Open water dive PADI in Bangkok HELP!!!

[orangiraffe]

Hi everybody. I am new to diving but I've been interested for years. I've just gotten a chance to go Bangkok and my boyfriend and I want to to take up the PADI open water diving certification, preferably at Koh Tau. Can anybody recommend us a really good centre or association/shop...that can give us a good and cheap quotation?

Regards,
Liyana

[FrankP]

looks like

Calypso Diving, Koh Samui

is a good choice (have a look at: taucher.net Calypso Diving, Koh Samui, Thailand - this site is mostly in german, but...)

Greetings from Bavaria!

[DevonDiver]

With over 50 dive centers operating on Koh Tao, you have a wealth of choices available. The quality of instruction and experience you will enjoy can vary drammatically depending on the care you take to choose.

Different centers have different pros and cons. Some specialise in certain languages (like the German center mentioned by a previous poster). There are shops that serve predominantly scandinavians. japanese etc etc. Centers that specialise in languages...or attempt to cater for many languages may hire less experienced instructors (instructors hired for their language, rather than their skill and experience as scuba teachers).

There are also large and small centers on the island. Small centers may have smaller groups for diving (which is nice), but the quality and customer service of the smaller centers varies considerably. The large dive centers tend to have larger groups of divers/bigger boats etc..so you may get less personal attention - but the upside is that they tend to have more uniform quality standards. Another benefit (depending on your tastes) is that they offer more chance to meet new people, make friends and party.

Another issue is where you want to stay on Koh Tao. The most popular beach area is 'Sairee Beach' and many resorts and dive centers are located along this beachfront strip...along with the main bars, restaurants and clubs. The Mae Haad area is much quieter (especially at night) and cheaper rooms are more readily available. However, you need to get a 5 minute taxi ride to get to the main entertainments.

For the best price/deal on diving and accommodation ....do not book in advance and certainly do not use a booking office in Bangkok (you pay for the middle-man).

If you are not flying via Samui...then just go to any tour operator in Bangkok (most are at Koh San Road) and book a 'Joint Ticket'. The best option on a Joint Ticket is overnight sleeper train (air-con) and then Lompraya Ferry. Take some food and drinks for the train. You are well looked after on the trip and not much can go wrong.

Once you arrive at Koh Tao (and on the ferry) you will be approached by a horde of touts trying to earn commission for booking accomodation and dive courses. Ignore them! Go check out some dive companies...haggle over prices...and ask whether they can offer free accommodation within the course price (some will..depending on season and how busy they are). If you have the energy to shop around, then you can get a good deal.

Be aware that the island gets full immediately after the infamous 'Full Moon Party' at Koh Pangan...so you get less discounts then and may have problems sourcing decent accommodation. The number of people booked onto dive courses is also higher then. Obviously, the 'Full Moon Party' is over the full moon period...so check online when that will be!

The week preceding, and over, the Full Moon Party is normally the quietest and this is a good time to arrive if you have that flexibility in your schedule. You can get better deals and more personal attention on courses.

Another tip for getting a better price is to 'hint' that you might be considering taking the Advanced Open Water course following your Open Water. Be non-commital, but doing this increases your 'value' as a customer. Also, tell them you are very nervous (even if you aren't)...as they will be more inclined to put you with the most experienced instructor.

When considering dive schools....ask these important questions...

1. How experienced is your instructor? (years teaching, number of certifications)

2. Which dive sites will be used for the course? (some schools cut costs by visiting the less interesting, but shorter ranged sites)

3. How many other divers can you expect to be sharing the course and dive boat with?

4. Does the dive boat have emergency oxygen, first aid kit and currently certified first aid trained staff.

If you are happy with these answers....then ask to see their diving equipment. Good schools use well-maintained, clean kit. If the kit looks like it has been dragged behind a bus from Bangkok to Beijing, then steer clear!

Then ask if you can meet your potential diving instructor (if you haven't been introduced already). Ask yourself what vibe you get from him/her? If they look like they spent the last week smoking pot, drinking and dancing...then they probably have...avoid them! If they act like they don't care...then they probably don't! If they are boastful, then they are probably inexperienced.

If they are friendly, professional, informative, establish good rapport with you and develop a sense of trust...then they are probably a good choice.

Chat to them about diving...where they have been (diving) in the world? When did they qualify as a DIVER..and when did they qualify as an INSTRUCTOR (there are some very inexperienced people working as dive pros!). What is there qualification as an Instructor? (it goes, in order,... Open Water Instructor....Master Scuba Diver Trainer...IDC Staff Instructor). The higher the qualification (along with years teaching and number of certifications) indicates (but not guarantees) more capability.

From my personal experience (working for 2 years on Koh Tao as an instructor), I would recommend the following schools...

Mae Haad - Crystal Dive Center (big school...well managed, nice operations).
Mae Haad - Master Divers (small school, long-standing, personal attention).

Sairee Beach - Seashell Resort (small school, good management, personal attention and nice rooms).
Sairee Beach - Davy Jones Locker (medium sized school, very professional)

They all have websites...drop them (and others) an enquiry email and see how they respond. Don't ask for prices...or you may reduce you ability to haggle when you arrive. If you do talk prices or wish to book in advance...do it directly with the school concerned and aim to get a discount and/or free room.

If you have any further questions, feel free to PM me. Have a great time on Koh Tao... I miss that place a lot!

[Arizona]

Cheap is not always good! Be careful, there are some that will offer a course with hidden charges or cut corners. Make sure you know what you are getting up front with regard to certification agency as well.

What time of year will you be visiting? The Gulf of Thailand (Koh Tao) and the Andaman Sea (Phuket...) have different seasons. That should also help determine location. You should post this sort of question ideally in the Thai regional section (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/thailand/).

Good advice from Andy by the way.

PM if you want more info as I am Bangkok based.

Perhaps a MOD can move this thread?

Safe diving,

[Crowley]

Did I ever meet you when I was in Thailand, Arizona? I can't remember - (lots of hazy memories from pattaya and bangers!!) certainly I know you through mutual friends...

Don't go for cheap on Koh Tao. I'm not saying that cheap is always bad but Koh Tao does have a reputation for 'cowboy' dive operators. There are plenty of places to visit so maybe spend a day wandering around and making enquiries. Compare prices and ask what's offered, how long it will take, what you have to do etc. As Devondiver said - check them out; any half way decent shop will be happy to show you or prove that they have proper facilities and equipment.

Have a good time in Thailand!

C.

[Arizona]

Crowley,

We may very well have dived together or been on the same boat while you were in Pattaya. I went out of my way to get as much experience as I could while balancing work and family commitments the year between becoming a DM to instructor. As a full time educator, I always make sure I am prepared for class. I wanted to ensure this would be same for scuba, hence diving whenever I could "locally". The training I received was very good, but there is no substitute for experience.

The OP could also consider doing theory and confined at home and taking a referral to Thailand. That could save time and maximize your holiday time. I have helped a few through this process with OW checkout dives in Pattaya. Just make sure you get the complete referral paperwork detailing everything you have done. If it is PADI to PADI the process is very simple.

[orangiraffe]

ANDYYY!!!

You're my saviour! (:

Actually, I did email some centres I found online. Thankfully, DJL is one of the centres you mentioned in your reply! I think I'm definitely going to go for it!

And you're right, we are not going to do an online booking and DJL does not have a centre at Bangkok. Nonetheless, I got them to give me a quotation via email. They gave me a price of 9500 THB for 4 nights accomodation plus equipment rental and course fees. Is that costly?

Hmm, I am going to take the course the day after the FMP, I hope accomodation will be available. I could possibly book before hand since I would be arriving at Koh Pangan on the 5th. I could take a ferry ride to Koh Tao and book!

PERFECT!!!

Thank you GUYS!

WONDERFUL BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE! (:

Regards,
Liyana (needs some sun-tanning) :D

[DevonDiver]

If you are arriving at Koh Tao direct from the FMP, be aware that you will be travelling with maybe 10,000+ other party revellers...and competing with them for accommodation.

For your circumstances, I would definitely recommend booking in advance.

The price quoted by DJL (including accommodation) is very reasonable indeed. You 'may' get a slightly cheaper deal if you don't book in advance - but for the potential saving, you would probably have much more trouble getting a room.

[Aquanauts Pattaya]

9,500 baht for an open water course with 4 night accommodations? How does anyone make money on Koh Tao is beyond me. (I assume the book is not included.)

[Quero]

Well, at least some ops sort of include the book. Last time I was there I was diving with an op that "sold" used manuals to students and "repurchased" the same manuals when the students had finished the course.

[limbo]

Hi Quero,

That's a disgrace and very much in contrast to the ethical rules of PADI, imho. I heard similar rumors.

[DevonDiver]

As far as I knew, PADI now keeps a tight control over manuals sold vs pic applications by dive centers...so it is unlikely that it was a PADI center doing this?!? How would they get away with making the applications, when they had not purchased the manuals?

In contrast, SSI Thailand don't (at least when I was on Tao) demand customers to buy manuals...so SSI schools would loan a manual for the duration of the course. Some shops passed that saving on to the customers...others used it to make greater profit.

[Quero]

PIC-Online, Andy.

