Is safe second really needed?

[pittyyofool]

I have racked my brain for months trying to answer that question. "Is safe second (octo) really needed for open water diving?" I see and know the necessity for a long hose primary and a short secondary in wreck, cave or technical diving (when i wreck dive I use a proper set up). So this question is strictly regarding recreational open water dives within the NDL. In my 14 years of diving I have never been in nor been able to think of a situation where buddy breathing would not suffice, but a "octo" could. To me it seems the only thing an "octo" is good for is beating reefs and a kelp anchor, because those "octo keepers" don't work worth a damn. With this in mind my (very experienced) buddy and I removed our "octos" about 8 months ago. Since then we get dirty "unsafe" looks from people and DM's, once in a while some one says "we are dangerous and need an octo so we can share air." To that we have replied "Why is that? Isn't that is why they invented Buddy Breathing". To date no diver nor DM has been able to come up with a better answer than "It is easier', or because PADI said so bla bla bla. And I have even received a "Hell Yeah, stick it to him" from an old timer. As of now I personally think an "octo' is a security blanket for the inexperienced or under trained diver.

So here is the true question can anyone give me a valid reason why I should carry a "octo" on open water dives? And further more a situation where buddy breathing would not work, but an "octo" would. Please justify your reasoning and back it up with a story if possible. Or if you agree, leave a "Hell Yeah".

PS: don't tell me to get a BC air source, they are annoying and hinder effective manual inflation of the air cell.

[Gombessa]

Why dismiss the value of something easier and less stressful in the event of a gas emergency, especially when it prevents the donating diver from peril as well?

If your buddy isn't around or paying attention when you have a problem, buddy breathing doesn't work.

[sharkbaitDAN]

Because many divers are not taught how to buddy breathe anymore. I have no idea how many times I've donated my octo. Buddy breathing is no good if the buddy doesn't know how to do it. Up to a point, I agree its a crutch, but I would also argue octo breathing is safer because both people have a reg in their mouths at all times. This means at no time can one diver think "what if he doesn't give his reg back?" Training is all well and good, but the majority of divers I see dive once a year, and quite frankly, the notion of buddy breathing with a poorly trained, panicked diver scares me. A lot.

Granted, if you only dive with buddies you know, this is pretty much a moot argument.

[Shcubasteve]

What if your buddy or some other panic stricken, out-of-air diver snatches out your primary and won't give it back? My parents tell a story of checkout dives in the 70s where buddy breathing was standard... Sounds scary to me. :D

[TC]

Sure, your buddy has not been trained in buddy breathing.

Not all agencies require this anymore so theres a sizeable group out there that do not possess the training.

Could they learn- sure, but having an additional second fits better with the training the folks are getting now and because of that it increases safety a bit.

Having a diver that may already be a bit panicky remove their air source repeatedly to pass it back and forth is not a safer alternative to giving them a second stage they can hang onto.

[AzAtty]

As of now I personally think an "octo' is a security blanket for the inexperienced or under trained diver.

I'm suppressing the urge to channel GI3.

After experiencing a loss of gas, exit single-file from a narrow, silted out cave or wreck when the only guide out is your reel. Add a few stage and deco bottles to your list of things to manage. Then ask the question again if the reasons for a backup are still unclear.

The reasons for a backup don't change merely because the environment changes.

[Jorgy]

I agree with Gombessa.......why not have the octo in case you need it?

Sure you could buddy breath, but what is the benefit of more task loading in what could be a very stressful situation.......

As far as an octo just being good for "beating reefs and a kelp anchor"......that's just bad gear routing, stowage and general lack of respect........no excuse for that at all, like beating the reef with fins............I think scuba certification should focus more on gear set-up and reef/ocean awareness - diving rules of the road if you will.........

Personally, I could never imagine diving without a secondary..........

As I often dive with my darling bride and children, I guess the secondary is there for them, and they are 1000000% worth it........

M

[Jupiter31]

Back in the '70's when I got certified, buddy breathing was taught as a skill that needed to be mastered to pass the course; just like mask clearing. I am not sure this skill is even taught anymore. Don't think the time to learn is when a person is out of air at 60 feet.

Personally, in an out of air situation, where panic can come into play, an octo is a much better solution, because you can't depend on having the other party relinquish the reg. What works well in a pool, or a controled environment might not in a real world situation.

Its also a safety factor in the unlikely event you have a problem with your primary.

Also, while somewhat gross, a new diver recently posted she vomited in her primary at depth, but used her octo to complete the dive.

On the comment about the octo bouncing along the reef, this is a peeve of mine; easily solved by attaching the octo via a snorkle keeper (less than a dollar) to a D ring on your BC - no reason not to have this piece of safety equipment; agree they should teach proper gear set up as a part of basic certification.

[Sas]

The main reason is because many new divers are not taught buddy breathing. I know I didn't learn that in OW and learned it later on with my buddy. I trust my regular buddies to be fine with buddy breathing if needed, but not random people I might be paired with on a boat.

Another reason is that my primary second stage might fail for some reason and it would be nice to have a backup for myself. I have mine on a bungee around my neck, so doesn't beat kelp and dangle around the place. My primary is stowed across my chest and around my neck so doesn't dangle or catch on things either.

Another nice reason to have an occy is so that you can share air with your buddy if there is a big difference in air consumption. For example, one buddy wasn't able to get a tank filled recently so started the dive with 100 bar. We shared air for much of the dive as I had a full tank and were able to both get an 80min dive in that way. It would have been annoying to do the dive buddy breathing.

Also one other reason - hygiene. One guy who ran OOA on me had bad coldsores that day, ick >.< I wouldn't want to buddy breathe with someone who had coldsores! Ending up with a gross lifelong disease via sharing a mouthpiece with some idiot who ran out on me is not something I really want to risk. He can have his own second stage that I can spend time disinfecting after the dive.

[CR Diver]

Generally, I try to stay away from having an opinion on other divers gear, especially when they are far more expierenced than I am.

I believe that the configuration of YOUR gear is YOUR business, with some consideration to your buddy.

If your diving with someone at your experience level and is comfortable with your setup on OW dives, then enjoy your dives. I dive occasionally with the local dive club (most members have been diving 20+ years) and they dive with very little redundancy. No BC's (relying on drysuit), no octo's, nice simple rigs. Who am I to have an opinion on their configuration. On Sunday my buddy and I were at 135', and one of the good old boys (diving 30yrs) went by to whatever depth with one of these rigs, we were impressed with how clean he looked on the way by.

I also dive with newly OW certs (or am in the water with them) most weekends. Listening to them breathe underwater, I have the opinion that they would not be able to buddy breathe with another diver properly, as they are breathing to hard to give up an air source in a buddy breathing situation. I have had one OOA situation with a fellow DM candidate (he had a reg malfunction) at 120'. We were on our decent to a wall in current and cold water (46F). He grabbed my fin and walked up my body until he found my wreck hose (octo) and started breathing off of it. It took a few moments for him to catch his breathe as he had been holding it for a while. If we were trying to buddy breathe i would have been holding my breathe for quite a while waiting for him to recover from having no air. By having a extra regulator on we were able to manage the situation comfortably. In this situation it was definatly benefical to have an extra air source.

My point is: Your configuration is your configuration Find a buddy that dives the same way, and ignore the rest of us.

[Jonny boy]

I'm suppressing the urge to channel GI3.

After experiencing a loss of gas, exit single-file from a narrow, silted out cave or wreck when the only guide out is your reel. Add a few stage and deco bottles to your list of things to manage. Then ask the question again if the reasons for a backup are still unclear.

The reasons for a backup don't change merely because the environment changes.

errrrr, i fail to see the link behind exiting a cave using touch only, with stage bottles hanging off and sharing gas and doing a NDL open water dive.
The OP expressly stated that his question was based on an open water dive staying within the NDL. As per most tables you can do an ascent to the surface at any point (unless you come within 3 pressure groups of the NDL etc etc yada yada yada) hence you are not in an overhead environment with a deco obligation, yet you insist on making that comparison......why is that? The dive described wasn't a 30,000ft penetration into Wakulla, there were probably no scooters, no deco bottles, hell if it was an open water NDL dive it was probably on a single tank!!!! Why is it that DIR divers cannot simply answer a question with a straightforward normal answer (I understand that this is a a rash gereralization.....sorry) and without the need to 'Channel GI3'...........
Rant off

In answer to the OP's question.............no reason at all provided both you and the buddy are efficient and capable buddy breathers

[fdog]

<snip>
So here is the true question can anyone give me a valid reason why I should carry a "octo" on open water dives? And further more a situation where buddy breathing would not work, but an "octo" would. Please justify your reasoning and back it up with a story if possible. <snip>

Okay. As requested, here's a story where an octo was a good idea (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/near-misses-lessons-learned/277925-close-call-flooded-reg-dm-blue-angel-cozumel.html).

I know everyone will read this and say "that wouldn't happen to me", but, here the diver had a malfunctioning second stage and the buddy was out of reach.


All the best, James

[TSandM]

If you dive habitually with this buddy, and both of you are completely comfortable buddy breathing, and you would be fine with having somebody ELSE swim up to you and mug you for your reg and not give it back . . . :)

You're probably fine doing what you are doing. For me, I like the convenience and simplicity of having all the setups I have be the same. Open water or cave, I dive the same arrangement, and it makes life easy.

[Timoblue]

And I have even received a "Hell Yeah, stick it to him" from an old timer.


Hell no

Old timers and there wishful input Bless!

Personally i don't do OW without mine m8.. Never really thought about it not being there and not having it around when i dive.

Its all about comfort and personal choice i guess. If i can help myself or someone else with my octo then thats why i keep it.

[elan]

I have not read all the replies yet but my understanding of octo necessity is: It's no more than your courtesy to your buddy. You just give your buddy convenience of not being forced to buddy breath through one reg which is imho more difficult for novice divers. So if you have an experienced guy as a buddy it would not matter I think but for inexperienced diver that can be a burden.

[elan]

Back in the '70's when I got certified, buddy breathing was taught as a skill that needed to be mastered to pass the course; just like mask clearing. I am not sure this skill is even taught anymore. Don't think the time to learn is when a person is out of air at 60 feet.

I cannot say for all the schools but my instructor was teaching body breathing when I was taking the class a year ago. Though he made a reference that now this is "not really mandatory as everyone has an octo, but is very usefull skill to have"

[PfcAJ]

I'm suppressing the urge to channel GI3.

After experiencing a loss of gas, exit single-file from a narrow, silted out cave or wreck when the only guide out is your reel. Add a few stage and deco bottles to your list of things to manage. Then ask the question again if the reasons for a backup are still unclear.

The reasons for a backup don't change merely because the environment changes.

What on earth are you talking about? Something tells me that you don't really know.

Please. Explain. For the benefit of everyone reading this thread.

[DaleC]

Seeing as you asked... Because it is _____ up if you dive around other divers (which it sounds like you do).

To me, removing your octo in an era where divers are not taught to buddy breath effectively is a selfish move designed to impress other divers with how "terminally unique" you are but what you are really saying through your actions is: "don't neccisarily look to me for help if you need it - I'll only help on my old, out dated terms." That's good if everbody understands the rules but irresponsible if they do not. If you are so experienced I'm surprised you couldn't figure that out.

If you are soloing or diving a site where other divers are not present I don't see a problem, I believe in doing whatever you want in those situations; but around other divers, if you cared about someone other than yourself or your immediate buddy you wouldn't remove a piece of safety gear designed to aid THE OTHER GUY. Maybe that's why the DM's give you the dirty looks. Their training asks them think of the other guy.

If you can't keep your octo clipped off perhaps a OW refresher course is in order. After all, you're the one removing it so I assume you're the one with the problem. Even with my low dive count I managed to figure out how to bungee the back up. Was it really such a problem for you?

Hope I didn't sugar coat that too much but I'm not impressed.

[weaserm99]

In a simple answer i think it is. I see a lot of divers that try to cut something out of their set up because they dont feel that they need it anymore. Yes the octopus does make it simpler for an out of air emergency. I remember being in Tobermory Ontario one time when there were two divers, one had just frozen his regulator, when he went to his buddy (who was diving with an air 2 system) the buddy refused to give the guy with the free flow his primary regulator. Luckily an instructor saw this and swam over and gave the guy his octopus. These two divers were not trained by the shop i work for, we prefer to teach the octopus method because it is so simple. The reality is that in a true emergency are you going to be willing to take your regulator out of your mouth the give it someone else, now with buddy breathing your partner has to give back the regulator, if they are panicked then who knows if you will get it back.

[Sas]

To me, removing your octo in an era where divers are not taught to buddy breath effectively is a selfish move designed to impress other divers with how "terminally unique" you are

I think you've hit the nail on the head there DaleC!

[Deefstes]

Buddy breathing is not easy, even for divers who have been taught the skill. My buddy (wife) and I try to practice these skills from time to time and I'm shocked to see how buddy breathing still seems to send our buoyancy control into orbit.

Let me put it this way, if I'm buddying with my wife (whom I trust, whom I think is a good diver and without whom I have only done three dives), I would MUCH rather have an octo to breathe of should we ever have a real world OOA situation than having to buddy breathe. It's just not fun.

[pittyyofool]

I have to agree DaleC gave the only good response. It is "inconsiderate" to divers I do not know, partially due to the modern incompetent training standards. So on the "rare occasion" (1 out of 20) that I dive near the general public I should put an octo back on my regs to be nice... As far as reef beating with the octo goes, I learned long ago how to tame the beast. I would brass clip it on to my lower right D-ring, but I would still get flack because it is not "grab and pull". After 10 or so years of that I decided to remove it. So in tern I will bite the bullet and brass clip an octo on when I dive near other people. I am open to other ideas for securing the octo that are "grab and pull" and have an almost 0% come loose on its own rate.

fdog: thank you for the input, but it has happened to me. I was om my boat diving and unknowingly set my tank on my regs and cracked the front plastic cover. Long story short 20min in to the dive my reg fell apart and I sucked water. I did not even think of the octo, I took the reg out of my mouth and saw no cover or diaphragm. To me the simple solution was to use my finger and push the demand lever to force my reg to free flow. So I did and safely acceded breathing from a free flowing reg.

AzAtty: Did you read the post non-tech within the NDL. And I have been there and done that! I was 100ft into the Moody (off the cost of Long Beach CA in 145fsw) when I suspected a bad mix due to severe stomach cramps, the mix was probably OK but I would rather play it safe in that situation. I used my buddies 7ft primary to exit and get to a stage bottle hanging from my boat.

TSandM: I have always admired your sensible knowledgeable posts. To answer you question Yes, I am fine having my life support system ripped out of my mouth by another diver that is not willing to give back. As they teach in the USCG rescue course " Do Not Ever let yourself as the rescuer become the victim, If need be render them unconscious (punch them in the face) in order to assure your safety, then complete the rescue." Because a panicking "rescuer" is nothing more than another victim. When the rescuer properly gets control of a "drought" victim in salt water the victims heart can stay beating up to 10 minutes after unconsciousness and revival rate is high and brain damage is minimal in the first 5 minutes. Yes, it might be selfish of me not to carry an octo for my buddy, but I trust him not to freak out on me and we do have an understanding...
I understand the reasoning for always diving the same set up. I just prefer not to do my DIR rig for a simple everyday 40ft hohum dive in Catalina. To tell you the truth, I have on a few occasions, just put on fins and held the tank and regs under my arm for a dive or two in perfect conditions.

[Reg Braithwaite]

I often encounter questions along the following lines:

Why X? X is unnecessary, X is inconvenient, doing X proves you're incompetent. Please explain X including proof, two or more citations from recognized authorities, and three independent examples of research justifying X.

I usually rephrase questions like this as a statement: I don't like X and I don't want to do it!. However, others may rise to the troll-bait and answer, and no matter how reasonable the answer the follow-up is often relentless nit-pickery attempting to invalidate any answers defending X.

If you don't want to carry an octo, don't carry an octo. You don't need to justify your decision with strangers on the internet, nor do you need to rationalize your decision by engaging in faux reasoning. Your buddy (if any) is the only person with an interest in your strategy for dealing with emergencies.

Be safe and have fun with my blessing (for what little it is worth).

[TSandM]

I just prefer not to do my DIR rig for a simple everyday 40ft hohum dive in Catalina

I would respectfully request that you term this a Hog rig rather than a DIR rig, because your attitude toward diving is not at all DIR. (Which is fine, but please don't use the term, lest others believe that punching someone who needs your spare gas is a DIR approach to things.)

[Walter]

Is safe second (octo) really needed for open water diving?

No. It's nice to have, but it's not necessary.


Because many divers are not taught how to buddy breathe anymore.

Ah, agencies have given up training divers adequately, so it becomes everyone else's reponsibility to pick up the slack? I don't buy it.


What if your buddy or some other panic stricken, out-of-air diver snatches out your primary and won't give it back?

You take it back.


My parents tell a story of checkout dives in the 70s where buddy breathing was standard... Sounds scary to me.

Maybe to you, but to me it's much more scary to dive with folks who are afraid of buddy breathing. Fear of buddy breathing sho0ws a basic lack of confidence and skill level.


If you dive habitually with this buddy, and both of you are completely comfortable buddy breathing, and you would be fine with having somebody ELSE swim up to you and mug you for your reg and not give it back . . .

So you then buddy breathe with your buddy.


I have not read all the replies yet but my understanding of octo necessity is: It's no more than your courtesy to your buddy.

Don't you consider it a courtesy to everyone to read all the replies (there were only 13 before yours) before you reply?


Buddy breathing is not easy

Buddy breathing is extremely easy.


My buddy (wife) and I try to practice these skills from time to time and I'm shocked to see how buddy breathing still seems to send our buoyancy control into orbit.

You need more practice.


I would respectfully request that you term this a Hog rig rather than a DIR rig, because your attitude toward diving is not at all DIR. (Which is fine, but please don't use the term, lest others believe that punching someone who needs your spare gas is a DIR approach to things.)

Why would anyone think it was a DIR approach when he just stated he wasn't diving DIR?

[captain]

Seeing as you asked... Because it is _____ up if you dive around other divers (which it sounds like you do).

To me, removing your octo in an era where divers are not taught to buddy breath effectively is a selfish move designed to impress other divers with how "terminally unique" you are but what you are really saying through your actions is: "don't neccisarily look to me for help if you need it - I'll only help on my old, out dated terms." That's good if everbody understands the rules but irresponsible if they do not. If you are so experienced I'm surprised you couldn't figure that out.

If you are soloing or diving a site where other divers are not present I don't see a problem, I believe in doing whatever you want in those situations; but around other divers, if you cared about someone other than yourself or your immediate buddy you wouldn't remove a piece of safety gear designed to aid THE OTHER GUY. Maybe that's why the DM's give you the dirty looks. Their training asks them think of the other guy.

If you can't keep your octo clipped off perhaps a OW refresher course is in order. After all, you're the one removing it so I assume you're the one with the problem. Even with my low dive count I managed to figure out how to bungee the back up. Was it really such a problem for you?

Hope I didn't sugar coat that too much but I'm not impressed.

Is not ever having carried an octo rather then deciding to remove it also considered selfish or do I get grandfathered into the octo era because I started diving in the pre-octo era.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I have to agree DaleC gave the only good response. It is "inconsiderate" to divers I do not know,

I agree that Dale gave the correct response ... but I believe the correct term was "terminally unique".



partially due to the modern incompetent training standards.

Math teachers no longer teach people how to use a slide rule either ... does that make their training standards "incompetent"?

Why teach outdated techniques simply to accommodate the egos of the few remaining scuba dinosaurs out there?



So on the "rare occasion" (1 out of 20) that I dive near the general public I should put an octo back on my regs to be nice... As far as reef beating with the octo goes, I learned long ago how to tame the beast. I would brass clip it on to my lower right D-ring, but I would still get flack because it is not "grab and pull". After 10 or so years of that I decided to remove it. So in tern I will bite the bullet and brass clip an octo on when I dive near other people. I am open to other ideas for securing the octo that are "grab and pull" and have an almost 0% come loose on its own rate.

There are several alternatives to choose from ... the most obviously reliable is a bungeed secondary and a primary that you donate in the event of an OOA.



fdog: thank you for the input, but it has happened to me. I was om my boat diving and unknowingly set my tank on my regs and cracked the front plastic cover. Long story short 20min in to the dive my reg fell apart and I sucked water. I did not even think of the octo, I took the reg out of my mouth and saw no cover or diaphragm. To me the simple solution was to use my finger and push the demand lever to force my reg to free flow. So I did and safely acceded breathing from a free flowing reg.

I compliment your ability to do things the hard way.



TSandM: I have always admired your sensible knowledgeable posts. To answer you question Yes, I am fine having my life support system ripped out of my mouth by another diver that is not willing to give back. As they teach in the USCG rescue course " Do Not Ever let yourself as the rescuer become the victim, If need be render them unconscious (punch them in the face) in order to assure your safety, then complete the rescue." Because a panicking "rescuer" is nothing more than another victim. When the rescuer properly gets control of a "drought" victim in salt water the victims heart can stay beating up to 10 minutes after unconsciousness and revival rate is high and brain damage is minimal in the first 5 minutes.

Why not just use your dive knife to fend him off ... after all, it takes a while for someone to bleed to death, and you can always suture him back up once you're on the boat ...



Yes, it might be selfish of me not to carry an octo for my buddy, but I trust him not to freak out on me and we do have an understanding...

Diving's all about personal choices ... mine is to simply not dive with "selfish" dive buddies. I'm all for people making choices, but the cost/benefit analysis needs to fit the circumstances. If I'm diving with another diver, my choices have to take into account why I'm choosing to have a dive buddy in the first place.



