Zero to hero Divemaster program in 30 days - thoughts?

[Teamcasa]

A thread in the Marketplace
Zero to hero Divemaster program in 30 days (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/travel-group-trips-cruises-dive-trips/266829-zero-hero-divemaster-program-30-days.html)
has stirred some intersting comments not appropriate for the Marketplace so I'd like to discuss the idea here.

Is this sort of fast tracking safe? Unsafe? Thoughts?

[Thalassamania]

Here is the basis for the discusssion:


We have created a special training program for those divers that know they want to be a dive pro. We have a no dives to divemaster program, it includes 60 dives on our CG inspected dive vessel, all air fills, tanks, weights, and an Divemaster internship. Proagram price includes all dives open water thru DM Cert and all Certs from open water, advanced, nitrox, rescue, EFR, and Divemaster
We are located in San Deigo California. Please see the following link.
International Fire Rescue Academy - Home (http://www.firerescueacademy.com/)
full price is 2,4950. US dollars. Housing is avialable.
Once you have your DM Cert you can go directly to IDC.


Hey everyone let me talk, that is usually best anyway. Their are alot of people wanting to change jobs right now, and if your are attacking the market value, PADI only requires 60 dives In the program you dive Friday Night, Saturday all day, Sunday all day. We are 180 degrees from what you are saying. We are going the extra mile to make a great DM. We are looking at your training from day one, that you are going to be pro and we are expecting the best from the candidate. Since you are throwing stones I would be scared of myself if the only knowledge I had of safety was from the Diving Community. The 30 day program is everyday all day. 0700 until 2100 at night. It is by design a product of dealing with DM(s) who only know how to serve food and know nothing about dive medicine or Emergency Response. We are going to teach the real deal, not just what is read in pretty book. Students have the option to do time in ER at the hospital, Ride with the Beach Lifeguards, and local EMS. You cannot tell me that someone with no practical real world experience has he ability to manage a rescue and or medical emergency. That is why every Public Safety Agency has supervisors.

We are offering training from Public Safety PROS, who are also PADI pros, no standards are being breached. A DM is a Professional not a layman, yet he is using layman skills, CPR and AED are for the layman not the pro. Most remote international resorts do not have staff trained to the level of the US, and we seek to change that. We also know that only diving in one area does not make you good diver, so we offer diving on wrecks, in kelp, cold water, Deep Dives, good vis, bad vis, diving on real dive boat seeing what is presented everyday to a DM. Divers from the mid west with 7 dives that want to go to 90 feet with their spouse because they don't feel the need for advanced training. It is real world training. All day everyday. So when you leave. you are not learning at the expense of a novice diver, you already know how step in and be a PRO and supervise.
So.............stop bagging on something you know nothing about, the PADI IDC does not teach any more skills that you learned in DM. So.................If your knowledge is not strong as a DM it wont be strong as PADI OWSI. We are going to produce PROS who can swim, handle a small boat, understand nitrox and oxygen toxicity, Dive Medicine, and more. If it was about our bank account then we would not offer the program for 2,500 bucks. The instructors are working Paramedics, Homeland Security divers, as well as PADI PROS. We will take as much time as needed with a Student to get them to pro level. I guarantee it, we will make you a pro.


PADI Allows three training dives in a day. You can dive outside training. The DM Course only requires 50 hours of instruction. If a student is not able to log the dives for whatever reason then they can make it up. We are not charging by the dive we will spend as much time with a student that a student needs to pass. And we dive Nitrox not air the student gets a Nitrox cert right after open water. If anyone has any issues you are welcome to audit the class for free. If a student is in the water at 0600 and classroom is not over until 2100 it is possible.

The program is for students who are serious about diving. Look at the dive tables. We are not outside PADI standards. If student is not up to diving then we can go an extra weekend, no problem, no charge. A Candidate needs to have gotten the materials and studied them before they get in program, Just like the IDC, you should have your knowledge reviews done before you get to class. We encourage getting the bookwork done thru the PADI website and get all the knowledge reviews done before your session starts. But to call the program a JOKE with no knowledge of what is being done is very foolish.


Look folks, the purpose of the program is to go the extra mile, and start someone diving from day one with developing their skills to the highest level. That means starting in open water we leave nothing to chance, every skill is perfected. Someone commented on buoyancy, that should have been learned in the advanced course, not in DM. For those of you who are instructors, the brainless DM(s) are a product of your teaching, not PADI. The PADI DM is laid out very specific, when a student has to correct the instructor, the instructor needs to hit the books. We have had Navy Scuba Divers who know more than the instructor, the information is in the PADI material a person just needs to study it and restudy it like anything else. The program is not a Vacation. It is about study and Diving, nothing else. No time for the PUB. Anyone who says their are brainless DM(s) working at the resorts need's to look at the Instructors who trained them. By the standard it is a mentor relationship, and that is what we are doing, every bit of information we can give a student we will offer it.

I'm frankly taken with the idea of a "homeland security diver" credential.

[SteveAD]

20 years ago I progressed from open water to instructor in 1 year. I didn't have that as a goal, I simply kept doing the next class each time it was offered. When I suddenly found myself as the instuctor fielding a bunch of "have you ever..." questions, I realized that while I had the knowledge and the credentials, I didn't have the experience to be a good instructor. I put teaching on hold and concentrated on diving for a couple of years. This was NOT a zero to hero, this took a full year. trying to take a non diver even to the DM level in 6 weeks is a guarunteed recipe for an overconfident, underqualified DM. I would never even consider hiring a product of a zero to hero program. It may not rise to the level of unsafe, but it will not produce a high quality dive professional.

[Blackwood]

I'm frankly taken with the idea of a "homeland security diver" credential.

Is that someone who will look at my driver's license with a spiffy flashlight before scribbling on my boat boarding pass and letting me through?

[Teamcasa]

Steve, Given your response below, let me ask a hypothetical question.

If a diver that had 1000's of dives, in many different conditions but never really thought about being an instructor found himself out of work. He signed up for the course and passed with flying colors, would you feel the same way?



20 years ago I progressed from open water to instructor in 1 year. I didn't have that as a goal, I simply kept doing the next class each time it was offered. When I suddenly found myself as the instuctor fielding a bunch of "have you ever..." questions, I realized that while I had the knowledge and the credentials, I didn't have the experience to be a good instructor. I put teaching on hold and concentrated on diving for a couple of years. This was NOT a zero to hero, this took a full year. trying to take a non diver even to the DM level in 6 weeks is a guarunteed recipe for an overconfident, underqualified DM. I would never even consider hiring a product of a zero to hero program. It may not rise to the level of unsafe, but it will not produce a high quality dive professional.

[Blackwood]

Steve, Given your response below, let me ask a hypothetical question.

If a diver that had 1000's of dives, in many different conditions but never really thought about being an instructor found himself out of work. He signed up for the course and passed with flying colors, would you feel the same way?

I don't believe a diver with 1000s of dives applies to his response below (well, above I guess :P). It specifically referred to "zero to hero."

[Web Monkey]

A thread in the Marketplace
Zero to hero Divemaster program in 30 days (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/travel-group-trips-cruises-dive-trips/266829-zero-hero-divemaster-program-30-days.html)
has stirred some intersting comments not appropriate for the Marketplace so I'd like to discuss the idea here.

Is this sort of fast tracking safe? Unsafe? Thoughts?

The ways this could go horribly wrong are nearly infinite.

30 days of diving is hardly enough to be a safe, competent diver with a buddy. It's absolutely off-the-wall-stupid to promote a 30 day diver as a "Divemaster" with group management and safety responsibilities, regardless of whether or not it's permissible within PADI's rules.

