Forensic Diving Courses

[force-e]

Hi! This is actually my first post to the board! I'm hoping that someone could offer me some enlightenment!

Does anyone know of any specific Forensic Diving Courses for the non-law enforcement/ non college student diver? I currently live in Florida and am familiar with the program at Florida State University, but the time frame is a little protracted for my schedule. (and i'm not a student at FSU). I also know of a few independent ones offered to law enforcement, unfortunately I am not law enforcement. I wouldn't have a problem traveling, just not for six months - the boss might not like that too much.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

[vablackwater]

Can a mod move this to the PSD forum?

PSD agencies such as (in no particular order):
Dive Rescue International
Emergency Response Diving International
Lifeguard Systems
Underwater Criminal Investigators

have forensic and evidence recovery specific programs. The agencies I am familiar with require a team/ public service affiliation (police, fire, ems, military) before accepting you in to a program.

[force-e]

Absolutely! I didn't really know which section to post it under.! Thanks

[sohnje]

I find your question interesting. Most forensic dive training focuses around proper collection of potential evidence and the preservation of what was collected to reduce the chance of environmental or personal contanimation. Forensic courses are limited to law enforcement as the method of evidence collection is typically not broadcast to the public for evident reasons. If your not into law enforcement, you'll never utilize the training? Would be a waste of your money or time.

[RoatanMan]

:search::sblogo: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/254500-underwater-crime-scene-investigation.html

[roturner]

Similar threads moved to PSD and merged.

[BladesRobinson]

I will ask the questions that any other responsible training agency should ask. Why would a person who is not a law enforcement officer want to attend an underwater forensic (law enforcement) diving program? How would one benefit from this training other than to possibly to commit the perfect crime?

The training you are asking about is provided on a "need to know" basis. To take a program offered through Dive Rescue International, you must be affiliated with a public safety agency or sponsored by a public safety agency. To attend Dive Rescue International's Underwater Crime Scene Technician I or Technician II programs, you must be a sworn officer or sponsored by the police chief or sheriff in your community.

We offer a "correspondence course" for our Underwater Investigation program using the Encyclopedia of Underwater Investigation (by Robert G. Teather) and the accompanying student workbook. You can purchase the Encyclopedia of Underwater Investigation (manual and workbook), through Dive Rescue International at 800-248-3483. These manuals are in the "public domain" through the publisher so that is why we offer them for sale. To obtain a Dive Rescue International certificate though, I believe the certification department will require proof of agency affiliation.

[Ed L.]

There is the consulting angle that might be an option. There is a forensics course available to locksmiths should one wish to get involved with such a thing and the locksmiths that I am on line with that do this get paid very well for consulting. Just my 2 cents worth.

[force-e]

Odd response sohnje... but you are probably right - how silly of me to think any diver would ever use skills such as low vis training or search and recovery techniques. I took a marine archaeology course in college about ten years ago - it was awesome! I have never again done any archaeology related work and it was worth every penny and hour! - especially the buoyancy control skills that were required and the overall attention to detail that was instilled. I find it a shame you have such a limited view! Thanks!

[force-e]

I will ask the questions that any other responsible training agency should ask. Why would a person who is not a law enforcement officer want to attend an underwater forensic (law enforcement) diving program? How would one benefit from this training other than to possibly to commit the perfect crime?

The training you are asking about is provided on a "need to know" basis. To take a program offered through Dive Rescue International, you must be affiliated with a public safety agency or sponsored by a public safety agency. To attend Dive Rescue International's Underwater Crime Scene Technician I or Technician II programs, you must be a sworn officer or sponsored by the police chief or sheriff in your community.

We offer a "correspondence course" for our Underwater Investigation program using the Encyclopedia of Underwater Investigation (by Robert G. Teather) and the accompanying student workbook. You can purchase the Encyclopedia of Underwater Investigation (manual and workbook), through Dive Rescue International at 800-248-3483. These manuals are in the "public domain" through the publisher so that is why we offer them for sale. To obtain a Dive Rescue International certificate though, I believe the certification department will require proof of agency affiliation.

You got me! My intention was to plan the perfect crime - that's why I posted to a public, general diving forum for information. Great catch...

