seahunter
June 2nd, 2003, 11:26 AM
How come Scuba 2000 is the only store in Ontario to offer free air fills?
|
|
View Full Version : Free Air Fills!
seahunter June 2nd, 2003, 11:26 AM How come Scuba 2000 is the only store in Ontario to offer free air fills? DivingGal June 2nd, 2003, 11:29 AM Let's not be silly about this. You're not. Many shops offer free air. Particularly if you've purchased the tank at the shop. But they also offer free air for other reasons too. UpperCanDiver June 2nd, 2003, 11:31 AM Because you are one of the many shops pumping uncertified air! You cannot charge for air that is not to Canadian standards. Thats like selling Canadian Beef that hasn't been inspected yet. Boogie711 June 2nd, 2003, 11:35 AM Because you are one of the many shops pumping uncertified air! You cannot charge for air that is not to Canadian standards. Coke alert.... Coke alert... Coke alert... ------------------------ On a more serious note - this is just ridiculous. Is there anyway Seahunter can be given a "time out" or something? seahunter June 2nd, 2003, 11:35 AM Having made a point even if somewhat silly, I'm happy to have DG delete this topic. It serves no useful purpose and may lead to more libellous statements like UpperCanada's pufferfish June 2nd, 2003, 11:56 AM UpperCanDiver once bubbled... Because you are one of the many shops pumping uncertified air! You cannot charge for air that is not to Canadian standards. Thats like selling Canadian Beef that hasn't been inspected yet. I had never thought of it in those terms. Does offering air for 'free' absolve a shop owner with employees from the requirement by the Ontario Ministry of Labour to have the air meet CSA Z180.1 requirements twice a year? In other words by giving it away no quality assurances have to be met. This is analgous to a situation I once found myself in where by offering a guy a place to live for no rent in exchange for looking after the place, I found out when I ran into problems the Ontario Landlord and Tenant act did not apply as I did not charge rent. Won't make that mistake again as there were no laws to protect me from this 'tenant' from hell. Could divers recieving 'free' air have no recourse under the law if they did get a bad fill from a shop offering free air? seahunter June 2nd, 2003, 12:09 PM Technically you may be right puff but I'd hate to be the defendent in any court on such an action as you found out yourself. It could be very sticky. I suggest that any business (as opposed to an individual) that offers for sale or free any product or service that proves defective (air?) and subsequently causes harm is in deep water - too deep even for trimix! As you know from our previous discussions, we don't offer free air for any reason other than to attract customers. Not much point in attracting them and then giving them 'bad' air. Free air as DG as pointed out, is not a new concept. As far back as Sally Singer at Supreme Divers (1975?), divers got Free Air for Life with a scuba tank purchase. It's only the free air without restrictions that's different here. I was about to delete this entire topic but, if we don't get dangerous in our comments (obviously silly is OK!), let's see where it goes. Some unnamed store in Richmond Hill (and others I'm sure) also gives free rentals, free loaners (that's gear to use when yours is in for service), free tryouts (that's new gear that you want to try with the real expectation that you'll buy if you're happy) and so on. I hope there's no reason why those practices ought not continue. The divers sure seem to like them. Groundhog246 June 2nd, 2003, 05:55 PM Seahunter. Can I get clarification on the free air? If I show up with a couple of cylinders I don't pay for air? Or do I have to join a "club"? Since I live a fair drive away, I certainly won't be driving there for "free air", but nice to know in case I might be diving closer to your neighbourhood. Of course as a Groundhog (duly "hogged") I get free air at my LDS and associated stores anyway. Dundas June 2nd, 2003, 07:28 PM It's interesting to see on the scuba board a number of occasions where people reference the Ministry of Labour. (note the labour portion). Unless you work for the dive shop (and are compensated by cash or cheque), there is ABSOLUTELY no recourse with the Ministry of Labour. That is, the Ministry can't charge the owner of the shop, well I guess they could, but it'd be thrown out of court. The Occupational health and Safety act and the regualtions only apply to workplaces and they are designed to protect employees only, not the general public. Having said that, there may be other government agencies whose regulations would apply. As well, the CSA code for breathing air, is a very good code to follow from a due diligence perspective, as well as industry standards set by PADI and other diving associations. Jeff seahunter June 2nd, 2003, 07:55 PM Certified