Long hose question

[Grajan]

I am switching to a long hose configuration but I REALLY do not like the idea of ANY sort of clip hanging off the side of my primary reg. Is there some alternative?

I was thinking of perhaps putting a small SS ring on the hose and attaching a clip permanently to the D ring. Are there other options?

Advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Waterborne]

I had an issue with the clip on my primary as well. I just envisioned this thing hitting me in the face all the time. Now, I don't even notice the clip at all. I used a small SS bolt snap and it works fine even with thick cold water gloves.
Why do you not want the clip on there? I'm sure there are other ways around it and I'd be interested to hear them.

[Doppler]

Grajan once bubbled...
I am switching to a long hose configuration but I REALLY do not like the idea of ANY sort of clip hanging off the side of my primary reg. Is there some alternative?

I was thinking of perhaps putting a small SS ring on the hose and attaching a clip permanently to the D ring. Are there other options?

Advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

Hey Grajan:

Small clip secured with a breakaway oring works best and you will get used to it I promise :)

Would suggest your "option" is not particularly neat or practical (I can clip my primary off one-handed... with your option it'll take two!

If you work with the smallest practical bolt snap for your "thermal configuration" and secure the clip so it can freely fall away from the mouthpiece, you'll soon forget it's even there.

Doppler

[Silverback]

Grajan once bubbled...
I was thinking of perhaps putting a small SS ring on the hose and attaching a clip permanently to the D ring. Are there other options?

Advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

I use the smal 1" SS d-ring on the hose and it works fine for me. I posistion it about 12 to 14 inches away from the reg so it actually sits behind my head when I'm using the reg. The large double dog clip I keep on the the d-ring in my suit pocket. I don't use it to secure the reg (I guess I could) when in deco, but more when I have to pass the reg off . this allows me to secure the reg to my buddy to lesson the chance of it pulling out when its being used. A possiblity when in current.

SB

[sasdasdaf]

i've never noticed it on a dive. it really doesn't get in your way.

[Pez de Diablo]

I have never noticed it. I did think I would, but again it's never been an issue.

Good luck with which ever system you use.

[jonnythan]

I've never noticed mine underwater.

[Grajan]

I will go with the small clip first and if it really bugs me (apparently it won't) I will come up with a plan 'B'.

how on earth do you secure the 'O' ring? I'm assuming you just double it through the clip loop and pass it over the hose end....

Has it been covered elsewhere?

[Wendy]

I use cave line to attach the clip to the hose insted of using the o-ring. If you can't find any PM me your address and I can mail you some.

[cyklon_300]

not an issue for anyone I know that has one...try using it for a few dives and you'll see. I prefer the cave line attachment technique.

[large_diver]

Grajan,

Yes -- you're correct on attaching the O-ring (although as Wendy points out, there are multiple ways of attaching it).

I use the way you have suggested as illustrated in the link below. Note that you need a larger size O-ring (I use one about the size of a quarter).

I'll also add my comment to those already offered -- once you get a clip on your primary hose, you won't notice it.

Good luck.

http://www.northeastdir.com/primaryoringclip.htm

[jonnythan]

I prefer the zip tie attachment method :D

[Braunbehrens]

I concur that you'll never feel the bolt snap. As for attaching snaps to equipment, there are two methods, break away, and permanent. IMO the long hose does not need a breakaway, so cave line is the way to go. The SPG DOES need a breakaway, so go with the O-ring method. Actually, for a while I was using a piece of innertube as the breakaway. It lasts longer. The O-rings would always break.

[wrongkey]

then here's a link to a reliable method:

http://www.mindspring.com/~toddleonard/caverig/howknot.html

The illustration is for attaching the clip to a backup light, but it works for attaching it to the hose also.

[Grajan]

As I have always known 'cave line' (I jump but I definitely don't cave).

Given that the para cord is kind of permanent (I cannot see the need for a breakaway here as it is only for on-deck management) it strikes me that the zip tie is the easiest way to go.

