Tobermory Dive Operations [Archive]

Coldwater_Canuck

June 2nd, 2009, 10:49 PM

Web Monkey

June 2nd, 2009, 11:30 PM

Hey, so considering I've spent 95% of my life in Ontario, I figure I should probably do some diving here at some point. Looking around it sounds like Tobermory has some great diving and a couple good dive operations (who seem almost identical in terms of sites, pricing, etc.).

I guess I have a few questions:

a.) How difficult are the various dives in general?

They're all different. (not much help, sorry) Some are shallow and some are very deep. Some are absolutely technical dives and some are almost snorkeling depth. They're all cold. Below the thermocline, it's really cold.

The shallower wrecks tend to be more beat up and some just look like a pile of boards, but also tend to be easier.

b.) I assume that other than the technical dives, the divers on the boats aren't expecting to do penetration dives or deco dives? If they are, is there anyway to know they'll find you a buddy who isn't expecting to do the more technical types of dives? I ask this because I don't have overhead or wreck diving experience beyond a couple tiny wrecks I observed from the outside.

Some of the wrecks have either been sanitized, looted or just broken up enough that you can do things like swim through the wheelhouse, and easily see several large, open exits, however absolutely do not penetrate any wrecks anywhere (go through hatches, down passageways, etc) without proper training and equipment and a 100% known-good buddy, regardless of who wants to go where.

The dives have no "DM" or guide of any type, so you'll need to make sure that you do your own dive and gas planning and monitor your own depth, tank pressure, buddy, etc. Although I don't want to make it sound more dangerous than it is, it's entirely possible to screw up and kill or injure yourself.

Terry

Coldwater_Canuck

June 2nd, 2009, 11:46 PM

Thanks Terry!

They're all different. (not much help, sorry) Some are shallow and some are very deep. Some are absolutely technical dives and some are almost snorkeling depth. They're all cold. Below the thermocline, it's really cold.

Well it's not so much depth I'm concerned about, since the sites list all the depths pretty well and with depth I have more of an idea what I'm getting into. My maximum depth so far is 110 feet (although I consider around 90 feet about the most I'd feel reasonably comfortable with now).

What do you define as "really" cold. About the warmest dive I've done was 50, the coldest I think I hit 43 (Fahrenheit). So I'm not exactly expecting warm water.

Some of the wrecks have either been sanitized, looted or just broken up enough that you can do things like swim through the wheelhouse, and easily see several large, open exits, however absolutely do not penetrate any wrecks anywhere (go through hatches, down passageways, etc) without proper training and equipment and a 100% known-good buddy, regardless of who wants to go where.

The dives have no "DM" or guide of any type, so you'll need to make sure that you do your own dive and gas planning and monitor your own depth, tank pressure, buddy, etc. Although I don't want to make it sound more dangerous than it is, it's entirely possible to screw up and kill or injure yourself.

Terry
Oh definitely, no way was I planning to penetrate a wreck. That's what I was asking about, actually. Are there people on the regular dive boats who are doing penetration? The situation I'd worry about is I go there myself and then everyone on the boat is doing something beyond my abilities. That's why I'm less concerned about depth: I'll know the sites ahead of time so won't have any surprises.

It will just be easier if I can convince someone to come with me, but I only have a couple friends in Ontario who are divers.

bleeb

June 2nd, 2009, 11:59 PM

Web Monkey

June 2nd, 2009, 11:59 PM

What do you define as "really" cold. About the warmest dive I've done was 50, the coldest I think I hit 43 (Fahrenheit). So I'm not exactly expecting warm water.

Depending on the time of year, that's probably pretty close to what you'll find.

Oh definitely, no way was I planning to penetrate a wreck. That's what I was asking about, actually. Are there people on the regular divoe boats who are doing penetration? No idea. We've always bought out the boat, so I don't know what happens with mixed groups.

The situation I'd worry about is I go there myself and then everyone on the boat is doing something beyond my abilities. That's why I'm less concerned about depth: I'll know the sites ahead of time so won't have any surprises. Check with the dive ops. They would know what's going on for specific dates.

Terry

Coldwater_Canuck

June 3rd, 2009, 12:17 AM

Most of the dive sites are within Five Fathoms National Marine Park. While the descriptions on the dive op web sites aren't bad, if you haven't already, you might also want to have a look at the park web site: Parks Canada - Diving (http://www.pc.gc.ca/amnc-nmca/on/fathomfive/activ/activ2_e.asp)
Ah that links useful, thanks.

No idea. We've always bought out the boat, so I don't know what happens with mixed groups.

Check with the dive ops. They would know what's going on for specific dates.

Terry

You're probably right, they must have some sort of plan in advance even with 'walk-ons'. Knowing who you're diving with ahead of time is a definite plus.

And saying that, I guess I may as well ask on here, although it's a longshot, if there's anyone who would be interested going there on the July 4 weekend and needs a buddy, let me know. What I'd really like to do (and no idea if this will work out with the operators schedules) is get in 1 (shallow) night dive, 1 deeper dive (as in 60-90ish feet), and 1 shallower dive in the day.

bleeb

June 3rd, 2009, 11:10 AM

You're probably right, they must have some sort of plan in advance even with 'walk-ons'. Knowing who you're diving with ahead of time is a definite plus.

My general experience: The charters generally prefer to pair dives which are in the same general geographical direction from the harbor, although if you're helping to specify the itinerary there seems to be a bit of flexibility as to exactly which sites get chosen. Most common pairings are on the shop web sites. If you phone up a few weeks ahead of time and a boat doesn't have an itinerary set yet, they're generally willing to take input especially if you're reserving for a larger group. A day or two before the scheduled sailing, they'll have itineraries set and written on the chalk board for boats that still have room.

ScubaSteve

June 3rd, 2009, 11:21 AM

Web Monkey

June 3rd, 2009, 11:25 AM

You can call Diver's Den or G+S (see link below for links to their sites) in Tobermory and ask what they have planned for a given day. A typical outing for them (I MUCH prefer Diver's Den) is a dive on the Niagara II and then a dive at The Grotto/The Caves. That is a Deep ~100' / Shallow ~40' dive configuration. The night dive will likely depend on turnout for the rest of the boat. Too few divers = no dive.

For the night dive you could also do a shore dive. There are some great shore dives such as the Lighthouse which makes a great night dive.

This may be useful for dive sites (shore) and links to places as well as information on specific sites. (http://www.divingmyway.com/tobysites.html)

I forgot about the lighthouse!

It's actually a very cool dive. I could happily spend a good part of the weekend just doing shore dives around the point.

Terry

ScubaSteve

June 3rd, 2009, 11:40 AM

Yup and it is a VERY dive. Easy entry and very cool rock formations and overhangs etc. It is still only one of many great shore dives there.....unfortunately I did not finish the page I linked so a couple of the sites have no link....but they are still great dives.

The Niagara II is a fun dive as well but I do not think I have ever crossed the thermocline and found it to be warmer than 45 degrees. The Caroline Rose was a shallower wreck and sort of interesting but in smaller pieces unlike the Niagara II.

shoredivr

June 3rd, 2009, 11:41 AM

You could do your shallow night dive at the Tugs Diver's Den (http://www.diversden.ca/ds_tugs.html) which would be on your own time not the charter operators (just need a buddy). The Tugs are right in town, there's a gearing up deck and steps, near the parking lot, it couldn't be easier.

There is usually a 9 am two tank dive, then a 1 pm two tank dive, so you can get your other dives by choosing what depth wrecks you want to see:

Divers Den (http://www.diversden.ca/index.html)
G+S Welcomes Walk-Ons (http://www.gswatersports.com/Walkons.htm)

Good wreck descriptions on the Divers Den site.

There are now three dive operators in Tobermory, the new one at the south end of town
Tobermory Aquasports (http://www.tobermoryaquasports.com/)

While I've been on Toby charters that had divers wearing doubles and divers in single tanks, there seemed to be no problems finding a buddy that matched one's diving skills in regards to doing no penetration/tech dives if that was what you wanted. Note that wearing doubles does not automatically mean tech diver, There are Great Lakes divers wear doubles and are not tech trained.

The "caves" should probably be called "the caverns" as the swim throughs are not more than 150 ft long with no daylight. The topography of these caverns: there is a central area that is open to the sky in places, (swimmers and snorkelers access this area when the water's warmer), then there are two underwater swim throughs that go out to Georgian Bay. For me, once was enough, but it is a kind of signature dive of the area.

In terms of penetration, the only one I can think of realistically is the purposely-sunk Niagara II. As Webmonkey mentioned, it has been "sanitized" for divers: open holds, etc. but if you don't have training, why go inside?

If I'm around on that weekend, I might be up there anyway. PM me closer to the date if you like.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 3rd, 2009, 01:57 PM

You can call Diver's Den or G+S (see link below for links to their sites) in Tobermory and ask what they have planned for a given day. A typical outing for them (I MUCH prefer Diver's Den) is a dive on the Niagara II and then a dive at The Grotto/The Caves. That is a Deep ~100' / Shallow ~40' dive configuration. The night dive will likely depend on turnout for the rest of the boat. Too few divers = no dive.

That's actually the pairing that looked the most interesting to me and why I was asking about it. G+S seems to have night Niagra dives pretty regularly, but with my experience I don't want to combine deep and night yet (in the future it would probably be a fun one though). Right in summer though, I'm hoping they may have one to the shallower sites.

By the way, why do you prefer Divers Den?

For the night dive you could also do a shore dive. There are some great shore dives such as the Lighthouse which makes a great night dive.
If I have someone to go with, that would definately be a good option.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 3rd, 2009, 02:02 PM

You could do your shallow night dive at the Tugs Diver's Den (http://www.diversden.ca/ds_tugs.html) which would be on your own time not the charter operators (just need a buddy). The Tugs are right in town, there's a gearing up deck and steps, near the parking lot, it couldn't be easier.

There is usually a 9 am two tank dive, then a 1 pm two tank dive, so you can get your other dives by choosing what depth wrecks you want to see:

Divers Den (http://www.diversden.ca/index.html)
G+S Welcomes Walk-Ons (http://www.gswatersports.com/Walkons.htm)

Good wreck descriptions on the Divers Den site.

There are now three dive operators in Tobermory, the new one at the south end of town
Tobermory Aquasports (http://www.tobermoryaquasports.com/)

Thanks for all the info.

While I've been on Toby charters that had divers wearing doubles and divers in single tanks, there seemed to be no problems finding a buddy that matched one's diving skills in regards to doing no penetration/tech dives if that was what you wanted. Note that wearing doubles does not automatically mean tech diver, There are Great Lakes divers wear doubles and are not tech trained.
That's good. I suppose doubles doesn't atuomatically mean tech dive (although wouldn't it be difficult to stay within NDC?), although I doubt they'd want to be diving with a single tank diver anyways.