divers do not pay for air fills at our unnamed store. It seemed like a good promotional ploy at first (almost 2 years ago) and there's no doubt a good many divers have come in because of it. It's never ceased to amaze me that Mississauga divers will drive 100 miles round trip to save $5. However, it's not been the savior of my business for sure and I've no intentions of dropping my radio or printed ads. Also, a phenomena that I've witnessed many times before has been evident here again. While many of the new divers have become good customers, a lot of the divers who want to save $5 will not spend any extra money here so it's a complete loss on them. It's like the $99 course. Some stores offer a cheap course in hopes of selling a lot of gear but someone who won't take a scuba course unless it's cheap also will not buy any gear. I'd rather have 10 new divers paying $500 for a course than 50 paying $100. FYI we had to limit the free air fills to 2 per day. Some divers showed up with as many as 12 tanks. I don't know if they were heavy breathers or worked for other stores. seahunter June 2nd, 2003, 07:59 PM Did someone just open a window?? Thanks dundas. It's great to hear a voice of reason - not compromise, just reason! This is exactly one of the points that has come up time and again in this thread and a couple of others about air fills and air certificates. Maybe a new voice will be listened to. Groundhog246 June 2nd, 2003, 08:06 PM Dundas once bubbled... Unless you work for the dive shop (and are compensated by cash or cheque), there is ABSOLUTELY no recourse with the Ministry of Labour. That is, the Ministry can't charge the owner of the shop, well I guess they could, but it'd be thrown out of court. The Occupational health and Safety act and the regualtions only apply to workplaces and they are designed to protect employees only, not the general public. What you say is true. The idea is most stores have employees (Intructors, assistants, etc) and only one compressor system. Therefore the air must meet the Ministry of Labour standards for their employees. And if it meets the requirements for their employees, it's good air for all divers they provide it to. SneakyB'tard June 2nd, 2003, 09:21 PM The one problem is that Seahunter claims to supply air to Fire Departments. Now It is a OHSA and Ministry of Labour issue. detroit diver June 3rd, 2003, 12:24 AM seahunter once bubbled... How come Scuba 2000 is the only store in Ontario to offer free air fills? How come blatant commercial advertising is allowed on this board?:confused: taz22 June 3rd, 2003, 06:17 AM detroit diver once bubbled... How come blatant commercial advertising is allowed on this board?:confused: I would have to agree.... Diving Gal....any chance you can delete this thread as per seahunters request since it really does not serve any practical purpose? seahunter June 3rd, 2003, 08:30 AM DD and taz (hi taz - where've you been?) - please realize this topic was started as a joke and to illustrate a point. You'd need to read this whole thread AND the topic about Nitrox fills to really grasp it. I did suggest that this thread, having served its purpose after 3 posts, should be deleted and was going to do so myself but now it's kinda' fun and there are some interesting thoughts coming out of it. The original post can still be deleted as far as I'm concerned but I can't do that without deleting the whole thread. While I'm not dumb enough to pass on an invitation to rave about my favorite store, also realize the great exposure you seem to think I get on this board is of no value to me. There are at best a couple dozen active readers of these topics and they invariably have a favorite LDS. They also undoubtedly know mine already. Please don't think I use this board to supplement my extensive public ad campaign. Which raises another interesting dive store topic for here or a new thread. Why don't you ever see or hear ads for dive stores? detroit diver June 3rd, 2003, 08:38 AM seahunter once bubbled... DD and taz (hi taz - where've you been?) - please realize this topic was started as a joke and to illustrate a point. You'd need to read this whole thread AND the topic about Nitrox fills to really grasp it. I did suggest that this thread, having served its purpose after 3 posts, should be deleted and was going to do so myself but now it's kinda' fun and there are some interesting thoughts coming out of it. The original post can still be deleted as far as I'm concerned but I can't do that without deleting the whole thread. While I'm not dumb enough to pass on an invitation to rave about my favorite store, also realize the great exposure you seem to think I get on this board is of no value to me. There are at best a couple dozen active readers of these topics and they invariably have a favorite LDS. They also undoubtedly know mine already. Please don't think I use this board to