at the recommended 30 fpm or so. The Suuntos have an alarm that sounds at anything greater than 33 fpm, so a "proper" ascent is sorta like riding a fine line. It seems, though, that anything between a 20 fpm and 30 fpm ascent would have been fine.

The key is... Don't go to zero, or don't ascend either too fast or too slow. And certainly don't do both. That is, unless you're prepared to decompress (which includes both gear preparation and the correct training).

...But I'm really glad that this post, despite the flaming, has been a benefit to the board.

I'd do it a hundred times if we all benefit. Even if it WAS "sticky."

medic13
May 13th, 2003, 04:17 AM
Cave Diver I have one question who the heck made you so dang perfect.
I sit hear and read , what you typed and wonder man this SOB is a pain in the Blank , all you have done is insult , everyone who has posted and yes there is stuff to learn from other divers and the internet .
maybe some of us will learn from this and maybe someone will understand more from this ,
to me What happened, happened and let by gones be by gones so do rest of us a favor if you dont have anything nice to say shut UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DameDykker stated Bantering and flames aside - I at least learnt something

this is really what this is about !!!! so we all may learn and not make same mistake !!!!Persoanlly I get tired of the flaming some members of this board, feel they must do every time someone ask or brings up something they feel is wrong , say so dont keep pounding and falming them in a demerting way !!!

divegary
May 13th, 2003, 05:58 AM
RavenC once bubbled...


I also have Jello!!! :D

What color?:out: :)

RavenC
May 13th, 2003, 06:56 AM
divegary once bubbled...


What color?:out: :)

I have red - Strawberry and Cherry, yellow - Pineapple, blue - Berry Blue, green - Lime, and orange - Orange in my pantry right now. Four flavors of pudding too.

:hehe:

Flavor is important when playing jello games. I get tempted to lick. :licklips:

R :innocent:

Hoppy
May 13th, 2003, 07:52 AM
I've just read the whole thread thinking I was gonna get something out of this one.

The Cr*p in the middle is just that, but at the beginning I was learning. Thanks for posting this one SJ I at least appreciate it.

I will re read my Vyper manual a little more carefully.

Can I ask one question on sac rates, the posts earlier confused me with regard to Suunto DM software.

The working pressure of the cylinder, actual pressure etc. has me lost now. :confused:

If my Cylinder is a 12 litre Faber steel which I beleive is rated at 232 bar (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the "working pressure" ?

My DM software makes no change in SAC depending on what is in working pressure, yet you guys appear to say that it should ? Or am i just just lost ? (Maybe)

What in litres would be a reasonable sac rate for a relatively inexperienced diver ?

How (apart from practice) does one try to help get a SAC down?

Techniques would be appreciated, I am currently the original underwater horse ! And it's getting embarrasing, at this rate I'm gonna have to learn how to sling stages for a rec dive to 20 meters. ;)

BUT not till I've been trained how to Nanook so don't worry !

Seriously folks I could do with some help.

Cheers
Hoppy

SA-Diver
May 13th, 2003, 08:19 AM
I have to agree with you Hoppy, there was a lot of good info in this thread but also a lot of crap.
The 'working pressure' in the Suunto DM software is as you describe it, and is not used to calculate SAC.
The software uses starting and ending pressures to calculate SAC.

To get your air consumption down - dive,dive,dive.

Nanook
May 13th, 2003, 08:21 AM
RavenC once bubbled...
Posting insults and attitudes that are driving this now aren't constructive. They aren't helpful. Let's get back to the intended purpose and off the insults. Or just walk away and go to another post.

Not everyone is going to agree on everything but I would bet that many would agree that the attitude and tone here is out of hand and it all started with insults.

Let's not be mean.



I'm glad to see somebody agreeing that seajay started insulting those trying to help him. (along with the pm's from 5 different people thanking me for my posts)



By the way: it is great to use the internet to reinforce your knowledge, just don't use it as your only source of knowledge.

Dive within your training.

jonnythan
May 13th, 2003, 08:26 AM
SA-Diver once bubbled...
I have to agree with you Hoppy, there was a lot of good info in this thread but also a lot of crap.
The 'working pressure' in the Suunto DM software is as you describe it, and is not used to calculate SAC.
The software uses starting and ending pressures to calculate SAC.

To get your air consumption down - dive,dive,dive.

The way I see it, the Suunto software uses working pressure and rated capacity to determine cf/psi

If I put in a working pressure of 3300 and a capacity of 77.4 cf, that's .02345.

However, if I put in the actual values of 3000 and 77.4, that's .0258 cf/psi, a 10% difference.

Using the former, draining a tank from 3000 psi to 300 psi gives 63.3 cf consumed.

Using the latter, the software would calculate 69.6 cf consumed.

Ignoring the working capacity/pressure, any software can calculate SAC in psi/min, but you need the capacity and pressure to turn that to cf/min. If those values are inputted incorrectly, then your SAC is wrong.

Hoppy
May 13th, 2003, 08:26 AM
troll looks like.

I asked for some help here and lo and behold off we go again !

If Mike F or UP or Spectre or some of the other people I respect are here, maybe they could PM the advice ?

Getting bored now and used to like it here :upset:


Hoppy

SA-Diver
May 13th, 2003, 08:42 AM
What was that all about Hoppy ?

If you don't like the replies you get just ignore them.
The more you dive the more relaxed you will become and the better your consumption will become to a point.
There is no magic formula.

Jonnythan :

I tried the following with Suunto DM.
I dive metric.

15L steel cylinder with a working pressure of 232 bar.

Starting pressure 190 bar.
Ending pressure 50 bar.

SAC Rate 12.3 SLM

Pressure used 140 bar.

Rate used 2.1 bar/min.

Total gas in cylinder 2850.0 liters

Volume of gas used 2100.0 liters

I then changed the working pressure for the same cylinder on the same dive to 200 bar with the same starting and ending pressures and the resulting SAC rate, pressure used, volume used and rate used were exactly the same.

If you get different results using imperial or doing something different to what I was trying here, please publish - I am interrested to see.

jonnythan
May 13th, 2003, 08:45 AM
SA-Diver once bubbled...
What was that all about Hoppy ?

If you don't like the replies you get just ignore them.
The more you dive the more relaxed you will become and the better your consumption will become to a point.
There is no magic formula.

Jonnythan :

I tried the following with Suunto DM.
I dive metric.

15L steel cylinder with a working pressure of 232 bar.

Starting pressure 190 bar.
Ending pressure 50 bar.

SAC Rate 12.3 SLM

Pressure used 140 bar.

Rate used 2.1 bar/min.

Total gas in cylinder 2850.0 liters

Volume of gas used 2100.0 liters

I then changed the working pressure for the same cylinder on the same dive to 200 bar with the same starting and ending pressures and the resulting SAC rate, pressure used, volume used and rate used were exactly the same.

If you get different results using imperial or doing something different to what I was trying here, please publish - I am interrested to see.

It doesn't sound like you're entering capacity *at* working pressure, rather you're entering capacity at atmospheric pressure.

Maybe the imperial software is different.

I've never used either.

However, it's impossible to calculate a SAC in cf/min correctly if the software thinks that the tank holds 77.4 cf at 3300 psi.

