need opinions on equipment.... (SAR)

[baxter_1962]

My Fire Company has formed a dive team. We are presently beginning our training with a mix of experienced and new divers. We are moving cautiously, and are aware that we have many months of training ahead of us.

Now the question... we are looking to begin purchasing BC's Reg's and gauges. Money is an issue but the team members are dedicated to raising the funds needed. We are in Northeast Pa. and we are looking at cold fresh water dives to approx. 60 ft.
In BC's we are looking at DiveRite Backplate and Harness or Zeagle Ranger or Concept 2. Regs are either Apex ATX50 with ATX40 octo or Scubapro MK25 G250Hp with R380 octo or Aqualung Cousteau Glacia with a Glacia octo. Gauges will be analog Scubapro mini VIP3.

Opinions??

Thanks in advance. I enjoy reading the comments on this board. T

[Scubaroo]

...as it may affect the gear recommendations. Is this dive team a seach and rescue team, or recreational dive club type thing?

[baxter_1962]

Search and Rescue Team

[Scubaroo]

Cool.

Due to the nature of this request (SAR team equipment), could people responding to this post please identify themselves as having/not having SAR experience. I believe there are a few SAR folks around on this board. I'll tweak the thread title so it gets their attention for you.

[baxter_1962]

Thanks...

[baxter_1962]

Thanks...

[Waterborne]

Hey Baxter, I have a fire service backround, all aspects of special rescue and dive rescue as well. If I was going to outfit a dive team, I would want gear that adaptable as the team grows. I think you're right on in looking at the BP and wings setup. You can match the wings to the tank(s) needed, setup in minutes and the entire system can be used for all types of diving. For cold water rescue diving, I would want a diahragm first stage. As you and I know, these types of rescues don't happen in pristine warm waters but in cold, dirty, sometimes contaminated water. The Apeks DS4 or the Scuba Pro MK16 are good choices. On to second stages, I would suggest a high performance adjustable primary coupled with a not so high performance backup. Less overall chance of freeflow and complication on rescue attempts. While we're at it, what type of hose setup/routing did you have in mind? Choice of gauges sounds great IMHO. What did you have in mind for exposure protection? Another thing to bring up, have you thought about the AGA mask? I know with alot of depts it would be out of the question due to cost, I am thinking more along the lines of comms.

[rmediver2002]

Jeff Lane, FSU-academic Diving Program / Former US Army Engineer diver / full-face mask and surface supplied diving instructor for FSU:


Score is bringing up some great points here...

If your intent is to form a team having the capability to respond to the majority of incidents in timely manner, your going to have to work on the assumption the water is dirty. (by dirty I mean unless you have a lab analysis done treat the water as contaminated) often times the project itself will be a source of contamination that must be considered.

Just some things to think about (what direction do you want the team to go in the futute... Capabilities in the future as your teams skills and training increase...) You don't want to have to purchase and train on a completely different gear configuration down the road...


1) Dry-suit with dry hood and dry glove attachments (cuff rings..)
2) Positive pressure full-face mask (some type of air block device allowing the diver to switch to an alternate air source without removing the mask)
3) Communications (preferably hardwire as you should be diving line tended anyway)
4) For all your equipment you need to be thinking about entanglement hazards, your not going to be needing to many d-rings or bells on your equipment for slow methodical searching in low visibility water right?



Here is one reference to look through...

http://www.teamlgs.com/Pages/standards.htm

This is the Life Guard Systems main site, great reference for training and equipment questions, look through the frequently asked questions and message group archives. Anyone interested this is a decent discussion forum at times as well, the link to join is on the site also.


http://www.teamlgs.com/

[hunter991]

Some of my qualifications are:
Med Dive Technician, Dive Rescue Specialist II, working SAR diver.

Ok, on to my advice. I would definately try to make having an aga mask as the primary second stage a priority, they can be had new for around $400 if you shop around. An excellent idea for a team that is short on funds to raise money is to host a class with dive rescue international. You host a class at your agency and they fly in and teach it. You get so many free slots depending on the amount of paying customers that show up, then after so many more people show up you get store credit and discounted store prices. They can completely outfit a dive team from the store.

