Divemaster Responsibilities

It starts awkwardly but gets better...

Just to clarify a side issue in this thread, the 60'/100'/130' depths for PADI OW/Advanced/Deep certification levels are recommendations only. It is entirely up to each individual diver to determine their own limitations and not dive beyond them. Again, those depths are only general recommendations.

Related to the DM discussion while i agree they're not suppose to be babysitters and that each diver should ultimately be responsible for their own safety, dive professionals do have a "reasonable duty of care" obligation to the people under their charge. "Reasonable" being the operant word in that quote. If the DM was screwing around, not giving a good basic dive/safety briefing, that is not reasonable. It's not that hard to do and is a very basic obligation of a paid DM is these situation.

I'm not saying that's what happened in this case but if it did, there should be some culpablity for the Dive op & DM. I too have seen the "wow man, look at me i'm cool" dive briefing that was completely worthless even if i'm taking responsibility for my own dive. Dm's like that give the profession a bad name and it's totally unacceptable in my view.[/

Thank you for saying this. You put it in word I coundn't get out myself. But you are exactly right and that is how I felt. Thank you again!!!

hmmm...

I feel the need to comment here, I spent 5 years in the Caymans.

Generally speaking when I read a post like the one fosterboxermom made I would simply write it off as somebody dealing with the effects of what happened. After all isn't a diver ultimatly certified to be a diver?

However, and this is the BIG however because I have no way of knowing for sure. If her report of how it happened is correct then it really was all wrong. You don't take a brand new certified the day before diver on a wall dive to 100 ft and expect it to go well. The best outcome you can expect is the new diver will run out of air quickly and you'll be doing an early end to the dive and ruing it for everybody...the worse sounds like this case.

As for the joking around during the briefing, that is OK, as long as the pertinent safety information is passed along, in fact joking is a valid method of getting attention.

make no mistake a DM (who I am 99% sure holds an instructor cert) guiding a brand new certified the day before diver on a wall dive in Cayman (and Dolphin point is an area where curret is common) is stupid.

Having a diver "get away" from you as a DM/Instructor is something we have all had, but NOT when you are specifically that divers buddy! To continue the dive after losing your buddy and being the guide is stupid. Especially knowing the lost diver only got certified the day before. i would be in a panic....seriously.

Now, I have no way of knowing if the "facts" are correct, but if true it is disappointing.

cerich:

make no mistake a DM (who I am 99% sure holds an instructor cert)

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The DM is their cert level. An Instructor is ABOVE a DM. Without getting in to the full blow description of roles, a DM is meant to lead trips. And Instructor is meant to teach.

While most people who DM a boat do hold an instructor cert don't count on all operators hiring full blown instructors to DM.

Splash-X:

The DM is their cert level. An Instructor is ABOVE a DM. Without getting in to the full blow description of roles, a DM is meant to lead trips. And Instructor is meant to teach.

While most people who DM a boat do hold an instructor cert don't count on all operators hiring full blown instructors to DM.

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thanks, check out my profile

While I lived in Cayman I was(am) a Course Director, however was called and refered to myself as a DM FAR more often than as an instructor. In fact in the 5 years I lived there I knew of less than half a dozen people with Divemaster certifications working in the industry, most Caymanians. Very few ops in cayman would have hire somebody with only a Divemaster cert, unlike Florida.

This kind of stuff is why I will not five with warm water vacation divers unless I'm getting paid to. I also do not look to the dm for anything more than a site briefing and if I feel it's lacking I open my mouth and ask for more info. No one made anyone dive this profile. Properly trained and experienced divers do not do trust me dives and follow like lemmings. I make sure my students know this. If a dm is required on relatively easy dives and is expected to keep everyone safe then those divers should not have certification cards. If the divers do not know their limitations and stick to them regardless of what they are told by a dm or other divers their training sucked, they were not paying attention, or their ego got in the way. In any case the results speak for themselves. Personally I don't want a dm in the water. Better they stay on the boat and out of my dive plan.

cerich:

thanks, check out my profile

While I lived in Cayman I was(am) a Course Director, however was called and refered to myself as a DM FAR more often than as an instructor. In fact in the 5 years I lived there I knew of less than half a dozen people with Divemaster certifications working in the industry, most Caymanians. Very few ops in cayman would have hire somebody with only a Divemaster cert, unlike Florida.

