Rebreathers and fatalities.

[diverjed]

Death and re-breathers.

Lot of that going around.

[Waterlover]

Care to tell us what your talking about?

[padiscubapro]

diverjed once bubbled...
Death and re-breathers.

Lot of that going around.

I hate when people just try and troll up nonsense for threads..

I know of 2 rebreather deaths this year any many more open circuit deaths..

1 of the "rebreather" deaths no one knows what the story is since there is no body, the other death the diver was tangled in his reef hook and ran out of gas...

[Waterlover]

There was a death on an Azimuth at Willow Springs Park in Pa a few weeks ago....

[padiscubapro]

Waterlover once bubbled...
There was a death on an Azimuth at Willow Springs Park in Pa a few weeks ago....

forgot about that one.. no real details have been posted..

The diver was supposed to be modifying his azimuth for CCR use, not sure if it was done or not.. I would like to know..

[fins wake]

... that any and all rebreathers can be dangerous under certain circumstances (eg. such as but not limited to lack of or bad training, complacency, exceeding qualification limits etc). The Azimuth is still a new unit, and there almost was a fatality in Scandinavia already last year. That particular incident was completely due to human error and gross negligence ... :upset:

And just over a month ago, two conscripted Norwegian Navy mine clearance divers passed out on their SIVA 55's whilst on an exercise in Northern Norway. One of the divers was listed as being in a critical condition for several days after the accident, but has apparently fully recovered. Rapid military medical intervention saved the day. That accident is still the subject of a government enquiry, but the SIVA is reputedly an excellent unit and this was apparently a dual unit-accident so it is more likely human error again ...

Of course, we never hear about all the myriad RB dives which run their course without incident, sometimes to great depth.

For example, rebreathers were used by deep safety divers at depths down to 93 metres at the Sony Freediver Open Classic this weekend. No accidents whatsoever. None reported either from the Inspiration Weekend occurring at Plymouth, England at the same time. Just to take the two most recent examples.

Rebreathers are serious tools for serious diving. Not death traps. :box:

I think it's getting time for rebreather manufacturers to dust off and paraphrase the old IANTD Nitrox slogan: If you understood rebreathers, you'd be diving them, too . :tease:

[ALAN243]

The azimuth death was on a unmodified azimuth, he was scheduled to meet with dave sutton the next week to change it over to a kiss unit, the unit is being investigated by the navy in florida to see if there was a fault in it. He had over 500 dives on this unit.

[padiscubapro]

ALAN243 once bubbled...
The azimuth death was on a unmodified azimuth, he was scheduled to meet with dave sutton the next week to change it over to a kiss unit, the unit is being investigated by the navy in florida to see if there was a fault in it. He had over 500 dives on this unit.

Thanks for the info.. I was wondering if the unit was stock...

Did he have any PO2 monitoring or was he flying it blind??

[compressor]

I was at the LDS today and was told that a fair number of deaths have occured using RBs and occured in a pool during teaching the RB course. Any truth to this my friends?

[madmole]

None whatsoever!

More missinformation :upset:

Care to name names, so we can educate

[saturated]

wow, where do these people hear this stuff?

[BigJetDriver]

fins wake once bubbled...

Of course, we never hear about all the myriad RB dives which run their course without incident, sometimes to great depth.

For example, rebreathers were used by deep safety divers at depths down to 93 metres at the Sony Freediver Open Classic this weekend. No accidents whatsoever. None reported either from the Inspiration Weekend occurring at Plymouth, England at the same time. Just to take the two most recent examples.

Rebreathers are serious tools for serious diving. Not death traps. :box:

I think it's getting time for rebreather manufacturers to dust off and paraphrase the old IANTD Nitrox slogan: If you understood rebreathers, you'd be diving them, too . :tease: [SIZE=3][FONT=times new roman][COLOR=darkblue]

Absolutely well said, fins!

It is getting so that there are so many scary urban myths about rebreathers that I'm beginning to think they are all inhabited by the spirit of "Jason"!!! Amazing what people will believe without checking it out!:eek:

[jepuskar]

I didnt realize I had an urban myth about me...I dont even have one minute logged on a rebreather.

As a troll, in hibernation for the moment, I cant believe you people are biting this post. This person probably spent a total of 30 seconds in this forum when he made that post, doesnt know a damn thing about rebreathers and just had an impulse to stir up trouble. Trust me on this..I know from experience.