Another idea is to shop around for prices. Many manufacturers will sell at distributor cost to dive teams trying to outfit their team. Email me for certain manufacturers that do this. This is kind of a touchy subject between dive shops and manufactueres and they prefer to keep it quiet. The cost savings are significant.

As a side note my team uses poseidon first stages, AGA as our primary mask, and DUI vulcanized dry suits. I would definately use poseidon as a first, and aga as the second, no other competition to them in my mind. A vulcanized suit is a vulcanized suit, shop around, but Viking makes the best...at the highest price, although there are members on here that sell them at a good price....bob3 is one.

Hope this helps, sorry for being long winded.

Brent

Hope this helps

hunter99991@hotmail.com

[bill harvey]

I was a police officer, and i have more experience with dead people than i would have liked.

I would also say that hunter is right when he recomended the vulcanized drysuit, won't get contaminated like other suits, belive me you will want to be able to clean up easy after you surface a drowning victim, they have a habit of getting you dirty.

Most importantly, i sugest you guys all go out and dive whenever you can and i mean for fun also, If the only reason you put on your gear is to go pick up some dead kid you will start to not want to put on your gear.

Good luck with getting the team together and getting the funds to get your gear and I hope you never have to use your training.

[rmediver2002]

Vulcanized suits would be my choice for several reasons… They are easier to decontaminate and clean, easy to field repair, extremely durable; permeability tests have been performed on the materials and are readily available as a reference for exposure limits…

Currently we are using the Viking and Gates 1000 gram suits, no significant problems with either brand. The only repairs we have run into are replacement of the Latex seals so far… Pretty resistant to leaking and abrasion…


Viking = established, safe, comfortable, several material weights to chose from (they are currently the only one offering a stretching vulcanized material – offers the comfort and flexibility of normal neoprene suits)
They are also going to be one of the most expensive suits out there…

Hunter (formerly Gates) – offers some great suits at a more affordable cost, they one of the most often used commercial suits, also available in a couple different material weight options

Amron – offers two weights of vulcanized suits also, pretty good prices as well…



I would also recommend talking to Bob3 and seeing what type of group deal you can wrangle…

Good luck,

Jeff

[bridgediver]

I've just become involved recently with our small dept team and we are trying to breathe new life into it. We're almost starting from scratch too. We are also on a tight budjet. Here's what we have learned so far.

Firstly. Make sure you have a top notch surface team. Not only are they important to support the divers but almost all "rescue" incidents begin as a surface rescue. Unless the focus is body/object recovery.

You should also take into account the environments you will be diving in. Previous posts have suggested full face masks and rubber suits etc that would be important for ops in contaminated water. If you can get this stuff, go for it! We have found that the cost of this type of equipment can't justify the risk in our area. Unfortunately there are a few places we just won't have the ability to enter - an unfortunate reality of limited funds. You'll have to evalute your risks and also the standards required for rescue diving in your area may also dictate what you need to use.

I would also suggest the backplate set up and any of the other peices you mentioned should serve you well. We have 1 AGA mask and it seems to function well except the comms seem to only work half the time so I'm not sure they're worth it - maybe ours is just a bad one but that is my experience with them. I would agree with the rest that the rubber suits would be best but if your trying to save money we found that neoprene works for us. Less money in the cost of a suit and undergarmets, they are also pretty durable which is important as the suits seem to get beaten up really bad.

We also have used Dive Rescue International in the past and they have an awesome program and I would recommend them for youe training (at least initially). We have since moved away from them because divers must recertify every 2 years and it was the cost thing again. I would suggest to either get the ball rolling with DRI for the first few years and/or go to a consultant and set up your own training program. Alot of work but you'll save thousands of dollars a year.

Good luck!!