Spectre
May 13th, 2003, 08:48 AM
When I wake up a little more I'm going to have to think about your world a bit. I know our tank ratings are calculated in unpressurized gas volume. e.g. an 80 cu ft tank [77.4, but using 80 for the math] has 80 cu ft in it at 1 ATA when released. 40 cu ft when released at 2 ATA, etc...

With the imperial system, SAC rate is in cubic foot per minute, and it's gained from the change in PSI during your dive. If you used 500 psi, from a 100 cuft tank, how many cubic feet is that? It depends on at what psi the tank has 100 cuft. e.g. if it's a lp tank rated to be 100 cuft at 2640, then 500 psi is 19 cuft. If it's a high pressure tank, 100 @ 3500 psi, then you're taking 14 1/4 cuft for 500 psi. If your talking one of those funky filberglass 5000 psi tanks, then you're now talking 10 cuft. So if you accidentally have your working pressure 5000 psi, when it's actually 2500 psi, then you're SAC rates are actually half what they really are.
[these numbers are tweaked for ease in sleepy-math, and not reflective of actual tank ratings]

Metric tank ratings are rated in water volume, not gas capacity. So there may be a difference there. I'll have to think about it more, but I'd think it the same thing...

Hoppy
May 13th, 2003, 08:52 AM
Sorry , we posted at about the same time, the troll comment was aimed at Nanook not you.

I had a feeling the advice was gonna be DIVE and do it some more and some more :D

I get the same result as you as I'm using metric.

The help file does suggest it calcs differently in Imperial, which seems strange ?

So whats a decent SAC then ?

I'm not publishing mine ! Too embarrasing :D

Hoppy

SA-Diver
May 13th, 2003, 08:57 AM
Jonnythan

You are correct.

I did the same exersise with Suunto DM software using imperial and the results differ from what happens with metric.

The Suunto DM calculations are done differently depending on whether you use metric or imperial.

I would have loved to dive imperial, but in South-Africa it would be a big issue as I would be the only diver on the dives using imperial.

SA-Diver
May 13th, 2003, 09:02 AM
Hoppy

I wonder how often that happens on the board.

Using metric my SAC averages about 12.3 SLM using about 2.1 bar/min.

I feel I can definitely improve but I compare well with friends who have 900+ dives under the belt.

My SAC started improving drastically as I dove more regularly. If I do not dive for a while (had a neck fusion in Jan and started diving again in April), my SAC is shot for the first dive or two, then rapidly returns to my average.

Hoppy
May 13th, 2003, 09:03 AM
SA-Diver once bubbled...
Jonnythan

You are correct.

I did the same exersise with Suunto DM software using imperial and the results differ from what happens with metric.

The Suunto DM calculations are done differently depending on whether you use metric or imperial.

I would have loved to dive imperial, but in South-Africa it would be a big issue as I would be the only diver on the dives using imperial.

I thought I was losing what few marbles I had left :D along with my lungs.

Cheers for that. My s/w is on my machine at home.

Hoppy

Must get on with some work :upset:

Hoppy
May 13th, 2003, 09:10 AM
SA-Diver once bubbled...
Hoppy

I wonder how often that happens on the board.

Using metric my SAC averages about 12.3 SLM using about 2.1 bar/min.

I feel I can definitely improve but I compare well with friends who have 900+ dives under the belt.

My SAC started improving drastically as I dove more regularly. If I do not dive for a while (had a neck fusion in Jan and started diving again in April), my SAC is shot for the first dive or two, then rapidly returns to my average.

I have just had 5 months out due to a perfed ear :( and I admit to being anxious about the dive as well , all thinks which prob dont help. I just couldn't believe how bad it was, thats why I'm interested in knowing what others rates are.

Ta for sharing.

Hoppy

srobins
May 13th, 2003, 09:48 AM
You, on the otherhand, admit your mistakes and then go on a rampage trying to justify them. Others have given you good advice. You mostly ignore them, or tell them why that advice does not apply to YOU.

Seajay has a habit of doing this. Arn't we all told that you shouldn't put your hands near moving machinery? Seajay's last 'Big Mistake' generated weeks worth of justification from the great man:

<url deleted>

Regulator's note - DO NOT post such links on ScubaBoard.

divegary
May 13th, 2003, 10:06 AM
RavenC once bubbled...


I have red - Strawberry and Cherry, yellow - Pineapple, blue - Berry Blue, green - Lime, and orange - Orange in my pantry right now. Four flavors of pudding too.

:hehe:

Flavor is important when playing jello games. I get tempted to lick. :licklips:

R :innocent:
That is so cool. Life is good! :) :out:

Whirling Girl
May 13th, 2003, 11:01 AM
Hey Hoppy,

I don't know if this will help, but you asked what might improve your SAC rate other than just practice. Your question seems to assume correctly that indeed, practice is what will help the most. And diving frequency as well.

But I would offer two other suggestions.

DIR-F. Don't flip out on me, everyone; I'm not trying to sell you on DIR. But my SAC rate improved literally by 100% within a week after I took Fundamentals. It was because I was so much more comfortable and relaxed in the water, not using my hands at all, finning efficiently, hovering rock steady and able to just be at peace. I thought I was going crazy when suddenly my tanks were lasting twice as long, but my buddies confirmed it for me. I was no longer the one who always turned the dives. It was the best feeling.

Cardiovascular fitness. I'm a competitive rower, so I thought I was totally cool when it came to my fitness level, but when I added long slow runs 2x/week, my SAC rate also improved noticeably. I can tell that I breathe longer and slower in the water.

Those are my two suggestions.

Margaret

bwerb
May 13th, 2003, 11:17 AM
to the non-diving related forum...


divegary once bubbled...



That is so cool. Life is good! :) :out:


I'm sick of this jello crap, THESE are useless posts, if you want to talk about your fantasy life, take it somewhere else, it doesn't belong in this thread or this forum.

My 2 cents:upset:

dvleemin
May 13th, 2003, 11:37 AM
Wow,
Did this thread ever go down the drain. The first page or two I thought brought up at least some interesting, and even possibly educational points; the rest turned into a bunch of crap.

Darryl

RavenC
May 13th, 2003, 11:50 AM
Nanook once bubbled...



I'm glad to see somebody agreeing that seajay started insulting those trying to help him. (along with the pm's from 5 different people thanking me for my posts)



Congratulations for your five thank yous.

But you are very confused about my post, so let me be very clear.

IMO you have a real problem. You don't read and comprehend what is posted. Then you extract and twist what is posted. You have posted some valid points and information. But, YOU ARE A TROUBLE MAKER here in this post. YOU are the person who fueled this post with insults and improper attitude. I did not speak about SeaJay's posts at all except to point out that he did not ask for you or anyone else to critique his post.

It takes someone like you who only gets gratification from being ugly that has corrupted this thread. Let this post be constructive. There are knowledgeable people here who are teaching other divers.

You on the other hand have stopped being useful. If you have factual information that can educate others than by all means post. If you want to change the tone and make this not ugly or negative. By all means post. But you continue to say things you have already said and everyone here has read your comment "Dive within your training." Good point. Well taken. Enough. We heard you.

Many have contributed good appropriate information. I want people to dive safely. SeaJay in particularly. I want him to continue to learn and have positive experiences doing something he loves. I want the same for everyone.

I tried to change topic to stop the useless bashing that the post had turned into. SeaJay (and others) is getting valuable input from some of the posts and others are just not necessary. Please stop with the bashing.