Why on the hose rather than the crimp? It would seem that this would adversley load the hose / crimp interface on deck.

[large_diver]

Perhaps it would be useful to provide some reasons for breakaway vs. non-breakaway...;-)

I feel that having the primary clip set-up "breakaway" style is important, since if you have an emergency where you need to switch back to it underwater while it is clipped off, you can always just break it off. I can see the need for this in various scenarios (I dive almost all cold water with heavy gloves, which affects my decision on this). Durability is one downside as mentioned above, although I have not had one break (I usually replace the O-ring at the beginning of each dive season).

I guess I could go both ways on the SPG (I have mine attached with cave line). Although you may need to get it free in an entanglement situation, the need to get it free would not be so urgent, making cave line adequate (since you can cut it free).

My $0.02.

[Grajan]

What are the circumstances where I might have my primary clipped off in the water?

I seem to be in one of two conditions a) breathing it or b) donating it.

Am I missing something (important...)?

[ckharlan66]

Grajan once bubbled...
What are the circumstances where I might have my primary clipped off in the water?

I seem to be in one of two conditions a) breathing it or b) donating it.

Am I missing something (important...)?

Stage bottles and Deco bottles that you are breathing off of or if you are in a OOA situation and are breathing your buddies air.

Chad

[Grajan]

First two don't apply but the third one makes sense.

[ckharlan66]

Grajan once bubbled...
First two don't apply but the third one makes sense.

but those were the ones off the top of my head......they don't apply to me either. :)

Chad

[Wendy]

You would have it clipped off while you are on the boat or transporting your gear so it doesn't get stepped on or smashed.

[Grajan]

But at that time a breakaway may be more of a problem than a benefit.

[Doppler]

Grajan once bubbled...
But at that time a breakaway may be more of a problem than a benefit.

When doing the benefits analysis for any piece of gear or gear mod, the primary question (and there are several more to follow) is usually: "Is this a benefit on the surface or is it a benefit when I am diving." The smarter money tends to be on the stuff that falls into the latter category... well, for dive gear.

Primary reg is clipped off during deco (when you're "finished" with your back gas and are breathing from a different reg.) Nice and neat, nothing to catch on the way back up the ladder. Etc. Etc.

[detroit diver]

When we do our valve drills, we clip off the primary to the right d-ring while breathing off the bungee'd reg. If for some reason your backup fails, or you can't get the valve on, it's REALY nice to have the primary on a breakaway.

[Munin]

You can breathe the primary when it is clipped off. Try it.

Breakaways are not necessary.

[Doppler]

detroit diver once bubbled...
When we do our valve drills, we clip off the primary to the right d-ring while breathing off the bungee'd reg. If for some reason your backup fails, or you can't get the valve on, it's REALY nice to have the primary on a breakaway.


THREAD HI-JACKED!

Hey Detroit... how come those random sentances mentioned in your signature often make sense? Is this like the infinite number of monkeys at some point typing the complete works of shakespeare or is this different? =-)

[detroit diver]

Munin once bubbled...
You can breathe the primary when it is clipped off. Try it.

Breakaways are not necessary.

I know you can. I just don't like to!:)

[detroit diver]

Doppler once bubbled...



THREAD HI-JACKED!

Hey Detroit... how come those random sentances mentioned in your signature often make sense? Is this like the infinite number of monkeys at some point typing the complete works of shakespeare or is this different? =-)

Random. Completely random.

I haven't finished the Shakespeare works yet....

[Braunbehrens]

large_diver once bubbled...
Perhaps it would be useful to provide some reasons for breakaway vs. non-breakaway...;-)

I feel that having the primary clip set-up "breakaway" style is important, since if you have an emergency where you need to switch back to it underwater while it is clipped off, you can always just break it off.

I guess I could go both ways on the SPG (I have mine attached with cave line). Although you may need to get it free in an entanglement situation, the need to get it free would not be so urgent, making cave line adequate (since you can cut it free).

My $0.02.