On a side note, that guy Dave Sutton, he is either a genious or an accident waiting to happen. Some crazy stuff on his website...maybe it is just my own ignorance, but that guy gives me the creeps.

I'll take my hat off to him though...he seems really intelligent and knows his way around a rebreather, and he also seems to be loaded in $$$..not that that means anything, but all it takes is one f up. He is still alive isnt he?

:confused:

[caveseeker7]

PITA, aren't they . :upset:

[jepuskar]

Trolls suck.

:(

[BigJetDriver]

Sorry, Jason! I meant the other "Jason" in the movies with the white hockey mask!;)

[jepuskar]

I know...but I had to say it anyway. :)

[caveseeker7]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...
Sorry, Jason! I meant the other "Jason" in the movies with the white hockey mask!;)

What hockey mask? You mean to say Jepuskar didn't get an odd looking FFM ??? There is another one out there ??? :wacko:

[fins wake]

On a side note, that guy Dave Sutton, he is either a genious or an accident waiting to happen. Some crazy stuff on his website...maybe it is just my own ignorance, but that guy gives me the creeps.

I don't know Dave personally, but judging from his excellent site and from his judicious remarks on various lists, I'd say he's definitely not an accident waiting to happen. I know a few similar guys this side of the pond, and their knowledge of rebreathers is mainly unparallelled.

Homebuilders have this "dodgy" rep on certain non-RB lists, as if they're a cross between Walter Mitty, Heath Robinson and McGyver, but in reality they know rebreather designs and philosophy so well they can build them themselves. They're usually safer than other rebreather users. I learn a lot from them. (I couldn't build my own from scratch, I have to admit. :help: )

Usually it's the non-RB list "fun-pokers" themselves - whom I guess you're quoting? - who don't have a clue. :dunce:

That said, I don't personally subscribe to Dave's Inspiration sensor theory and modification, but hey, he's free to post it and that apart his site makes a lot of sense. :)


not that that means anything, but all it takes is one f up. He is still alive isnt he?
Yup, all it takes may be one mistake, but Dave is less likely than many to make them. And yes, he was still alive as by this morning ... ;)

[Mverick]

jepuskar once bubbled...

On a side note, that guy Dave Sutton, he is either a genious or an accident waiting to happen. Some crazy stuff on his website...maybe it is just my own ignorance, but that guy gives me the creeps.

I'll take my hat off to him though...he seems really intelligent and knows his way around a rebreather, and he also seems to be loaded in $$$..not that that means anything, but all it takes is one f up. He is still alive isnt he?



He emailed me yesterday so. Yep, still alive...

He doesn't believe in risking anything on RB's he builds. He is absolutely anal about safety. But then again, he's alive. He has been diving since he was little. Own's Many different old Military RB's. And dives them.

That's why you see PPO2 monitors on his RB's. And usually a VR3. He believes in the time tested designs. If you notice. All his conversions go back to the KISS method. You watch your butt yourself. You don't rely on electronics. You have to have a manual bailout.

And yea, You don't have your own 101 starfighter and be hurting for scratch....

[KentCe]

diverjed once bubbled...
Death and re-breathers.

Lot of that going around.

That was in the old days when rebreathers were packed in broken glass. Divers would not read the instructions and would leave glass fragments in the breathing hose. Clearly not the fault of the RB if the diver wasn't training to unpack/inspect the unit correctly.

Now that the manufactures have switch to packing in rusty nails there have been fewer deaths, but still problems for students not wearing proper eye protection.

There was a short period that the RB electronics were packed in C4 explosives to keep the water out, but most would agree it was a bad idea and the fault of the RB. But that is old history now. The new nitro filler is very safe, just don't bump the RB around too much.

[fins wake]

There was a short period that the RB electronics were packed in C4 explosives to keep the water out Problem with C4 is it's so darn hard to get hold of. The Army and CIA seem to have cornered the market (well, they developed it in the first place, so why not?). Guess most RB manufacturers will have to do with Semtex or other inferior products ... :D

(Hey, I'm glad humour's not dead on the forum. Liked your post, KentCe ... ;) )

K.

