Medical Question - is there a Dr. in the house?

[jefffalcone]

A friend of mine is on a very strong anabolic steroid called trenbolone. He is planning a dive trip. This seems very dangerous to me. I am no expert, but as I understand it one of the ways that steroids help you build muscle is buy helping your muscle tissue to retain nitrogen. Is there anyone with more knowlege than me who knows the actualy dangers of this?

[Garrobo]

Go to DAN and ask the question. Most of the foks on this website aren't medical people except for one or two maybe.

[bleeb]

You might want to PM a moderator and ask them to move this thread to the Dive Medicine (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/diving-medicine/) section, where more doctors (and other knowledgeable types) hang out more consistently, and would be more likely to see it.

[jefffalcone]

Thanks for the advice garrabo. I haven't been around for a while. glad to see you're still here to tell everyone on here that they don't know what they're talking about. j.k

But seriously thanks for the suggestion.

[jefffalcone]

You might want to PM a moderator and ask them to move this thread to the Dive Medicine (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/diving-medicine/) section, where more doctors (and other knowledgeable types) hang out more consistently, and would be more likely to see it.

I thought there was a dive medicine section, but I couldn't find it. I hate the new lay out with the pull down menues. Old way was so simple.

[jefffalcone]

I thought there was a dive medicine section, but I couldn't find it. I hate the new lay out with the pull down menues. Old way was so simple.


Me too. I liked the old simple layout better. I think there's a way to put your computer back to the old classic layout, but I'm not sure.

[jefffalcone]

Me too. I liked the old simple layout better. I think there's a way to put your computer back to the old classic layout, but I'm not sure.


You guys are so stupid. you just have to set it to scuba board classic in the menu on the bottom left. You'd have noticed it if you ever looked anywhere on the page besides the new threads list.























can I more shamelessly bump my own thread?:D

[ScubaSarus]

Doesn't the doctor that prescribed the steroid know the answer. Is he cleared to exercise ?

There could be mental issues though anxiety, agitation, and mental confusion. I always thought steroids also affected the heart rhythm so take this quote by scubamed with a grain of salt and really double check with DAN. I was recently on a steroid and I had no problem with exercising though.

I'd keep the dives rather conservative and not too deep.

This is from Scubamed.com

Steroids

These medicines are used to prevent inflammation. They are part of the family of hormones that are released by the adrenal gland. They are necessary for the stable state of the heart and circulation, for proper fluid balance, mineral balance, and the ability of the body to withstand stress. The steroid preparations are often used on the skin for treatment of allergic rashes, they are useful for treatment of fire coral and sea nettle reactions, they will stop an asthma attack, and can be used to stop or prevent severe allergic reactions. Steroids have no direct effects on diving, although in some animal studies, they made oxygen toxicity more likely. Long term use of steroids is usually avoided because of the side effects of this treatment. Short term use (days to a few weeks) has little consequence. Steroid creams used for treatment of skin disorders have no effects on diving. People taking steroids for many months will develop diabetes, weak bones, obesity and other problems.

BUT THIS IS CONTRADICTORY to DEEP Diving

In particular, the class of drugs called steroids can have some nasty side effects, to include fluid retention, electrolyte loss, and avascular necrosis of the femoral head (cellular death of the head of the upper leg where it joins the hip socket). Some studies showed rates of dysparic osteonecrosis (avascular necrosis) from 2.7% to 80%. The higher rates were with saturation divers, deep helium (greater than 500 fsw/150 msw) dives, and divers with numerous DCS events. Steroids can also lead to increased susceptibility to hyperbaric oxygen toxicity and infections.

I suggest checking in with DAN as the physician wont know of the bends or oxygen toxicity risks while taking steroids. I wouldn't expect the GP to know that.

[scubadude79]

A friend of mine is on a very strong anabolic steroid called trenbolone. He is planning a dive trip. This seems very dangerous to me. I am no expert, but as I understand it one of the ways that steroids help you build muscle is buy helping your muscle tissue to retain nitrogen. Is there anyone with more knowlege than me who knows the actualy dangers of this?

I did not know that. If it helps retain nitrogen, then I wonder if it increases the retention of nitrogen in other parts like the brain. If it did, then I would suspect that he would be much more susceptible to becoming narked.

Definitely a question for the experts, and I would have him call DAN or call them on his behalf.

[MASS-Diver]

Doesn't the doctor that prescribed the steroid know the answer. Is he cleared to exercise ?

There could be mental issues though anxiety, agitation, and mental confusion.

I'd keep the dives rather conservative and not too deep.