supplement my extensive public ad campaign. Which raises another interesting dive store topic for here or a new thread. Why don't you ever see or hear ads for dive stores? Because they're not allowed. seahunter June 3rd, 2003, 08:44 AM To answer your query sneaky, which is a good one, I just fill them. I don't question who will be using them. Now before y'all jump on me, that doesn't mean I'm giving compressed air fills to children!! However, it is the employers responsibility to supply proper breathing air to his employees - not the air station operator. I'd better explain this one - I'm starting to tread water already!! I must be sure I supply air to standards to my employees. The fire dept must be sure it supplies air to standards to it's employees. If the fire dept (or the City of Toronto, or Town of Markham, or any one of a dozen other businesses or public institutions we work with) brings tanks to me for fills, we fill them. While I know our air meets standards, it's their responsibility to check that and provide proof if necessary to the MOL. The regulations require THE EMPLOYER to supply air to standards. He can get it wherever he likes so long as it meets standards. Interestingly (is puff watching this?), no one from the aforementioned groups has ever asked for a copy of my certificate. I assume they've seen it on the wall but, if it were me on the line, I'd want a copy in my files. Technically you see, while I must supply air to standards to my employees, there's no obligation (other than moral, good business and the threat of liability) for me to supply the same good air to my customers - whether divers or the fire dept. seahunter June 3rd, 2003, 08:49 AM Sorry DD. I wasn't clear. I meant 'Why don't you ever see ads for dive stores in the usual public forums radio, TV, newpapers, etc?' Bubble Boy June 3rd, 2003, 10:01 AM seahunter once bubbled... However, it is the employers responsibility to supply proper breathing air to his employees - not the air station operator. I must be sure I supply air to standards to my employees. The fire dept must be sure it supplies air to standards to it's employees. If the fire dept (or the City of Toronto, or Town of Markham, or any one of a dozen other businesses or public institutions we work with) brings tanks to me for fills, we fill them. While I know our air meets standards, it's their responsibility to check that and provide proof if necessary to the MOL. The regulations require THE EMPLOYER to supply air to standards. He can get it wherever he likes so long as it meets standards. Interestingly (is puff watching this?), no one from the aforementioned groups has ever asked for a copy of my certificate. I assume they've seen it on the wall but, if it were me on the line, I'd want a copy in my files. Technically you see, while I must supply air to standards to my employees, there's no obligation (other than moral, good business and the threat of liability) for me to supply the same good air to my customers - whether divers or the fire dept. Finally we agree on something! Seahunter is correct it is the employers responsibility. I wish I had patented the term Dundas likes using "due delligence" but Seahunter is also correct in that the employers getting air for their employees from him would be using due delligence by asking for copies of the certs. weight_for_me June 3rd, 2003, 01:19 PM seahunter once bubbled... Sorry DD. I wasn't clear. I meant 'Why don't you ever see ads for dive stores in the usual public forums radio, TV, newpapers, etc?' Well, if anyone ever watches the Ottawa CTV station, you will see ads for a dive shop from Ottawa (DG will attest to this) .. they are actually quite good... Randy... GTADiver June 3rd, 2003, 01:25 PM weight_for_me once bubbled... Well, if anyone ever watches the Ottawa CTV station, you will see ads for a dive shop from Ottawa (DG will attest to this) .. they are actually quite good... Randy... Randy, I heard that shop is having a big LIQUIDATION sale right now. eagleray2003 June 3rd, 2003, 02:18 PM GTA is that in closing liquidation sale? Seahunter several shops in Ottawa have advertised on radio, tv, and newspapers and Iam sure others across this country do as well. If the answer to question above is yes, is that not one of the bigger shops in Ottawa? cobaltbabe June 3rd, 2003, 02:44 PM Is it not required by any fill station, to have the client provide a valid c-card before a fill is permitted. This was the impression that I was given. And if this is indeed true, how can just anyone walk in off the street and have their tanks filled whether it is free or not? :confused: Bubble Boy June 3rd, 2003, 04:15 PM cobaltbabe once bubbled... Is it not required by any fill station, to have the client provide a valid c-card before a fill is permitted. This was the impression that I was given. And if this is indeed true, how can just anyone walk in off the