I was a military diver for a number of years after completing my undergraduate studies in Criminalistics. I have worked with and been deployed with quite a few law enforcement and public saftey dive teams, SAR units, and the FBI dive teams after 9/11. I have been working in the recreational arena for a while now and pursuing my Master's in Forensic Science/ Crime Reconstruction. As part of a resume' package for a few PRIVATE companies, I thought it might be beneficial to have specific course documentation to supplement my experiences, since I never got around to "becoming law enforcement". I find it amazing, and really shortsighted, that so many people fail to see the benefits of extending one's skill set/training/ education! And then you throw in a sales plug?! I appreciate the info.

There is no such thing as a perfect crime...

[k9bady]

Unfortunately, last I heard the course that FSU offers is temporarily-permanently on hold due to state funding. Our dive team began the course and half of us made it through stage 2 of three and the others made it through stage 1 of three. It is a great course and hopefully they will start it back up. Other than that, I am unaware of any others within the state of Florida.

[Slugrusher]

Lawyer or preparing for expert testimony?

[SRQCO]

Florida Keys Community College Public Safety Diver Course (http://www.fkcc.edu/academics/as-diving-policesafety.da)

Check out this link. I just completed this course and it was excellent. I have completed other PSD classes, but this was a two week school in Key West. The instructors were knowledgeable. I’m not sure if enrollment is just dedicated to police officers, as I am one and did not have to ask about that. Definitely worth taking a look at.

[Jacky Boy]

Id be interested to know of any similar courses run in the UK that I could follow as a suppliment to my forensics degree.

It amazes me that people jump straight to suspision of someone who is not a police officer wanting to learn these techniques. Sure, if your not planing a career out of it then its a very expensive and time consming curiosity. However, that in no way indicates them to be upto no good. And to sugest that these techniques are "need to know" is ludicrus. Im not a police officer, but as a forensic science student Ive been taught all the dry land techniques, and ways in which people try and fail to cover up their crimes. For example did you know that pouring petrol (gasoline) on a body and setting it alight will at most singe the epidermus (other layer of the skin), and then only slightly. No evidence will be destroyed.

An aceademic curiosity is something to be admired, not veiwed with suspision.

[bridgediver]

A lot of the info gathered at this type of training will give the person(s) knowledge on how to do these crimes and NOT get caught - and its pretty easy to do actually... The people that are asking these things might or might not be harmless but also an open forum such as this leaves things open to anyone else to read.
Water related homicides are very difficult to prove as it is without the small amount of techniques being made public info.

To me its kind of like someone asking how to make a homemade bomb. If you don't have to deal with bombs why would you need to know?

[Jacky Boy]

A lot of the info gathered at this type of training will give the person(s) knowledge on how to do these crimes and NOT get caught - and its pretty easy to do actually... The people that are asking these things might or might not be harmless but also an open forum such as this leaves things open to anyone else to read.
Water related homicides are very difficult to prove as it is without the small amount of techniques being made public info.

To me its kind of like someone asking how to make a homemade bomb. If you don't have to deal with bombs why would you need to know?


Thats complete rubbish. As if the only reason to be curiouse about this stuff is so you can execute the perfect crime. Thats paranoid McCartheyist shpiel to the highest degree.
for one, do you really think someones going to research a crime on a scuba diving forum. Two, most murders are crimes of passion giving the murderer preciouse little time for the forethought of reserching how to comit the perfect murder. Three, if a murder is pre-meditated then really all it would take is a little common sense, and there are loads of books avalable at the library or from book shops, or watching Forensic Files on the discovery channel.
And mostly, if someone was going to do a course on forensic diving techniques to get away with murder, well then its pre-meditated, so its 999,999 times out of every 1,000,000 times (not acurate statistics, just making a point) going to be someone the killer already knows. So its going to look pretty suspiciouse when the police find this out, and then inevitably discover why they had reason to want to kill the victim.

To sugest that discussing forensic techniques is putting people at risk is nieve, and downright stupid. Please stop looking upon everyone who has the slightest bit of intelectual curiosity as suspicious.
If it was so dangerouse to be made public then perhapps someone would have stopped text-books on it being sold on AMAZON!

[bridgediver]

Thats complete rubbish. As if the only reason to be curiouse about this stuff is so you can execute the perfect crime. Thats paranoid McCartheyist shpiel to the highest degree.
for one, do you really think someones going to research a crime on a scuba diving forum. Two, most murders are crimes of passion giving the murderer preciouse little time for the forethought of reserching how to comit the perfect murder. Three, if a murder is pre-meditated then really all it would take is a little common sense, and there are loads of books avalable at the library or from book shops, or watching Forensic Files on the discovery channel.
And mostly, if someone was going to do a course on forensic diving techniques to get away with murder, well then its pre-meditated, so its 999,999 times out of every 1,000,000 times (not acurate statistics, just making a point) going to be someone the killer already knows. So its going to look pretty suspiciouse when the police find this out, and then inevitably discover why they had reason to want to kill the victim.