The "caves" should probably be called "the caverns" as the swim throughs are not more than 150 ft long with no daylight. The topography of these caverns: there is a central area that is open to the sky in places, (swimmers and snorkelers access this area when the water's warmer), then there are two underwater swim throughs that go out to Georgian Bay. For me, once was enough, but it is a kind of signature dive of the area.

So I'm still a little confused here. Is this something that you should have specialized training for, or is it truly a 'novice' dive as Divers Den says?

In terms of penetration, the only one I can think of realistically is the purposely-sunk Niagara II. As Webmonkey mentioned, it has been "sanitized" for divers: open holds, etc. but if you don't have training, why go inside?

Okay so if most can't be penetrated I guess most people there won't be planning to do this type of dive anyways.

If I'm around on that weekend, I might be up there anyway. PM me closer to the date if you like.
Alright cool.

bleeb

June 3rd, 2009, 02:44 PM

The "caves" should probably be called "the caverns" as the swim throughs are not more than 150 ft long with no daylight. The topography of these caverns: there is a central area that is open to the sky in places, (swimmers and snorkelers access this area when the water's warmer), then there are two underwater swim throughs that go out to Georgian Bay. For me, once was enough, but it is a kind of signature dive of the area.

So I'm still a little confused here. Is this something that you should have specialized training for, or is it truly a 'novice' dive as Divers Den says?

I think when shoredivr said 150 ft, he was talking about general definitions of caverns, and not specifically about "The Caves". IIRC (it's been a few years) the swim throughs between the open air central area and the Bay are maybe 10-20' depth, 20-30' long, 10'ish wide, with hard granite/large gravel bottoms (no possibility of silt unless there's a major storm in progress washing it in from deeper waters out on the lake), and I don't think real cave divers would consider this as having any restrictions. Daylight visible throughout.

Lots of non-divers hike into the area and go swimming from the nearby shore or by walking into "The Caves" from the land-side entrances and jumping into the natural pool in the open area in the middle. (They also seem to find the divers swimming around on the bottom pretty entertaining - bring a light and shine it around, even during the day.) One of the bigger hazard to divers can actually be from some kid not paying attention and jumping off the rocks. IIRC, some boats have recommended staying towards the sides (overhung) or deep.

Novice? IMHO, pretty close to that. I vaguely remember hearing that the local shops have occasionally done checkouts on the adjoining "beach", which would suggest they're comfortable taking beginners there.

helimvee

June 3rd, 2009, 08:55 PM

Like any dive destination, you are going to find a wide range of divers and skill/training levels. If you are going up there without a buddy just be prepared for that.

As for the Caves/Caverns, aside from the swimmers jumping into the water the only other "hazards" are diver congestion in one swim through - you may have to back up or squeeze to the side - and Seadoos in the area. On one trip there were several operating right near the entrance to the Caves/Caverns where the water is not very deep.

As you are probably aware, Toby can be a very busy place in the summer, so be sure to make reservations if you are planning on staying in a hotel.

Have a good trip

BTW I suspect that ScubaSteve's preference for Divers Den was due to the charter boat being a llittle more diver friendly.

shoredivr

June 4th, 2009, 09:23 AM

Thanks for all the info.

That's good. I suppose doubles doesn't atuomatically mean tech dive (although wouldn't it be difficult to stay within NDC?), although I doubt they'd want to be diving with a single tank diver anyways.

You could treat your doubles as having enough gas for one NDL recreational dive, then enough gas for the next NDL recreational dive. I've been on charters where that's the case, in fact I did that myself last week :-)

The 150 ft comment I made about the toby caves is covered in a couple of post above, yes I meant that the swimthroughs are nowhere near the tech definition of a cave (more than 150 ft to daylight).

And I second scubaSteve's comments to Divers Den, they seem to like divers a bit better there :-) plus i like their boats better.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 4th, 2009, 10:32 PM

I think when shoredivr said 150 ft, he was talking about general definitions of caverns, and not specifically about "The Caves". IIRC (it's been a few years) the swim throughs between the open air central area and the Bay are maybe 10-20' depth, 20-30' long, 10'ish wide, with hard granite/large gravel bottoms (no possibility of silt unless there's a major storm in progress washing it in from deeper waters out on the lake), and I don't think real cave divers would consider this as having any restrictions. Daylight visible throughout.

Okay thanks. So even though it's technically an "overhead environment" it doesn't sound like it has all the threats PADI tries to warn us about (no real possibility of getting lost, running out of air, etc.)

You could treat your doubles as having enough gas for one NDL recreational dive, then enough gas for the next NDL recreational dive. I've been on charters where that's the case, in fact I did that myself last week :-)

You mean you use the same set for both dives? I guess I can see a couple advantages to this (probably less wasteful (air left over) and not having to change gear between dives) but doesn't the extra weight outweigh these?

The 150 ft comment I made about the toby caves is covered in a couple of post above, yes I meant that the swimthroughs are nowhere near the tech definition of a cave (more than 150 ft to daylight).

Ya I wasn't sure what you were referring to. But even if it doesn't meet the tech definition, even some recreational cavern diving should have special training (I think the main concern is even in daylight it's possible to get lost). But this specific case doesn't sound like something anyone would use a reel or whatever for. If it's just a simple one end to the other swimthrough in a large area in shallow waters, this seems pretty safe.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 4th, 2009, 10:32 PM

ScubaSteve

June 5th, 2009, 08:43 AM

shoredivr

June 5th, 2009, 10:11 AM

Helimvee is in fact correct. I found the boat that I have dove off of through G+S to be very uncomfortable to "exit". I believe I have seem Ber Rabbit (an SB Staffer) refer to it as the "Tobermory Twist" because it is unlike anything that you have likely been taught or ever seen. Picture yourself having to step over a 2 foot (dimension estimate) high wall while completely suited up (fins included) so that you are straddling the wall and precariously stepping on a 3" wide (dimension estimate) ledge on the outside to perform what can best be described as a cartwheel out of the boat into the water. The shop themselves is good, the air fill station is good, the people are god.....I just do not enjoy diving off their boat but others do. IMO Diver's Den has it all going for them but then that is just my opinion.

:rofl3::rofl3::rofl3:

Don't like that sideways flop entry mode off the Mamie, huh? ;)
The Mamie is a converted-to-dive-use old Great Lakes fishing boat, and the exit ScubaSteve is mentioning is though openings in the metal hull a third of the way from the bow and half way down the sides, and about 5 ft above the water. It makes for quite a splash and you'd better be holding your mask correctly when you hit the water from the side.....

To be fair, G and S has other boats, too.

But my favourite dive boat in Toby is still the Deep Obsession. http://www.diversden.ca/charter.html

*edit*
Here's a link to a pic of the Mamie, scroll down and you'll see the unique Great Lakes fishing boat shape on the right. There's probably a specific name for that style of boat. In the pic the front entry window is partially obscured by a white cover. However, no pic of a sideways flop entry....

http://www.gswatersports.com/Boats.htm

Coldwater_Canuck

June 5th, 2009, 11:29 PM

haha sounds like fun :eyebrow:

Anyways, I just saw Divers Den has a San Jacinto / City of Clevland trip on July 4, exactly the weekend I'm free. It sounds like that would be a great trip and the deepest it gets is around 80 feet: perfect for me.

So I'll probably sign up for that, and maybe if there's something on Friday I'll sign up for that as well to get myself warmed up.

shoredivr

June 5th, 2009, 11:37 PM

Coldwater_Canuck

June 6th, 2009, 03:06 PM

That's a great wreck, just found in the past 15 years...lots of deadeyes and front winch intact. It's like the port and starboard sides just opened like a book and then the deck fell right flat down on the sides. The City of Cleveland is great, too, debris field spread over quite a distance, lots of cool tings to see in the wreckage. Neither site gets dived much as it's north of the National Park.

Hmm, hope I'm free that day, they are great dives.

That's good to hear. I thought they sounded like pretty good sites, but they only run the trips occasionally. Pure luck that they happened to run one the day I was planning to go. So I'll probably sign up for it next week.

Graeme Tolton

June 7th, 2009, 09:31 PM

Coldwater_Canuck

June 7th, 2009, 11:01 PM

The caves, I can swim through both tunnels on one breath, no SCUBA. I had a lot more fun there with just mask, snorkel and fins than I did on SCUBA. As for the boats, G&S has the Joseph Simon which has a hydraulic lift on the back, which is great for getting back aboard, especially if you have several heavy tanks! I was on the lark this morning on a 2 dive trip out to the Niagara II. It is a good boat to be on with a small group. I was with another diver this morning who had never been on Niagara before and we had plenty to see on 2 dives with no penetration.
Good to hear all of that. I've heard the Joseph Simon is an awesome boat (and the hydraulic lift would definitely be helpful (of course I could always end up on the Lark)).

Anyways, I've contacted Divers Den and am setting up the dives, I've just got to call tomorrow to confirm everything.

Two more questions to you Tobermory pros:
1.) How can I pay that National Park fee: do I have to actually go there in person or can I pay it ahead of time online somewhere?

2.) What is generally the tipping procedure on these boats (this is kind of a stupid question because you're supposed to tip what you feel is appropriate, but in reality there are certain expectations, so I just ask)?

bleeb

June 7th, 2009, 11:26 PM

1.) How can I pay that National Park fee: do I have to actually go there in person or can I pay it ahead of time online somewhere?

Maybe someone more knowledgeable can correct me, but AFAIK the diver registration has to be paid for in person at the same time you sign the park release. The Visitor's Centre is about a 5-10 min walk from the harbour, or when you first arrive, you pass by the turn-off just before reaching town. In the past it's been open till 8 or 9 during summer weekends but I couldn't find hours for this summer on their web site. On busy weekends, there may even be a park staff member selling passes right on the docks. Their office used to be conveniently right on the harbour, but they closed it when they built that fancy new Visitor's Centre a few years ago.

elan

June 8th, 2009, 12:09 AM

elan

June 8th, 2009, 12:12 AM

2.) What is generally the tipping procedure on these boats (this is kind of a stupid question because you're supposed to tip what you feel is appropriate, but in reality there are certain expectations, so I just ask)?

I just usually give captain 10 bucks for 2 single tank dives at the end of the trip. No one complained yet:) I have not been diving many charters yet but out of those I have done all of them were very helpful and nice.

elan

June 8th, 2009, 12:22 AM

I guess I have a few questions:

a.) How difficult are the various dives in general?

Thanks!

