I know that I will probably get flamed for asking, but has anyone ever heard of caging the valves and mounting twins how would you say "upside down" I'm having some problems reaching the valves over my head a muscular upper body and short arms are a real limiting factor and in thinking about it, it would be much easier to reach down by my thighs to shut down posts than over my head, I would like some feedback pros and cons.
Please be kind.... it's just food for thought. I know it's not DIR But I'm sure that I'm not the only one out there with this problem?
After all if it is functional isn't that what counts, it doesn't do me much good if it looks good but I can't obtain the objective.
Thanks
Rob
Soggy
May 18th, 2003, 06:56 PM
Think about how you will put the rig on and take it off. With the valve down, you are likely to sit on or otherwise crush the valve and/or regulator.
Cave Diver
May 18th, 2003, 07:51 PM
Before you get carried away trying to create a solution for a problem that may not exist, let me ask a few questions.
Since you mentioned "twins" it's only doubles that you are considering mounting upsided down?
Have you ever worn doubles?
If you have, have you actually tried doing shutdowns, or are you making the assumption that due to your build it will be difficult?
If your answer to either of the last two questions is "no", I would suggest trying it valve up before looking into alternatives.
Also keep in mind that it is sometimes easier to reach the valves when you are properly trimmed in the water than it is when just trying to do the drill on land.
You might also have to play with tank height and adjustment to get it in the proper position for you to reach it.
Mounting tanks upside down can lead to a host of other problems, including having to get special hoses made up in order to get the necessary length.
Walter
May 18th, 2003, 08:15 PM
Actually, this is not a new concept. It's never been the norm, but is was not unheard of in the 50's. Cousteau's divers have often have tanks set up similar to what you describe, although I believe they were also in a housing. That being said, I agree with Cave Diver. Try fixing the problem upright before moving to other options.
FLL Diver
May 18th, 2003, 08:52 PM
This was discussed last year at length in this thread. (http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7977) It also includes a link to an article about the Royal Navy using this configuration.
Marc
LUBOLD8431
May 18th, 2003, 09:22 PM
Ok, i think this is a bad idea for alot of reasons, but i have one question: How do you shut down the isolation??? Reach between your legs???
That config just doesnt sound that appealing to me...
Braunbehrens
May 19th, 2003, 02:25 AM
rdriver once bubbled...
I'm having some problems reaching the valves over my head a muscular upper body and short arms
Rob, I know this may sound obvious, but have you tried stretching? Your valves should not be that hard to reach. It helps to have a friend take your hand so you can find them, then keep practicing.
It sounds like you work out. Just incorporate a shoulder stretch at the end of your workout. You know the drill...grasp your hands together behind your back, if you can't reach start with a towel in between. After a while you should have no problem.
I would get a slobwinder before I'd mount my tanks upside down...
You can also slide the tanks up a little in the bands. this is not good for trim, but what the heck, maybe with time you can slide them back down.
Wendy
May 19th, 2003, 08:28 AM
Before you go to mounting tanks upside down (which Ihave seen pics of, but none in person) try reaching your valves while horizontal in the water. While vertical I can barely turn them, but horizontal its mush easier.
sheck33
May 19th, 2003, 12:36 PM
The question on mounting tanks upside down or not has been answered. I just wanted to throw in that caging the first stages is really a bad solution for fixing bad bouyancy control, i am not saying you have bad B-control but that was the reason divers caged their 1st stages. It is the same for using an 80/20 mix for deco, bad solution to fix B-control problems.
Bob3
May 19th, 2003, 01:34 PM
After you try out the helpful suggestions listed above & if you are still are not able to reach your valves, you might want to consider a set of tanks/valves that are MADE to be used inverted from the get go.
Check out: http://www.interspiro.com/divator.html
The rig never caught on in the US because it was introduced in the late '60s, early '70s & a 4400 psi fill was impossible to find.
The composite bottles aren't approved for the US, but the steel bottles are.