Terry

[Teamcasa]

I don't believe a diver with 1000s of dives applies to his response below (well, above I guess :P). It specifically referred to "zero to hero."


The ways this could go horribly wrong are nearly infinite.

30 days of diving is hardly enough to be a safe, competent diver with a buddy. It's absolutely off-the-wall-stupid to promote a 30 day diver as a "Divemaster" with group management and safety responsibilities, regardless of whether or not it's permissible within PADI's rules.

Terry


Sure, but don't forget that they actually have to pass the course to become a DM, right? A zero may take the course but there is also zero guarantee that they make it through.

Assuming - mind you assuming the instructors are not like a few of my old Boy Scout merit badge counselors and more like the instructors I had when I first started diving, they may indeed produce some good DM's.

[gkndivebum]

Curious question. I didn't become a divemaster until I had over 500 dives, and didn't become an instructor until over 1000. An intensive training program such as this is an interesting idea, but I do hesitate a bit because of the notion that 60 +/- dives doesn't give you much a base of experience to draw upon.

[muddiver]

Zero to Diver in less than a month was also batted around years ago. Now look at all the "certified in a weekend" programs availabe. Good luck fighting the marketing and sales mentality.

[SteveAD]

Steve, Given your response below, let me ask a hypothetical question.

If a diver that had 1000's of dives, in many different conditions but never really thought about being an instructor found himself out of work. He signed up for the course and passed with flying colors, would you feel the same way?


I don't believe a diver with 1000s of dives applies to his response below (well, above I guess :P). It specifically referred to "zero to hero."

Blackwood pretty much answered for me, that someone entering this program with 1000+ dives is not a zero. and might be one of the few good graduates to come out of such a program despite the program itself. However, as a graduate of a school known for zero to hero programs, he wouldn't even get an interview with me.

[muddiver]

Hummm...

How come the little blue letters give you a dead web page when you click on them?

[rjack321]

As someone with about 700 dives over 14years from 38f to 80f, full cave, normoxic trimix, and a USCG skipper, I would resent a zero-to-hero being in charge of any of my substantive dives. If its a 40ft reef bimble, I could care less. Beyond that, I am vastly more qualified to judge the plan/boat/group/buddy/site etc. And I imagine alot of even vacation divers are more qualified than the zero-to-hero as well.

A "leader" with authority but no credibility is worse than worthless. Credibility does not come from cards.

[Web Monkey]

Hummm...

How come the little blue letters give you a dead web page when you click on them?

Works fine here.

Terry

[jpsexton]

This is hardly a unique program. You can find this sort of thing just about anywhere.

Become a diver in a weekend is the norm pretty much and I've seen more than a few become instructor in one season and most instructors do it in two seasons max.

He's just following the standards that have been set...

[Web Monkey]

As someone with about 700 dives over 14years from 38f to 80f, full cave, normoxic trimix, and a USCG skipper, I would resent a zero-to-hero being in charge of any of my substantive dives. If its a 40ft reef bimble, I could care less. Beyond that, I am vastly more qualified to judge the plan/boat/group/buddy/site etc. And I imagine alot of even vacation divers are more qualified than the zero-to-hero as well.

A "leader" with authority but no credibility is worse than worthless. Credibility does not come from cards.

The problem is that there isn't any way to tell without asking to see a C-Card. Your DM could have been diving since dirt was invented or since this morning (or not actually be a DM at all)

Terry

[Teamcasa]

The problem is that there isn't any way to tell without asking to see a C-Card. Your DM could have been diving since dirt was invented or since this morning (or not actually be a DM at all)

Terry

Maybe. But most of the time I can tell after watching someone gear up, splash and dive for a few minutes if they are any good at.

[rjack321]

The problem is that there isn't any way to tell without asking to see a C-Card. Your DM could have been diving since dirt was invented or since this morning (or not actually be a DM at all)

Terry

I disagree. I am pretty confident that most of us regulars here would sniff out a zero-to-hero DM (or instructor) pretty quick. Especially if the conditions/boat/dive/plan/group was at all challenging.

If circumstances are benign and easy, then the zero-to-hero might not be so obvious. Which of course begs the question of whether they are even necessary for the rankest of beginners needing a "guide".

[SteveAD]

The problem is that there isn't any way to tell without asking to see a C-Card. Your DM could have been diving since dirt was invented or since this morning (or not actually be a DM at all)

Terry

That line of defense is drawn by the employer, and I believe is the trigger for divemedics rant about hiring practices. A reputable boat or dive center will see an unqualified applicant and not hire them. An incompetant DM or instructor reflects very poorly on the operation as a whole. I have 1 overriding criterion for hiring instructors: taken as a whole, would I [-]allow[/-] want this individual to teach my 14 year old daughter? If I have any reservations on that count the interview is over. Thanks for playing, bye bye

[elan]

There is nothing wrong with these zero-to-hero programs. They emerge as a result of market demand. This principle exists in all educational programs diving being no exception. Like anywhere else the hero with no credibility ideally has to have hard time getting one (credibility). The only thing is that the level of such a diver should be appropriate for corresponding level of teaching. Sometimes it's not worth spending time of a well trained tech teacher for teaching basics in the OW class if he has better business to do. His time would be just spent right.

The only thing is that the experience information , not just the card, of the DM should be available to the others

[Teamcasa]

That line of defense is drawn by the employer,

Exacty.
Does it really matter what course they took? If an dive operation hired a DM, AND they performed poorly, chances are they are out looking for work. OTOH, if they turn out to be a very good DM, chances are they are pretty bright and learn quickly. In addition, once hired, they are making several dives a day, learning all the time and after a year, they might be one of the top DM's around. Who knows?

I just hate dismissing things out of hand.

[rjack321]

There is nothing wrong with these zero-to-hero programs.

The 'school' offering this is downright preying on people who think they could actually be employable after completing one of these (expensive!) programs. Anyone who has been diving for even a month knows that you don't make living wages as a DM. If you are just getting out of high school or college and only need to eat, well ok. If you are considering a career change in a poor economy - don't.


They emerge as a result of market demand.

There is no demand for zero-to-hero DMs except by maybe the most unscrupulous operators who are trying to get another insured "pro" aboard to share liability.

[elan]

The 'school' offering this is downright preying on people who think they could actually be employable after completing one of these (expensive!) programs. Anyone who has been diving for even a month knows that you don't make living wages as a DM. If you are just getting out of high school or college and only need to eat, well ok. If you are considering a career change in a poor economy - don't.



There is no demand for zero-to-hero DMs except by maybe the most unscrupulous operators who are trying to get another insured "pro" aboard to share liability.

rjack321 if there is no demand it will just die by itself as those guys will have corresponding reputation :) Those who hire them will eventually suffer if the DM does not do things satisfactory.

[SteveAD]

rjack321 if there is no demand it will just die by itself as those guys will have corresponding reputation :) Those who hire them will eventually suffer if the DM does not do things satisfactory.

Sadly, this is not necessarily true. There is always enough new blood coming into diving who want to live the lifestyle, but don't yet know the industry to keep zero to hero schools in business. There have always been more wannabe instructors than there are "gainfully employed" instructor jobs, yet more people continue to pursue instructor training.

[muddiver]

Works fine here.

Terry

I'll have to try from home. I get a "Gateway Timeout" error on the office system. :depressed:

[elan]

Sadly, this is not necessarily true. There is always enough new blood coming into diving who want to live the lifestyle, but don't yet know the industry to keep zero to hero schools in business. There have always been more wannabe instructors than there are "gainfully employed" instructor jobs, yet more people continue to pursue instructor training.