You definitely need a breakaway on the SPG. It's pretty common to get it tangled, and you do need to know how much gas you have. Also, I wouldn't want to go near that hose with my knife unless absolutely necessary. Another problem with it is that you can't see it to sort out any problems.




Munin once bubbled...
You can breathe the primary when it is clipped off. Try it.

Breakaways are not necessary.

I agree. Also, there are really no situations where you need to break it away. If you are doing drills, then simply turn your backup back on.




Grajan once bubbled...
Given that the para cord is kind of permanent (I cannot see the need for a breakaway here as it is only for on-deck management) it strikes me that the zip tie is the easiest way to go.

Why on the hose rather than the crimp? It would seem that this would adversley load the hose / crimp interface on deck.

Zip tie is a breakaway, not a permanent connection. Simply twist the hose and the zip tie will pop. Zip ties in this situation do not last as long as O-rings, because it's too easy to twist them off.

To attach the O-ring to the spg simpy remove the spg from the hose (or the hose from the 1st stage), bend the O-ring around the bolt snap, and run the hose through the two loops of the o-ring. Reassemble the hose and you are done.

I wouldn't use a breakaway where you don't need one, since this increases the likleyhood of dangling hoses and the accompanying entanglement hazard/reef damage.

[Grajan]

for the great help.

I am looking forward to trying my new configuration.

[detroit diver]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


......

I agree. Also, there are really no situations where you need to break it away. If you are doing drills, then simply turn your backup back on.

.....

For those of us not as proficient as you at turning on/off our valves- ie we're practicing to get better- then "simply turning on your backup" may not be the best choice, or even available.

What harm is caused by having th o-ring on the primary hose/reg?

[Braunbehrens]

detroit diver once bubbled...


For those of us not as proficient as you at turning on/off our valves- ie we're practicing to get better- then "simply turning on your backup" may not be the best choice, or even available.

What harm is caused by having th o-ring on the primary hose/reg?

I don't think it's a huge big deal. If you really feel that you need it, then by all means. The only downside to breakaways is that they, well, breakaway. This can cause a problem. Let's say you are OOA, and are breathing off your buddies long hose, but your breakaway o-ring is gone. Now your 7 ft sea anchor trails behind, and snags something...

Like I said, not a big hairy deal, not all that likely to cause problems, but if a breakaway is not needed, don't use it.

Eventually messing with the valves becomes easier and then you might want to consider changing it.

If you are on quest, check the archives, I seem to remember some back and forth on this a while back, with the final consensus being that a breakaway is not needed on the primary UNLESS you are diving a 'breather.

BTW, if you are doing valve drills you MUST have your buddy right in front of you, almost in your face, watching you, ready to donate at the drop of a hat. Make sure that if he just did a drill all his valves are open. I could just see a huge cluster developing if one person isn't all that comfortable getting to the valves, and the other isn't watching or has their own backup turned off etc.

BTW2. My valves used to be really hard to turn. I always wondered if I'd be able to get to the valve and turn it if it was an urgent situation. Well, I did a valve drill and forgot to turn the primary back on. I'm sure you are familiar with the situation, you just turned your backup off and now you have NO working reg. Let me tell you, never before was I that good at getting to the valve and turning it on ;-)

[large_diver]

Not that you are specifically referencing DIR here, but since you brought up Quest....(which I avoid like the plague).......

The GUE/DIR folks seem to go back and forth on this topic. The person who set up the primary breakaway pictured in the link I provided above has been through GUE Tech 1 and Cave 1 (taught by Fraser Purdon & David Rhea, respectively). Obviously the breakaway primary was endorsed at some time by GUE.....but of course, they have been known to change their minds sometimes...;-)

[patmandu]

Since it's my picture that seems to be causing the debate, I figured I'd jump in on this discussion.

The breakaway setup on the long hose (as pictured) was actually taught during my Tech1 course (but the class was ages ago in march of 2001).

I do remember the thread on Quest where GI3 said that a breakaway was only needed when diving a 'breather.

I used the same breakaway setup during my C1 course (as did my buddy) and we were not told to change it. I think it was pointed out and we were told we *could* tie it off with cave line or leave it the way it was.