As for srobins your input is definately uncalled for. I hope you never have an unfortunate accident. Take it back to the CBR board or just keep to yourself.

Please back to SAC rates, dive calculations, appropriate information please. Good luck getting good information to your questions Hoppy.

Pez de Diablo
May 13th, 2003, 11:57 AM
srobins once bubbled...


Seajay has a habit of doing this. Arn't we all told that you shouldn't put your hands near moving machinery? Seajay's last 'Big Mistake' generated weeks worth of justification from the great man:

<url deleted>

Your post is rude and uncalled for.

RavenC
May 13th, 2003, 11:57 AM
dvleemin once bubbled...
Wow,
Did this thread ever go down the drain. The first page or two I thought brought up at least some interesting, and even possibly educational points; the rest turned into a bunch of crap.

Darryl

You are absolutely correct. R

SeaJay
May 13th, 2003, 11:59 AM
It's easy to get lost somewhere in the middle, but the thread outlasted the flame. Keep reading.

Hoppy: My exercises for decreasing SAC have included a focus on the technique of breathing, and a more physically relaxed state of being while in the water.

Firstly, I play dead. I let the body go limp underwater. Then I arch my back and prop my legs to get the right position while still leaving the rest of my body relaxed. It actually takes a fair amount of focus.

Of course, that won't work unless your trimmed and bouyanced properly first, so that's a prerequisite to the equation.

Then I breathe like these guys do: http://www.mikey.net/aue/theater.htm

Check their videos out. Listen to the breathing. Of course, never close your throat... Simply pause at the top of the breath. This allows your lungs to exchange more of the O2 in each breath than it would with a simple in-out method. It also does something interesting to your buoyancy... Now, since you're at a much more constant volume, it's easier to pinpoint your buoyancy.

Of course, YMMV, always wear your safety belt, and all that sort of stuff. :)

Let the flames begin. :(

Scubaroo
May 13th, 2003, 12:06 PM
!!!!!!!!!

People, get yourself under control.

Certain links are being edited out of this thread. They have no place on ScubaBoard.

Cave Diver
May 13th, 2003, 12:07 PM
medic13 once bubbled...
Cave Diver I have one question who the heck made you so dang perfect.
I sit hear and read , what you typed and wonder man this SOB is a pain in the Blank , all you have done is insult , everyone who has posted and yes there is stuff to learn from other divers and the internet .
maybe some of us will learn from this and maybe someone will understand more from this ,
to me What happened, happened and let by gones be by gones so do rest of us a favor if you dont have anything nice to say shut UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DameDykker stated Bantering and flames aside - I at least learnt something

this is really what this is about !!!! so we all may learn and not make same mistake !!!!Persoanlly I get tired of the flaming some members of this board, feel they must do every time someone ask or brings up something they feel is wrong , say so dont keep pounding and falming them in a demerting way !!!

Medic13. I don't recall stating in any of my posts that I was perfect. Nor do I recall anyone else stating that either.

If you think that I can be a pain in the blank in here, you should ask some of those that know me how much worse I am in person.

IMO, I don't believe I have insulted anyone, and I challenge you to point out a single post where this is the case. I posed some specific questions to SeaJay, based on the information he provided and I asked for clarification if I was misunderstanding. In case you missed his last post regarding those questions, he stated that several of my observations were correct and that I brought up some valid points.

The point of that discussion was not to bash SJ, and I honestly don't think that I did. He didnt seem to be offended by my comments or questions, and if he isn't I'm not sure why you feel the need to be.

If you have an issue with something I have posted, feel free to take it up with me in a PM.

To everyone else, I apologize for this temporary disruption of an otherwise interesting thread.

Hoppy
May 13th, 2003, 12:45 PM
Whirling girl :

Maybe I need to give up the smokes ? I know I didn't put that in because it's so darned obvious , maybe I needed it rammed down my throat by the dive I just bailed out on.

DIR well............ I had thought about it but dont consider I'm good enough yet to consider putting myself through that, I get the impression you need to be a darned sight better than I am before you even read the book :) Maybe those who have done it could comment further ?

SJ:

Thanks for that, will download the vids tomorrow on the office connection :D

Relaxed is something I definately wasn't , as I said in an earlier post I was anxious, more practise reqd.

I'm interested in the arching technique you mention, care to PM a bit more info ? Or on here if you wanna risk the flames , your choice but I'd like to understand a bit better exactly what you mean.

Any body make cam bands for quads on here :D


Thx again folks, nice to see the old scubaboard coming back. Thats why I'm here to try and learn some stuff from people who have the dives and the hours in, and don't mind sharing experiences.

Shame they have to wear Kevlar to be able to do it.:D

Hoppy
Off to the pool tonight to see if he can make a 7ltr last more than the giant stride in. ;-0

Nanook
May 13th, 2003, 01:30 PM
What are you talking about?

I have stated nothing that hasn't been true. If seajay had truely been interested in learning from his mistake, then he would have read the statements and either agreed or disagreed with them. His choice. He chose to do neither, and instead decided to argue with EVERYONE else about every portion of the dive.

Now we find out that this was not a mistake at all. He had been planning on exceeding the NDL for some time, even asking questions ON THE INTERNET trying to find the best way to accomplish this type of diving.

You don't want to see him hurt? I wish him no harm either. Seems like only some people "get it". If you want to conduct decompression diving, get trained. Simple as that. And that training should be conducted by a certified instructor. THEN you can reinforce that training through discussion.

I apologized for allowing his insults to prod me into replying with the same. Go back and read it. I said nothing untrue. It wasn't what he wanted to hear, so he attacked me. Sockpuppet this, troll that. ONE OF MY POSTS was derrogatory. He continually has bashed me. Now, who the hell do you think you are? You're not even involved in the discussion, but had to butt in.



Do we need to review:

1. conducting deco dives without proper training
2. not understanding his dive computer
3. improper dive profile. And if you want to dive this type of profile, improper training.
4. No understanding of ceilings and how/where to conduct stops
5. trying to learn via the internet without formal training
6. lack of training in dive planning
7. no predive brief
8. lack of buddy skills

These are truths. Harsh truths. If you want warm and fuzzy agreements... don't look here. I call them like I see them. And some BS just gets deeper and deeper.

Don't dive stupid

Dive within your training

Whirling Girl
May 13th, 2003, 02:03 PM
Hoppy once bubbled...
Whirling girl :

Maybe I need to give up the smokes ? I know I didn't put that in because it's so darned obvious , maybe I needed it rammed down my throat by the dive I just bailed out on.You're kidding, right? Right? you're not kidding, are you.

Sigh.

Dude, don't dive and smoke. Does anyone really need to tell you that? But maybe hearing it this time will make a difference because you sound like you might be ready to stop doing it. You have my support.

Smoking is bad for you. But smoking and diving, that's just stupid. No offense. So take this fabulous opportunity to grit your teeth and quit, and enjoy the fact that you'll be a much better, and safer, diver as a result.
DIR well............ I had thought about it but dont consider I'm good enough yet to consider putting myself through that, I get the impression you need to be a darned sight better than I am before you even read the book :) Maybe those who have done it could comment further ?I'll comment. I took DIR with only 25 dives. I think it gave me an advantage, actually, because I didn't have bad habits yet that I needed to break, and I had no ego whatsoever about my diving abilities.