[no bubbles]

Definition of a Test Pilot: A risk adverse skeptic who knows that if something hasn't already gone wrong, it soon will.
Definition of a safe rebreather diver: A risk adverse skeptic who knows that if something hasn't already gone wrong, it soon will.

What's the main similarity between a fighter aircraft and a rebreather? It's that both are *guaranteed* to kill you in a split moment if you allow them to do so. Only YOUR skill prevents the mishap. Both are fabulous vehicles that can take you where nothing else will. Are you willing to do what it takes to go there safely? It's a Darwinian world out there fellas, screw up and you'll die. That's what makes it interesting. I've got photos of about 20 of my friends who have been killed in fighters on my wall. It makes me think. I've got photos of about another 20 of my friends who have been killed diving (about half on rebreathers and the other bunch commericial diving) and it makes me think too.

Now, anyone want to take a guess as to who's lurking here?

That's an F-104 I fly, BTW, the F-101 was about 4 times the size of the little Starfighter, better known as the "Zipper". And boy, does she Zip. I'm glad you think I'm made of money. Just don't tell my wife. Working 27 hours a day, 8 hours a week, at 3 jobs helps. I'll sleep when I'm dead, which hopefully will be a long time from now. Creepy? Hmmm..... Maybe it's because any sufficiently developed technology is indistinguishable from magic. Learn how the systems work and they aren't a mystery. It's just a machine. If you don't uderstand them, they are creepy, that's for sure.

I agree about the Inspiration Sensor-Blaster theory being off-kilter, although owners love them for the ability to verify sensor accuracy via quick diluent puff. Personlly, I wouldn't let my Dog dive an Inspiration, since I happen to like my dog. I built the system on request, not for my own use or on my own initiative. Basically, I was begged to build it. I like it for sensor calibrtion well enough that I'm adding it to my Mark-15.

Semtex? That's good Czech stuff, orange if I remember right. DuPont Detasheet is preferred underwater though. C-4 is best extracted from Claymores, and a pinch set on fire with a Zippo does a great job of heating up a canteen cup of water. Where else can you learn this stuff but here? Trust me, don't eat the ham and beans in the field rations.

Back to lurking mode now. "When you throw mud, you lose ground". which is why I don't spend much time on the Internet anymore. Too much mud tossing for my taste. Anyone who has anything real to say is beset by trolls. The real players don't need to post, and they aren't likely to put up with the BS that comes from posting. I'll hang out here for a little bit, and if the civility level remains high I'll stay longer.

Taking a break from finishing up the bailout rebreather. Final test dives Weds, although we generally don't like the word "Final" in the rebreather building world. The bailout system is self contained, has internal diluent add with auto-add for keeping it equalized on descent, can be handed off to another diver underwater, has an adjustable exhaust valve to vent the loop on ascent if it's not been used, and has the ability to connect underwater to *any* BC inflator hose or drysuit inflator hose for additional diluent access from any available source. It has it's own 4+ hour 02 supply, dual digital and backlighted PP02 monitoring, and weighs (get this) 15 pounds complete. I've been diving it all summer, and the last set of tests are of the auto diluent add system.


DS, live from the Little Diveshop of Horrors. Yup, really.

[saturated]

Taking a break from finishing up the bailout rebreather. Final test dives Weds, although we generally don't like the word "Final" in the rebreather building world. The bailout system is self contained, has internal diluent add with auto-add for keeping it equalized on descent, can be handed off to another diver underwater, has an adjustable exhaust valve to vent the loop on ascent if it's not been used, and has the ability to connect underwater to *any* BC inflator hose or drysuit inflator hose for additional diluent access from any available source. It has it's own 4+ hour 02 supply, dual digital and backlighted PP02 monitoring, and weighs (get this) 15 pounds complete. I've been diving it all summer, and the last set of tests are of the auto diluent add system.

Very interesting, Do you have pics....15lbs! Wow! Sounds like a great idea....

sorry just found your site, looks great. Hard to believe you were able to condense it to that size. Awesome work...

[no bubbles]

Bailout Rebreathers, Yes, that Holy Grail of Unobtanium.....