I have been just on 2 Georgian Bay sites yet and my observation is it's not that much of the difficulty of the wreck (assuming you dive within rec limits and do not penetrate) but the cold water. It is dangerous. Do not overlook it. We dove 38-43F in Georgian Bay and it brought us surprises. Be careful and have good regs and good exposure protection, dive redundant if you go below 50-60'.
Today I have found that my crab mitts are not adequate for those conditions. We dove today and at the end of the dive on the 40 minute or so my fingers were so cold that my actions like purging the valves were really slow. I cannot wait for my dry gloves to arrive.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 8th, 2009, 12:37 AM

I have been just on 2 Georgian Bay sites yet and my observation is it's not that much of the difficulty of the wreck (assuming you dive within rec limits and do not penetrate) but the cold water. It is dangerous. Do not overlook it. We dove 38-43F in Georgian Bay and it brought us surprises. Be careful and have good regs and good exposure protection, dive redundant if you go below 50-60'.
Today I have found that my crab mitts are not adequate for those conditions. We dove today and at the end of the dive on the 40 minute or so my fingers were so cold that my actions like purging the valves were really slow. I cannot wait for my dry gloves to arrive.

While I've never dipped quite to that range, I've been close to it, I believe the coldest I've gotten at depth was 43 and it didn't cause me any problems. My reg is sealed and suitable for cold water. For a wetsuit, I don't own one yet so I'm hoping the dive shop gives me a suitable one (I'm hoping they use 7mm farmer johns here). It's weird, I've never felt my fingers get cold (the only thing I find painful is my forehead when I first get in cold water).

You're right that it is a concern, but I think it's one I'm used to overall. One thing that does worry me is proper weighting since I've never been in freshwater.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 8th, 2009, 12:38 AM

I just usually give captain 10 bucks for 2 single tank dives at the end of the trip. No one complained yet:) I have not been diving many charters yet but out of those I have done all of them were very helpful and nice.
That sounds about right. Are there any divemasters on the boat (I've been on some dives where there is a divemaster who stays in the boat), and are you supposed to tip them as well.

Maybe someone more knowledgeable can correct me, but AFAIK the diver registration has to be paid for in person at the same time you sign the park release. The Visitor's Centre is about a 5-10 min walk from the harbour, or when you first arrive, you pass by the turn-off just before reaching town. In the past it's been open till 8 or 9 during summer weekends but I couldn't find hours for this summer on their web site. On busy weekends, there may even be a park staff member selling passes right on the docks. Their office used to be conveniently right on the harbour, but they closed it when they built that fancy new Visitor's Centre a few years ago.
Ah that's annoying. I've got to make it there by noon from Waterloo and will have to add in time to pay the fee.

shoredivr

June 8th, 2009, 12:58 AM

The Visitor's Center opens at 8am. The registration process is not lengthy, one form to fill out and fee paid. It takes me 3 hours exactly to get to Tobermory from Elora, which is half an hour from the north end of Waterloo, so if you leave by 8 am from Waterloo you should be peachy, Visitor's Center included. Pm me if you want the direct route, not Hwy 6, shaves ~15 minutes off time travelled. :eyebrow:

Diver Rick

June 8th, 2009, 03:06 AM

Hey, so considering I've spent 95% of my life in Ontario, I figure I should probably do some diving here at some point......

Yes, Toby should be on your "to do" list.

But, if you are returning to Ontario after an extended absence, then you really should consider diving in the Kingston and Broclville areas.

In my opinion, much better diving conditions than in Toby. Warmer, wrecks are more intact, and not as far a drive from the Toronto area!!

Keep your options open. Lots of operators to choose from. You could spend two or three weeks in the area and not run out of dive sites to visit!

elan

June 8th, 2009, 10:32 AM

That sounds about right. Are there any divemasters on the boat (I've been on some dives where there is a divemaster who stays in the boat), and are you supposed to tip them as well.

To tell you the truth I did not know if there were any. Usually the cap has a person who helps divers a bit here and there. I was just giving the tips to the cap and let them figure out themselves who owns what.

elan

June 8th, 2009, 11:01 AM

For a wetsuit, I don't own one yet so I'm hoping the dive shop gives me a suitable one (I'm hoping they use 7mm farmer johns here).

That might be a bit cold :) We had a person on the boat a week a go who was cold after 40 mins in 47F and skipped the second dive.

It's weird, I've never felt my fingers get cold (the only thing I find painful is my forehead when I first get in cold water).
That might be sinuses that were not equalized. I get this from time to time. Slow but pushy blow into the nose while holding it closed helps.

You're right that it is a concern, but I think it's one I'm used to overall. One thing that does worry me is proper weighting since I've never been in freshwater.

It's much simpler with fresh water as you can check your weight in the pool :) and just use it in the OW and it will work !:D Or now you can do it in just on the beech in Lake Ontario.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 8th, 2009, 05:49 PM

To tell you the truth I did not know if there were any. Usually the cap has a person who helps divers a bit here and there. I was just giving the tips to the cap and let them figure out themselves who owns what.
Hmm not sure if that would be the divemaster or not. The boat I went on he basically calculated NDCs, helped us get set up, explained the dives, etc. It wasn't a critical position, I think just to cover the dive shop for liability

Yes, Toby should be on your "to do" list.

But, if you are returning to Ontario after an extended absence, then you really should consider diving in the Kingston and Broclville areas.

In my opinion, much better diving conditions than in Toby. Warmer, wrecks are more intact, and not as far a drive from the Toronto area!!

Keep your options open. Lots of operators to choose from. You could spend two or three weeks in the area and not run out of dive sites to visit!
Thanks for the tips, I'm going up to Toby (I like that shortcut, quicker to type, which I've now mitigated by typing this explanation :) ) but I'll keep those sites in mind for the future.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 8th, 2009, 05:55 PM

That might be a bit cold :) We had a person on the boat a week a go who was cold after 40 mins in 47F and skipped the second dive.

That might be sinuses that were not equalized. I get this from time to time. Slow but pushy blow into the nose while holding it closed helps.

It's much simpler with fresh water as you can check your weight in the pool :) and just use it in the OW and it will work !:D Or now you can do it in just on the beech in Lake Ontario.
By July the water shouldn't dip too much below 50, I think I'll be fine in a 7mil

I don't think it was an equalization problem, just my forehead is really sensitive to hot and cold for some reason (not sure if most people are like this or not).

And I'd love to check my weights in a pool or the beach if I have time. If not, I'll just estimate: I think I need to shed off around 6 or 7 pounds. I'll bring some extra weights along in case I'm underweighted.

=======

Anyways, dives all set up. The lady I spoke with at Divers Den was very friendly and said since I was the first to talk about the dives on Friday, I basically could pick what they'd schedule. So there's now a Niagra/Caves on Friday at 1pm, a (tenative) night dive to Sweepstakes, and then the trip on Saturday.

Should be a nice, full couple days of diving (and will push me into the next ScubaBoard "number of dives" tier haha). Now I just need to book a hotel for the Friday night.

Thanks everyone for your advice and help!

bleeb

June 8th, 2009, 06:45 PM

By July the water shouldn't dip too much below 50

Um, possibly, but I wouldn't rely on this 100%, depending on your temperature tolerance. This is cold deep Canadian lake water (i.e. <4 C), and Lake Huron is one of the colder deeper ones. If it hasn't been stormy lately, there will be a thermocline, but if the water has been stirred up, surface water temperatures will be lower.

Fished out my computer log from the last August trip to the Niagara.

Air temp inland: 25 C/77 F (had been up to 29 C earlier that week)
Surface water temp (relatively calm and sunny): 68 F/20 C
Thermocline: 40'/12 m (above the top of the wreck)
Temp below thermocline: 43 F/6 C

My computer reads a couple of degrees high. We didn't even go close to mud level (100') to try to find if there was a second thermocline that day, which I've heard sometimes happens. However, I did manage with a 7 mm (Farmer John).

Graeme Tolton

June 9th, 2009, 05:36 PM

Um, possibly, but I wouldn't rely on this 100%, depending on your temperature tolerance. This is cold deep Canadian lake water (i.e. <4 C), and Lake Huron is one of the colder deeper ones. If it hasn't been stormy lately, there will be a thermocline, but if the water has been stirred up, surface water temperatures will be lower.

Fished out my computer log from the last August trip to the Niagara.

Air temp inland: 25 C/77 F (had been up to 29 C earlier that week)
Surface water temp (relatively calm and sunny): 68 F/20 C
Thermocline: 40'/12 m (above the top of the wreck)
Temp below thermocline: 43 F/6 C

My computer reads a couple of degrees high. We didn't even go close to mud level (100') to try to find if there was a second thermocline that day, which I've heard sometimes happens. However, I did manage with a 7 mm (Farmer John).

There was no thermocline as of sunday. We hit 80' on Niagara. It was 43 all the way down. The caves is a cool site, but a 2 dive trip to niagara is much more enjoyable.

On some of the other boats, there is a captain and a divemaster aboard. The divemaster stays on the boat and gives you a briefing before entering the water.

Also, I do not recomend any diving in Toby without some form of redundant air supply. Air sharing is not good enough for these conditions. 2 divers breathing heavily on 1 first stage is working it way too hard.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 9th, 2009, 08:57 PM

Um, possibly, but I wouldn't rely on this 100%, depending on your temperature tolerance. This is cold deep Canadian lake water (i.e. <4 C), and Lake Huron is one of the colder deeper ones. If it hasn't been stormy lately, there will be a thermocline, but if the water has been stirred up, surface water temperatures will be lower.

Fished out my computer log from the last August trip to the Niagara.

Air temp inland: 25 C/77 F (had been up to 29 C earlier that week)
Surface water temp (relatively calm and sunny): 68 F/20 C
Thermocline: 40'/12 m (above the top of the wreck)
Temp below thermocline: 43 F/6 C

My computer reads a couple of degrees high. We didn't even go close to mud level (100') to try to find if there was a second thermocline that day, which I've heard sometimes happens. However, I did manage with a 7 mm (Farmer John).

Okay fair enough, that would probably start to get a little chilly, but as you said you managed in a Farmer John. It's not like I'm coming from diving in the Carribean here, I'm used to cold water, whether a few extra degrees: if I happen to hit those temps, makes a big difference, we'll see.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 9th, 2009, 09:01 PM

There was no thermocline as of sunday. We hit 80' on Niagara. It was 43 all the way down. The caves is a cool site, but a 2 dive trip to niagara is much more enjoyable.

I think the Caves is one I just want to do once. I'm sure Niagra has a lot better "replay" value, but Caves is one I feel like I just have to see.