And I can guarantee it was a PADI shop, as I'm a PADI instructor, and I was dismayed. I even asked how they managed it, and they said that standards only require that students OWN a personal copy of the manual and that since shops could no longer loan library copies, they simply sold and bought back the used manuals. Standards do not stipulate that each student must have a brand-new book.

I honestly don't know how widespread this practice is, but I do know that this particular shop claimed that the used book scheme helped them keep their OW course prices rock bottom.

[DevonDiver]

I use PIC Online.... and was under the impression that PADI still compared by online PIC applications against the orders I put in for manuals. As far as I was aware, the system was audited, to prevent the sort of 'rule bending' that is mentioned in this thread.

[Quero]

Andy, we're going off topic, so I won't go on and on with this, but there are ways. We do get referrals and students sometimes buy their books at home for self-study before they arrive; though those cases may not add up to big numbers, they do create loopholes that might be exploited. As I said, I don't know how widespread this practice is, but I can say, without one shred of hesitation, that at least one shop on Tao does the used-manual 'rule bending' scam. If one op does it, I would suspect that some others do as well. I haven't heard any rumblings of a PADI crackdown here in Thailand, though I suppose AP HQ could have a quiet 'word' with an offender.

Moving back towards the topic, JDL do say they provide a book with their cheap course, so they must have some other way to cut costs in order to make a reasonable profit.

[Aquanauts Pattaya]

Lots of shady stuff regarding cheap courses and materials. It just shows that cetners (like ours) that follow rules and standards to the letter are disadvantaged by scofflaw shops. Just glad I don't have to compete on K.T. Frankly, 9500 with a room for 4 nights and a legitimate book (personally) wouldn't be worth my time.

[bjexpat]

Lots of shady stuff regarding cheap courses and materials. It just shows that cetners (like ours) that follow rules and standards to the letter are disadvantaged by scofflaw shops. Just glad I don't have to compete on K.T. Frankly, 9500 with a room for 4 nights and a legitimate book (personally) wouldn't be worth my time.

I think scuba and skydiving would be two sports that I wouldn't lowball...even if it's only for the perception of additional safety. ;)

[Aquanauts Pattaya]

bj, if only everyone thought like you...

[Arizona]

Do they at least use white out before re-issuing the manuals?

[limbo]

Do they at least use white out before re-issuing the manuals?

Probably requires too many man hours.

[stevenl]

Probably requires too many man hours.Well, they have to keep their DMT's at work as well :D

[Zippsy]

9500 baht for the course and 4 nights accomodation? ummm.... wow. I just did the conversion. That is cheap by Singapore standards, doing only shore dives off Changi beach, hotel not included. I would definitely avoid that shop. Then again, I'd avoid shops that "loan or repurchase" books now too.

[katdiver]

I did hear of one shop there doing the lot for 8,500 baht. Sounds like too much supply for the demand. Here I came across a couple who got their TDA CMAS 1* for 8,000 baht each. All they had to do was show up with log books with about 6 or 7 dives (all intro dives they later admitted to me), do a three dive day trip down to Phi Phi with their instructor and hey presto, certification!
I was really dismayed when I took them out on a guided dive to see what little skills they had.

[DevonDiver]

9500 baht for the course and 4 nights accomodation? ummm.... wow. I just did the conversion. That is cheap by Singapore standards, doing only shore dives off Changi beach, hotel not included. I would definitely avoid that shop. Then again, I'd avoid shops that "loan or repurchase" books now too.

That is about the average price for Koh Tao.... there are a LOT of dive shops there...so inter-shop competition has done the consumer a big favor and driven prices very low to the profit margin. As a lot of the customers are back-packers on a limited budget (and, sometimes, not that much common sense) the dross schools drop their prices to attract trade...thus forcing the better schools to be competative in terms of price and drop their charges also.

It is a sucky situation for the good schools.... but, the consumer is too blame for not considering that cheaper is not always better.

The shop mentioned by the OP (Davy Jones Locker) is a very well run school, with a good resort and nice new pool. If my memory serves me right...and nothing changed since I left the island....they are 5* IDC...and a BSAC School of Excellence.

[Bowmouth]

It is a sucky situation for the good schools.... but, the consumer is too blame for not considering that cheaper is not always better.

Imo all the diveshop owners on Koh Tao should stick their heads together and agree on a reasonable fixed price for dive courses. It benefits nobody to go for ultra-cheap; not the diveshops, not their employees and not the customers either.
I doubt if it will ever happen though. Selling ultra cheap courses seems to be for some dive operators the only way to get customers in their shops....

[DevonDiver]

Imo all the diveshop owners on Koh Tao should stick their heads together and agree on a reasonable fixed price for dive courses. It benefits nobody to go for ultra-cheap; not the diveshops, not their employees and not the customers either.
I doubt if it will ever happen though. Selling ultra cheap courses seems to be for some dive operators the only way to get customers in their shops....

It has been tried already. There was a (now defunct) Dive Operators Club on Tao... but sadly some of the dross schools would always break the agreements and lower prices.

Talk to any of the decent managers on Tao and they will tell you that prices need to be raised....and that this will improve standards for customers and staff alike. Sadly, the retail economics mean they cannot.

[Bowmouth]

It has been tried already. There was a (now defunct) Dive Operators Club on Tao... but sadly some of the dross schools would always break the agreements and lower prices.

In the past in Phuket we had a DOCT (the "Dive Operators Club of Thailand" was actually started in Phuket). This club started off quite successfully but after a couple of years it all ended unfortunately in tears.
I find it unreal that a group of people with the same goal and business interests seem to be unable to work together and stick to some (solid) agreements which ultimately will help the whole of the industry.

Look what we have today: day-trip dive operators that slash each-others throats and send extremely ugly emails about one another to all dive shops on the island......

And then there is the TDA which imo is more interested in establishing a firm base for the CMAS system rather than serving the industry as a whole....

[lord khram]

Hi Quero,

That's a disgrace and very much in contrast to the ethical rules of PADI, imho. I heard similar rumors.

Dive shops breaking standard, I dont believe that for one minute. lol:rofl3:

[lord khram]

I did hear of one shop there doing the lot for 8,500 baht. Sounds like too much supply for the demand. Here I came across a couple who got their TDA CMAS 1* for 8,000 baht each. All they had to do was show up with log books with about 6 or 7 dives (all intro dives they later admitted to me), do a three dive day trip down to Phi Phi with their instructor and hey presto, certification!
I was really dismayed when I took them out on a guided dive to see what little skills they had.

I must agree, I have witnessed this type of thing myself all too often. 'certified' divers, basically incapable of many basic skills.

[lord khram]

Lots of shady stuff regarding cheap courses and materials. It just shows that cetners (like ours) that follow rules and standards to the letter are disadvantaged by scofflaw shops. Just glad I don't have to compete on K.T. Frankly, 9500 with a room for 4 nights and a legitimate book (personally) wouldn't be worth my time.

LOL:rofl3:

[lord khram]

Well, they have to keep their DMT's at work as well :D

This in my mind is a big down fall with the internship 'zero to hero system', in effect once you reach a certain level in your training, you then become a trainer yourself, so in effect you have paid to work for the shop, alongside 'hopefully' getting your own qualification.
This scheme may be ideal for some people, and no doubt in some cases is run in an ethical manner. But this system is also open to abuse as this thread would seem to suggest.

[limbo]

Dive shops breaking standard, I dont believe that for one minute. lol:rofl3:

LK, you're getting/becoming a bit tiresome sometimes.:popcorn:

[Aquanauts Pattaya]

what's the emoticon code for "broken record"?

[orangiraffe]

My friend booked her PADI with SAFRA Singapore. She took her classroom lessons here, in Singapore also her pool activities here. She was due to fly to Tioman for her OW dives. All in all she paid about 500SGD odd. And that is including the airfare and accomodation and all.

So its like, the prices are about the same here or Thailand. Well if a Tshirt in Thailand could cost you 4 SGD while a Tshirt in the UK could cost you 10 BPounds. It is just a matter of where you take the course I suppose. Nonetheless...Guys, IM FLYING OFF TOMORROW!!

SHOULD I OR SHOULD I NOT BOOK MY OW PADI CERTIFICATION WITH DJL??? A vote?

:D

[Apecks]

This in my mind is a big down fall with the internship 'zero to hero system', in effect once you reach a certain level in your training, you then become a trainer yourself, so in effect you have paid to work for the shop, alongside 'hopefully' getting your own qualification.
This scheme may be ideal for some people, and no doubt in some cases is run in an ethical manner. But this system is also open to abuse as this thread would seem to suggest.

What has 'Zero to hero' got to do with the price of an open water course on Koh Tao?

[katdiver]

I wish you guys would not quote LK in your replies. So much for my "ignor list".
Anyway, orangiraffe, enjoy your course, you got some good advice!

[lord khram]

I wish you guys would not quote LK in your replies. So much for my "ignor list".
Anyway, orangiraffe, enjoy your course, you got some good advice!

Lots of others also said they put me on ignore, but they quite clearly haven't?????

[DevonDiver]

LK...did you ever think about posting anything positive and helpful on the forum?

