My 1st Incident

[Spg01]

I am still a pretty new diver, but I am quite comfotable while diving. But I found out that a new buddy (also a new diver) was not quite so comfortable.

We were out at a dive site which I have dove 2 or 3 times with other divers, but the 1st time with this buddy. He has done well diving on a few previous dives. And since it looked like our 1st choice of sites would have bad conditions we decided on a site he had not been to.

I talked with an experianced buddy who gave me some pointers on a dive that would take us to about 50'. So I talked to my buddy about it and where we were going and he was ok with everything. So we headed out, got through the surf and did a kick out to what was supposed to be 40' and started to drop.

I was taking my time dropping and he was a little above me. We passed 30', then 40', then 50' so I started to slow down even more because I could not really see the bottom yet. I figured ok, so we are a little deep we will just level off and go towards shore until we hit the sand and everything is still ok. After all I had taken my compass readings and knew which way to go. I will admit it was kind of spooky just dropping into nothing only seeing a big black blob under us, but I was still ok with it.

That is when things started to get a little hairy. My buddy keeps dropping pretty fast and passes me a little and the next thing I know he is grabbing my console and my arm trying to pull me to the surface. The first thing I do is try to hold on to him and start dumping my BC to slow him down. It did not work very well, so we both went towards the surface from about 60'. I did manage to control my breathing on the way up, the thought of my lungs exploding helped me out quite a bit. I did manage to slow him down quite a bit, but not as much as I would have liked.

When we finally got to the surface and asked what the hell that was all about. He said his mask did not seal and he could not see anything and his eyes were burning and since things did not feel right he wanted to get to the surface. I did not agree with that theory, and he obviously did not take the same class that I did. So we floated at the surface for a while and he calmed down and neither of us died.

We ended up swiming towards shore and dropping down again and hit bottom at about 25', which made him feel much better. We finished the dive and got out of the water without any further incidents. I tried to talk to him a little more about how BAD it was to try and shoot to the surface from 60' and all he could say is thing weren't going right and he was not comfortable and could not see.

I am not sure if the mask thing was real or not, but he was freaked. I though he would be able to handle it, but I guess not. Maybe he is not ready for that depth yet in those conditions? Vis was about 10-15'. I did not think we planned a dangerous dive or that either of us was in danger, until he wanted to surface.

I am guessing that I should limit any further dives with him to shallow waters until he gets more time underwater. I want him to understand what he did was bad but not beat it into the ground. And I do not want to be in that situation with him again. So I think I handled it reasonably well, but I am wondering how to handle it from here on out.

[Cave Diver]

I am guessing that I should limit any further dives with him to shallow waters until he gets more time underwater. I want him to understand what he did was bad but not beat it into the ground. And I do not want to be in that situation with him again. So I think I handled it reasonably well, but I am wondering how to handle it from here on out.

Midwater descents in poor viz can be a bit spooky, especially to new divers. A slow descent, facing each other could have given a point of reference to both of you and allowed you to notice that his mask was flooding.

Starting the dive closer to the shore so you could follow the slope and correct any problems before you got too deep was another option.

Sounds like you did a good job of being there and preventing your buddy from bolting too rapidly and calming him on the surface. Take it easy, dive slow and build your confidence.

[mikemath]

... My buddy keeps dropping pretty fast and passes me a little and the next thing I know he is grabbing my console and my arm trying to pull me to the surface. The first thing I do is try to hold on to him and start dumping my BC to slow him down. It did not work very well, so we both went towards the surface from about 60'. I did manage to control my breathing on the way up, the thought of my lungs exploding helped me out quite a bit. I did manage to slow him down quite a bit, but not as much as I would have liked. ...

If you're being trained by PADI, I definitely advise you to take a Rescue Diver class once you're ready and meet the certification requirements. You did a good deed to limit the risk to your buddy, but you also put both of you at a higher overall risk. There are procedures you can follow with a panicked diver that you'll get a chance to learn and practice in that class. To start with, a quick "STOP" motion with the palm of your hand right in front of his face could have jerked him out of his tunnel vision about surfacing--if it worked, following that with a "CALM/SLOW DOWN" motion and slowly ascending would be ideal. If it didn't work, you still need to think of your own safety.