Personally, I think the breakaway has merit as it's a viable gas source in case something happens. Maybe I'm being overly cautious but I want to be able to deploy the hose without having to fumble around with unsnapping a bolt in an emergency.

The bit about having the oring fail for some reason and you won't be able to do anything with the reg and it will be dragging around is pretty ridiculous. If the oring fails its an inconvience. Changing the o-ring at your annual service and brief inspections while washing gear is enough to make sure there is no indication of impending failure.

In the example of it dragging it around, the oring would have to fail and then the hose would have to magically jump from around my neck......

Maybe I'm wrong on this, and maybe they'll come take my cards away but I'm going to continue with the oring breakaway on the long hose.

[large_diver]

Thanks Patrick....better to hear it from the horse's mouth than from some tech wannabe like me ;-)

[Braunbehrens]

patmandu once bubbled...
I do remember the thread on Quest where GI3 said that a breakaway was only needed when diving a 'breather.

The bit about having the oring fail for some reason and you won't be able to do anything with the reg and it will be dragging around is pretty ridiculous.

Just curious then, if the o-ring failing is such a minor thing and really a non-issue, what is the argument against it?

[patmandu]

That's a good question that I don't think anyone really has an answer to.

I understand and agree with 99.9% of what DIR is and why things are the way they are in the system. And, I try my best to not stray from the system, as deviating from one thing causes CF's with other things.

That being said, I'm stumped why this is a big issue. Maybe it comes down to the fact that in a 100% DIR world you would never have to go to your clipped off long hose or donate it once it was parked and you were breathing off another bottle. But unfortunately I don't live in that DIR utopia.

I dive with students and I dive off boats that have recreational divers on them. I want to have the option to be able to deploy the long hose to anyone who might need gas in an instant. I don't want to be fooling around trying to unclip the hose during a higher stress event. Having the option of 'breaking away' the longhose is important to me. Additonally, in a DIR environment I have always pictured the possibility of being at my 20ft stop on 02 and having one of my buddies either lose buoyancy or have a problem on O2, in this case I want my long hose primary in his face in a heartbeat. I don't want to be thinking about unclipping and donating, I want to be thinking about sticking the regulator in his face.

What I don't get is why people think the o-ring is so flimsy and insecure and is prone to breaking. Have you ever tried to break one away? It takes some dedicated force and effort to break it. It's not going to just snap because you brush against it.

Since you asked the question, let me put it back to you. What is so dangerous about have a breakaway on the primary, yet having a breakaway on the SPG is a good thing? I would think that you wouldn't immediately notice your spg's oring disenegrating and having the hose dangling in the breeze. Whereas in the unlikely even that the long hose's oring falls apart you would notice it.

Maybe I'm just not thinking this through, and I'm hoping that you can enlighten me to why this is such a bad thing. I'm genuinely curious.

--Pat

[Doppler]

So many years ago, this guy I know is looking for spiritual guidance and he spends some time in a Carmalite Monastery. Well, after hearing about doves flying down from heaven and impregnating virgins, he has some questions framed for his next session with Father Ronan Murphy... his spiritual guide in this place. He posed his questions. "Father, how can this be? It defies logic... etc." Well Father Murphy shakes his head and explains it all by saying: "You simply have to have faith my son. God's word is infallible and what he tells us in the bible may be difficult for us to understand... but we must not question it but must have faith that it points us to the true way. There can be no deviation."



Doppler

[Braunbehrens]

Doppler once bubbled...
So many years ago, this guy I know is looking for spiritual guidance and he spends some time in a Carmalite Monastery.

I prefer diving Monastery beach in Carmel, but hey, to each his own.

As for the O-ring question...

I think it comes down to simply not having a breakaway in places where you don't need it. I understand your arguments for using it on the primary, but I don't agree with them 100%. First off, I have never had a problem getting my long hose off of the D-ring. It's pretty unlikely to get it tangled. The spg on the other hand, is pretty easy to tangle up when you've got a couple stages.