I understand the reasoning for always diving the same set up. I just prefer not to do my DIR rig for a simple everyday 40ft hohum dive in Catalina.

That statement is a contradiction in terms. "DIR" doesn't have a rig ... they have a method and mindset that includes a certain gear configuration. Wearing the gear doesn't make you DIR ... and everything you've typed in this thread suggests that you're about as far from DIR as a diver can possibly get. I'd recommend leaving DIR out of the discussion.



To tell you the truth, I have on a few occasions, just put on fins and held the tank and regs under my arm for a dive or two in perfect conditions.

How terminally unique ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[NWGratefulDiver]

Is not ever having carried an octo rather then deciding to remove it also considered selfish or do I get grandfathered into the octo era because I started diving in the pre-octo era.

It depends on whether or not you're diving with a buddy ... and whether or not that buddy has agreed to dive with someone who doesn't use one.

There's more to being a dive buddy than just jumping in the water with someone. If you are both on the same page in terms of what you're doing, then it's fine. If you're of a mind that in the event of a problem your dive buddy's going to have to deal with it on your terms ... then I hope you made that clear when the two of you were planning the dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Blackwood]

Why not just use your dive knife to fend him off

I'm getting fond memories of a really funny thread.

[trogloxene]

I have never had a flat tire or a dead battery in my truck. I am going to remove my spare tire and jumper cables today :D. Truthfully, you never need it - until you NEED it. Personally, I would keep it

Sean

[Suian]

I do know of people that dive without an occy and their choice, personally I'd never do such a thing.
I see it from this perspective:
If you are 30m or 100m or 10m down and something goes wrong, you can't always rely on your buddy, buddy breathing may be a "redundant" skill, but its not that its outdated, its more that is very unreliable if you or your buddy are narced or panicing at the time.

You also can't put a price on a Human life either.

[Walter]

I have never had a flat tire or a dead battery in my truck. I am going to remove my spare tire and jumper cables today . Truthfully, you never need it - until you NEED it. Personally, I would keep it

The difference is you are not replacing your spare tire or jumper cables with a working alternative. He's diving with a buddy who is, like him, comfortable with buddy breathing. That is a working alternative. They don't NEED it. It's nice to have and I recommend they put their octos back on and leave them there, but they don't need them.

[Gombessa]

JeffG's Law: As a diving discussion grows longer, the probability of invoking DIR approaches 1.


I'm suppressing the urge to channel GI3.

Our first place loser, and beautifully random to boot! Congrats good sir!


Why is it that DIR divers cannot simply answer a question with a straightforward normal answer (I understand that this is a a rash gereralization.....sorry) and without the need to 'Channel GI3'...........


Because GI3 has all the answers. What do you call it when you row a boat? Stroke. Why's grampa seizing like that? Stroke. What function do you use in Photoshop that gives a hard outline around a selection? Stroke. Also, you lose.


I just prefer not to do my DIR rig for a simple everyday 40ft hohum dive in Catalina.

Trolling is an artform; when you try too hard, it just looks needy.


I would respectfully request that you term this a Hog rig rather than a DIR rig, because your attitude toward diving is not at all DIR.

Wow Lynne, that's almost Minnesota nice :)


Why would anyone think it was a DIR approach when he just stated he wasn't diving DIR?

Walter can't lose, he'll just outquote and outlast everybody. You get a pass.


everything you've typed in this thread suggests that you're about as far from DIR as a diver can possibly get. I'd recommend leaving DIR out of the discussion.

Elegant baiting, Bob. The lose count will only increase.

God, this whole thread is like talking to Hitle...damn, I lose.

[Rhone Man]

I don't dive with an octo when open water diving, but that is just personal preference. "Every man should be free to seek his own road to hell."

[Rhone Man]

You also can't put a price on a Human life either.

Not true. The American DOT values a statistical human life at $5.8 million (http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/policy/reports/080205.htm).

The British DOT only values it at GBP 165,000 though. Oh well.

[DaleC]

Is not ever having carried an octo rather then deciding to remove it also considered selfish or do I get grandfathered into the octo era because I started diving in the pre-octo era.

Captain,
I like your posts and the way you dive so I'm not going to go there with you. There's a difference between the way you and the OP approach it in my eyes (from the wording of his post). I would look forward to diving with you anytime, and gaining from your experience.

I'm all for independance, experimentation, stepping off the beaten path etc... most of my role models have this trait and I engage it it quite a bit myself. However, I have one simple rule that I try to follow:

If I'm going to do something off the wall I'm the one that takes the hit - not some unsuspecting other guy.

I believe a thinking diver can accomplish their personal goals and consider the safety of others. If someone sets the other guy up for a hit they get a thumbs down in my book.

[DailyLunatic]

[QUOTE=pittyyofool;4383266]So here is the true question can anyone give me a valid reason why I should carry a "octo" on open water dives? And further more a situation where buddy breathing would not work, but an "octo" would. Please justify your reasoning and back it up with a story if possible. Or if you agree, leave a "Hell Yeah". QUOTE]
Hmmm... Why would I want to have a backup for my Life Support System... hmmm...

[rstofer]

The reality is that in a true emergency are you going to be willing to take your regulator out of your mouth the give it someone else, now with buddy breathing your partner has to give back the regulator, if they are panicked then who knows if you will get it back.

We were taught that when donating your primary (before octos), you kept your hand on the regulator under your buddy's hand. If your OOA buddy didn't give you the regulator, you took it back. With excess force, if necessary. Never, ever, let go of the regulator!

I want to dive with my double hose regulator. This poses a problem with buddy breathing in that my buddy (my wife) has absolutely no interest in trying to breathe from a DH much less buddy breathe. So, I have an octo on a short hose clipped to my upper right D-ring. As it lays, I can breathe from it. My buddy can get up close and personal to grab a breathe and then we can unclip it. It's not as neat as a long hose solution but, in the context of DH, it's about as good as it's going to get.

Richard

[Peter Guy]

Why have an Octo when diving OW -- well, here's a story from a long ago time involving my Dad and his wife/buddy.

In the late 60's my Dad heard about some guys who had put a 2nd second stage on their regulator thus giving them a spare. He thought this was an interesting idea and he and the LDS owner figured out how to put together an "octopus" for my Dad and Mel (LDS owner). One day Dad and wife were out diving (hunting?) when wife started sucking hard and then she reached to pull down her J and guess what -- it was already down! She swam over to him, grabbed that new-fangled (why do you have THAT when you can easily buddy breathe?) contraption -- problem FOR BOTH OF THEM easily solved.

Were they taught to buddy breathe? Of course -- that was the only option generally accepted. Did they learn that using an "Octopus safe second" was a lot simpler and less stressful than BB? You bet.

BTW, within the week my step-mother had an "Octopus safe second" on her reg too!

(Note, this was in 1971? and they are both still pretty hale and hearty in their late 80's early 90's -- I should be so lucky!)

[pittyyofool]

[B]JeffG's Law:

Trolling is an artform; when you try too hard, it just looks needy.



Hhahahahahaha LOL. You hit that nail on the head. You are a wise fish and did not fall for the bait, but some others... well they say you never catch the smart fish.

TsandM: I will do as you request and not refer to it as DIR and use HOG form now on, or until I change my ways and never question authority. This is to limit confusion, too the obvious I AM NOWHERE CLOSE TO A DIR MINDSET. I have never been to a GUE class. I just use a HOG like rig for my wreck diving, because it is sensible, practical, and a well designed unit for non-recreational situations.

[pittyyofool]

Now lets get back on topic.
We are looking for good answers for the original question.

DaleC: Has left the best reply with the strongest argument thus far, and actually persuaded me to clip an octo on for "public occasions".

Walter: Thanks, one can almost always count on you to play delves advocate and go agents the grain weather you personally agree with the topic or not. You have a rare ability to remove emotion and reasonably asses a situation and see the reality of it. (If my buddy and I wand to potentially kill our self's by diving in this manner by god let us so long as it dose not harm an innocent bystander. The law "rules" are suppose to protect one from another not protect me from myself.)

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned an underwater rescue situation where a diver is found unconscious due to O2 poisoning from being to deep for there nitrox mix. An octo would aid in this situation you could supply them with a constant appropriate gas mix on the way to the surface. To me this is a strong argument and it has been failed to be mentioned. But this goes back to diving with the public, and my buddy and I only use gas mixes when we are planing a Deco dive. Then we are dressed in at least 1/2 HOG attire and have an octo.

[tomboyy]

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I would think that no one but a scuba god is immune from a co2 overload. Once your in over load mode your breathing pattern changes. so if your diving in a OW enviroment with other divers BESIDES your buddy ... meaning other divers are around... your better off having an octo because panicked divers can do strange things. If your only diving with your buddy .. I would hope your both on your A game because again Panic can and will make even a seasoned pro lose his/her mind.

[pittyyofool]

Yes, very true panic can cause erratic breathing which can lead to co2 build up which can be compounded by being narked. After all A scuba god (David Shaw) did die from this a few years back.
As I said My buddy and I will start clipping on an octo when we dive around strangers. DaleC made a great argument for that.

[Walter]

If my buddy and I wand to potentially kill our self's by diving in this manner by god let us so long as it dose not harm an innocent bystander.

While I agree with the concept, I don't believe it applies in this situation. Buddy breathing is a tried and true method of bringing an OOA diver to the surface. It's very easy to do and quite effective. It's not my first choice, but it's a very close second. It works just as well as using an octo, it just not quite as easy.


I am surprised that nobody has mentioned an underwater rescue situation where a diver is found unconscious due to O2 poisoning from being to deep for there nitrox mix. An octo would aid in this situation you could supply them with a constant appropriate gas mix on the way to the surface.

I wouldn't mention that because I wouldn't put a regulator in the nouth of an unconscious diver. If the regulator is in place, I would hold it there as I brought the diver to the surface. If it was not in place, I would not replace it, I'd just bring the diver up.


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Page 2? I'm on page 1.


If your only diving with your buddy .. I would hope your both on your A game because again Panic can and will make even a seasoned pro lose his/her mind.

There's no reason for a competent OOA diver to panic. Panic comes from fear. A competent diver is not afraid of being OOA because it's an extremely easy situation to manage.

[Slonda828]

I am not going to quote, invoke, or otherwise claim knowledge that is second hand. I dive vintage gear a lot, and so does my girlfriend. We both know how to buddy breathe. We are both comfortable with no octopus down to the recreational limits of 132 feet. I know that the OP was asking for comments in a unique way, but there are plenty of us who dive without octos. The vast majority of the National Association of Vintage Equipment Divers does it every time we demonstrate vintage gear.

I understand that not everyone is comfortable with diving a single second stage, and I respect that. I don't call people who dive with an octopus sissies, but there are plenty of people who snort at me and call me a "cowboy" or "dangerous". I think you perform at a level consistent with what you feel is safe.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I wouldn't mention that because I wouldn't put a regulator in the nouth of an unconscious diver. If the regulator is in place, I would hold it there as I brought the diver to the surface. If it was not in place, I would not replace it, I'd just bring the diver up.


If the diver's having a convulsion due to ox tox, I don't think bringing him up is a very good idea.

Now, I can't say I've had first-hand experience with a toxing diver ... but all the training I've had with respect to treating an ox tox hit says you get a reg into the diver's mouth and keep them at depth till the convulsion stops. Otherwise, you've got a closed larynx and a terminal case of Boyle's Law on your hands ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[tomboyy]

There's no reason for a competent OOA diver to panic. Panic comes from fear. A competent diver is not afraid of being OOA because it's an extremely easy situation to manage.[/QUOTE]

Walter... your picking.... your statement makes sense In theory.. But problems, when they start piling on top of each other can make even a "competent" diver panic.

By your statement.. can I assume that you are a competent diver and will NEVER panic.

[Walter]

There was no mention of convulsing.

[Ardy]

I have been with a couple of young (male) divers who have gone OOA and you wouldnt want to give them your reg. The change from 'I'm in charge of everything dude' to 'I am going to die' is a short jump for them and at that point your survival is VERY secondary to thiers.

With one of them I had to pull the octo out of their mouth as I was OOA myself and I had got him to within 5m of the surface from 30m.

If you only dive with your buddy and he is reliable in a crisis cant see why you would want to carry one but in my situation where I dont know who my next buddy will be, it is essential.

[Reg Braithwaite]

am surprised that nobody has mentioned an underwater rescue situation where a diver is found unconscious due to O2 poisoning from being to deep for there nitrox mix. An octo would aid in this situation you could supply them with a constant appropriate gas mix on the way to the surface.

I personally didn't mention it because I was taught in my Rescue Diver class that if the diver does not have a regulator in their mouth, not to put one in their mouth. The instructor specifically stated that this was a change from previous treatment. That being said, we were discussing finding an unconscious diver with an unknown malady.

I have separately been looking at the "ox tox" problem, and while I am not qualified to go on at length about treatment and rescue, the scenario I expect is one where a diver switches to a rich mix as part of deco and toxes. I expect that such a diver has a buddy who is trained to handle this problem on the spot.

[bamamedic]

Hmmm....

Interesting discussion so far. Now, for my two cents :D

I was trained as a NAUI OW diver, which means that I learned how to buddy breathe as well as use an AAS, such as an octo. I felt fairly confident in my ability to buddy breathe from depth. However, I've never done it for longer than a few breaths..

When I had to buddy breathe with my instructor in a recent tech class (we were simulating the failure of one diver's deco bottle and buddy breathing off the other bottle), I thought that it would be easy...after all, I've already been taught to do this, right? Two breaths and pass it back...not too complicated.

However, I found myself rapidly on the wrong end of CO2 buildup, from taking short, shallow breaths (which I didn't even realize I was doing until my instructor pointed it out afterwards). My instructor was taking long, deep breaths, so it felt like I had to wait forever for the regulator to be passed back. It only took a minute or two for me to feel air starvation. I found myself practically clutching the regulator, and on the last occasion it was passed back to me, I felt so starved for air, that I failed to clear the regulator and choked a bit of water. The instructor quickly opened the valve on my deco bottle and handed me back my own reg.

I thought that I would be just fine buddy breathing for an extended period, but quickly found out that if you throw in a lil' anxiety and a too-rapid respiratory rate...things can quicky become uncomfortable.

I can imagine, that in the stress of an OOA situation, that it would require quite a bit of training and practice to be able to ascend without it turning into a panic situation. Not unrealistic for two buddies who dive together often, but it would have to be a very frequently practiced skill (and not just a quick few cycles, but a few minutes spent buddy breathing every few dives or so). Even my NAUI OW course mentioned that if buddy breathing was to be relied upon, it needs to be practiced often.

If two divers are willing to put that kind of effort into practicing buddy breathing, then more power to them! However, I'm more than happy to plan for the use of an octo...buddy breathing is one tool in my toolbox, and I feel confident that I can buddy breathe if I absolutely have to, but it's not a tool that I would consider optimal in an OOA situation, at least not for my diving.

[pittyyofool]

This is the way I learned to aid a O2 toxing diver (or any found non responsive diver breathing or not) back in gee about 2000 when nitrox was not commonly used. If standards have changed please let me know. It is good info to have. YouTube - toxing diver rescue (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnzUoQ8ajJU)

[NWGratefulDiver]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned an underwater rescue situation where a diver is found unconscious due to O2 poisoning from being to deep for there nitrox mix. An octo would aid in this situation you could supply them with a constant appropriate gas mix on the way to the surface. To me this is a strong argument and it has been failed to be mentioned. But this goes back to diving with the public, and my buddy and I only use gas mixes when we are planing a Deco dive. Then we are dressed in at least 1/2 HOG attire and have an octo.



I wouldn't mention that because I wouldn't put a regulator in the nouth of an unconscious diver. If the regulator is in place, I would hold it there as I brought the diver to the surface. If it was not in place, I would not replace it, I'd just bring the diver up.



If the diver's having a convulsion due to ox tox, I don't think bringing him up is a very good idea.

Now, I can't say I've had first-hand experience with a toxing diver ... but all the training I've had with respect to treating an ox tox hit says you get a reg into the diver's mouth and keep them at depth till the convulsion stops. Otherwise, you've got a closed larynx and a terminal case of Boyle's Law on your hands ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)


There was no mention of convulsing.



YouTube - toxing diver rescue (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnzUoQ8ajJU)

Gee ... look at the video ... what's that diver doing?

How ELSE would you know a diver is toxing?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Slonda828]

That video on a tox rescue is awesome. This made me realize two things:

-I need to practice this.

-I have never dove nitrox without an octo, but now that I realize how difficult this type of rescue would be, I am going to mandate an octo as part of my nitrox diving kit.

Would a second stage fit into the mouth of someone having a seizure?

[Walter]

Gee ... look at the video ... what's that diver doing?

How ELSE would you know a diver is toxing?

1. I have no idea what that diver is doing, I'm not able to watch videos from here.

2. Assuming the diver is in a convulsion and I had watched the video, it was posted after my post, not before.

3. You wouldn't know the diver was toxing, but you might make an educated guess if you knew the diver's mix (should be on the tank).

4. It doesn't matter if you know if the diver is toxing or not, the procedure is the same for an unconscious diver.

5. The question was about an unconscious diver, not about a convulsing diver. If he meant a convulsing diver, he should have said "convulsing." It's not reasonable to assume anyone will refer to a person having a seizure as "unconscious."

[NWGratefulDiver]

That video on a tox rescue is awesome. This made me realize two things:

-I need to practice this.

-I have never dove nitrox without an octo, but now that I realize how difficult this type of rescue would be, I am going to mandate an octo as part of my nitrox diving kit.

Would a second stage fit into the mouth of someone having a seizure?

Even in practice it's a lot more difficult than it looks in the video. I'm not certain, but I believe that's Andrew Georgitsis doing the rescue in the video. He has a way of making even the most difficult skills look easy.

Realistically, there's little risk of a tox to a recreational diver ... especially those who do the routine things like analyze their own mix and respect their MOD limit. But there's still enough risk to make the skill worth knowing ... there have been cases of someone toxing at less than the recommended PPO2.

Practice is definitely recommended ... it's difficult to hold someone at a constant depth for the minute or so it would take the seizure to pass, especially if that person's in doubles and carrying deco bottles (the highest risk of seizure is to the diver carrying multiple deco bottles who inadvertantly grabs the wrong reg and starts breathing a mix that's too rich for the depth).

Again, I've never had to do this for real (thank God) ... but I've had to perform it as a skill for a few different classes now, plus I teach this as part of my Rescue class. Where I dive it's a good skill for even recreationally-trained divers because Puget Sound gets so crazy deep so fast that it's common for recreational divers, tech divers on OC, and rebreather divers to be diving the same places at the same time. So ... like Forrest Gump's mama used to say ... you never know what you're gonna get.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Deefstes]

Just curious, and sorry if I'm hijacking the thread, but how quickly would a diver start toxing if he breaths the wrong gas? I mean, if a diver grabs the wrong reg and starts breathing high PPO2, will he start toxing after the first breath or how long would it take? Also, is it something that you can't see coming until you're toxing?

[NWGratefulDiver]

Just curious, and sorry if I'm hijacking the thread, but how quickly would a diver start toxing if he breaths the wrong gas? I mean, if a diver grabs the wrong reg and starts breathing high PPO2, will he start toxing after the first breath or how long would it take? Also, is it something that you can't see coming until you're toxing?

Like any other diving malady, the risks are variable and one diver may go completely symptom-free under the exact same circumstances that another diver would tox. There is no "safe" line ... rather there's this large "gray" area where the risks go up or down proportional to depth and time of exposure.

As for symptoms ... we use this acronym CONventid ... which stands for

convulsions
visual disturbances
ears (ringing)
nausea
twitching
irritability
dizziness


As you can see from the list, most of those wouldn't be things your buddy would notice ... but you might notice yourself.

You might also notice that those same symptoms would be difficult to diagnose as an ox tox because they're so similar to symptoms of DCI ... or for that matter, symptoms of old age or personality.

Most times it's better to simply listen to that little voice in your head that tells you ... if you're feeling any of those things ... that it'd be a great idea to start heading to a shallower depth.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[boulderjohn]

The video does indeed show Andrew Georgitsis. I have also read a description he wrote of an actual toxing diver rescue. It was quite interesting. I drew some assumptions from it that were not stated.

The diver in question had been responsible for the fills for the dive and had mistakenly added O2 instead of Helium to his tanks, and he did not analyze prior to the dive. A tox episode usually begins with an aura, with some of the symptoms Bob described above. This diver must have realized what was happening at this point (my guess) because he signalled to Andrew that he wanted to share air as he removed his regulator from his mouth.

He immediately went into the tonic-clonic part of the seizure, which is unmistakeable. Andrew donated his regulator and forced it into his mouth. The tonic-clonic phase lasted a couple of minutes, at which time no attempt to ascend was made. When the diver went into the sleep phase of the seizure, the ascent was started. A second tonic/clonic phase started, again lasting several minutes. Again the ascent was halted until the sleep phase began again. They surfaced successfully, and the diver had no ill effects afterwards.

Given the amount of time all this took, I concluded that the diver must have been breathing during the ascents, in which case it is nice that he had a regulator in his mouth. It is not clear how long these ascents took, but it was clearly long enough to cause problems otherwise.

I know the normally accepted procedure is not to replace a regulator for an unconscious diver, but based on what I read, I think I would try it for a toxing diver.

[Reg Braithwaite]

Earlier in this thread I made a statement earlier about my PADI Rescue Diver Training. I wish to be as specific as possible about my recollection:

I was taught an "Unresponsive Diver at Depth" scenario which involves finding a diver at depth where you specifically do not know what has transpired and the diver is not moving. The obvious case is where you conduct a search for a missing diver and come upon the victim under water. No discussion was made of what to do if encountering a convulsing diver and how that might be handled differently.