If a panicked diver is clawing at your stuff and they lose their regulator in the process, they may have no qualm about pulling yours out of your mouth. You need to push off from such divers, even if they are putting themselves at risk (in this case with a rapid ascent). They have lost rational control of their actions, and you need to find a way to calm them, either by focusing them or correcting the cause of their distress. If they do a rapid ascent without you, at least you'll be just a little ways behind them ready to assist. If they pull you both up at a dangerous rate, you both may end up bent and unable to get back to shore or signal for help.

The good news is, there's training available for these situations. Rescue Diver is a difficult but very satisfying course and a real confidence-builder. Good luck!

[Starlet]

Wow, glad you are both OK Spg01.

I can't wait to built on my skills and eventually be a qualified Rescue Diver.

[Jorgy]

I think I drive my buddies nuts.......on decent I am always asking "OK", "OK"......"OK" starting at about 8 feet till we get to the bottom.......then again at the bottom.....

Even going down a line, I will stop every 10-15 feet turn around and ask "OK"......and will not go on until I get an "OK" back........

My theory is that it is first 5 minutes of a dive when you find out if there is an issue.....mask seal, freeflow, leaking drysuit, etc........

Of course, with my close dive buddies, I ralax a bit......:)

M

Dive and let Dive.......

[TSandM]

A long drop in poor viz and steadily decreasing light, with no upline for reference, is a big challenge. When the bottom isn't where you expect it to be, and the depth becomes more than you are emotionally ready for, that's even more stress. And if, in fact, his mask was flooded or fogged and he couldn't even read his gauges . . . Well, that would have been enough for me, in the beginning, for sure. Your buddy didn't handle it well, because bolting to the surface isn't ever a good option, but he was clearly overfaced. I'm not sure I'd judge him on it, but I'd probably try to drop into known shallow water, or swim down and upslope until he has a bit more experience under his belt.

[openmindOW]

Sprg01, thank you for posting your story here on this forum. I am glad that everything turned out okay for both you and your dive buddy. You handled yourself well - congratulations.

I agree with the previous post which recommends further training; we can all benefit from additional training. Rescue classes, with any dive agency, provide an opportunity to learn valuable skills.

As for your buddy, every experienced diver has made mistakes or had bad experiences. Hopefully, your dive buddy will learn from this experience and consequently become a better diver.

If I may, I'd like to ask several questions for the purpose of gettting a better understanding of what happened.

1) Where did this occur? What was the dive site like?

2) What kind of thermal protection were you all wearing? (7 mm? Drysuit?)

3) Was your buddy wearing a hood?

4) Was your buddy using rental gear?

5) Was your buddy diving doubles or a single tank?

6) Do you know how much weight he had?

7) How deep was the bottom of your dive site?

8) Do you know when your buddy had last been diving?

Thanks again, Spg01, for your post.

Keep diving, my friend.

[fairybasslet]

Before I would dive with him again, I would want to make sure that he realized that he panicked. I would want him to realize that in other circumstances, the result might not have been so positive. I would want him to realize that a flooded mask or not being able to see is not a reason to panic. I would want him to promise that he will practice his skills more.

Ditto what Jorgy said. My buddies and I always watch each other on descents because that is where most things go fubar.

[Spg01]

Sprg01, thank you for posting your story here on this forum. I am glad that everything turned out okay for both you and your dive buddy. You handled yourself well - congratulations.

I agree with the previous post which recommends further training; we can all benefit from additional training. Rescue classes, with any dive agency, provide an opportunity to learn valuable skills.

As for your buddy, every experienced diver has made mistakes or had bad experiences. Hopefully, your dive buddy will learn from this experience and consequently become a better diver.

If I may, I'd like to ask several questions for the purpose of gettting a better understanding of what happened.

1) Where did this occur? What was the dive site like?

2) What kind of thermal protection were you all wearing? (7 mm? Drysuit?)

3) Was your buddy wearing a hood?

4) Was your buddy using rental gear?

5) Was your buddy diving doubles or a single tank?

6) Do you know how much weight he had?

7) How deep was the bottom of your dive site?

8) Do you know when your buddy had last been diving?

Thanks again, Spg01, for your post.

Keep diving, my friend.