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A little hostile? I'm not claiming you are not a qualified instructor. I am suggesting that the company in question may infact employ a DM and not an instructor to lead their dives. Based upon your reading of this thread, does this in any way sound like an instructor? It doesn't sound like an instructor to me.

It is rather offensive to state that dive operators in the state of Florida are negligent because not all operators use instructors to lead divers on tours.

Every level of professional certification has its role to play in the sport of diving. To knock the role of a DM shows your ego as a dive professional.

Splash-X:

A little hostile? I'm not claiming you are not a qualified instructor. I am suggesting that the company in question may infact employ a DM and not an instructor to lead their dives. Based upon your reading of this thread, does this in any way sound like an instructor? It doesn't sound like an instructor to me.

It is rather offensive to state that dive operators in the state of Florida are negligent because not all operators use instructors to lead divers on tours.

Every level of professional certification has its role to play in the sport of diving. To knock the role of a DM shows your ego as a dive professional.

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actually I consider being called a DM a bigger compliment than instructor.

You assumed I didn't know what i was talking about. I do.

Yes, it sounds like an instructor to me. In particular I KNOW that DM's on Cayman are instructors most of the time.

I never stated that Dive operators in Florida are negligent??? Where did you get that? I have just observed (I also worked in the dive industry in Florida) that most DM's in florida have Divemaster not instructor certifications.

cerich,

I didn't mean to imply you didnt know what you were talking about, I had simply intended to correct the assumption that 99% of DMs are instructors.

I'm have no experience with the PADI program itself so I can't say anything, good or bad, about it. I myself have gone through the SSI agency and we have different standards when it comes to the Divecon and Instructor roles which is in itself a totaly different topic.

It was my impression that you were stating that operators in Florida are "unsafe" because they don't use instructors. That was an error in my interpitation.



All in all, I think the primary question is who was the victims buddy. It has been stated that the DM was the buddy but I haven't seen that the DM himself actually knew he was the persons buddy. The reason that is so important is if it was not clearly stated, the DM was relying on the communication of the persons buddy if he went missing.

What are the PADI time limits based on tables for 100ft? I'm assuming the person didn't have a Nitrox cert because they were only a new diver. Based on my agency tables, you would be able to have a max of 15 mins at 100ft. If you stayed the MAX time, your surface interval would be a long time before your second dive.

vladimir:

These are telling comments. It sounds to me like your divemaster was not particularly competent. Nevertheless, even an inexperienced diver is, at least theoretically, able to dive independently in the conditions he was certified in. He should not be relying on a divemaster to "keep him safe." If you are "taking your chances" by renting tanks and diving independently, then you should not be diving.

As has been discussed quite a bit on this board, however, many dive courses do not equip their students with the capability to dive independently and safely, instead relying on resort divemasters to keep their graduates safe. As I see it, this is at the root of your friend's death, and there is ample blame to go around.

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And when one first gets their pilots license they are told to "stay close", "play it safe", and even "take a flight isntructor if you feel the need".

I am saddened by this loss, and I do completely understand what most are saying because they LOATHE the idea of more stringent regulation, but passing the training is simply that, passing the training.

We call a newly issued pilots certificate a "license to learn". Why? Because you will NOT know it all, and there is so much you still do not know, but can still function in the air system that you are allowed to fly by yourself. Same seems to go for diving.

The honest reality is though that once "on your own" a newbie diver may find their training, their skills, woefully inadequate to the task. Or something goes wrong, etc.

I will say this, until learning more about diving I would have told you that I though that a DM was there for everyone's safety, not some "tour guide". Heck if that is the case why have DM's?

Too many are too flippant or casual about the realities that newb divers (myself included) need a bit more coddling than the 100+ diver. Yet they are new to the whole "scene" and ya know what...right or wrong, peer pressure is a bitch. So we make mistakes, assumptions, etc. that lead us into trouble.