While I have read certain things about toxing divers and watched UTD's video showing the toxing diver rescue scenario, I am not trained in the subject and all I was trying to say is that if you are asking me what to do about an unresponsive diver with their regulator out of their mouth, I answer I will try to conduct the rescue as I have been trained. Part of that training was to bring them to the surface immediately and refrain from replacing their regulator or forcing your own regulator into their mouth during the ascent.

If you say, "Yes, but what if the diver is suffering from oxygen toxicity?" I would then say I am not trained to handle this scenario. So my statement about not giving a regulator to an unconscious diver only applies to the scenarios taught to me in my PADI Rescue Diver course.

Sorry for the long-winded clarification, but I am very leery of someone reading what I wrote and misapplying it.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Earlier in this thread I made a statement earlier about my PADI Rescue Diver Training. I wish to be as specific as possible about my recollection:

I was taught an "Unresponsive Diver at Depth" scenario which involves finding a diver at depth where you specifically do not know what has transpired and the diver is not moving. The obvious case is where you conduct a search for a missing diver and come upon the victim under water. No discussion was made of what to do if encountering a convulsing diver and how that might be handled differently.

While I have read certain things about toxing divers and watched UTD's video showing the toxing diver rescue scenario, I am not trained in the subject and all I was trying to say is that if you are asking me what to do about an unresponsive diver with their regulator out of their mouth, I answer I will try to conduct the rescue as I have been trained. Part of that training was to bring them to the surface immediately and refrain from replacing their regulator or forcing your own regulator into their mouth during the ascent.

If you say, "Yes, but what if the diver is suffering from oxygen toxicity?" I would then say I am not trained to handle this scenario. So my statement about not giving a regulator to an unconscious diver only applies to the scenarios taught to me in my PADI Rescue Diver course.

Sorry for the long-winded clarification, but I am very leery of someone reading what I wrote and misapplying it.

NAUI teaches the same thing ... the difference being that NAUI allows me to add the toxing diver skills and scenario to the standard Rescue training.

ALWAYS follow your training ... among other things, it's your liability lifeline in the event things don't go well ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Peter Guy]

One of the things about the toxed diver scenario that has intrigued me relates to the high PPO2 in the lungs/bloodstream of the diver and whether that would have a tendency to protect the diver from anoxic (word?) injury. That is, since the issue is there is too much O2 in the diver's body, would that not keep the heart beating and bringing O2 enriched blood to the brain for a significantly longer time than if the diver just had a PPO2 of .21 (i.e., one ATA) at the time of the toxing and tonic state?

I don't know the answer -- I just have the question.

[pittyyofool]

So from what I can tell the non responsive diver rescue procedures changed or I have a rusty memory of my training 10yr ago.
Is it currently recommended that a rescuer NOT supply a non responsive diver with a clean fresh gas supply, unless they are 100% sure that the issue on hand is O2 tox?

If yes, is that one more reason that an octo is an unneeded accessory when diving with people that are competent in buddy breathing?

[NWGratefulDiver]

So from what I can tell the non responsive diver rescue procedures changed or I have a rusty memory of my training 10yr ago.
Is it currently recommended that a rescuer NOT supply a non responsive diver with a clean fresh gas supply, unless they are 100% sure that the issue on hand is O2 tox?

If yes, is that one more reason that an octo is an unneeded accessory when diving with people that are competent in buddy breathing?

NAUI's current position for recreational rescue is that if a non-responsive diver's reg is in their mouth, keep it in. If it's out, leave it out and concentrate on getting the diver to the surface as expeditiously as possible.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[TSandM]

In response to Peter Guy's question: Yes, the fact that the diver was breathing an elevated ppO2 prior to convulsion DOES buy additional useful neurologic time. In medicine, if we are going to place a breathing tube, we have to paralyze the patient to do it, which means that, while we are looking and placing the tube, the patient is not breathing. We give patients 100% oxygen to breathe before intubating them, because the additional oxygen in their system will buy us several more minutes of safe time to try to get the tube placed -- up to 8 minutes or more, in someone at normal body temperature and with normal body habitus. Given that many divers will have slightly low core body temperatures as well (and every degree is neuroprotective to some extent) you have a surprising amount of time to retrieve a diver and get them to the surface and still have a good likelihood of neurologic function.

This is, of course, no longer true if circulation has also ceased. But that will not be the case in someone who has toxed, until they drown.

[Doc Intrepid]

"ALWAYS follow your training ... among other things, it's your liability lifeline in the event things don't go well"To bring the thread back to it's orginal topic of "is a safe second really necessary", IMHO Bob's point is under-represented in this thread.

You may not need a safe second in your routine diving, so long as your routine diving remains routine.

"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."

If you are ever unfortunate enough to be involved in a diving incident that encompasses a fatality or significant injury; and are caught up in post-incident litigation; and it comes out that you did not have a secondary regulator because you chose not to use one (even though using one is a norm in modern training); and that fact is portrayed successfully as a proximate cause for the harm that occurred; so you are judged partially liable; you may experience unpleasant side effects. These side effects may include intercourse with insurance companies. You may not be on top. You may not like it much.

Given the fact that a safe second is often more effective and efficient in a number of non-routine circumstances (than buddy breathing), plus the fact that non-routine circumstances are seldom pleasant and often high-anxiety in general, having one available is a pretty inexpensive way of increasing your chances of successfully dealing with any number of crises that you may encounter.

FWIW.

Doc

[TS_eXpeed]

I'm not sure if it is for the reason of minimizing hoses/drag, but for anyone in that scenario, I really like the safety seconds that are integrated with your low pressure inflator.

[rstofer]

I'm not sure if it is for the reason of minimizing hoses/drag, but for anyone in that scenario, I really like the safety seconds that are integrated with your low pressure inflator.

Yup! I had one when I was diving in warm water and it is still on my BC. I am using a BP/W so the BC will stay in storage.

Consider the cold water wetsuit diver and how they might donate their long hose primary. Now they have to control their buoyancy during the ascent from the same device they are using to breathe. It's a bit of task loading to take the regulator out of your mouth, raise it above your shoulder and vent the BC. Maybe you don't have to take it out of your mouth, maybe you do.

Worse yet, consider trying to do that while you are trying to rescue your buddy and control the ascent of both divers. Or, your primary has failed, you are breathing your integrated device while your buddy tries to rescue you and control your ascent. Not all BCs have a dump valve on the upper right of the chest.

I liked my Air II device. It worked well, never free-flowed, breathed ok at 113' but it never occurred to me that when I started diving in cold water the thing would be a liability. I think I have seen the light!

Richard

[pittyyofool]

I'm not sure if it is for the reason of minimizing hoses/drag, but for anyone in that scenario, I really like the safety seconds that are integrated with your low pressure inflator.

Yes, the main reason is eliminating hose and drag, as i love to dive in kelp forests thicker than the amazon. (i only know of 3 patties this thick in so.cal) Kelp that has to be pushed threw has a way of catching on EVERYTHING! I am very tucked up neat when I dive and like being a minimalist. What I don't absolutely need is left on the boat because the chances of it just being in the way diving are high. I am so particular as to mount my knife on the inside of my harness cumberbun with the Handel towards my feet, and my computer is belly mounted under a Velcro flap. I have made nylon straps to go between my 1st stage and my shoulder D-rings to limit my valve getting hooked. If it gets caught on kelp that is 1 to many times and something needs to change. A HOG rig would be nothing but a constant fuss and tangle in this environment.

integrated low pressure inflator seconds- read the original post...

[nadwidny]

I've been the recipient in OOA situations for real. Once on "octopus" and a few years later with buddy breathing. Unless you're solo, there really is no valid argument for not diving with a backup reg.

[Slonda828]

A HOG rig would be nothing but a constant fuss and tangle in this environment.



I have been experiencing this as well with my river diving. I may go to a j valve and just one second stage for my 20 foot deep river dives. I used to love my long hose until I started river diving. I was towing a float and some salvage last weekend and the current carried me into a log, which fouled me, my girlfriend, my salvage, and my float all at the same time. It's a good thing I'm patient. I think I can keep the BP/W, but I may have to ditch the long hose for riverine use. I had to go to my backup and completely unroute all 7 freaking feet of that hose to get out of that tangle. The stupid snap link on the primary second stage was so tangled I thought I was going to have to cut it, but thankfully I worked around it.

[pittyyofool]

If it were me I would Keep a pressure gauge on the regs even with a J-valve. I have done a few shallow vintage dives with my dads circa 1965 gear with no spg. I thought, there is a J- i don't need to put a spg on and ruin the vibe... well, on one of the dives the J- accidentally was knocked open, when it got hard to suck I reached back to flip the switch and it was already flipped.
So I had to do an ESA form 25ft. All worked out well I lived. You should be fine diving with no spg in 20ft of water, just be prepared to do a few ESA's. Practice them so it is not a surprise when you have to do one.

[rstofer]

If it were me I would Keep a pressure gauge on the regs even with a J-valve. I have done a few shallow vintage dives with my dads circa 1965 gear with no spg. I thought, there is a J- i don't need to put a spg on and ruin the vibe... well, on one of the dives the J- accidentally was knocked open, when it got hard to suck I reached back to flip the switch and it was already flipped.
So I had to do an ESA form 25ft. All worked out well I lived. You should be fine diving with no spg in 20ft of water, just be prepared to do a few ESA's. Practice them so it is not a surprise when you have to do one.

There are both J and K valves that have a HP port for an SPG. Given the SPG, the J function is redundant so I am buying the K versions when I find them.

But none of this solves the octo problem for my DW Mistral. This is a single stage regulator and there is no IP for an octo or power inflator. I'm not sure what I'll do about this. Probably keep the dives shallow and watch my buddy's SPG like a hawk.

Richard

[Brewski]

Why use an Octo?
besides the intended reason to make it easier to share air in an emergency.
You can use it yourself if your own reg is somehow inoperative, as illustrated by an earlier post.
Also I know of a buddy team (my cousin and his wife) who's SAC rates are so different, that they routinely share air during the dive to even out their gas so they aren't limited by one divers ability to consume air faster than the others.

[captain]

If it were me I would Keep a pressure gauge on the regs even with a J-valve. I have done a few shallow vintage dives with my dads circa 1965 gear with no spg. I thought, there is a J- i don't need to put a spg on and ruin the vibe... well, on one of the dives the J- accidentally was knocked open, when it got hard to suck I reached back to flip the switch and it was already flipped.
So I had to do an ESA form 25ft. All worked out well I lived. You should be fine diving with no spg in 20ft of water, just be prepared to do a few ESA's. Practice them so it is not a surprise when you have to do one.

Assming the J valve works which they do you need to check that it is in the up position just as often as you check an SPG. It is not a set and forget device. You should also have a ballpark idea how long your air will last at depth. Depending on the J valve sometimes you can tell if it is in or out of the reserve position by the sound during inhalation.

[Walter]

If you are ever unfortunate enough to be involved in a diving incident that encompasses a fatality or significant injury; and are caught up in post-incident litigation; and it comes out that you did not have a secondary regulator because you chose not to use one (even though using one is a norm in modern training); and that fact is portrayed successfully as a proximate cause for the harm that occurred; so you are judged partially liable; you may experience unpleasant side effects. These side effects may include intercourse with insurance companies. You may not be on top. You may not like it much.

I completely agree if you are an instructor and you are teaching and you were teaching that particular diver. You did not fullfill your duty of care. On the other hand, if you are not an instructor or you are an instructor, but that diver was not currently under instruction from you, there is no obligation to attempt a rescue. The proximate cause for the harm that occurred is the diver ran out of air. It might be shown he never learned to buddy breathe. That might be a "proximate cause for the harm that occurred." If so, it goes back to the agency through which he was certified for not requiring the training. The proximate cause for the harm that occurred cannot be someone under no obligation to the diver not taking responsibility for that diver's lack of training and lack of ability to monitor his air supply. Next folks will be claiming it's my fault because I didn't have enough air to bring an OOA air hog to the surface. Double 131s would have done the trick. This is just silly.

[muddiver]

I have been experiencing this as well with my river diving. I may go to a j valve and just one second stage for my 20 foot deep river dives. I used to love my long hose until I started river diving. I was towing a float and some salvage last weekend and the current carried me into a log, which fouled me, my girlfriend, my salvage, and my float all at the same time. It's a good thing I'm patient. I think I can keep the BP/W, but I may have to ditch the long hose for riverine use. I had to go to my backup and completely unroute all 7 freaking feet of that hose to get out of that tangle. The stupid snap link on the primary second stage was so tangled I thought I was going to have to cut it, but thankfully I worked around it.

This is a great example of why "one size fits all" thechniques of setting up gear and diving procedures do not always work in all situations. As you have found out, cave diving techniques do not necessarily apply well to river and high entanglement diving situations.

Personally I think the whole long hose set-up has been taken totally out of context from the double tank cave diving relm. If you are not diving doubles you really don't need such a long hose to share breathing gas.

[Peter Guy]

Walter wrote
The proximate cause for the harm that occurred cannot be someone under no obligation to the diver not taking responsibility for that diver's lack of training and lack of ability to monitor his air supply. Walter, as much as I respect your diving experience and knowledge, as I wrote on another thread, if you want to give legal opinions, go to Law School and suffer like the rest of us.

Under the OP's original scenario, he has accepted the obligation to donate by initiating buddy breathing. Once you have accepted the obligation, you then DO HAVE to "do it right" (I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist!) under the current standards within "the industry." And I believe the current standard is to use a "safe second" rather than buddy breathe. So, IF you have opted to buddy breathe instead of use an octo, you may have increased your liability.

Also, please do not forget, the "industry standard" is that you dive with a buddy and you owe your buddy the obligation of being a "good buddy" which probably means being able to donate a working reg rather than buddy breathe. (See Rasmussen v. Bendotti)

[NWGratefulDiver]

I completely agree if you are an instructor and you are teaching and you were teaching that particular diver. You did not fullfill your duty of care. On the other hand, if you are not an instructor or you are an instructor, but that diver was not currently under instruction from you, there is no obligation to attempt a rescue. The proximate cause for the harm that occurred is the diver ran out of air. It might be shown he never learned to buddy breathe. That might be a "proximate cause for the harm that occurred." If so, it goes back to the agency through which he was certified for not requiring the training. The proximate cause for the harm that occurred cannot be someone under no obligation to the diver not taking responsibility for that diver's lack of training and lack of ability to monitor his air supply. Next folks will be claiming it's my fault because I didn't have enough air to bring an OOA air hog to the surface. Double 131s would have done the trick. This is just silly.
Gotta agree with Peter on this one (and I did check with an attorney at one point a few years back when I started teaching this stuff).

As a non-professional diver you are under no obligation to help anyone. However, once you attempt to help, you have ASSUMED a duty. The standard of care for that duty will be determined by your actions and your level of training.

If you were trained to use a safe second, you will be held to that standard.

The (illogical) conclusion is that if you're diving without one, you're better off ... from a liability standpoint ... swimming away from the scene rather than attempting to buddy-breathe that diver to the surface.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Walter]

if you want to give legal opinions, go to Law School and suffer like the rest of us.

It's a personal opinion. I've never claimed to be qualified to give a legal opinion. If I were qualified to give legal opinions, I wouldn't open myself up to the liability of giving them willy nilly on the internet.


Under the OP's original scenario, he has accepted the obligation to donate by initiating buddy breathing. Once you have accepted the obligation, you then DO HAVE to "do it right" (I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist!) under the current standards within "the industry."

That's my understanding as well. OOA diver gets 4 breaths then passes it back to the donating diver who takes 2, pass back to OOA diver who takes 2. Both divers keep a firm grip on the regulator at all times. The other hand grabs the BC of the other diver, letting go as necessary to adjust buoyancy, etc. Whem both divers are comfortable and the exchanges are going smoothly, they start a slow ascent, stopping at 15 feet if the air suppy permits.


I believe the current standard is to use a "safe second" rather than buddy breathe. So, IF you have opted to buddy breathe instead of use an octo, you may have increased your liability.

I don't believe you'll be able to sell that one to a jury. I didn't have an octo, so I went with the only option available - buddy breathing. I did it by the book. If he wasn't qualified to buddy breathe, he should have asked for assistance from his buddy who had (I'm guessing) an octo. Buddy breathing has been a standard of training for decades.


See Rasmussen v. Bendotti

Interesting reading. It only applies to buddies, not to strangers, it doesn't involve buddy breathing (or sharing air in any manner) and the Rasmussens lost (although on a point that doesn't apply in the hypothetical case we are discussing). I think (personal opinion, not legal opinion) applying this case would be a big stretch.

[Doc Intrepid]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, Walter, but I don't believe that buddy breathing has been 'a standard of training' for the majority of scuba instructors for at least the past decade. Whether it should be, of course, is a different matter.

IMHO whether a diver uses a safe second or not is, like most other issues, a decision weighing potential utility against inconvenience or cost.

Diving in thick kelp aside, in most cases I suspect that offering a safe second stage to another OOA diver is a better option than buddy breathing, for various reasons. Liability is only one of them.

Regards,

Doc

[Gombessa]

It's a personal opinion. I've never claimed to be qualified to give a legal opinion.

Well, to be fair; proximate cause, duty of care...if you're bandying about legal terms of art willy-nilly, it sure sounds like you're making a legal analysis. You can say after the fact that it was just a personal opinion, but by the same token Peter's admonition was appropriate under the circumstances.


I didn't have an octo, so I went with the only option available - buddy breathing. I did it by the book. If he wasn't qualified to buddy breathe, he should have asked for assistance from his buddy who had (I'm guessing) an octo.

This was my thought as well; I got the impression that Peter's scenario applied more for a person who had an octo, and opted for a buddy breathe rescue instead. If you have no duty to dive with an octo for the benefit of strangers, I imagine the analysis would be different (though the question of "why" you did so would probably be brought up as a separate issue).

[Teamcasa]

Why use an Octo?
Also I know of a buddy team (my cousin and his wife) who's SAC rates are so different, that they routinely share air during the dive to even out their gas so they aren't limited by one divers ability to consume air faster than the others.

My wife and I do this when are renting tanks.

Having to do buddy breathing in the 70's, I can tell you first hand that using an Octo is much easier. Sometimes, new stuff is actually better stuff, why not take advantge of it.;)

[Kingpatzer]

Go ahead, do what you like.

Make sure you can live with yourself when you come upon another diver in distress who is already starting to panic and can't manage to control themselves well enough to buddy breath. If it does happen, however unlikely, can you live with knowing that your refusal to abide by community standards likely cost someone their life?

If so, go for it.

But I pray no one ever has to count on you to help them.

[Doc Intrepid]

"Yes, the main reason is eliminating hose and drag, as i love to dive in kelp forests thicker than the amazon. (i only know of 3 patties this thick in so.cal) Kelp that has to be pushed threw has a way of catching on EVERYTHING! I am very tucked up neat when I dive and like being a minimalist. What I don't absolutely need is left on the boat because the chances of it just being in the way diving are high. I am so particular as to mount my knife on the inside of my harness cumberbun with the Handel towards my feet, and my computer is belly mounted under a Velcro flap. I have made nylon straps to go between my 1st stage and my shoulder D-rings to limit my valve getting hooked. If it gets caught on kelp that is 1 to many times and something needs to change. A HOG rig would be nothing but a constant fuss and tangle in this environment."If this is your situation, you might want to PM Nemrod and ask him to send you a photo of his rig. He uses an 'alternate air source' which is not a 2nd second stage - its about as low profile as anything I've ever seen. Nemrod has posted photos of his rig in different threads on the board. It may work out well for you as an alternative to buddy breathing (sounds like buddy breathing in kelp that thick might present its own set of challenges...). OTOH, sounds like ANY sort of emergency response in kelp that thick could get exciting!

;)

[captain]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, Walter, but I don't believe that buddy breathing has been 'a standard of training' for the majority of scuba instructors for at least the past decade. Whether it should be, of course, is a different matter.

IMHO whether a diver uses a safe second or not is, like most other issues, a decision weighing potential utility against inconvenience or cost.

Diving in thick kelp aside, in most cases I suspect that offering a safe second stage to another OOA diver is a better option than buddy breathing, for various reasons. Liability is only one of them.

Regards,

Doc

If the standard of training now is the octo then I was never trained in its use since my training was in an era when buddy breathing was the standard so legal logic (oxymoron) would say I would be in violation of my training if I offered an OOA diver an octo and within my training if I initiated buddy breathing.

[Walter]

If the standard of training now is the octo then I was never trained in its use since my training was in an era when buddy breathing was the standard so legal logic (oxymoron) would say I would be in violation of my training if I offered an OOA diver an octo and within my training if I initiated buddy breathing.

I agree with you, but I think others might say it's your responsibility to get training in octo use to make up for the agencies' lowering of standards. It's never an agency's fault.

[Kingpatzer]

I'd guess that were it to become a legal question, a jury would be easily led to believe that proper use of an octo is so mind-numbingly obvious to an experienced diver that lack of specific training is not an acceptable excuse, and that keeping up with common practices is a responsibility of a certified diver.

Regardless of if that's the case or not, I would be jurors would agree to such a premise.

[Slonda828]

Go ahead, do what you like.

Make sure you can live with yourself when you come upon another diver in distress who is already starting to panic and can't manage to control themselves well enough to buddy breath. If it does happen, however unlikely, can you live with knowing that your refusal to abide by community standards likely cost someone their life?