1) Redondo (Vet's) Surf 1-2
2) He has a 7mm wetsuit and was wearing a vest
3) Yes
4) He rented a reg and BC
5) Single
6) 20 on his belt and 10 in his BC
7) Redondo goes to about 130, my guess would be we were around 80?
8) I dove with him a few weeks ago in Laguna

[Spg01]

A long drop in poor viz and steadily decreasing light, with no upline for reference, is a big challenge. When the bottom isn't where you expect it to be, and the depth becomes more than you are emotionally ready for, that's even more stress. And if, in fact, his mask was flooded or fogged and he couldn't even read his gauges . . . Well, that would have been enough for me, in the beginning, for sure. Your buddy didn't handle it well, because bolting to the surface isn't ever a good option, but he was clearly overfaced. I'm not sure I'd judge him on it, but I'd probably try to drop into known shallow water, or swim down and upslope until he has a bit more experience under his belt.

He did finally talk me into a 2nd dive, even though I was not so sure about it. I ended up dropping us rather early in about 20' so we would not have the same problem. We then followed the sand down and had a good dive. When we got out of the water he did ask why we dropped so early and shallow.:confused: All I could think is did he really had to ask that question?

[Spg01]

I think I drive my buddies nuts.......on decent I am always asking "OK", "OK"......"OK" starting at about 8 feet till we get to the bottom.......then again at the bottom.....

Even going down a line, I will stop every 10-15 feet turn around and ask "OK"......and will not go on until I get an "OK" back........

My theory is that it is first 5 minutes of a dive when you find out if there is an issue.....mask seal, freeflow, leaking drysuit, etc........

Of course, with my close dive buddies, I ralax a bit......:)

M

Dive and let Dive.......

I am guess I was not the best buddy in this respect. But I wonder why he waited so long if his mask was leaking. He said the mask seal was over his hood and I think you would catch that in the first few feet, not 50 feet.

I will work on my descent with a buddy. I guess I was just to used to dropping in 20' of water and not being a big deal. But dropping in the depth we were takes a few more steps.

[Teamcasa]

I am not sure if the mask thing was real or not, but he was freaked. I though he would be able to handle it, but I guess not. Maybe he is not ready for that depth yet in those conditions? Vis was about 10-15'. I did not think we planned a dangerous dive or that either of us was in danger, until he wanted to surface.


He did finally talk me into a 2nd dive, even though I was not so sure about it. I ended up dropping us rather early in about 20' so we would not have the same problem.

A comprehensive pre-dive plan helps when diving new sites with new buddies.

However, the main point is that panic or some sense of dread happens often early in the dive and more often in low or bad vis. The disorientation coupled with an unexpected depth can make some new divers want to bolt to the surface and you are both fortunate there were no issues.

In the future discuss the what if scenarios and the plan for mask floods, equalizing or gear problems. Slow your decents, stay close and face to face. Flash and recieve the OK every 3-4 feet. If you sense panic in your buddy, ask him and be calm and reassuring, but most of all - stop. Let him calm down or just thunb the dive and discuss the issues without recrimination. Sooner or later, you will have either a very good dive buddy or you may just need a new one.

[openmindOW]

Thank you again, Spg01.

Obviously, I have never met your dive buddy, but I wonder if he was a bit over-weighted. 30 lbs is a lot of weight - even with a 7mm suit. It is conceivable that the hood might have contributed to the leak into his mask. We'll never know.

[duskdiver]

It looks like he freaked out and just lost it!
Faked "mask" problems are number 2, on number 1 we have the so called "ear problem", on number 3 "I have or had a cold",...sounds to me this diver was just not ready for this dive and should get some proper training or quit diving.
I admire you for trying to help your buddy, but you should have stayed away from him, and from a distance try to calm him down.
Good lesson though, happy you both are fine.

[TheScubaBOB]

I'm currently in the middle of Rescue Diver (did class room last night, Pool will be tomorrow evening & Open Water will be Sunday).

Here's my observations based on what is posted here.

If it really was a mask seal over hood issue:

A buddy check at the surface would have found it. When diving with a hood I always ask my buddy if my mask seal is messed by my hood BEFORE venting my BCD.

On descent...

Buddies should be close enough to signal and see signals in the event of an issue arising.