street and have their tanks filled whether it is free or not? :confused: Yes, in an ideal world that would occur. I dont think I have ever been asked for a c-card. In fact a lot of paint ball participants use scuba cylinders as cascade bottles. DivingGal June 3rd, 2003, 04:24 PM Delete the thread? -- No, I believe we are getting some useful information and discussion here. However, if the thread gets out of hand the thread may be closed (after a discussion with other mods) In your face advertising -- yes there is, and members and not just who you may think have be cautioned at the amount of self promoting of their shops, web sites, services etc. that happens when a member posts a response in a thread. So, please "play" nice, and allow us all to learn from those who have something to share. - - - Randy (et al) There are at least two of the local Dive Stores here in Ottawa which advertise on various TV channels that I am personnelly aware of, and three that I have seen advertisements in the newspaper. None of the stores are particularly "large". One I would consider to be bigger than some stores here. June cobaltbabe June 3rd, 2003, 04:38 PM Bubble Boy once bubbled... Yes, in an ideal world that would occur. I dont think I have ever been asked for a c-card. In fact a lot of paint ball participants use scuba cylinders as cascade bottles. Ok, so legally if a "dive shop" were to fill a tank for someone who isn't certified and said consumer was to become injured or die because of access to the tools that would allow them to participate in a dangerous sport, should said shop not be held responsible for damages? Realize that I am just curious and am not sure what the law states. Groundhog246 June 3rd, 2003, 04:53 PM re: "Paint ball" I know that 2 of the 3 local stores require a signed statement that the tank will be used for Paint ball purposes only and not as breathing gases. I trained at one LDS and since they certified me, they've never asked for a card. On the occasion when I had to get air from one of the other stores, they both reqired a C-card. Both offered (and I accepted) to put my info into their system so I could get a fill without a C card in the future, although they might ask for photo if if the person working did not recognize me. I got a tank filled in Toby last summer, they did ask for a card, I got 4 tanks filled in Newmarket last summer and they didn't ask. cobaltbabe June 3rd, 2003, 04:59 PM I get mine done at one shop right now and don't need to provide my C-card because the owner is also my instructor. I do carry my card everywhere I go so it isn't an issue at all. Groundhog246 June 3rd, 2003, 06:04 PM I carry my OW card in my wallet (never know when you might visit a store :D ) and keep my AOW card with my log book. seahunter June 4th, 2003, 01:08 AM I hate it when the conversation turns to 'what's the law?'. Everytime I say there is no law to cover that, some else says "there oughta' be a law" when in fact, what there oughta' be is responsible sellers and buyers. Anyway there is no law to cover that cobaltbabe! That is, there is no law that says a dive store must ask for certification. Also there is no law that a buyer can use to sue a store if he gets hurt. However, anyone can sue anyone else who causes him harm and the courts will decide where the fault lies. So, if I sell air to an uncertified person and he gets hurt diving he might have recourse. There is no guarantee he would win in a court but he can try. We get a lot of paintballers and airgun users coming in for fills. They have no c card but it doesn't matter. So long as I'm reasonably sure they are an adult and have no evidence that they are going to hurt themselves or someone else, there's no reason not to sell to them. Realize that the 'show me your card' was started to stop untrained scuba divers from going underwater. A tank of air is of no danger to a non-diver - certainly no more danger than a tank of propane, acetylene, gasoline, etc. seahunter June 4th, 2003, 01:19 AM I asked about the advertising because in the GTA (I wasn't aware of the ads in Ottawa) very few stores spend much money on public ads. Many depend entirely on the Yellow Pages or other very local mediums. Our store has a constant radio presence both in the GTA and in the Lake Simcoe region and it's proven very helpful. As I mentioned in another thread, many other stores benefit from our ads but that's to be expected and not a problem for me. A diver is a diver and that's better for the sport and for me than if he takes up hang gliding or whatever! Our ad budget is over $50,000 a year (realize that a 15 second ad on The Edge costs $100) NOT including Yellow Pages. We spend $2500 monthly on the Yellow Pages. We're in 19 directories. That's a lot of money but we've found it to be a good investment. cobaltbabe June 5th, 2003, 01:47 PM seahunter once bubbled... I hate it when the conversation turns to 'what's the law?'