Delta 4 FDX 10 problem

[RIOceanographer]

I just received my Delta 4/FDX10 regulator back from annual service. It worked great before it was serviced. When I tested it on land it seemed to work just as it should, however, I took it on two dives and had some bizarre freeflowing issues. It was a cold dive (39 degrees), so I suppose icing is a possibility, but I've done many dives that cold without a problem using this regulator.

Dive 1 yesterday, I went to about 50 ft. Passing 40 ft or so I started getting a problem where I would inhale, the regulator would properly shut off delivery at the end of the inhalation cycle. However, while I was exhaling the second stage would start to crack open and freeflow more and more as time passed until I inhaled again which reset it. The cycle would then repeat. Tuning the second stage down with the adjustment knob stopped it so I didn't think much of it.

Unfortunately, on the second dive this morning, the issue was worse. I went to 94 ft and by the time I reached that depth both my primary and secondary regulators were having the freeflow issue which suggests to me the first stage intermediate pressure is varying and is the source of the problem. I had to crank the second stage adjustment all the way to maximum to stop it from leaking. Luckily my octo also had an adjustment so I was able to stop it as well. As I got shallower the problem seemed to be less severe. By the time I got it back the parking lot it was acting normally again.

I took it back to the shop and the guy that serviced it was baffled and can't seem to find anything wrong with it. Needless to say that's a bit frustrating.

Any ideas what my be going on or what should be done? Is there some reason the first stage intermediate pressure could be creeping up as a I get deeper?

Thanks

[300bar]

Did the shop check the IP :confused:

[RIOceanographer]

Yes, according to the shop the IP looks fine on the bench.

[300bar]

I'm waiting for Oceanic to drop in but I'm thinking along the line of a damaged HP valve.

Or...a miss alinged spring in the HP camber,a missing or miss alinged o-ring in the balancing camber.
Or...

O well lets wait for the master.

[RIOceanographer]

Well, supposedly the shop plans to call Oceanic on Monday to try and get to the bottom of this.

He did have one idea which didn't make much sense to me which was that he should have checked the intermediate pressure before he installed the environmental cap rather than after but I wouldn't think that should change anything.

[Doug Krause]

There's really not enough information here for me to shed any more light on this - let's see what we find out when your tech talks with our tech.

[RIOceanographer]

There's really not enough information here for me to shed any more light on this - let's see what we find out when your tech talks with our tech.

Doug,
Thanks. I understand its difficult to diagnose this stuff via the internet, but I figured it was worth throwing out there just in case there was something obvious he could check for.

As a side note, this shop is not an Oceanic dealer so that may be part of the issue here. The tech said he could handle it, and I am friends with he and shop owner so I chose to let them service it but I am betting this is probably the first FDX-10 he ever did. If the tech can't straighten it out when he calls Oceanic, I'll take it to the nearest authorized Oceanic dealer which is a little out of the way for me but hopefully they'll have a bit more experience dealing with this model.

[Doug Krause]

With that last bit of info, I would check your serial number here: Oceanic Worldwide - Scuba and Snorkeling Gear, Scuba and Snorkeling Equipment and Dive Gear (http://www.oceanicworldwide.com/safety_notices_dxseat_cpsc.html)

[PhilEllis]

You should phone Oceanic customer service and get this regulator to them for a look. Sounds like a "crown"/hard seat issue to me. Of course, as Doug said, determining an exact problem on the internet is difficult, but there are a few clues that might lead to ideas.

Phil Ellis
Discount Scuba Gear at DiveSports.com - Buy Scuba Diving Equipment & Snorkeling Equipment (http://www.divesports.com)

[RIOceanographer]

With that last bit of info, I would check your serial number here: Oceanic Worldwide - Scuba and Snorkeling Gear, Scuba and Snorkeling Equipment and Dive Gear (http://www.oceanicworldwide.com/safety_notices_dxseat_cpsc.html)

Thanks Doug, luckily this regulator is newer and outside of that serial number range.

I just spoke to the shop again and they think they got to to the bottom of it. He says when he reassembled the environmental cap he didn't follow the correct procedure.

As he explained it, apparently the first stage should be pressurized with the cap off, the IP should be calibrated, then the regulator should be depressurized before reinstalling the cap. Once the cap is on, the reg should be repressurized and the IP calibration rechecked.

It seems when he did it the first time, he reinstalled the cap with the unit still pressurized after he set the IP and he thinks that caused the unit to be slightly out of calibration. It is a bit surprising to me that this could make that big a difference, but he seems pretty sure of it.