Some of my friends are SSI and GUE instructors, and they tell funny stories about some of the divers who take DIR. The worst students are the divers who let their egos get in the way. DIR skills just take practice, but they are hard as hell the first time. That's why you take a course to learn them. When a diver worries about looking like a fool, or has a huge ego about their diving, they will have problems.

I love the look of shock on the faces of other divers when they see the perfect buoyancy and trim and control in the water that all of the instructors and divemasters I dive with have. I really like it when a diver comes up and says "How do you do that? I wanna be able to do that!" It's so gratifying.

So, in other words, you're fine. Go ahead and take DIRF.

My DIRF instructor was actually quite gentle with me. I was inexperienced and scared about taking off my mask, in particular, but he still made me learn the skills, and he tested me several times without me knowing it. Alot of DIR is buddy awareness and it's amazing what you will learn.

The hardest skill was having to take off my mask at 30 feet, hover for a few minutes and get used to being blind, and then do a controlled ascent at less than 10' per minute all the way to the surface, purely by feel. It's amazing what you can sense underwater even if you can't see anything. Once I relaxed, I could tell where the surface was, I could feel the bubbles rising past my face, I could feel my ears crackle slightly when they pressurized at shallower depths, I could feel my ascent speed and knew when to dump air to slow down. It was awesome.

Even though I was actually crying the entire time. But that's another issue.

It was a really hard class, both physically and mentally, but I had a real sense of accomplishment afterwards. Now I dive with people who like to play in the water column for fun, do drills during every dive, and play games that most divers just can't play because they don't have the buoyancy control and buddy awareness.

I think for DIRF they recommend you have at least 25 dives, but that's it. Alot of instructors from other agencies take DIRF, at least in this area, and they always seem amazed at how much there is for them to learn. If they are open to it and not defensive or arrogant, they learn a lot. If they are defensive and arrogant, they get their asses kicked by their instructors, but they still learn alot.

Either way, you learn alot. If you have the right attitude, you'll have a lot of fun, too. It was the most fun I had ever had diving, and it changed everything.
I'm interested in the arching technique you mention, care to PM a bit more info ? Or on here if you wanna risk the flames , your choice but I'd like to understand a bit better exactly what you mean.You'll learn it in Fundamentals. It might take several dives after the class is over before you really get the feeling of being stretched out and perfectly trimmed in the water, but it will come.

I forgot to also suggest that YOGA is the most fabulous exercise there is, but especially for divers.

Quit smoking. Do yoga. Ohm...

Margaret

Whirling Girl
May 13th, 2003, 02:14 PM
OK, sorry everyone if that post was too rah rah DIR. I just read it and went "dang, where's my cheerleading outfit? I saw it around here somewhere..."

:)

RavenC
May 13th, 2003, 03:01 PM
Nanook once bubbled...
Now, who the hell do you think you are? You're not even involved in the discussion, but had to butt in.


I am Raven. I don't have to think I am anyone or anything. You yourself were not involved in the discussion, but you butted in. As a matter of fact. You had no more right than anyone. The post was for educational purposes. Not what you posted.

Again you extract and twist information. Just because people ask questions doesn't mean they are "planning" anything. There are many questions asked. Someone questioned if an underwater photo was real. This doesn't mean that he was planning on trying to prove it was an imposter and then reporting it to the world.

People ask "what if" questions all the time here. Sometimes it is for preventive maintenance.

The simple fact remains, you have said what you wanted over and over. It has been noted. I just asked you to stop repeating and change the hostile tone. Check your post now, is it anything new? Really? We've heard you loud and clear.

My first reaction was to flip you off and tell you to kiss my a$$, but I am not going to go there. You just want to provoke and as frustrating as you are, well, anyway. I am being nice now when I say - Please - Stop. You aren't saying anything new or useful.

R

GeekDiver
May 13th, 2003, 03:16 PM
I havn't been chiming in on this thread but It has been a load of fun reading.

Seajay ask's for feedback on his mistakes takes a bit of heat then spends his time defending and makeing excuses on how or why he made the mistakes. Then lashes back becuse he takes it too personel. Then we have Raven comming to his rescue.

Now before you post back I don't know either of you personaly and have nothing against either of you. SeaJay you knew you were going to take some heat for your post. You say your Ok with takeing a bit of heat. Why don't you just stop, Take the posts for whatever value there worth and try and learn where you messed up and how not to let it happen again. You can't defend a mistake like this but you can learn from it.

You asked for help in understanding your mistake but then refuse to listen to anyone who post that you don't agree with and then attack back. We all make mistakes but it only when our ego's won't let us admit it that we don't learn for it. If we knew what was wrong when we made the mistake we wouldn't need for someone to tell us we were wrong and wouldn't ask.

The biggest mistake I think your makeing is your EGO which I think dosn't have a place in safe diving. At some point in time that EGO will kick in and get you hurt.

You may say you don't have an EGO but look at your goals. When you found out about DIR you jumped in overhead because you thought this was such a better dive system (ego says I have to be the best and have the best). Then your quest for a world record. What does that prove to anyone, who will benifit from that, no one except your EGO (Ego says again I have to be the best and I'll prove it by holding a record) Now since I don't know you by anything else except your posts so could be I've got the wrong impression. If I'm wrong I'm sure you or raven will let me know.

My best advice is that you need to sit down and really think about why you dive and what you want out of diving. Plan for it and get the training that will help you achive that goal. If you dive because of some ego trip then no matter what training you get it will never be enough to meet the need that your ego will push untill you reach the point where you push too far and get hurt.

This is not intended as a flame or to be hurtfull but I am concerned and wish you well in all your endevors.

Geek

RavenC
May 13th, 2003, 04:03 PM
I am not coming to anyone's rescue but yours now because your post is incorrect in that you say he jumped into DIR because he thought it was better. That is not true. As a matter of fact he didn't think that DIR was better. He wanted to learn more about DIR because he was actually anti-DIR. When he began to learn and took the DIRF course he realized that they taught a better way of doing most skills and techniques for diving. Furthermore, he found out that he had to eat some of his words because he personally felt that DIR may be the best once he had taken the course. So for you to post that is incorrect.



[i]You asked for help in understanding your mistake ...
We all make mistakes but it only when our ego's won't let us admit it that we don't learn for it.

He openly admitted he made a mistake.


You may say you don't have an EGO but look at your goals. ...Then your quest for a world record. What does that prove to anyone, who will benifit from that, no one except your EGO (Ego says again I have to be the best and I'll prove it by holding a record) Now since I don't know you by anything else except your posts so could be I've got the wrong impression. If I'm wrong I'm sure you or raven will let me know.

Everyone here has an EGO. As for a record attempt. I would call that aspiration. A goal. I asked him if he was trying to impress someone, why would you want to do it? He responded that he had always appreciated the effort that people had put into accomplishing a world record. Well, I say, some people dream, some people wish and some people do. Which one are you Geek?



My best advice is that you need to sit down and really think about why you dive and what you want out of diving.

SJ does that every day.


Plan for it and get the training that will help you achive that goal.

He's doing that too.


This is not intended as a flame or to be hurtfull

Then why don't you post only the facts.

Yes, SJ got frustrated on the board yesterday because of the battery of insulting posts. He was receptive to the wise and pertainent information with the exception of when he stated that he disagreed. He admitted he made a mistake. He is understanding where, why, and how he did.