To sugest that discussing forensic techniques is putting people at risk is nieve, and downright stupid. Please stop looking upon everyone who has the slightest bit of intelectual curiosity as suspicious.
If it was so dangerouse to be made public then perhapps someone would have stopped text-books on it being sold on AMAZON!

Jacky boy

I see that you are new to the forum and your profile indicates that you also are pretty young and inexperienced. Even so, you are entilitled to your opinion but just so you know we don't call people names on this forum.

I don't think my veiw point is naive but yours may be. I have actual experience and training to back it up where you, on the other hand, may need to get your nose out of books and actually see what goes on in the real world.

Is it paranoid? Sure is but that's the way the world is these days.

[ditch-diver]

maybe not necessarily for committing the perfect murder..., but a trained defense lawyer who has taken a course to plant a seed of reasonable doubt and get some murderer back on the streets instead of in jail where they belong. Anyone can read a book.., but to say in court that you have taken and successfully completed a course is totally different.

It is the same premise of why we continually turn down lawyers requests to give them a Breathalyzer Course.

Want info.., I'll talk for hours and tell you stories and information to fill your boots. Give you a full course complete with formal training and a certificate to produce down the road?? Sorry. We've been burned, working hard to not let it happen again.

[BladesRobinson]

Ditch, you reasoning also explains why most professional certifying agencies don't offer public safety diver training to people who are not affiliated with a public safety dive team. Nothing undermines a public safety dive team more than having a journalist, attorney or civilian stating they are public safety diving "experts" and holding out their XXXX PSD card as "proof."

[ditch-diver]

I hear ya Blades.., "Been there.... " as the saying goes

[Jacky Boy]

Jacky boy

I see that you are new to the forum and your profile indicates that you also are pretty young and inexperienced. Even so, you are entilitled to your opinion but just so you know we don't call people names on this forum.

I don't think my veiw point is naive but yours may be. I have actual experience and training to back it up where you, on the other hand, may need to get your nose out of books and actually see what goes on in the real world.

Is it paranoid? Sure is but that's the way the world is these days.

I didnt call you any names, I insulted your view of the world, as I believe that that sort of paranoid mentality is one of the many things wrong with the world.
You can claim to be better informed of the world at large than I am due to your age, and you can imply that my aceademic studying is far removed from the reality that you know so well.
Well I do pay attention to the real world, and I take lessons from history, and current events. It doesnt matter how well informed someone is, what matters is their intent. You cant hide the information that you think should be hidden, but you can make someones life a misery by concluding from their curiositys or studys that their upto no good. There have been several cases in the past few months in the UK where the police and CPS have been frankly humiliated by taking people to court, just for looking at information on the internet, when they were clearly just bored and 'surfing the web'


maybe not necessarily for committing the perfect murder..., but a trained defense lawyer who has taken a course to plant a seed of reasonable doubt and get some murderer back on the streets instead of in jail where they belong. Anyone can read a book.., but to say in court that you have taken and successfully completed a course is totally different.

It is the same premise of why we continually turn down lawyers requests to give them a Breathalyzer Course.

Want info.., I'll talk for hours and tell you stories and information to fill your boots. Give you a full course complete with formal training and a certificate to produce down the road?? Sorry. We've been burned, working hard to not let it happen again.

Well I think you said it all with 'reasonable doubt'. Believe it or not some people are innocent, and if the doubt is reasonable, then they dont belong in prison. If what you are reffering to is a technicality however then I take your point, but I dont see what legal technicality could actually arise from examining an underwater crime scene.

So your making sure that lawyers who work on traffic cases are uninformed and there fore unable to contest, or even uphold, what the technology (which of course has never, ever been wrong) tells us. And should the cop have not correctly followed procedure, that is there I would presume to ensure the test is accurate, the lawyer would not have the knowledge to contest it. Well I'm glad to see your making sure the law is upheld and justice is always being served. Really good job there, well done.
Is it just defence lawyers you exclude? Do you let the prosocution lawyers take it?