It's not on my website (which I don't update any longer. Seems that I was taking flak for "bragging" when I ought to be "diving". I got sick of taking **** for putting projects up for people to study, since it seems that articulating the successes achieved here bugged some people to distraction and their response was to criticize everything I wrote about. Finally, some Pea-Brained (or make that Phi-Brained, if you follow these things) whacko publicized on the Rebreather List that I'd "ripped him off" because I didn't send him a part *for free* that I promised to send him "when I got the time to make it". That was the absolute last straw and ruined it for everyone. Now I basically make these projects for myself and a very select group of friends and we keep it to ourselves.... no loss to us!). But in this case, the bailout rig has a lot of appeal and interest to a lot of guys, as there isn't anything else comparable anyplace else in the world, so I relented a bit from my current "fed up with the internet" mode and allowed a little website to be stuck up by a friend of mine. It can be found here:

http://www.therebreathersite.nl/world_smallest_ccr_by_dave.htm


That isn't the final version, but is close. There is now a Draeger Dolphin exhaust valve on the top of the counterlung, and a modified BC inflator valve body in the breathing hose, about 3 inches up from the scrubber, between the scrubber and the mouthpiece. That allows diluent to be injected into the loop by any BC inflator valve. I did away with the offboard fitting as is shown on the website. Basically, I let the small cylinder that's built into the rig keep the counterlung equalized on descent. It's all automatic. If I need to bail out, the first step is to open the open/closed circuit DSV on my main rig, and to get established open circuit for few moments. Then, I take a good breath from the open circuit supply, spit out the old DSV, grab the new one and exhale into the second loop. That's all folks, from then on it's a continuous ascent including deco. In the unlikly case that I needed to add additional diluent to the loop, the little bottle provides enough as long as I'm not piggish about it. If I am feeling piggish, there's always the BC inflator valve in the breathing hose and once an inflator hose is connected to it I have all the diluent I need. The nice thing about the system is that it has neutral bouyancy when half full of gas, and so even with some gas in the bag I can unclip it and hand it to my buddy if he needs is. I've been testing it by wearing a small cylinder on my back, feeding a drysuit and open circuit regulator, and using *only* the tiny bailout rig for the actual dive. It's worked great. A similar rig is being used by a friend who's doing underwater video in a submarine at 190 feet, and that same rig will be going to the Med in September to be used on a special project in 450 feet of water. The major difference between that rig and the bailout ig is that for the bilout system I chose a pendulum scrubbr heats up quicker if cold soaked, IE: sitting dormant on your chest in cold water), while the "intentional" rig uses a more usual cycle-loop system. I dove the little rig on my website all last season with 100% success, to 200-ish feet pretty regularly, and it works a champ. But the bilout rig as discussed here is a new project, and seems to really be the cats' meow for deep diving, as it allows a diver to carry a second loop for bailout with ease. Next is integrated tests with the Mark-15, however that's on hold pending return of that rig from electronics modification.


DS, From the Little Diveshop of Horrors

[rbdave]

Hi Dave,

Have you seen Rod Nairnes ( Silent immersion ) bailout breather?

It's tiny and lightweight.

Cheers

Dave

[no bubbles]

I have not, although I understand what he did. Rod is a local here, and is someone who I have great respect for as an engineer and manufacturer. My understanding is, though, that these two rigs have completely different potential uses. Rod's is a dedicated bailiut system, while mne can be used by itself as a "main" rebreather for shallow water (IE: To perhaps 150 feet) and is designed as a modular system with "plug in" components that may be selected for a particular mission. Both designs have merit. The difference is that you can probably buy one from Rod, but you'll need to copy mine if you want one, as I've given up making parts for other people. With that said, with the design laid out in front of you on the website, if you're not smart enough to copy it, you're not smart enough to use it... ;-)

DS

[rbdave]

Hi Dave,

Rod's bailout breather can certainly be dived as a stand alone. I had a dive on it about 4-5 years ago. Perhaps he has changed things since then. He used to be a local over here before moving to the states. He helped with some parts on my first homebuilt.

You said that you nolonger update your web page because of the knockers. That's a shame as I'm sure the silent majority would find it of benifit.