My post was only to stop people from posting in accurate information and repeating other information over and over. But that is all. Say what you want about me "comming to his rescue" as you put it, but I like others on this board, read and read the information and had I not been Raven, you would not have posted the way you did. There have been others to voice that there has been good information and crap posted. You don't feel the need to address that because I was the only one to ask for the post to stay on track and not get ugly. I don't like to read ugly posts. There are plenty here that I read that get ugly. But if I am not going to learn from the information I leave. And, honestly, I had hoped that people did either get back on track or leave. But no, that didn't happen.

There were many who learned a lot from some of the posts early on. That's all.

If you feel the need to post like you did I could say nothing if the information was factual. All I ask is that you get the facts right.

But thanks for your concern for safety. R

SeaJay
May 13th, 2003, 04:33 PM
Hoppy once bubbled...

I'm interested in the arching technique you mention, care to PM a bit more info ? Or on here if you wanna risk the flames , your choice but I'd like to understand a bit better exactly what you mean.


Sure, man. :)

Flames are something that I'm accustomed to now, unfortunately. I'm pretty much getting used to it.

The arch-back thing... Ever seen a skydiver, and the way their back arches? That's the objective. Arched back, knees at a right angle, and feet/fins horizontal.

It's surprisingly easy to do underwater, since the water supports your body so well.

The position gives excellent control in all planes, and keeps your fins off of the bottom... Good for a variety of reasons.

I find that in heavy currents, the only thing that changes about my position is that I lessen the degree of bend at my knees.

GeekDiver
May 13th, 2003, 04:49 PM
Well....

I'm glad you took my post as constructive.

"He openly admitted he made a mistake."

Admitting you made a mistake doesn't require you learn or take responsibility for the mistake

"Then why don't you post only the facts."

I didn't post facts because it was my impression that I received of Seajays motives and as such are subjective so do not qualify as a fact, unless Seajay would want to confirm it.

I'm still not trying to be hurtful, only offering my viewpoint as to what I see is a larger mistake in his motivation behind his diving asperations. I also didn't view several of the posts Seajay or yourself disagreed with as insulting. Well you could say some took a cheap shot or two but you must admit that both you and Seajay have been very defensive about all of this.

Like I said before I wish you both well and I'm glad he is ok. If you and Seajay can say you have learned because of this and are now better divers even better yet.

I know that in text you can't see the true emotions of others so If I have the wrong impression of SeaJay's motives behind his diving it's understandable and can happen.

Hopefully you will also be understandable as well and belive me that I didn't have any other motive other than concern by expressing a viewpoint that may have had some merit. I don't know either of you on a personal level so I'll have to accept your statement that Seajay is not motivated by ego.

Geek

Zagnut
May 13th, 2003, 05:00 PM
:confused:

Pez de Diablo
May 13th, 2003, 05:02 PM
Ohh my ;)

Move it along people, there's nothing to see here.

Plenty of other constructive posts to contribute to.

Move it along now :)

SeaJay
May 13th, 2003, 05:05 PM
GeekDiver once bubbled...

Seajay ask's for feedback on his mistakes takes a bit of heat then spends his time defending and makeing excuses on how or why he made the mistakes. Then lashes back becuse he takes it too personel. Then we have Raven comming to his rescue.


That's not at all the nature of the posts.

1. I never asked to be crucified. I never asked for feedback.
2. The post was designed to help and be productive. Discussion was certainly in order, and I was prepared to take flak. Personal attacks, however, were still uncalled for.
3. This is now totally off-topic. There is another thread where the topic was picked back up, dusted off, and new life breathed into it. Now your focus here is me and my actions. Please stop talking about me. It makes you sound pathetic.
4. I did not lash back... Ever. Reread, please. I remained very polite through the whole ordeal.
5. RavenC is my girl. She kicks ass. She can come to my rescue anytime... As I would her. Buddies do that sort of thing for each other... Even if it's hardly a "rescue" as you put it.



Now before you post back I don't know either of you personaly and have nothing against either of you.


Well, then you can stop right there. The essence of your sentence above is, "I have no idea anything about you, but I'm going to give you my opinion anyway." We don't care.



SeaJay you knew you were going to take some heat for your post. You say your Ok with takeing a bit of heat. Why don't you just stop, Take the posts for whatever value there worth and try and learn where you messed up and how not to let it happen again. You can't defend a mistake like this but you can learn from it.


I never defended my mistake.

I believe that somewhere around page two we figured out how to prevent this problem again and we've moved on with our lives. Not until Nanook got involved, with his horrible attitude, did things go awry.



You asked for help in understanding your mistake


Not really. No, I don't think I did.

Nonetheless, it was still welcome when those "in the know" pointed out some things.

Taking advice from someone who just told the board that he's never dived a day in his life, has never seen a DIR class, and knows nothing about diving... Well... All I can say is what I said before. "Thanks for sharing. I'll consider your comments carefully."



but then refuse to listen to anyone who post that you don't agree with and then attack back.


They're not attacks.

Look, let's say that you'd nearly had a car accident. Let's say that you looked up in the rearview mirror and saw that you'd just blown a red light.

That's a pretty serious situation, don't you think?

Of course. Now imagine that you'd grown up in that town and had never noticed a red light on that corner before. You'd make a special note of if from then on, wouldn't you? You might even tell your friends, "Hey, there's a red light at the corner of such-and-such and whozit." You might even tell someone, "Wow... I didn't even know the light was there... I RAN it the other day! Man, that coulda been really serious! Maybe next time I'll be extra careful at that intersection."

Now, when other people chime in with, "Yeah, there's also another new light at the corner of whatzit and howe," you'd thank them for the advice. If someone else came in and said, "I always take a passenger with me because two sets of eyes are better than one," you might roll your eyes but still consider the information.

But if someone came rushing in (someone that nobody's ever seen before) spouting, "You should have your license taken away! Maybe you can get a refund! You're DANGEROUS! I'm not lying... You're gonna kill someone!"

Well, you'd be understandably less patient with that individual... Especially if you found out that they didn't have a driver's license, had never had a driver's license, and had never driven a car before.

You'd just tell them to sit down and shut up and be a good passenger.



We all make mistakes but it only when our ego's won't let us admit it that we don't learn for it.


Yes, yes. I hear you. Perhaps I need to validate your existence, too, like I did for Nanook. I hear you. I should be sorry. I made a mistake. My ego is now in check. I have learned from my sin. By the way, you might want to reread the title of this thread... And the first and all of my subsequent posts again... To see all of the "self admissions" of the mistake.

Like Nanook, pointing out that I made a mistake is redundant and irritating. Yes, yes... You're right. A mistake was made.

What do you want me to do, write it in blood for you?

If you go back and reread all of the posts, you'll see that there is no ego problem. That's something that you made up.



If we knew what was wrong when we made the mistake we wouldn't need for someone to tell us we were wrong and wouldn't ask.


I didn't ask.

I knew I was wrong.

That's why I called this thread "The Big Mistake." It implies that I did something wrong. Get it?



The biggest mistake I think your makeing is your EGO which I think dosn't have a place in safe diving. At some point in time that EGO will kick in and get you hurt.


Oh, fer cryin' out loud. Yeah, dude... You right. Me wrong. I'm sorry I was even born; is that better?