If so, go for it.

But I pray no one ever has to count on you to help them.

Ooooh....thanks for the warning man, I was totally unaware that this could happen until you came along, pulled you smaller than average opinion out, and flopped it on the thread. Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Do you have any others? A stitch in time saves nine maybe?

Seriously though, when we dive without octos, we dive in our own group. If some random picked a dive buddy who is inept and leaves him, than maybe he should be more worried about whom he dives with than the fact that my friends and I do not have octos.

Can you live with the fact that I do not care if you care if I dive without an octo? :rofl3:

[wetbehindthegears]

I was told once to stay away from a diver ( who had no octo) because he wouldn't help me if I got in trouble

I carry an integrated inflator/octo, it is held close to my body with a retractable keeper...no bashing problems
I also carry a pony, which I can quickly detatch and hand to my buddy if they need it ( so there is no problem with them grabbing my reg)
carry one if you want...don't carry one if you don't want to...I don't care as you are not my buddy

[Reg Braithwaite]

ake sure you can live with yourself when you come upon another diver in distress who is already starting to panic and can't manage to control themselves well enough to buddy breath. If it does happen, however unlikely, can you live with knowing that your refusal to abide by community standards likely cost someone their life?

Whoa, Nelly!

I hear you, and I have made the personal choice to make myself as safe as possible given my paucity of experience. For example, I completed my Rescue Diver coursework and confined water training and will be doing the open water dives in a few weeks when the season gets underway here.

And honestly, I would prefer that as many people as possible carry alternate air sources, practice good gas management, and so forth. The sea would be a better place and lives would be saved.

But I do stop short of suggesting it is a matter of conscience. A matter of choice, perhaps. But rather than admonish those who do not choose to be roving rescue divers, I would prefer to praise those who go above and beyond to help others.

p.s. I want to close with something else. I don't think it's the main point of what you were trying to say, I think you were using it as an example. But you brought up the possibility of coming across a diver who needs air but who is panicking and cannot buddy breathe.

Speaking as a new diver with no actual rescue experience, I'm not sure I could save that person without risking my own life. Sure, I can donate my primary and breathe off my necklaced alternate. But will this person struggle and tear my mask off or rip my secondary from my mouth? Will they rocket to the surface and expose me to getting bent or an embolism?

While clearly less than "optimal" in an emergecy, the divers on this thread advocating a single air source do have a means of sharing air with a properly trained and non-panicking diver. It's not clear to me that a diver who is improperly trained and/or panicking can be saved without risking the rescuer's life with or without a secondary air source.

Speaking for myself, I think the single greatest thing anyone can do to save another diver's life is to encourage them to be a safe diver.

[Reg Braithwaite]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, Walter, but I don't believe that buddy breathing has been 'a standard of training' for the majority of scuba instructors for at least the past decade. Whether it should be, of course, is a different matter.

I was required to demonstrate buddy breathing as part of my PADI OW confined water training and my PADI Confined Water Rescue Diver training. It was not part of my IANTD Recreational Trimix course, but I can't speak to their OW curriculum.

[pittyyofool]

I was told once to stay away from a diver ( who had no octo) because he wouldn't help me if I got in trouble

I carry an integrated inflator/octo, it is held close to my body with a retractable keeper...no bashing problems
I also carry a pony, which I can quickly detatch and hand to my buddy if they need it ( so there is no problem with them grabbing my reg)
carry one if you want...don't carry one if you don't want to...I don't care as you are not my buddy

It Is not that I will not offer to help, in fact I will do everything in my power to get an OOA diver to the surface. Buddy breathing just might be a part of that. Or If we are shallow enough (20ft), I might let the OOA diver keep my primary while I ascend as if it were an ESA. Don't outcast me because I prefer not to dive with an octo, I have no problem putting on an octo If my buddy at the time would like me to. If I happen to stumble across an OOA stranger (when diving in a remote area) I will get them to the surface alive. If they don't give my reg back when it is time, they might not be happy that I used force to take command of the situation, but at least they live another day.

[pittyyofool]

My dads buddy Jim learned to dive during high school in the mid 50's (he thinks 1956). Buddy breathing was not included in the course curriculum because they were all using double hose regs that were very hard to clear if flooded. You had to have a full breath to clear the exhaust. This makes buddy breathing almost impossible, not to mention how up close and personal you would have to get.
So according to all of this legal liability stuff and relying on your training. Since Jim was never officially trained in buddy breathing (edit: with a single hose), the use of an octo, or to use a single hose regulator for that matter. Would he legally be better off to Flee the scene of an OOA situation, and leave the "struggling" diver to fend for them self? Because he has never been trained to operate gear he is currently using.

[Walter]

I'd guess that were it to become a legal question, a jury would be easily led to believe that proper use of an octo is so mind-numbingly obvious to an experienced diver that lack of specific training is not an acceptable excuse

The same case can be made for buddy breathing, breathe, pass it back, breathe pass it back. Buddy breathing is extremely easy. Someone farm animal stupid could get it.


Buddy breathing was not included in the course curriculum because they were all using double hose regs that were very hard to clear if flooded. You had to have a full breath to clear the exhaust. This makes buddy breathing almost impossible, not to mention how up close and personal you would have to get.

It sounds like your dad's buddy, Jim, either never really learned how to dive with a double hose or has fortton what he learned and is now talking through his butt. It's a tad harder to buddy breathe with a double hose, but not "almost impossible." A flooded double hose is not all that hard to clear and it's not all that hard to prevent it from flooding in the first place. As for being up close and personal, true, but then so is buddy breathing with a single hose. Even buddy breathing with a double hose is pretty easy.

[Slonda828]

I have to agree with Walter. If you need to use a double hose regulator for buddy breathing, you can either pass it in the heads up position and blast clear it, or just keep the mouthpiece down when you pass it and get a tiny bit of water in your mouth. Alternatively, you can buddy breath with the donor on his left side (receiver on their right side) so that the exhalation hose is lower than the mouthpiece. This method is good in that the cage valves facilitate the regulator clearing itself. I've practiced both, and it's not hard. My girlfriend learned to do it, and she only has 15 dives.

[captain]

My dads buddy Jim learned to dive during high school in the mid 50's (he thinks 1956). Buddy breathing was not included in the course curriculum because they were all using double hose regs that were very hard to clear if flooded. You had to have a full breath to clear the exhaust. This makes buddy breathing almost impossible, not to mention how up close and personal you would have to get.
So according to all of this legal liability stuff and relying on your training. Since Jim was never officially trained in buddy breathing, the use of an octo, or to use a single hose regulator for that matter. He would legally be better off to Flee the scene of an OOA situation, and leave the "struggling" diver to fend for them self. Because he has never been trained to operate gear he is currently using.

Buddy breathing with a double hose is not that difficult just different. Just watch a few Sea Hunt videos.

[captain]

My dads buddy Jim learned to dive during high school in the mid 50's (he thinks 1956). Buddy breathing was not included in the course curriculum because they were all using double hose regs that were very hard to clear if flooded. You had to have a full breath to clear the exhaust. This makes buddy breathing almost impossible, not to mention how up close and personal you would have to get.
So according to all of this legal liability stuff and relying on your training. Since Jim was never officially trained in buddy breathing, the use of an octo, or to use a single hose regulator for that matter. He would legally be better off to Flee the scene of an OOA situation, and leave the "struggling" diver to fend for them self. Because he has never been trained to operate gear he is currently using.

Buddy breathing with a double hose is not that difficult just different. Just watch a few Sea Hunt videos.

[tomboyy]

The same case can be made for buddy breathing, breathe, pass it back, breathe pass it back. Buddy breathing is extremely easy. Someone farm animal stupid could get it.

Breath , breath , pass


I'm pretty sure that last sentence is fragmented :D

[scubadude79]

Why did they actually turn off the valve to your tank, why not just pretend that it is not working and then do the buddy breathing exercise?
Sounds kind of risky for an OW check out to turn off a working tank at depth. What happens if the instructors reg has a problem.

Maybe I misunderstood but, I wouldn't be turning off a newbies tank at depth anytime! :O

[pittyyofool]

He might me talking out of his butt, I have no clue, but I am not going to call him a lier I was not around 53 years ago much less learning to dive, or breathed from an old double hose. All I Know Is what he has told me. He learned from a sport diver mag approved instructor. He may have learnde to double hose buddy breath, or not. It still does not change the legal aspect of things, He was never formally trained in any rescue procedures or to use the single hose equipment he is currently using. (BTW: he does carry an octo)
The question still stands,according to all of this legal liability stuff and relying on your training. Since Jim was never officially trained in buddy breathing (with a single hose), the use of an octo, or to use a single hose regulator for that matter. Would he legally be better off to Flee the scene of an OOA situation, and leave the "struggling" diver to fend for them self? Because he has never been formally trained to operate gear he is currently using.

[diver_pirate]

If your buddy has an OOA problem he's going to take yours (panicked) whether or not your using it. The octo gives you a spare.
DP

[scubadude79]

Absolutely, it is needed!
Let me think, free flow or frozen reg and you cant get your buddies attention at say 60 feet.
Also, have you tried to make a safe ascent from that depth or deeper while buddy breathing.
That is a pain in the rear. I did it from 20 feet just to see what it was like while having a safety line and I was soooo glad when it was over.
All it takes is for one slip up and then poof, you need to be rescued.

What is better, losing 80 bucks to a piece of gear that you may never need or your life.
Pretty easy decision.:confused:

[Thalassamania]

[/quote]

My dads buddy Jim learned to dive during high school in the mid 50's (he thinks 1956).
I too learned to dive in 1956, organized classes were rather rare so armed with two recently purchased tanks, two regulators, and a copy of the Science of Skin and Scuba my dad and I learned how to use scuba.


Buddy breathing not included in the course curriculum

Buddy breathing was in the book, we learned how to do it and practiced it on every dive.


because they were all using double hose regs that were very hard to clear if flooded. You had to have a full breath to clear the exhaust. This makes buddy breathing almost impossible, not to mention how up close and personal you would have to get.
False, as previously noted.


So according to all of this legal liability stuff and relying on your training. Since Jim was never officially trained in buddy breathing, the use of an octo, or to use a single hose regulator for that matter. He would legally be better off to Flee the scene of an OOA situation, and leave the "struggling" diver to fend for them self. Because he has never been trained to operate gear he is currently using.That's a steaming pile of horse pucky.

[Kingpatzer]

The same case can be made for buddy breathing, breathe, pass it back, breathe pass it back. Buddy breathing is extremely easy. Someone farm animal stupid could get it.


I don't think that is so.

I've seen plenty of folks who struggle with buddy breathing in a pool the first few times they try it. It's pretty easy to get on the wrong side of the C02 curve. Learning to do it "on the fly" when in a real emergency isn't a likely reality. I've never seen any one capable of breathing off of one regulator find it difficult to breath off of another nearly identical reg.

[Thalassamania]

I don't think that is so.

I've seen plenty of folks who struggle with buddy breathing in a pool the first few times they try it. It's pretty easy to get on the wrong side of the C02 curve. Learning to do it "on the fly" when in a real emergency isn't a likely reality. I've never seen any one capable of breathing off of one regulator find it difficult to breath off of another nearly identical reg.No question that an auxiliary is easier, but I can guarantee that divers can learn to buddy breathe in class, can practice in the field and can effectively use the skill in a real emergency (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4224900-post19.html).

[pittyyofool]

Originally Posted by Walter View Post
The same case can be made for buddy breathing, breathe, pass it back, breathe pass it back. Buddy breathing is extremely easy. Someone farm animal stupid could get it.


I don't think that is so.

I've seen plenty of folks who struggle with buddy breathing in a pool the first few times they try it. It's pretty easy to get on the wrong side of the C02 curve. Learning to do it "on the fly" when in a real emergency isn't a likely reality. I've never seen any one capable of breathing off of one regulator find it difficult to breath off of another nearly identical reg.

So are you saying that there are smarter farm animals than divers? with the lax requirements of some training agencies now days, I might agree.

[Walter]

So are you saying that there are smarter farm animals than divers?

I'm not sure which one of us you're addressing, but anyone who can't learn to buddy breathe pretty easily isn't someone who, in my opinion, is smart enough to dive in any conditions.

[nadwidny]

So are you saying that there are smarter farm animals than divers? ....

This whole thread reminds me of another phrase from the same original source. Something about "beyond the pale".

Oh, and And "Rule 1".

[pittyyofool]

I'm not sure which one of us you're addressing, but anyone who can't learn to buddy breathe pretty easily isn't someone who, in my opinion, is smart enough to dive in any conditions.
I was referring to the conversation between the two of you.

[rjack321]

This whole thread reminds me of another phrase from the same original source. Something about "beyond the pale".

Oh, and And "Rule 1".

Not only am I going back to to buddy breathing, I will raise you a SPG with a J-valve!!



I can see the allure of vintage gear for the proficient, but don't see most divers as remotely proficient.

[Nemrod]

I have racked my brain for months trying to answer that question. "Is safe second (octo) really needed for open water diving?" I see and know the necessity for a long hose primary and a short secondary in wreck, cave or technical diving (when i wreck dive I use a proper set up). So this question is strictly regarding recreational open water dives within the NDL. In my 14 years of diving I have never been in nor been able to think of a situation where buddy breathing would not suffice, but a "octo" could. To me it seems the only thing an "octo" is good for is beating reefs and a kelp anchor, because those "octo keepers" don't work worth a damn. With this in mind my (very experienced) buddy and I removed our "octos" about 8 months ago. Since then we get dirty "unsafe" looks from people and DM's, once in a while some one says "we are dangerous and need an octo so we can share air." To that we have replied "Why is that? Isn't that is why they invented Buddy Breathing". To date no diver nor DM has been able to come up with a better answer than "It is easier', or because PADI said so bla bla bla. And I have even received a "Hell Yeah, stick it to him" from an old timer. As of now I personally think an "octo' is a security blanket for the inexperienced or under trained diver.

So here is the true question can anyone give me a valid reason why I should carry a "octo" on open water dives? And further more a situation where buddy breathing would not work, but an "octo" would. Please justify your reasoning and back it up with a story if possible. Or if you agree, leave a "Hell Yeah".

PS: don't tell me to get a BC air source, they are annoying and hinder effective manual inflation of the air cell.

I often don't use an octopus/safe second, particularly for shallower or benign conditions. It is just more junk to tote around and increase failure rate. A friend cruises along below with no BC, no octo, no extra junk, single stage double hose reg. Bullet proof, no O rings, reliable to a fault.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/IMG_0705.jpg

Minimalist diving is the future:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/IMG_1106.jpg

Does Lance Armstrong have training wheels on his race bike?

N

[pittyyofool]

Minimalist diving is the future:
N

I completely agree, and I like your rig, I like being a minimalist to as said in this earlier post. http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4388491-post69.html I am nowhere near the minimalist as you, on most dives, but a few I have come close.

Why carry all that extra crap anyway?
Do you carry around a role of TP just in case the restroom's dispenser does not work?

[Reg Braithwaite]

Do you carry around a role of TP just in case the restroom's dispenser does not work?

Travel much? ;-)

[Slonda828]

This whole thread reminds me of another phrase from the same original source. Something about "beyond the pale".

Oh, and And "Rule 1".

I invoke JeffG's law!

JeffG's law:
As the thread gets longer on Scubaboard, the chance of DIR coming up approaches 1.

Congratulations to nadwidny, for being the first special needs diver of the thread to prove JeffG's law. *clap, clap*

[Teamcasa]

"Is safe second (octo) really needed for open water diving?" <snip>
With this in mind my (very experienced) buddy and I removed our "octos" about 8 months ago.<snip>
Isn't that is why they invented Buddy Breathing".

Since the Octos 1st job is to provide an alternate source of air for your buddy, I say as long as you and your buddy are on the same page, your risks are minimal.
However, the Octos other job is to give you something to use should your primary fail and if you end up separated, no matter the reason, you will be re-thinking that decision pretty fast.

[captain]

However, the Octos other job is to give you something to use should your primary fail and if you end up separated, no matter the reason, you will be re-thinking that decision pretty fast.



Considering a second stage is half of the whole then that logic would be to always have a complete second regulator not half of one because you don't know which half might fail. So in reality it is a half safe second. So everyone will now needs either doubles, a pony or an H valve.

[pittyyofool]

However, the Octos other job is to give you something to use should your primary fail and if you end up separated, no matter the reason, you will be re-thinking that decision pretty fast.
as Captain pointed out that logic is only true if you 2nd stage fails. If somehow your 1st stage fails in a way that does not result in a increased IP causing a free flow. You are still up s#!?s creek with out a paddle no mater how many safe 2nd's, 3rd's and 4th's you may have. In the event of a 1st, or 2nd stage failure modern regulators are designed to free flow, which is a completely manageable situation. Just bite on one side of the mouth piece and breath and return to the surface, allowing the excess air to escape. (or do they not teach that any more either?)

[Teamcasa]

as Captain pointed out that logic is only true if you 2nd stage fails. If somehow your 1st stage fails in a way that does not result in a increased IP causing a free flow. You are still up s#!?s creek with out a paddle no mater how many safe 2nd's, 3rd's and 4th's you may have. In the event of a 1st, or 2nd stage failure modern regulators are designed to free flow, which is a completely manageable situation. Just bite on one side of the mouth piece and breath and return to the surface, allowing the excess air to escape. (or do they not teach that any more either?)

I can also dive with one fin but using two is much eaisier.;)

[pittyyofool]

I can also dive with one fin but using two is much eaisier.;)

I can also dive with 2 second stages but it is easier with only one. :reduced drag, less risk of endangerment, fewer failure points.

[sladerer]

There are a number of ways your primary 2nd stage can fail. One of the more common is the strap tie holding the mouthpiece on breaking, but there are certainly enough others to make having a safe second worth while. I'm not a zealot, and figure most of the time dive how you like - I don't take a snorkel in calm water/weather, have been solo diving, and probably done other things that you think are unsafe. The safe second, like a dive knife/scissors, is something I think that most of us would rather have and not need than the opposite. I use the Atomic safe second/integrated inflator, which for me solves the issue of the dragging octo.

[Slonda828]

There are a number of ways your primary 2nd stage can fail. One of the more common is the strap tie holding the mouthpiece on breaking, but there are certainly enough others to make having a safe second worth while. I'm not a zealot, and figure most of the time dive how you like - I don't take a snorkel in calm water/weather, have been solo diving, and probably done other things that you think are unsafe. The safe second, like a dive knife/scissors, is something I think that most of us would rather have and not need than the opposite. I use the Atomic safe second/integrated inflator, which for me solves the issue of the dragging octo.

The bad part about the SS1 is that the corrugated hose has to be so long to reach your mouth. This means your fancy SS1 drags in the silt if you even dive near the bottom in a horizontal body position (unless you have it short enough that it is useless). Plus, if you lose your octo, you just lost your inflator as well, as all agencies train to disconnect the low pressure inflator hose in the event of a free flow or auto-inflation. There's nothing like putting two pieces of equipment into one item so if one fails they both do not work. I think octo inflators are junk. I used to have one, and now someone on Ebay does.

Furthermore, if your zip tie on your mouthpiece should somehow fail (yes I've seen the video on youtube of the moron woman who experiences this), you can still breathe from your regulator by putting your lips on the case. It's really easy.

[Thalassamania]

There are a number of ways your primary 2nd stage can fail. One of the more common is the strap tie holding the mouthpiece on breaking, but there are certainly enough others to make having a safe second worth while.I'd be very interested in having you describe a few of them (I will stipulate to the crazed, out of air, non-buddy who appears out of nowhere, clawing at the second stage that is in your mouth).


Furthermore, if your zip tie on your mouthpiece should somehow fail (yes I've seen the video on youtube of the moron woman who experiences this), you can still breathe from your regulator by putting your lips on the case. It's really easy.Quite so.

[Nemrod]

There are a number of ways your primary 2nd stage can fail. One of the more common is the strap tie holding the mouthpiece on breaking, but there are certainly enough others to make having a safe second worth while. I'm not a zealot, and figure most of the time dive how you like - I don't take a snorkel in calm water/weather, have been solo diving, and probably done other things that you think are unsafe. The safe second, like a dive knife/scissors, is something I think that most of us would rather have and not need than the opposite. I use the Atomic safe second/integrated inflator, which for me solves the issue of the dragging octo.

An octopus is strictly for air sharing with an OOA diver. It is not and was never intended for redundancy for the primary diver. Therefore, dispensing with it has little impact on the safety of the primary diver. It may affect the safety of the partner (secondary) diver if they are not trained in the art of buddy breathing.

If you want redundancy then you need two complete regulators, not 1.5 regulators.

I doubt anyone can produce any significant statistics demonstrating buddy breathing is more dangerous than the competing method of air sharing via an octopus in the open water environment. Divers did and still do dive in minimalist configurations without any demonstrated decrease in overall safety. Saying it is so does not make it so, no evidence other than dogma proves otherwise.

The octopus/safe second concept is part of a system, it is a good system no doubt and it works. The system is designed to facilitate air sharing with an OOA diver in open water with minimal training via an extra second stage. The redundancy that is built into this system relies on an similarly equipped diver. Once upon a time long ago scuba divers received more than minimal training and did and were taught to buddy breath and the art of the free ascent. Since both divers in such a team were taught buddy breathing skills then they too were part of a system but it was more of a skill-centric system than an equipment-centric system. Both can work very well. For the solo/independent diver, none of this matters because they are not operating within either system, there is no buddy to buddy breath with or to share air via an octopus.

Minimalist diving represents a return to the former skill-centric diving methodologies and a parting of the ways with the low skill requirement, equipment dependent, modern training wheels, carry and extra everything system.