Steve this is a good point and it's true for other industries as well. There will always be companies that make use of the newbies who do not know the field well. But oh well this is life. The thing that works in this cases is developing adequate certification system which involves as less subjective judging as possible.

[muddiver]

The 'school' offering this is downright preying on people who think they could actually be employable after completing one of these (expensive!) programs. Anyone who has been diving for even a month knows that you don't make living wages as a DM. If you are just getting out of high school or college and only need to eat, well ok. If you are considering a career change in a poor economy - don't.

There is no demand for zero-to-hero DMs except by maybe the most unscrupulous operators who are trying to get another insured "pro" aboard to share liability.

There is the same thing going on in the Commercial Diving industry. There are around 8 to 10 schools cranking out commercial divers every three to six months around the U.S. There were ten in my class so if that is an average your looking at around 400 entry level workers looking for a job per year in a really small industry.

It's the lure of the romantic notion that diving (commercial or as an instructor) is such an adventurous life that pays really well. It sells like hot cakes, buyer beware.:no:

Oh, almost forgot, somewhere in all of the posts on one of the two threads, someone said $45,000? Geeze, getting a commercial diver certification is way cheaper at $15,000. And you might even find a good $12 an hour job with that piece of paper. :D

[SteveAD]

In a parallell thread someone who advertises a zero to hero program using that phrase has a rant about unfair hiring processes, and potential employers taking advantage of applicants (I still can't figure out how) I submit that the real predators are the individuals running these z t h programs, creating unhirable "professionals".

[Teamcasa]

The 'school' offering this is downright preying on people who think they could actually be employable after completing one of these (expensive!) programs. Anyone who has been diving for even a month knows that you don't make living wages as a DM. If you are just getting out of high school or college and only need to eat, well ok. If you are considering a career change in a poor economy - don't.

You seem to be posting on the assumption that 100% of the graduates will be no good and fail. I don't think for a second that would be the case.



There is the same thing going on in the Commercial Diving industry. There are around 8 to 10 schools cranking out commercial divers every three to six months around the U.S. There were ten in my class so if that is an average your looking at around 400 entry level workers looking for a job per year in a really small industry.

It's the lure of the romantic notion that diving (commercial or as an instructor) is such an adventurous life that pays really well. It sells like hot cakes, buyer beware.:no:

Oh, almost forgot, somewhere in all of the posts on one of the two threads, someone said $45,000? Geeze, getting a commercial diver certification is way cheaper at $15,000. And you might even find a good $12 an hour job with that piece of paper. :D

Their course is $2,500. not 45k.

[rjack321]

You seem to be posting on the assumption that 100% of the graduates will be no good and fail. I don't think for a second that would be the case.

Well I do think everyone coming out of the program will be a decent diver. Some maybe more than decent, some less than average.

But I don't think you can be a good DM or instructor if you've only dove in one place and off one or two different boats. The good professionals are able to pull from a well of both diving and "human resource" experience. These graduates definitely won't have the former and are unlikely to develop the latter in 6 weeks - so by (my) definition they won't be good professionals.

I thought it was 25k

[SteveAD]

Their course is $2,500. not 45k.

$2500 or $25 K? His post can be read either way "$2,4950 (sic)" is that a misplaces comma or an extra zero?

[muddiver]

Oh, well someone called Deputy Dan got it wrong.

As for SteveAD's post above, I was reading that other thread by divemedic1316 and I am really courious as to how he can post such contridictory threads.

[Teamcasa]

Well I do think everyone coming out of the program will be a decent diver. Some maybe more than decent, some less than average.

But I don't think you can be a good DM or instructor if you've only dove in one place and off one or two different boats. The good professionals are able to pull from a well of both diving and "human resource" experience. These graduates definitely won't have the former and are unlikely to develop the latter in 6 weeks - so by (my) definition they won't be good professionals.

I thought it was 25k

I would like to think that a dive operation looking to hire a newly minted DM (from that school or otherwise) would recognize that they are indeed an apprentice DM and treat them accordingly. They likely would mentor them until they were convinced of their skills and demonstrated the ability to progress to the next step.

Failure to that would be a dive operation failure, not a failure of the school or student.

[edm81363]

As a newly certified Divemaster, I simply can't imagine a non-diver becoming a DM this quickly.

During my DM class, I assisted with FIVE OW class cycles, from classroom 1 to OW 4. We worked Mon and Wed from 6pm to 11:30pm, usually a three hour class on Thursday and then diving from 7a to 2p on Saturday. My course took 6 MONTHS to complete. I've been on lots of challenging dives, especially ones with new students.

I can't see how a graduate of this class can provide a comparable level of service and safety.

[Teamcasa]

$2500 or $25 K? His post can be read either way "$2,4950 (sic)" is that a misplaces comma or an extra zero?

The typo was addressed here:


... If it was about our bank account then we would not offer the program for 2,500 bucks. The instructors are working Paramedics, Homeland Security divers, as well as PADI PROS. We will take as much time as needed with a Student to get them to pro level. I guarantee it, we will make you a pro.

[SteveAD]

I would like to think that a dive operation looking to hire a newly minted DM (from that school or otherwise) would recognize that they are indeed an apprentice DM and treat them accordingly. They likely would mentor them until they were convinced of their skills and demonstrated the ability to progress to the next step.

Failure to that would be a dive operation failure, not a failure of the school or student.

I will now admit to just a bit of disengenuousness. I don't hire instructors from outside my own operation at all. I identify candidates at the ow, aow, rescue level and recruit them into my DM program and the cream of that group get recruited into an IDC. While they are in training, they are, indeed, apprentices, but I won't graduate a DM unless I feel he is ready to enroll in an IDC. My DM program (from rescue diver) averages 8 months, the fastest I have ever had a student complete it was 2 months .

[Web Monkey]

I disagree. I am pretty confident that most of us regulars here would sniff out a zero-to-hero DM (or instructor) pretty quick. Especially if the conditions/boat/dive/plan/group was at all challenging.

If circumstances are benign and easy, then the zero-to-hero might not be so obvious. Which of course begs the question of whether they are even necessary for the rankest of beginners needing a "guide".

I'd prefer no DM at all and beleive that everybody would be safer without one because common sense would take over once they realize that "nobody is keeping me safe". However the entire concept that anybody can keep anybody else "safe" is a different topic.

On a small boat, it's easy. On the "vacation diver" cattle boats, the DM doesn't do much that you could "rate" them on. Also until everybody gets in the water with the DM, it's difficult to tell who "your" DM is anyway.

Terry

[muddiver]

I case anyone is interested: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/whine-cheeze/282047-keep-your-job.html

[boulderjohn]

I have never met anyone who graduated from a program like this, so I cannot speak from personal experience. However, I was talking about this recently with our course director, and he has had some experience with a similar programs's graduates. He said they (he was talking instructors) were surprisingly skilled. He was one who felt initially he would write anyone off from such a program, but the ones he saw were, in his opinion, superior to many of the people he knew who went a more conventional route.

I find it hard to believe myself, but like TeamCasa, I am reluctant to dismiss something out of hand. I can see arguments on both sides.

I think the advantage a progam has over a more conventional routes is that every single dive you do is observed by a professional and critiqued.

I think of my own skiing and diving experiences. In skiing in particular, I had some friends show me the ropes early on, and I spent many years practicing my skills, learning by observing others, before I took my first lesson. It was in that lesson that I learned I was doing just about everything wrong. Those people I was imitating were doing things wrong, and I was learning everything from them, ingraining their poor techniques into my own style. I took more lessons over the following years, and there are some bad habits I developed early in my life that I was flat never able to overcome. If I had had intense instruction over a period of time at the beginning of my career, I would have been a much better skier much earlier, and I would not have struggled to overcome all I was doing wrong.