[Waterborne]

After being gone all weekend and reveiwing this thread, I have to ask what kind of SAR team are we talking about here? Are we talking about a small town department where divers may have to provide their own gear or a large department with a matching budget? I think that some more information about the location, anticipated types of diving, size of the team and budget would be more helpful in providing better answers to your teams needs. I totally agree that the very best gear is desirable for the hazardous environment you are putting yourself into. Although we all know that a very limited budget would not support it. I think that in my initial post, I was going on the premise of a small town dept. that was new in the game.

Baxter, could you give us as much information as possible about the team so we can better formulate our advice?

[rmediver2002]

Equipment cost and training cost!! This is no excuse for not having the right gear... I will not even go into the training cost, there is no logic to it...

Just a few thoughts...


Body recovery = biological contamination = FFM and drysuit

Zero visibility = no visual for buddy for assistance = surface tended and communications

Vehicle search / recovery operations = chemical contamination = FFM Drysuit...

DO NOT GET IN OVER YOUR HEAD...

Jeff Lane

[trymixdiver]

Ideally you mulitple sets of gear for different situations.

Your not going to use a FFM and drysuit if your not recovering a body or diving in contaninated water. To do it right ( reference not intended, the gear config cannot be dir by definition ie FFM ) you are going to need some serious fundrasiers to get the gear you need.

who is currently doing the recoveries in your area using SCUBA ?


Andy

[Waterborne]

Equipment cost and training cost!! This is no excuse for not having the right gear... I will not even go into the training cost, there is no logic to it...
I agree, there is no excuse for not having the right gear and the best training. Now I am not saying hop in and do body recoveries in a wetsuit and standard scuba gear. I was more trying to see if Baxters dept. was in a position to obtain the proper gear and training. IMHO, if this is a dept. with a very limited budget and call volume in this area, then I would say scrap the idea and contract it to a professional service that does have the gear, training and experience to perform these tasks. On the other hand, if this is a dept that has the call volume and budget to support it, then I'm sure the input already given would be invaluable to Baxter. By budget to support it, I mean the proper gear and training as already pointed out by many in this thread, ie drysuits, FFM, comms and the like. Make a little more sense now?

[bridgediver]

rmediver2002 once bubbled...
Equipment cost and training cost!! This is no excuse for not having the right gear... I will not even go into the training cost, there is no logic to it...




What I was trying to illustrate is that in the formation of a team there are alot of factors besides just getting equipment. Unless you have virtually unlimited funding you have to take into account the costs of the other aspects of maintaining the team; training being only one.

I agree with trymix. Different equipment can be applied to different situations.

Not sure what you mean by "I will not even go into the training cost, there is no logic to it..."?

[rmediver2002]

I am sorry if I come across stern but it sounds less like a recommendation for equipment to a new team and more like trying to convince yourself that purchasing the wrong equipment does not restrict your ability to respond...

If you can not fund the proper equipment and training, pause, re-group, find some way to generate the needed funds and then proceed... If there is a need for the team funding will become available...



What I was trying to illustrate is that in the formation of a team there are alot of factors besides just getting equipment. Unless you have virtually unlimited funding you have to take into account the costs of the other aspects of maintaining the team; training being only one.

I will restate the minimum equipment needed:

1) Dry-suit with dry hood and dry glove attachments (cuff rings..)
2) Positive pressure full-face mask (some type of air block device allowing the diver to switch to an alternate air source without removing the mask)
3) Communications (preferably hardwire as you should be diving line tended anyway)
4) For all your equipment you need to be thinking about entanglement hazards, your not going to be needing to many d-rings or bells on your equipment for slow methodical searching in low visibility water right?


It is far cheaper to buy the right tools the first time, buying recreational scuba equipment would serve little purpose unless you have the money to buy multiple equipment sets. It just does not cover a wide enough variety of projects.

As the teams capabilities increase the next step would be moving to a surface supplied diving system...





Not sure what you mean by "I will not even go into the training cost, there is no logic to it..."?