A BC, a buoyancy compensator, is a construction that largely compensates for a lack of skill. With some exceptions of course.

N

[Nemrod]

I can also dive with one fin but using two is much eaisier.;)

How about 1.5 fins?

[Thalassamania]

That makes the case about as clearly as I've ever seen it stated. Thanks.

One quibble: "I doubt anyone can produce any significant statistics demonstrating buddy breathing is more dangerous than the competing method of air sharing via an octopus in the open water environment." You are correct since for any kind of "significance" you need both a numerator and a denominator, and in diving we rarely have either, but when octos were introduced a series of "buddy breathing" failures were cited. I thought, at the time, that this argument was disingenuous since there was no real surety that outcomes would have been any different with or without an octo.

[Teamcasa]

An octopus is strictly for air sharing with an OOA diver. It is not and was never intended for redundancy for the primary diver. Therefore, dispensing with it has little impact on the safety of the primary diver. It may affect the safety of the partner (secondary) diver if they are not trained in the art of buddy breathing.

Nope. While having an octo certainly makes sharing air easier, it is not strictly designated for that purpose. Havng an octo can and does provide an added layer of protection against an unnexpected CESA due to a primary malfunction or failure.

I have no issue with a minimalist diver shedding unwanted redundancy or divers using vintage gear and as long their buddy is like minded or they dive solo.

[captain]

An octo is good for filling lift bags if you are afraid to remove your regulator from your mouth to do it.

[Nemrod]

Nope. While having an octo certainly makes sharing air easier, it is not strictly designated for that purpose. Havng an octo can and does provide an added layer of protection against an unnexpected CESA due to a primary malfunction or failure.

I have no issue with a minimalist diver shedding unwanted redundancy or divers using vintage gear and as long their buddy is like minded or they dive solo.

I don't agree with you at all, not being disrespectful, I simply, plain out don't agree with you. The ONLY purpose for an octopus is and has always been air sharing with an OOA diver. It was presented that way from the beginning of it's introduction and any additional duties to which it has aspired are misdirected. If you need redundancy, you need two regs with H/Y valve or doubles appropriately equipped or ---dare I mention it---a pony/buddy bottle. N

[Teamcasa]

I don't agree with you at all, not being disrespectful, I simply, plain out don't agree with you. The ONLY purpose for an octopus is and has always been air sharing with an OOA diver. It was presented that way from the beginning of it's introduction and any additional duties to which it has aspired are misdirected. If you need redundancy, you need two regs with H/Y valve or doubles appropriately equipped or ---dare I mention it---a pony/buddy bottle. N

No disrespect perceived on my end. We are both entitled to our opinions.;)

[DaleC]

Minimalist diving represents a return to the former skill-centric diving methodologies and a parting of the ways with the low skill requirement, equipment dependent, modern training wheels, carry and extra everything system.
N

No it just represents a different way of diving. Boys with their toys and all that. One is no better or worse a diver because you dive a minimalist rig. The diver makes the diver, not the rig.

For the life of me I can't understand why some people can't represent their preferences without tearing down someone else's. If you want others to respect your way of diving why not trying to respect theirs.

[Slonda828]

No it just represents a different way of diving. Boys with their toys and all that. One is no better or worse a diver because you dive a minimalist rig. The diver makes the diver, not the rig.

For the life of me I can't understand why some people can't represent their preferences without tearing down someone else's. If you want others to respect your way of diving why not trying to respect theirs.

How is what Nemrod said at all inaccurate?

"low skill requirement, equipment dependent, modern training wheels, carry and extra everything system."

Equipment does replace skill. This is one of the many reasons open water diver is no longer a 40+ hour course like it was back in the day. Back then you had to...gosh, what did they call that....SWIM and be in shape. If you do not think that most divers are equipment dependent, then go on a charter and ask someone to dive without any of the following:

-BCD.
-dive computer.
-Octopus.

All of the above are extras if you are trained proficiently. If you have any doubts, I suggest you go to International Legends of Diving - Scuba Diving Sponsored by Portage Quarry (http://www.internationallegendsofdiving.com/)

I agree with you fundamentally Dale, but I really do not think that he was bashing anyone. He didn't say your way of diving is wrong. I think if you took it that way, maybe you should try diving without any of the aforementioned items, and maybe you'll feel better...unless you can't swim, in which case keep your BC on (I'm kidding, I know you can swim.)

[DaleC]

I didn't say he was inaccurate, I said he should try respecting other peoples choices if he wants others to respect his.

I have nothing against minimalist rigs but I also don't have anything against DIR, dork or free divers either. I don't confuse the rig with the diver or think that one rig suits all conditions. Each method can teach us something about some aspect of diving. Why not focus on the lessons to be learned from minimalist diving instead of speaking in condescending terms about others who carry more or different gear than you (the general, not personal, you). The gear you choose might be right for the dives you do but it is not right for every diver or every dive. Remember, to a free diver, you minimalists are gear dependent and low skilled... and in their small world they are correct.

I also believe that a BCD is not required for some dives
I also believe a computer is not needed
I also believe one can successfully dive without an octo (for some dives) but that it poses problems for other divers who may assume you have one



If I were setting up a solo rig for isolated, shallow diving I would be quite content to have a single 22" bungied reg. There's nothing wrong with that thinking. If my buddy was like minded a single 40" reg. would suffice I suppose. If I'm around others I would want to be able to offer an octo if needed as that is what is expected. I could huff and puff and try to make everyone bend to my will but is that an expression of skill or ego?
Complaining about the lax state of affairs in modern diving doesn't change the facts. It is what it is what it is. Proper situational awareness means understanding and accepting things as they are, not as we would wish them to be.

[pittyyofool]

For the life of me I can't understand why some people can't represent their preferences without tearing down someone else's. If you want others to respect your way of diving why not trying to respect theirs.
I do not believe nemrod was bashing any one persons way of diving, if anything he might have been bashing most certification agencies and there requirements. I agree with him, most agencies are now producing ill equipped divers. At one point in time divers were taught to be self sufficient and not rely on "accessories" to compensate for their incompetencies.
I became a diver 14 years ago, and I feel I was not trained to be self sufficient enough. I look at some friends getting certified now, and they are required to be thought so little self sufficiency that I will not go diving with them until I put them threw my self sufficiency class in my pool. I consider them a personal liability to me if they are not even capable of taking care of them self.
The session mainly consists of putting there regs on a tank and throwing all there gear, completely disassembled, and bc strap unlaced in to the deep end of my pool. Then I tell them to jump in, and find there air supply first then the mask, and then assemble and dawn all the gear. If they surface before the task is complete they get to start over. They have all thanked me and told me how much they learned during the 45min (average time it takes for a new diver it do it) in the bottom of my pool and they all wished there was something like that in their class.

[Nemrod]

I didn't say he was inaccurate, I said he should try respecting other peoples choices if he wants others to respect his.
wish them to be.

Uh, excuse me, stating a disagreement is not being disrespectful nor is it inaccurate and especially when I stated in the post, "not to be disrespectful" and the reason I put that in there is for people who try to misconstrue and as well for the fact that Thal, Team and youself are people that I highly respect even when I don't agree with you or them. And, I have stated so before and now yet again.

Disagreement is not disrespect, read what I said and don't extrapolate my "feelings" or intentions beyond what I write. I did not say he was an idiot (because he is the total opposite of that) but I did say that I plain don't agree on a few points and I don't.

Maybe this is some sort of cultural shift, carrying an argument, disagreeing on points, stating a different opinion, is not disrespect, it is disagreement.

Jeeez, it is not like I don't have five or six BCs of my own and a variety of alternate air sources and note how I put my wife in the water:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/IMG_0886.jpg

One might note she has a jacket and an octopus and I have as well here:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/IMG_0632.jpg

DIR/GUE, that is all a good thing, they teach and expect buoyancy control skills and they drill air sharing techniques. Well, the no-BC or minimalist diver must be the master of buoyancy skills, learning to control buoyancy sans BC would help a lot of people we read about HERE with the weighting questions and the buoyancy skill questions. It is not an add on skill, it is a primary skill. PadI teaches it as a merit badge after the fact skill, good grief, Peak Buoyancy course, yeah, they need to teach that up front. It is a PRIMARY skill just like clearing a mask. And, on topic, buddy breathing should still be taught as well as an important skill and if you utilize that system it makes sense to drill it on occasion.

No disrespect intended.

N

[Nemrod]

No it just represents a different way of diving. Boys with their toys and all that. One is no better or worse a diver because you dive a minimalist rig. The diver makes the diver, not the rig.

For the life of me I can't understand why some people can't represent their preferences without tearing down someone else's. If you want others to respect your way of diving why not trying to respect theirs.

I am referring to an instructional system that has failed so many, most of whom, have no idea they have been failed. I use a wing/BP and alternate air sources, but, I don't rely upon them as a crutch. Am I disrespecting myself--no. It is not the use of the equipment, it is the instructional dependency that makes me go bonkers. I am sorry that you misunderstood.

Again, myself with wing/BP and octo:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/ChisVintageDiverPics2009031.jpg

N

[ToPpS]

I will only speak for myself here. If a diver wants to dive without a spare octo, that's his choice but he/she won't be my buddy and that's my choice.

As some people have noted, PADI no longer trains divers in buddy breathing. I'm not 100% on the exact reasons but i'm sure that some of them have been touched on, many times in this thread.

Today if you want a minimalist set-up just chose the integrated inflater option like the AirII. Then there is still the option of having a spare octo and you still have a nice clean rig.

I have a spare octo, not because i like having everything but if my dive buddy (who's responsible for his/her own kit) for some reason has a problem, I am able to both deal with the situation and surface safely.

Granted I also have an AI computer with no SPG backup but I've still screwed in a Apeks pony gauge into the first stage just in case...... not ideal, but in an emergency i can still see how much air i have left.

At the end of the day, you can plan to dive a safe dive but it's those unforeseeable instances that you need to be prepared for.

[Nemrod]

I will only speak for myself here.

Today if you want a minimalist set-up just chose the integrated inflater option like the AirII. Then there is still the option of having a spare octo and you still have a nice clean rig.

[/B]

If a minimalist diver has no BC then he/she will not have an AirII which is like the worst of everything and none of the good. JMO. No disrespect intended.

No BCs, no octos, hey, y'all quit that before the PadI Police show up.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/IMG_0909.jpg

It is the "Silver Bullet," underwater superhero. His powers include mutant buddy breathing and no-BC buoyancy skills. Beware X Men.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/IMG_0617.jpg

Diving without a BC or octopus is impossible and unsafe, yawn:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/IMG_0891.jpg

Come on in, it really is not like they tell you, the water is fine (those are CO2 surface inflation vests, not a BC):

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/Scuba%20ads/4db6_1.jpg

I am done, carry on, I apologize for being disrespectful to whomever I was, specifically Team, Thal, Dale C, et al.


N, Rise of the Mutant Frogmen

[ToPpS]

Nemrod, I've never seen anything like that..... but then i'm new to diving, so that probably explains it.

Very interesting though!

[pittyyofool]

IMO being a minimalist is not about diving "naked" or under equipped for the situation. It is about choosing the right tool(s) for the job. If you are tightening a TP holder are you going to bring a concrete hammer drill and sawzall? NO you get a screwdriver. Minimalists ONLY take the gear with them that is needed to safely complete the job and rely on there learned skill for the rest. In open water conditions most minimalists leave almost everything on the boat except a tank, reg, fins and some nylon webbing. "call it MacGyver if you want." If they go scallop collecting they will take a BC or lift bag, if they do a wreck penetration they will bring all the necessary extra equipment. If they dive with some one that is not comfortable with them diving "naked" they will adjust there rig so there buddy is now comfortable, because buddy comfort is part of the job description and must be fulfilled.
When I dive with my girl friend or a few other unnamed people I look like any other diver octo and all, because they need me to have all that stuff to feel comfortable. When I do a Wreck penetration I take a ton of stuff (almost all of it is used), I need this to be comfortable. When I dive with Daniel and/or Matt in open water the padi police are called...

[pittyyofool]

http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/46/l_f9aafe9c639cee4362c9c13e9c044561.jpg
My buddy Daniel doing a 262 FSW tech dive. No BC, No octos, No redundancy. Just 3 gas mixes , fins and his home made back plate. back plate: sheet of aluminum, 2 bent aluminum pipes- bent and welded on for shoulder hooks, and a 2 inch webbing waist strap/weight belt.
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/92/l_1c89af5a4e5cef13ca9f875774a6859a.jpg
another pic, and yes the snorkel was needed that day.

[Reg Braithwaite]

My buddy Daniel doing a 262 FSW tech dive. No BC, No octos, No redundancy. Just 3 gas mixes , fins and his home made back plate. back plate: sheet of aluminum, 2 bent aluminum pipes- bent and welded on for shoulder hooks, and a 2 inch webbing waist strap/weight belt.

You would have liked Wolfgang Güllich:

http://desnivel.com/deportes/escalada_en_roca/images/gullich_solo_zak01.jpg

Say what you will about leopard print shorts, his taste for climbing without a harness or rope (or even a shirt!) seems to match your style. Not that it's especially relevant, but it's interesting that very, very few climbers have been killed while climbing without a rope. Of course, few climbers are so bold. And those that dare are often extraordinarily careful and focused. I wonder if the mindset of the free solo climber is similar to the mindset of the minimalist diver.

[pittyyofool]

You are right, I think I do like Wolfgang, and His shorts are radical. I think I might go get a pair for my next warm dive.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I love all these "balls of steel" stories ... very entertaining.

But I can't help notice all these pictures have something in common ... no hood, no gloves, skimpy little wetsuits, crystal blue water.

You guys call that diving?

;)

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[pittyyofool]

Yes i do, those photos were taken in Alaska during the dead of winter. "HOUAA, BALLS OF STEEL" no really they were shot in the cook islands. I have been to the PacNW and that is some cold rough stuff up there, different situation= different equipment.

[DaleC]

You guys are great and I like reading about your style of diving and N I don't feel offended. I just think the message would resonate better without the negative rhetoric about training wheels, poor standards etc... We all know that things were better in the good old days. One has to realize that not everyone who opts out of a minimalist rig is doing so because of poor skills/training etc... so when one equates the gear with poor skills/training you will get some push back. In fact, this is just the very topic we were discussing in the "what is DIR" thread.

What is the commonly held view of the worst thing to happen to DIR?
Georges attitude of belittling others to promote his own style. Something that was completely unnecessary and counter productive.
I just don't think you guys should go down the same route, that's all.

[Sas]

I love all these "balls of steel" stories ... very entertaining.

But I can't help notice all these pictures have something in common ... no hood, no gloves, skimpy little wetsuits, crystal blue water.

You guys call that diving?

;)

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

:rofl3: That is what I was thinking!

I'd love to dive with no hood, no gloves and in a skimpy little wetsuit. I think most people could quite easily manage to dive without a BC in those conditions. I'll give it a go myself when I, one day, end up doing a warm water dive.

[scorpluvsdolphins]

I went on a dive with someone who didn't get his gear checked out and hadn't dove for awhile. We did a wreck 125' with a 2knot current. We had to pull ourselves down the anchor line. It felt like I was having a water face lift I couldn't turn my head to make sure he was behind me on the line without holding my mask and reg. The current wanted to rip my reg out. I had to bite it hard to keep it in my mouth. We go down to the wreck, no problem. I reached 1000 psi and I signaled to go up. His gauge said over 2000 psi. While swimming back to the line, I thought it was odd that he had more air than me as I usually have more air left than most men. We got to the line, went up a few feet and he signaled out of air. I immediately gave him my reg and used my integrated, praying it would work. It did. He tried to buddy breath with me and I signaled no, I had mine. We had to go back up the line. It wasn't fun. Within a few feet of the surface my integrated reg filled with water as I tried to breathe from it. I swallowed the sea water as I did get air first before it filled up and I didn't want to spit it out and have no air. I shot up the last few feet dragging him with me. Thank God he didn't let go of the line as the current was strong and he didn't have a safety sausage.
When I had my integrated checked out, (only 8 months old), it seems the water pressure flipped a valve.
It all turned out all right, but it would have been scary to try and buddy breathe, hold on to the line and get to the top from 90 plus feet down.

[captain]

I went on a dive with someone who didn't get his gear checked out and hadn't dove for awhile. We did a wreck 125' with a 2knot current. We had to pull ourselves down the anchor line. It felt like I was having a water face lift I couldn't turn my head to make sure he was behind me on the line without holding my mask and reg. The current wanted to rip my reg out. I had to bite it hard to keep it in my mouth. We go down to the wreck, no problem. I reached 1000 psi and I signaled to go up. His gauge said over 2000 psi. While swimming back to the line, I thought it was odd that he had more air than me as I usually have more air left than most men. We got to the line, went up a few feet and he signaled out of air. I immediately gave him my reg and used my integrated, praying it would work. It did. He tried to buddy breath with me and I signaled no, I had mine. We had to go back up the line. It wasn't fun. Within a few feet of the surface my integrated reg filled with water as I tried to breathe from it. I swallowed the sea water as I did get air first before it filled up and I didn't want to spit it out and have no air. I shot up the last few feet dragging him with me. Thank God he didn't let go of the line as the current was strong and he didn't have a safety sausage.
When I had my integrated checked out, (only 8 months old), it seems the water pressure flipped a valve.
It all turned out all right, but it would have been scary to try and buddy breathe, hold on to the line and get to the top from 90 plus feet down.


And what would you have done if your intergrated had failed at 90 feet instead of a few feet from the surface. I bet buddy breathing wouldn't have been such a bad idea then.

[sladerer]

I'm not offended either - I enjoy the stories and the views of other divers. We're not in elementary school though, so I'll leave off listing out the ways a primary second stage can fail...

As for the integrated safe second/inflator - use one or not, take an octo or not, none of my business - mine is long enough to breathe from but secured well enough that it doesn't drag yet easy to free if I need it (which I practice at least once on each dive trip). Higher risk of failure combining the two than a separate inflator and octo, sure, but I find this an amusing position when a lot of the "lose the octo" discussion revolves around streamlining :-D

Buddy breathing - we were taught buddy breathing by our SSI instructor - maybe he was old school, maybe he just liked f'ing with us, but there are people out there teaching it even if the agencies don't insist on it. I'm inclined to think they should go back to teaching more of it.

As for all the minimalist/DIR/etc rigs, glad you like them, very cool looking, just don't expect most of us will follow suit, nor assume it's because we're not able. I find my equipment very comfortable, very easy to use, very adaptable to different conditions, and frankly I'm not looking for ways to see how cool or retro or anything else I can be. I enjoy diving the way I currently do it and find it hard to believe my appreciation and enjoyment would increase significantly if I were to go through the time and effort to do it "your" way ;-)

[Teamcasa]

I'm quite sure valid cases can be made in hindsight, for situations where buddy breathing is preferred and just as many cases can be made for using a conventional octo. Going over those will always elicit other scenarios where the writer supports their own point of view. But, that's the best thing about discussing them, we all learn something and further shape our own diving paradigm.

I like using an octo, but then again, my wife is my primary diving buddy and it reassures me she has an octo as well.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I just don't get where all this "an octopus creates extra drag" argument comes from. Doubles create extra drag. Deco bottles create extra drag. Heck, a drysuit creates extra drag. But I just can't see a half-inch diameter hose with a four-inch plastic disk attached to the end of it creating enough drag to notice ... not unless you've unstowed the thing and it's managed to snag a few stems of bull kelp or something.

I just don't get it ... especially not from all these manly-men doing 200-foot dives with nothing but fins, mask, and a steel 72 tucked under their arm ... ;)

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Teamcasa]

I just don't get where all this "an octopus creates extra drag" argument comes from.

Me neither. Scuba divers are about as streamlined as a cement truck anyway, I doubt the octo adds much more.;)

[Nemrod]

I'm not offended either - I enjoy the stories and the views of other divers. We're not in elementary school though I were to go through the time and effort to do it "your" way ;-)

Or "your" way, ;).

This does not have a second stage to fail, only one O-ring and that is not critical to function.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/Scuba%20Stuff/DSCF0003.jpg

Yes, it is true, diving sans BC, octos and all the extras is more streamlined and more 3D.

Like he said, we equip for the circumstances, don't need it then we don't take it. Well, gotta get back to the shop, trying to repair/troubleshoot a trim tab issue with the boat before the first outing. Adios, amigos.

N

[Dan Weidert]

<<snip>> To me it seems the only thing an "octo" is good for is beating reefs and a kelp anchor, because those "octo keepers" don't work worth a damn. <<snip>> To date no diver nor DM has been able to come up with a better answer than "It is easier', or because PADI said so bla bla bla. <<snip>>

So here is the true question can anyone give me a valid reason why I should carry a "octo" on open water dives? And further more a situation where buddy breathing would not work, but an "octo" would. Please justify your reasoning and back it up with a story if possible. Or if you agree, leave a "Hell Yeah".

PS: don't tell me to get a BC air source, they are annoying and hinder effective manual inflation of the air cell.

Pitty,
I don't know if you will consider this a "good" reason but here you go. When I first certified buddy breathing was what was taught. No octos, heck no BCD (unless you count the Mae West vest). But the industry changed standards.... why? I can think of three good reasons - margin of safety, task loading, and panic.

Yesterday three of us were diving in 15 ft vis. The buddy to my immediate left stopped and was interacting with the buddy to his left then signaled to me to start back to shore (this was at 89 ft and the plan was to go to 100). As we turned I noticed he had donated his long hose to the buddy to his left. We began a nice easy return to shore (in a slight current- a first for me in a lake) and even made a 3 min safety stop. We were all more alert but not overly stressed. Turns out the other diver experienced free flow. Because we had redundancy - we were able to stop, breathe, think, act in a calm manner.