This is from Scubamed.com

Steroids

These medicines are used to prevent inflammation. They are part of the family of hormones that are released by the adrenal gland. They are necessary for the stable state of the heart and circulation, for proper fluid balance, mineral balance, and the ability of the body to withstand stress. The steroid preparations are often used on the skin for treatment of allergic rashes, they are useful for treatment of fire coral and sea nettle reactions, they will stop an asthma attack, and can be used to stop or prevent severe allergic reactions. Steroids have no direct effects on diving, although in some animal studies, they made oxygen toxicity more likely. Long term use of steroids is usually avoided because of the side effects of this treatment. Short term use (days to a few weeks) has little consequence. Steroid creams used for treatment of skin disorders have no effects on diving. People taking steroids for many months will develop diabetes, weak bones, obesity and other problems.

The question from the OP is in regard to anabolic steroids, your quote references corticosteroids - which are very different.

Give that the drug in question is trenbolone (which I believe is used by vets on livestock), the OPs "friend" is taking the drug illegally. If this is the case, diving is probably the least of his troubles.

[Hoomi]

You guys are so stupid. you just have to set it to scuba board classic in the menu on the bottom left. You'd have noticed it if you ever looked anywhere on the page besides the new threads list.























can I more shamelessly bump my own thread?:D

I just thought you were having schizophrenia issues...

[diversteve]

Given that the drug in question is trenbolone (which I believe is used by vets on livestock), the OPs "friend" is taking the drug illegally. If this is the case, diving is probably the least of his troubles.


Trenbolone is a steroid used by veterinarians on livestock to increase muscle growth and appetite.Trenbolone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trenbolone)

moved to Diving Medicine (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/diving-medicine/)

[jefffalcone]

The question from the OP is in regard to anabolic steroids, your quote references corticosteroids - which are very different.

Give that the drug in question is trenbolone (which I believe is used by vets on livestock), the OPs "friend" is taking the drug illegally. If this is the case, diving is probably the least of his troubles.

Yes trenbolone is some nasty *****. That's why I am concerned about my friend diving on it.

Trust me I wouldn't ask about it on an open forum using my first and last name as my screen name if I were doing it. Not to mention that my brother frequents this board. The "friend" is just a guy I know from working out.

[jefffalcone]

TSandM where are you? You must have something to say about this. I'm counting on you.

Thallassamania - you seem to know something about everything. Come on man.

[MASS-Diver]

Trust me I wouldn't ask about it on an open forum using my first and last name as my screen name if I were doing it. Not to mention that my brother frequents this board. The "friend" is just a guy I know from working out.

I was just teasing about the "friend" thing. In all seriousness, 'roids do some nasty stuff. At the least, he probably has an increased risk of CV events (heart attack, stroke). Plus, his temperament probably sucks, which is not a good thing underwater.

I hope he's not out on any our local boats? I have enough problems without some juicehead having roid rage on me on one of the boats. I don't know how this guy looks, but everyone I know that has used steroids ends up looking SUPER obvious. Personally, I would not want to show up for a boat dive with a guy who is obviously doing illegal drugs.

[jefffalcone]

Don't worry. He's not from around here. I know him from an internet body building forum.

[MASS-Diver]

Don't worry. He's not from around here. I know him from an internet body building forum.


Cool :)

[Kingpatzer]

Yes trenbolone is some nasty *****. That's why I am concerned about my friend diving on it.


Someone engaged in illegally taking drugs isn't going to be all that concerned with what a bunch of pseudo-anonymous posters on a board say.

But -- I'd seriously recommend not diving while taking any drug that potent.

[Thalassamania]

This one has me stumped, I even called a Hyperbaric consult and he just had inferences and guesses. My consultant and I are in complete agreement that this person, regarless of the effect of the steroid on DCS should not be diving. If I had to clear this person to dive under institutional auspices ... there's no way in hell I would.

[PTAaron]

I'm no dive medicine expert, but I do know a fair amount about the bodybuilding lifestyle. As far as I know, the type of "nitrogen retention" that is referred to in muscle building is not the same type of "nitrogen retention" that is a concern with diving.
Someone that is on an anabolic is the same as a person who has naturally higher testosterone levels (for the most part) - and their body is just more efficient at using protein as it is taken in through the diet, which is generally what people mean when referencing "positive nitrogen balance" and being in an anabolic state.

As long as your friend isn't having blood pressure issues (common in people that are using high doses of anabolics), and his other blood profile markers are "good" (assuming he is being intelligent and having regular blood tests done as many users of anabolics do) he is no different than any other diver that works out or happens to have higher than normal natural testosterone.