Perhaps the endless barrage of snide and unsubstantiated remarks is why you only ever got thanked once, despite being a regular contributor....

[Arizona]

I just re-read it and don't have the heart to pull the thank you away :) Actually, it was a helpful post IMO. Worthy of the thank you. Let's see what happens moving fwd.

[lord khram]

LK...did you ever think about posting anything positive and helpful on the forum?

Perhaps the endless barrage of snide and unsubstantiated remarks is why you only ever got thanked once, despite being a regular contributor....

Yes I post a number of positive remarks on here

How can you say my posts are unsubstantiated when most of them are about my actual diving experiences.

Due to circumstances I spend most of my time in Pattaya, a city which I love, however the diving around the area is far from the best, and most of the shops in my mind offer a low level service compared to what I have experienced in other parts of Thailand and around the world. Not speculation, because I have dived with most of them over the years. Suggest you give some of them a try let us know your opinion.
If you like shops that employ instructors illegally, use unqualified people to do training courses, lie to their customers, use old and unsafe equipment, dont train students correctly, dont provide customers with what they promise. I am sure you will thoroughly enjoy yourself.
Not snide and ubstantiated remarks, these are actual facts.

[DevonDiver]

If you like shops that employ instructors illegally, use unqualified people to do training courses, lie to their customers, use old and unsafe equipment, dont train students correctly, dont provide customers with what they promise. I am sure you will thoroughly enjoy yourself.
Not snide and ubstantiated remarks, these are actual facts.

Your posts are so generic... they imply every shop is like that. In Pattaya...and also in threads for other areas, such as Koh Tao.

[lord khram]

Your posts are so generic... they imply every shop is like that. In Pattaya...and also in threads for other areas, such as Koh Tao.

Yes in my experience, most of the shops I have dived with in pattaya have serious failings. And if my posts appear generic, that reflects the pattaya dive shops, because most of them are run on the same theme.

But please quote me one instance where I have complained about a shop in Koh Tao????
Because there you are talking absolute crap, that is something I have never done.

[josh]

Yes in my experience, most of the shops I have dived with in pattaya have serious failings. And if my posts appear generic, that reflects the pattaya dive shops, because most of them are run on the same theme.
.

Kram, you are perilously close to being a POV warrior, something specifically mentioned in the ToS to which you agreed to.

Really, time to move on.

[jdfmail]

Just add LK to your ignore list and you don't have to deal with his negative views.

[Apecks]

Suggest you give some of them a try let us know your opinion.
If you like shops that employ instructors illegally, use unqualified people to do training courses, lie to their customers, use old and unsafe equipment, dont train students correctly, dont provide customers with what they promise.

I have over 200 dives in Pattaya & Samesan and do not see any differences between there and other areas in Thailand. In fact I can think of some aspects of diving there that I enjoy more than anywhere else. My experience:-

Illegally Employed Instructors - I personally know roughly 10 Pattaya based instructors. 8 are legal by either working direct for the dive centre or freelance with there own companies. 2 are not strictly legal as they are part time but do hold work permits friom there regular employers. I would think the situation in most other areas is similar or worse.

Unqualified People Taking Courses - Never seen or heard of it on most of the boats I have been on or being discussed on the grapevine. Have you got any specifics?

Lie To There Customers - They would only do it once? But all of them?

Old & Unsafe Equipment - I know you have your own equipment so this must relate really to tanks & weights. With the exception of one Thai operator I have never seen any tanks that were bad shape or within there tested limits. I have had the odd problem with o rings or sticking valves but this is not exclusive to here.

Don't train students correctly - My experience is quite the opposite, with the slightly higher costs the traing seems to be a bit more individual than some other areas. I am certainly more than happy with mine. Have you got any examples?

Dont provide customers with what they promise - Presumably from your previous posts this will relate to dive times, no. of dives & dive sites. I personally have never been on a boat there that had less than a 1 hour dive time unless the dive plan dictated (i.e the wrecks), on a number of occassions I have paid for a two dive day and ended up doing three for the same cost. Diving in some other areas in Thailand this would never happen.
I would be lying if I said I had not booked to go the the 'far islands' and ended up on the 'near islands' but most of the time I have been quite satisfied that this was due to natural conditions. Again this has happened to me in other areas of Thailand, so is not exclusive to Pattaya.

[Aquanauts Pattaya]

Apecks -- Please do not fee the trolls. As Josh pointed out, SB's ToS defines a troll as:


Exploiting the weaknesses of human nature or of an on-line community to upset people. ScubaBoard includes POV warriors, cranks, impolite users and disruptive behaviour in this definition.

Think LK prety much at least 3 of 4 there...

[lord khram]

I have over 200 dives in Pattaya & Samesan and do not see any differences between there and other areas in Thailand. In fact I can think of some aspects of diving there that I enjoy more than anywhere else. My experience:-

Illegally Employed Instructors - I personally know roughly 10 Pattaya based instructors. 8 are legal by either working direct for the dive centre or freelance with there own companies. 2 are not strictly legal as they are part time but do hold work permits friom there regular employers. I would think the situation in most other areas is similar or worse.

Unqualified People Taking Courses - Never seen or heard of it on most of the boats I have been on or being discussed on the grapevine. Have you got any specifics?

Lie To There Customers - They would only do it once? But all of them?

Old & Unsafe Equipment - I know you have your own equipment so this must relate really to tanks & weights. With the exception of one Thai operator I have never seen any tanks that were bad shape or within there tested limits. I have had the odd problem with o rings or sticking valves but this is not exclusive to here.

Don't train students correctly - My experience is quite the opposite, with the slightly higher costs the traing seems to be a bit more individual than some other areas. I am certainly more than happy with mine. Have you got any examples?

Dont provide customers with what they promise - Presumably from your previous posts this will relate to dive times, no. of dives & dive sites. I personally have never been on a boat there that had less than a 1 hour dive time unless the dive plan dictated (i.e the wrecks), on a number of occassions I have paid for a two dive day and ended up doing three for the same cost. Diving in some other areas in Thailand this would never happen.
I would be lying if I said I had not booked to go the the 'far islands' and ended up on the 'near islands' but most of the time I have been quite satisfied that this was due to natural conditions. Again this has happened to me in other areas of Thailand, so is not exclusive to Pattaya.

Illegal instructors, one particular shop has only 2 instructors, both are on tourist visas, correct me if i am wrong but you are not allowed to hold a permit to work in Thailand with a tourist visa?

Unqualified people, I personally while acting as a dive guide at one shop was asked to conduct an advanced course, and I know of many other instances.

Lie to customers, Only last week i was told 30 m viz at ko sak. No need to say more on that one, take the 0 off and your closer to the mark.

Dont train properly, How about a DMT that paniked because he couldnt clear his own mask,

Poor Equipment, Take a day with Dive South East Asia, The bcd's look like there years old, straps missing, leaking inflators, generally just falling to pieces. Regulators with damaged hoses, leaking guages etc etc.

Again I am not saying all shops, but it happens frequently.

[Apecks]

Illegal instructors, one particular shop has only 2 instructors, both are on tourist visas, correct me if i am wrong but you are not allowed to hold a permit to work in Thailand with a tourist visa? No of course not and it is wrong I agree if it is the case. But this is not exclusive to Pattaya. Are you saying it does not happen in Koh Chang, Tao, Samui, Krabi or Phuket?
Unqualified people, I personally while acting as a dive guide at one shop was asked to conduct an advanced course, and I know of many other instances. It is very sad if that is the case. I have personally never encountered that at the dive centres I have used.

Lie to customers, Only last week i was told 30 m viz at ko sak. No need to say more on that one, take the 0 off and your closer to the mark. Are you sure they were not joking? :confused:

Dont train properly, How about a DMT that paniked because he couldnt clear his own mask Trained from OW upwards by one of the major local dive centres?

Poor Equipment, Take a day with Dive South East Asia, The bcd's look like there years old, straps missing, leaking inflators, generally just falling to pieces. Regulators with damaged hoses, leaking guages etc etc. On the other end of the spectrum there is one Pattaya dive centre that has all Apecks rental regs & Tusa / scubapro bcd's. Once again this problem is not exclusive to Pattaya.

I think you would get a lot more out of your posts if you were slight less general and more specific. There are some genuine good dive operations in Pattaya that do not deserve to be generalised with the dross.

[lord khram]

I think you would get a lot more out of your posts if you were slight less general and more specific. There are some genuine good dive operations in Pattaya that do not deserve to be generalised with the dross.

Yes I agree, of course theres good and bad everywhere, but as I spend most of my time and predominantly dive around Pattaya most of my recent diving experiences are in this area.
With regard to the 30 metres viz comment, certaily not a joke, it was someone trying to sell me some diving.
The DMT had done all his courses at the same shop, admittedly at different times with different instructors.
You want me to be specific, then fine, the illegal instructors are at Dive South East Asia. Personally if they do not hold the correct visas to work in Thailand, it would ring alarm bells, are they even qualified instructors?

And yes manybe you are right, it probably does go on in other parts of Thailand, but I am not aware myself of this type of thing in other areas.