I am getting the regulator back today, so I'll test dive it later in the week (but just in case he still is missing something, I'll be wearing my doubles with a fully redundant first/second stage that I know is in good working order).

[RIOceanographer]

You should phone Oceanic customer service and get this regulator to them for a look. Sounds like a "crown"/hard seat issue to me.

Thanks for the suggestion Phil. I am definitely having a hard time believing the explanation the shop is giving me. If this solution the shop came up with doesn't work I will probably do that.

[RIOceanographer]

Well, it seems the shop didn't do what they said they would and talk to Oceanic.

I talked to the Dive Safety Officer at work and he shared my skepticism about the shop's solution so we called Oceanic rather than having me dive test it.

The Oceanic tech's theory was basically what Phil described, nothing like what the shop proposed, and the tech asked me to send the regulator back to them to be fixed. Looks like the problem should be taken care of.

I'd like to give a big thanks to the Oceanic tech (Mark) we dealt with.

[adjuster-jd]

So if the shop is not an oceanic dealer, where are they getting the service parts? Do they have the right tools to work on the Oceanic regs? There are a couple specialize tools needed to get some parts in and out of the first stage, which can at least make the work a little more difficult.
Please post an update once you have it back from Oceanic so we can all know what the problem was - just in case this shows up for someone else.

[AndyDragon]

I think Oceanic should get some serious props for servicing a regulator which was serviced at a non-authorized dealer (which caused an issue). This sort of understanding and 'going the extra mile' is one of the main reasons I dive with Oceanic gear...

[RIOceanographer]

So if the shop is not an oceanic dealer, where are they getting the service parts?

I don't know where they got them, but they did use the real Oceanic service kits.

One of the things this shop does when they service a regulator is to return all the old parts along with the packaging of the service kits to prove they actually did the work and it was the Oceanic kit packaging they gave me when they returned it to me.

Hopefully, Oceanic will give me a post-mortem when they fix it so that I find out what the issue was.

[RIOceanographer]

I think Oceanic should get some serious props for servicing a regulator which was serviced at a non-authorized dealer (which caused an issue). This sort of understanding and 'going the extra mile' is one of the main reasons I dive with Oceanic gear...

Agreed, they've been very good, and I love all the Oceanic gear I've got.

[Doug Krause]

I don't know where they got them, but they did use the real Oceanic service kits.

Oceanic and others takes quite a bit of flack for our policies to only provide parts through authorized dealers - but here is a great example why. In addition to the affected serial number range of our FDX-10/CDX-5 recall - service kits were suspect as well, but hard to identify specifically as they are not, or were not at the time, tracked by serial number or manf. date/lot code. We contacted all of our dealers - worldwide - and replaced each and every one of them. We included in the recall - both the affected serial numbers, and any reg that was serviced in given time frame.

Now, I'm not saying that this is what is the root cause of your problem - we'll know more when we get the reg here. But... let's assume that the part was affected, or a procedural change was made... who would have communicated this to the non-authorized dealer?

[RIOceanographer]

Now, I'm not saying that this is what is the root cause of your problem - we'll know more when we get the reg here. But... let's assume that the part was affected, or a procedural change was made... who would have communicated this to the non-authorized dealer?

Well, even if that turns out not to be the cause, let's just say I've learned my lesson about getting it serviced at a non-authorized dealer. It would have been worth driving the extra 15 miles to take it to the Oceanic dealer. At the very least, the authorized dealer would have seen a few of them on his bench before.

I fell for the shop saying, "I can do it no problem, all regulators are basically the same on the inside." Others hopefully can learn from my mistake.

[awap]

Now, I'm not saying that this is what is the root cause of your problem - we'll know more when we get the reg here. But... let's assume that the part was affected, or a procedural change was made... who would have communicated this to the non-authorized dealer?

Perhaps a manufacturer who realized there is demand for their products outside of the "authorized" distribution channels and therefore makes a wider announcement when their quality control procedures fail resulting in defective products reaching consumers. Unless, perhaps, you just did not realize that any of your product was reaching consumers through other than authorized channels.:popcorn:

[RIOceanographer]

Just to follow up. I got the regulator back from Oceanic today. Unfortunately, they did not tell me what was actually wrong with it but it does seem to be fixed.

Thanks to Oceanic for their excellent service.

[300bar]

Perhaps a manufacturer who realized there is demand for their products outside of the "authorized" distribution channels and therefore makes a wider announcement when their quality control procedures fail resulting in defective products reaching consumers. Unless, perhaps, you just did not realize that any of your product was reaching consumers through other than authorized channels.:popcorn:


:shakehead:Guess you have no clue on how the world works.:eyebrow:
No manufacturar will call any NON dealer for a recall.:no:
Most and even more and more to day will NOT sell parts to the public/non dealers.
And why not.:confused:
Simple YOU will sue them if YOU ******** up.

BTW this recall was made public on the Oceanic website,so the [-]moron[/-]non dealer could have known,IF he took the trouble to inform himself.

[awap]

:shakehead:Guess you have no clue on how the world works.:eyebrow:
No manufacturar will call any NON dealer for a recall.:no:
Most and even more and more to day will NOT sell parts to the public/non dealers.
And why not.:confused:
Simple YOU will sue them if YOU ******** up.

BTW this recall was made public on the Oceanic website,so the [-]moron[/-]non dealer could have known,IF he took the trouble to inform himself.

Parts are sold every day to "unauthorized" customers. Just do a search on this board and read about all the legal actions generated by those sales.

I would not expect a mfgr to "call" other dealers. But I would expect other means of notification for such a non-trivial problem. Their own public website is a good start but notification on boards like this might be appropriate. Or does it take a CPSC action before appropriate notification of a potentially dangerous defect can be made with the clear intention of contacting all effected users.

[300bar]

Parts are sold every day to "unauthorized" customers. Just do ma search on this board and read about all the legal actions generated by those sales.

I would not expect a mfgr to "call" other dealers. But I would expect other means of notification for such a non-trivial problem. Their own public website is a good start but notification on boards like this might be appropriate. Or does it take a CPSC action before appropriate notification of a potentially dangerous defect can be made with the clear intention of contacting all effected users.

IIRC Oceanic DID annouche that recall on this board.But you'll have to do a :search:

BTW as I recall you where the one who was trying to get your hands on some Oceanic parts,a couple of weeks ago.And could not get them.IMO that's just the way it's gonna be all over the industry in the forseeable future. No more sales to the public.

[Doug Krause]

Check the sticky in this forum. I assure you that we take actions well above and beyond those required by our participation with the CPSC. My original point was that in such an event - our dealers know and have all of the tools that they need to handle the situation - immediately. Those that purchased parts through an non-authorized source... they may hear about it eventually one way or another. Or not.

[awap]

IIRC Oceanic DID annouche that recall on this board.But you'll have to do a :search:

BTW as I recall you where the one who was trying to get your hands on some Oceanic parts,a couple of weeks ago.And could not get them.IMO that's just the way it's gonna be all over the industry in the forseeable future. No more sales to the public.

No, I dive Scubapro regs. Their parts seem to be more readily available, probably just because they are so much larger an operation. It sure is not that they offer any better customer (diver) service than Oceanic. But I do try to keep an eye on parts availability from many manufacturers and did comment and do a little follow-up when postings on TDS and this board seemed to indicate reduced availability of Oceanic parts. I suspect that reduction in parts availability was precipitated by the defective parts that apparently found their way into new regulators and service kits. I only hope it is a temporary change.

[PhilEllis]

No, I dive Scubapro regs. Their parts seem to be more readily available, probably just because they are so much larger an operation. It sure is not that they offer any better customer (diver) service than Oceanic. But I do try to keep an eye on parts availability from many manufacturers and did comment and do a little follow-up when postings on TDS and this board seemed to indicate reduced availability of Oceanic parts. I suspect that reduction in parts availability was precipitated by the defective parts that apparently found their way into new regulators and service kits. I only hope it is a temporary change.

To be honest, I know of no shortage of Oceanic parts. Even in the midst of a recent recall, Oceanic had 100% delivery of repair kits and other parts, subject to individual parts that might have been temporarily on back-order.

The posts you make reference to reflect an individual or individuals who claim to have lost access to an Oceanic parts supply. It appeared to simply be a case of a local dealer who had previously sold parts now being unwilling to continue the practice. Oceanic parts are available from various places. It simply requires a little bit of searching to obtain them.

While my status as a dealer may make me slightly biased toward them, I would have to say that I have dealt with no company that has a more solid customer service program. As a dealer, I have never made a customer service request that they didn't honor.....even though many requests were beyond their STATED terms. Now, as to the issue of selling parts directly to consumers, I expect that is a policy they will not change.

Phil Ellis
www.divesports.com

[awap]

I'm not talking about any shortage coming into the distribution networks. But down at the customer/diver end, a shortage occurred when Scubatoys cut off supplies to its customers. Initially, I was not sure what the problem was as Scubatoys had also cut off supplies of Zeagle parts, ostensibly due to liability issues, so I was a bit concerned that Scubatoys was backing out of supplying service parts for all regulators they sell. Then they withdrew from selling Oceanic parts, again, the liability problem. Turned out the Zeagle hiccup was apparently a misunderstanding that has been corrected. And I'm surmising that the Oceanic withdrawal is due to the defective seats problem and hopefully will also be temporary.

My greatest disappoint with scuba is the problems and maneuvers required to obtain service parts for regulators. I agree fully, that with a bit of effort, divers can eventually find sources for the parts they seek. But it can be a very frustrating nut roll. So when a source is terminated, I like to find out what is going on and bring it to the attention of other concerned divers.

I also agree that Oceanic has established a reputation for great service. But I am quite sure that the loss of the sale of Oceanic parts from Scubatoys was not a unilateral Scubatoys action. When I asked, Scubatoy's answer was a brief statement of "liability" and Oceanic did not answer.

I do not accept any manufacturer's written or "wink, nod" policy (which ever it might be) that parts can not be sold to divers. I don't think I ever will. I believe that policy will change when it causes them enough problem and loss.


To be honest, I know of no shortage of Oceanic parts. Even in the midst of a recent recall, Oceanic had 100% delivery of repair kits and other parts, subject to individual parts that might have been temporarily on back-order.

The posts you make reference to reflect an individual or individuals who claim to have lost access to an Oceanic parts supply. It appeared to simply be a case of a local dealer who had previously sold parts now being unwilling to continue the practice. Oceanic parts are available from various places. It simply requires a little bit of searching to obtain them.

While my status as a dealer may make me slightly biased toward them, I would have to say that I have dealt with no company that has a more solid customer service program. As a dealer, I have never made a customer service request that they didn't honor.....even though many requests were beyond their STATED terms. Now, as to the issue of selling parts directly to consumers, I expect that is a policy they will not change.

Phil Ellis
Discount Scuba Gear at DiveSports.com - Buy Scuba Diving Equipment & Snorkeling Equipment (http://www.divesports.com)

[PhilEllis]

I'm not talking about any shortage coming into the distribution networks. But down at the customer/diver end, a shortage occurred when Scubatoys cut off supplies to its customers. Initially, I was not sure what the problem was as Scubatoys had also cut off supplies of Zeagle parts, ostensibly due to liability issues, so I was a bit concerned that Scubatoys was backing out of supplying service parts for all regulators they sell. Then they withdrew from selling Oceanic parts, again, the liability problem. Turned out the Zeagle hiccup was apparently a misunderstanding that has been corrected. And I'm surmising that the Oceanic withdrawal is due to the defective seats problem and hopefully will also be temporary.

My greatest disappoint with scuba is the problems and maneuvers required to obtain service parts for regulators. I agree fully, that with a bit of effort, divers can eventually find sources for the parts they seek. But it can be a very frustrating nut roll. So when a source is terminated, I like to find out what is going on and bring it to the attention of other concerned divers.

I also agree that Oceanic has established a reputation for great service. But I am quite sure that the loss of the sale of Oceanic parts from Scubatoys was not a unilateral Scubatoys action. When I asked, Scubatoy's answer was a brief statement of "liability" and Oceanic did not answer.

I do not accept any manufacturer's written or "wink, nod" policy (which ever it might be) that parts can not be sold to divers. I don't think I ever will. I believe that policy will change when it causes them enough problem and loss.

The fact that a single dealer decides to change their policy about the sale of parts, of any brand, does not represent any evidence that there has been a change in any supplier policy. Simply put, it only represents a decision by that single supplier. In fact, I suspect that most of the scuba manufacturers don't even have an established policy on the issue. There are other dealers...in fact, a lot of them for every brand. They each have their own policy on the sale of repair parts; and them implement those policies for their own reasons.

Now, I have had customers call me about parts for various regulator brands that I don't stock and from manufacturers with which I do no business. In a couple of cases, they lamented about how difficult it is to obtain parts. I don't understand this. Even prior to opening my own scuba store, before the internet was full of chat boards like this one, I was able to locate regulator repair parts; for a number of brands. Now, it took a LITTLE bit of searching, but they were around.

Added Note: I expect it is less the lack of parts as it is the price of those parts that anger many people. There is thread after thread on various boards asking about Apeks parts. We receive many, many desperate calls looking for them. Fewer actually pull the trigger and buy them. I am assuming that the price is the issue.

Phil Ellis
www.divesports.com

[PhilEllis]

Sorry for my hijack in the previous post in the Oceanic forum. If we want to discuss the general subject of availability of parts further, maybe we should take it to a different thread.

Phil Ellis
www.divesports.com