Ditch, you reasoning also explains why most professional certifying agencies don't offer public safety diver training to people who are not affiliated with a public safety dive team. Nothing undermines a public safety dive team more than having a journalist, attorney or civilian stating they are public safety diving "experts" and holding out their XXXX PSD card as "proof."

Whats the use of the training someone on a PSD team if its not of the standard to make them an expert?
And what damage could a Journalist, atterny or civillian do, if they were trained to the same standard as you? are civilians all incompetent fools who wouldnt be able to cope?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Im guessing your all in law enforcement of some type. I think the reason most courses are tought only to police, firemen or PSD teams is more to do with the training given being specific to those poroffesions. And less to do with what us lesser life forms might get upto with this information. As I said before, the books used to teach some of these courses are publicly avalable (I looked at a few agencies who only teach police, fire and PSD teams), so the information is avalable to anyone.
Most Teamwork and managment stratergy courses are only avalable to corporete clients, but I dont think their really worried about what would happen if a public servent got hold of their information. It seems the same principal to me.
But if you want to think its because your more trustworthy with this sacred information then thats upto you.

Well, ive found an agency which teaches a course that police, forensic scientists and the public who are considering this as a career can complete. Extra credit, the perfect crime, and getting bad guys out on the street, here I come!

[bridgediver]

I didnt call you any names, I insulted your view of the world,
Very well. We don't insult each other's opinion, view, personality or anything else on here. We respect one another even though we may disagree.

You mentioned earlier on that "An aceademic curiosity is something to be admired" - maybe so but maybe an academic knowledge of a subject should be at least respected (especially by those that claim they are curious).

Its easy to cast stones into the arena as a spectator and claim you know how the game is played but until you've actually been IN the game you don't know.


But if you want to think its because your more trustworthy...
That's pretty much it actually. People involved with this kind of work have criminal checks, physicological profiles etc and tend to be held more accountable for their actions then the regular person exactly for this reason.
You can scoff at it all you want but do you really want an ex-drug dealer patrolling the streets or a pedophile working on your ambulance?

[zaberman1]

Hi! This is actually my first post to the board! I'm hoping that someone could offer me some enlightenment!

Does anyone know of any specific Forensic Diving Courses for the non-law enforcement/ non college student diver? I currently live in Florida and am familiar with the program at Florida State University, but the time frame is a little protracted for my schedule. (and i'm not a student at FSU). I also know of a few independent ones offered to law enforcement, unfortunately I am not law enforcement. I wouldn't have a problem traveling, just not for six months - the boss might not like that too much.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Try contacting Gregg Stanton at the Wakulla Dive Center in North Florida...he is a consultant and one of the authors for the forensic dive program at FSU.

Wakulla Diving Center Florida CCR Training/Repair/Support (http://www.wakulladiving.com)

[force-e]

Hi to all again!

I have to admit that the response I received from my initial post was surprising, and depresing. I gave it a week and stopped looking - it wasn't worth my time - I felt like I was in middle school again! I found the replies and the direction that the thread was taking to be completely ridiculous! I have not been back to Scuba Board in any capacity since, but somehow my SPAM filter allowed a recent notification through and it peaked my curiosity!
I wanted to say thank you to all that took their time to respond with positive information, and to those who sent me pm's, I appreciate it. Best Wishes!

[muddiver]

Id be interested to know of any similar courses run in the UK that I could follow as a suppliment to my forensics degree.

It amazes me that people jump straight to suspision of someone who is not a police officer wanting to learn these techniques. Sure, if your not planing a career out of it then its a very expensive and time consming curiosity. However, that in no way indicates them to be upto no good. And to sugest that these techniques are "need to know" is ludicrus. Im not a police officer, but as a forensic science student Ive been taught all the dry land techniques, and ways in which people try and fail to cover up their crimes. For example did you know that pouring petrol (gasoline) on a body and setting it alight will at most singe the epidermus (other layer of the skin), and then only slightly. No evidence will be destroyed.

An aceademic curiosity is something to be admired, not veiwed with suspision.


What you fail to realize is that in the U.S. the prevailing view of law enforecment offices is that there are only three types of people in the world: Cops, criminals and those that just have not been cought yet.

[Jacky Boy]

Very well. We don't insult each other's opinion, view, personality or anything else on here. We respect one another even though we may disagree. Actually you (as a forum community) do. Have a look around. My frustration at the eletist views you hold are acurately portrayed by my comments. To put it less plainly would water down how angry that 'trust no one but ourselves' attitude makes me.