At depth...

Once he realized he had a problem he failed to STOP, THINK and then ACT.

Had he signaled a problem to you, you could have helped by pulling the hood out of his mask seal. Then a simple mask clear would fix him right up.


Regarding the way events transpired:

Once he grabbed onto you like that he was a panicked diver. Actually if you had a good view of him just prior to the grab you would have seen him coming and could have backed away.

When he bolted for the surface and dumping your air wasn't enough to stop the ascent you should have done one of two things:

1) grabbed his dump valve to vent some of his air.
or
2) get free from his grip and assend at a safe rate.

I doubt I'd get back in the water with a diver who doesn't know they panicked and endangered both our lives.

[ligersandtions]

I am guess I was not the best buddy in this respect. But I wonder why he waited so long if his mask was leaking. He said the mask seal was over his hood and I think you would catch that in the first few feet, not 50 feet.

I will work on my descent with a buddy. I guess I was just to used to dropping in 20' of water and not being a big deal. But dropping in the depth we were takes a few more steps.

That's one of those things about doing a lot of shore diving....you get very used to dropping down into 20 feet of water, seeing the bottom, and being ready to orient yourself completely. To drop down into 80 feet of water, expecting to drop into 30 feet of water, in less than stellar vis, can play with one's mind a lot.

I think you did well. Your buddy, however, needs to understand that it's better to deal with issues underwater, rather than bolting to the surface. Is he on SB? Has he done a lot of reading/researching about diving? I, too, am surprised he didn't notice his mask at the start of the descent....maybe it was one of the issues he was having that compounded, forcing him into panic-mode....and it was the easiest one to blame rather than admitting that he freaked himself out.

Either way, stick to some relatively simple sites when you dive with him....and when you dive Vet's, drop early rather than late. The swim underwater is better than a surface swim....and at least that way you will know you're not dropping into 80 feet of water!

[Goindrinkn]

A lot of good information here. I'd agree with the suggestions to go on to Rescue diver when you are able to. It will help you gain some skills to assist when something like this happens, most of all recognize the issues before they turn into panic. I think there is a theme here that your buddie was a newer diver. That's a bit inexperienced, but not necessarily a bad diver. However he made less than the best decision. The important thing is that no one got hurt, and that you learned something valueable from the situation. Recently I was with my divebuddy (wife) at 110ft when she looked at me wide eyed and signaled UP - NOW! It was thanks to both of our training and plenty of diveing discussions that we were able to slow the situation down and take care of the issue. The great thing here is that you mitagated the risk and added a level of comfort by dropping in the second time in a shallower area.

We're all macho men (and ladies) and rarely does one want to say this dive is just a "little" beyond my comfort zone. Part of being a good dive buddy (and it comes with the training) is knowing where the persons limits are. There's a thin line between a dive that is a bit challenging and one that is pushing the limits.

Again; kudos for using the training you have had and some good old common sense to minimize the situation! And hopefully you and your buddy will both learn something for the event.

[bsee65]

When we finally got to the surface and asked what the hell that was all about. He said his mask did not seal and he could not see anything and his eyes were burning and since things did not feel right he wanted to get to the surface. I did not agree with that theory, and he obviously did not take the same class that I did. So we floated at the surface for a while and he calmed down and neither of us died.

We ended up swiming towards shore and dropping down again and hit bottom at about 25', which made him feel much better. We finished the dive and got out of the water without any further incidents. I tried to talk to him a little more about how BAD it was to try and shoot to the surface from 60' and all he could say is thing weren't going right and he was not comfortable and could not see.

This would be the key for me. He screwed up and reacted badly. While still in the water, he could have been too hyped to get the message. After the fact, he should be able to objectively look at the situation and admit he screwed up. If he still doesn't get it, then he will be potentially dangerous to continue diving with. If he still thinks he did the right thing, then the potential is there that he will do it again the next time something isn't quite right. If you guys share an instructor and LDS, maybe you could relay the details to that person and have the message delivered to him from another direction and a position of some authority.

[Spg01]

That's one of those things about doing a lot of shore diving....you get very used to dropping down into 20 feet of water, seeing the bottom, and being ready to orient yourself completely. To drop down into 80 feet of water, expecting to drop into 30 feet of water, in less than stellar vis, can play with one's mind a lot.