People that use anabolics for bodybuilding purposes are not the same as people using street drugs to get high... but that isn't a debate for this forum. ... and I am a natural bodybuilder, so no anabolics here.

[jefffalcone]

This one has me stumped, I even called a Hyperbaric consult and he just had inferences and guesses. My consultant and I are in complete agreement that this person, regarless of the effect of the steroid on DCS should not be diving. If I had to clear this person to dive under institutional auspices ... there's no way in hell I would.

Thanks for weighing in thalassamania.

If you're stumped I'm not expecting that everyone will be. I told him that it scares the **** out of me, but people generally won't listen unless you have some data to back up what you're saying.

Since I know he will ignore my advice and still go diving, I told him to take extra long surface intervals, and extra slow ascents with a longer than normal safety stop and maybe an extra stop.

He replied that he is a new diver so he'll be concentrating on slow ascents. I shook my head and went looking for a way to talk him out of his trip.

[Thalassamania]

... he is no different than any other diver that works out or happens to have higher than normal natural testosterone.

People that use anabolics for bodybuilding purposes are not the same as people using street drugs to get high... but that isn't a debate for this forum. ... and I am a natural bodybuilder, so no anabolics here.He is very different from "other" divers, and yes ... this is a perfectly good place for a discussion of steriod use and diviing.

Forgetting about the physiologic for a moment we can start with the narcissism and body image issues that drive someone to inject steroids and move on to the questions of mental balance and stability ... this is not someone upon whom I would want to depend in the water.

[jefffalcone]

I'm more interested in the medical issues. Let's leave a discussion for the phycological impact of steroids for another thread.

[Thalassamania]

I'm more interested in the medical issues. Let's leave a discussion for the phycological impact of steroids for another thread.That's fine.

[PTAaron]

To the OP: The point I was trying to make is maybe there is a misunderstanding of terminology that is causing large part of the concern. People refer to a "positive nitrogen balance" in bodybuilding terms to mean a time the body is in an anabolic (muscle building) state vs a "negative nitrogen balance" or catabolic state. It is more a reference to amino acid/protein synthesis than it is to actual gas retention in the tissues.

[MASS-Diver]

To the OP: The point I was trying to make is maybe there is a misunderstanding of terminology that is causing large part of the concern. People refer to a "positive nitrogen balance" in bodybuilding terms to mean a time the body is in an anabolic (muscle building) state vs a "negative nitrogen balance" or catabolic state. It is more a reference to amino acid/protein synthesis than it is to actual gas retention in the tissues.


Exactly, body builders are not talking about nitrogen gas, they mean amino acids. Taking steroids is not going affect off gasing.

[ScubaSarus]

Thanks for correcting me Mass-Diver. I never imagines someone would be asking about safely diving on a banned substance. This is a serious concern with this steroid and one that targets muscles that's usually reserved for animal chemistry. I'm wondering if this guy has the mindset to be a good diver let alone a good dive buddy.

Given:
One isn't going to call DAN about diving on a banned substance and there is no physician to ask.
We are it?

Finaject (Trenbolone Acetate)

Legitimate Medical Use

None. It hasn't been produced in years.

Side Effects

Very toxic to the kidneys. In addition, users can experience headaches, oily skin, acne, nasal bleeding and an increase in aggression. Women can also experience the development of male-like characteristics including unwanted hair and a deepening of the voice.
Warning signs requiring medical attention

Dark colored urine, back pain (in the kidney area) and blood in the urine are signs of kidney toxicity.
Identifying the Steroid
Injectable form.

These days, the only way to get trenbolone is to extract it from cattle implants. The trenbolone in implants is an acetate ester meaning its extremely fast acting. The injected esters will quickly release the drug into your body; trenbolone has a quick clearance time from the body as well. Therefore, an athlete needs to inject trenbolone frequently.

There is also a significant risk of damage to the heart, which is made of muscle tissue. Anabolic steroids can lead to an expansion of the cardiac muscle, which can cause heart attacks.

[TSandM]

This is an ugly drug.

But the question about nitrogen retention is just confusion about the difference between nitrogen-containing compounds and molecular nitrogen gas. Steroids do not affect on and off-gassing. They do promote the incorporation of dietary nitrogen (eg. amino acids) into compounds that remain in the body (eg. proteins). This has nothing to do with diving.

The cardiac effects of anabolic steroids are real, but show up over fairly long term use. The psychological effects (in particular, risk taking and aggression) require far shorter use to become evident. The drug is obviously not one to be recommended, either for the user's long term health, or for diving, but nitrogen kinetics are not the reason.