Having to buddy breathe and ascend 89 feet is just begging someone to ascend too fast, not exhale properly, increase stress, and possibly increase the chance of panic. All of those risks are easy to manage (amazing what 15 inches of bungee cord will do). In diving, some risks are necessary. Taking ones that are not necessary is begging Neptune to teach us humility.

Dan

[Slonda828]

I just don't get where all this "an octopus creates extra drag" argument comes from. Doubles create extra drag. Deco bottles create extra drag. Heck, a drysuit creates extra drag. But I just can't see a half-inch diameter hose with a four-inch plastic disk attached to the end of it creating enough drag to notice ... not unless you've unstowed the thing and it's managed to snag a few stems of bull kelp or something.

I just don't get it ... especially not from all these manly-men doing 200-foot dives with nothing but fins, mask, and a steel 72 tucked under their arm ... ;)

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

In all honesty, most of the reasons I choose to nix the octo are primarily due to:

-blackwater diving with a J valve and no SPG for light salvage.

-vintage diving with a reg that cannot physically support an octo.

My PADI police approved rig and my tech rig both have an octo. Heck, one of them is on a 22" hose with a gen-u-wine shock cord necklace just like them fancy tech divers. I believe they call that an alternate second stage though. Tee hee.

I think the point is mostly that you will not explode if you do not use one. I use one in most of my diving, just not all of my diving. It just makes me laugh when people on a dive boat freak out because I do not have one. I'm not a hary-chested diver, and I don't dive overheads or complex dive profiles without an alternate second stage. Like Nem said, I dive for the profile. I bring what I need for the dive. If I need a BC, an octo, or a computer, then I use one. If I do not need them, I do not use them.

[pittyyofool]

Just out of curiosity has the term "minimalist diving" been around for a while or did this thread create a name/label for this minimalist way of diving?

[NWGratefulDiver]

Just out of curiosity has the term "minimalist diving" been around for a while or did this thread create a name/label for this minimalist way of diving?

It's been around for longer than I've been diving.

In every recreational activity I've ever been involved in, there are those who adopt alternative styles of doing that activity. And there are always a certain percentage of them who rationalize their decision by trying to convince everyone else that the conventional way is somehow deficient.

Diving ... like every other recreational activity ... is all about having fun. If "your" way helps you have fun, more power to ya. But all this talk about how much better it is ... or how much more "skillful" you have to be ... or how deficient the conventional way is ... reminds me of my grandfather's stories about walking to school "back in the day" ... :shakehead:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Nemrod]

Just out of curiosity has the term "minimalist diving" been around for a while or did this thread create a name/label for this minimalist way of diving?

No, it did not comes from this thread, minimalism is a loosely defined, evolving concept practiced by individuals who mostly don't follow any doctrines and mostly don't even communicate with each other, imagine that. There have been threads here in the past and on other boards. On this board there are several minimalists but among us our definition varies as one might expect. Actually, minimalism goes back to the beginning and while vintage equipment diving is often very minimal in nature a minimalist diver may more likely use fully modern equipment. Rather than following a dogma that requires specific equipment, team concepts, equipment reliance, a minimalist diver will choose equipment and methods to conform to a minimal profile for that dive as required and as they choose.

The Back Pack divers of California are an example, vintage divers are generally an example, free divers who use scuba to augment, some spearfisherman who use basic rigs are examples, etc.

I am headed to south Flariduh in a few weeks. I will beach dive several reef lines, I will use nothing but tank and single stage single hose reg. Then I will head south to the Keys and dive perhaps the Spiegal Grove before it rolls over again, there I will include a wing, octo, other equipment as the mission becomes defined--but no more than I absolutely need.

A minimalist would not likely have a tank clacker, :no:.

N

[Walter]

A minimalist would not likely have a tank clacker

I love it! I hate those things.

[pittyyofool]

A minimalist would not likely have a tank clacker.

N

LOL, so true. those things are such a nuisance.

[pittyyofool]

In every recreational activity I've ever been involved in, there are those who adopt alternative styles of doing that activity. And there are always a certain percentage of them who rationalize their decision by trying to convince everyone else that the conventional way is somehow deficient.

Diving ... like every other recreational activity ... is all about having fun. If "your" way helps you have fun, more power to ya. But all this talk about how much better it is ... or how much more "skillful" you have to be ... or how deficient the conventional way is ... reminds me of my grandfather's stories about walking to school "back in the day" ... :shakehead:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
geee, so defensive, and offended sounding. I apologize If we offended you and made it seam like we were "pushing" some darn ignorant religion on you. That was not our intent. If we do anything we may encourage you to try different things and find out for yourself what works best for you, and not what someone else told you. (if it happens to be the same so be it.) I do not, have not, nor will ever look down on someone just because they are a gear hauler when they dive. I Know plenty of divers that are capable of the "minimalist style" that chose not to participate. Just because they have an octo it doesn't mean that they are stupid or incompetent. But I do believe if one decides to get rid of a piece of gear they must have a skill to replace what that gear was originally intended for, otherwise it is asking for trouble. If you remove the octo be a competent buddy breather, remove the BC, KNOW your bouynsey,etc.
And as several of us have stated we believe that agencies are pumping out divers that in our opinion should not be diving yet due to lack of training. This is in no way the divers fault. So we can not hate them for there lack of needed skill, all we can do is try to encourage one to learn what the agency failed to teach.
At one point in time dive classes taught what was known about diving, and as new stuff came along it was included in the course. This was all aimed at growing knowledge. Then a trend came along of removing skills and training from the curriculum to make it cheaper, quicker, and easier to become a diver. (aimed at reducing knowledge?) It seams that every time I turn around another skill has been dropped from the curriculum and i am afraid this will continue to happen. If an untrained inexperienced diver wants to go diving that is fine, but don't give them a card saying they are competent when they are not.
In hindsight the minimalist relays on many of the basic skills that have been removed from the course curriculum because they are difficult for some to do with out allot of practice. It is not that a new diver can not do the skills, it is that the agency dos not want to spend time teaching them. That is where my BEEF is.

[Teamcasa]

...I do not, have not, nor will ever look down on someone just because they are a gear hauler when they dive. I Know plenty of divers that are capable of the "minimalist style" that chose not to participate. Just because they have an octo it doesn't mean that they are stupid or incompetent.
I appreciate your sentiment here but based on some of your previous posts, one would think you felt differently.


...But I do believe if one decides to get rid of a piece of gear they must have a skill to replace what that gear was originally intended for, otherwise it is asking for trouble.
I concur.


If you remove the octo be a competent buddy breather, remove the BC, KNOW your bouynsey,etc.
I'm not sure how removing your octo equates to removing you BC?

[pittyyofool]

I'm not sure how removing your octo equates to removing you BC?

they are both pieces of gear that divers (including me) were brain washed in to believing we NEED and can not survive with out.


I appreciate your sentiment here but based on some of your previous posts, one would think you felt differently.


my "meanest" comments of this thread.



As of now I personally think an "octo' is a security blanket for the inexperienced or under trained diver.

referring to the training that was received. I am not calling a diver stupid.


Hhahahahahaha LOL. You hit that nail on the head. You are a wise fish and did not fall for the bait, but some others... well they say you never catch the smart fish.

referring to people on the computer not in the water.


So are you saying that there are smarter farm animals than divers? with the lax requirements of some training agencies now days, I might agree.

once again, referring to the training that was received. I am not calling a diver stupid.


At one point in time divers were taught to be self sufficient and not rely on "accessories" to compensate for their incompetencies. I look at some friends getting certified now, and they are required to be thought so little self sufficiency that I will not go diving with them until I put them threw my self sufficiency class in my pool.

once again, referring to the training that was received. I am not calling a diver stupid. The most time that it took someone to complete my class was 2.5 hrs and 3 tanks of air. when i made him do it again it took 15min. no one has ever failed, or given up because there is no pressure and no time limit. I am willing to spend the time where the agencies are not.

[NWGratefulDiver]

geee, so defensive, and offended sounding. I apologize If we offended you and made it seam like we were "pushing" some darn ignorant religion on you. That was not our intent.

I'm not the least bit offended ... I've been on ScubaBoard long enough to have seen just about every form of troll and every type of ego our Creator ever imagined. You are far from the offensive end of that scale. If anything, I'm rather amused at how "superior" you and some of these other folks can get because of your gear choices.



If we do anything we may encourage you to try different things and find out for yourself what works best for you, and not what someone else told you. (if it happens to be the same so be it.)

I've gone through my own configuration choices and transformations over the years, as have most experienced divers. Just because we don't make the same choices you do doesn't mean we're ignorant ... but rather that we've tried different things and decided on a configuration that works for our diving style and circumstances. "Minimalist" wouldn't be prudent for the dives I like to do.



I do not, have not, nor will ever look down on someone just because they are a gear hauler when they dive. I Know plenty of divers that are capable of the "minimalist style" that chose not to participate. Just because they have an octo it doesn't mean that they are stupid or incompetent.

But there are several comments in this thread ... some by you ... that would contradict what you just said. In fact, what's a "gear hauler"?



But I do believe if one decides to get rid of a piece of gear they must have a skill to replace what that gear was originally intended for, otherwise it is asking for trouble. If you remove the octo be a competent buddy breather, remove the BC, KNOW your bouynsey,etc.

What makes you think that competence and gear choices have anything to do with each other?



And as several of us have stated we believe that agencies are pumping out divers that in our opinion should not be diving yet due to lack of training. This is in no way the divers fault. So we can not hate them for there lack of needed skill, all we can do is try to encourage one to learn what the agency failed to teach.

Agencies don't pump out divers ... instructors do. If an instructor decides to use watered-down standards as an excuse to train people poorly, then I'd be faulting the instructor. If an instructor can't put in the effort to train divers properly, then that person chose the wrong vocation.



At one point in time dive classes taught what was known about diving, and as new stuff came along it was included in the course. This was all aimed at growing knowledge. Then a trend came along of removing skills and training from the curriculum to make it cheaper, quicker, and easier to become a diver. (aimed at reducing knowledge?) It seams that every time I turn around another skill has been dropped from the curriculum and i am afraid this will continue to happen. If an untrained inexperienced diver wants to go diving that is fine, but don't give them a card saying they are competent when they are not.

What an interesting notion ... teach everything there is to know about diving in one class. In the past 8-1/2 years I've taken probably 40 classes. On top of that, I've spent hundreds of hours in the water with mentors learning things about diving that no one teaches in a class. If I had to put all that stuff into a single class, I suspect it'd have taken me at least a couple of years to get certified. And that don't even account for all that is known about diving that I haven't even learned yet.

Somehow I don't think that in 1995 ... which by your account is when you initially got certified ... they were putting as much into the basic open water class as you claim they did.



In hindsight the minimalist relays on many of the basic skills that have been removed from the course curriculum because they are difficult for some to do with out allot of practice. It is not that a new diver can not do the skills, it is that the agency dos not want to spend time teaching them. That is where my BEEF is.

What skills would those be?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[pittyyofool]

I'm not the least bit offended ... I've been on ScubaBoard long enough to have seen just about every form of troll and every type of ego our Creator ever imagined. You are far from the offensive end of that scale. If anything, I'm rather amused at how "superior" you and some of these other folks can get because of your gear choices.
ok, maybe. After all we do have the Silver Bullet Superhero as a mascot! Photograph by Nemrod
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/IMG_0617.jpg



I've gone through my own configuration choices and transformations over the years, as have most experienced divers. Just because we don't make the same choices you do doesn't mean we're ignorant ... but rather that we've tried different things and decided on a configuration that works for our diving style and circumstances. "Minimalist" wouldn't be prudent for the dives I like to do.

In case you have not been reading all the posts a minimalist adapts their equipment to the situation. Agreed "naked" does not work well for the PacNW. I have dove there, (in the Puget sound) and I was nowhere close to "Naked". I wore 2 pairs of those cute leopard print shorts that Reg Braithwaite pointed out. No really I used a harness and wing, and a farmer john 7mm, a 5ft primary and OMG a alternate second stage! We were diving pilings in allot of surge. different environment = different equipment.



Originally Posted by pittyyofool View Post
I do not, have not, nor will ever look down on someone just because they are a gear hauler when they dive. I Know plenty of divers that are capable of the "minimalist style" that chose not to participate. Just because they have an octo it doesn't mean that they are stupid or incompetent.

But there are several comments in this thread ... some by you ... that would contradict what you just said.
read my previous post...


In fact, what's a "gear hauler"?
one whom takes way, way, way more than the required amount of gear on every dive.


What makes you think that competence and gear choices have anything to do with each other?

Nothing, where did you get that idea? I stated multiple times that I know lots of competent divers that wear all the "Padi police recommended" gear on every dive.



Agencies don't pump out divers ... instructors do. If an instructor decides to use watered-down standards as an excuse to train people poorly, then I'd be faulting the instructor. If an instructor can't put in the effort to train divers properly, then that person chose the wrong vocation.

Ok, so maybe it is the instructors fault, but isn't the agency there to make sure that the instructor is doing his job and following the requirements set fourth by the agency. If the agency is so "watered-down" what is the point of it. An instructor might be better off, to disconnect him self from such an agency and teach on his own terms.



What an interesting notion ... teach everything there is to know about diving in one class. In the past 8-1/2 years I've taken probably 40 classes. On top of that, I've spent hundreds of hours in the water with mentors learning things about diving that no one teaches in a class. If I had to put all that stuff into a single class, I suspect it'd have taken me at least a couple of years to get certified. And that don't even account for all that is known about diving that I haven't even learned yet.

In the 50's when classes were being started there was not much to be known about diving, it was still an adventure sport. As new Knowledge (ex. the NDL table) came along they chose to include it, or save it for a different class (ex. the NDL wheel) that is different than deciding a perfectly good skill that has been included for years is no longer desirable and no longer teach it. (like buddy breathing, what if your octo is jammed with sand or a tear in the diaphragm and will no longer work in an OOA?)


Somehow I don't think that in 1995 ... which by your account is when you initially got certified ... they were putting as much into the basic open water class as you claim they did.
If you read this you would not have asked this question.

pittyyofool: page 14 : At one point in time divers were taught to be self sufficient and not rely on "accessories" to compensate for their incompetencies.
I became a diver 14 years ago, and I feel I was not trained to be self sufficient enough.


What skills would those be?
basic skills: buddy breathing. buoyancy by breathing, not by the elevator jacket. equipment management, removing and putting on all gear in the open water (weight system, bc, fins, undo your buddies tank strap and put it back on). I cant tell you how many loose or incorrectly fastened tank straps I have fixed on people. (buddies and strangers.)

[captain]

Those that did not train in the era before the octo and BC have no way of judging what is or is not being taught today versus what was taught in the past. Many have said, and I tend to agree that OW and AOW today is less than equal to the one and only certification (Scuba Diver)available then.

[Teamcasa]

<snip> I cant tell you how many loose or incorrectly fastened tank straps I have fixed on people. (buddies and strangers.)

Don't tell these folks that!;) j/k
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/282649-tampering-other-divers-gear.html

[spectrum]

Me neither. Scuba divers are about as streamlined as a cement truck anyway, I doubt the octo adds much more.;)

I'm sure it adds less than a wing.

As for the original question (sorry I'm late) you probably don't need a safe second but it can make assisting a buddy a lot easier.

Pete

[NWGratefulDiver]

Those that did not train in the era before the octo and BC have no way of judging what is or is not being taught today versus what was taught in the past. Many have said, and I tend to agree that OW and AOW today is less than equal to the one and only certification (Scuba Diver)available then.

That is probably true ... for the most part. On the other hand, I have met and dived with a few old-timers who could not pass my AOW class. I have no idea what they learned back then, but if it was as great as you say it was, they sure didn't maintain those skills very well.

The mental approach to diving was also apparently pretty different back then. I get the impression they didn't teach much in the way of buddy skills. Without going into the merits and drawbacks of the buddy system, my point is simply that if divers are going to be trained to dive with a buddy, that training should include what it takes to BE a dive buddy. The old-school divers I've dived with seem to be even more clueless in that respect than most of the newer divers I've known.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Thalassamania]

The old-school divers I've dived with seem to be even more clueless in that respect than most of the newer divers I've known.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)I find exactly the opposite.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I find exactly the opposite.

In hindsight, that was too broad ... one of my earliest mentors has been diving for more than four decades, and that guy had eyes everywhere. I can think of a few, though, who've been diving for nearly as long who are very much self-centric. If you were to swim off and leave them on their own, I don't think they'd even notice.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Nemrod]

These type threads always draw the most passionate responses from both sides and usually succeed only in making everybody angry even when they forget what the original post asked.

Sorta like:

You are trying to make everybody diver YOUR way, no, buster, you are trying to make everybody dive YOUR way, and, your mother wears army shoes, no, I double dog dare you to dive without a BC and octopus--OK---tripe dog dare me, I don't care.

I think the ingrained dogmatic majority are feeling threatened by a few minimalist who don't obey the snorkel rules. Come on in people, dump the junk, the water is great!

N

[pittyyofool]

If you were to swim off and leave them on their own, I don't think they'd even notice.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Is it not notice or not care? Some people are fine diving by the "same day same ocean, I have a buddy somewhere" rule. Solo diving can be fun, but it should be in the plan not to reconvene after separation.

[Thalassamania]

In hindsight, that was too broad ... one of my earliest mentors has been diving for more than four decades, and that guy had eyes everywhere. I can think of a few, though, who've been diving for nearly as long who are very much self-centric. If you were to swim off and leave them on their own, I don't think they'd even notice.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)I think that's fair, as we age and experentiate we become more and more ourselves ... I become a better buddy with every dive I make ... (every breath I take?) while I have known others that traipse off in exactly the opposite direction.

[Nemrod]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NWGratefulDiver View Post
If you were to swim off and leave them on their own, I don't think they'd even notice.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Is it not notice or not care? Some people are fine diving by the "same day same ocean, I have a buddy somewhere" rule. Solo diving can be fun, but it should be in the plan not to reconvene after separation.

Pitty, in some cases, possibly this case, I would wander off on purpose, in fact, I would wander off to a different ocean.

It is sorta nice diving with people who are confident on their own and don't need to check my air every 30 seconds. Just a different way of doing things, everything has it's place and time, every dog has his day.

Hey, y'all, come back here, somebody needs to check my air, oh, wait, I don't have an spg, I loaned it to someone and don't give a darn:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/IMG_0665.jpg

At a incidence of 48.6 degrees light is reflected back into the water (or atmosphere) which is why we have the ring, I don't know, I just like the way it looks, like an Alice and Wonderland mirror to another dimension. Once the sun drops below the equivalent angle it is only the diffuse light, scattered light, of the atmosphere that lights our underwater world.

N

[Matt S.]

I find this whole discussion amazing, even for this place. Despite assurances to the contrary, what I see is a cowboy attitude, and someone who walked into the bar looking for a fight.

No matter what you and your buddy have agreed to be comfortable with, you often aren't the only people around on a dive. OK, it isn't likely that a panicking stranger with poor skills will need your air, but it is far from impossible.

Donating an octo or using a long hose/necklace rig is an easy way to reduce the OOG diver's task loading in an emergency situation. That little bit of extra help may be the difference between a good outcome and a poor outcome.

They say, "gear is no solution for a skills problem." I think that most divers would agree with that. However, I don't think that should be construed to mean that developing an unstoppable sub-aqua face punch and reg grab technique is superior to simply donating a reg that a frightened, unskilled diver can hang on to.

[Thalassamania]

I find this whole discussion amazing, even for this place. Despite assurances to the contrary, what I see is a cowboy attitude, and someone who walked into the bar looking for a fight.

No matter what you and your buddy have agreed to be comfortable with, you often aren't the only people around on a dive. OK, it isn't likely that a panicking stranger with poor skills will need your air, but it is far from impossible.

Donating an octo or using a long hose/necklace rig is an easy way to reduce the OOG diver's task loading in an emergency situation. That little bit of extra help may be the difference between a good outcome and a poor outcome.

They say, "gear is no solution for a skills problem." I think that most divers would agree with that. However, I don't think that should be construed to mean that developing an unstoppable sub-aqua face punch and reg grab technique is superior to simply donating a reg that a frightened, unskilled diver can hang on to.If you tend to dive off commercial boats or in crowded areas, I have to agree with you. But if you dive off your own boat in areas that are not frequented by other divers or off the shore where other don't go, that's another story.

[Blackwood]

one whom takes way, way, way more than the required amount of gear on every dive.


Well, the required gear for every dive is a tank of air and a way to get it out (a valve).

So people who dive with harnesses, regulators, masks and fins are 'gear haulers'?

[Matt S.]

If you tend to dive off commercial boats or in crowded areas, I have to agree with you. But if you dive off your own boat in areas that are not frequented by other divers or off the shore where other don't go, that's another story.

I can agree with that 100%. I am concerned for other divers, not the OP and his buddy. Rightly or not, other divers will have expectations about their gear--and then there is the skill issue. "Do it better" is not a contingency plan.

If they are off on their own, good for them. With anyone else sharing the site, it's reckless. We all have a responsibility to be a good buddy to anyone who needs us.

[Nemrod]

Cowboy, like taking an acronym proclaiming that only we are doing it right? I dunno, seems like the pool is getting full of brown stuff, Thal, let's head offshore.

I haven't had to save any strangers yet, well, lately anyways, but if I do they will have to make do with what I got or don't got, sorry. I be glad to give it to them though.

N, you are doing it wrong!