However, your previous comment about the primary staying put even without being clipped off is also true. I used to be lazy at times and not clip off the primary if I was going to go back to it soon (like during a valve drill). It never went anywhere.

I think that another reason for the no breakaway rule may be that if you are scootering in a cave for long distances things are a bit different. Something that is a minor annoyance could become more of a liability, and due to the length of the long hose it could get caught in a prop.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

BTW, Doppler, what we are doing is the opposite of what you are criticising in such a hilarious way. We are actually exploring the reasons behind the rules, as opposed to blindly accepting them. If we were, then this thread would have ended with me making a one line post "because Trey said so".

Speaking of which, I'll take a look at the archives and see if I can come up with a better reason than the one I gave.

BTW, I still don't think it's a big deal to have a breakaway there, as I said before.

I think there is stuff that is completely and 100% necessary to be DIR. There are other things that are not that big of a deal. This is one of them, as is, for example, the issue of brass bolt snaps. There is in fact a picture of the content of Trey's pockets and in one of them he has a brass double ender. SS is better, but using a brass bolt snap once in a while won't kill you.

[roakey]

I use bicycle innertube for all my hose-to-snap attachments. I took GUE Cave I in '99; JJ and Ted Cole went over my rig with a fine tooth comb and JJ looked carefully at how I setup the connections and neevr commented on them, so I assume they passed muster.

But as my subject line states, this is from a couple of years ago. Despite the claims form those who don't like DIR, DIR does evolve with time, so who knows, this may no longer be acceptable. But it works for me.

Roak

[Doppler]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


I prefer diving Monastery beach in Carmel, but hey, to each his own.

SNIPPED

BTW, Doppler, what we are doing is the opposite of what you are criticising in such a hilarious way. We are actually exploring the reasons behind the rules, as opposed to blindly accepting them. If we were, then this thread would have ended with me making a one line post "because Trey said so".



Not being critical. Glad you found my story hilarious... it is true. Also glad you're asking questions and searching for answers... that's the Hogarthian Way.

Doppler

P.S. Never been to Carmel... do they let non-christians dive there?

[GearHead]

patmandu once bubbled...
That's a good question that I don't think anyone really has an answer to.

I understand and agree with 99.9% of what DIR is and why things are the way they are in the system. And, I try my best to not stray from the system, as deviating from one thing causes CF's with other things.

That being said, I'm stumped why this is a big issue. Maybe it comes down to the fact that in a 100% DIR world you would never have to go to your clipped off long hose or donate it once it was parked and you were breathing off another bottle. But unfortunately I don't live in that DIR utopia.

I dive with students and I dive off boats that have recreational divers on them. I want to have the option to be able to deploy the long hose to anyone who might need gas in an instant. I don't want to be fooling around trying to unclip the hose during a higher stress event. Having the option of 'breaking away' the longhose is important to me. Additonally, in a DIR environment I have always pictured the possibility of being at my 20ft stop on 02 and having one of my buddies either lose buoyancy or have a problem on O2, in this case I want my long hose primary in his face in a heartbeat. I don't want to be thinking about unclipping and donating, I want to be thinking about sticking the regulator in his face.

What I don't get is why people think the o-ring is so flimsy and insecure and is prone to breaking. Have you ever tried to break one away? It takes some dedicated force and effort to break it. It's not going to just snap because you brush against it.


--Pat

Ya know, it's kind of refreshing to read someone actually thinking and reasoning through the logic behind why they do something a certain way. A breakaway on the primary makes a lot of sense to me.

Regarding the specific type of breakaway attachment to use, I currently have an o-ring, but I like the way that my wife has her primary rigged. She uses the smallest, thinnest type of zip-tie which stays nicely on the crimp-ridge of the hose, and still easy to break. My o-ring has a tendency to slip down the hose occasionally, so I may add a zip-tie through the o-ring. I think it would be easier to re-rig that way (don't have to remove the second stage), and still breakaway.

My SPG is connected with a thick zip-tie and cave line.