. Anyway there is no law to cover that cobaltbabe! I am truly sorry that my question upset you but since you are a business owner, and I have been in your shop, and you are aware of what is required of you as a business person, I thought I would ask. Not everyone is attacking you. Some of us are asking questions because we would like to clarify. seahunter June 9th, 2003, 12:28 AM Sorry cobalt. I do get a bit 'testy' at times because of what I consider unfair criticism. I may be vocal about my favorite dive store but I'm also the first one to take action to help divers and the scuba industry but I get darn little slack for it. I also apologize for being so long at getting back to you. I just returned from NYC and drove straight here from the airport. I'm always happy to share any knowledge I may have about the scuba business. I don't believe in keeping things a big secret. In fact, the more the divers understand the business of scuba the more they will appreciate what the store owners face each day. Chet June 9th, 2003, 02:43 AM :confused: I am not sure free air fills are the wright way or not. Seahunter has all the right to do what he wants and if you can get free air fill, well thats great for the diver. I also understand why he does it. If people come into the shop they take courses and buy stuff, thats good for the diving community, everybody. Someone told me once down in the US that is you don't have air in the bus you dont have a store or club or charter or what ever. One thing I will give Seahunter is when you read his threads and what I have heard is he always is promoting the sport and trying to make it grow ing Ontario, so the air thing helps this. The problem I have with this is why do not more places give away their air or for that matter their O2 and He? I think it would be great to drop off your tanks and get a 40 mix. I would dive more. The last statement was directed at all the other dive store people on this board. If the free gas (air) brings people to the store then having all the stuff you can put in tanks for free (and yes PUFF that means all your nasties too) would bring in the higher end people who spend alot of money on equipment and training. I met some people who dive with doubles who say they have spent over $10,000 each on equipment, training and diving and they are not done yet. Be Safe Chet pufferfish June 9th, 2003, 09:08 AM seahunter once bubbled... Our ad budget is over $50,000 a year (realize that a 15 second ad on The Edge costs $100) NOT including Yellow Pages. We spend $2500 monthly on the Yellow Pages. That's a lot of money but we've found it to be a good investment. And $450 bucks a year to meet meet MOL air requirements is not money also well spent not only from the safety angle but from the advertising angle? This is only one percent of your advertising budget or five fewer ads on The Edge. Make your air CSA Z180.1 compliant and advertise this like the Fill Station does above (to US standard) and the divers will come. And if you want to give the air away go right ahead. Your buddy Chet there seems to think giving away your oxygen and helium too would be a good idea too. Gees and he wonders why GTA dive shops are dropping like flies with ideas like that. Chet you don't buy a Hummer and then complain about gas prices. seahunter June 9th, 2003, 05:21 PM Thanks for your sensible and rational post Chet. Please put a rag in it for a few days puff. I've never said meeting Z-180 is not good and in fact, I've indicated that Trace will be ready for my next test in July. Do I have to hear this worn out speech everytime you get on or can you accept that change takes a bit of time? $450 is a very small price to pay to shut you up! If you want to put your passion to good use and I mean it sincerely, get the other dive stores on track - the one who do not listen to you, who do not try to improve their services, the ones who really don't care about standards. Perhaps you could start with the ones who allegedly have not had a test in a long time. seahunter June 9th, 2003, 05:42 PM I can't help but notice puff that everytime some one offers a calm and sensible solution you label him a 'buddy' of mine. I suppose that's a compliment to me but others may not take being labelled a buddy of seahunter without their permission so kindly. UpperCanDiver June 10th, 2003, 01:51 PM We are all friends......just having a good discussion about many topics......some good and some not so good. :rolleyes: cobaltbabe June 10th, 2003, 03:15 PM UpperCanDiver once bubbled... We are all friends......just having a good discussion about many topics......some good and some not so good. :rolleyes: Well UCD, not all on this board are friends but we are adults and at points in some conversations we need to agree to disagree and leave somethings alone.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 RC 2
|