DIR Tec Diver
May 20th, 2003, 08:00 AM
Mounting tanks upside down is a bad idea and there are a score of fatalities to back that up. There is a good reason why it is advises, accepted, recommended etc. that you keep your valves in the proper top position. It is safer, easier to access, less likely for damage to occur etc. etc. There isn't a good reason to stray from this as there is so much data to support the reasoning why. Not to mention that the worlds best divers, the record holders and the ones with the most experience all agree on this is a good indication to not reinvent the wheel and stick with what works. There are just too many horror stories from incidents with inverted tanks.
bridgediver
May 20th, 2003, 08:18 AM
I'm not using doubles yet but eventually will. I was wondering if it is easier to reach the valves on the doubles then the valave on a single tank? --- I certainly hope so because I think I will have the same problem as rdriver. I can't even get close to reaching the valve for my single.
Exept for the reason soggy gave, the donning problem of the rig, why is it a bad idea to invert the tanks?
only curious
DIR Tec Diver
May 20th, 2003, 08:33 AM
Ok, good question. If the valve is upside down, there is a large probability of damage. Also if there is a damage, leak etc. from the first stage or valve, it is almost impossible to notice, feel or hear it. Probably you notice it when the hose goes tight. Not fun.
There have also been many divers who have sat on, knocked and countless other blunders to their tanks when inverted, and lets face it, equipment is not cheap.
If you are having trouble reaching the valve for your tank, then the tank is not positioned properly. If you have the tank as high as it can go then there might be an issue with the type of bcd you are using and it may not allow you to position it properly.
If you use a plate/harness usually there is no issues what so ever, and in the unlikely event that you are in a position where it is difficult, you loosen the belt buckle on the harness to all you to push up the plate/harness to reach the valve.
Also your hands should always be in a position where you can see the computer on your right hand, compass on the left, and access your spg clipped off on the waist d ring. reaching over your shoulder and behind your neck to do gas shut off or to isolate a tank is very very easy and accessible. Having the valves below and behind in a tight spot can leave you in a position to not have any way to do a shutdown, and the obvious result of that is scary. If your hands are always in a position to reach the valves below you then how do you look at your gauges? You can't. How do you adjust the buoyancy for the bcd and dry suit? you can't. With your hands and valves in the forward position you have easy access to everything you need.
I hope this helps.
rmediver2002
May 20th, 2003, 08:39 AM
Just interested in some information on the fatalities from diving with the tank inverted?
Mounting tanks upside down is a bad idea and there are a score of fatalities to back that up
I have not seen it done in recreational situations but for SCBA operations it is the norm.
Very common for emergency gas supply in commercial work to be inverted as well.
Jeff Lane
Bob3
May 20th, 2003, 11:57 AM
The only good reason inverting is not done more often is because scuba valves are not designed to take the kind of abuse that they'd get subjected to.
SCBA bottles are much lighter & their valves are designed and made to handle the rough treatment.
I dive my bailouts inverted, sometimes even slung crossways on my butt. MUCH less chance to whack the critters, and also much easier to clear when fouled.
After all, which is easier; scratching your butt, or scratching yourself between the shoulderblades?
I'll stay away from commenting on the dive computer useage. :tease:
MechDiver
May 20th, 2003, 02:49 PM
DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
Also your hands should always be in a position where you can see the computer on your right hand, compass on the left, and access your spg clipped off on the waist d ring. reaching over your shoulder and behind your neck to do gas shut off or to isolate a tank is very very easy and accessible. Having the valves below and behind in a tight spot can leave you in a position to not have any way to do a shutdown, and the obvious result of that is scary. If your hands are always in a position to reach the valves below you then how do you look at your gauges? You can't. How do you adjust the buoyancy for the bcd and dry suit? you can't. With your hands and valves in the forward position you have easy access to everything you need.
I hope this helps.
I'm curious. Do you ever read this nonsense that you post, or does it just materialize?
Instead of saying the valves work better up because they do, you give a load of utter nonsense trying to prove a non-thing. Are you really a tec diver, or one of those 3 day DIR-F wonders?