[Nemrod]

I can agree with that 100%. I am concerned for other divers, not the OP and his buddy. Rightly or not, other divers will have expectations about their gear--and then there is the skill issue. "Do it better" is not a contingency plan.

If they are off on their own, good for them. With anyone else sharing the site, it's reckless. We all have a responsibility to be a good buddy to anyone who needs us.

Your concern for others is to be applauded but your argument is without merit. Should free divers be required to carry a scuba tank around complete wih an octopus on a long hose just in case some stranger scuba diver happens upon him OOA? Now we are not only equipment dependent but stranger's equipment dependent, that is getting out in the Martian orbit to expect everybody to be equipped in some sort of conforming scuba uniform :rofl3:.

Nobody ever promised you a rose garden, if PadI did then they mislead you. I am not trying to be mean, it is just unrealistic to expect what you proposed. I will be glad to share my air but you will get it buddy breathing more than likely.

You have a good point, if you are diving with a group of people your equipment should meet their norm or at the very least they should understand how you differ. Thank you for that.

N

[Matt S.]

C'mon. Your argument that making a small effort to conform to widely recognized safety protocols is just like a free diver carrying a scuba tank is the ridiculous one.

Refuse to take that small step if you like, there are no scuba police to ticket you for not carrying another second stage. But you'll be earning the dirty looks you get on the dive boat, in my opinion.

[pittyyofool]

Pitty, in some cases, possibly this case, I would wander off on purpose, in fact, I would wander off to a different ocean.

After this I might start swimming towards your ocean.



At a incidence of 48.6 degrees light is reflected back into the water (or atmosphere) which is why we have the ring, I don't know, I just like the way it looks, like an Alice and Wonderland mirror to another dimension. Once the sun drops below the equivalent angle it is only the diffuse light, scattered light, of the atmosphere that lights our underwater world.

sounds like someone did there homework, angel of incidence is equal to the angel of reflection which is __?__ of refraction.


What I see is a cowboy attitude, and someone who walked into the bar looking for a fight. Only of he will not give my air back.



However, I don't think that should be construed to mean that developing an unstoppable sub-aqua face punch and reg grab technique is superior to simply donating a reg that a frightened, unskilled diver can hang on to.
I never said it was superior, just an alternative. My buddy (Matt) and I practiced it yesterday. IT WORKS he darn near bloodied my nose when I would not give his reg back. (it is less of a punch and more of a a hefty palm to the mask with a prying action on the reg to pull it out of the receivers jaws) If both parties buddy breath properly and trade back and forth like they are suppose to, it will not resort to this.



Well, the required gear for every dive is a tank of air and a way to get it out (a valve).
So people who dive with harnesses, regulators, masks and fins are 'gear haulers'?
How did you know that is how I learned to dive. When my friend Brent and I were about 8 we stole one of his dads air tanks and took it to the bottom of his pool and took turns turning the valve and inhaling from the jet of air until it ran dry(empty). Needles to say pops was not to happy that we got water in a steel tank...


I dunno, seems like the pool is getting full of brown stuff, Thal, let's head offshore.
Can I meet you guys out there?

[Matt S.]

"it is less of a punch and more of a a hefty palm to the mask with a prying action on the reg to pull it out of the receivers jaws"

My time in this thread has now been richly rewarded.

[LeadTurn_SD]

So here is the true question can anyone give me a valid reason why I should carry a "octo" on open water dives? And further more a situation where buddy breathing would not work, but an "octo" would. Please justify your reasoning and back it up with a story if possible. Or if you agree, leave a "Hell Yeah"...

"Hell.... Maybe???" :D

pittyyofool: For your original question, the obvious answer (for me) is NO. An octo is not really needed. The vast majority of my dives have been made without them... because the vast majority of my dives were almost 30 years ago. I was trained in buddy breathing, so were all of my buddies. If that is the case with you and your buddies, have at it.

But (and like my butt, it has become a really BIG but ;) ): Octos are better. I know how to buddy breath, my main dive partner (my wife) also was trained how to buddy breath, but we both have octos anyway. I feel it is a more efficient and safer way to share air. Having to rig an octo (in my case a bungied 2nd and 5' long hose primary) seems like a small compromise to make.

I'd really prefer not to have the extra 2nd stage, but haul it along under my chin "just in case".

Have fun, octo or octo-less, it is really you and your buddy's decision. I just feel like I'd be be best able to assist an OOA diver (ESPECIALLY A FRESHLY MINTED ONE) with an octo.

Best wishes.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Is it not notice or not care? Some people are fine diving by the "same day same ocean, I have a buddy somewhere" rule. Solo diving can be fun, but it should be in the plan not to reconvene after separation.

In which case you DON'T have a buddy at all ... but as long as you're both in agreement with this approach I don't see a problem with it. It's when one diver decides unilaterally to make it the plan without telling the other that the problems begin.

In the past few years we've had at least two diver deaths and one significant change to dive park rules because someone decided to take this approach and things didn't go just exactly right ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[NWGratefulDiver]

You have a good point, if you are diving with a group of people your equipment should meet their norm or at the very least they should understand how you differ. Thank you for that.

N



Refuse to take that small step if you like, there are no scuba police to ticket you for not carrying another second stage. But you'll be earning the dirty looks you get on the dive boat, in my opinion.


Not necessarily so.

When you're sharing a dive boat with people who are not your dive buddy, your only obligation is to let them know what your plan is ... and to respect the boat rules. If you are diving within those constraints, then going solo, diving minimalist, or however you choose to dive is really nobody's concern but your own.

The only thing you owe to the other people on the boat is to let them know what to expect of you in the event of an emergency. There is no requirement to stick to anybody else's idea of "normal".

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Nemrod]

C'mon. Your argument that making a small effort to conform to widely recognized safety protocols is just like a free diver carrying a scuba tank is the ridiculous one.

Refuse to take that small step if you like, there are no scuba police to ticket you for not carrying another second stage. But you'll be earning the dirty looks you get on the dive boat, in my opinion.

Oh, now we must "conform" and somehow I thought we had a free will and lived in a free country.

Maybe when I "free" dive I will carry a Spare Air for you guys who have two of everything and the kitchen sink and still think that strangers diving nearby should be your pack mule for extra air.

I think the situation is here that you are not actually reading the posts like the one Thal provided where he talked about diving from one's own boat, diving were there were no other people. Wake up there fellow, not everybody dives from cattle boats. I would as soon shoot a staple gun in my forehead as get on a cattle boat with you given your inflexibility. :lotsalove:

You can give me dirty looks 'till Hades freezes over, your needs are not my needs or concern. I am not in the scuba club, I go my own way.

Seriously, I realize you are just wanting to be a safe diver, good attitude, thank you for your serious desire to be a safe diver and concerned for others, not enough of that in the world today.

N

[Peter Guy]

Captain wrote
Those that did not train in the era before the octo and BC have no way of judging what is or is not being taught today versus what was taught in the past. Many have said, and I tend to agree that OW and AOW today is less than equal to the one and only certification (Scuba Diver)available then. Well Captain, I think I qualify as one who IS able to judge by this standard -- at least how today's training compares to what I had 40+ years ago.

Disclaimer -- I have a very small database from which to comment -- I only took one Scuba class 43 years ago at my University. I heard about my dad's NAUI class. I only have been involved with a few classes the past 4 years -- PADI, NAUI, UTD, GUE, TDI and only a few instructors. I am NOT the expert that Thal is for example. This is just from my personal experience.

What was "better" 40 years ago -- "Watermanship" training -- especially the time spent on learning "The Art of Skin...Diving" which was used as a precursor to "The Art of...Scuba Diving." As a result of spending 4 weeks (as I recall) working on our skin diving skills, the mask skills that cause so much trouble with new divers was bypassed.

I honestly don't remember much, if anything, being "taught" about "buoyancy control" but since we had nothing to control our buoyancy except our lungs there probably wasn't all that much to be taught. In the pool you were more-or-less neutral anyway so it wasn't a big deal -- swim down, swim up -- don't hold your breath on the way up.

I definitely wasn't taught anything about "protecting the environment" while diving -- to the contrary, picking coral, collecting shells, grabbing turtles was part of what we did.

And I really could go on.

This is NOT to say that the current OW/AOW classes wouldn't create more competent divers if the instructors actually took the time to establish "mastery" of the basic skills in addition to really working on trim and buoyancy. But, at least in my experience, there is a lot more to learn to be a competent diver today than there was 40 years ago.

I can't help but think that some people may be looking at "The Golden Age" through some foggy lenses.

[captain]

But you'll be earning the dirty looks you get on the dive boat, in my opinion.

I never have.

[muddiver]

Ok, how about some not-so-long-ago trained divers that use SCUBA on a regular basis, are better prepared than most newly certified divers, can and do dive recreationally yet are not trained with equipment that includes a second second stage reulator.

Any one care to guess who that might be, and how they are the latest generation of SCUBA divers in the longest and oldest line of SCUBA training agencies?

[captain]

Ok, how about some not-so-long-ago trained divers that use SCUBA on a regular basis, are better prepared than most newly certified divers, can and do dive recreationally yet are not trained with equipment that includes a second second stage reulator.

Any one care to guess who that might be, and how they are the latest generation of SCUBA divers in the longest and oldest line of SCUBA training agencies?

That might just be the U S Navy.

[Walter]

Muddiver, I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to communicate.

[muddiver]

captain wins the prise.

The U.S. Navy still uses doubles without BC and there is no safe-second/octo/redundant 2nd stage on the rig they dive. Most Navy trained divers dive recreationally and their training exceeds the standards of any recreational training agency.

So, if a octo is sooooooo important, why does the Navy dive with out them?

[captain]

Captain wrote Well Captain, I think I qualify as one who IS able to judge by this standard -- at least how today's training compares to what I had 40+ years ago.

I honestly don't remember much, if anything, being "taught" about "buoyancy control" but since we had nothing to control our buoyancy except our lungs there probably wasn't all that much to be taught. In the pool you were more-or-less neutral anyway so it wasn't a big deal -- swim down, swim up -- don't hold your breath on the way up.

.

That is exactly the point we older diver try make. There was nothing to teach because it it came naturally in the course of learning to dive. Today's divers are taught to depend on the BC in every situation and they don't learn that it is a helpful tool in some instances and not needed at all in others. Plus the fact that most come out of a class having been taught to strap on X number of pounds of lead whether it the correct amount or not and use the BC as an elevator.

[pittyyofool]

captain wins the prise.

The U.S. Navy still uses doubles without BC and there is no safe-second/octo/redundant 2nd stage on the rig they dive. Most Navy trained divers dive recreationally and their training exceeds the standards of any recreational training agency.

So, if a octo is sooooooo important, why does the Navy dive with out them?

If I were to assume, I would say it is because they are taught to rely on there training, be problem solvers, and make due with what they have. And not rely on accessories and wish they were in a golden bath tub.

[NWGratefulDiver]

captain wins the prise.

The U.S. Navy still uses doubles without BC and there is no safe-second/octo/redundant 2nd stage on the rig they dive. Most Navy trained divers dive recreationally and their training exceeds the standards of any recreational training agency.

So, if a octo is sooooooo important, why does the Navy dive with out them?


If I were to assume, I would say it is because they are taught to rely on there training, be problem solvers, and make due with what they have. And not rely on accessories and wish they were in a golden bath tub.

If I were to guess it would because they are subjected to "cost is no object" training ... the taxpayer pays for it ... their "mission" is different (they aren't training to go on vacation) ... they have direct access to an on-board hyperbaric chamber (making ESAs a lot more acceptable), and because like any other military personnel, a certain percentage of casualties are considered "acceptable".

There really isn't any point in comparing military training to civilian training ... the "ground rules" are just too different.

And FWIW - if some of the fellows coming out of Whidbey Island Naval Air Station and Fort Lewis are anything to go by, military trained divers really don't transition well into decent civilian dive buddies ... it's simply not what they were trained for ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[muddiver]

Yes, you are entirely correct. Boyles law, Charles law, the general gas law, thermodynamics amd hydrodynamic just don't apply to recreational diving, therefore the "ground rules" are entirely different.

[Matt S.]

The only thing you owe to the other people on the boat is to let them know what to expect of you in the event of an emergency. There is no requirement to stick to anybody else's idea of "normal".


It's not a requirement, and I do not wish we had scuba police... but I do think it's a better approach to be configured similarly to what Joe Diver would expect, if you'll be diving around him.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Now you're just being obtuse.


Yes, you are entirely correct. Boyles law, Charles law, the general gas law, thermodynamics amd hydrodynamic just don't apply to recreational diving, therefore the "ground rules" are entirely different.

Do you honestly think that learning the physics of diving is all there is to it?



The U.S. Navy still uses doubles without BC and there is no safe-second/octo/redundant 2nd stage on the rig they dive. Most Navy trained divers dive recreationally and their training exceeds the standards of any recreational training agency.

So, if a octo is sooooooo important, why does the Navy dive with out them?

And do you believe that all divers should dive doubles with no BC or safe-second?

Yes ... the ground rules are completely different.

Ask yourself how much it costs ... in terms of money, resources and time ... to train a Navy diver?

What is the purpose (mission) of that training?

What is the focus?

What is the average age and physical condition of the typical Navy dive student?

How much of that training is relevent to civilian vacation diving?

Yes ... the ground rules are completely different.

What your suggesting is akin to saying that everyone who wants to learn how to fly an airplane needs to take F16 training ... after all, aerodynamics is aerodynamics ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[NWGratefulDiver]

It's not a requirement, and I do not wish we had scuba police... but I do think it's a better approach to be configured similarly to what Joe Diver would expect, if you'll be diving around him.

I'll have to disagree ... I have no desire to wear a jacket BC and standard short-hose reg when I go on tropical trips. Nor do I care to add a snorkel to my configuration ... unless I'm planning to go snorkeling during the trip.

I DO, however, make an effort to make sure those I'm diving with are aware of how to share air with me, should the need arise.

And since most tropicals DM's have never seen a backplate/long hose before, I DO ask them to please not mess with my gear while it's on the boat.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[muddiver]

Having an extra second stage clipped to your right hand side harness strap fulfills the basic premis of current SCUBA training for a "safe second".

The fact that it is routed from a pony bottle, or a 40 cu back-up, or a 72 cu bail-out or off your primary is inmaterial. Most any recreationally trained SCUBA diver would go to that extra regulator if they were looking for air (with the exception of the totally panic stricken OOA diver sinero that someone will bring up).

[NWGratefulDiver]

Having an extra second stage clipped to your right hand side harness strap fulfills the basic premis of current SCUBA training for a "safe second".


Not necessarily ... currently acceptable training also includes inline safe-seconds (AirII or SS1, for example), as well as bungeed necklaces. Both are commonly taught and used in my area.

The "golden triangle" method is unique to one specific training agency ... and taught by other agencies as one acceptable manner of delivering air to an OOA diver.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Matt S.]

I'll have to disagree ... I have no desire to wear a jacket BC and standard short-hose reg when I go on tropical trips.

Hell, neither do I! "Similar" can mean a range of things. A reg that you can donate, whether it is your primary or a traditional octo, and ditchable weight that is easy for anyone to understand are all I am really thinking of.

[LiteHedded]

Having an extra second stage clipped to your right hand side harness strap fulfills the basic premis of current SCUBA training for a "safe second".

The fact that it is routed from a pony bottle, or a 40 cu back-up, or a 72 cu bail-out or off your primary is inmaterial. Most any recreationally trained SCUBA diver would go to that extra regulator if they were looking for air (with the exception of the totally panic stricken OOA diver sinero that someone will bring up).
it happens.
I've seen it happen

[muddiver]

Now you're just being obtuse.



Do you honestly think that learning the physics of diving is all there is to it?



And do you believe that all divers should dive doubles with no BC or safe-second?

Yes ... the ground rules are completely different.

Ask yourself how much it costs ... in terms of money, resources and time ... to train a Navy diver?

What is the purpose (mission) of that training?

What is the focus?

What is the average age and physical condition of the typical Navy dive student?

How much of that training is relevent to civilian vacation diving?

Yes ... the ground rules are completely different.

What your suggesting is akin to saying that everyone who wants to learn how to fly an airplane needs to take F16 training ... after all, aerodynamics is aerodynamics ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

The SCUBA portion of Navy Diver/Army Combat Swimmer/Marine Corps Force Recon training is nothing more than watermanship (loard help us if we have to train a recreational diver that), use of SCUBA equipment and confidence is the use of SCUBA equipment underwater. All of the other fun skills that military instructors throw in (which just happend to be in the YMCA and NAUI original training manuals and program) are to build or maintain endurance, phyisical fitness and help teach underwater survival. Therfore, I still agree with you that the "ground rules" are totally different and the basics of SCUBA diver training in the military has no bearing on the training process of recreational SCUBA.

As for the mission, focus and F16 vs. piper cub training you are referring to: The mission traning portions of the different military diving programs come after the SCUBA diver training. So I will clarify that I was referring to the Basic Diver training which is approximately 12 days of SCUBA training before the real militay-killers school starts.

[muddiver]

it happens.
I've seen it happen

I never said it didn't.

That is just the extream case granade that some throw when they want to divert the conversation.

[muddiver]

Not necessarily ... currently acceptable training also includes inline safe-seconds (AirII or SS1, for example), as well as bungeed necklaces. Both are commonly taught and used in my area.

The "golden triangle" method is unique to one specific training agency ... and taught by other agencies as one acceptable manner of delivering air to an OOA diver.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sorry, I was refering to the previous post by Matt S. who is pushing the training standard by that "one" spacific training agency.

"currently acceptable training" under who's agency's rules? The rules that I must abide by are not necessarily interchangable with the rules you must abide by.

I am sorry, but the local accaptable techniques in the Pacif North West do not translate well throughout the rest of the diving community. As I can see on your profile you are a DIR type diver. I've never seen anyone like that in Hawaii and very few in So. California.

I'm not knocking how you dive or what you teach, because I cherry pick myself from all the different techniques and equipment.

[Matt S.]

I am not pushing PADI and I never mentioned the "golden triangle." I will try to restate my position as simply as possible.

If you are diving with just your buddies, do whatever you want.

If you are diving around a bunch of strangers of unknown training and skill levels, you are being a better emergency buddy to them if you have a reg to donate, and if that reg is in one of the places they have likely been trained to look for it. (eg, snatch it from the PADI triangle, or you donate your primary and use a necklaced or inflator-integrated backup.)

You aren't obligated to think about how to be a better buddy to a pack of strangers, but it's the decent thing to do.

[muddiver]

(Edit for clarity) If you are diving around a bunch of strangers of unknown training and skill levels, you are being a better emergency buddy to them if you have a reg to donate, and if that reg is in one of the places they have likely been trained to look for it. (eg, snatch it from the PADI triangle, or you donate your primary and use a necklaced or inflator-integrated backup.)

You aren't obligated to think about how to be a better buddy to a pack of strangers, but it's the decent thing to do.

That was my point. But, some people seem to think that a regulator slung around ones neck on an extreamly long hose is the norm in the diving community.

Other than one diver (a SCUBA board regular) and SCUBA board, I have never seen the long hose set-up in use other than for deep cave penitration or wreck diving.

Back to the original question, IMHO (ooo I used a blogger acronym) the safe-second/octo is just a convenient method of sharing air to help a second diver to the surface. It is not a necessary item of equipment that can be replaced with a number of other techniques.

[Thalassamania]

Yes MD, the answer to the OP, "Is safe second really needed?" is simple: "no."

[pittyyofool]

if some of the fellows coming out of Whidbey Island Naval Air Station and Fort Lewis are anything to go by, military trained divers really don't transition well into decent civilian dive buddies ... it's simply not what they were trained for ...
One of my dads friends is an EX Navy Seal. He is an @ss hole to some people (dept. of fish and gain) but other wise he is a nice guy, just don't question his logic. He comes with us to our yearly week long lobster trip. He is a great diver and excellent hunter. I have learned allot from Steve like the "same day same ocean, I have a buddy somewhere" rule. Another amazing thing about this guy is he, just knows where everyone in the group is under water at all times. If navy divers posses this super human skill. (I don't know if they all do.) Do they need to "fit in" and stay near there buddy?


Now you're just being obtuse.

Do you honestly think that learning the physics of diving is all there is to it?
aren't the physics the base that the skill was developed to compensate for.


And do you believe that all divers should dive doubles with no BC or safe-second?
no but it is possible.


Yes ... the ground rules are completely different.

Ask yourself how much it costs ... in terms of money, resources and time ... to train a Navy diver?
the navy also has $1000 toilet seats in an outhouse. You can't compare government cash to civilian cash.


What is the purpose (mission) of that training?
to stay alive and complete your task safely with out incident, for you or your team. Nobody likes to fill out incident reports.


What is the focus?
same as above

What is the average age and physical condition of the typical Navy dive student?
most likely 18-25 and in great shape. What does that have to do with ones capability to learn and do a basic skill. Brain power is not greatly effected with aging or fatness.
where the young great physical shape helps is in lower nitrogen absorbtion because nitrogen loves fat cells.


How much of that training is relevent to civilian vacation diving?
everything that is non-combat orientated.


Yes ... the ground rules are completely different.
really?

[Nemrod]

Captain wrote Well Captain, I think I qualify as one who IS able to judge by this standard -- at least how today's training compares to what I had 40+ years ago.

Disclaimer -- I have a very small database from which to comment -- I only took one Scuba class 43 years ago at my University. I heard about my dad's NAUI class. I only have been involved with a few classes the past 4 years -- PADI, NAUI, UTD, GUE, TDI and only a few instructors. I am NOT the expert that Thal is for example. This is just from my personal experience.