My experiences were similar in diving. I had a pretty decent amount of experience before I decided to start going pro, and I thought I was pretty darn good, but I soon figured out that I had a lot to learn. It was very humbling. What if I had had a professional watching my every move for 60 of my early experience dives? I might have been a lot better than I was when I was ready to start.

So I'm on the fence with this. I am not going to dismiss things out of hand. I would like to see some results before I judge. As others have said, if someone comes out of such a program and does not have the skills you want, then don't hire. If the skills are there, though, would you turn that person away on general principles?

[SteveAD]

A truely effective dive prfessional must have both training and experience. Regardless of how good the training may be in a z t h program, they can not provide experience.

[boulderjohn]

I will now admit to just a bit of disengenuousness. I don't hire instructors from outside my own operation at all. I identify candidates at the ow, aow, rescue level and recruit them into my DM program and the cream of that group get recruited into an IDC. While they are in training, they are, indeed, apprentices, but I won't graduate a DM unless I feel he is ready to enroll in an IDC. My DM program (from rescue diver) averages 8 months, the fastest I have ever had a student complete it was 2 months .

A laudable process, and one I would strive to adopt myself were I in your position. With the LDS with which I work, that is how almost all of us got where we are. There are, however, some people who came from the outside. Those people needed to be judged by their merits before being taken on the staff. There are only a couple, and I only know smatterings of how they got where they are. I can only judge them on what they can do now.

[Teamcasa]

... I had a pretty decent amount of experience before I decided to start going pro, and I thought I was pretty darn good, but I soon figured out that I had a lot to learn. It was very humbling. What if I had had a professional watching my every move for 60 of my early experience dives? I might have been a lot better than I was when I was ready to start.

So I'm on the fence with this. I am not going to dismiss things out of hand. I would like to see some results before I judge. As others have said, if someone comes out of such a program and does not have the skills you want, then don't hire. If the skills are there, though, would you turn that person away on general principles?

True enough!
As we all progress through our diving experience and the new skills we obtained, we all look back with some degree of amazement.

At 10 dives we knew little and admitted it.
At 50 dives we knew a lot, but by the grace of God, we somehow survived it.
At 100 dives we were excited to learn more.
At 200 dives we realized just how little we understood all of the complexities.
At 500 plus dives, if we were still diving, we are still excited to learn more.

For those with over 1000 dives, good for you and I hope to be in that club shortly.;)

[mikemill]

I will now admit to just a bit of disengenuousness. I don't hire instructors from outside my own operation at all. I identify candidates at the ow, aow, rescue level and recruit them into my DM program and the cream of that group get recruited into an IDC. While they are in training, they are, indeed, apprentices, but I won't graduate a DM unless I feel he is ready to enroll in an IDC. My DM program (from rescue diver) averages 8 months, the fastest I have ever had a student complete it was 2 months .

So in your program your dms/instructors have only learned from your own people? That's not good either. One should strive to learn from as many different people and groups as possible. If you stay with only one group then you only learn their ways which may not be the best way.

[SteveAD]

A laudable process, and one I would strive to adopt myself were I in your position. With the LDS with which I work, that is how almost all of us got where we are. There are, however, some people who came from the outside. Those people needed to be judged by their merits before being taken on the staff. There are only a couple, and I only know smatterings of how they got where they are. I can only judge them on what they can do now.

I have in the past 10 years hired a few "outside" instructors. Every single one of them was fired after 1 class for gross incompetence, maybe I've just been unlucky.

[muddiver]

No, all the good instructor moved to a warmer climate. :D

[nilsdiver]

I agree that 30 days is not enough time to make a diver. But since when do DMs need to dive??? A DM on a boat is surface support. A entirely different set of skills then diving.

What might a DM on a boat need to do well:

Fill tanks
Track divers in and out of the water
Brief divers on the site / conditions
Assist divers
Cook / prep food
Surface assistance
Emergency Management / CPR / First AID / O2 / etc.


30 days X 8 hours a day is 240 hours of training. It is possible a DM class run by professional EMT's has better chance of producing a DM capable of handing an emergency then a standard DM class. I'm NOT saying I like the zero to hero idea. But I like the idea of DM training that really covers emergency management.

The only time I see dive masters diving is during their breaks generally.

[muddiver]

Sorry, but I think that you are using the typical California dive boat process to justify your asumptions. In Hawaii (and I think Mexico) it is standard operating procedure for every dive to be guided by a Divemaster or Instructor. I can't speak for the Cariben (sp?) operations. California is a bit unique that we do not have mandated guided dives (the mandate is by an association of boat owners usually).

[Thalassamania]

Zero to Diver in less than a month was also batted around years ago. Now look at all the "certified in a weekend" programs availabe. Good luck fighting the marketing and sales mentality.What a system ... first we make sure that the course is too short to create a competent diver then we make sure that the instructor is not competent either!

I disagree. I am pretty confident that most of us regulars here would sniff out a zero-to-hero DM (or instructor) pretty quick. Especially if the conditions/boat/dive/plan/group was at all challenging.

If circumstances are benign and easy, then the zero-to-hero might not be so obvious. Which of course begs the question of whether they are even necessary for the rankest of beginners needing a "guide".
I agree.

rjack321 if there is no demand it will just die by itself as those guys will have corresponding reputation :) Those who hire them will eventually suffer if the DM does not do things satisfactory.
It appears to have already died.

[Clammy]

I've been toying with the idea of continuing on to DM myself even though I'm only just shy of 100 dives with less than 2 years and no diving experience outside of California (yet.) You know... the more gear, trips, or training question! I wouldn't mind going through this program as someone who is well probably not quite a zero but compared to many of you, pretty close to it.

However, I would want to go through it now for the training and catch up with the experience later. As someone already mentioned, better to practice knowing how to do it right than develop (any more) bad habits. I would simply abdicate the actual DM responsibilities until I had the experience or just stick with helping out with instructors present, much like the "apprenticeships" that SteveAD was talking about.

I have contemplated going all the way through the instructor programs for the same reason, my own training to make ME a better diver. At first I had no intention of instructing if I did become an instructor. I wouldn't want someone with say 100 dives in 4 locations in 1 year to train me (well I say that because I know better now than when I was someone trying to figure out how to start scuba diving) so why would I presume to think that I should do the same with only a bit more experience. It IS tempting though and I admit to thinking about it.

[halemanō]

This conversation is pretty silly; the candidates who will succeed in this program (many will) knows they bring what it takes, even if they don't have scuba dives. Nearly all who sign up for programs like this have more than enough faith in their abilities to ignore the nay-sayers.

If the student has what it takes and applies themselves, they can easily find work and move forwards. Just like the OW cert is only a learners permit, so also is even a Masters in Teaching; when you really go do it without your instructor the first time it is your first time.

[bigken462]

Zero to Hero = Certification to Kill. Nuff said.

Ken

[roturner]

A thread in the Marketplace
Zero to hero Divemaster program in 30 days (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/travel-group-trips-cruises-dive-trips/266829-zero-hero-divemaster-program-30-days.html)
has stirred some intersting comments not appropriate for the Marketplace so I'd like to discuss the idea here.

Is this sort of fast tracking safe? Unsafe? Thoughts?

Actually, it's even worse. The original post if I understand it correctly is advertising for 12 days of instruction (3 long days a week for a month).