Next time I guess I just won't mention it. I bet that you don't either, the next time you make a mistake.

Where I come from, that means that I admit them which is a direct reflection on my character. If you don't... Well, that's also a direct reflection of your character.



You may say you don't have an EGO but look at your goals.


Oh, I'm sorry. Should I lower them for you? :rolleyes:



When you found out about DIR you jumped in overhead because you thought this was such a better dive system (ego says I have to be the best and have the best). Then your quest for a world record. What does that prove to anyone, who will benifit from that, no one except your EGO (Ego says again I have to be the best and I'll prove it by holding a record) Now since I don't know you by anything else except your posts so could be I've got the wrong impression. If I'm wrong I'm sure you or raven will let me know.


If you had any idea what you were talking about, then you'd have read the world record dive post... And know why I'm committed to it.

If you don't know, then please stop making reasons up.



My best advice is that you need to sit down and really think about why you dive and what you want out of diving. Plan for it and get the training that will help you achive that goal. If you dive because of some ego trip then no matter what training you get it will never be enough to meet the need that your ego will push untill you reach the point where you push too far and get hurt.


I truly know that you mean well, and just have no idea that you're clueless.

No problem. I can be patient with that.



This is not intended as a flame or to be hurtfull but I am concerned and wish you well in all your endevors.

Geek

Yes, yes... Thank you very much for caring so much about my safety. :rolleyes:

PhotoTJ
May 14th, 2003, 01:26 PM
Will everyone who hasn't done anything stupid while diving, raise your hand.



Liars!

As long as you learn from your mistakes, no harm, no incident report!

SeaJay
May 14th, 2003, 01:30 PM
Thanks, PhotoTJ.

Yeah, what he said. :D

GeekDiver
May 14th, 2003, 02:20 PM
Hey I thought this was a closed thread

OK SeaJay,

"I never asked to be crucified. I never asked for feedback.
The post was designed to help and be productive. Discussion was certainly in order, and I was prepared to take flak. Personal attacks, however, were still uncalled for."

Your right you didn't ask for it.

Here's what you said:

"Okay, I was telling a friend about my mistake last weekend which could have had pretty big consequences... And it dawned on me that other people could learn from my mistake, so I think it appropriate to share.

...Even though it might not paint me in such a good light. Please be nice, y'all. "

Your right you didn't asked to be crucified and I'm not trying to nail you to cross. (at least not for the moment) I took it as being implied that you were asking for help to understand. My Bad thanks for helping me understand why you posted.

So since you intend for us to learn, what is the lesson we should take from your experiance? Plese let me know so we can clear that up as well.

If it was that we should plan our dive and dive our plan or that we should be familure and understand how our eq works before diving with it. Thanks, but I learned that in PADI BOW class, but your right most don't catch that part in training and have to learn the hard way like you did. At least you survived to tell the story and stress the importance.

Here is your replie about you record attempt:

"If you had any idea what you were talking about, then you'd have read the world record dive post... And know why I'm committed to it."

As far as the world record what is the goal and reason behind it. Let us all know so we can't twist or misunderstand that as well

Here is what I have read about your record attempt and what you have stated about your goals and the purpose behind the attempt.

In fact, I've already got my mind set on another, much riskier record... But first I have to hit this one. Breaking this record won't be the "goal." That's just a step to the goal.

But like your also said (which I do view as a hostil remark):

"I truly know that you mean well, and just have no idea that you're clueless.

Sure I'm clueless your right, but I've never made a mistake that put me into deco, I've never been bent and I've never reach a point where I was concerned that I would run out of air.

I did make one mistake. I made a mistake for showing concern in your well being which I won't ever do again!


Geek

PS I'm still being nice but if you like, I'll be happy to start nailing you to the cross as I think you thrive on the attention.

MikeS
May 14th, 2003, 02:31 PM
Geekdiver,

While we’re asking for clarification, what was the point of your post? It didn’t contain any new information or perspective on the issue; kind of looks like you were just poking Seajay with a verbal stick. Maybe I’m wrong, if so I apologize. Or maybe being dense, I just missed your point.

Mike

SeaJay
May 14th, 2003, 03:14 PM
Yeah, since the thread was closed all night, it gave me the opportunity to think about it a bit.

I have a theory on why people do this... Wanna hear it?

I think that people see "risks" that are involved in extreme activities... Whether you're breathing underwater or riding motorcycles, there's a slightly elevated risk, as compared to the person that doesn't do these things. Those people who also do these activities occassionally see a comrade pay a painful price... Whether it's getting fingers shortened or having a bike accident or just overstaying an NDL... And they want to believe that it won't happen to them. They want to believe that they're immune to it. They want a concrete reason why they'll never get shortened or go down or overstay. So they begin to give reasons... "Well, *I* would never work on my own bike." "Well, you were stupid for trusting your computer." "Well, I *always* look both ways before proceeding through a green light, just to be sure nobody's running a red." You know. Yadda-yadda.

And it goes on.

So I don't really think that people's attitude... Or eople's "anger" as someone more accurately put it... Has anything to do with me. They're trying to figure out WHY it will never happen to them.

...And when I say to them, "I DID take precautions, and it STILL happened..." Well, they get really angry about it and view me as defensive. I believe that their anger stems really from the fact that they keep putting down this "safety net" feeling for themselves when they tell me what I SHOULD have done (and why it will never happen to them) and I keep yanking it out from underneath them.

Taken to the extreme, they get all flustered and call me "stupid" or "uneducated" or "an accident waiting to happen."

Well, I'm not stupid, that's for sure. And while I can't claim that I'm not "uneducated" (there's always someone with more), I can tell you that at least I KNOW that I don't know. That's why I asked a week earlier. These people who simply say things like, "Dive within your training," and "Dive safe" are only pointing out the obvious. What they don't know is that those things aren't going to keep them safe, either. Those things aren't going to guarantee anything.

...And I'd rather know how to handle a mistake... Recognize it, share it, understand it, play with it, and figure out how not to make that mistake again... Than just deny that it could happen to me.

Anyway, that's my theory... Which may or may not be correct.

GeekDiver
May 14th, 2003, 03:18 PM
MikeS

The first couple of posts I ment to offer another view other than the obvious and truly ment well. At times we all make mistakes, yes even I do as well. You see the symptoms and get the easy part but do we don't always see the bigger picture.

I wrecked my car. It was a 78 Vet, classic was in almost mint shape. I don't think I did any thing wrong with my driving. I wasn't speeding, cutting in and out of lanes or tailgating. I didn't hit anyone else.

I had a red mini van pull out in front of me then lock up the brakes 50 yds further down the road. Most would say I wasn't at fault one of the witness said that there wasn't antthing else I could have done. The lady driveing the van first words to me were I hope I didn't cause this. I swerved to miss the mini-van the back end slid out hit the curb and through the front end off the road. The grass was wet and I slide into a tel pole.

Why was this my fault. I was Impatient, wanted to get out from behind this car. I looked back to check my blind spots and didn't see her break until it was to late. Had I been more patient I would have been watching and would have had enough time to brake and stop behind her.

So what does this have to do with SeaJay? I think he's not looking at the whole picture

MikeS no need to apologize. The last post I was poking at him a bit because I viewed his comments as sarcastic and hateful

Geek

SeaJay
May 14th, 2003, 03:33 PM
GeekDiver once bubbled...