[DevonDiver]

Illegal instructors, one particular shop has only 2 instructors, both are on tourist visas, correct me if i am wrong but you are not allowed to hold a permit to work in Thailand with a tourist visa?

This is common everywhere in ASIA, let alone in Thailand or even Pattaya. The rules and costs for Thai visas effectively prohibit most dive instructors from getting them.

If shops stuck to the visa rules absolutely, then the dive industry in Thailand would grind to a halt rather suddenly. From what I heard, Pattaya is one of the places where work visas were more prevalent....


Unqualified people, I personally while acting as a dive guide at one shop was asked to conduct an advanced course, and I know of many other instances.

Conduct the course or the dives? If you are a certified DM, then you can conduct many of the dives from the AOW programme under indirect supervision of an instructor. The common exceptions are deep and wreck. An instructor must conduct the theory/knowledge review and the certification.

Depending on the specific request...and your certification....then this could be an entirely reasonable request.


Lie to customers, Only last week i was told 30 m viz at ko sak. No need to say more on that one, take the 0 off and your closer to the mark.

I fail to see why a dive center would lie about something so obviously proven wrong...especially to a local diver like yourself. Are sure sure there wasn't a mistranslation, attempt at humor...or even an honest slip of the tongue (verbal typo)?


Dont train properly, How about a DMT that paniked because he couldnt clear his own mask,

If it was a DMT, then this comment has little relevance. Surely, the purpose of the DM TRAINEE programme is to identify and correct issues such as this. If it were a qualified DM that panicked because of water in the mask, then this would have some semblance of merit....

Besides....we all have bad days in the water. Unless you know the full circumstances, background etc...then your example does not justify your point.



Poor Equipment, Take a day with Dive South East Asia, The bcd's look like there years old, straps missing, leaking inflators, generally just falling to pieces. Regulators with damaged hoses, leaking guages etc etc.

Ha ha.... this is common in dive centers around the world. Well used equipment degrades quickly....and customers are notorious for not informing staff of any issues that they have with the kit they use (scared they will be blamed for breakages etc???).

I am not excusing dive centers for having delapidated kit.... but it is a fact of life that some dive centers will hold on to kit when it should be scrapped. This is an issue caused by the management of individual dive centers. As such, it is grossly unfair to claim that every dive center is Pattaya is badly managed and has low standards. How could that be?

Besides...what was your reaction to the bad equipment? Did you highlight the faults to a staff member, so that they could be rectified....or did you just hand the kit back in silently...and then rush to the internet where you could bad mouth them?


Yes I agree, of course theres good and bad everywhere, but as I spend most of my time and predominantly dive around Pattaya most of my recent diving experiences are in this area.
Then perhaps you should go and dive in other places....so that you could make an accurate comparison. If you dont have experience elsewhere, how the hell can you single out Pattaya for criticism....


You want me to be specific, then fine, the illegal instructors are at Dive South East Asia. Personally if they do not hold the correct visas to work in Thailand, it would ring alarm bells, are they even qualified instructors?

In places like Phi Phi, koh Tao and Borneo...most of the instructors are not on work visas. It is simply to expensive when balanced against their salaries. The majority of instructors in Thailand work on a casual/freelance basis....getting paid only for the work they do. There is no way they could afford work visas on that pay.

My experience on Tao was that only the dive shop managers ever needed to get work permits...because they had business obligations and needed to sign paperwork. There were never any inspections by the Thai Govt for work permits during the 2 years I worked there...and if there were....then Tao would have ceased to exist as a diving destination overnight.

Many of the instructors working there are hugely experienced...and have worked in many other dive destinations around the globe.... but they simply are not going to spend XXXXxXX baht on work permits/visas, when they only earn a few thousand baht for teaching a course.

To leap to a wild assumption that lack of work visa has any link to their professional credentials as dive instructors is simply laughable....and only serves to highlight your complete ignorance of the dive industry.


And yes manybe you are right, it probably does go on in other parts of Thailand, but I am not aware myself of this type of thing in other areas.

Then go get some wider experience before you start posting authoratitive comments on public forums. Some of the members here might be inexperienced and naive enough to actually take you seriously.... :shakehead:

[Aquanauts Pattaya]

I swore I wasn't going to comment on this, but the more he drones on about it just begs the question:

How does one's possession of the little blue book have even the slightest thing to do with the quality of the instructor?

I'd challenge you to find more than a handful of instructors -- if that many -- in Phi Phi with work permits. When we were placing some instructors there I asked about it and was told flat out Immigration doesn't check on the island.

So, by LK's reasoning, all the instructors on Phi Phi must be crap.

Does he have a work permit for whatever he does to support himself in Thailand? If not, then is he crap at it?

I've been searching for the correct adjective, but all I can up with is "stupid." As in it's a stupid argument.

And yes, I have a WP.

[Apecks]

And yes manybe you are right, it probably does go on in other parts of Thailand, but I am not aware myself of this type of thing in other areas.

It does happen.

I have had more than my fair share of bad experiences in other spots!

One particular day trip in Phuket was memorable - going to a different dive site than the one we book on for, having to kit up on the back platform, overloaded boat, not enough lead, part filled tanks, buddy teams vastly unmatched, in-experienced divemasters, divers going over there cert level and panicing, lost kit and obnoxious management on the pier.

Did it put me off Phuket - no of course not, it has some of the best diving in the world.

Would I dive with that dive operator again - no way.

[Bowmouth]

Would I dive with that dive operator again - no way.

Yep, one can get disappointed in Phuket too.
Still, I would love to know who you dived with....
:D

[lord khram]

Devon Diver you are talking absolute crap again, please read what I have written.

I can assure you that Immigration officials in Pattaya are very keen on the work permits. infact on this forum some shops have even used the Thai beurocracy as one justification for the high prices they charge.

Please read what i wrote 'I was asked to conduct a course' At the time I was not a PADI DM but have equivalent and more advanced qualifications through another agency.

I can assure you the guy concerned with the 30m comment does not know me, I am told it is standard practice at the particular shop to get people on the boat. Definitely no joke.

With the flooded mask incident I was on the boat myself and was told by the instructor concerned that the guy stated he had never been shown to clear the mask on any earlier course. If you think a dm candidate is acceptable to not have the basic open water skills, then the PADI standards are even worse than i first thought.

I dont rent kit, I have my own, however If I was to be offered substandard kit, I most certainly would complain about it.

With regard to your comment about my experience, I can assure you that I have done several thousand dives at a wide variety of locations and conditions, including cave diving and deep dives with mixed gasses, so I do know what I am talking about. I can assure you that my comments are based on facts unlike the assumtions used in your reply.

May I be so bold as to suggest you try doing a few dives in the pattaya area yourself sometime before telling me i am talking nonsence.

[Apecks]

Yep, one can get disappointed in Phuket too.
Still, I would love to know who you dived with....
:D

Well you did ask, it was:-

Phuket Diving, Similan Dive, Liveaboard Phuket and Thailand by Diving Thailand. (http://www.westcoastdivers.com/)

Quite a big outfit by all accounts, maybe they just had a off day :shakehead:

We did take some photo's on the boat at the time because we did not think people would believe us. May be if Lord Khram starts his 'name & shame' thread I will post them up. :D

[lord khram]

I swore I wasn't going to comment on this, but the more he drones on about it just begs the question:

How does one's possession of the little blue book have even the slightest thing to do with the quality of the instructor?

I'd challenge you to find more than a handful of instructors -- if that many -- in Phi Phi with work permits. When we were placing some instructors there I asked about it and was told flat out Immigration doesn't check on the island.

So, by LK's reasoning, all the instructors on Phi Phi must be crap.

Does he have a work permit for whatever he does to support himself in Thailand? If not, then is he crap at it?

I've been searching for the correct adjective, but all I can up with is "stupid." As in it's a stupid argument.

And yes, I have a WP.

Hello again Aquanauts, we havent spoke for a while, hope you are all ok.
I never said all instructors at any resort are crap, only my point is if an individual or organisation is prepared to lie/cheat over one piece of paper (visa) maybe they could do it about another one (instructor card).
I dont need a work permit, can support myself in Thailand quite comfortably thanks doing nothing. Its great, you should give it a try.
If yourself and your business are 100% legal as you state, and I have no reason to disbelieve you. How do you feel about other shops on your doorstep cutting corners and costs, the end result maybe to undercut your prices and take business from yourself?
In the real world thats called unfair competition.

Nice to see we are talking again.

[lord khram]

Well you did ask, it was:-

Phuket Diving, Similan Dive, Liveaboard Phuket and Thailand by Diving Thailand. (http://www.westcoastdivers.com/)

Quite a big outfit by all accounts, maybe they just had a off day :shakehead:

We did take some photo's on the boat at the time because we did not think people would believe us. May be if Lord Khram starts his 'name & shame' thread I will post them up. :D

I think such a thread would be a good idea to assist people in making their choices when selecting a shop.
However to make it work we must leave our positive experiences as well.
Hopefully this would encourage the bad shops to book their ideas up, and the good ones would encourage it because it would be free publicity.
Everybody is a winner. Oh appart from the bad boys of course.

[DevonDiver]

Devon Diver you are talking absolute crap again, please read what I have written.