We also have used Dive Rescue International in the past and they have an awesome program and I would recommend them for youe training (at least initially). We have since moved away from them because divers must recertify every 2 years and it was the cost thing again.

Jeff Lane

[baxter_1962]

I would like to thank everyone who has offered help and information. My fire company is a small volunteer dept in the Pocono's. While our budget is tight we are taking this seriously. We have contracted with a company to do our training and are aware that at best our team will not be is service for at least a year. Money for equipment can always be raised one way or another but the training aspect is most important. The best equipment in the world will not help you if you don't know what you're doing. That being said, guess what I was really looking for was advice on equipment that we can purchase now while we are training( considering the budget issue) that we will not have to replace or that we will grow out of as our training proceeds onward. We are planning on drysuits and fullface masks.
But we have to start slow, get as much training done as possible, dive as a team and get comfortable with a new enviroment.

Again thanks for all the replies.

[resqdivers]

I am the deputy director of our dive team, a member of a neighboring dive team, professional ff with over 10 yrs in service.

Full face masks with coms are a MUST (NIOSH recommendation, I like the AGA stuff with Positive Pressure and the Surface Breathing Vent) Then you would wat to definately consider a Vulcanized rubber drysuit with hood (for ease of de-con and field repair). Remember that you will most likey be in water that has gas on the surface (from cars, Gas is lighter that water and will float) Neoprene and gas/diesel or any petro product just don't get along. Dive rite products are very capable, as are abyss. Three of my divers along with myself dive a Genesis ReCon and really like it for recovery work. Don't get caught up in the BS of the DIR stuff, doesn't work well with Recovery work, I don't care what they try to get you to believe, it doesn't work well in the conditions that you will be in. If you would like to see our webpage, go to: http://www.pedaler.com/html/rome_twp__special_operations_u.html

Feel free to use our SOG's as a starting point for your dept.

If you have any questions, you can PM me and I will give you my contact info then.

Safe diving

[DA Aquamaster]

This is a little off topic, but is a potential issue with a new team. I dive with several of the divers on a local dive rescue team. On occassion I have had to bring some of them up when they panic or otherwise screw up. They are nice enough guys but really suck as divers. Some have not even gotten the bouyancy issue down pat. On a planned deep dive with a pair of them this wekend, I had an equipment problem and had to skip the dive. The look on the instructors face said it all - he wanted me along as support for these guys. That is pretty sad.

The lakes here are deep, cold, and dark and visibility can be severely limited. A 120 ft deep dive in 40 degre water with zero vis is a challange just to make the dive and even more so if you also need to run an effective search pattern in the limited bottom time available. The annual requirement to stay current on the dive rescue team is 12 dives which is not nearly enough to meet those challenges.

On one recovery a few years ago, the most likely search area was not covered effectively due to depth, low vis and minimally competant divers, who in my opinion, were not entirely honest in addmitting their search areas were not covered. The body was found 18 months later by rec divers specifically looking for the victim. The dive rescue squad insisted on making the recovery (because that's what they take everybody's donations for) and managed to botch it as well.

What really frosts me is that on one rescue where the victim had been down only 14 minutes in very cold water, the fire chief suggested the instructor on the team not go in the water as he was always the first one in the water. His thought was that it would be good to let one of the other divers go first. Stupid. Seonds and minutes count and if the rest of the team is slow that's too bad. To the instructors credit he went anyway.

On another rescue/recovery under the ice, they went through 3 divers before they found one with the skill and experience to actually get to the bottom and rescue the victim.

The principle requirement for membership on the team is that the diver be a member of the local police dept, fire dept or sheriff's dept. and diving skill comes a very distant second with minimal ability required.

Personally, if you are going to start a team, you need to commit to getting them the training to do the job right and they need to be committed to diving enough in all types of conditions to maintain that level of proficiency. This means they need to be in the water developing and maintaining skills virtually every week, year round.

My own biased opinion is that it is far easier to take an experienced and well trained diver and make him a member of the rescue squad than it is to take a well intentioned police officer or fire fighter and turn him into an experieced diver. I'd keep the membership options open and make team membership a competetive thing with tryouts and high standards for diving ability.

If you are limited to having city or county employed divers due to response time, insurance coverage, etc. consider using them for a "rescue" squad, but then also consider using more experienced volunteer divers on day two when it becomes a recovery effort. You'll get better results and risk fewer dive related injuries that way.

[rmediver2002]

Yeah, and lastly don't take anything the Monday morning quarterbacks say to seriously...

Sometimes you will run into folks who think they could have conducted every operation better and more efficiently than you. This illusion is often a result of never having to conduct the operations but comparing them to thier diving experiences...

You know the folks to ask for information or help are the ones that impress you with diving skills and some tact not the ones who can talk a big game on shore...

It is kind of funny you know when the only way to make themselves look good is to point out others percieved errors...

Jeff Lane

[DA Aquamaster]

You seem a little touchy there Jeff. I'm just saying if someone is going to start a dive rescue team with a local fire company, equipment considerations should be the least of their worries. Rescue diving requires training, professionalisim and dedication and if any of those factors is absent, then you really are better off skipping the idea - someone will get hurt.

Most police officers and fire fighters are very well versed on techiques and procedures specific to their fields and would not think of using someone who is improperly trained or only minimally proficient. But ironically at the same time I see these same professionals on dive teams where they do not show the same level of care and concern to the team's diving operations.

The sad part is Jeff that it is this same attitude that you express, an attitude condemning any constructive critisim from outside that keeps our local dive rescue team from improving. Local dive rescue teams can become a elite club's where the justifications of the group become a barrier to any real change.

I do not disagree that rescue and recovery diving is different, but the specific skills required need to be on top of diving skills that are already well developed and second nature.

[rmediver2002]

Yes I agree although you may be somewhat supprised to find my post was not directed at you specifically. This is an ongoing issue among many types of divers, talking garbage about other divers is not going to get them to improve and most certainly will not make you look better. In the water it is obvious who has the experience, training , and techniques to perform a given task and that is what counts. Words are just a meaningless waste of energy in my opinion when discussing diving skills.

I am in agreement with the statements made about training in your second post but the first did not appear to be constructive in the least.

I disagree about the equipment concerns, I think it speaks very well of any team who queries working teams about equipment issues. Why waste the time and funds to conduct training on equipment not suitable to the mission.

You bring up fantastic points about training and even brought up some good points about liability issues at the end the first post.


On occassion I have had to bring some of them up when they panic or otherwise screw up. They are nice enough guys but really suck as divers.

Your intitial paragraph set the mood of the entire post, it would be dificult for me to look past the venom of such statements and see the constructive portions of your post.

Jeff Lane

[bridgediver]

I don't want to speculate about the incidents you've outlined because obviously I wasn't on scene but perhaps there were reasons for hesitation.

The chief may have wanted the instructor to take more of a command role of the rescue. Someone needs to actually be in charge of the incident and it should be someone who is a specialist of the incident type IF possible. The officer that was the incident commander may have not have been as well versed in water rescues as the instructor (this is usually the case in my dept). Without good command you either get lucky or pooch the op.
If this instructor is the team leader, perhaps he should send the other divers first. The most experience usually can be better served as command.
You're right, seconds do count but in any sort of rescue from a building collapse to a car accident if you watch it it would seem painfully slow and perhaps obvious what needs to be done to the observer. One of the reasons is so that the rescuer doesn't become a victim and if the incident deteriorates the rescuers will be ready to address additional problems.


DA Aquamaster once bubbled...


What really frosts me is that on one rescue where the victim had been down only 14 minutes in very cold water, the fire chief suggested the instructor on the team not go in the water as he was always the first one in the water. His thought was that it would be good to let one of the other divers go first. Stupid. Seonds and minutes count and if the rest of the team is slow that's too bad. To the instructors credit he went anyway.

[/B]