Cheers

Dave

[madmole]

Yes, its amazing how many rebreather "experts" out there do so little diving that they manage to spend most of their day writing abusive drivle to folks who publish pro rebreather websites

I get 3 or 4 a week. Dont know why they bother, after the first one from them I just add them to the "Abuse, bin immediatly without opening" rule, so their wasting their time, not mine

Funny thing is they all seem to spout the same misinformed rubbish from the same misinformed source

Mind you the rebreather hate mail pales into insignificance over the abuse from Volvo and Vauxhall (Opel/GM) drivers I get for my old Ford Mondeo (Contour) web site www.madmole.co.uk :D

I have thick skin and will continue to publish facts and my opinions and to provide a space for folks who differ or have other ideas to state those as well.

[caveseeker7]

madmole once bubbled...
writing abusive drivle to folks who publish pro rebreather websites

Pretty sad how intolerant and incosiderate some people are. Especially when it ends in websites being closed (or not updated). :upset: Even more so if they offer as much as yours or Dave's. I agree with rbdave, that's a shame.


madmole once bubbled...
Funny thing is they all seem to spout the same misinformed rubbish from the same misinformed source

You know the source?


madmole once bubbled...
Mind you the rebreather hate mail pales into insignificance over the abuse from Volvo and Vauxhall (Opel/GM) drivers I get for my old Ford Mondeo
Of course you gonna get some flak for that. :D As long as you don't put a spoiler on your Inspiration though ... ;)
Some ideas: OxyCheq hose covers in the engine room, Force Fin mud flaps, counterlung turned Cameback on the harness and nitrousoxide tank with quick connect. That would put 'mad' into madmolemobile. :D

[madmole]

The source is the same source thats always spouted missinformation and lies about most rebreathers and I'm pretty certain you know who I mean

Spoiler may not look cool but it does a great job of keeping the back of the car planted firmly!!

Mondeo Molemobile is in garage as we speak having top end overhaul and is then going on sale. I shall be sad to see her go, and will miss seeing the look on so called fast cars as a repmobile storms past. But she just isn't big enough for Turtle and stages and dive kit. Plus she is so low she cant tow the rib. As a track car she is great but as a working car she is not so suitable

I have a new DiverMoleMobile now. A nice big Land-Rover Discovery. Can take all the kit and abuse I can throw at her. Its all Dave Thompsons fault, first he invents the Inspiration and makes me buy one and then convinces me to spend the money I dont have left on a Disco. Then Bob Howell comes along and takes whatever pennies I have remaining:(

[no bubbles]

The last time I spoke to Rodney, he told me that he wasn't working on rebreathers and was concentrating on his scooter (which is a great unit). So, it's my "guess" that his bailout rig has been shelved. We did discuss the design of a passive addition rebreather, as he was interested in designing one but was leery about the Halcyon patent. Turns out that the mechanics of that system were first used in 1955 by the French DC-55 rebreather, so it's a public domain design at it's core. I just happen to have three of those things sitting here, so if Rod wants proof of the old design, he's got access to one for evidence. But I really think he's up to his ears in scooter parts and could give a hoot about rebreathers at this time.

Back to the other point, I had a guy on the rebreather list most publicly state that I had ripped him off. The facts are that I had sent him a few goodies now and then as a courtesy and that I had promised to send him a few more "when I could". Like as in "free, but you need to wait until I get around to it". In return for that I got called a thief on a public internet list and that was the last straw. I gave him a public opportunity to apologize, which he refused. So, I split and haven't done much else in the form of internet publication. I will not be involved with controversy, and as a subscriber to the Code of Conduct, which reads in part "I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do" I've got a real problem with people who dishonor my carefully gained and guarded reputation. I just won't hang around a place where that happens.

'Nuff said about that sad subject. I'm off to test the final integration of the bailout rig today. By tonight I'll probably have some in-use photos available.


DS, Live from the Diveshop of Horrors

[canuckdiver]

Dave, I would like to add my voice to those that lament the loss of new information from your site. There are a few sites that I have stumbled across in my search for homebuilder information, but none even approached yours in quality and content. (BTW, that's basically what my PM to you said, in case you thought it was a personal bash)

the "gentleman" on the rebreather list is only hurting his own reputation, not yours. Those of us that have heard from both of you know who the honourable one there is. ;)

Let us know how the bail-out unit works, I love the idea, and am integrating some of the ideas into the project that I am working on. If you get a minute, please contact me directly, I would like to ask you a couple of questions if you could spare a couple of minutes for me.

thnx
adam

[kavka]

That's the best site for diy RB I could find on the net Dave. I hope you'll keep working on it.
Gorazd