Not really, I know the dive industry quite well...I also know Thailand quite well.

Congrats on being the first moron on here to be promoted to my ignore list :rofl3:

[lord khram]

Not really, I know the dive industry quite well...I also know Thailand quite well.

Congrats on being the first moron on here to be promoted to my ignore list :rofl3:

Thank ****** for that I get fedup explaining myself several times to morons that cant read, and would sooner speculate.

And if i decide to start the name and shame thread, your shop could be the first on the thread!

[Arizona]

LK...did you ever think about posting anything positive and helpful on the forum?

Perhaps the endless barrage of snide and unsubstantiated remarks is why you only ever got thanked once, despite being a regular contributor....

After reading recent posts in other threads I decided to remove the "Thank You". DevonDiver your posts have always been helpful. Time to move on...

[Bowmouth]

Well you did ask, it was:-

Quite a big outfit by all accounts, maybe they just had a off day :shakehead:

We did take some photo's on the boat at the time because we did not think people would believe us. May be if Lord Khram starts his 'name & shame' thread I will post them up. :D


I am surprised.
I had some other shops on my mind but not the one you referred to in your post.

I like to think any dive-boat operator every now and then will have a "bad day" and I do believe that most boat operators will try to deliver everything that they promise their clients.
Sometimes things do go (unintentionally) wrong, even on the best boats, with the best management and best crew available. It is of-course important that lessons are learned from "bad days" and that they do not keep happening over and over again.

I do not hope anyone will start a "name & shame" thread. That will likely become a witch hunt and reflect badly on the Thai diving industry as a whole.
Anyone having a seriously bad experience on a dive tour should rather contact the shop's management and make a formal complaint immediately after their trip. I don't think clients will be ridiculed by shop management if they have a valid complaint.

[limbo]

Fully agrre on your name & shame thread view, Bowmouth. Not a good idea.

There are different and imho better ways to deal with 'bad day' on the boat.

[josh]

There are different and imho better ways to deal with 'bad day' on the boat.

Indeed. And the first step is called "growing up". We have all had bad days with different operators. If its frequently bad, you move on and don't deal with them again.

Personally (and I expect, to get stick for this) I like Aquanauts. They have a comfortable boat, some of the best on board food (the fried chicken is awesome!) and they have always lent over backwards to accomodate me. I am happy to dive with them any time I get the chance.

[Arizona]

The nicest boat by far. No issues with the big two from my perspective either.

[lord khram]

Indeed. And the first step is called "growing up". We have all had bad days with different operators. If its frequently bad, you move on and don't deal with them again.

Personally (and I expect, to get stick for this) I like Aquanauts. They have a comfortable boat, some of the best on board food (the fried chicken is awesome!) and they have always lent over backwards to accomodate me. I am happy to dive with them any time I get the chance.

Why should you get stick for diving with Aquanauts. If it fulfills your requirements, thats all that matters.

Probably name and shame is the wrong name for a thread, because to make it informative and to assist people in selecting a shop, both good and bad experiences must be posted. And indeed one persons idea of a good day doesn't necesarilly agree with anothers. But a thread with a mix of opinions/experiences would I still feel be helpfull to people intending to dive in an area for the first time. and indeed if some shops constantly get bad remarks, maybe they could learn from that and change their ways to better suit their customers. And if they dont improve, then maybe this could prevent others from being ripped off in the future.
As I have said before, its not the things that go wrong that matter, it is the way they are dealt with.
What could we call the thread?

[lord khram]

After reading recent posts in other threads I decided to remove the "Thank You". DevonDiver your posts have always been helpful. Time to move on...

:crying2::crying:

[Apecks]

LK,

Have you ever looked at this forum?

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/whine-cheeze/

[lord khram]

LK,

Have you ever looked at this forum?

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/whine-cheeze/

No, but I will take a look later. Thanks for the advice.

[orangiraffe]

hi guys! thank you for all that posts. it had helped me! well...i've gone and come back from thailand. here is an update...

i took up my OW with BAN's/ Sunshine divers in thailand. don't know if you have heard of them but it was great. the academics was easily understood.

but you were right...the course fees did not include the cost of the manual. i too did not get a copy of it.

4 dives and i saw a ship wreck, stingrays, box fish, scorpion fish, lots of grouper...barracuda etc...

superb trip i had!!! :D

[Aquanauts Pattaya]

can you explain a bit more about the manual? Did you buy it and then sell back? Not get one at all?

And what did you pay for the course and what DID it include?

[orangiraffe]

oh well...it was a 4 day course.
on day one; half a day of academics. video 1-3
on day two; pool for skills and equipment familiarisation + half a day of academics. video 4 and 5
on day 3; dives 1 and 2 + EXAM
on day 4; dives 3 and 4.

The manual was not given to us but was borrowed. We can chose to buy them though. I didn't.

I paid 9000 THB' that includes 4 nights of accomodation. The rooms are not 5-star but they are clean, no hot water, just fan but towels provided (:

[Bowmouth]

oh well...it was a 4 day course.
on day one; half a day of academics. video 1-3
on day two; pool for skills and equipment familiarisation + half a day of academics. video 4 and 5
on day 3; dives 1 and 2 + EXAM
on day 4; dives 3 and 4.

The manual was not given to us but was borrowed. We can chose to buy them though. I didn't.

I paid 9000 THB' that includes 4 nights of accomodation. The rooms are not 5-star but they are clean, no hot water, just fan but towels provided (:


First of all I like to say that I'm happy for you that you enjoyed your course. You also got your OWD package for an incredibly low price. The price sounds so low to me that I wonder how the DC can make a reasonable profit out of it.

I do find it sad though that currently so many shops only take their student divers for just 1 session in the pool. It's the same here in Phuket; Open Water Course students are often being rushed through the course in a 3-day program with only ONE pool session. Not much time to "master" the skills I think or to let the student diver become comfortable with the equipment. I also feel that "borrowing" the manual isn't right. The PADI OWD manual is a great reference tool for student divers and should be included in the course price.

[stevenl]

Yes, second day in the pool is much easier for the students, but just one day in the pool saves time and more importantly money.


I also feel that "borrowing" the manual isn't right.Not only you feel that way, it is a gross violation of PADI standards.

I'm glad you were happy with the course, but judging by the setup: not exactly high quality.

[Aquanauts Pattaya]

I certainly hope that if PADI sends the giraffe a QA questionaire he/she mentions they let him borrow the book. We all need to play by the same rules.

[Arizona]

That certainly shaves a bit off the price! Were the knowledge reviews completed? It is an excellent reference that you are missing out on. I wonder if their work around is to give you a bootleg copy of the OW video?

[lord khram]

First of all I like to say that I'm happy for you that you enjoyed your course. You also got your OWD package for an incredibly low price. The price sounds so low to me that I wonder how the DC can make a reasonable profit out of it.

I do find it sad though that currently so many shops only take their student divers for just 1 session in the pool. It's the same here in Phuket; Open Water Course students are often being rushed through the course in a 3-day program with only ONE pool session. Not much time to "master" the skills I think or to let the student diver become comfortable with the equipment. I also feel that "borrowing" the manual isn't right. The PADI OWD manual is a great reference tool for student divers and should be included in the course price.

Something strange here we keep agreeing.
How do you feel about the OWC being done in 2 days with no pool training?
When i was new to diving I used my manual for reference numerous times after i had passed my course, invaluable i think to refresh yourself on those little details you forgot

[lord khram]

I certainly hope that if PADI sends the giraffe a QA questionaire he/she mentions they let him borrow the book. We all need to play by the same rules.

Speaking of playing by the same rules, is Joe at DSEA still using instructors on tourist visa's, and without work permits?

[Bowmouth]

How do you feel about the OWC being done in 2 days with no pool training?

I think any DC doing 2-day OWD courses without confined water training should be banned for life from conducting scuba training classes.

[lord khram]

I think any DC doing 2-day OWD courses without confined water training should be banned for life from conducting scuba training classes.

Yet again we agree????
But believe me it is going on all the time. trouble is I get criticised too much for speaking out about such instances, which maybe falsely leads me to believe others are in agreement with the bad practices.
Maybe I will start a new thread to highlight good and bad shops, to help people make more informed choices. And maybe help the bad ones see the error of their ways

[Bowmouth]

But believe me it is going on all the time.

I find it hard to believe that reputable DC's (here in Thailand or anywhere else for that matter) would agree in conducting 2 day OWD courses without confined water training.

[lord khram]

I find it hard to believe that reputable DC's (here in Thailand or anywhere else for that matter) would agree in conducting 2 day OWD courses without confined water training.

Dive South East Asia in Pattaya, they do it all the time, never do pool training, just 2 short days on the boat and away you go.
Similar procedures for the advanced and rescue courses unfortunately.

[josh]

I find it hard to believe that reputable DC's (here in Thailand or anywhere else for that matter) would agree in conducting 2 day OWD courses without confined water training.


There might be a discongruity here in that "confined water" does not equal absolutely "swimming pool". I note that LK said "pool" and you replied using "confined water".

My understanding is that the sea can be used so long as it meets certain criteria (have to go to my manual for the exact wording).