On some of the other boats, there is a captain and a divemaster aboard. The divemaster stays on the boat and gives you a briefing before entering the water.
Are you supposed to tip them?

Also, I do not recomend any diving in Toby without some form of redundant air supply. Air sharing is not good enough for these conditions. 2 divers breathing heavily on 1 first stage is working it way too hard.
What do you mean by "these conditions?" The cold? Regulators are made so they can have 2 people breathing off them, and people dive in water in the 40s all the time without having a "pony requirement".

Graeme Tolton

June 9th, 2009, 10:35 PM

Yes, caves are a do once. I am just saying that you would have just as much or more fun there with just a snorkel, swimming through... I will never go there with scuba again. Then again, not everyone would be able to freedive through the tunnels.

If you would tip a DM in the caribbean, you would tip a DM/cap here. It's all what you think their services warrant. They are there for you and probably aren't making a whole lot just to be there.

Yes, I do mean the cold, the depths, etc. The fact is, most of the diving related deaths in this area (and most other areas) are related to either OOA situations or non-diving related medical conditions. Not only are you more likely to have a regulator problem at the cold temps, it is more important in cold water to make a slow ascent, because the colder your body temperature is, the more nitrogen uptake you have.

I am not saying that there is any kind of requirement for a pony, I am saying that if you have a redundant air source and have practiced with and are comfortable using it, you are less likely to be another statistic.

BTW, 38f fresh water is not the same as 38f salt water. It is the freezing temperature of the water that makes the biggest difference.

Web Monkey

June 9th, 2009, 10:59 PM

What do you mean by "these conditions?" The cold? Regulators are made so they can have 2 people breathing off them, and people dive in water in the 40s all the time without having a "pony requirement".

People have died quite horribly after OOA problems on some of the deeper wrecks in Tobermory.

I own sealed cold water regs (Atomic M1s) but there's absolutely no way I'd be doing any 120'+ freezing cold dives without a fully redundant air source like doubles or a large pony.

Terry

Coldwater_Canuck

June 11th, 2009, 12:22 AM

Yes, caves are a do once. I am just saying that you would have just as much or more fun there with just a snorkel, swimming through... I will never go there with scuba again. Then again, not everyone would be able to freedive through the tunnels.
Personally, I wouldn't trust my breath holding ability for that.

If you would tip a DM in the caribbean, you would tip a DM/cap here. It's all what you think their services warrant. They are there for you and probably aren't making a whole lot just to be there.

Well the thing is in the Caribbean they are usually leading the dive and all that. The divemasters I've seen on boats basically are just there to make sure nothing goes wrong. So it's a little different situation.

Yes, I do mean the cold, the depths, etc. The fact is, most of the diving related deaths in this area (and most other areas) are related to either OOA situations or non-diving related medical conditions. Not only are you more likely to have a regulator problem at the cold temps, it is more important in cold water to make a slow ascent, because the colder your body temperature is, the more nitrogen uptake you have.

I am not saying that there is any kind of requirement for a pony, I am saying that if you have a redundant air source and have practiced with and are comfortable using it, you are less likely to be another statistic.

Oh I'm not going to argue the merits of having a pony, and I plan to buy one myself once I return to Seattle. I think I just misinterpreted your original post as basically needing to have one.

But for this dive it will be close to the warmest part of the year, and I doubt I'll be going past around 80 feet or so, so it's probably not the worst possible conditions. But I agree with you overall.

BTW, 38f fresh water is not the same as 38f salt water. It is the freezing temperature of the water that makes the biggest difference.
Okay you lost me, I know salt water doesn't freeze as easily, but I don't see why this makes a difference with how it effects your body or anything else: why would you lose heat faster in the same temperature just because one of the liquids freezes earlier?

Coldwater_Canuck

June 11th, 2009, 12:22 AM

People have died quite horribly after OOA problems on some of the deeper wrecks in Tobermory.

I own sealed cold water regs (Atomic M1s) but there's absolutely no way I'd be doing any 120'+ freezing cold dives without a fully redundant air source like doubles or a large pony.

Terry

I'm not sure I'd want to go that deep anywhere without a pony.

bleeb

June 11th, 2009, 12:41 AM

BTW, 38f fresh water is not the same as 38f salt water. It is the freezing temperature of the water that makes the biggest difference.

Okay you lost me, I know salt water doesn't freeze as easily, but I don't see why this makes a difference with how it effects your body or anything else: why would you lose heat faster in the same temperature just because one of the liquids freezes earlier?

I'm assuming the comment was specifically about how regulators free-flow more easily in fresh water than salt, especially second stages and non-environmentally sealed first stages freezing from the outside. It's not that heat transfer rates differ between salt and fresh water. It's the fact that it may be the surrounding water getting in there and actually doing the freezing and thereby triggering the free flow.

Seems to me that there was actually a thread a while back where people were describing how they weren't seeing free-flows in cold salt water, but some of the same equipment occasionally had issues in fresh water, even at roughly the same temperatures or even slightly warmer. Tobermory might even have been specifically mentioned. Unfortunately, I couldn't find that thread again. :(

Coldwater_Canuck

June 11th, 2009, 12:53 AM

I'm assuming the comment was specifically about how regulators free-flow more easily in fresh water than salt, especially second stages and non-environmentally sealed first stages freezing from the outside. It's not that heat transfer rates differ between salt and fresh water. It's the fact that it may be the surrounding water getting in there and actually doing the freezing and thereby triggering the free flow.

Seems to me that there was actually a thread a while back where people were describing how they weren't seeing free-flows in cold salt water, but some of the same equipment occasionally had issues in fresh water, even at roughly the same temperatures or even slightly warmer. Tobermory might even have been specifically mentioned. Unfortunately, I couldn't find that thread again. :(
Ah thanks, that makes more sense.

Looking back, I'm definitely glad I spent a little extra to get a sealed reg. I know that doesn't mean 100% I won't see a freeflow, but definitely better than not.

elan

June 11th, 2009, 01:05 AM

Well the thing is in the Caribbean they are usually leading the dive and all that. The divemasters I've seen on boats basically are just there to make sure nothing goes wrong. So it's a little different situation.

I think that it depends what they are actually doing. If they do help you, with your gear, you getting out of the water etc. I think it's a good thing to tip. On one of our charters at Oakville Divers the captain gave us coffee and donuts during SI at no extra charge, I know him for some time and he is always nice and helpful so I always give a tip.

Oh I'm not going to argue the merits of having a pony, and I plan to buy one myself once I return to Seattle. I think I just misinterpreted your original post as basically needing to have one.

But for this dive it will be close to the warmest part of the year, and I doubt I'll be going past around 80 feet or so, so it's probably not the worst possible conditions. But I agree with you overall.

Okay you lost me, I know salt water doesn't freeze as easily, but I don't see why this makes a difference with how it effects your body or anything else: why would you lose heat faster in the same temperature just because one of the liquids freezes earlier?

80 ft is still pretty deep. it's a general attitude here (at least I have seen it) if you go to past 50ft in close to 40F have a redundant air source.

I think what Greame was trying to say about the difference between salt and fresh is that the chances the reg would freeze are greater in the fresh water as the freezing point is higher. Even if your reg is sealed you still have a chance to have it freeze if you get moisture inside. And it can get inside pretty easy. Even if your air in the tank is 100% dry you can still get mist from the air. water from the valve etc. If you get another person on your reg you are cooling it down at least twice as fast so you get more chances to have it freeze.

elan

June 11th, 2009, 01:08 AM

Ah thanks, that makes more sense.

Looking back, I'm definitely glad I spent a little extra to get a sealed reg. I know that doesn't mean 100% I won't see a freeflow, but definitely better than not.

You are 100% right. I have seen what could have turned into a free flow it just 3 weeks ago on a second stage od Scuba Pro S600/MK17 It was just inappropriate second stage for that kind of conditions.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 11th, 2009, 12:31 PM

I think that it depends what they are actually doing. If they do help you, with your gear, you getting out of the water etc. I think it's a good thing to tip. On one of our charters at Oakville Divers the captain gave us coffee and donuts during SI at no extra charge, I know him for some time and he is always nice and helpful so I always give a tip.
True, I guess I kind of wish I knew what they were making (really this shouldn't be a factor, but it kind of is). Ah all this tipping drives me insane (not paying it, figuring it out, I wish they'd just build it into the price).

80 ft is still pretty deep. it's a general attitude here (at least I have seen it) if you go to past 50ft in close to 40F have a redundant air source.
I guess the question is what do you mean by "general attitude". I certainly don't think it's bad advice, but if it was that commonplace wouldn't it make sense for the dive shops to rent them? And what about OW classes going to 60 feet?

I think what Greame was trying to say about the difference between salt and fresh is that the chances the reg would freeze are greater in the fresh water as the freezing point is higher. Even if your reg is sealed you still have a chance to have it freeze if you get moisture inside. And it can get inside pretty easy. Even if your air in the tank is 100% dry you can still get mist from the air. water from the valve etc. If you get another person on your reg you are cooling it down at least twice as fast so you get more chances to have it freeze.
I looked it up and the difference is about 2 degrees, so if your regulator would freeze in 40 salt water, it would equivalently freeze in 42 fresh water: good thing to keep in mind but not a drastic difference either.

But I'll be extra vigilante in not doing things that are more likely to freeze it (purging, breathing too much at surface, long BCD bursts, etc.). Even though it doesn't sound like I'll hit water below 40, I guess those thermoclines can throw a wrench into the mix (the changes at depth will be the biggest difference for me: in Seattle you can dive any time of the year, basically any recreational depth you want, and you'll always be between 40 and 55. Diving to 100 feet means maybe 5 degrees difference. ) On the plus side the vis should be far better.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 11th, 2009, 12:35 PM

You are 100% right. I have seen what could have turned into a free flow it just 3 weeks ago on a second stage od Scuba Pro S600/MK17 It was just inappropriate second stage for that kind of conditions.
Huh? Isn't that a great reg?

CDNScubaMoose

June 11th, 2009, 12:51 PM

bleeb

June 11th, 2009, 03:16 PM

I looked it up and the difference is about 2 degrees, so if your regulator would freeze in 40 salt water, it would equivalently freeze in 42 fresh water: good thing to keep in mind but not a drastic difference either.

You want to be careful how literally you interpret that 2 degrees (sea water of 'normal' salinity.) One of the funny effects with salt water is brine concentration. Initially, it's not the salt and water that freezes, but just mostly the water. A little bit of the water freezes out, leaving most of the salt behind in the remaining liquid. So as more of the mixture is solidified, it's possible to get pockets of water of increasing saltiness and decreasing freezing point.