I think you did well. Your buddy, however, needs to understand that it's better to deal with issues underwater, rather than bolting to the surface. Is he on SB? Has he done a lot of reading/researching about diving? I, too, am surprised he didn't notice his mask at the start of the descent....maybe it was one of the issues he was having that compounded, forcing him into panic-mode....and it was the easiest one to blame rather than admitting that he freaked himself out.

Either way, stick to some relatively simple sites when you dive with him....and when you dive Vet's, drop early rather than late. The swim underwater is better than a surface swim....and at least that way you will know you're not dropping into 80 feet of water!

I do not believe he is on SB. I have shown him the site a few time, but have never really talked about how much time he has spent looking around.

I sure will stick to the easier shore dives with him. But I think I will have to talk with him before the next dive about what happened. We only talked about it once or twice that day very briefly. But then I don't want to beat him down with it either, I just want to make sure he realizes how bad things could have gone.

[Spg01]

This would be the key for me. He screwed up and reacted badly. While still in the water, he could have been too hyped to get the message. After the fact, he should be able to objectively look at the situation and admit he screwed up. If he still doesn't get it, then he will be potentially dangerous to continue diving with. If he still thinks he did the right thing, then the potential is there that he will do it again the next time something isn't quite right. If you guys share an instructor and LDS, maybe you could relay the details to that person and have the message delivered to him from another direction and a position of some authority.

While we did not share an instructor, he recently joined our dive club. Today at the shop I was asked about my weekend and I brought it up that I made a dive with him and that I probably would not take him back there anytime soon. I got asked a little about conditions, but not about anything that might have happened. But maybe when I get tanks for the weekend I can expand on it.

Like I have said, I don't want to beat this to death. But at the same time I still think it is an important issue if he is going to continue to dive, especially if it is with me.

[bsee65]

Yep, you're not his mommy or his instructor. You're not directly responsible for his safety, or the safety of others that may dive with him. That said, if he harms himself or a dive buddy doing something stupid in the future, you might feel badly that you didn't press the issue a bit. Moreso if you're the harmed buddy. :)

There was a scene in Top Gun that sort of applies. Once you're in the water and reacting to conditions and events, you may be put in a position where you have to push limits or do something risky because it seems better than the other available alternatives. Before you get in the water, though, you have time to consider the possibilities and plan for them to reduce risks and the likelihood of surprises. Getting back in the water with this guy in a questionable mindset seems like a risk no one needs to take.

Hopefully, when you expand on the events, someone at the dive shop with instructor training will have a strategy to get through to him for a positive result.

[fisheater]

You did great!

Your buddy, on the other hand, REALLY needs to learn that as long as he can breath, he needs to deal with issues underwater and control the urge to bolt to the surface. Only you can tell how that lesson would be best presented to him.

[Spg01]

Thanks to everyone who replied in this thread. It is nice to get feedback on issues that come up.

I do have another question though. And I hope that I do not get beat up for asking or even thinking of this.

A lot of people in this thread have said that when they descend they are always looking at their buddy and asking if they are ok every 5' or so until they hit the bottom or their depth. I have done similar when vis was about 4', but when vis is decent do you still do the same thing? I understand keeping an eye on your buddy, but I should not have to babysit them. Shouldn't you be competent enough to get to the bottom by yourself?

Reading that back to myself I know that It sounds like I am a bad buddy/person. I will admit that I am still learning and growing as a diver, so I might be wrong on my thinking.

But am I?

[bsee65]

Well, what happens if your buddy descends before you and has a problem, but then you can't equalize to get down and assist? Even though you see your buddy, if you're at significantly different depths, there's a greater chance that you won't be able to help than if you just happen to be separated but within sight range while both at the same level. Sounds like descending and ascending together really is the safest thing for a buddy pair.

[Spg01]

As the saying goes, I don't know what I don't know. But what is this mysterious problem? I guess I need to find out what else can go wrong on a descent. Let me say that I am not trying to be a smart a$$, I am just trying to gather more information before it actually happens. I am also aware of that guy named Murphy and his laws. So I know that I am playing both sides of the fence here.