[katdiver]

That's right, "confined open water" is an option. All the same though 2 days is too short for am open water course, but I've only seen it done here amongst the single man shops.

[lord khram]

That's right, "confined open water" is an option. All the same though 2 days is too short for am open water course, but I've only seen it done here amongst the single man shops.

Dont want to be accused of pattaya bashing on the wrong thread, but i have witnessed this personallynumerous times over a long period with several different instructors.
Pressure from the management I think, that in turn maybe something to do with the rapid turnover of instructors at this shop.

[Bowmouth]

There might be a discongruity here in that "confined water" does not equal absolutely "swimming pool". I note that LK said "pool" and you replied using "confined water".

My understanding is that the sea can be used so long as it meets certain criteria (have to go to my manual for the exact wording).

Personally I prefer to use the term "confined water". Confined water can be a swimming-pool or any other body of water that has "pool-like" conditions.
I have done "confined" water training with my dive students off the beach (on very-very calm days) and in some shallow fresh water quarries as well.

[Bowmouth]

Dive South East Asia in Pattaya, they do it all the time, never do pool training, just 2 short days on the boat and away you go.

Just had a look at their website. This is what it says:
Open Water + Advanced (5 days, 5 pool + 9 ocean dives) 28000


This likely means a 3-day OWD course (with the 5 pool "dives") and a 2-day AOW course.

Are you sure they do the OWD course in just two days without any confined water (pool) training???

[Bowmouth]

.... 2 days is too short for am open water course, but I've only seen it done here amongst the single man shops.

What does a two-day OWD course structure look like?

[lord khram]

Are you sure they do the OWD course in just two days without any confined water (pool) training???

100% sure, seen it loads of times, and the instructors are given grief from above if they take more than 2 days to complete the OWC.
Judging by the prices you have seen on their website, it is way out of date. Their actual procedure is OWC - 2 days, 4 ocean dives, AOW - 3 days, (2 days if customer wants to) 5 ocean dives.
Things seem to be run their on a very sloppy manner, the instructors dont even have the correct work permits and visas, so it doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

[Aquanauts Pattaya]

Spending a lot of time stalking DSEA instructors are you? If they do a 4-day OW course in 2 days, why would they do a 2-day AOW course over three days.

I'm not pal with owner Joe, but LK is wrong. (Big surprise there.) I know for a fact the pool they use, which pool it is and when they use it. After all, we are neighbors.

Now why would I defend DSEA?

[Bowmouth]

If they do a 4-day OW course in 2 days, why would they do a 2-day AOW course over three days.

.. LK is wrong. (Big surprise there.) I know for a fact the pool they use, which pool it is and when they use it. After all, we are neighbors.


I find it also hard to believe.
And I find it impossible to think of any OWD course schedule that would fit in just two days time.

[lord khram]

Not entering into protracted discussions, particularly with aquaclowns.
I am merely stating my numerous observations and those of others over a long period. And the particular experiences of two friends that I regretably sent there for the OWC.
As I have stated on another thread we are all entitled to express our views and observations freely, up to you, believe it or not believe, I really dont care.

[Apecks]

They are always a number of stories banding about in Pattaya regarding DSEA and there courses so I would not dispute LK's observations out of hand.

I have personally met a guy who did his rescue & DM there that did not own or had not seen / used either of the course materials for either course. He ended up retaking the courses with another dive centre!

[penguintom]

They are always a number of stories banding about in Pattaya regarding DSEA and there courses so I would not dispute LK's observations out of hand.

I have personally met a guy who did his rescue & DM there that did not own or had not seen / used either of the course materials for either course. He ended up retaking the courses with another dive centre!

I dont like the sound of that at all, think thats 2 shops off my list already and I have not even arrived in Pattaya yet. LOL
Good job there is lots to chose from.

[Bowmouth]

I have personally met a guy who did his rescue & DM there that did not own or had not seen / used either of the course materials for either course. He ended up retaking the courses with another dive centre!

Did your friend make any formal complaints about this to PADI HQ (QA Dept.)?

[Bowmouth]

I am merely stating my numerous observations and those of others over a long period. And the particular experiences of two friends that I regretably sent there for the OWC.

Have you or your friends contacted PADI HQ about this?

[lord khram]

Have you or your friends contacted PADI HQ about this?

I haven't and dont think my friends did, but in my experience thats nothing more than a further waste of time.

[orangiraffe]

Hi all...I have no idea what the hell is the difference between POOL and confined? POOL=CONFINED right? Isn't the pool confined enough? It's not just a 1-m deep pool...it's deep enough for some skills training; 3m. Yes, all the knowledge review were completed. I mean it is simple enough for a ten year old. My bf is a fireman, I am a college undergrad majoring in Engineering and there was also a US soldier in our team. Seriously, the knowledge review were really really peanuts. It could possibly take me a few hours to understand all of it.

But of course, terms and important words used in diving need to be learnt, and USED often! But you DMs and Instructors tell me...how many people who take the certifications actually dive often enough to actually remember them? What is the definition of HIGH QUALITY.

I do not see any trouble with not buying a copy of the MANUAL. The manual is really heavy. My bf and I were backpacking and the manual took too much space. We decided that the internet is a great resource and the MANUAL can be bought back here in Singapore. No problem right?

Business is business. Dive schools offer courses. Personally I enjoyed my time with my instructor. 2 days in on the boat? I saw so many things... How many first-time divers actuallky get to see a WRECK? you tell me?

I still remember this

BRUCE (BCD)
WILLIS (Weights)
RUINS (Releases)
ALL (Air)
FILMS (Final Check for masks and flippers)

Incidentally, you can also find this in wikipedia. WoopS. They even use the same anagram on WIki!!!

[Aquanauts Pattaya]

I prefer:

B = Bangkok
W = Women
A = Are
R = Real
F = Fun

And, PenguinTom, you said TWO shops? Who's the other off your list and why?

[jkaterenchuk]

I find it also hard to believe.
And I find it impossible to think of any OWD course schedule that would fit in just two days time.

If they are giving a PADI cert then it would be against standards. Standard say that there can be a maximum of 3 training dives in any one day. Hence it takes two days to do the required open water dives to stay within standards. It would not seem reasonable that you could then squeeze the other confined water dives plus academics into the balance of the second day.

John

[Bowmouth]

If they are giving a PADI cert then it would be against standards. Standard say that there can be a maximum of 3 training dives in any one day. Hence it takes two days to do the required open water dives to stay within standards. It would not seem reasonable that you could then squeeze the other confined water dives plus academics into the balance of the second day.

John

Exactly.
A full Open Water Diver Course would basically be impossible to do in just two days.

But maybe the two day courses as mentioned by some of the posters were students completing OWD Referral courses? That's the only OWD course I can think of that will work in two days.

[Bowmouth]

I haven't and dont think my friends did, but in my experience thats nothing more than a further waste of time.

PADI will act upon PADI members that "bend" the rules but can only do so if they receive a formal complaint. Gross violations of standards may result in being expelled from PADI.

[Apecks]

Did your friend make any formal complaints about this to PADI HQ (QA Dept.)?

No I do not think he did. He put it down to another this is thailand experience and moved on.

[stevenl]

I prefer:

B = Bangkok
W = Women
A = Are
R = Real
F = Fun

And, PenguinTom, you said TWO shops? Who's the other off your list and why?

Make sure you bet the order correct next time.

I use 2:
B = Bangkok
W = Women
R = Really
A = Are
F = Fellas; or

B = Beautiful (or brown, black, whatever)
W = Women
R = Really
A = Are
F = Fun.

[Batfish]

I really must say something.

I like many movies that feature Bruce Willis. The Fifth Element - one of my favourites. Die Hard and Die Hard 2, yes! And he was in Sin City and Pulp Fiction, cool! 6th Sense, Armageddon also good. I am sure he has done some stinkers too, but really.

I do not believe anyone can do a 2 day open water course. It's impossible. 3 full days is normally fine, we do it that way, but if a student needs more pool time to get comfortable, we extend to 4 days. We normally have very small classes, 1 or 2 students. If there are 3 or 4 students, then 4 days makes more sense, as the pool does take longer. We don't do more than 4 in one class anyway.

[stevenl]

I do not believe anyone can do a 2 day open water course. It's impossible.Totally agree.

When I first started working we did open water courses in 5 days. And that was provided they had read the manual and answered the knowledge reviews, otherwise we would simply send them home (hotel) to finish.

Here we prefer to conduct the courses in 4 days. With 2 days boat we only do 4 days, with 1 day beach and 1 day boat we also offer 3 days. And I do notice a big difference in the courses, students are better prepared and turn out better divers if they spend 2 days doing pool practice compared to just one day.

[Aquanauts Pattaya]

There actually is a way to do a 2-day OWC, thanks to eLearning.

We, too, offer a 3-day option for those that are really pressed for time, although we tell the customers we don't recommend it. However, now, if they do eLearning, they can do confined water and Dive 1 the first day and Dives 2-4 the second day.

Voila... a 2-day Open Water course.

Oh, Steven.... thanks for remixing my letters. It was pretty late when I posted that!

And finally, when you get into discussing the merits of Bruce Willis movies, you know the thread has completely gone off topic. (But I do like some of his flix, too...)