Now in a reg, I imagine the situation gets even more complicated, with different amounts of circulation at different places allowing some of that excess salt to be dumped back into the surrounding ocean, or droplets getting into 'air' parts of the reg, where they have the opportunity to completely freeze over with loosing salt, and how big a lump of ice (microscopic or not) it takes to be a problem.

BTW, I *think* that commonly referred to 2 degrees is Celsius and not Fahrenheit.

Enough scientific philosophizing for one afternoon. :D

elan

June 11th, 2009, 03:56 PM

Huh? Isn't that a great reg?

As it turned out that S600 us not appropriate for the temps below 40. One should use G250 instead

elan

June 11th, 2009, 04:06 PM

I guess the question is what do you mean by "general attitude". I certainly don't think it's bad advice, but if it was that commonplace wouldn't it make sense for the dive shops to rent them? And what about OW classes going to 60 feet?

Sorry for confusion by general attitude I mean that many people who have some experience would suggest you to have a redundant source. I have spoken to one charter early April (the water was around 40-41 in Ontario) and they told me they refuse those w/o either pony , H valve or doubles.

Honestly I have only seen OW classes done in 45F water at depth <30. If I were an instructor I would not have taken a new person to 60ft at < 40F. Way too dangerous and many things can go wrong.

I looked it up and the difference is about 2 degrees, so if your regulator would freeze in 40 salt water, it would equivalently freeze in 42 fresh water: good thing to keep in mind but not a drastic difference either.

But I'll be extra vigilante in not doing things that are more likely to freeze it (purging, breathing too much at surface, long BCD bursts, etc.).
This goes w/o saying. This is why you do not want your buddy on your octo in very cold water.

bleeb

June 11th, 2009, 04:13 PM

I have spoken to one charter early April (the water was around 40-41 in Ontario) and they told me they refuse those w/o either pony , H valve or doubles.

Out of curiosity, which charter? PM if you prefer. If you got any sense from them, is that this particular charter's general policy year-round, or is it specifically during certain times of year, or for certain depths. Thanks.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 11th, 2009, 04:50 PM

You want to be careful how literally you interpret that 2 degrees (sea water of 'normal' salinity.) One of the funny effects with salt water is brine concentration. Initially, it's not the salt and water that freezes, but just mostly the water. A little bit of the water freezes out, leaving most of the salt behind in the remaining liquid. So as more of the mixture is solidified, it's possible to get pockets of water of increasing saltiness and decreasing freezing point.

Now in a reg, I imagine the situation gets even more complicated, with different amounts of circulation at different places allowing some of that excess salt to be dumped back into the surrounding ocean, or droplets getting into 'air' parts of the reg, where they have the opportunity to completely freeze over with loosing salt, and how big a lump of ice (microscopic or not) it takes to be a problem.

BTW, I *think* that commonly referred to 2 degrees is Celsius and not Fahrenheit.

Enough scientific philosophizing for one afternoon. :D
Ya tough to know I guess if that does happen around the regs, honestly I don't understand regulator freezing enough.

And you're right about the -2 being Celsisus, dumb mistake by me.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 11th, 2009, 04:56 PM

As it turned out that S600 us not appropriate for the temps below 40. One should use G250 instead
Really? Hmm. Hopefully mine is okay since the manual specifically mentions ice diving.

Sorry for confusion by general attitude I mean that many people who have some experience would suggest you to have a redundant source. I have spoken to one charter early April (the water was around 40-41 in Ontario) and they told me they refuse those w/o either pony , H valve or doubles.
Well the reason I asked is I mean in Seattle it's generally known as a "good idea" to have a pony, but plenty of people dive without them. However, reading a few different people on here, it sounds like it may be a bit more critical here.

Honestly I have only seen OW classes done in 45F water at depth <30. If I were an instructor I would not have taken a new person to 60ft at < 40F. Way too dangerous and many things can go wrong.

I thought in OW they were supposed to take you down to 60 feet (maybe I just assumed this was a requirement though).

Coldwater_Canuck

June 11th, 2009, 05:02 PM

I've had the "pleasure" of my S600 freeflowing twice on the Arabia (both times right around 40 degrees). I have it on a MK25 first stage but in both cases it was the second stage that started to freeflow. I have since had my technician reduce the IP.

In the great lakes - its not if you will have a freeflow but rather when it will happen.
Hmm all these responses are starting to have some effect on me. Maybe I will put together small pony before I go. I eventually want to get a 30cf tank, but for the depths I'll be going to a 13cf should be okay (and if I want to upgrade when I start diving past 100, I would just need to spend $100 or so on a second tank, regulator would stay the same.

By the way, what did you do in those situations? We were taught how to breathe out of a freeflowing reg, but were never taught it in the context of if it happens in the middle of a dive where you're not near the surface. Because obviously when you were past 100, that freeflow won't get you to the surface. Even at 50 or other OW depths, I don't think a freeflow would get you to the surface. You could treat it as an OOA situation, but I'm not sure if you tried to take advantage of the air that was flowing or not.

elan

June 11th, 2009, 05:35 PM

Out of curiosity, which charter? PM if you prefer. If you got any sense from them, is that this particular charter's general policy year-round, or is it specifically during certain times of year, or for certain depths. Thanks.

It was the policy during those certain times, when the water was very cold 38-41. They just mentioned it for that time only.

elan

June 11th, 2009, 05:44 PM

By the way, what did you do in those situations? We were taught how to breathe out of a freeflowing reg, but were never taught it in the context of if it happens in the middle of a dive where you're not near the surface.
In our case it would have been enough, I have posted the case here

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/284324-first-incident-free-flow.html

The case with SP MK17/S600 was after that one. It was about to free flow once we passed, as I remember, 60ft mark. We have returned to 45' mark and symptoms went away so we just stayed at that depth.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 11th, 2009, 06:20 PM

In our case it would have been enough, I have posted the case here

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/284324-first-incident-free-flow.html

The case with SP MK17/S600 was after that one. It was about to free flow once we passed, as I remember, 60ft mark. We have returned to 45' mark and symptoms went away so we just stayed at that depth.

Interesting post, that sounds like more or less a good way to handle it: breathe out of freeflowing reg to get to your buddy, each get on seperate air sources and ascend to gether (I personally probably wouldn't have swam along the bottom, but you did have a lot of air I guess)

So what happened with his tank, did you just leave it on and it emptied or did the flow stop at some point? I do wonder how long a freeflowing tank would last, I wouldn't think too long, when I hold down the purge it seems to drop pretty quick (although I guess if you were able to reach your valve you could probably turn your tank on and off to make the air last longer).

By the way, I have the same regulator as you. Why were you using a Scubapro that other dive (and how did you know it was 'about to' freeflow)? And what reg did you get for your pony?

shoredivr

June 11th, 2009, 06:46 PM

FYI about water temps, check this for July. Diver's Den (http://www.diversden.ca/temperature.html)

Coldwater_Canuck

June 11th, 2009, 06:48 PM

FYI about water temps, check this for July. Diver's Den (http://www.diversden.ca/temperature.html)

I've seen that, but it doesn't seem to match up with what people in this thread have been saying. 50 on a deep dive isn't bad at all, hitting 40 is getting pretty chilly.

shoredivr

June 11th, 2009, 11:57 PM

from my logbook:

July 22/07 Forest City 47F, 118 ft.......Arabia 40F 108 ft

July 19/08 Forest City 40F 141ft........Niagara II 41F 83ft........Lighthouse 60F 66ft

CDNScubaMoose

June 12th, 2009, 07:24 AM

By the way, what did you do in those situations? We were taught how to breathe out of a freeflowing reg, but were never taught it in the context of if it happens in the middle of a dive where you're not near the surface. Because obviously when you were past 100, that freeflow won't get you to the surface. Even at 50 or other OW depths, I don't think a freeflow would get you to the surface. You could treat it as an OOA situation, but I'm not sure if you tried to take advantage of the air that was flowing or not.

Keep in mind - it was the 2nd stage that was freeflowing, not the first stage. Most courses simulate the 1st stage freeflow which typicially resemble a jacuzzi in the face. In my situation it was the 2nd stage that wouldn't quite "shut" so it was more of steady stream of bubbles. A 2nd stage freeflow can lead to a 1st stage freeflow since the gas is constantly going through the 1st stage which means it keeps getting colder until you freeze it up.

First time - I cranked down on the knob that you use to adjust the ease of breathing until it was at the hardest breathing setting, I was patient with my breathing to give everything a chance to "warm up" and then things were fine.

Second time - I was on my way back to the block (at the end of the dive) when it started to happen. I tried the same trick as before, it worked for about 20 seconds and started again. The dive was basically over so I started to ascend up the line with my buddy right beside me. I was also on doubles so if things got worse I could shut down the offending regulator. About 60' - above the thermocline, it quit on its own.

elan

June 12th, 2009, 10:21 AM

So what happened with his tank, did you just leave it on and it emptied or did the flow stop at some point? I do wonder how long a freeflowing tank would last, I wouldn't think too long, when I hold down the purge it seems to drop pretty quick (although I guess if you were able to reach your valve you could probably turn your tank on and off to make the air last longer).

The tank was less then half empty at the surface, we did not close his valve as it was much task loading at that level of experience that time. But yes it's possible to close the valve

By the way, I have the same regulator as you. Why were you using a Scubapro that other dive (and how did you know it was 'about to' freeflow)? And what reg did you get for your pony?

That was happening with my buddy's reg. I have Zeagles Flathead VI on both pony and main. He had oceanic which was not cold water when it freeflowed. He already had MK17/S600 but did not take it for the trip for some reason.
When going down at some point he started noticing that the reg was pushing air w/o control when he moved up it stopped. So if we would have got to our planned depth of 85 it would have started flowing.

He uses Sherwood Brut on his pony now.

elan

June 12th, 2009, 10:23 AM

About 60' - above the thermocline, it quit on its own.

So you got the same effect we have got that time with S600. Did you lower the IP after that case ? or what IP did you have ?

Coldwater_Canuck

June 12th, 2009, 01:36 PM

The tank was less then half empty at the surface, we did not close his valve as it was much task loading at that level of experience that time. But yes it's possible to close the valve

Only half empty? Did it stop freeflowing at some point?

That was happening with my buddy's reg. I have Zeagles Flathead VI on both pony and main. He had oceanic which was not cold water when it freeflowed. He already had MK17/S600 but did not take it for the trip for some reason.
Ah you actually bough a second Flathead? I'm leaning towards a Atmos Pro for the pony, also sealed and balanced (and adjustable second stage) but a fair bit cheaper (and I think lighter) than the Flathead.