There is a lot to be said for work-shop type courses that cause people to focus all of their energy on one thing for a short time. These can be interesting, rewarding experiences and you can learn a lot more in a short time than you think if you're focused.

That said, I would have several reservations:

- the instructor giving the course would have to be highly talented for this to have any chance of creating divers and not certified train wrecks.

- the student would have to have a natural aptitude for diving. Anyone who trains divers knows that natural talent varies a LOT. If you started out with divers who were highly talented to start with then you would have a chance.

- the student would have to have learned leadership ability going in. Taking a nervous timid introverted student into a course like this will obviously lead to a much different result than taking someone in with high self-esteem, excellent communicative ability and years of experience as a high-school teacher.... to pick a random example.

- the course would give the student the knowledge but not the experience. In my opinion you need both if you are going to train or be responsible for new divers. I don't see how this course will overcome that problem. I don't think a "graduate" from a programme like this would be employable. He/she may, however, given the right conditions and the right mix of personalities between instructor and student, be ready to enter an internship.

- obviously, the failure rate in a course like this, if the instructor has any ethical bones in his body, would have to be astronomical. In my experience I would say 1 student in 500 could enter a course like this and finish it without being a danger to him/her-self and the divers under his/her care. And *that* is assuming both the instructor and the student had the talent for it.

R..

[kathydee]

I saw an aspiring DMT do something very naive and almost die durring the 30 day hero dash.

IMHO--nothing, absolutely nothing replaces depth of experience!!

[Thalassamania]

I was thinking about how long it would take to train a high aptitude student, from scratch, up through DM. I'd estimate that's about 120 hours. A schedule of four hours a day, every day for a month with the rest of the day free for extra dives and experience might work ... assuming excellent incoming water skills, a very high level of commitment and an iron constitution.

[Web Monkey]

I was thinking about how long it would take to train a high aptitude student, from scratch, up through DM. I'd estimate that's about 120 hours. A schedule of four hours a day, every day for a month with the rest of the day free for extra dives and experience might work ... assuming excellent incoming water skills, a very high level of commitment and an iron constitution.

That says more about the minimal DM requirements than anything else.

It's entirely possible (in fact, likely) that the "Instant DM" would be the least experienced diver on the boat.

Terry

[Thalassamania]

That says more about the minimal DM requirements than anything else.

It's entirely possible (in fact, likely) that the "Instant DM" would be the least experienced diver on the boat.

TerryNot really, I think that under the circumstances outlined I could train a competent DM, who could do the job as well, or better, than most who are starting out today.

[rjack321]

Not really, I think that under the circumstances outlined I could train a competent DM, who could do the job as well, or better, than most who are starting out today.

I don't see how even one individual (or institution unless its very large) can train a competent DM/AI (depending on their hat de jour). Unless you are just training up mini me's. The whole point of the leadership curriculum is to lead and be a role model. And absent any outside experiences, a 60 dive, one shop, never travelled DM just can't do that. When their vacation diver clients have been 10x more places and more (dive)life experience to boot, that's a red flag.

[Thalassamania]

I don't see how even one individual (or institution unless its very large) can train a competent DM/AI (depending on their hat de jour). Unless you are just training up mini me's. The whole point of the leadership curriculum is to lead and be a role model. And absent any outside experiences, a 60 dive, one shop, never travelled DM just can't do that. When their vacation diver clients have been 10x more places and more (dive)life experience to boot, that's a red flag.On the whole I'd agree with you; I rather doubt that a shop (or shop based instructor) could do this. I think I could, and a know perhaps a half dozen other instructors whom I think could (I'm sure there are more whom I do not know), but what they all have in common is the kind of broad diving and teaching experience usually gained running a diving program at a very large institution with world wide operations, not a local LDS or resort.

Remember, candidate background, skill and other qualities would also be critical. Not for the average Instructor or student.

[Teamcasa]

I don't see how even one individual (or institution unless its very large) can train a competent DM/AI (depending on their hat de jour). Unless you are just training up mini me's. The whole point of the leadership curriculum is to lead and be a role model. And absent any outside experiences, a 60 dive, one shop, never travelled DM just can't do that. When their vacation diver clients have been 10x more places and more (dive)life experience to boot, that's a red flag.

I see you point, really I do but I have to ask, is there no place in your paradigm for apprentices? I highly doubt any newly minted Instructor/Dive master leaves the course with 100% compentancy. Everyone gains experience and learns better on the job in real circumstances.

I (based on what I know of Thal) believe he could indeed train and graduate a competent Dive Master or Instructor in a short time. I also believe he would have no issue failing one mid-course should they not have the chops for the job.

[pittyyofool]

this zero to hero scares me I became an instructor years ago right out of high school. Then taught for about 2 years. One of the reasons I stopped teaching is I did not like the way most dive agency's started dismissing basic needed skills like weight and BC removal etc. The other reason is I did not have the experience or knowledge to answer non-book questions from students. While I have much more experience now I have no desire to teach again. (unless it is to friends or family)

[boulderjohn]

I (based on what I know of Thal) believe he could indeed train and graduate a competent Dive Master or Instructor in a short time. I also believe he would have no issue failing one mid-course should they not have the chops for the job.

I am more of the "you're not there yet--keep working" school of instruction than a fail-in-mid-course kind of guy, but I do not hesitate to agree that Thal or someone with similar credentials could do that job.

[rjack321]

I see you point, really I do but I have to ask, is there no place in your paradigm for apprentices? I highly doubt any newly minted Instructor/Dive master leaves the course with 100% compentancy. Everyone gains experience and learns better on the job in real circumstances.

I (based on what I know of Thal) believe he could indeed train and graduate a competent Dive Master or Instructor in a short time. I also believe he would have no issue failing one mid-course should they not have the chops for the job.

Good point. I think there is plenty of room for "on the job" mentoring/learning etc. And I even think this could be done in a couple months or a month if relatively intense. And it could happen in as few as 15 to 30 dives of on the job work (not for the newly certified)

I just think in general the minimum "base" for DM's (and instructors) is just way too low. If I had to put numbers to it, I would say for DMs, 200 dives in at least 2 different environments/locations. For instructors, 500 dives in at least 4 different environments.

People who hire a 60dive DM (or get assigned one) or a low budget 150dive instructor don't know what they are missing. But they generally miss out on all the little things that make diving FUN. More experienced leaders (across the board) would be able to impart more fun to their leading/instruction/classes/skills/etc and create more divers in the process instead of more cards.

For the record, I am toying with the DM/AI route now, with about 700 dives under my belt in 8-9 different places including full cave and normoxic trimix. I am not a nervous nilly, but I just now feel like I have the skills and experience to genuinely lead. In many practical ways I actually have more experience than my instructors, and I am leading/organizing technical wreck and cave trips together already. So the DM dealio is really more of a mutually supportive team effort than a class per se.

[Thalassamania]

I see you point, really I do but I have to ask, is there no place in your paradigm for apprentices? I highly doubt any newly minted Instructor/Dive master leaves the course with 100% competancy. Everyone gains experience and learns better on the job in real circumstances.

I (based on what I know of Thal) believe he could indeed train and graduate a competent Dive Master or Instructor in a short time. I also believe he would have no issue failing one mid-course should they not have the chops for the job.
I appreciate your confidence; you are correct that I would have no issue failing one mid-course should they not have the chops for the job, but it would be my hope to determine a candidate's unsuitability in the first day rather than later.

[roturner]

I don't see how even one individual (or institution unless its very large) can train a competent DM/AI (depending on their hat de jour). Unless you are just training up mini me's. The whole point of the leadership curriculum is to lead and be a role model. And absent any outside experiences, a 60 dive, one shop, never travelled DM just can't do that. When their vacation diver clients have been 10x more places and more (dive)life experience to boot, that's a red flag.