What was "better" 40 years ago -- "Watermanship" training -- especially the time spent on learning "The Art of Skin...Diving" which was used as a precursor to "The Art of...Scuba Diving." As a result of spending 4 weeks (as I recall) working on our skin diving skills, the mask skills that cause so much trouble with new divers was bypassed.

I honestly don't remember much, if anything, being "taught" about "buoyancy control" but since we had nothing to control our buoyancy except our lungs there probably wasn't all that much to be taught. In the pool you were more-or-less neutral anyway so it wasn't a big deal -- swim down, swim up -- don't hold your breath on the way up.

I definitely wasn't taught anything about "protecting the environment" while diving -- to the contrary, picking coral, collecting shells, grabbing turtles was part of what we did.

And I really could go on.

This is NOT to say that the current OW/AOW classes wouldn't create more competent divers if the instructors actually took the time to establish "mastery" of the basic skills in addition to really working on trim and buoyancy. But, at least in my experience, there is a lot more to learn to be a competent diver today than there was 40 years ago.

I can't help but think that some people may be looking at "The Golden Age" through some foggy lenses.

Also a continuously active diver for 43 years here and I WAS taught buoyancy skills among many other things no longer taught and the rest I picked up along the way, don't need an instructor anymore, don't have a LDS, don't wanna be a DM. Did they teach you to cinch that waist strap down, lol, ;)? It is OK to learn from the school of experience and hard knocks.


N

[DaleC]

That was my point. But, some people seem to think that a regulator slung around ones neck on an extreamly long hose is the norm in the diving community. Other than one diver (a SCUBA board regular) and SCUBA board, I have never seen the long hose set-up in use other than for deep cave penitration or wreck diving.

One big point that is usually missed in most discussions is the geographic origin of the poster. In the PNW/W.C. some divers take a more technical approach to recreational diving as they have to contend with the temps, current and low vis. Of four regular buddies I have, three of us use the longhose config. (and none of us are tech divers), 2 use canlights and all have redundant air sources.
It would also go a long way to explain why northern divers are less "enthused" by a minimalist rig. To us it is just not applicable. The closest one could come to minimalist reasonably would be a Hogarthian rig.


I have learned allot from Steve like the "same day same ocean, I have a buddy somewhere" rule. Another amazing thing about this guy is he, just knows where everyone in the group is under water at all times.

Again, geography is everything. In clear vis maybe one can guestimate where everyone is but in our vis one long blink and you could/would be unintentionally solo. That's the reason we can't dive your way. We want to carry big lights (better buddy contact), redundant air sources (so we don't have to ESA into ripping currents or boat traffic) etc...


I never have.

I think attitude is everything Captain. I originally posted harshly here because it sounded like an ego trip more than an equipment discussion. If one enjoys diving their rig of choice, conveys their enthusiasm to others in a positive way and doesn't "rub it in their faces" there really isn't much of a problem. Most people are curious but unsure as the rig goes against what they've be taught is safe (just like soloing). Be polite, take the time to educate others and most people will respond positively. It doesn't matter if it's a vintage, minimalist, HOG or DIR rig.

[Slonda828]

I can agree with that 100%. I am concerned for other divers, not the OP and his buddy. Rightly or not, other divers will have expectations about their gear--and then there is the skill issue. "Do it better" is not a contingency plan.

If they are off on their own, good for them. With anyone else sharing the site, it's reckless. We all have a responsibility to be a good buddy to anyone who needs us.

You sound like Iceman from Topgun.

[Slonda828]

and because like any other military personnel, a certain percentage of casualties are considered "acceptable".
(Grateful Diver)

My God man, were you ever in the military? I don't know what books you've read, but I was an officer in the military and I can tell you from experience that there is no such thing as "acceptable" when it comes to casualties. Maybe the news tells you that, but I sure as hell never felt that way about my men. I do not speak for the entire military, but I did not know any leader who was willing to accept a fellow serviceman's death. You should be careful what you say, there are quite a few of us around this board, and I for one do not take kindly to things like what you said.

[captain]

My God man, were you ever in the military? I don't know what books you've read, but I was an officer in the military and I can tell you from experience that there is no such thing as "acceptable" when it comes to casualties. Maybe the news tells you that, but I sure as hell never felt that way about my men. I do not speak for the entire military, but I did not know any leader who was willing to accept a fellow serviceman's death. You should be careful what you say, there are quite a few of us around this board, and I for one do not take kindly to things like what you said.

Knowing that casualties will most likely occur is entirely different than saying they are acceptable. We know people will be killed in auto accidents but that knowledge does not make it acceptable.
If you be so cold as to just put a monetary value on a soldier's training cost and time then losing that money and time to a casualty is unacceptable.

[NWGratefulDiver]

My God man, were you ever in the military? I don't know what books you've read, but I was an officer in the military and I can tell you from experience that there is no such thing as "acceptable" when it comes to casualties. Maybe the news tells you that, but I sure as hell never felt that way about my men. I do not speak for the entire military, but I did not know any leader who was willing to accept a fellow serviceman's death. You should be careful what you say, there are quite a few of us around this board, and I for one do not take kindly to things like what you said.



If you be so cold as to just put a monetary value on a soldier's training cost and time then losing that money and time to a casualty is unacceptable.

Now that is taking my statements just a bit too far out of context.



If I were to guess it would because they are subjected to "cost is no object" training ... the taxpayer pays for it ... their "mission" is different (they aren't training to go on vacation) ... they have direct access to an on-board hyperbaric chamber (making ESAs a lot more acceptable), and because like any other military personnel, a certain percentage of casualties are considered "acceptable".

There really isn't any point in comparing military training to civilian training ... the "ground rules" are just too different.


I was responding to someone who was comparing military scuba training with recreational training.

Would you agree, perhaps, that a soldier's scuba training is a bit more expensive than the typical recreational scuba diver is either willing or able to pay for?

Would you suggest that casualties are NOT part of typical military operations, or planning?

I think some of you guys are ... as previously noted ... just looking for a bar fight.

What say we stick to the topic, with a bit less of the "attacking the messenger" tactics?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Nemrod]

There are internet experts for sure, Captain is not one of them, owned his own shop, professionally skippered his own boat for hire, licensed skipper, been a diver all of his life, master mechanic, master diver by deeds, not by some series of boutique courses. At some point the dogma must bend to reality, there are those who are simply trying to point out that you can dive however you wish but in fact much of the equipment we use today is not really needed in all circumstances and a diver who chooses not to use all of the extra stuff is not dangerous or foolish, there is a different path for those who seek minimalism. If this challenges some divers, causes others to become angry and give "evil" stares etc, just take a Prozac and learn to deal with the fact that there are people who will never "conform" ever.

N

[Teamcasa]

There are internet experts for sure, Captain is not one of them, owned his own shop, professionally skippered his own boat for hire, licensed skipper, been a diver all of his life. At some point the dogma must bend to reality, there are those who are simply trying to point out that you can dive however you wish
Agreed.


but in fact much of the equipment we use today is not really needed in all circumstances and a diver who chooses not to use all of the extra stuff is not dangerous or foolish, there is a different path for those who seek minimalism. If this challenges some divers, causes others to become angry and give "evil" stares etc, just take a Prozac and learn to deal with the fact that there are people who will never "conform" ever.

It does not challenge me. If you like diving in a minimalist fashion it is fine with me. I think the challenges came more from those who think that diving with an octo is somehow dangerous and displays some lack of basic training.

I dive mostly here in SoCal where the water is colder, the vis if unpredictable and current come up or changes without so much as a courtesy call. We take the added precaution of an octo and some dive with a redundant air supply. We like it that way. You dive the way you guys like and so do we.

The basic question has been asked and answered.
If you want to expand on the merits of minimalist diving in tropical conditions vs cold water, go for it - in a new thread.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Like Dave said ... dive however you like.

What some of you guys seem to be doing is taking the position that anybody who doesn't dive the minimalist style is relying on gear to solve a deficiency in skills.

I don't think that's the case at all. Nor do I think you need to use that logic to rationalize your own choices.

Whatever floats your boat ... and all that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Matt S.]

"Boutique" courses? Wow. Way to insult 99% of the world's divers. This thread has turned into a flaming wreck.

- Iceman

[pittyyofool]

wrecks don't burn underwater.

I am not insulated at all. by the term "Boutique" courses, I think it is appropriate. Who said you need a plastic card to display your knowledge. there are other ways of learning it. I have a truck load of 20cent plastic cards saying I know one thing or the other. but to tell you the truth I knew and had done 90% of that stuff before I ever took a class for it. The only reason I have cards above jr.open water diver, is because when I was 17 one of my buddies was a young instructor. when I turned 18 he handed me the test for almost every class and told me to fill them out. (I passed all but nitrox, which he thought me later) (after the tests he also loaned me all his books and said read them) We went on about 5-6 dives to practice the skills that I had not yet naturally exhibited. After the dives he charged me $20 for each card, and I was in AI training just like that. IMO cards are there to make you feel better, just like a lot of other things we have.

-Goose

[Thalassamania]

If you really feel the need to get into the worth, or worthlessness, of the PADI Master Diver recognition progam, a thread (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/q-scuba-certification-agencies/282278-padi-master-diver-rating.html)exists for that purpose. Take it there, please.

[Nemrod]

Agreed.



It does not challenge me. If you like diving in a minimalist fashion it is fine with me. I think the challenges came more from those who think that diving with an octo is somehow dangerous and displays some lack of basic training.

I dive mostly here in SoCal where the water is colder, the vis if unpredictable and current come up or changes without so much as a courtesy call. We take the added precaution of an octo and some dive with a redundant air supply. We like it that way. You dive the way you guys like and so do we.

The basic question has been asked and answered.
If you want to expand on the merits of minimalist diving in tropical conditions vs cold water, go for it - in a new thread.

When I said "challenges" I should have said challenges the dogma (thinking) of some divers and agencies, thank you for pointing that out as being to generic and non specific. The rest I will stay with thank you.

I will leave it to the OP to determine when his thread is done.

N

[Nemrod]

"Boutique" courses? Wow. Way to insult 99% of the world's divers. This thread has turned into a flaming wreck.

- Iceman

Are you on fire :rofl3: what, your PadI Peak Buoyancy and Fish ID class not going well today or something :confused: Bad hair day I guess. :).

Hey, don't get wound up over nothing just because we are not going to do as you say, if it wasn't that it would be something else. :cool2: Got to give you something to be in a fuss over. Just trying to help out. :lotsalove:

We guys will dive the way we want to and you guys dive the way you want to, leave the "dirty" looks for something else. Sounds fair. But it never works that way, always gotta be some busybody about minding to others business and trying to force conformation to their set of rules, thus the origin of the thread and our fundamental disagreements.

Mars will not be as large as the moon to the naked eye on August 27, 2008. That is an email hoax that goes back to 2006 and then before that as long ago as 1986. So, if you are standing outside waiting to see Mars as large as a full moon, you will be about as disappointed as you will be if you expect to see me show up for the PadI Drift Diver and Scuba Scooter boutique class with you. I would as soon go to a nudist colony for the extra obese and go scuba diving with a Spare Air strapped to my aXX.

I am sorry, I should not pick at you, I know you are just playing hard to get ;).

N

[muddiver]

Wow! Someone's on a roll.

[muddiver]

Like Dave said ... dive however you like.

What some of you guys seem to be doing is taking the position that anybody who doesn't dive the minimalist style is relying on gear to solve a deficiency in skills.

I don't think that's the case at all. Nor do I think you need to use that logic to rationalize your own choices.

Whatever floats your boat ... and all that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Ok, I think that we are a lot closer to being on the same wave length here. I don't disparage the use of an octo, I just pointed out that it is just not the ONLY way to solve the problem of an OOA.

Unfortunatly, after talking to the local instructor/LDS owner, it seems that having one on your rig is being mandated by some boat operators. At least his story was that he was told he could not dive from the boat without one.

So much for you dive your way, and I'll dive mine when service providers start enforcing one standard of diving.

[The Kraken]

"Is safe second (octo) really needed for open water diving?"

No. . .

. . . if one bases the definition of "need" as a device without which an open water dive cannot be either initiated or accomplished.

Can you make a dive without one, yes, pure and simple.

However, you may not be able to find a dive buddy, but you can dive without one of those also.

the K

[Thalassamania]

However, you may not be able to find a dive buddy, but you can dive without one of those also.

the KYour ability to demonstrate that you are able to dive without one might move you up the list of people that Nemrod, Mud Diver and I (and at least several others) would be willing to buddy with.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Ok, I think that we are a lot closer to being on the same wave length here. I don't disparage the use of an octo, I just pointed out that it is just not the ONLY way to solve the problem of an OOA.

Unfortunatly, after talking to the local instructor/LDS owner, it seems that having one on your rig is being mandated by some boat operators. At least his story was that he was told he could not dive from the boat without one.

So much for you dive your way, and I'll dive mine when service providers start enforcing one standard of diving.

Well, the way around that one is to get your own boat. When you own it, you decide what the rules are. That's always been how it works on boats.

There are some locations where City Council members decide that anyone diving in their town needs to wear a snorkel ... or dive with a buddy ... or whatever rules make sense to them. And those folks often aren't even divers (they're listening to some insurance salesman or some such).

We've got a local shop owner who once told me that it's a FEDERAL LAW that you have to have one of those silly banner stickers on your nitrox tank ... and that the ones I have that say GEEZER GAS don't count.

The usual recourse is to take your business elsewhere.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Matt S.]

Nemrod, it's hard to have a serious discussion when you are more interested in being cute than serious. We're going in circles anyway.

If you want to talk smack about PADI, be my guest. I don't have a dog in that fight.

[pittyyofool]

"Is safe second (octo) really needed for open water diving?"
No. . . Can you make a dive without one, yes, pure and simple.
However, you may not be able to find a dive buddy, but you can dive without one of those also.

Some how I have managed to find a few buddies locally here in So. Cal that are fine with no octo, and one is on her way (2months) to being a Padi instructor. I think a few people in this thread would be more than delighted to dive with someone that does not carry an octo.


There are some locations where City Council members decide that anyone diving in their town needs to wear a snorkel ... or dive with a buddy ... or whatever rules make sense to them. And those folks often aren't even divers (they're listening to some insurance salesman or some such).
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Laguna Beach use to be that way, until it was turned over by a great number of divers that wrote city council. It is not like the law kept anyone from solo diving any way. If a lifeguard "threatened us by calling the cops" most would simply reply come find me, I'm surfacing somewhere else.


Nemrod, it's hard to have a serious discussion when you are more interested in being cute than serious. We're going in circles anyway.
sounds like a personal problem to me.
Its not our issue If you cant relax and have a good fun time.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Nemrod, it's hard to have a serious discussion when you are more interested in being cute than serious. We're going in circles anyway.

If you want to talk smack about PADI, be my guest. I don't have a dog in that fight.


sounds like a personal problem to me.
Its not our issue If you cant relax and have a good fun time.

It's hard to relax and have a good fun time when people are trying to stomp on your toes.

On the other hand, I decided about a hundred replies back that this thread was never meant to be serious.

What can I say ... I'm slow sometimes ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[LeadTurn_SD]

One big point that is usually missed in most discussions is the geographic origin of the poster.....

Good point DaleC.

And "Mea Culpa" on a couple occasions for sure.

I'm one of those despicable "warm water divers", and what works here in Hawaii may not in the "cold, dark" places of the world. I have to remind myself of that when posting.

Best wishes.

[Slonda828]

Now that is taking my statements just a bit too far out of context.



I was responding to someone who was comparing military scuba training with recreational training.

Would you agree, perhaps, that a soldier's scuba training is a bit more expensive than the typical recreational scuba diver is either willing or able to pay for?

Would you suggest that casualties are NOT part of typical military operations, or planning?

I think some of you guys are ... as previously noted ... just looking for a bar fight.

What say we stick to the topic, with a bit less of the "attacking the messenger" tactics?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'll make you a deal. If you stick to things you know about, I will as well. You do not know the military, and I do not know tech diving. I do not profess knowledge of tech diving, so you should keep your ideas of how the military "is" to yourself and not vent them in a public forum. I am not looking for a "bar fight", as I am not a 19 year old Private. I respect you, I've read your articles, and you have taught me (by proxy) a few things about gas management. You are a smart, experienced instructor so with all the respect in the world, please do not speak about things of which you have no genuine knowledge and then back-peddle. It's okay though, I'm sure you didn't think you would piss anyone off, and I am letting it go as of right....now.

[Slonda828]

"Boutique" courses? Wow. Way to insult 99% of the world's divers. This thread has turned into a flaming wreck.

- Iceman

I love the fact that you have a genuinely good natured sense of humor!:rofl3:

[NWGratefulDiver]

I'll make you a deal. If you stick to things you know about, I will as well. You do not know the military, and I do not know tech diving. I do not profess knowledge of tech diving, so you should keep your ideas of how the military "is" to yourself and not vent them in a public forum. I am not looking for a "bar fight", as I am not a 19 year old Private. I respect you, I've read your articles, and you have taught me (by proxy) a few things about gas management. You are a smart, experienced instructor so with all the respect in the world, please do not speak about things of which you have no genuine knowledge and then back-peddle. It's okay though, I'm sure you didn't think you would piss anyone off, and I am letting it go as of right....now.

Tell ya what ... we have a deal under one condition ... hold yourself and others in here to the same standard when y'all go off blathering about DIR and PADI when, in fact, you ... and they ... don't know what you're talking about.

If you're pissed off it's because you choose to be ... and I really ain't responsible for your anger management issues.

And if you think my articles are about tech diving you know less about diving than you think you do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[DaleC]

Best wishes.

and to you my freind :)

One thing I love about diving is that it is a sport/pastime/activity/obsession that allows for so much expansion. I'm the kind of guy who likes to tinker and often takes apart a perfectly good wheel so I can re invent it. I would not want every diver to dive the same way or with the same gear as the SI's (life) might get boring and I would have to focus on other things like my family and career.

[muddiver]

Well, the way around that one is to get your own boat. When you own it, you decide what the rules are. That's always been how it works on boats.

There are some locations where City Council members decide that anyone diving in their town needs to wear a snorkel ... or dive with a buddy ... or whatever rules make sense to them. And those folks often aren't even divers (they're listening to some insurance salesman or some such).

We've got a local shop owner who once told me that it's a FEDERAL LAW that you have to have one of those silly banner stickers on your nitrox tank ... and that the ones I have that say GEEZER GAS don't count.

The usual recourse is to take your business elsewhere.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Very true, but I am still trying to figure out how to get a 20' whaler in my carry on luggage for my trip to Fiji? Any suggestions?

"Geezer Gas" that's a good one. I was looking at the "This is not YOUR tank" and "VooDoo Gas" tank stickers from Airspeedpress.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Very true, but I am still trying to figure out how to get a 20' whaler in my carry on luggage for my trip to Fiji? Any suggestions?

LOL ... how about an inflatable kayak ... :D



"Geezer Gas" that's a good one. I was looking at the "This is not YOUR tank" and "VooDoo Gas" tank stickers from Airspeedpress.

I've got some of those too ... but our local club had some special "Geezer Gas" stickers made. They contain all the appropriate verbiage (May contain gases other than air) but some LDS owners don't have much of a sense of humor ... :depressed:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Nemrod]

Very true, but I am still trying to figure out how to get a 20' whaler in my carry on luggage for my trip to Fiji? Any suggestions?

"Geezer Gas" that's a good one. I was looking at the "This is not YOUR tank" and "VooDoo Gas" tank stickers from Airspeedpress.

If you figure out how to get your 20 foot Whaler in a suitcase you let me in on it. I have tried packing my Outrage but it seems I am a few feet short and a little over weight limit.

On my boat you can use any gear you like any way you like as long as the tanks have boots on them. Oh, I am the boss, I bought the boat, I pay the gas, I get to say.

N

[pittyyofool]

Very true, but I am still trying to figure out how to get a 20' whaler in my carry on luggage for my trip to Fiji? Any suggestions?
well a whaler doesn't have to be in one piece to float... you can always take it over in 50lb chucks.



"Geezer Gas" that's a good one. I was looking at the "This is not YOUR tank" and "VooDoo Gas" tank stickers from Airspeedpress.
I liked "geezer gas" as well. I was going to ask NWGratefulDiver where to get some stickers for my dad, but he already answered that. So can I order some NWGratefulDiver?

[NWGratefulDiver]

I liked "geezer gas" as well. I was going to ask NWGratefulDiver where to get some stickers for my dad, but he already answered that. So can I order some NWGratefulDiver?

It was a special order ... but I need some more anyway. I'll check and let you know if I can get some.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Blackwood]

I was looking at the "This is not YOUR tank" ... stickers from Airspeedpress.

Just slap on "ARGON: DO NOT BREATH[E]"

:D

[Nemrod]

You ought to be able to make your own, I make my own VIP stickers. I don't charge myself for a VIP either!

N

[NWGratefulDiver]

Here ya go ... GEEZER GAS stickers ...

Geezer Gas Nitrox Shop (http://www.cafepress.com/geezergas.186844337)

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[pittyyofool]

Just slap on "ARGON: DO NOT BREATH[E]"
:D

That will be sure to ruffle a few Feathers when you try to jump in to the water sucking on a bottle that says ARGON. Sounds fun, maybe I will try it. I could also get a few other good stickers to slap on there to like N2O,CO, NE, C10H5ClN2, along with the Argon sticker. See if anybody mentions my lack of an octo then?????

[muddiver]

You ought to be able to make your own, I make my own VIP stickers. I don't charge myself for a VIP either!

N

I would be interested in when you make those.