When going down at some point he started noticing that the reg was pushing air w/o control when he moved up it stopped. So if we would have got to our planned depth of 85 it would have started flowing.
Good that it gave some sort of warning at least.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 12th, 2009, 01:39 PM

Keep in mind - it was the 2nd stage that was freeflowing, not the first stage. Most courses simulate the 1st stage freeflow which typicially resemble a jacuzzi in the face. In my situation it was the 2nd stage that wouldn't quite "shut" so it was more of steady stream of bubbles. A 2nd stage freeflow can lead to a 1st stage freeflow since the gas is constantly going through the 1st stage which means it keeps getting colder until you freeze it up.

First time - I cranked down on the knob that you use to adjust the ease of breathing until it was at the hardest breathing setting, I was patient with my breathing to give everything a chance to "warm up" and then things were fine.

Second time - I was on my way back to the block (at the end of the dive) when it started to happen. I tried the same trick as before, it worked for about 20 seconds and started again. The dive was basically over so I started to ascend up the line with my buddy right beside me. I was also on doubles so if things got worse I could shut down the offending regulator. About 60' - above the thermocline, it quit on its own.
Good to know

But with the first vs second stage freeflow, when you hit the purge my logic would think that would be simulating a second stage freeflow (since the first stage isn't touched at all, it's just the second letting all the air out). Why is it a second stage freeflow doesn't resemble a purge?

I also realize in this discussion I should really take an equipment course when I have a chance to know what's going on "under the covers" a little better.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 12th, 2009, 01:41 PM

from my logbook:

July 22/07 Forest City 47F, 118 ft.......Arabia 40F 108 ft

July 19/08 Forest City 40F 141ft........Niagara II 41F 83ft........Lighthouse 60F 66ft

That matches up more with what others were saying, not sure why Divers Den lists a July deep dive as only 50. In any case, I think I should be alright as long as I'm in the 40s. If I hit 30 something I'd start to get a little concerned (although the people in here are rubbing off on me a bit, I may expedite my pony purchase)

ScubaSteve

June 12th, 2009, 01:44 PM

So Coldwater Canuck....are you in Seattle or Southern Ontario?

Coldwater_Canuck

June 12th, 2009, 02:03 PM

So Coldwater Canuck....are you in Seattle or Southern Ontario?
Depends what sort of weather I feel like when I wake up :D

Seriously, right now I'm in Ontario (Waterloo to be exact) but then in a couple months I'll be back in Seattle, then back in Waterloo, then probably back in Seattle: at least I'm consistent.

ScubaSteve

June 12th, 2009, 02:46 PM

Yeah but you could not have picked a nicer diving area to go back and forth with? Seattle would likely be GREAT....but there is less to see here :shakehead

Coldwater_Canuck

June 12th, 2009, 03:33 PM

Yeah but you could not have picked a nicer diving area to go back and forth with? Seattle would likely be GREAT....but there is less to see here :shakehead
Ya I suppose Seattle <> Carribean would be a little bit nicer, but I really need to graduate.

And I don't know if you should call Seattle GREAT. There's a ton of water and plenty of good dive sites, but it's pretty cold, vis sucks, most spots are at least moderately current sensative. There's some interesting plants and critters, but nothing like dive photos I see from warm water spots. Not that I'm complaining, still fun diving, but I don't think it's somewhere you'd want to go out of your way to visit. I think if you go North towards Victoria though (San Juan Islands) there's supposed to be some really awesome diving, I'll need to get up there at some point.

elan

June 12th, 2009, 03:52 PM

Only half empty? Did it stop freeflowing at some point?

Ah you actually bough a second Flathead? I'm leaning towards a Atmos Pro for the pony, also sealed and balanced (and adjustable second stage) but a fair bit cheaper (and I think lighter) than the Flathead.

Yes I got it for a good price on sale when FH7 came out. I will eventually put them both on doubles so I decided to go with the same reg. I have tested it in 35F water before and I was happy with it, why experiment :)?

shoredivr

June 12th, 2009, 06:27 PM

I think if you go North towards Victoria though (San Juan Islands) there's supposed to be some really awesome diving, I'll need to get up there at some point.

Quadra Island life everywhere :thumb::thumb::thumb:

Senanus Island, cloud sponges :thumb::thumb::thumb:

*edit* a little ALu 30 would be good for a slung pony.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 12th, 2009, 06:37 PM

Yes I got it for a good price on sale when FH7 came out. I will eventually put them both on doubles so I decided to go with the same reg. I have tested it in 35F water before and I was happy with it, why experiment :)?
Ah I can definitely see your thinking there, especially if you eventually want to go doubles. The Flatheads are still a good price ($375) on Scubatoys, dropped another $25 since I bought mine.

I'm not really looking at doubles anytime soon (I don't really see an advantage for what I'm doing over getting a HP tank), so I'll probably just get something cheaper with good reliability.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 12th, 2009, 06:41 PM

Quadra Island life everywhere :thumb::thumb::thumb:

Senanus Island, cloud sponges :thumb::thumb::thumb:

I'll keep those in mind :D

*edit* a little ALu 30 would be good for a slung pony.
Well here's how I'm thinking, and tell me if I'm way off on this. I do want to get a 30 eventually when I do my deep diver cert, because I figure that's enough right to 130'

But it seems like a tank that big slung would be somewhat annoying (and take some practice to get used to diving with). On the other hand, a 13 cf is only about a foot high so I don't see it being nearly as much of an adjustment to dive with. While I'd never want to take a 13 down to 130', I think this would be more appropriate for dives to 70 or 80.

Pony tanks are pretty cheap, the expensive part is the regulator and PSI gauge. So if I had both a 13 and 30, I could choose one based on the dives I was doing.

Maybe I'm overestimating the learning curve to having a larger pony, but it seems to me like a 13 would be much more comfortable and easy to swim with.

elan

June 12th, 2009, 08:30 PM

In fact you do not really notice a 30cuf sling, I'm not sure how you want to put your 13 cuf bottle, most likely to the main tank so you will need to get the kit to connect it. I bought 30 cuf right away. You will most likely grow to those depths faster than you think.Why spend money again.

yes I found 375 bucks for a reg like FH VI is pretty nice. I bought my first one for 500 off season (in winter) a year and a half ago. They were going higher during season times as far as I remember.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 12th, 2009, 10:00 PM

In fact you do not really notice a 30cuf sling,
Really, when I see pictures of them they just look so huge. Is it you're used to it now, or even your first dive with it on you barely knew it was there?

I'm not sure how you want to put your 13 cuf bottle, most likely to the main tank so you will need to get the kit to connect it. I bought 30 cuf right away. You will most likely grow to those depths faster than you think.Why spend money again.
I was thinking to sling a 13, same basic idea just smaller. You're right that I will probably grow to those depths pretty quickly, but if days I knew I was only going to 60 feet, 30 cf is really overboard (although if you honestly don't really notice it, it may not matter).

yes I found 375 bucks for a reg like FH VI is pretty nice. I bought my first one for 500 off season (in winter) a year and a half ago. They were going higher during season times as far as I remember.
I lucked out so much in timing when I bought my BCD and reg. I was going to buy a package with crappier equipment, but then saw they were having a clearance sale on the old Ranger LTD models, grabbed one right away. Then a month or two later I was looking at regs, I was basically set on the cheaper 50D, but then all of a sudden I noticed the Flatheads dropped to $400, and grabbed one of those right away (surprisingly, the regs didn't sell out like the BCDs since you can still get the 6s)

shoredivr

June 13th, 2009, 11:55 AM

I do want to get a 30 eventually when I do my deep diver cert, because I figure that's enough right to 130'

But it seems like a tank that big slung would be somewhat annoying (and take some practice to get used to diving with).
[.....]
Maybe I'm overestimating the learning curve to having a larger pony, but it seems to me like a 13 would be much more comfortable and easy to swim with.

The yellow tank in my avatar pic is a 30. Elan is right, you hardly notice a slung 30 when you're diving. Based on SAC rates, as a bailout bottle, it is more useful than a smaller tank. If you do a search on pony tanks and SAC rates, you'll get way more info than you can read on choosing tank size. It makes more sense on the pocketbook also IMO than buying a 30 and a 13.......but then you're talking to someone who has a tank cupboard that's full....;)

*edit* the first couple of dives I was getting used to the 30, IIRC, then I went on to sling a 40, then an 80...each time there's the initial dive getting used to it, practicing unclipping it, clipping it back on, deploying the reg, re-deploying it, getting the muscle memory in place. I have my stage regs on 40 inch hoses so I can route them behind my neck and over the right shoulder more easily, and dive with the slung tank pressurized but turned off...there's oodles of pages of arguements for pony off or on when diving, my practice stems from tech diving principles where you want the gas in a stage tank to be there when you need it. It also means that you have the muscle memory to turn the tank on as you deploy the reg. Not a complicated thing but one needs to practice.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 13th, 2009, 04:32 PM

The yellow tank in my avatar pic is a 30. Elan is right, you hardly notice a slung 30 when you're diving. Based on SAC rates, as a bailout bottle, it is more useful than a smaller tank. If you do a search on pony tanks and SAC rates, you'll get way more info than you can read on choosing tank size. It makes more sense on the pocketbook also IMO than buying a 30 and a 13.......but then you're talking to someone who has a tank cupboard that's full....;)
I agree that a 30 is the appropriate size for a rec diver (an experienced diver could maybe get by with 19 if they can control their breathing rate well in an emergency). That should be enough for an emergency ascent from 130 feet. It's overkill for something under 100, but if you can't notice it, then I guess it doesn't really matter.

*edit* the first couple of dives I was getting used to the 30, IIRC, then I went on to sling a 40, then an 80...each time there's the initial dive getting used to it, practicing unclipping it, clipping it back on, deploying the reg, re-deploying it, getting the muscle memory in place. I have my stage regs on 40 inch hoses so I can route them behind my neck and over the right shoulder more easily, and dive with the slung tank pressurized but turned off...there's oodles of pages of arguements for pony off or on when diving, my practice stems from tech diving principles where you want the gas in a stage tank to be there when you need it. It also means that you have the muscle memory to turn the tank on as you deploy the reg. Not a complicated thing but one needs to practice.
Ya I'd probably start with it turned on just so that I don't have to worry about it (and in rec diving where it's really just an optional piece of safety equipment, if it freeflows or something while on, this isn't catastrophic, unlike a tech dive where you need that air). But in time I would like to get some practice with it so I could leave it off.

But why do you need to unclip it? And if you have a decent setup, wouldn't' "Deploying" the reg just mean pulling it towards you (assuming you have the hose under some fairly loose bungees or something similar)?