I wouldn't get too uptight about the experience thing. I've dived with DM's who were less experienced than I am and it's never bothered me. I don't really care and never see any reason to get my back up. This whole comparing hat sizes thing is lost on me. Under water it's just a group of divers and the DM is just another diver.

Either way I would think even a beginning DM would generally have more experience than the people who really need it.

R..

[Web Monkey]

It looks like a moot point. The website (and I suspect the program) no longer exists.

Terry

[rjack321]

I wouldn't get too uptight about the experience thing. I've dived with DM's who were less experienced than I am and it's never bothered me. I don't really care and never see any reason to get my back up. This whole comparing hat sizes thing is lost on me. Under water it's just a group of divers and the DM is just another diver.

Either way I would think even a beginning DM would generally have more experience than the people who really need it.

R..


I have seen quite a few poor DMs. One bolted on the group when he ran low on gas. Some have gone into deco (on a single Al80 of air in 43F water) while the guests dove nitrox. One tried to lead his nitrox diving clients below their MOD.

I guess I have seen enough cases where the DM was a liability not an asset that I go out of my way to find diving trip/vacations/etc. without them.

BTW, the best one was actually on a Blackbeard's charter to the Bahamas. Yes he was in the water with clients as a buddy, a leader, and a guide depending on the dive.

re the hat thing:
one role for DM is as a dive boat guide, typical in the Caribbean
one role is as an AI in classes, typical in my area

I don't doubt that a 60day DM could be an effective AI for the instructor who trained them.

I do doubt a 60day DM could be wise enough, in that short a timeframe with scant worldliness, to be the resident "expert" on a boat leading a diverse group of divers in a variety of conditions.

[Thalassamania]

...

I do doubt a 60day DM could be wise enough, in that short a timeframe with scant worldliness, to be the resident "expert" on a boat leading a diverse group of divers in a variety of conditions.No question that the AI type DM would be easy to create in 120 hours. You are right that the boat DM would be more of a challenge, but I honestly think that with care and attention to detail; with a program designed from day one (for example, at the same time you are teaching the student to mask clear you are also introducing identification and solution of mask clearing problems) it could still be done. Not easy, but possible, with a good student.

[nilsdiver]

We are offering training from Public Safety PROS, who are also PADI pros, no standards are being breached. A DM is a Professional not a layman, yet he is using layman skills, CPR and AED are for the layman not the pro. Most remote international resorts do not have staff trained to the level of the US, and we seek to change that.

Forgetting the zero to hero aspect - this point by the original poster is what really interested me. A PADI DM has taken the rescue class once and has taken CPR/First Aid in the last 2 years.

Based on information from my local Red Cross's www page this means:
Adult CRP/First Aid - 6.5 hours
AED - 1 hour

The life guard down at the local pool is required to have this training:

CPR/AED for Lifeguards (LPRO) - 8 hours

This course covers recognizing and caring for breathing and cardiac emergencies, two rescuer CPR, use of resuscitation mask and bag-valve mask.


Title 22 (Emergency Response/First Aid) - 15 hours

This course trains firefighters, peace officers, lifeguards, public personnel and other first responders in the knowledge and skills necessary to help sustain life, reduce pain, and minimize the consequences of injury or sudden illness until more advanced medical help can arrive in accordance with the requirement of Title 22 of California Code of Regulations.



Seems odd to my that a DM is not required to have more training in this area. Who do you want to be your surface support, the brand new DM or the brand new life guard?

[halemanō]

BTW, the best one was actually on a Blackbeard's charter to the Bahamas. Yes he was in the water with clients as a buddy, a leader, and a guide depending on the dive.

...


I do doubt a 60day DM could be wise enough, in that short a timeframe with scant worldliness, to be the resident "expert" on a boat leading a diverse group of divers in a variety of conditions.

After a few months of working full time on a 2 to 4 dive per day charter boat the 30 day DM should be an able "resident expert" on his boat. If all the hands on the boat are equally green with regards to the conditions that's pushing your luck.

The DM position would need to pay much better for there to be working DM's of the caliber you all seem to think you deserve. :shakehead:

My former co-worker who worked for Blackbeards was a graduate of ProDive, and ProDive is who got him the job (gauranteed job placement!).

Wouldn't it be ironic is the DM you praise was actually a zero to hero :D

[rjack321]

After a few months of working full time on a 2 to 4 dive per day charter boat the 30 day DM should be an able "resident expert" on his boat. If all the hands on the boat are equally green with regards to the conditions that's pushing your luck

Sure and in the meantime clients get?? Is a DM cert a learner's permit or a demonstrated capacity? I think it should be a demonstrated capacity and while there might be a rare student+institution that can move a highly gifted individual through a program in 6-8 weeks I don't think that should be the norm or even advertised as an option to a non-diver.



The DM position would need to pay much better for there to be working DM's of the caliber you all seem to think you deserve. :shakehead:

Well, if there were fewer, more capable ones and the whole program/industry truly rewarded leadership and wisdom vs. being the next card after rescue then they might be more valuable.


My former co-worker who worked for Blackbeards was a graduate of ProDive, and ProDive is who got him the job (gauranteed job placement!).

Wouldn't it be ironic is the DM you praise was actually a zero to hero :D

I don't think Prodive has a zero-to-hero program. And the 60day course offering that started this thread's discussion has been yanked.

[mikemill]

Since there aren't DMs on the boats here I have to ask: What is the DM's responsibility? The only time I've had an interaction with a DM is when there happened to be one on the boat for a AOW class.

[halemanō]

I don't think Prodive has a zero-to-hero program.

I suppose it depends on one's perspective; depending on your perspective here is their current full course schedule (http://www.prodiveusa.com/2009forms/ProDive_Schedule_inside.jpg) and here is the non-diver to DM in 6 weeks (http://www.prodiveusa.com/diamond.html).

30-50 dive OW certified divers can try to make instructor in ~6 weeks with a number of operators. I am biased in favor of programs similar to Pro Dive, as I am a product of Ocean Divers (Key Largo).

Done properly these programs weed out the weaker divers during Rescue and further thin ranks in DM. By the start of the IDC the candidates should have already shown all necessary instructor dive skills.

Divers who chose these programs can get a pretty good amount of experience if they work it right! Not all would be instructors should chose this path; to each his (or her) own.

[rjack321]

Done properly

There's an enormous if...



Divers who chose these programs can get a pretty good amount of experience if they work it right!

I guess that depends on your perspective. All their experience is still with one outfit, with one agency's teaching approach, in one water type, in one region, off a particular type of boat...

Not the worldly, broadly knowledgable diver a "divemaster" should be IMHO.

[muddiver]

Forgetting the zero to hero aspect - this point by the original poster is what really interested me. A PADI DM has taken the rescue class once and has taken CPR/First Aid in the last 2 years.

Based on information from my local Red Cross's www page this means:
Adult CRP/First Aid - 6.5 hours
AED - 1 hour

The life guard down at the local pool is required to have this training:

CPR/AED for Lifeguards (LPRO) - 8 hours

This course covers recognizing and caring for breathing and cardiac emergencies, two rescuer CPR, use of resuscitation mask and bag-valve mask.


Title 22 (Emergency Response/First Aid) - 15 hours

This course trains firefighters, peace officers, lifeguards, public personnel and other first responders in the knowledge and skills necessary to help sustain life, reduce pain, and minimize the consequences of injury or sudden illness until more advanced medical help can arrive in accordance with the requirement of Title 22 of California Code of Regulations.