Never mind, I don't care.
This also applies to that stupid statement you made about "scores have died".
You people really crack me up.
voidware
May 20th, 2003, 04:59 PM
Bob,
I was under the impression that those divator rigs were actually pretty popular. There are several of them collecting dust at my shop. Apparantly, they know of one guy that still uses his.
The best part about mounting tanks upside down, though, is the jet-pack effect when your friends take a hammer to the valves. :)
brandon
Bob3
May 20th, 2003, 05:12 PM
One of my crazy friends took an old aluminum bottle, taped a couple of half-sticks of dynamite on the side of the valve & stuck it in a big pipe. Darn thing only went about 50 yards. (got it on video though)
... collecting dust at my shop ... Divators are popular in Europe, not so much here in the USA.
The critters give about 80 some cu ft of gas if filled properly, and they're in a nice compact form. Excellent balance. An old Seatec wing even fits on their harness with very little modification. Pretty radical for back in the early '70s.
They need over 12,000 psi for a hydro though, another snag for a small town diver.
Any of them for sale? ;)
Have any triple 40s?
bridgediver
May 21st, 2003, 12:25 PM
maybe I'm a little thick but could you explain what you mean
"Also your hands should always be in a position where you can see the computer on your right hand, compass on the left, and access your spg clipped off on the waist d ring. reaching over your shoulder and behind your neck to do gas shut off or to isolate a tank is very very easy and accessible. Having the valves below and behind in a tight spot can leave you in a position to not have any way to do a shutdown, and the obvious result of that is scary. If your hands are always in a position to reach the valves below you then how do you look at your gauges? You can't. How do you adjust the buoyancy for the bcd and dry suit? you can't. With your hands and valves in the forward position you have easy access to everything you need."
How does the inversion of tanks affect where your hands are? It would only take a moment to shut off a tank in either position so your hands would be free after that to do with them what you will.
It would be easier to turn a tank valve if they are inverted - its just easier to reach the hip then the shoulder blade don't you think? I don't agree that inverted tanks put the valves in a tight spot at all. To me, the upright tanks are harder to reach.
anyone else?
bridgediver
May 21st, 2003, 12:33 PM
Also your hands should always be in a position where you can see the computer on your right hand, compass on the left, and access your spg clipped off on the waist d ring. reaching over your shoulder and behind your neck to do gas shut off or to isolate a tank is very very easy and accessible. Having the valves below and behind in a tight spot can leave you in a position to not have any way to do a shutdown, and the obvious result of that is scary. If your hands are always in a position to reach the valves below you then how do you look at your gauges? You can't. How do you adjust the buoyancy for the bcd and dry suit? you can't. With your hands and valves in the forward position you have easy access to everything you need.
I hope this helps. [/B][/QUOTE]
was supposed to be in above post
oopppss
DIR Tec Diver
May 22nd, 2003, 12:13 PM
most people when not using a scooter have their arms folded or crossed in front of them, or when looking around with the light slightly extended etc. so just under your line of sight your gauges and bottom timer are there when you need a quick look. It also keeps your hands right next to the lp inflator and dry suit inflator to adjust buoyancy. Also you minimize the excessive movement when all the areas you need to adjust, look at touch etc are in a more confined area
Having the tanks inverted also adds the issue of much longer hose routings going across the length body. This poses a much larger risk of entangelment and hazards as well.
With the tanks and valves in the proper position you are much more streamlined, have better trim and you have a higher degree of safety.
MechDiver
May 22nd, 2003, 02:58 PM
DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
With the tanks and valves in the proper position you are much more streamlined, have better trim and you have a higher degree of safety.
Nonsense. You really have no idea what you're talking about do you? Can you spell P A R R O T?
Bob3
May 22nd, 2003, 07:04 PM
Properly rigged hoses on inverted tanks are much less snag prone than upright bottles, there is nothing on your shoulders. (routes up the armpit)
Try it out the next time you need to do a blackwater crawl through a pile of tree branches & roots or concrete w/rebar.