My bigger concern though right now, rather than getting good at using the pony, is is it a big adjustment just having it there at first? What I mean is while I've added plenty of accessories to my BCD, they've all been relatively small, biggest thing was a camera or flashlight. Is it a bit weird having a relatively large tank hooked to you or is it out of your way enough that you really don't notice it (at first)?

shoredivr

June 13th, 2009, 06:25 PM

Coldwater_Canuck

June 13th, 2009, 07:07 PM

Several reasons as to why unclip/reclip a tank underwater. For recreational use, it can make getting up a boat ladder easier if you can unclip it and hand it up. If you were donating a slung tank to an OOA buddy, they take the reg, then you can give them the tank. You might need to unclip the tank if you got entangled. Familiarity with equipment means being able to manipulate gear.
Makes sense. I'd think something like passing it off would be good to practice, although not necessary to dive with a pony (I see the advantage of making your buddy self sufficient again, but worst case you ascend together, as if you were buddy breathing: so you're no worse off).

For tech diving, you might be doing a dive where you have multiple stages and want a particular stage on top once you've finished with other tanks. If you're cave diving and coming out the same way you went in (remember some caves have multiple entrances) you'd stow the stage somewhere along the route and come back for it. Some wreck divers take stages off when penetrating wrecks, then reclip them on exit. There's probably more reasons but that's what I can think of now.

Yes, you deploy the reg by pulling it towards you from under the bungee. However I don't like having the hose dangling in front of me, and around the back of my neck it's streamlined. Hose routing probably has more relevance if you're using a stage bottle as part of a dive plan (eg, going to a higher mix of oxygen on a deco dive), rather than as a bailout bottle in a recreational backup plan scenario. But I like to dive the same set-up regardless of what type of dive I'm doing.

Man I don't know how you guys can do all this. Maybe I'll change my tune in a few years, but right now I just can't imagine going into the water with 5 bottles and all these decompression stops and everything. Must be pretty cool though.

When you're on the shore or boat, yes you notice the pony hanging there. The first time I jumped off a boat with the 30 it freeflowed from the impact with the water, that was amusing but easily fixed. (And another reason to keep it pressurized but turned off.)
haha ya I've seen that happen with just octos (not sure if it happened to me on a boat, I've definately had freeflows on the surface on shore): venturi switch makes a huge difference.

When you're underwater, however, it just sort of disappears, yes it's hanging there but it's pretty unobtrusive. I have read photographers here on SB saying they think it would get in the way of taking a photo, however they don't dive with a pony. On the other hand there are professional photographers who post on here that dive with a slung tank all the time and get great shots.

That's good. It seems to me like it would impact the use of your left arm, but it's tough to picture how it's going to hang underwater. In any case, I'm right handed so as long as my left hand can operate the inflator hose and such, it probably isn't a big deal.

I'm also a fan of having an SPG on the slung tank instead of one of those little pop-up guages; I can read the SPG easily underwater. Those pop-up buttons aren't so accurate to read IMO.
Sorry what do you mean having it "on the slung tank" as opposed to "pop-up buttons". The gauges I've seen have looked something like: Highland Mini Tech Pony Gauge reviews and discounts, XS Scuba (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=highlandminitechgauge)

Do you consider this something you read on the tank or a "pop-up"?

shoredivr

June 13th, 2009, 09:41 PM

That's good. It seems to me like it would impact the use of your left arm, but it's tough to picture how it's going to hang underwater. In any case, I'm right handed so as long as my left hand can operate the inflator hose and such, it probably isn't a big deal. When you're horizontal in the water, it hangs below you.

Sorry what do you mean having it "on the slung tank" as opposed to "pop-up buttons". The gauges I've seen have looked something like: Highland Mini Tech Pony Gauge reviews and discounts, XS Scuba (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=highlandminitechgauge)

Do you consider this something you read on the tank or a "pop-up"?

That's something you read on the tank....this is what my 40 looks like only it's yellow.
SCUBA Diving Equipment for Technical, Wreck and Cave Diving: Dive Rite, Inc - Product Catalog - Deluxe Hose Retainers (http://www.diverite.com/products/catalog/bands/stage/gm2050)
I have the SPG on a 6 inch hose like in this link, but the Highland Mini Gauge looks like you could read the numbers ok.

Pop-ups are just a white button that sticks up when the tank is full, and slowly goes down as you breathe the tank...you have to guess if it's half full, or 1/3 full, etc...not so accurate.

elan

June 13th, 2009, 09:52 PM

Really, when I see pictures of them they just look so huge. Is it you're used to it now, or even your first dive with it on you barely knew it was there?
First dive yes, I noticed, I needed to calibrate my weights. Now I add 3 lb more into the right pocket so it balances the bottle, and sling it to the side. Not much difference.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 13th, 2009, 10:02 PM

When you're horizontal in the water, it hangs below you.
Right, but it still seems it would prevent you from reaching across to some parts of your BCD or get in the way occasionally. Not a huge deal, just might take a little getting used to.

That's something you read on the tank....this is what my 40 looks like only it's yellow.
SCUBA Diving Equipment for Technical, Wreck and Cave Diving: Dive Rite, Inc - Product Catalog - Deluxe Hose Retainers (http://www.diverite.com/products/catalog/bands/stage/gm2050)
I have the SPG on a 6 inch hose like in this link, but the Highland Mini Gauge looks like you could read the numbers ok.

Pop-ups are just a white button that sticks up when the tank is full, and slowly goes down as you breathe the tank...you have to guess if it's half full, or 1/3 full, etc...not so accurate.
The little hose looks like a good idea just for the fact that you can position the tank how you want and not have to worry about your regs HP gauge pointing towards you. I'd never even seen or heard of the pop up buttons: doesn't seem like a great way to save a few bucks.

Also, any recommendations for what to buy for the elastic straps? That picture has some sort of DiveRite band or something.

---------

Anyways, I just got my BCD out of a storage unit it was in and I tried my MacGuiver skills by taping together some jumbo toilet paper roles and wrapping them in paper to be almost the exact size of a 30cf pony (obviously much lighter). It actually doesn't seem as bad as I thought it would, my left arm is a little impacted as I thought (as in I can't move it towards the center of my body as easily) but I can reach and adjust everything okay.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 13th, 2009, 10:04 PM

First dive yes, I noticed, I needed to calibrate my weights. Now I add 3 lb more into the right pocket so it balances the bottle, and sling it to the side. Not much difference.
I figured you'd need to add a few pounds just cus the bottle + reg is a few pounds negative. What happened when you didn't do this, did you roll towards your left?

shoredivr

June 13th, 2009, 10:40 PM

Also, any recommendations for what to buy for the elastic straps? That picture has some sort of DiveRite band or something.

I use bungee cord, tied 1/3 of the way from the top of the tank, run the bungee down the tank to 1/3 of the way from the bottom. I may have a pic somewhere if you're interested. I used to use inner tubes from trailer tires, cut into strips, but these can be hard to manipulate to restow the reg when wearing gloves. *edit* In the avatar pic, the middle ALu 80 and the yellow 30 on the bottom shelf were still set up with the inner tube method when I took the pic.

Anyways, I just got my BCD out of a storage unit it was in and I tried my MacGuiver skills by taping together some jumbo toilet paper roles and wrapping them in paper to be almost the exact size of a 30cf pony (obviously much lighter). It actually doesn't seem as bad as I thought it would, my left arm is a little impacted as I thought (as in I can't move it towards the center of my body as easily) but I can reach and adjust everything okay.

Great image of the toilet paper tank, sounds like something I'd do.:D

Try and have the sling strap just long enough that you can get your arm in between the tank and your body so you can access everything. I have dry gloves, so the space needs to be enough to get the dry glove rings through, too.

elan

June 14th, 2009, 12:04 AM

I figured you'd need to add a few pounds just cus the bottle + reg is a few pounds negative. What happened when you didn't do this, did you roll towards your left?

I figured out that if the bottle is full it's 4lb negative. I wear 20 lb w/o bottle and 16 with. If I do not compensate I feel being rolled to the left, I can stay horizontal but it's uncomfortable and I need to adjust my movements. Oce I move 3 lbs to the right pocket the balance is perfect.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 14th, 2009, 02:42 AM

I use bungee cord, tied 1/3 of the way from the top of the tank, run the bungee down the tank to 1/3 of the way from the bottom. I may have a pic somewhere if you're interested. I used to use inner tubes from trailer tires, cut into strips, but these can be hard to manipulate to restow the reg when wearing gloves. *edit* In the avatar pic, the middle ALu 80 and the yellow 30 on the bottom shelf were still set up with the inner tube method when I took the pic.

You run the bungee down the tank? Isn't the point to go around? But if you have a pic, please post it, I'd be interested to see. For the inner tube method, do you just like cut a piece of inner tube up and then use electrical take or something to hold it together

Great image of the toilet paper tank, sounds like something I'd do.:D

Haha well I was trying it with just paper and wasn't working so well, then I realized these 4x toilet paper roles are almost exactly the diameter of a tank and 5 stacked up are about as long. It fell apart later, but served its purpose.

Try and have the sling strap just long enough that you can get your arm in between the tank and your body so you can access everything. I have dry gloves, so the space needs to be enough to get the dry glove rings through, too.
Ya I noticed that, because while I can operate my gear with my right hind, there are some buckles and stuff that I need to let my left hand to get to

shoredivr

June 14th, 2009, 11:39 AM

Here's a stage tank setup I rigged for a rental ALu80 (I was on a business trip, brought my "travel" stage strap and bungee rigging and stage reg). You can see how the yellow bungee goes around the tank, runs down and around the tank again.

Inner tube strips are cut so that you have a ring of rubber that goes over the tank. The inner tube is empty, lying flat like a pizza. You cut from the outside of the tube straight through to the inside, sort of like slicing a pizza. The end result is a ring of black rubber, like a rubber band only much bigger, which you can see on the two tanks on the bottom shelf in this pic.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 14th, 2009, 03:42 PM

Here's a stage tank setup I rigged for a rental ALu80 (I was on a business trip, brought my "travel" stage strap and bungee rigging and stage reg). You can see how the yellow bungee goes around the tank, runs down and around the tank again.
Thanks for the pic. So that is all a single bungee with a couple knots tied in it? Do you just get a bungee like that at Home Depot or something or is it some sort of specialty thing (I normally don't see bungee cords that long and thin).

I take it that strap is one you bought, not put together yourself?

And is that just rope holding the gauge in place.