Seems odd to my that a DM is not required to have more training in this area. Who do you want to be your surface support, the brand new DM or the brand new life guard?

The whole "should Instructors (and DM's by default) be required to have Lifeguard training" was hashed over last month. Nobody wants to go through the extra time and the enemic requirements for Rescue Diver as they are used now as a prerec for DM/Inst. don't support the process.

[W8less]

Hey how about a 30 day, 60 dive class for basic OW?

Might be an interesting poll/thread to see if current DM's have more certifications skills than a DM cert. Red Cross Lifeguard Training or WSI, EMT's

[halemanō]

Not the worldly, broadly knowledgable diver a "divemaster" should be IMHO.

In the real world the agencies and the employers have chosen a different definition of "divemaster."

I'm not happy about the fact that obese divers drift diving around Coz seem to be able to describe that activity as a "sport" now, and the fact that it seems the majority on SB also think the term "sport" applies to scuba diving. Your not happy about the fact that today's divemasters are not the worldly, broadly knowledgeable divers you think they should be.

I have seen very few divemasters produced the old way here in Hawaii the past 8 years, and most of them were single students that were ignored and postponed for months/years with the only times they were appreciated being when they were hauling gear and acting like assistants to facilitate large classes without the employer having to pay another Pro.

[padi613]

Zero to dive master in 30 days. Those dive organisations that promote this type of training tactics should not be allowed to continue in this manner. Again MONEY rears its ugly head putting profits before safety. I've been an instructor for some 10 years and I'm shocked by the lack of profesionalism, knowledge and skills that I have seen in a large number of so called diving profesionals. I do feel that it is time to adopt some of the older methods of training. Diving students should have to stay at the last achieved level for a period of time and accumalate X number of dives before being allowed to proceed to the next level. Is it the aim of these dive organisations to have a world full of diving instructors and zero open water qualified divers?
This situation is already occuring in the car industry where they now have more cars waiting to be sold than they have customers .

[rjack321]

In the real world the agencies and the employers have chosen a different definition of "divemaster."
.

I know. Same problem with "master scuba diver trainers" and even some "course directors". You can potentially get those pinnacle types cards with an alarming paucity of real world diving. Some pro candidates even do dinky little 21min dives (maybe several on one AL80) to pad their logbooks.



I'm not happy about the fact that obese divers drift diving around Coz seem to be able to describe that activity as a "sport" now, and the fact that it seems the majority on SB also think the term "sport" applies to scuba diving.

Kinda like watching Nascar? :lotsalove:


I have seen very few divemasters produced the old way here in Hawaii the past 8 years, and most of them were single students that were ignored and postponed for months/years with the only times they were appreciated being when they were hauling gear and acting like assistants to facilitate large classes without the employer having to pay another Pro.

That's just a reflection of top down business values vs. bottom up customer values. But since the majority of certified people today do $199 courses as a loss leader to get them to buy gear, most customers wouldn't know a highly competent instructor or DM if they hit them in the head.

[Kingpatzer]

Navy salvage divers spend 70 days in training. I expect they have to be a lot better qualified than any PADI DM does.

60 days, diving 3 times a day on average is a lot of time underwater. Many, many folks become DMs with only 50 or so dives under their belt.

[Goindrinkn]

What might a DM on a boat need to do well:
Fill tanks
Track divers in and out of the water
Brief divers on the site / conditions
Assist divers
Cook / prep food
Surface assistance
Emergency Management / CPR / First AID / O2 / etc.


Boo! Hiss! to this post. I was never taught anything about cooking in my DM class...

But one thing, and I think it's the biggest thing is missing from this list. As crew or an AI helping a class - Diver Safety is the biggest part of my job. (2nd would be schlepping stuff around) Yes I know the emergency management procedures, however much of being an effective dive master is knowing how to prevent the emergencies in the first place. It's identifying the still anxious OW diver that got their card last week after 2 days in the pool and a day at the beach and assisting or educating them in so they don't do something potentially stupid. Part of job is to identify and try to resolve the issue on the dock or on the boat before someone gets into a life threatening situation. And that would be really hard to learn and tune in 30 days.

I would say that the zero to hero idea was conceived by the same people that make their money with the "learn to dive in a weekend"... And the DM completing an overly accelerated program would exponentially increase the potential for a problem especially when putting newly certified divers in the water.

We want it now. - We want to be open water certified in a weekend, and dive master in a month. And who knows if the guy before them paid the extra money to become and instructor in 2 weeks, they could be learning from someone who shouldn't even be instructing.

Bad idea all around as I see it. - money before all else

[rjack321]

much of being an effective dive master is knowing how to prevent the emergencies in the first place. It's identifying the still anxious OW diver that got their card last week after 2 days in the pool and a day at the beach and assisting or educating them in so they don't do something potentially stupid. Part of job is to identify and try to resolve the issue on the dock or on the boat before someone gets into a life threatening situation. And that would be really hard to learn and tune in 30 days.

Apparently some people/institutions/agencies think this is one of those on-the-job things. I pity the freshly certified (in a weekend of course) who then get "mentored" by the 60dive divemaster.

[bbianchi]

As someone who managed to go from OW Mid April 08, to DM / MSD mid October 08, I would have to say in the end like anything else it depends on the person.

[hannahevan]

i sencond that well said

[hannahevan]

20 years ago I progressed from open water to instructor in 1 year. I didn't have that as a goal, I simply kept doing the next class each time it was offered. When I suddenly found myself as the instuctor fielding a bunch of "have you ever..." questions, I realized that while I had the knowledge and the credentials, I didn't have the experience to be a good instructor. I put teaching on hold and concentrated on diving for a couple of years. This was NOT a zero to hero, this took a full year. trying to take a non diver even to the DM level in 6 weeks is a guarunteed recipe for an overconfident, underqualified DM. I would never even consider hiring a product of a zero to hero program. It may not rise to the level of unsafe, but it will not produce a high quality dive professional.


i sencond that well said

well said i second that

[Jupiter31]

While it does depend upon the person, and could be done, my 30+ years diving experience (and 54 years life experince - and 5 year membership in AARP : ( tells me the following:

While I don't think you need 30 years experience, and to be approaching senior citizen discount age to become a DM, I do know that diving is a process with skills and experience built over time with lots of diving, in different weather, conditions and so forth.

What is the number? I don't know, but to me its way more than 60 dives and a hellofva lot longer than 30 days.

30 day hero's don't impress me.

During World War II, young, college educated men were given the opportunity to become commisioned officers via a 3 month program - it gave rise to the saying "90 day wonders" b/c while intellegent, and well trained, they just did not have the same experience as a person their age who went to the service academies or who was already serving as a junior officer.

This is not all that different - and if I lived in the 1940's, I know who I'd want as my commander if I was in the military.

[gr8fuldiverNC]

I know one of these zero to hero types, went all the way to instructor in about 6 months (I didnt know this was allowed, but they managed it), and started teaching. His first Advanced class was reassigned because his boss didnt have confidence in his ability to teach it after the instructor asked basic questions he should have known.

You can certainly get the requirements done in 30 days with an insane schedule, one hardly conducive to learning. I like to draw out OW so water work takes place over 3 days, even if I can do it in less, because the extra time gives students time to assimilate and analyze, rest and come back refreshed and positive. A four dive a day schedule is exhausting, physically and mentally. If the student is very good, this might be doable. But then academics on top of that? for 30 days? They could pass the tests, even ace them, but how much of this knowledge is retained?