You mentioned earlier on that "An aceademic curiosity is something to be admired" - maybe so but maybe an academic knowledge of a subject should be at least respected (especially by those that claim they are curious). Are you an aecademic or a police officer? their view of the police and the world dont tend to coinside. You sound like a police officer.
--EDIT-- Just checked your profile, your a paramedic, not a police officer. You do talk like one though. Do you have any connection to aecademic criminology? --EDIT--

Its easy to cast stones into the arena as a spectator and claim you know how the game is played but until you've actually been IN the game you don't know.I dont know what your reffering to by 'the game'. If you mean the world at large, I'm quite capable of standing within the arena and forming my own opion based on my observations.
If you mean my comments on missplaced suspicion making innocent peoples lives a misery, or about refusing lawyers the information needed to properly defend their clients then there is definately justifacation to 'throw stones' as it were. Thats a dirty way to play the game. However sure you may be in your suspicions, denying them a fair trial is not justice. You dont need to be a week from retirement before you realise that.


That's pretty much it actually. People involved with this kind of work have criminal checks, physicological profiles etc and tend to be held more accountable for their actions then the regular person exactly for this reason.
You can scoff at it all you want but do you really want an ex-drug dealer patrolling the streets or a pedophile working on your ambulance?Do you really think im sugesting that we dont check peoples criminal reccord before putting them into public service?
If thats the only thing that makes you more qualified than the rest of the population them I'm sorry to burst your bubble mate, but most of the workforce have criminal reccords checks, plus anyone aplying for university (so I hear). And its nice to see you DO think your more trustworthy than the rest of the population, but as its already been established, all the information and training were discussing is avalable to the public. It seems to be more a matter of public liability than you not being scum like the rest of us.


What you fail to realize is that in the U.S. the prevailing view of law enforecment offices is that there are only three types of people in the world: Cops, criminals and those that just have not been cought yet.

:rofl3:

(Id like to point out that as far as I'm concerned the vast majority of the police force in the UK, and I'm sure in the US too, do an oustanding job and are a credit to their communities. However, just like in any other job there are those with prejudices, and/or an inflated view of their own improtance. Unfortunately these people have real power and destroy confidence between the entire police force and the public)

[bridgediver]

an internet forum (or the contents of it) makes you angry?

Since this forum is set up for PSD's - and we all get along OK without getting 'angry' maybe you don't need to participate? Think of your health, man!:shakehead:

My reference to "the game" is the PSD world and you definately do not know it. -- Don't get mad! Its OK to not know everything! I'm sure you know a whole pile of stuff that I do not and I'm not angry

Yes I've had courses and real experience in underwater and water related crime scenes so I'm not talking out my ass. This training I've had is assuredly not available to the public. -- again, don't get excited but thats the way it is
Curious though. Are you saying that police officers cannot be academics? Who's being elitist now?


Because I understand something that you do not I'm an elitist... OK, if you say so...:confused:
I'm probably one of the more humble people you'd ever meet (but your mind is made up). Its pretty easy to get into this feild if anyone is so inclined but you do have to follow the process. Its there for a reason that you don't agree with but its there nonetheless. I didn't make the rules but I do understand them.

I'd try to explain it to you so you could understand but... you're angry...

[Jacky Boy]

an internet forum (or the contents of it) makes you angry? No, this is a lovely forum, your suspision of someone who came on to to find out about a course avalable to them made me angry. You and others were basically accusing them of being a criminal wanting to figure out how to get away with crimes.

Since this forum is set up for PSD's - and we all get along OK without getting 'angry' maybe you don't need to participate? Think of your health, man!:shakehead:I'm sure your very popular on the forum, and my arguing with you had made me un-popular. But I think I can live with that, and I enjoy participating, even f you dont enjoy me participating. And maybe when you make accusing comments towards someone asking a perfectly legitimate question, thats nor people getting along fine. My healths fine, thank you for your consern.

My reference to "the game" is the PSD world and you definately do not know it. -- Don't get mad! Its OK to not know everything! I'm sure you know a whole pile of stuff that I do not and I'm not angry I never claimed to know it. You keep putting words in my mouth. I know alot about the practical world of a forensic science however, and the avalability of information and training, above and below water. Its not as closed off as you clearly think.