Inner tube strips are cut so that you have a ring of rubber that goes over the tank. The inner tube is empty, lying flat like a pizza. You cut from the outside of the tube straight through to the inside, sort of like slicing a pizza. The end result is a ring of black rubber, like a rubber band only much bigger, which you can see on the two tanks on the bottom shelf in this pic.
Oh so you need to find an inner tube that havs a similar diameter as the tank?

shoredivr

June 14th, 2009, 04:59 PM

Thanks for the pic. So that is all a single bungee with a couple knots tied in it? Do you just get a bungee like that at Home Depot or something or is it some sort of specialty thing (I normally don't see bungee cords that long and thin).

I take it that strap is one you bought, not put together yourself?

And is that just rope holding the gauge in place.

Oh so you need to find an inner tube that havs a similar diameter as the tank?

Yes, one piece of bungee....I got that online from DiveTech in Mallorytown, but you could find it in fabric stores, I think.....this stuff comes in lots of colours. If you're in Waterloo right now, you could drop in to Dean's Sport and Dive, they have some there, too. Deans Sport and Dive Kitcheners full service Scuba Store (http://www.deansdiving.ca/) When you're tying it, you have to get the tension on the bungee right, not too loose on the tank or the reg just falls out.

Tank strap bought, yes, plus a hose clamp. It's another thicker piece of bungee holding the gauge in place, but you could use cave line too.

Crappy Tire for the inner tube, it's a trailer wheel size tube - I think - I got two years ago, it is slightly tight on the tank.

Chruncharoo

June 14th, 2009, 09:06 PM

Well I tried to fire off a Pm to you, however it would appear that it doesn't want to go.

I'll be in toby on that weekend and would very much like to see those wrecks, or pretty much any wreck.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 15th, 2009, 01:51 AM

Yes, one piece of bungee....I got that online from DiveTech in Mallorytown, but you could find it in fabric stores, I think.....this stuff comes in lots of colours. If you're in Waterloo right now, you could drop in to Dean's Sport and Dive, they have some there, too. Deans Sport and Dive Kitcheners full service Scuba Store (http://www.deansdiving.ca/) When you're tying it, you have to get the tension on the bungee right, not too loose on the tank or the reg just falls out.

Tank strap bought, yes, plus a hose clamp. It's another thicker piece of bungee holding the gauge in place, but you could use cave line too.

Crappy Tire for the inner tube, it's a trailer wheel size tube - I think - I got two years ago, it is slightly tight on the tank.
Thanks for all the advice. I think I'll start buying the pieces then. First is a tank which I'll hopefully find for a decent price locally. Then I need to find a reg, Zeagle has 30% off a bunch of stuff so maybe I can get a 50D for a good price (or a Flathead 7 and use my current 6 for the pony).

CDNScubaMoose

June 15th, 2009, 07:30 AM

So you got the same effect we have got that time with S600. Did you lower the IP after that case ? or what IP did you have ?

The IP has been set lower for this season - it is at the low end of the reccommended range (125 psi - I think). On my wish list is a MK17 and G250 but so are a lot of other goodies so not sure if it will happen this year or next year.

Good to know

But with the first vs second stage freeflow, when you hit the purge my logic would think that would be simulating a second stage freeflow (since the first stage isn't touched at all, it's just the second letting all the air out). Why is it a second stage freeflow doesn't resemble a purge?

I also realize in this discussion I should really take an equipment course when I have a chance to know what's going on "under the covers" a little better.

With a first stage freeflow - it is your first stage regulator that freezes open so the air basically has a direct route from the tank, through the 1st stage, down your LP hose and out the 2nd stage. Its a pile of air coming at you in a short period of time and if you are able to keep you reg in your mouth, you look like a chipmunk. This is what is being simulated in your course when you completely depress the purge button - a pile of air/gas.

With a second stage freeflow, the 2nd stage doesn't completely close and a steady stream of air/gas continuous to pass through the 2nd stage. It is easy to keep your reg in your mouth and is more of an inconvience. Problem is the stream of air/gas is constant which means the 1st stage is constantly open a little bit and with air/gas constantly going through it the 1st stage continues to get colder until it freezes open - now you have a 1st stage freelow. So a 2nd stage freeflow can lead to a first stage freeflow which is why it important to realize one when it happens. My very first one about 4 years ago started like that and as I was trying to figure out "what that noise was" the extremely cold water was enough to freeze the first stage too.

ScubaSteve

June 15th, 2009, 07:49 AM

Well I tried to fire off a Pm to you, however it would appear that it doesn't want to go.

I'll be in toby on that weekend and would very much like to see those wrecks, or pretty much any wreck.

I know that ScubaBoard puts limitations on new accounts to help ensure they are not SPAM accounts. Try getting your post count up above 5 and then try the PM again. That may work but am not sure.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 15th, 2009, 08:17 AM

With a first stage freeflow - it is your first stage regulator that freezes open so the air basically has a direct route from the tank, through the 1st stage, down your LP hose and out the 2nd stage. Its a pile of air coming at you in a short period of time and if you are able to keep you reg in your mouth, you look like a chipmunk. This is what is being simulated in your course when you completely depress the purge button - a pile of air/gas.

With a second stage freeflow, the 2nd stage doesn't completely close and a steady stream of air/gas continuous to pass through the 2nd stage. It is easy to keep your reg in your mouth and is more of an inconvience. Problem is the stream of air/gas is constant which means the 1st stage is constantly open a little bit and with air/gas constantly going through it the 1st stage continues to get colder until it freezes open - now you have a 1st stage freelow. So a 2nd stage freeflow can lead to a first stage freeflow which is why it important to realize one when it happens. My very first one about 4 years ago started like that and as I was trying to figure out "what that noise was" the extremely cold water was enough to freeze the first stage too.
Oh I see, so if the second stage were to freeze COMPLETELY open (not sure if this is possible), it would for all purposes we the same thing as a first stage free-flow? (and hitting the purge is the same as a "complete" freeze.

So I guess the difference isn't in the first or second freezing itself, but rather that the first tends to freeze completely open while the second tends to freeze only partially open (*'tends to' may mean 'always')

Coldwater_Canuck

June 15th, 2009, 08:17 AM

I know that ScubaBoard puts limitations on new accounts to help ensure they are not SPAM accounts. Try getting your post count up above 5 and then try the PM again. That may work but am not sure.
His message actually did get to me, not sure why he got an error.

ScubaSteve

June 15th, 2009, 08:45 AM

Cool....I guess posting links is the only real limitation then.

CDNScubaMoose

June 16th, 2009, 06:11 PM

Oh I see, so if the second stage were to freeze COMPLETELY open (not sure if this is possible), it would for all purposes we the same thing as a first stage free-flow? (and hitting the purge is the same as a "complete" freeze.

So I guess the difference isn't in the first or second freezing itself, but rather that the first tends to freeze completely open while the second tends to freeze only partially open (*'tends to' may mean 'always')

I'm by no means a reg technician so if my rudimentary explanation is off the mark - please excuse me.

I'm not sure if "freezing wide open" happens on a first stage either. Perhaps a better way for me to explain this ... if your 2nd stage doesn't completely close (call it freezing open or whatever) then you have a direct line from the intermediate pressure to surrounding water (or your mouth). I believe that in most regs the IP is around 120-150 psi. A considerable amount of pressure but the IP is still being regulated by your first stage so I believe when you inhale your IP drops by a certain amount. So if your 2nd stage doesn't completely close then it is the difference between the IP that you will experience as your freeflow in terms of the volume of gas (the wider open that 2nd stage is ... the more volume that can pass through).

Whereas if your 1st freezes open the pressure differential is the 3000 psi (or whatever your tank is at - although likely higher then 150 psi) with a direct line to the surronding water. Now the 1st stage and tank opening can only allow a certain volume of gas to escape (due to the small openings) so the 3000 psi will reduce in pressure as it takes up the extra volume but it will still be a massive amount of gas coming at you. So if the 1st stage is fozen open even a little bit then a pile of gas can still get down the LP hose and through the 2nd stage. So when you completely depress the purge on your 2nd stage basically you are maximizing the volume of gas that can pass through the LP hose which is likely approaching what a first stage freeflow will give you.

Like I said - I'm not a reg technician but this is how I have managed to understand the difference in the types of freeflow situations that I have experienced.

Coldwater_Canuck

June 22nd, 2009, 05:26 PM

hollywooddiver

June 23rd, 2009, 12:57 AM

A good buddy took me there a few years back. A must if you live in Ontario.

shoredivr

June 24th, 2009, 11:15 AM

Well since you guys successfully scared me into getting a pony (just kidding, was going to get one anyways soon, just moved purchase date up a bit), how does this look?

Does it seem too low or anything like that?

(by the way, I haven't cut the rope yet, so it's just hanging off it now).

So far, so good. You want it to hang parallel to your body when you're horizontal in the water...it's harder to tell this when you're standing on dry land...but this looks good in the photo. Can you just get your arm in between the tank and your body?

Coldwater_Canuck

July 3rd, 2009, 11:09 PM

Just did Niagra II and Caves, overall very impressed.

Niagra II is just an awesome wreck, tons to see. Other than the wheelhouse and going about half-way down the smoke-stack, I didn't penetrate it at all, but there is still a lot to see on just the outside. I'd love to go back here again, especially once I'm qualified to enter the wreck: inside's supposed to be pretty cool.

Caves were kind of neat, but a bit of a novelty that wore off pretty quickly. I was expecting there to be more to the caves than just the one cylindrical area. I thought the entrances would feel more like tunnels. The big entrance doesn't feel that way at all, while there is an overhead, it didin't feel like you were entring a tunnel or anything. The small entrance was a bit tougher: my bouyancy and/or trim weren't quite good enough and I ended up pushing off the bottom a couple times. Inside there are some cool formations and stuff, but you can see the whole place in 10 minutes. Glad I went, but not much repeat value.

Overall, while the weather wasn't great, conditins were good. Vis was great (at least compared to what I know), although it was confusing when my computer said 25 feet and I could see the surface looking 3 feet away: I've never dove where you can see the surface from that deep. The water was a bit choppy, but I didn't notice any current. Deepest I went was about 75, coldest was 50. Overall, felt like fairly novice conditions.

I also tried the pony for the first time (I know the rule of thumb is try in a "safer" spot first, but this wasn't really an option and I figured risk vs reward I'd try it. You guys are definately right that it dissapears: it dissapeared a little too well: when I jumped in I swore my home-made rigging had fallen apart and my pony was dropping to the bottom of the lake :). Only time it was a concern is when close to the bottom or swimming through something (such as narrow cave entrance) since it hung down a fair bit making me feel less streamlined and creating an entanglement hazard, although I later got in the habit of grabbing the handle and pulling it to my side temporarily if it was going to get in the way

Overall, great dives, looking forward to San Jacinto tomorrow

PS. Freshwater has some definate advantages: lips not tasting like salt, not having to rinse gear with "fresh water", not needing as much weight.