So since you intend for us to learn, what is the lesson we should take from your experiance? Plese let me know so we can clear that up as well.

If it was that we should plan our dive and dive our plan or that we should be familure and understand how our eq works before diving with it. Thanks, but I learned that in PADI BOW class, but your right most don't catch that part in training and have to learn the hard way like you did.


Yeah, I learned that in PADI BOW class too.

I think that the object of my post was to demonstrate it... To give it a touch of realism and trueness that goes beyond the simple words of, "Plan the dive and dive the plan."

There was also a lot to be said about where to "turn" the dive... Not at all what I learned in any of my classes, and not what I learned from the owner's manual of the computer.



At least you survived to tell the story and stress the importance.


Yeah. Thanks.

While it's true that this situation could have had very serious ramifications, let's not lose touch with the reality... I overstayed my NDL by less than five minutes.

That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

I did not have an OOA. I did not have an emergency swimming ascent. I did not get bent, and I did not suffer any injuries. At no time was I "out of control," and at no time was I "near death." Let's keep this in perspective... I overstayed my NDL.

I would compare it to overshooting a turn in a car. It was potentially lethal... But the reality of it was that I knew I might overshoot a little, and I accepted that risk and managed it. I gave it a shot... Now I know what it's like. And I thought I'd share... That is, if y'all are interested.

Just don't throw things at me for it, please. :D



As far as the world record what is the goal and reason behind it. Let us all know so we can't twist or misunderstand that as well


Okay. Here's the reason that I was talking about:

"Why? Well...

When I was a child I dreamed of the day when my name would be in the Guiness Book of World Records. I just KNEW that by this time in my life I'd be in there, for having flown the highest, dove the deepest, or gone the fastest. I wanted to be just like Jacques Cousteau or Craig Breedlove or the Rutan brothers. They were my heros. They challenged themselves and their surroundings and used ingenuity, hard work, technological advances, and plain ol' guts to fly higher, go faster, and stay longer than anyone else had ever done before.

I want to be with those guys. I want to surround myself with people who challenge themselves to do what others cannot or will not do. I want to find a worthwhile challenge and meet it. I want to invent a dream and achieve it. To me, the success of a dream is really what life is all about.

You want a more in-depth answer? Read, "Wake Up and Dream" by Dexter Yager.

You want a simpler answer? "Because I can dream it."

You want a more concrete answer? "This is only a testbed for the REAL world record." (Wait'll y'all get a load of the next dream!)"

RavenC
May 14th, 2003, 03:33 PM
Hate that for your vette. I am partial to the 69 model myself. But hay a "vintage vette is a vintage vette."

SeaJay, I have a question.

Did your DM have a spare air on the trip? I know when we planned dives with the Scuba Club we required the DM to have a spare air on the anchor line in the event of an emergency. This was the very same DM. You didn't mention if the LDS and DM left this detail out. This would have helped in that you would not have run out of an air source. That detail the DM should not have left out. Just wondering.

R

SeaJay
May 14th, 2003, 03:46 PM
Yeah, your story made me cringe, Geek. I'm sorry that happened to you.


RavenC once bubbled...
SeaJay, I have a question.

Did your DM have a spare air on the trip? I know when we planned dives with the Scuba Club we required the DM to have a spare air on the anchor line in the event of an emergency. This was the very same DM. You didn't mention if the LDS and DM left this detail out. This would have helped in that you would not have run out of an air source. That detail the DM should not have left out. Just wondering.

R

No. There were no extra spare airs or stages or deco bottles or hang tanks at all.

If I recall properly, we did have a couple of extra tanks sitting around, but no, they were not in the water.

That could have been another solution, really... A tank hanging at 15'...

GeekDiver
May 14th, 2003, 04:13 PM
SeaJay,

I never ment to "throw things at you" and think we just got off to a bad start with a few misunderstandings. I mentioned the car because on the surface the obvious was that the lady made a mistake that cost me my car. The big picture was my attatude while driving.

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to set a record or push limits. It only when our desire and strive and excell takes us beyond what we know to be safe outside of reasonable bounds. Yes you managed the problem and didn't get hurt.

You answered my concerned as to an EGO problem in your last post when you said you took a risk, understood the danger behind that risk and was prepaired to manage that risk. Had you taken the risk not knowing the danger or prepaired to manage the problem then I would say your ego was out of check with reality. This was my concern and view as the bigger picture the lesson that shold be learned.

RavenC Thanks for the comments about the vette. My next dream car I want is a 78-80 model 308 Ferrari.

See SeaJay, I have a bit of an EGO as well. When it comes to cars I have to remind myself where my limits are from time to time.

SeaJay
May 14th, 2003, 04:20 PM
I've got a '67 sitting in the backyard right now with 28,000 original miles on it. It's not mine, though...

I grew up with the cars. It's hard to get used to anything else after that.

Nice to meet you, Geek. :D

Sorry I called you "clueless." :(

GeekDiver
May 14th, 2003, 04:32 PM
No problem, it's hard to read emotions when it's in text.

I have the same problem. My Father in-law's neighbor has a red hardtop 67 w/327 4 speed, factory air and knock off spinners and a one owner car only. It's all org and been parked since 72'. The reverse lockout broke on it so she quit driving it. I've tried to buy it but she won't sell and I haven't had enough cash to change her mind.

MikeS
May 14th, 2003, 05:53 PM
SeaJay once bubbled...
Thanks, Mike.

You're welcome; although I must confess my selfish motive. I just hated to see one of the few threads on ScubaBoard that actually discussed diving turn into a Genesis Class debate/argument.

Hey, no blood, no foul!

Mike

P.S. Fancy little cars are for girly-men, real men drive pickup trucks!:D

SeaJay
May 14th, 2003, 06:12 PM
MikeS once bubbled...

P.S. Fancy little cars are for girly-men, real men drive pickup trucks!:D

Heheheee...

I'm sellin' my BMW Z3 and buying a pickup... Think it'll help my ego? Just kidding. :D

Heheheeee... "Genesis-class debate." Funny.

canuckdiver
May 14th, 2003, 06:22 PM
hey seajay, would my '58 chev apache pickup count?

:out:

SeaJay
May 14th, 2003, 06:24 PM
Too cool.

Rick Inman
May 14th, 2003, 06:54 PM
Dexter Yager??? Ah ha! You're suppose to DIVE the plan, not SHOW the plan. No wonder you're doing multi-level dives...:D

SeaJay
May 14th, 2003, 07:03 PM
Rick Inman once bubbled...
Dexter Yager??? Ah ha! You're suppose to DIVE the plan, not SHOW the plan. No wonder you're doing multi-level dives...:D

Hahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!

Caught that, eh?

Funny!

SeaJay
May 14th, 2003, 07:06 PM
You know, I'd say, "Hey, let's return to topic now that things are cool," but I think it's already going on in another thread.

...And I'm afraid to step foot in there... The place seems to be itchin' to flame, too... I'm afraid I'd say something that would put it over the edge!

newdiverAZ
May 14th, 2003, 09:11 PM
seajay if someone was to go diving with you you would not have a board drawing circles down there would ya?

SeaJay
May 15th, 2003, 12:14 AM
Nope.

I'm not an Amway guy.

With that in mind, though, I will tell you this... There was a time five or ten years ago that I was.