Yes I've had courses and real experience in underwater and water related crime scenes so I'm not talking out my ass. This training I've had is assuredly not available to the public.Im not so sure. Courses avalable to the police are also avalable to the public. Most arn't, but Ive already said why I believe that is about 5 times. -- again, don't get excited but thats the way it is
Curious though. Are you saying that police officers cannot be academics?Nope, Jock Young, Tim Newburn, Robert Reiner and several others I cant remember off the top of my head are ex-police officers turned aceademics. And also very prolific in current Criminology. But no, a serving police officer doesnt have the time to be an aecademic, although they may come from an aecademic background. Its not clear cut, theres shades of grey. However the majority of police officers in the UK do not come from an aecademic background and they retire from the police at retirement age. These officers grow up in the culture of the police, and its that view of the world I'm refering to. (if your interested, look at Reiners and Youngs work. Their UK though, dont know any US ones. Bound to be some associated to the Chicago School of Criminology though). And I'm not, as you seem to think I am, sugesting that aecademics are in any way beter people than police officers, or anyone else. And anyone, from any background can be one. Is simply a career choice. Who's being elitist now?Still you I'm afraid


Because I understand something that you do not I'm an elitistNo, its because you exclude others from the training which got you that understanding on the basis that your better than them that makes you elitist.... OK, if you say so...:confused:
I'm probably one of the more humble people you'd ever meetVery modest and humble statement (but your mind is made up). Its pretty easy to get into this feild if anyone is so inclined but you do have to follow the process.There are processes that dont involve being a police officer, a fireman or in a PSD team Its there for a reason that you don't agree with but its there nonetheless. I didn't make the rules but I do understand them.I dont think you do, I think you've seen the system and put your own meaning upon it that makes you feel privaleged.

I'd try to explain it to you so you could understand but... you're angry...You havnt said anything I dont understand, just things I disagree with (you do know theres a difference rite?). If you've got more information to explain, dont hold back. But I'm getting bored of arguing over syntax, so please refrain from putting words into my mouth.

.....

[bridgediver]

..This training I've had is assuredly not available to the public.Im not so sure. Courses avalable to the police are also avalable to the public....
Sure. But the training I have had is NOT public. You keep saying that it is but I don't know how you'd know this having never taken the training I have taken. Sure you can find books and such but learning the trade from an actual expert in feild is not in books nor is it public domain.


..its because you exclude others from the training which got you that understanding on the basis that your better than them that makes you elitist....
I don't exclude anyone - if you want to be a PSD come on out (my team needs more divers!). Further, I NEVER said I was better than anyone - I took this stuff because its my job and so I could do my job better.
If anything, you're better off then me by not knowing this crap.
Again, thanks for the name calling -- real mature of you (calling me an elistist all the time is insulting even if you don't mean it to be - and I'm pretty sure you do mean it as an insult)


..I dont think you do, I think you've seen the system and put your own meaning upon it that makes you feel privaleged. ....
Well... You think wrong. Amazing that you think you know me so well after a couple of days of internet banter... What's my favorite colour?


..You havnt said anything I dont understand....
Its evident to me that you don't understand PSD (you even admit that) so I don't know how to explain it to you. It takes a lot more then a convoluted internet discussion to understand this


..so please refrain from putting words into my mouth....
ditto
I don't see where I misquoted you BTW

I don't even know what we're talking about anymore - this is beyond ridiculous

[zaberman1]

why don't we lock this particular thread and whoever wants to keep bantering like little girls can do so through pm's. Absolutely nothing productive has been said/accomplished...

[bridgediver]

why don't we lock this particular thread and whoever wants to keep bantering like little girls can do so through pm's. Absolutely nothing productive has been said/accomplished...

Well that's not entirely true. I've learnt that I'm an elitest - my wife is thinks its hysterical :D

I do apologize to the rest of you though that the 'discussion' is now basically about -- nothing. I'm very passionate about this feild and I do often get carried away - perhaps the only similarity between Jacky and myself

I'm out!:coffee:

[Jacky Boy]

Sure. But the training I have had is NOT public. You keep saying that it is but I don't know how you'd know this having never taken the training I have taken. Sure you can find books and such but learning the trade from an actual expert in feild is not in books nor is it public domain.


I don't exclude anyone - if you want to be a PSD come on out (my team needs more divers!). Further, I NEVER said I was better than anyone - I took this stuff because its my job and so I could do my job better.
If anything, you're better off then me by not knowing this crap.
Again, thanks for the name calling -- real mature of you (calling me an elistist all the time is insulting even if you don't mean it to be - and I'm pretty sure you do mean it as an insult)


Well... You think wrong. Amazing that you think you know me so well after a couple of days of internet banter... What's my favorite colour?