[stevenl]

There actually is a way to do a 2-day OWC, thanks to eLearning.With e-learning we offer the course in 3 days, never in 2.

[Aquanauts Pattaya]

We've never done one either, but, if you think about it, if you do a 3-day, with the first day being classroom only and then days 2-3 doing confined and open, there's not really a lot of difference.

[stevenl]

if you do a 3-day, with the first day being classroom only and then days 2-3 doing confined and open, there's not really a lot of difference.I really don't like those courses. Get the students in the water on at least 2 different days, that makes a hell of a difference in their performance. And one day theory is for me not an option, we're not doing that. I want our students diving, not sitting in a classroom, and a full day theory is too much anyway.

[lord khram]

I do not believe anyone can do a 2 day open water course. It's impossible.

I completely agree Batfish, and also with the similar statement made by Bowmouth, but there are open water courses and there are 'open water courses'.
These were being done with no E learning, and in 2 not very long days. I did my OWC in the UK many years ago and it took me 3 days + 2 days for the 4 open water training dives. What we did would be utterly impossible to complete in 2 sessions of around 6-7 hours.

Aquanauts also made a statement:


There actually is a way to do a 2-day OWC, thanks to eLearning.

We, too, offer a 3-day option for those that are really pressed for time, although we tell the customers we don't recommend it. However, now, if they do eLearning, they can do confined water and Dive 1 the first day and Dives 2-4 the second day.

Voila... a 2-day Open Water course.

Need I say any more?

[lord khram]

PADI will act upon PADI members that "bend" the rules but can only do so if they receive a formal complaint. Gross violations of standards may result in being expelled from PADI.

That's anything but my experience.
I had problems once obtaining a certification. Upon visiting the shop concerned (who used freelance instructors), I was told nothing to do with us, it's the instructors responsibility, we paid him the money.
I asked to speak to him only to be told he doesnt work here any more.
There followed considerable communication with PADI, resulting in nothing, my last correspondence was not even replied to.
I eventually recieved my certification by paying the fee again at another shop, and PADI gladly accepted that of course.
Which brings us back to the old cliche - Pay Another Dollar In!!

[Aquanauts Pattaya]

Originally posted by Lord Kram
Need I say any more?

I really wish you wouldn't!

I beleive if you do a little searching right here on SB you'll find a thread about a course director who was expelled by PADI. And that organization sure seems to kill a lot of trees printing pages and pages of lists of people and dive shops kicked out.

[Bowmouth]

That's anything but my experience.
I had problems once obtaining a certification. Upon visiting the shop concerned (who used freelance instructors), I was told nothing to do with us, it's the instructors responsibility, we paid him the money.
I asked to speak to him only to be told he doesnt work here any more.
There followed considerable communication with PADI, resulting in nothing, my last correspondence was not even replied to.
I eventually recieved my certification by paying the fee again at another shop, and PADI gladly accepted that of course.
Which brings us back to the old cliche - Pay Another Dollar In!!

Your experience sounds more like a "bad shop attitude" than "bad PADI attitude" to me.
The shop you did your course with should have kept your student record file with all the relevant certification details on it. If a student does not receive his/her C-card after completing a course all he/she has to do is to contact the shop (email is fine) and ask for the relevant info (certification date, certifying Instructors name and PADI # and course specifics). If you do your course with a proper DC they will enter all those details in your logbook too. If you then provide PADI with those details they will (most of the time) swiftly re-issue a new C-card for you.

To me it sounds like the shop you did your course with did NOT send in a PIC to PADI. The PIC is basically the payment to PADI with your contact details and signature on it as well (and a picture) for issuing your C-card and is in general included in all the course prices by most DC's. DC's are mostly taking care of sending out the PICS after completion of the dive-course.
Without the PIC being send to PADI a C-card will not be issued. PADI is a business and they would like to have a piece of the pie too!!

[lord khram]

Your experience sounds more like a "bad shop attitude" than "bad PADI attitude" to me.

Yes this worked exactly as you said Bowmouth, and I agree a very bad shop attitude, incidentally it is no longer in existence. (I shall not mention the location but it begins with P). LOL
But as this shop/instructor are representing the PADI organisation I just thought they may have taken a little more interest in the problem I had. I know it was a relatively small ammount of money but the end result was that I had to pay this money twice, agreed PADI are a business and are there to make a proffit, but surely even they can not consider that to be fair treatment of one of their customers.
Mine is not the only instance such as this that I am aware of.
In my mind ultimately it was the shops responsibility to entirely fulfill this obligation regardless of who they had employed or paid to do the course. It was the shop I paid. But ultimately PADI did absolutely nothing to help, even when their standards had quite clearly been broken.

I have copied the following from one of your earlier posts.

PADI will act upon PADI members that "bend" the rules but can only do so if they receive a formal complaint. Gross violations of standards may result in being expelled from PADI.

[Bowmouth]

In my mind ultimately it was the shops responsibility to entirely fulfill this obligation regardless of who they had employed or paid to do the course. It was the shop I paid. But ultimately PADI did absolutely nothing to help, even when their standards had quite clearly been broken.

It probably will be impossible to find out what exactly happened with your student record files since the DC doesn't exist anymore. Do you (still) have your certifying instructor name and number somewhere in your dive log?
The DC's store-name and number would also be helpful in obtaining some more information from PADI about what happened from their point of view. And of-course any old mailings between yourself, PADI and the DC regarding this matter.

Hmmm, the place you took the course starts with a P....
Was it in Phitsanulok? Or maybe Patthalung? Pathum Thani or Pattani????
:rofl3:

[lord khram]

The shop still had all the records at the time but simply refused to obtain my certification as they said this portion of the course fee had already been given to the instructor to send in to PADI.
They told me I must contact him myself as he no longer worked there, and refused to give me his contact details.
I did in fact recieve my cert card in the end when another shop in p****** obtained the records and sent it into padi on my behalf once I had paid them the fee again, cant remember but I think it was about 1100bt.
Just seemed highly irregular at the time and even more so when PADI took no interest at all.

I will give you a clue - The location was a large tourist resort in Chonburi province!

[orangiraffe]

If they are giving a PADI cert then it would be against standards. Standard say that there can be a maximum of 3 training dives in any one day. Hence it takes two days to do the required open water dives to stay within standards. It would not seem reasonable that you could then squeeze the other confined water dives plus academics into the balance of the second day.

John

oh well...it was a 4 day course.
on day one; half a day of academics. video 1-3
on day two; pool for skills and equipment familiarisation + half a day of academics. video 4 and 5
on day 3; dives 1 and 2 + EXAM
on day 4; dives 3 and 4.

Well all 4 Open Water dives are done over 2 days? What are you talking about? I did not complete my OW in 2 days! Hmm...:confused:

[orangiraffe]

EVERYBODY! Sunshine Divers do their OW courses in 4 DAYS! not 2!!! (:

[Quero]

orangiraffe--the members got off on a tangent.

This happened in the natural flow of discussion. The fact that you did not receive a manual led to a consensus that this is a violation of agency standards, and further, speculation that it may not be an isolated incident.

From that grew a related discussion of other sorts of potential standards violations, such as skipping certain required parts of the course in order to shorten it.

Amidst the debate about course length (and between the lines) is speculation about whether it is ethical (given the nature of the sport) to complete the course in two days, even if it is possible to do so according to a strict interpretation of the standards, and if so, under what conditions (e-learning was mentioned, for example).

We know your course took four-ish days (you said the first day was just half a day). But the failure of the school to make sure you have your own personal copy of the manual (which is required by standards, regardless of how much the book weighs) naturally leads those of us who adhere to standards to wonder what other standards violations schools engage in to cheapen their courses, in both the literal and figurative senses.

[lord khram]

leads those of us who adhere to standards to wonder what other standards violations schools engage in to cheapen their courses, in both the literal and figurative senses

And unfortunately an element 'cheapen' their courses in every way possible except the final cost to the customer.

[orangiraffe]

orangiraffe--the members got off on a tangent.

This happened in the natural flow of discussion. The fact that you did not receive a manual led to a consensus that this is a violation of agency standards, and further, speculation that it may not be an isolated incident.

From that grew a related discussion of other sorts of potential standards violations, such as skipping certain required parts of the course in order to shorten it.

Amidst the debate about course length (and between the lines) is speculation about whether it is ethical (given the nature of the sport) to complete the course in two days, even if it is possible to do so according to a strict interpretation of the standards, and if so, under what conditions (e-learning was mentioned, for example).

We know your course took four-ish days (you said the first day was just half a day). But the failure of the school to make sure you have your own personal copy of the manual (which is required by standards, regardless of how much the book weighs) naturally leads those of us who adhere to standards to wonder what other standards violations schools engage in to cheapen their courses, in both the literal and figurative senses.

OK. Thanks. You put me into perspective there. Hahaha. It is compulsory for every student to own a manual? :D

[limbo]

Orangegiraffe,

Yes, it is indeed compulsary by PADI standards that each student owns a manual.

[orangiraffe]

Orangegiraffe,

Yes, it is indeed complusary by PADI standards that each student owns a manual.