30 days is a small snapshot in time, part of one season in one place. what about different conditions in other seasons or other places? how is a thick suit different from a thin one in weighting and feel. how is rough water different from calm, good vis vs bad, warm vs cold, fresh vs salt, boat vs shore? why does this guys rig look different from yours? how is dealing with 30 people in high season different than diving with just a few? What about the fish/geology/coral/history information your customers will surely ask you about?

No one can be expected to know everything, we are all always learning. But 30 days is not enough to prepare someone to work in the dive industry in any useful capacity. Well, maybe as a tank monkey!

[Clammy]

Someone on this thread mentioned that he thought an instructor should have experience in at least 4 different environments. What would be examples of those 4? Like warm water, cold water, fresh water, and my dry suit has icicles on it cold water? Or would it be more like pacific cold, pacific warm, atlantic rough, quarry fresh or something along those lines?

[Rhone Man]

I don't like the idea of a DM in 30 days at all, but to be fair, I have seen plenty of *&$*^#ing awful DMs who got trained along a more conventional timeline, so who the heck knows?

[eponym]

Someone on this thread mentioned that he thought an instructor should have experience in at least 4 different environments. What would be examples of those 4? Like warm water, cold water, fresh water, and my dry suit has icicles on it cold water? Or would it be more like pacific cold, pacific warm, atlantic rough, quarry fresh or something along those lines?I have followed this thread with interest since it started. I'm an SSI Dive Control Specialist instructor. SSI's Dive Control Specialist is a combination divemaster/assistant instructor rating.

When I'm conducting an Open Water Diver course I like to introduce a variety of scenarios in the classroom as well as in the pool. I want new divers to appreciate the idiosyncrasies of different enviornments: what special skills will be needed, what considerations come into play when planning the dive.

If (knowing what I know today) I were a non-diver signing up for my Open Water Diver course, I would hope that at some point we would discuss and prepare plans for a range of dives with special challenges, for example:

Warm water, great viz, steep wall

Cold water, shore entry, strong tidal currents

High mountain lake, cold air, heavy silt bottom

Open ocean, free ascent with no visual references

_
So that's a possible four. Not that four's a magic number, we could concont more.

I think I'm a better instructor for having experienced narcosis (both pleasant and dark), open-ocean pickup skiff dead in the water and drifting away, regulator freeze-ups, and silt-outs. Lessons learned the hard way, in some cases.

I was initially led to believe that sharing my stories in class was important. These days I don't usually tell those stories. Instead I try to minimize the number of lessons my students will have to learn the hard way.

-Bryan

[simmonsjr]

So, here's my two cents (from an AOW who is hoping to become a DM in the not so distant future). If I had the time I would do this program - not to zero-to-hero it, but because there can be great benefits to immersion based learning experiences (for example it is the best way to teach an adult a foreign language). Living this program for a whole month and being constantly in the DM mindset will produce the habits that are key to being a professional in any field. That being said I would modify their approach slightly. First off I would make rescue diver a prerequisite to the program and secondly I would follow the program with a lengthy internship under an instructor that I trusted to gain more experience outside of a training environment.

[flip12]

If you were to do a program would this not be a good foundation. It sound like a ski school if you survive your rookie year and you listen to training days and you go get certified you might have a career. I sure am not the instructor I was my first year but I was in it for the long haul. I still am learning every year.

[Elkfriend]

I have some experience with zero to hero programs, outside of diving - did a lot of them myself:

1) Skiinstructor in 1 month: yes you had to be good skier to pass, but there are a LOT of "non ski instructors" out there who are better skiers than I am!
2) MBA in less than 1 year; yes you had to get the grades, but there are a lot "non-MBAs" out there who make more money and have more business savyness!
3) Multiple University degrees in 4 years: see 2) above
4) And many other "certifications", such as a sailboat skipper in one night (7 hrs study at night, then write the test)

My insight: degrees and certification is one thing. It MUST be backed up by experience, otherwise you can not be "good" at whatever the degree is in. You can be merely mediocre, and in most cases just "barely get by".

Trust me the 60 day divemaster certification is based on "short term" memory. You learn as much as you can, write the test, pass and then forget about 80%. These people are not ready to teach - as some posts above highlight. The easiest way is to cover a topic in an afternoon and then write the test on that topic that same night. That way, in 60 days, you successfully write 60 "exams". But if you were to ask someone to write that same test 1 week later, without a refresher .... trouble!

The more meaningful route is to get experience first, then back it up with a degree. That way, everything you learn in classroom has an experienced based context. This is not short term memory, but sustainable learning.

But... it takes more time, so hotshots like myself (at the time) do want to come in first, faster and better, so you cut corners on experience and get the titles as fast as possible

I am thinking about doing a DM, just for fun. But knowing what I know now, I would take the time and not rush things. But that is easy to say, if you are not in a hurry (ie because you need a job or alike)

[drbill]

I've been diving for 48 years and have only achieved rescue certification. I'm smart enough to know I'm not ready to be a divemaster yet. I need to notch a few thousand more dives before I'll feel comfortable going that route.

As for 30 days... absurd. You don't gain the experience in 30 days that you need, and probably don't have enough incidents to know how you react to emergencies. I wouldn't trust a divemaster with so little experience.

[nilsdiver]

I've been diving for 48 years and have only achieved rescue certification. I'm smart enough to know I'm not ready to be a divemaster yet. I need to notch a few thousand more dives before I'll feel comfortable going that route.

As for 30 days... absurd. You don't gain the experience in 30 days that you need, and probably don't have enough incidents to know how you react to emergencies. I wouldn't trust a divemaster with so little experience.

Wow. Just wondering by this criteria, is there any divemaster you there you trust?

[boulderjohn]

I was thinking of this thread a while back while reading another thread. I am going to be pretty darn vague about that other thread because I am going to say something less then flattering about a participant, and I don't want anything to get too personal.

That participant talked about having accumulated over 200 dives over a number of years of diving. That person has a spouse with the same experience. Early on in the thread I doubted this, but eventually I became convinced that it was the truth.

Take that information away from the thread, and you would be convinced that this was an absolute beginner. This person described skill limitations for both of them that I would have expected would have been conquered in the first 20 dives at most. This person showed a remarkable lack of knowledge about the most basic dive concepts. (That is why I initially doubted the dive total.)

The reason for this emerged in the thread: all those dives took place on annual vacations to extremely tame dive locations, with the divers opting for the tamest of adventures on those sites.

Compare that with someone who has been diving only one month but has spent all day every day of that month diving under direct supervision, being given challenges to solve each dive, and spending part of each day immersed in diving theory.

I don't know if that person would have the type of knowledge and skills it takes to be a competent divemaster, but I would sure rather dive with that person than the ones described earlier.

[Web Monkey]

Wow. Just wondering by this criteria, is there any divemaster you there you trust?

I trust my regular buddies.

Eveybody else goes into the "maybe" category until proven otherwise.

Do I trust a random DM just because I stepped on to a boat and he was there?

No.

Terry

[muddiver]

I've been diving for 48 years and have only achieved rescue certification. I'm smart enough to know I'm not ready to be a divemaster yet. I need to notch a few thousand more dives before I'll feel comfortable going that route.

As for 30 days... absurd. You don't gain the experience in 30 days that you need, and probably don't have enough incidents to know how you react to emergencies. I wouldn't trust a divemaster with so little experience.

Bill, nobody wants to hire a DM over the age of 25 because the phyisical ability curve is starting to drop off after that. At our age it's better to jump strait to "God" status with an Instructor rating so we can impart our vast knowledge and wisdom while some poor 30-something DM takes care of "hearding the cats" and "saving the damsels" for us. :D