Its evident to me that you don't understand PSD (you even admit that) so I don't know how to explain it to you. It takes a lot more then a convoluted internet discussion to understand this


ditto
I don't see where I misquoted you BTW

I don't even know what we're talking about anymore - this is beyond ridiculous

... I'm bored of this now. You've completely twisted everything Ive said. No I don't know you but your coments make certain aspects of your character compleately clear. I' called it as I saw it, if thats insulting then so be it.

[Jacky Boy]

why don't we lock this particular thread and whoever wants to keep bantering like little girls can do so through pm's. Absolutely nothing productive has been said/accomplished...

Your absolutely rite. I apologuise.
Bridge, im sure in person youre very nice.
Everyone else, sorry to take up so much of your time, but if you kept reading then you must have enjoyed it, even just a little.

I know I did.

[Jacky Boy]

I'm bored again. Will someone else argue with me please.

[TC]

I'm bored again. Will someone else argue with me please.
Feel free to go to the "Pub" forum here- there will be plenty of takers there. :D

In here it's not really appropriate.

[Jacky Boy]

Feel free to go to the "Pub" forum here- there will be plenty of takers there. :D

In here it's not really appropriate.

Can do :D

[RU4SKUBA]

"I will ask the questions that any other responsible training agency should ask. Why would a person who is not a law enforcement officer want to attend an underwater forensic (law enforcement) diving program? How would one benefit from this training other than to possibly to commit the perfect crime?"

Just as someone who was not in law enforcement would be interested in a career in Forensics! I have 7 emails in my Spam folder right now that offer forensics courses to the average Joe looking for a new career and none (that I've seen) require either a background in law enforcement or EMT/fireman.

The inherent judgement --and arrogance-- of the quote by Blades, and the supporting statements of Bridge (who contributed significantly to the inflammatory nature of the thread) are loaded with insulting and provoking language while also hypocritically accusing someone who simply disagreed with them as a name-caller.

Our enemies aren't reading forums on Public Safety diving and they're not going to announce themselves asking FAQ questions easily answered in a dozen other locations or through a simple search of the forums.

This guy asked a simple question that has occurred to many people who would love to dive as their career and I doubt a single one has thought to use the skills in a conspiracy to commit a heinous crime.

[chelopez]

I tech several courses to law enforcement and forensic profesionals, but have been asked several times about the value and suitability of making this type of training available to the diving public. There are many reasons for the people to want to learn and participate of this type of activities. One such instance is documenting instances in which damages are caused to coral reefs and other sensitive marine and aquatic environments. There is a programme sponsored by the Central Caribbean Marine Institute called Dive with a Researcher (DWAR), in which the public is invited to participate in marine research activities, depending on the availability of the principal investigators. While conducting my research activities there, I had a few divers participate and learn at the same time my methods and techniques. I believe they are trying to schedule me to do another such course and you should be able to find the information if you google the Central Caribbean Marine Institute, in Little Cayman, Cayman Islands.

[pantheraba]

Chelopez,

Good reply to a good question that was originally asked...I find your reply interesting because it shows that by thinking "outside the box" that forensics can be applied to endeavors other than crime scene management.

I am pretty new to the PSD dive scene...I have gone through the ERDI training and am learning the ropes on our team. When the call for a PSD mission comes through our team will be reporting as needed and will have to be the ones that attend to the crime scene if it is such ("all PSD scenes are crime scenes until determined otherwise"...I remember). Only one of our divers is law enforcement...a State trooper, nice guy, also a newbie like me...along with his wife who is a paramedic...the rest of us are "Joe Blows" that want to use our diving skills to be of service to the community (newbies to PSD, not diving).

So...no law enforcement in my background or in most of our PSD team...but I, too, would welcome the chance to learn proper forensics methods for when they are needed. I have read the materials that we are provided about forensics and talked about it with the more experienced members but still have much to learn.

Thanks, force-e, for asking a good question.

[Upstate Scuba OWI]

Ok to avoid an confusion this training tip is for those who can apply because they are a memeber of any Public Safety Agency that may receive Homeland Security grant money. www.manta96.com (http://www.manta96.com) is the site to the Mid Atlantic Narcotics Training academy they have crime scene diver coursed available for free.