I had some degree of success in the business... But left in order to pursue other interests.

Today my family's communications company (not a network or "multi-level") is a budding 4.5 million dollar a year business. We own a communications tower (which, by the way, seems to be in forever limbo with the local zoning board) and two retail stores. We also do a tremendous amount of business on a wholesale level, selling cellular phones and accessories, prepaid phone cards, home phone service, and POS terminal machines to a variety of large retailers.

But I learned a lot in Amway. I'm not kidding. Their built-in educational system is, IMHO, one of the best educational systems in the world. And I'm not speaking out of turn here... I've attended Rutgers University, the Richard Stockton School, the University of Arizona, and the University of South Carolina. I'm currently considering an MBA at the Darla Moore school of business.

We used to call Dexter Yeger's system, "Yeger University." No joke; it's impressive. My favorite texts included Wake Up and Dream and All I Know at the Top I Learned at the Bottom. I was also fond of How to Win Friends and Influence People (surpisingly not as evil as it sounded) and The Magic of Thinking Big. We used to call these "positive" books.

I've since had the opportunity to get involved with many multi-level opportunities. Like the internet and the business found there, there are a lot of scams out there and a lot of junk... But just because it's "internet" or just because it's "multi-level" does not necessarily mean it's "good" or "bad" business. At least, that's my opinion.

Today, my #1 project... Which has been stalled now for a few months due to zoning issues (which look like they might be solved soon) is a high speed, wireless internet project. We will soon be supplying both residential and commercial high speed internet acccess here in the Lowcountry, which currently is in the "dark ages" in terms of internet.

Our solution should fit the area nicely.

So no, I'm not involved with Amway. I'm not even a customer any longer. But pressed, I would have some great things to say about the company... And especially the way that Dexter Yeger's system works. Very nice indeed.

He's got one thing down pat: It's all about the dream, man. :D It ain't fluff.

bwerb
May 15th, 2003, 09:36 AM
Alright...I somewhat asked this earlier...here we go again with a little more feeling...

Seajay, first things first...

This is not a flame
This is not all about you
This is a piece of advise for some who just don't get it, if it applies to you, take it to heart, if it doesn't, ignore this post, you'll know who you are...

Here goes...

This is called SCUBA BOARD
It is about SCUBA DIVING in all it's various forms.

I for one am completely losing it (and believe me I'm not alone on this one) with the expansion of Non-Diving related topics into every other forum. Look at this thread...how much wheat is there and how much chaff? Have the last several PAGES had anything to do with diving?

I'm pleased with the number of fantastic people I've met and dove with from this board, but if we want to talk about our love of cars or where we are going diving on the weekend or send our personal thoughts and opinions which have no greater edification for the board for diving, we take it to PM's, IM's or heck, even the NDL forums here.

I used to read almost every thread on this board. I used to find new knowledge and new diving debate and new diving stories in almost every thread. Now, there is so much background noise that it is becoming increasingly frustrating to find those gems.

All I'm asking is that if you want to carry-on an in depth conversation about something other than the topic which started the thread, think about how you could better communicate your message with your intended audience before you post to the middle of a diving discussion.

I'm sorry for being long winded here, I'm just really frustrated.

Brian

Cave Diver
May 15th, 2003, 12:16 PM
bwerb once bubbled...

All I'm asking is that if you want to carry-on an in depth conversation about something other than the topic which started the thread, think about how you could better communicate your message with your intended audience before you post to the middle of a diving discussion.


Ummm, shouldnt this post be in the non-diving related forum? :)

I'm kidding! Just kidding!

SeaJay
May 15th, 2003, 12:17 PM
.

medic13
May 15th, 2003, 02:18 PM
So Who done something stupid ME me me !!!!
first I went down to 90 feet and set the boat hook to a wreck came back up and dove my plan !!!
Did I take into consideration of my little ten min dive no !!!
Did that put me into Deco you bets ya but I was prepaired with my pony tank ,
now what if I didnt have that pony tank ect ect ect yes I made a very stupid mistake but wont happen again thats really what this tread is all about learning from the mistake so somone else might not make it !!

John C. Ratliff
May 16th, 2003, 01:57 AM
Well, I read through the #12 sheet, and decided to simply skip the rest. I do have a couple of comments, and these are from someone who's never used a computer.

--Great thread for learning a bit more about the computer, how people are using it, how to look at the readouts, etc. I appreciate the education.

--Having said the above, and as an older-style diver, we used to talk about making our deepest dive first, then doing a shallower, second dive. I think that my plan on this would be to dive deeper the first dive (which was done), then hold it to under 70 feet on the second dive.

--There has been a lot of good discussion early on the thread about mixed-gas mixing with air in two buddies on the same dive. This needs to be thought about a bit.

--What we are doing here is called "incident investigation." SeaJay has volunteered to give us an example, and he should be commended for doing so. I cannot talk for others, but in a different thread about dive logs, I made the point that I started logging "Special Problems and Solutions" many years ago. I'd suggest that everyone criticizing SeaJay start doing that with their logs, and see what comes up. You may be very surprised. There are no perfect dives; ours is too complicated a sport. What we need to do is to track these types of incidents, find out if there are any repeats or serious situations that develop from them, and correct them for the next dive. That's how we learn.

--Several people have said that SeaJay needs "further training." Training is good for the basics. It can cover advanced techniques, but in reality every dive is a "training" dive if we learn from it.

SeaRat

Wyno
May 16th, 2003, 04:13 AM
Wow long thread, there were a few good things said in here.

Wyno
May 16th, 2003, 04:32 AM
Spectre once bubbled...


Do you truely believe you only blew your plan by a couple minutes?

Look at your depth vs. time chart. This is what it looks like in my eyes.

You ended your dive at the deepest portion at your planned time, 12 minutes. You began your ascent. About a minute or so into your ascent you stopped at 70. You then blew off your ascent, and dropped back down to 98. By the time you returned to the point in your ascent where you went back down [70 feet] you were over 10 minutes off schedule.

For a planned 12 minute dive, 10 minutes off schedule is very deviated in my eyes.

In case you're still thinking the computer was overly conservative due to being a couple minutes beyond plan... it wasn't. It's right. You blew your plan by almost double.

SeaJay you really never answered this. You were already at your 12 minutes when you started up then at 17 minutes you started your way down to 98ft you were still at around 80ft 23 minutes into your dive. Like spectra said double your plan.

John C. Ratliff
May 16th, 2003, 11:42 PM
There's one other point, which I brough up in a PM but think should be discussed that came from this thread. That has to do with the conservative nature of the Suunto computers. Some have said to use them only as bottom timers because they "unduely" penalize the diver's bottom time. I don't quite agree.

We don't know what we need to know about microbubbles. I have a friend who was told he has some "brain lesions," and did not know how he got them. He discussed this with a diving physician, and the physician asked for some of his dive profiles. After a review (I don't know what they were) he was told that he was actually "bent" not once, but twice. He was asymptomatic.

Usually, medicine takes a long time to develop ideas about problems. This is especially true about problems that have few victims (thus few $$$, and few researchers). I really do not like the idea of developing microbubbles; we don't know their long-term effects.

After reading this thread, if I do decide to get a computer, it will probably be a Suunto. If it is more conservative than others, I feel that better, not worse. There are things to do in shallow water too.

SeaRat


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