Braunbehrens
May 22nd, 2003, 11:07 PM
There are a couple of organizations that mount tanks like this. Other than that, I just wouldn't do it because it's so unusual that it may cause problems down the line. For example, other divers won't know how your rig works. Also, if it does cause some kind of problem, we may not know about it because so few people dive like this.
If you seek any training, they'll most likely make you change it. If not, the instructor will have no experience with it and won't be able to teach you as well.
To me the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
I also think that if the problem is reaching the valves, then this can be dealt with. Going to an upside down setup is going to be much more of a headache than stretching the shoulder after each workout.
Cages around the valves are just an entanglement hazard, I wouldn't do it. It's also unnecessary...unless of course you can't see where you are going, or you have your tanks upside down. ;-)
Tigerscuba
May 24th, 2003, 02:49 PM
I have a friend thats 5'4 190 and powerlifter, he had the same problem. But after some gear adjustments and alot of practice he had no problems. I would just get a partner to help adjust your gear and guide your hands till you can get it yourself.
Butch103
May 25th, 2003, 12:16 PM
DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
Also your hands should always be in a position where you can see the computer on your right hand, compass on the left, and access your spg clipped off on the waist d ring. reaching over your shoulder and behind your neck to do gas shut off or to isolate a tank is very very easy and accessible. Having the valves below and behind in a tight spot can leave you in a position to not have any way to do a shutdown, and the obvious result of that is scary. If your hands are always in a position to reach the valves below you then how do you look at your gauges? You can't. How do you adjust the buoyancy for the bcd and dry suit? you can't. With your hands and valves in the forward position you have easy access to everything you need.
I hope this helps.
As someone else has asked.."Whats easier? Scratching your arse or between your shoulder blades?"
Also what is the crap about the hands in front?....What is the difference of shutting off the tank from reaching back behind your head or your butt??......
I don't know about you, but I don't have eyes in back of my head or my arse....So in either case as soon as you reach to shut off the tank you have lost sight off your compass and/or computer.
Sorry I buy most of this post...but I do agree of the potential damage to the usual type of valves that we currently use, from dropping , banging etc.....But I do have to defer that judgement to the resident commercial divers who use the typw of configuration at times....
saturated
May 27th, 2003, 12:52 PM
http://www.customdivers.com/remotelead.htm
rdriver
June 5th, 2003, 08:59 PM
First of all I would like to thank all of you for your replies Pros and cons..... at least I got some people wondering......
I finally found a comfortable way to shut valves off, I have to loosen my rig quite a bit and stand on my head to pull it up enough to reach the posts ..... but it is doable.....not great but doable.
thanks again
Rob
Braunbehrens
June 5th, 2003, 10:10 PM
rdriver once bubbled...
First of all I would like to thank all of you for your replies Pros and cons..... at least I got some people wondering......
I finally found a comfortable way to shut valves off, I have to loosen my rig quite a bit and stand on my head to pull it up enough to reach the posts ..... but it is doable.....not great but doable.
thanks again
Rob
Rob, do yourself a favor and take a class. What you are describing is not really all that safe. When the sh hits the F, you don't want to have to do acrobatics.
A GUE Fund. class will cover this.
If you don't want to take a class, just ask a local instructor to spend 1 hour with you adjusting the rig. That's the minimum I would do.
Good luck with it.
Doppler
June 6th, 2003, 06:28 AM
Used to dive with a guy from Russia who dove with the tanks inverted... strange rig. And of course commercial bail outs for surface-supplied divers are inverted... well, that's the way we used them.
However, I assume you are not a working diver, but recreational. In that case you'd likely find it worth while to conform to what is unarguably the norm and have your tank valves behind your head. If they are difficult to reach, and you still have some rotator cuff left in both sholders, there are a couple of Yoga / Tai Chi exercises that will open up your mobility.
You do well to ask though because if you can't operate your tank valves, your safety in the water is seriously compromised in my opinion.
Anyway, work at it mate and I would seriously suggest dropping by your local Y and asking a yoga instructor for some tips...