I will say that I am very comfotable in the water, so that might be part of my problem. That and this has been my only real problem so far in my short diving experiance. But I do not want to get to comfortable and become dangerous.

So thanks again for the responses, am sure they will help me learn one way or another.

[gcbryan]

You don't have to babysit but if you go to the bottom and it's quite a way down and your buddy has problems equalizing and has to go to the surface or pause for a minute you will get separated. If there is a current and he simply has to pause for a while before getting deeper he will drift and when he does get down it won't be where you are. He may forget to attach a drysuit hose and have to pause.

There's nothing more irritating than bombing down to the bottom, having your buddy never arrive and now having to go all the way back up to the surface.

[Spg01]

You don't have to babysit but if you go to the bottom and it's quite a way down and your buddy has problems equalizing and has to go to the surface or pause for a minute you will get separated. If there is a current and he simply has to pause for a while before getting deeper he will drift and when he does get down it won't be where you are. He may forget to attach a drysuit hose and have to pause.

There's nothing more irritating than bombing down to the bottom, having your buddy never arrive and now having to go all the way back up to the surface.

Good point, we all forget things sooner or later. And returning to the surface to collect your buddy would suck.

[Rainer]

I don't babysit those I dive with. That said, descents (just like the rest of the dive) are done as a team. That means we descend together, in control of our (negative) buoyancy, eyes on each other. Way easier to catch any issues like this (some of which gcbryan hinted upon), and had you done so on your dive in question, you probably would not have had the outcome you did. Descents should be an organized team activity, slow and deliberate. In this respect, you both failed.

[bowlofpetunias]

As the saying goes, I don't know what I don't know. But what is this mysterious problem? I guess I need to find out what else can go wrong on a descent. Let me say that I am not trying to be a smart a$$, I am just trying to gather more information before it actually happens. I am also aware of that guy named Murphy and his laws. So I know that I am playing both sides of the fence here.

I will say that I am very comfotable in the water, so that might be part of my problem. That and this has been my only real problem so far in my short diving experiance. But I do not want to get to comfortable and become dangerous.

So thanks again for the responses, am sure they will help me learn one way or another.

:clapping:Your statement that I have bolded is dead accurate. The multitude of Scuba "Incidents" involve either new/inexperienced divers or experienced/complacent divers... keep thinking like that an you are not likely to become a victim!

I must confess my buddy and I don't signal each other asking ok regularly on descent or ascent but we do keep close and keep an eye on each other. The worse/ more challenging the conditions the closer we stay together. Only if the other looks like they are having a problem do we signal.

Normally if one of us has anything going that may be an issue we discuss it before entry. "My ear is a little sore.. I will need to descend slower... I am experimenting on my weight.. dropped or added to it. I am using some new gear etc or whatever so we have a pretty good idea what is going to happen before we start.

A) On descent you can have unexpected equilization/sinus problems that may change your descent rate.. or you may need to go back up a bit to equalize.... your buddy needs to be aware of that quickly so current or Viz problems don't take you out of range of each other

B) On descent mask problems may occur and not everyone carries a spare.. Waves or other divers can knock a mask off.

C) On descent BCD or weight issues may result in buddy not being able to descent or descending too quickly ... some will say you should be able to manage that by yourself.. but you may need your buddy to assist

D) On descent/ascent equipment may fail or as in another thread here you may find a guage was stuck and there is an OOA emergency.

E) On descent you may encounter cross currents that push you in a different direction than you expect or harder than you expect causeing separation

F) Depending on conditions you may also be pushed against rocks or debrie that you didn't know was there and be injured

G) Nausea/ vomiting and vertigo can occurr with little warning. As someone who experiences seasickness.. I have learned to feed the fish through my reg but some people are quite alarmed by this.

In my diving career I have either experienced or been with someone who experienced all of those invonveniences (except OOA). Non of the events resulted in an "incident" because they were recognized and dealt with quickly.

[openmindOW]

descents (just like the rest of the dive) are done as a team. That means we descend together, in control of our (negative) buoyancy, eyes on each other.

I descend as a team. Sometimes that means that divers with "good ears" have to slow their descent rate to match that of abuddy who is taking time to equalize.

I am lucky in that I have "fast ears." Some people I dive with need more time to equalize than I do. I'm happy to wait.