Really? Hmm...Now I'm beginning to wonder. Is there anywhere, anyhow I can get more information about the rules and regulations?

:)

[limbo]

Ho Orangegiraffe,

One place to find out about the PADI standards is in the PADI Instructor Manual, this manual has all these standards in it, and each member is obliged to update his/her personal copy of this Instructor Manual every 3 months.

[orangiraffe]

Hey limbo..Thanks so much! I think I'm going to buy a manual for myself. Do you have any idea where I can get one for myself? Local bookstore? hahaha :D

[Apecks]

Singapore PADI Scuba Diving Centre:.Waikiki Dive Centre:.Five star Training Agency:.Scuba Equipment Retailer:.Deepoutdoors:.Tilos:.Henderson:.Camaro:. Mares:.Dacor:.Sherwood:.Tusa:.Bare:.Mask (http://www.waikikidive.com/index.html)

[Quero]

Hey limbo..Thanks so much! I think I'm going to buy a manual for myself. Do you have any idea where I can get one for myself? Local bookstore? hahaha :D

Just go to any PADI dive shop and you can buy one. It's great to have it to review what you learned. The course goes by so fast that you don't always remember the details.

[stevenl]

Umm, the talk was of an Instructor Manual.

[Quero]

umm ... and there was also talk of a student manual earlier. I'll admit that orangiraffe's latest post is a bit ambiguous. As it makes little sense for a newly-certified OW diver who doesn't yet own even an OW manual to spring for the entire IM, I'll also admit that I assumed the more logical of the two interpretations.

[Apecks]

[QUOTE=orangiraffe;4583933]It is compulsory for every student to own a manual? :D[/QUOTE

No it was'nt

[limbo]

Apecks,

Don't confuse the issue, indeed it wasn't, but since over 2 years it is compulsary, so at the time being when Orangegiraffe completed her PADI OW course, she was required to have her own copy of the PADI OW manual.

[josh]

Indeed. The Instructors manual is very clear on this point that an OW student is required to have their own personal copy of the OW manual (or multimedia equivalent) so that it is available afterwards (If I remember this was the result of a court case in USA).

The responsibility for compliance of this requirement is laid firmly upon the shop/instructor/CD.

(section course standards and overview in Instr. Manual)

[lord khram]

I'm not pal with owner Joe, but LK is wrong. (Big surprise there.) I know for a fact the pool they use, which pool it is and when they use it. After all, we are neighbors.

Go on then Aquanauts tell us all??

[orangiraffe]

Is there a difference the student manual and the instructor manual? Could you tell me which is use for what?

[lord khram]

Is there a difference the student manual and the instructor manual? Could you tell me which is use for what?

Think you already answered that one yourself!

Believe it or not, the instructor manual is for the use of a diving instructor, and the student manual is for the use of a training diver. 2 very different things.

[Bowmouth]

Is there a difference between the student manual and the instructor manual?

:rofl3:

Yes, there is.

The Instructor Manual is a manual with PADI rules, standards and guidelines for PADI Instructors. (it comes on a nice DVD nowadays at no extra cost as long as the Instructor renews his/hers PADI membership)

PADI Student Manuals are manuals designed for dive students for specific courses. (it is (mostly) a paper book one must purchase when doing a dive course. In Thailand it's very common for Dive Centers to include the student manual for most courses in the actual course price)

[Quero]

Is there a difference the student manual and the instructor manual? Could you tell me which is use for what?

The student's manual for each course provides information specific to the course of study and also furnishes learning aids to help learners internalize the information. It also outlines the specific skills students are expected to master in order to become certified.

The instructor's manual is a huge document that outlines standards and procedures for conducting nearly all courses. It does not provide much information that would be useful to someone learning to dive.

[orangiraffe]

It would be really useful if you could include a picture of both the Students manual and Instructors manual. I want to go diving again this December. It would be a really huge help. Do you have any idea where I can buy the official PADI logbook as well? Maybe a website?

[lord khram]

It would be really useful if you could include a picture of both the Students manual and Instructors manual. I want to go diving again this December. It would be a really huge help. Do you have any idea where I can buy the official PADI logbook as well? Maybe a website?

Just go in any PADI dive centre or look at the PADI website, they are well renowned for selling all sorts of crap at highly inflated prices.

'Pay Another Dollar In' ;)

[mgmonk]

'Pay Another Dollar In' ;)

:shakehead:

Really, bitter much?

All of us that have trained with PADI have our issues, and all of them get re-tread all over this board.

OG, i think you should re-read Quero's post about the INSTRUCTOR'S MANUAL vs the OPEN WATER DIVER STUDENT MANUAL.

The Instructor's Manual won't be much use for you regardless if you're diving in Dec or any other time unless you're considering a career in diving. If that's the case (or if you are REALLY curious about the minutia of the PADI training system), then you could find it anywhere that deals with PADI. Website, local shop, dive resort.... if they don't have one and you really want one... they'll order it for you. I'd recommend you looking at one and picking it up (you did mention backpacking) before buying it off a website. You'll find that it's pages and pages of how PADI defines the structure of courses taught and explanations of terminology relevant to TRAINING, but not so much to DIVING.

Yes, there's a multimedia version. But, really think about what use you would get out of any of this before spending any money. I don't know where you are now, but maybe you could stop by a local dive shop and ask to see one on a computer or flip through a paper copy?

The Student Manual is everything you learned in your OW course. It follows the same structure and information of the videos you saw. Obviously, it goes into some further detail, and it has diagrams, etc. Think of it as a reference manual. It might be VERY handy if you're going diving again after just finishing a course. Refresh your self on terms, equipment, and safety procedures.

Yes, Sunshine should have sold you one as part of the course. The old "library method" that was common on Koh Tao when I first came here was clamped down on severely by PADI years ago. Having worked around the island and on the other side for over 2 years now, that's the first I've heard of this in a long time. From PADI, anyway. There are other certification agencies that DON'T require each student having a manual, but PADI is very specific on this.

And as for the logbook... well, LK offered his usual stunning acerbic wit and pointed out you could buy one at a PADI shop or on the site. Just so you know, there are plenty of other types of logbooks out there. From as cheap as 50 baht (roughly a euro?). You can also buy any old binder or blank paper book and make your own. Logbooks and logging dives (outside of training) is purely a personal matter.

hope this was of some help.

I mean, jesus, it must have been better than the last post!

[lord khram]

All of us that have trained with PADI have our issues, and all of them get re-tread all over this board.

Really? Voicing issues about PADI on a website?
Is it not in the early chapters of the DM manual that you shall not speak a bad word about the almighty?
Obviously you are one of the fortunate ones that didn't get totally brainwashed.

[mgmonk]

And obviously you're the one who can't learn to separate the good from the bad. The useful from the useless. The relevant from the irrelevant. Everyone else's posts from yours.

[lord khram]

And obviously you're the one who can't learn to separate the good from the bad. The useful from the useless. The relevant from the irrelevant. Everyone else's posts from yours.

I appologise again for voicing my opinion.

maybe you have been brainwashed after all?

:mooner:

[Bowmouth]

It would be really useful if you could include a picture of both the Students manual and Instructors manual. I want to go diving again this December. It would be a really huge help. Do you have any idea where I can buy the official PADI logbook as well? Maybe a website?

Orangiraffe,

If you are interested in obtaining a copy of the PADI Instructor Manual then I could maybe help you out. I could give you (free of charge and no strings attached) the original 2008 multimedia (DVD) version. I get a new DVD Instructor Manual every year upon renewing my Teaching Status and don't really need the 2008 disc anymore.

[lord khram]

I must say Bowmouth that is most charitable of you.

Do you think the almighty will view your generosity with such enthusiasm?

[Bowmouth]

Do you think the almighty will view your generosity with such enthusiasm?

I think PADI is all for recycling and saving our planet. I rather make someone happy with the disc than tossing it in the bin and contributing to global warming....

:pirate2:

[lord khram]

I agree, and am serious when I said your actions are most charitable. There are not many that would do the same.

But seriously I think the almighty would rather sell a new one. When it comes to a choice between the environment and proffit, many companies show their true colours.

[orangiraffe]

Hey bowmouth that would be really nice? You're in Thailand? I'm located in Singapore..is it safe to have it mailed over? I could cover the charges for postage...

[orangiraffe]

I think you're absurdly insane. Your comment was totally irrelevant. I may be a new member to this forum but the thing you do with replying-to-every-post-even-though-it-is-not-relevant thing is totally crazy. Are you a native of Thailand? I was there a couple of times and just June when I was there, the natives are a 1000 times as UNrude as you.

[Bowmouth]

Hey bowmouth that would be really nice? You're in Thailand? I'm located in Singapore..is it safe to have it mailed over? I could cover the charges for postage...

Hi Giraffe,

Yes, I'm in Thailand (Phuket) and could mail it to you. No problem!!!
You could PM me and send me your snail-mail address. If the postal charges aren't too much I could take care of those as well.
:biggrin3:

[orangiraffe]

That is really nice of you (: I'll do that...

[Bowmouth]

That is really nice of you (: I'll do that...

I've send the Instructor Manual DVD to you yesterday. It should arrive in Singapore within 5 days or so.

Enjoy!!

:wavey: