Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[stevejaz]

Furthermore, it has not been established as to why she ended up with a personal DM. Was it the Wood's request, or was it required by the dive operation. If I have missed something here please let me know. To me, these two pieces of information are paramount in understanding what the hell happened here.

Dantheengineer stated that the personal DM was a last minute thing and the boat couldn't leave until she had one.

This would lead me to believe that she hadn't dove in 3 years, or in light of the recent info, she had health problems and they required the DM.

That said, if the later is true...holy crap! If I'm this person's buddy and had known this, first they wouldn't have dove, second, there is no way I would be more than 2 feet from them, much less 20'. I seriously doubt the dive op new about the stroke though. Could certainly explain some of the behavior though.

[Thalassamania]

...I agree, that's a bit excessively unfair to the DM, especially since apparently we're not dealing with a diver that casually drifted down an extra 20' but who was making a determined effort to dive deep and 'lose' the DM.....situational awareness requires the DM look about and survey the whole picture...terrain...currents.....etc.....not spend every last moment looking up someone *ss !Actually a competent DM should be able to "spend every last moment looking up someone *ss" and maintain SA.
...I'll bet you, that if I wanted to kill myself and stop you from 'saving' me, I could prevent you from ditching my weights to achieve my 'mission'......also, I've got a knife too.....I don't feel a DM is required to beat me in hand-to-hand combat in order to be considered a 'good' DM...I think that's asking a bit much, don't you think ?Where do these people get all this foolishness from? TRY READING THE THREAD! There is no doubt that you could embolize yourself, similarly there is not doubt even the weakest Instructor I've ever trained (I think I already said this?) could easily prevent you, Biggus Knifus and all, from descending.

I do think that I'm going to have to organize a Seppuku Specialty Course to test out all these folks, if you want the card ... you've got be dieing to get it.

[Dantheengineer]

I have a friend that knew Mrs. Wood. Reportedly, she had a mild stroke last month. If she were predisposed to this, a stroke at depth might explain her combativeness and anger. Not to mention the possible interactions of narcosis with the medication she was likely on due to a recent stroke.

I'd bet fearsome, sensible money that the med disclaimer reads constant "no's" and i KNOW coves fill'em in every time. (and never at gun point :D)

We are currently seeking information on the status of both Mr & Mrs Woods certs and history. Not that even these are anything like credible here.........
(Just further speculation)
(We also seek a copy of the actual incident report.........ooooh! and this weeks lottery numbers...)

Instant indications are that only instr 1. was on EANx (32-36% uncertain). Instr 2. was on air due to his deep course! (i should have guessed that!) 3. just breathed air. Conformation to follow........

Body language under water? 30 yrs as a commercial diver is nothing short of thoroughly impressive! I, frankly, envy you!! Have you spent some time with shark or larger pelagics in your dive vicinity? You recognize such "jerky" movements as a tell tail fairly soon on, i can tell you! In you're own species it's even easier. Anger and aggression when one's looking for it under water are more than just a facial expression. Honestly we'd need to open a whole new thread just to sufficiently analyze that alone!
Better yet, gimme a PM when you're free and we'll get over to Tiger Beach off, Freeport. From the recent report (Bahamas) i KNOW i'll learn sommat! i reckon you may too?

Buying safety? Mmmm... for my money the best investment is thinking ahead. I wouldn't hire a gunslinger to lead me around the O.K. Coral at high noon. I'd get bloody lessons in cover and concealment and go from there. "IF" these guys were new, "IF" these guys were rusty they needed training and education. This should have been picked up at registration IMO, far before the dive.........

Meg, seriously mate, post if you feel able again. Ignore the gob****e fools! We'll shout them down if needs be. Many of us just wish to sincerely know how to avoid being in your position. You seem like a genuine chap, just tell us like it is......
Again i'd say that your resolve and courage in the face of nit picking mofo's is admirable. Please, if you feel able, tell us what you actually saw?

Onlyhalcyon, come on mate. I'd have driven you home if i'd only known..............

[scubafanatic]

All due respect...but

I'd say this is definitely a bit biased as you are obviously close with this outfit and the people who work there.

First, if this was a last minute procurment of the DM before the boat could leave, I'm guessing thats because when everyone was being signed in on that boat she was discovered to have not dived for more than 3 years and should have had a refresher. I say this because when I was there, the DM on our boat (short fiesty gal whom I can't remember her name) asked this of a diver and when she discovered he hadn't dove in 3 years, kicked him off for the refresher in the pool. He was then ferried out to join the group on the second dive.

Second, at this dive site, they don't moor that close to the wall, getting there is no accident and this was the first dive. So even if they were doing an impromptu refresher, it shouldn't have been on the edge of a 6000' wall with a 20' seperation.

So while I'm not criticizing anyone, this operation is not the holier than though operation you're painting it to be. They have both good and bad DM's/personel as I've experienced personally. They also see all types as you have mentioned, but this is no excuse, it's just part of doing business with the general public.

So again, I'm not criticizing you and value your posts, but I do think they are a bit biased as are mine due to previous experience no matter how unbiased I try to make them.

P.S. I sure hope Mr. Wood (or family members) doesn't read this given some of the speculation of the unmentionable.

Steve

...it's hard to believe I have to point out something this incredibly obvious, but here goes....the 6000' wall isn't a smooth vertical sheet of slick glass with a repulsive magnetic field pushing a diver's metal tank away.......it's covered by outcrops/coral and EASY to fin over to and grab (barring a strong current pushing one away from the wall...which hasn't benn mentioned as a factor in this story.) ...exactly how brain-dead does a diver have to be to not consider finning over to the wall and holding on ???

[Web Monkey]

...I'll bet you, that if I wanted to kill myself and stop you from 'saving' me, I could prevent you from ditching my weights to achieve my 'mission'......also, I've got a knife too.....I don't feel a DM is required to beat me in hand-to-hand combat in order to be considered a 'good' DM...I think that's asking a bit much, don't you think ?

Properly equipped and trained, a 18 year old 100 pound girl could drag pretty much anybody back to the surface. It requires only proper positioning, a reasonable BC and no more hand strength than is required to carry a tank on land.

However there was no indication of attempted suicide here.

Terry

[stevejaz]

I'd bet fearsome, sensible money that the med disclaimer reads constant "no's" and i KNOW coves fill'em in every time. (and never at gun point :D)

We are currently seeking information on the status of both Mr & Mrs Woods certs and history. Not that even these are anything like credible here.........
(Just further speculation)
(We also seek a copy of the actual incident report.........ooooh! and this weeks lottery numbers...)



Dan, what's your affiliation and who's this mysterious WE. Are you speaking from the perspective of the board? Run another dive charter????

Oh and I'll agree, they do always require you to fill in the med history as they hand it to you the minute you board the shuttle or at sign in if you provide your own transport.

[DandyDon]

I have a friend that knew Mrs. Wood. Reportedly, she had a mild stroke last month. If she were predisposed to this, a stroke at depth might explain her inability or unwillingness to comply with the DM's instruction to ascend, which turned to combativeness and anger. Not to mention the possible interactions of narcosis with the medication she was likely on due to a recent stroke.
:shocked2:
...wasn't this a wall dive ??? H*ll, if bouyancy is lost or a diver panics and for whatever reason can't figure what to do to recover bouyancy, the natural survival instinct would be to fin over the the wall and grab something to keep from dropping further...then claw back up the wall...the apparent absence of such a survival instinct is mind boggling for anyone actually wanting to live !
You ever been severely narced? It's sneaky. I enjoy it too much. Keep telling myself that I am diving drunk, no matter how much like Aquaman I feel.

[LeadTurn_SD]

...I do think that I'm going to have to organize a Seppuku Specialty Course to test out all these folks, if you want the card ... you've got be dieing to get it.

:rofl3:

Ummm, Thal, can I just do the PADI online version please? And still get the cool card and T-shirt? This is one course that I might prefer to do "virtually"... :D

Heck of a side track this thread took.... ok, if the Navy SEALs, Delta, and other high testosterone knife-waving, "you-couldn't-drop-my-weight's-if'n-I-don't-let-ya" divers are done.... (just kidding ;) )....

Did anyone notice the post that mentioned that she may have been diving after a very recent mild stroke?

Interesting twist if true.

Best wishes.

Edit: Oooops, several folks did see it, my bad.

[Katamuki]

Naw, it's no boast ... I promise, in your case, to lose. Care to come try?

Thal, I really enjoy your "tell it like it is" attitude in your posts but this isnt about the size of your SMB versus the other guys, it is? :shakehead:

[stevejaz]

...it's hard to believe I have to point out something this incredibly obvious, but here goes....the 6000' wall isn't a smooth vertical sheet of slick glass with a repulsive magnetic field pushing a diver's metal tank away.......it's covered by outcrops/coral and EASY to fin over to and grab (barring a strong current pushing one away from the wall...which hasn't benn mentioned as a factor in this story.) ...exactly how brain-dead does a diver have to be to not consider finning over to the wall and holding on ???

Nooooo, what I meant was they are moored over a 35' deep area with a hard bottom. Getting to the wall is a swim in that same 35' deep water, and consequently you are right, they would most likely decend down that wall once they arrived and be able to grab on at any point. I'm not arguing that, actually I agree.

[scubafanatic]

As a relative new OW diver I have done this with different rental gear by accident but not at depth's of more than 60'. If you were suffering from narcosis would you be able to read your depth guage and or know if you were ascending or descending at that depth?
And by the way, it is my personal opinion that I am responsible for me and being close to my buddy. I don't expect my buddy to be looking around for me every single minute (and a minute is a long time down there!).

But if someone in charge of the operation, insisted that because of my inexperience I needed a DM (not me because I'm too cautious) but figurately speaking "I" may be annoyed that I couldn't dive with my husband and his buddy. I may have PMT and be ticked off and then I may have had narcosis and had mental issues due to hormones etc....well anything is possible, there are lots of ifs and lots of variables.

In December I went on my first boat dive in the gulf with my husband and he had to try to rescue a girl who was drowning at the surface as she was spitting out her reg and holding onto the anchor line. My DH is not an advanced diver. This made me panic and I start swallowing a lot of water because the rough seas were knocking my reg out and I was trying to hold onto the line and wait for my husband to descend. The currents on the surface were a bit strong. When my husband was relieved by the DM who gained control of the girl, he got me down where I was seasick in my reg. I continued my dive. My DH kept saying why didn't I go down. I said later I was scared of the current and unsure of the viz and if I would ever find him. We kept our dive short due to the fact that we were worried about the girl and of course we didn't do a second dive...... but sorry I'm off topic:no:

Anyway from a newb's perspective.....

...narc'ed or not....the obvious 'clue' that one is decending...without needing to read depth guages or even needing a visual reference at all, is having to clear one's ears very frequently....let's call that 'clue # 1' ......

[Web Monkey]

situational awareness requires the DM look about and survey the whole picture...terrain...currents.....etc.....not spend every last moment looking up someone *ss !

Actually, that's is the job. If you hire a DM as a "buddy" you are their primary responsibility. Doing it right requires knowing exactly where you are 100% of the time.

This would be yet another case of "are you getting what you think you're paying for?" (very similar to another thread here)

Terry

[Dantheengineer]

Dan, what's your affiliation and who's this mysterious WE. Are you speaking from the perspective of the board? Run another dive charter????

Oh and I'll agree, they do always require you to fill in the med history as they hand it to you the minute you board the shuttle or at sign in if you provide your own transport.

Nope just me. No affiliation at all. i just got lucky enough to find construction work here and kinda fell in love with diving right after. (Mmmm...? 3 years ago?)
I studied PADI DM with Coves (over may be 8 months? also AOW, EFR and Rescue D) and saw much things.....

I dont normally feel obliged to answer/justify myself in the open so for further clarification please PM me.
You seem like a reasonable and descent chap so please understand "We" is the folk that dont feel able to post for fear of their jobs. They (the "We") are my friends. In a bar fight...many here would already be looking down the end of my unfinished but broken beer bottle. (or ofcourse watching the police and paramedics scoop my entrails into the nearest ambulance......)

Either my posts are credible or not. You'll accept them or i am a troll. This is you choice, i'd urge you to PM me for further details for i am what i claim to be. And not all that clever for that, Over educated isn't an adjective that those of the west encounter, perhaps you'll google it.

[Dantheengineer]

Also Steve, for record (and i know it now looks like i'm affronted by your posts. I'm really not) The last time i was at Tunnel wall (may be a month ago, no more) we anchored in wind with about 200' of line and hung over the wall. With a decent easterly it's easy to do. I've been there many times before and not experienced this.
The captains response at the time (actually the same captain as in this incident) was to move to another site. There seems to be a "folk law" that American divers, "drop until they hit." i and my buddy talked him into staying, (with hind sight thankfully....) without incident. (Dropping until hit would take a while....6000' and all)

This site is not for resort divers. I can only think that we'll be better placed to dissect (sadly) IF i can get the dive history of those involved in the incident....

[Doc Intrepid]

Funny, this exact same conversation is occuring elsewhere as well, starting here:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4470990-post62.htmlРурююю

"Great minds think alike...?"

aw never mind...

:D

[Dantheengineer]

I believe the English folk law is that "great minds think alike, but fools seldom different...."

I'll naturally stand corrected in time..........

[fisheyeview]

Dan,

I am trying to figure out your sig line. Does it say, "Bahamas...throw out the pirates...bring back the *****s"?

[jayjoans]

I believe the English folk law

I think you mean folklore, right?

[stevejaz]

:DNope just me. No affiliation at all. i just got lucky enough to find construction work here and kinda fell in love with diving right after. (Mmmm...? 3 years ago?)
I studied PADI DM with Coves (over may be 8 months? also AOW, EFR and Rescue D) and saw much things.....

OH, do tell:eyebrow:

I dont normally feel obliged to answer/justify myself in the open so for further clarification please PM me.

You seem like a reasonable and descent chap so please understand "We" is the folk that dont feel able to post for fear of their jobs. They (the "We") are my friends. In a bar fight...many here would already be looking down the end of my unfinished but broken beer bottle. (or ofcourse watching the police and paramedics scoop my entrails into the nearest ambulance......)

Fair enough and as I said...WE :crafty: appreciate it.

Either my posts are credible or not. You'll accept them or i am a troll. This is you choice, i'd urge you to PM me for further details for i am what i claim to be. And not all that clever for that, Over educated isn't an adjective that those of the west encounter, perhaps you'll google it.

No, no, no, that's not what I'm getting at...sheesh, always assuming the worst:eyebrow:

You could be with a dive shop that has access to dive cert info, maybe your wife works for SC...just asking...curious minds want to know
.

Steve

[Belmont]

Anyone here knows if her body can come up from that depth?
You know, internal bacterial gas expansion?
They found corpses in the Atlantic from the Airbus crash.

[DandyDon]

...narc'ed or not....the obvious 'clue' that one is decending...without needing to read depth guages or even needing a visual reference at all, is having to clear one's ears very frequently....let's call that 'clue # 1' ......
I don't know your dive experiences as you seem to have skipped putting those in your profile and I don't try to remember many details about many members here, mostly because I don't trust my memory - but once I get down to 100 ft, I don't have to clear my ears. The changes below that are gradual enough that it happens easily - and I have been deeper than I should have once, narced, no problem, just loving the mellow feeling - but also thinking that I know I'm narced and maybe stupid. I was thinking how much fun it'd be to go even deeper but heard a rapping sound and avoided that mistake.
Anyone here knows if her body can come up from that depth?
You know, internal bacterial gas expansion?
They found corpses in the Atlantic from the Airbus crash.
Kinda doubt it. Those bodies were not weighted with dive lead. Depending on how much lead she was wearing and how cool the water is where she may have landed, there may never be a spontaneous surfacing. Even the positive buoyancy of neoprene if she wore any or a drained tank if she sucked it down could be offset by the increased atmospheres.

Excerpting...
They (the "We") are my friends. In a bar fight...many here would already be looking down the end of my unfinished but broken beer bottle. (or ofcourse watching the police and paramedics scoop my entrails into the nearest ambulance......)

Either my posts are credible or not. You'll accept them or i am a troll. This is you choice, i'd urge you to PM me for further details for i am what i claim to be. And not all that clever for that, Over educated isn't an adjective that those of the west encounter, perhaps you'll google it.
Thanks for explaining. Your use of the Royal We was confusing. Since you do seem to be in the know: Was Mrs.W a certified and recently experienced diver, or was she required to have a personal DM because she wasn't? They as been so very much talk here than I may have missed that clarification.

[Dantheengineer]

Don, i'm still awaiting some clarification on that myself.......
if i get it, you shall also.

Yes folk lore. speak a language for 2000 years. it tends to mutate. look up Doherty, my last name it's actually several, if you really wanna count...........ever since nialle of the nine hostages back in '405ad.

And yes it's pirates expelled, commerce restored. Make of it what you will.
Better than that come here and dive with me? Thal wont even be able to save ya!!!

:inquisition:

[widget]

...wasn't this a wall dive ??? H*ll, if bouyancy is lost or a diver panics and for whatever reason can't figure what to do to recover bouyancy, the natural survival instinct would be to fin over the the wall and grab something to keep from dropping further...then claw back up the wall...the apparent absence of such a survival instinct is mind boggling for anyone actually wanting to live !

Absolutely agree, as I said previously, from accounts here it appears the lady was very much in control of her equipment.

She purposely vented her BC from a shoulder dump ( this discounts the theory she was confused by the inflate and deflate buttons) she made no attempt to stop her freefall by heading to the wall, nowhere dos it say she was panicked or stressed to the point she was out of control - and this is easy to see, flailing arms, circular paddeling motion of the legs, panting rapid breathing with massive exhaust emmisions, wide eyes, possible discarding of equipment like masks, - none of this is noted, its very odd indeed, if these actions were present, surely this is the first thing that would be noted by the DM, or other divers especially her husband, yet its not reported.!

Aggression and anger is not a normal "narced" response, and medication would dim the ability to respond normally (use the BC) as she appears to do.

In my opinion, from the reports available she acted like she was fully in control of her equipment and was thinking rationally, or something in the reports dos'nt add up.

[Riger]

Many [-](most)[/-] BCD's release air from the shoulder when the inflator hose is pulled downward.

Is it possible that whilst the DM was inflating the BCD, Mrs Wood was pulling away from her, thus activating the shoulder dump valve.

If this is possible, then the reaction of Mrs Wood may have been misinterpreted.

Best Regards

Richard

Edited for accuracy

[LeadTurn_SD]

Many (most) BCD's release air from the shoulder when the inflator hose is pulled downward.

Is it possible that whilst the DM was inflating the BCD, Mrs Wood was pulling away from her, thus activating the shoulder dump valve.

If this is possible, then the reaction of Mrs Wood may have been misinterpreted.

Best Regards

Richard

Hi Richard,

The way I read the description, it sound like the victim intentionally vented by pulling on the dump.

Whether the inflator had a pull-dump was not clear to me... your are right that many BC's do have the pull dump, but certainly not all, and I'm not even sure if "most" do (none of the seven we have in our family do...). I really don't know what percentage of BC's do or don't.

Best wishes.

[Riger]

Hi Richard,

I really don't know what percentage of BC's do or don't.

Best wishes.

Interesting, I wonder if it is a generational thing that modern BCD's more often have.

Wording changed in original text to improve accuracy.

Regards

Richard

[ItsBruce]

There is one thing I have not seen mentioned that really concerns me.

As I read the thread, the DM made contact at about 140 fsw, but did not take strong action to control the victim. People have talked about narcosis in the victim. What about narcosis in the DM?

That could explain why the DM didn't ditch weight or grab the tank valve and inflate her own BCD. DMs have specialized training. DMs have special responsibilities. But, DMs are not immune to narcosis. ... Or at least I don't think so.

[widget]

Many [-](most)[/-] BCD's release air from the shoulder when the inflator hose is pulled downward.

Is it possible that whilst the DM was inflating the BCD, Mrs Wood was pulling away from her, thus activating the shoulder dump valve.

If this is possible, then the reaction of Mrs Wood may have been misinterpreted.

Best Regards

Richard

Edited for accuracy

I guess we could look for explanations for anything, but although its probably possible, I would say its rather unlikely. The release of air would be jerky and sporadic,certainly more air would be going in than coming out, especially if the DM had hold of the victim and was moving with her, as I assume was the case, seen as reports claims she was physically fought off.

To vent the air (as we see from the report) the lady would have had to have control of the inflator head and either pulled it downward, raised it above her head, or used the alternate opposite shoulder dump if the BC had one - ALL three actions require a concious rational line of thought - stressed, panicked and narc'ed divers usually do not follow rational thought patterns.

[widget]

Body language under water? 30 yrs as a commercial diver is nothing short of thoroughly impressive! I, frankly, envy you!! Have you spent some time with shark or larger pelagics in your dive vicinity? You recognize such "jerky" movements as a tell tail fairly soon on, i can tell you! In you're own species it's even easier. Anger and aggression when one's looking for it under water are more than just a facial expression. Honestly we'd need to open a whole new thread just to sufficiently analyze that alone!Better yet, gimme a PM when you're free and we'll get over to Tiger Beach off, Freeport. From the recent report (Bahamas) i KNOW i'll learn sommat! i reckon you may too?

..............

I think you misunderstood my original post.

The report said "she exhibited signs of aggressive body language and anger" What I meant was, "what signs of aggression and anger did she exhibit"?

Did she show point or wave a finger, flip a bird, wave a fist around, - if she did, these are signs of a diver in control of themselves, not of a diver in a state of panic or undue stress.

I could be seething inside, yet you wouldnt know it unless I exhibited a sign which allowed you to recognise it, pushing the DM away is a fairly good sign of "controlled aggression and anger", ripping the DM'S mask off, pulling her demand valve from her mouth and then pushing her away / grabbing on to her etc are signs of uncontrolled aggression / stress / panic - It dos not appear this happened.

Have I see / dived with large predators,........................I dont make my living in Disneyworld mate, this is the real world.;)

[DocIndyDiver]

A narced DM is a good point. This may have been the deepest she's ever been. This incident is good example of why all pros on a "bottomless" dive need to be on air vs. nitrox, in case a deep rescue is necessitated.

[Web Monkey]

That could explain why the DM didn't ditch weight or grab the tank valve and inflate her own BCD. DMs have specialized training. DMs have special responsibilities. But, DMs are not immune to narcosis. ... Or at least I don't think so.

Nobody is immune to narcosis, however if you go in with a simple task like "grab the diver, go up", you would need to be really narced (way more than 140' worth) to not be able to pull that off.

There's something "not-right" here on both sides. The victim was resisting rescue, which could be anything from suicide to stroke to inexperience (if I pull this knob something happens). The DM's actions are even weirder, since she apparently made it all the way down and had physical contact with the victim then left.

Unfortunately I don't think we'll ever get the whole story from either.

Terry

[stevejaz]

Many [-](most)[/-] BCD's release air from the shoulder when the inflator hose is pulled downward.

Is it possible that whilst the DM was inflating the BCD, Mrs Wood was pulling away from her, thus activating the shoulder dump valve.

If this is possible, then the reaction of Mrs Wood may have been misinterpreted.

Best Regards

Richard

Edited for accuracy


If she was wearing SC's rental gear, none of the BC's I saw had this feature. They were all basic, inexpensive, BCDs.

Aren't we talking about a 68 yr. old woman here. There could be a lot of things. The recent possible stroke was mentioned, alzheimers (sp?)...those people are often combative and paranoid, medications.....

[fisheyeview]

A person having a stroke can become combative as well. Strokes can change personallities.

[Rick Murchison]

Thread closed for cleanup

Re-opening thread... please keep in mind that this is the Accidents and Incidents forum, not the pub, and that special rules apply.

The purpose of this forum is the promotion of safe diving through the examination and discussion of accidents and incidents; to find lessons we can apply to our own diving.
Accidents, and incidents that could easily have become accidents, can often be used to illustrate actions that lead to injury or death, and their discussion is essential to building lessons learned from which improved safety can flow. To foster the free exchange of information valuable to this process, the "manners" in this forum are much more tightly controlled than elsewhere on the board. In addition to the TOS:

(1) You may not release any names here, until after the names have appeared in the public domain (articles, news reports, sherrif's report etc.) The releasing report must be cited. Until such public release, the only name you may use in this forum is your own.
(2) No flaming, name calling or otherwise attacking other posters. You may attack ideas; you may not attack people.
(3) No trolling; no blamestorming. Mishap analysis does not lay blame, it finds causes.
(4) No "condolences to the family" here
(5) If you are presenting information from a source other than your own eyes and ears, cite the source.
(6) If your post is your hypothesis, theory, or a "possible scenario," identify it as such.

Thank you for your cooperation.
Rick

[Thalassamania]

If the BC did not have a shoulder dump (maybe even if it did), perhaps there was an equipment failure at the elbow (of all the failures, one of the more common) and it was leaking air.

[LeadTurn_SD]

A person having a stroke can become combative as well. Strokes can change personallities.

Agreed. If it is true that she had recently suffered a mild stroke, and had a 2nd episode while diving, that could certainly explain the apparent abnormal / combative behavior.

And it is extremely disturbing information (if true) because she should have known better than to dive, and her husband should absolutely have known better as well.

Best wishes.

[fisheyeview]

ABout 50% of all stroke victims suffer from depression afterward. The chance of suicide increases after a stroke, and is also higher in female stroke survivors.

[DiveConcierge]

My guess is either rapture of the deep or a suicide attempt. Either way, you hate to hear of a diver getting hurt- especially when there are so many others involved that will be in mental anguish for quite some time.. My thoughts and prayers are with everyone involved. Doesn't look good for a recovery, either. If it was suicide, I hope she is at peace now.. It is a permanent solution to a temporary problem...

[InTheDrink]

A further comment on the DM.

If the deceased diver did indeed deliberately descend with the intention of self-injury (just an assumption), isn't that fairly mitigating for the DM in that it is not a situation that would be normally trained for and the surprise of it alone could be disorientating. Add narcosis, the pure shock of the event and I'm less surprised the first thing she did on the boat was send a text. She would have known the diver was never coming back. I can imagine it would be a different feeling to having lost a diver in a normal emergency.

I'm way outside my pay grade here, but talking someone down from killing themselves would seem a very different skill than saving someone who is having a 'normal' accident.

We may never know what happened in this particular incident but perhaps another thread on what you should do with someone hell bent on intentional self harm under water might be interesting. It might throw up some interesting questions as to the contract between the diver and the DM. Is the contract (currently notionary in my head) that the DM will do what they can to assist in the event of an emergency? Would that preclude an intentional emergency? Should you place yourself at risk in this scenario?

I'd be keen to hear in more detail exactly the type of aggressive behaviours she displayed. It does all seem to point to either suicide or some kind of severe cerebral impairment likely as a result of the recent alleged stroke.

[Thalassamania]

A further comment on the DM.

If the deceased diver did indeed deliberately descend with the intention of self-injury (just an assumption), isn't that fairly mitigating for the DM in that it is not a situation that would be normally trained for and the surprise of it alone could be disorientating. Add narcosis, the pure shock of the event and I'm less surprised the first thing she did on the boat was send a text. She would have known the diver was never coming back. I can imagine it would be a different feeling to having lost a diver in a normal emergency.
Since the reaction required of the DM (grab victim's tank valve and establish positive buoyancy) does not change, I see little or no "mitigation" from speculating as to motive.

I'm way outside my pay grade here, but talking someone down from killing themselves would seem a very different skill than saving someone who is having a 'normal' accident.
No, you have to grab victim's tank valve and establish positive buoyancy in either case.

We may never know what happened in this particular incident but perhaps another thread on what you should do with someone hell bent on intentional self harm under water might be interesting. It might throw up some interesting questions as to the contract between the diver and the DM. Is the contract (currently notionary in my head) that the DM will do what they can to assist in the event of an emergency? Would that preclude an intentional emergency? Should you place yourself at risk in this scenario?
An interesting question, in a solely academic sense, but irrelevant here since the DM appears to have simply failed to perform. If the victim had been waiving a knife or pointing a speargun, that would be different, but generalized struggling does not excuse the lack of effective response.

I'd be keen to hear in more detail exactly the type of aggressive behaviours she displayed. It does all seem to point to either suicide or some kind of severe cerebral impairment likely as a result of the recent alleged stroke.Yes.

[stevejaz]

We may never know what happened in this particular incident but perhaps another thread on what you should do with someone hell bent on intentional self harm under water might be interesting. It might throw up some interesting questions as to the contract between the diver and the DM. Is the contract (currently notionary in my head) that the DM will do what they can to assist in the event of an emergency? Would that preclude an intentional emergency? Should you place yourself at risk in this scenario?

I'd be keen to hear in more detail exactly the type of aggressive behaviours she displayed. It does all seem to point to either suicide or some kind of severe cerebral impairment likely as a result of the recent alleged stroke.

Since we are clearly speaking in the hypothetical and it may or may not relate to this case...my response...

Personally speaking, much of what I do, type, say, is with the consideration of how I will feel about it after the event or atleast I try to conduct myself in that manner.

Thus, in this case, if someone were trying to self harm, they are clearly in need of help. No different than somebody standing on the edge of a bridge, am I just going to drive by? I think not as I doubt most of you would. Once the jumper has made the leap, I'm certainly not going to follow as there's nothing more I can do. It's a bit different in this case because that point of no return varies for all of us due to experience, training, and personal liability and by that I mean the amount of anguish one would feel after the event, not fear of a lawsuit. However, this DM according to the facts we have now, did try to intercept, notified another instructor, and presumably kept up the intervention until they felt they had reached the "point of no return". Conduct of the DM prior to that critical juncture is up for debate but again there are still many questions unanswered.

Just my .02

[InTheDrink]

Thanks Thal, interesting insights.

I take your point that the solution irrespective of diver mental aspect is the same (grab them by their valve and head on up).

[InTheDrink]

Since we are clearly speaking in the hypothetical and it may or may not relate to this case...my response...

Personally speaking, much of what I do, type, say, is with the consideration of how I will feel about it after the event or atleast I try to conduct myself in that manner.

Thus, in this case, if someone were trying to self harm, they are clearly in need of help. No different than somebody standing on the edge of a bridge, am I just going to drive by? I think not as I doubt most of you would. Once the jumper has made the leap, I'm certainly not going to follow as there's nothing more I can do. It's a bit different in this case because that point of no return varies for all of us due to experience, training, and personal liability and by that I mean the amount of anguish one would feel after the event, not fear of a lawsuit. However, this DM according to the facts we have now, did try to intercept, notified another instructor, and presumably kept up the intervention until they felt they had reached the "point of no return". Conduct of the DM prior to that critical juncture is up for debate but again there are still many questions unanswered.

Just my .02

And in this sense I view this case as very different to the Cayman's thread. Maybe this is just my inexperience. But the DM in this case did intervene and we don't know what actual factors prevented that intervention from being successful.

In the Cayman's thread there wasn't any intervention and it had, IMO, negligence written all across it. This one does not smell at all the same to me. But I'm drawing on very limited experience and training - this is just how it comes across to me.

[Katamuki]

Thal, again I disagree about the DM failing to perform IF the victim was combative. A DM is to aid and assist in the manner for which they are trained. Included in this training are the understanding that their own life must at all times be protected. While it may be frustrating that the DM appears to be ineffective it is WAY too easy to arm-chair quarter back the situation. We dont know the state of the DMs equipment, mask, fins, air supply, mental state (rapture of stress). Claiming that any DM you trained could have produced a different result is hard to believe. For all you know the victim may have been pulling off the DMs mask and 2nd stage along with poking her fingers in her eyes. I doubt she wrote out harsh words on a slate and this drove the DM away.

My only deep rescue was at 40 meters on an unresponsive diver so I have never had the experience of a fight at depth. I do however have over 800 dives guiding individuals from reef to deep water drift and this scenario we are talking about has made me think long and hard about what I will do to assist someone who may or may NOT want my help. As someone has already said, if I am going down that deep I AM hauling someone's ass back up.

[deepstops]

Thal has made up his mind and he's not going to consider any other argument or explanation other than his speculation the DM failed to perform her duty.

To close this thread at this point would NOT be a disservice to the Scubaboard community.

[stevejaz]

And in this sense I view this case as very different to the Cayman's thread. Maybe this is just my inexperience. But the DM in this case did intervene and we don't know what actual factors prevented that intervention from being successful.

In the Cayman's thread there wasn't any intervention and it had, IMO, negligence written all across it. This one does not smell at all the same to me. But I'm drawing on very limited experience and training - this is just how it comes across to me.

Actually, I don't know that this thread is (potentially) that much different.

Similarities.... (all possible assumptions of course)

-Inexperienced divers? We know at least one was and the other required a DM

-DM was questionably not in full control (One lost site for up to 10 minutes but was a DG, other let diver seperate themselves by a depth of 20', don't know how far in front, back, right, or left of DM they were and they were definitely this was definitely a DM role)

-Questionable dive site, both ascended to a hard bottom but went in a direction that was condusive to a much deeper dive with inexperienced or questionable divers

-One or possibly both divers had the intention of going deeper than their training

-Both the DM and DG attempted a rescue but only one actually made contact but abandon for unknown reasons

-Both divers may have had similar motives, be it deep dives, or life altering dives..don't know

The above is obviously subjective and do not necessarily reflect my opinion but my attempt to look at them subjectively.

Steve

[Thalassamania]

Thal, again I disagree about the DM failing to perform IF the victim was combative. A DM is to aid and assist in the manner for which they are trained. Included in this training are the understanding that their own life must at all times be protected. While it may be frustrating that the DM appears to be ineffective it is WAY too easy to arm-chair quarter back the situation. We dont know the state of the DMs equipment, mask, fins, air supply, mental state (rapture of stress). Claiming that any DM you trained could have produced a different result is hard to believe. For all you know the victim may have been pulling off the DMs mask and 2nd stage along with poking her fingers in her eyes. I doubt she wrote out harsh words on a slate and this drove the DM away.There a lots of things that we do not know and as they are revealed opinions will shift too. I make no claim as to the ability of DMs I've trained, I have certified one DM in my life and I am unlikely to certify a second. I will say that weakest Instructor I ever trained should have had no problem with the two skills needed here, hold onto the tank valve, use an air siphon to establish and maintain slight positive buoyancy.

My only deep rescue was at 40 meters on an unresponsive diver so I have never had the experience of a fight at depth. I do however have over 800 dives guiding individuals from reef to deep water drift and this scenario we are talking about has made me think long and hard about what I will do to assist someone who may or may NOT want my help. As someone has already said, if I am going down that deep I AM hauling someone's ass back up.
That's the point, haul them back up.
Thal has made up his mind and he's not going to consider any other argument or explanation other than his speculation the DM failed to perform her duty.A base canard ... give me new data and I always reanalyze. Bottom line (at this point) is just as Katamuki stated: "... if I am going down that deep I AM hauling someone's ass back up." No one was hauled up, end of story.

To close this thread at this point would NOT be a disservice to the Scubaboard community.While it may not suit your purposes (whatever they are) closing the tread before more data is available will do everyone, including the DM, a disservice in the end.

[deepstops]

There a lots of things that we do not know and as they are revealed opinions will shift too.

Your tune shifts.... So you admit many facts are unknown but how many times have you already stated this instructor failed to perform a function "even the weakest instructor you've trained" would be able to perform?

A base canard ... give me new data and I always reanalyze.

There isn't enough information available to analyze what happened. You don't know what transpired down there and neither do I but you've already blamed the instructor how many times?

While it may not suit your purposes (whatever they are) closing the tread before more data is available will do everyone, including the DM, a disservice in the end.

My purposes? I don't have a horse in this race. So what's your purpose? You've already done a disservice to the instructor by placing the blame on her without knowing some rather important facts.

[Riger]

With respect, hugs and other joy-joy feelings (added afterward to not look like a dingbat...)

Can you please both shut-up before this thread gets locked.

If you don't agree with a statement or standpoint, agree to disagree (or ignore it) and move on. Come on chaps, this is not fair on the community as a whole.

Thanks in advance, Best Regards
Richard

[LeadTurn_SD]

Thal has made up his mind and he's not going to consider any other argument or explanation other than his speculation the DM failed to perform her duty.

To close this thread at this point would NOT be a disservice to the Scubaboard community.

Thal tends to have pretty strong opinions, but (unlike my opinions :D ) they have a basis in long and broad experience.

And I think you've also formed a strong opinion, based on your own experience and the way you read the incident.

We don't have all the facts. The facts we do have may be incorrect. But if we take what we know at full face value, there are some problems with how the DM apparently handled this dive. She apparently let the victim get away from her. To her credit she did attempt to get the victim back under her supervision, including making direct physical contact with the victim, a confrontation ensued, but then the DM apparently abandoned the victim to her fate.

Could she /should she have done more?

The facts are so sparse that is really all we have to talk about.

Could the DM bring a non-cooperative diver up from deep water? I think she should have been able to. Here is why:

1.) Weight carried: We are talking about the tropics, so hopefully the diver isn't carrying 30 lbs of lead. The DM should have been able to get positive enough to get the victim moving upwards.

2.) Experience / Training: The DM is Rescue trained. She was taught how to do this. I'm a very big guy, but if a small female got behind me, got a grip on my tank valve and clamped her knees on my tank, then inflated her BC.... we are going up. Not much I could do about it except cuss a lot :D

So yes, based on 1 & 2 I'd say a half-way fit & competent DM could swim a middle-aged, combative, possible post-stroke female victim up.

As a point of reference, even with my limited experience I have done something slightly similar. In the 70's, I brought a narc'ed diver up from depth (a bit over 90 feet when I saw him)... with fin power only. This was in the pre-BC days, neither of us had BC's on. I had about 12 lbs of weight, plus the weight of my steel 72. He had maybe 6lbs of weight, and a steel 72. He wasn't fighting me, but was not really assisting either. I swam him up into shallower water, then he was fine and back in control. It was hard, but can be done.

With a BC, it would have been much easier.

I can understand the DM's initial confusion at having a combative diver push the DM away when the DM was only trying to assist, and can see that in her confusion the DM may have hesitated to intervene more forcefully to stop the victim from descending. And I'm sure the DM is very torn up about it and will ask herself "what-if's" for a long time... but there were some mistakes made here.

Best wishes.

[deepstops]

No more posts from me, you have my word :)

The adage "Never argue with a pig. It just frustrates you and irritates the pig" comes to mind.

Without facts, speculation is perfectly acceptable but trying to place blame is not.

[Thalassamania]

My tune has not shifted, accident investigations are never perfect, data is never complete, reconstructions are never perfect, if there's anything that I've learned in the over two thousand diving fatalities that I've analyzed, it's that the simplest explanation is most often the most accurate.

The simplest explanation here is that the Instructor screwed the pooch. What she needed to do was grab the victim's tank valve and establish positive buoyancy, she failed to even attempt to do that and seems to have gone astray and become involved in some sort of completely unnecessary struggle with the victim. Why she did this is a question of interest, but the exact reason has little bearing on her failure to secure a strong grip on the victim's tank valve and establish positive buoyancy.

She will, doubtless, have rationalizations as to why she was unable to accomplish these simple tasks, but the fact remains ... she came back up alone.

[Web Monkey]

Claiming that any DM you trained could have produced a different result is hard to believe. For all you know the victim may have been pulling off the DMs mask and 2nd stage along with poking her fingers in her eyes. I doubt she wrote out harsh words on a slate and this drove the DM away.

The victim was apparently an elderly woman. It's unlikely she could have posed a threat to anybody but herself.

In any case, proper DM training would have allowed the DM to control the situation and surface with the woman with minimal danger.

Terry

[dumpsterDiver]

I like the tone of this thread lately. Treat DM as professionals who have an actual responsibility to be attentive and also to intervene effectively regardless of the cause of the victim's combativeness, narcosis or suicidal intent.

Not so much BS about don't do anything that you are uncomfortable doing, don't do something that might scare you or get your mask ripped off etc.

[Web Monkey]

As someone has already said, if I am going down that deep I AM hauling someone's ass back up.

That was me. If someone has screwed up bad enough to need rescuing, I no longer care about whether or not they like me or approve of my decision. They can be as pissed off as they want, but if I can gain contact, I'm not surfacing alone.

Aside from carrying serious underwater weapons, I can't imagine what an elderly woman could do to prevent a qualified DM from performing a rescue.

I hope more information is forthcoming at some point, since this is just really bizarre sounding right now.

Terry

[stevejaz]

My tune has not shifted, accident investigations are never perfect, data is never complete, reconstructions are never perfect, if there's anything that I've learned in the over two thousand diving fatalities that I've analyzed, it's that the simplest explanation is most often the most accurate.

The simplest explanation here is that the Instructor screwed the pooch. What she needed to do was grab the victim's tank valve and establish positive buoyancy, she failed to even attempt to do that and seems to have gone astray and become involved in some sort of completely unnecessary struggle with the victim. Why she did this is a question of interest, but the exact reason has little bearing on her failure to secure a strong grip on the victim's tank valve and establish positive buoyancy.

She will, doubtless, have rationalizations as to why she was unable to accomplish these simple tasks, but the fact remains ... she came back up alone.

While I can't say that I totally disagree with you...given the uncertainty of the facts by your own admission do you really want to make that strong and insensative of a statement? If that DM were standing in front of you, would that be what you'd say to her? As for all you know, you may have just done that but from the anonymity of sitting behind your computer.

[Thalassamania]

While I can't say that I totally disagree with you...given the uncertainty of the facts by your own admission do you really want to make that strong and insensative of a statement? If that DM were standing in front of you, would that be what you'd say to her? As for all you know, you may have just done that but from the anonymity of sitting behind your computer.I'd ask her what happened, weigh her testimony against that of others and the fact that can other wise be discerned and tell her what conclusion I reached. Would I have any problem telling her that based on what I know know, where that to stand unrefuted, it would indicate that she screwed up badly? No problem what-so-ever. Because anonimity works both ways you don't realize that I've had to do it in the past concerning deaths at sea, and while it's never fun, it's never easy, it comes with the territory.

[Katamuki]

Two weeks ago on a deep drift dive off of Aguni island (but not more than 28 meters deep or so with a 30 meter floor...) a largish diver was entranced by the swirling fishie tornadoes and not only left the group in the 2.5 know current but went much deeper than the agreed upon max depth. It took two seperate times for the "little japanese girl" to snag his tank valve and haul him back up AGAINST HIS WILL. This little japanese girl is a 7 yr veteran of the Yanaguni dive sites and is headed to Bonin island to DM dives with sperm whales. A very good and powerful swimmer despite her mayb 105lb weight. The diver weighed 240lbs or maybe a little more. On the ascent after he calmed down he ended up OOA at which point the DM aided him. What is so bad about this is that when he had left the small group of 5 divers initially he ignored the tank banging she was doing with a reef hook and then ignored her "air checks" on the way up until he ran out. He was counseled on the boat by the crew and ended up sitting out the next dive.

[stevejaz]

I'd ask her what happened, weigh her testimony against that of others and the fact that can other wise be discerned and tell her what conclusion I reached.

That makes sense, and I believe in being straight up...but you haven't heard her side yet, my guess is she can't even officially tell her side at this point.

My point is, I think a lot of people on here come to conclusions and say things they never would if they were speaking face to face with the concerned individual.

I'm not saying you're that way, in reading your posts, I'm guessing that you would give your analysis of the situation in no uncertain terms after hearing her side of the story but unless it was a blatant incompetance, I'd also guess you'd be a little more eloquent and compassionate about it.;)

[DocIndyDiver]

What about the Husband? We've seemed to have forgotten he was on the dive & boat. What was his demeanor...distraught, devastated or cool as a cucumber? Did he dive the second dive? I've kept up with this thread and I have not seen much comment on this. If anyone has first or second hand knowledge please chime in.

[Epinephelus]

This is an interesting thread.
I find the folks who are convinced they can bring someone up who doesn't want to come up particularly interesting.
Getting to a panic-stricken diver's tank/valve to drag them up is one thing; getting to the tank/valve of someone who doesn't want you to is another matter entirely. Suppose they get to your tank/valve first?
I've never tried it, but it seems to me - and I'm in my 60's - that if I see you coming, and I want to keep you away from my backside then I could probably do it. Indeed, if my intention were to not be dragged up, I can think of some ways to do some unexpected things (after all, a DM doesn't approach a diver to help with the idea they're going to be hostile, do they?) that'd give you second thoughts about even approaching me after the initial encounter.
No, I can't fault the DM for not "whipping" that "old lady" in an underwater fight and dragging her to the surface against her will - if that's the case.
E

[ScubaSteve]

What about the Husband? We've seemed to have forgotten he was on the dive & boat. What was his demeanor...distraught, devastated or cool as a cucumber? Did he dive the second dive? I've kept up with this thread and I have not seen much comment on this. If anyone has first or second hand knowledge please chime in.


It has been stated that he stayed with the search boats and did not do another dive. I would have called him Gabe Watson if he had.

As for the who "has the bigger Johnson" (hypothetically of course)....I only hope that they can take their differences elsewhere because they are only taking away from the thread at this point. Your statements were made 20 pages ago and on every page since. Drop it and move on. I respect the vast knowledge and experience that you all possess however when it is displayed in what can only be described as "childish bickering", then all that knowledge accounts for nothing. Agree to disagree and move on.

[mrlipis]

2.) Experience / Training: The DM is Rescue trained. She was taught how to do this. I'm a very big guy, but if a small female got behind me, got a grip on my tank valve and clamped her knees on my tank, then inflated her BC.... we are going up. Not much I could do about it except cuss a lot

I find the folks who are convinced they can bring someone up who doesn't want to come up particularly interesting.
Getting to a panic-stricken diver's tank/valve to drag them up is one thing; getting to the tank/valve of someone who doesn't want you to is another matter entirely. Suppose they get to your tank/valve first?
I've never tried it, but it seems to me - and I'm in my 60's - that if I see you coming, and I want to keep you away from my backside then I could probably do it. Indeed, if my intention were to not be dragged up, I can think of some ways to do some unexpected things (after all, a DM doesn't approach a diver to help with the idea they're going to be hostile, do they?) that'd give you second thoughts about even approaching me after the initial encounter.

Epinephelus has beaten me to the punch. I agree with him. If I know you are trying to get behind me, it ain't going to happen. Nobody is quick underwater. A panicked diver on the surface won't go underwater with you and it is much easier for the rescuer to go under and come up from behind.. checkmate. In this case maybe had the DM just dropped down on top of her and grabbed the tank valve and taken control, we would have had a different outcome, however it appears she made contact first and encountered resistance. I don't think we know how persistent the DM was but at some point she may have needed to consider her safety first.

We are taught to approach a diver underwater and get their attention first and check for responsiveness. At no time during my rescue or DM training (right or wrong) did we do scenarios with a combative victim underwater. On the surface, yes.

[Web Monkey]

Epinephelus has beaten me to the punch. I agree with him. If I know you are trying to get behind me, it ain't going to happen. Nobody is quick underwater.

While fascinating, it's also completely irreverent.

The victim wasn't Jet Li, she was an elderly woman.

And considering that she felt it necessary to hire a DM for a buddy, it's also unlikely that she had any significant underwater self-defense or rescue skills. I don't think "pushing the DM away" counts as any sort of significant threat.

Terry

[reefrat]

Don't know if it's really relevant but here is a link to a video about two male divers (buddies) who died at the Blue Hole Dahab.
Apparently one got into difficulty at depth and the other tried to help- they both ended up dead still holding onto each other.
Point is that it may not be that simple to rescue a disoriented negative diver at depth and if the rescue diver tries but for various reasons fears for their own safety then the old tec divers adage applies "better thee than me"- let them go!!
Easier said than done of course if you have an emotional tie to the diver heading down the wall!

YouTube - Fatal Diver's Accident in Blue Hole, Dahab episode 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StTbu7UI4PU)

Incidentally, I have dropped down to 45m at looked through this "arch" at Dahab many years ago- quite spooky, especially when you think about all the plaques on the rock face way up above. But also the swim through looks deceptively easy- especially when youre narked- and I have no quarms about admitting that I'm narked anywhere below 35m!

[jkaterenchuk]

Don't know if it's really relevant but here is a link to a video about two male divers (buddies) who died at the Blue Hole Dahab.
Apparently one got into difficulty at depth and the other tried to help- they both ended up dead still holding onto each other.
Point is that it may not be that simple to rescue a disoriented negative diver at depth and if the rescue diver tries but for various reasons fears for their own safety then the old tec divers adage applies "better thee than me"- let them go!!
Easier said than done of course if you have an emotional tie to the diver heading down the wall!


Its absolutely relevant. It a perfect example that a successful rescue with a concious diver is not as simple as your practise in a class or imagine in your mind or over the internet.

As another example consider the incident that has recently happened in Thailand (one month ago). A very experienced instuctor has a panic situation with a diver. End result is the divers body was found lodged under a rock at almost 50M and the Instructors body has not yet been found.

John

[mrlipis]

And considering that she felt it necessary to hire a DM for a buddy, it's also unlikely that she had any significant underwater self-defense or rescue skills. I don't think "pushing the DM away" counts as any sort of significant threat.

It has not been established that she hired the DM. The dive op may have required her to have a personal DM. While I am not saying that is the case, there seems to be some confusion as to why, at the last moment, the boat had to wait while this DM joined the group.
Furthermore, a 67 year old woman could easily rip your mask off or pull you reg out of your mouth so I think that is a bad argument. Any resistance creates a risk and a potentially dangerous situation. Adrenaline is a very potent substance.

[ItsBruce]

How did we get to the point of debating a diver who is trying to kill himself or herself or is fighting to avoid being rescued? My recollection of the thread is that the deceased pushed the DM away at about 100 fsw. To me, that's a lot different from fighting away a rescue. Couldn't it have been a part of a panic or of being narced or both?

And, as far as performing a rescue, especially on a panicked diver, being narced could have impaired the DM's performance and/or cognitive skills and thus prevented her from rescuing the diver.

[fisheyeview]

How did we get to the point of debating a diver who is trying to kill himself or herself or is fighting to avoid being rescued? My recollection of the thread is that the deceased pushed the DM away at about 100 fsw. To me, that's a lot different from fighting away a rescue. Couldn't it have been a part of a panic or of being narced or both?

And, as far as performing a rescue, especially on a panicked diver, being narced could have impaired the DM's performance and/or cognitive skills and thus prevented her from rescuing the diver.


There have been further posts on the incident. I don't know if you have seen them. Danthe Engineer has spoken to several people from SC about the incident, and has given some further information as it was relayed to him.

[Web Monkey]

Furthermore, a 67 year old woman could easily rip your mask off or pull you reg out of your mouth so I think that is a bad argument.

Although I'm unwilling to die trying to rescue someone, the above actions are not significantly threatening. A mask is nice, but not required and I won't immediately die if someone pulls the reg out of my mouth. I have a spare, and sometimes two.

At some point the rescuer can decide there's a significant risk of personal injury or death and abandon the effort, however there was no evidence of any sort of resistance here except mention of "pushing away"

Terry

[mrlipis]

Although I'm unwilling to die trying to rescue someone, the above actions are not significantly threatening. A mask is nice, but not required and I won't immediately die if someone pulls the reg out of my mouth. I have a spare, and sometimes two.

Those actions are very much threatening and I don't understand why you would think they aren't. While not necessarily life threatening, it is certainly not a position I would want to put myself into. We do not know what this woman's frame of mind was and I am not necessarily defending the actions or lack of from the DM, but I guarantee you, if someone does not want to be rescued, I am not going to risk my life to save someone who doesn't want to be helped. It's not like we are in a position to talk this person through the problem.
Unfortunately we never seem to be able to end up with all the facts. This thread will die off and we may never know the true story here.

[Web Monkey]

Those actions are very much threatening and I don't understand why you would think they aren't.

Take a good Adv Nitrox/Deco class.

I paid actual money to train for stuff like that.

Terry

[divengolf]

There have been further posts on the incident. I don't know if you have seen them. Danthe Engineer has spoken to several people from SC about the incident, and has given some further information as it was relayed to him.

Where are they?? On SB or elsewhere?

[bleeb]

Where are they?? On SB or elsewhere?

In this thread.

[TheScubaBOB]

Basic EFR & Rescue Question:

Isn't one of the first steps to always get consent to help? In the case of a non-responsive diver then consent is implied but if someone is resisting your attempts to help then clearly there is NO CONSENT.

I'm not asking to be a prick or try to incite an argument, this is a serious question from someone just 10 days out of PADI Rescue Diver Course.

[fisheyeview]

Basic EFR & Rescue Question:

Isn't one of the first steps to always get consent to help? In the case of a non-responsive diver then consent is implied but if someone is resisting your attempts to help then clearly there is NO CONSENT.

I'm not asking to be a prick or try to incite an argument, this is a serious question from someone just 10 days out of PADI Rescue Diver Course.


Often medical treatments, and psyciatric treatments, are done all the time without concent if the person is not capable of making an informed decision. In those cases there is often time to go through the legal process. In this case obviously there was not the luxury to do that. The rescurer would have to make a quick decision as to the ability of the victim to make an informed decision. In my opinion a person attempting suicide would not be capable of making an informed decision. I would at least attempt to rescue the person. This would also apply to someone who is narced, as their judgement is impared.

This is not meant to imply that the DM did not do her job.

[divengolf]

In this thread.


I know that. I thought he was referring to a current update, not something a few days old.

[Doc Intrepid]

The incident description posts in this thread have been carefully caveated (danclem, onlyhalcyon, meg diver);

Even the 'primary witness' (see post number 48) onlyhalcyon did not see/know what occurred with the DM.

Dantheengineer provided "dockside hearsay" in post number 163.

No one posting in this thread was a direct witness to this entire incident.

This entire thread is an exercise in deduction, logical or otherwise, based on interviews, rational assumptions, and massive speculation.

;)

[TheScubaBOB]

Often medical treatments, and psyciatric treatments, are done all the time without concent if the person is not capable of making an informed decision. In those cases there is often time to go through the legal process. In this case obviously there was not the luxury to do that. The rescurer would have to make a quick decision as to the ability of the victim to make an informed decision. In my opinion a person attempting suicide would not be capable of making an informed decision. I would at least attempt to rescue the person. This would also apply to someone who is narced, as their judgement is impared.

This is not meant to imply that the DM did not do her job.

Again, one of the points they drive home in EFR is that we are not said medicial professionals and therefore can't be expected to perform to the same standards.

Nowhere in the course does it tell you that there is implied consent for any reason other than nonresponsive victim.

We have the right to be stupid, we have the right to endanger our own life. Who are we to judge another person's mental state.

In the case of a panicked diver they are seeking our help (albiet not calmly) so we have consent.

If I'm underwater (at any depth) and just want to be left alone then that is my choice.

If a friend of mine is had too much to drink I would try to get their keys from them and offer to drive them home. I wouldn't get into a physical altercation with them over it. I'd simply call the police and report that they are driving ahile drunk and give them the plate & description of the vehicle as well as my friend's address so they can intercept them.

Again, I'm trying to discuss this seriously to expand my understanding.

[SteveAD]

If a friend of mine is had too much to drink I would try to get their keys from them and offer to drive them home. I wouldn't get into a physical altercation with them over it. I'd simply call the police and report that they are driving ahile drunk and give them the plate & description of the vehicle as well as my friend's address so they can intercept them.

.

I on the other hand, if I saw an obviously drunk friend about to hop into their car and drive away, would first, try to convince them it was a bad idea, but would not hesitate, if necessary, to physically restrain them.

Sure, I would technically be guilty of battery, but I would have a clean concience that I did what was necessary to prevent someone from getting hurt.

[ScubaSteve]

Again, one of the points they drive home in EFR is that we are not said medicial professionals and therefore can't be expected to perform to the same standards.


Be sure to check your local laws (to wherever you are diving that is) about that because I believe you might be surprised in some areas where people dive. I only suggest this because of information here on SB that caught me off guard on that very topic.

[TheScubaBOB]

I on the other hand, if I saw an obviously drunk friend about to hop into their car and drive away, would first, try to convince them it was a bad idea, but would not hesitate, if necessary, to physically restrain them.

Sure, I would technically be guilty of battery, but I would have a clean concience that I did what was necessary to prevent someone from getting hurt.

You can bet they'd see me call the police before they got into the car. I wouldn't wait until they were on their way down the road.

[TheScubaBOB]

Be sure to check your local laws (to wherever you are diving that is) about that because I believe you might be surprised in some areas where people dive. I only suggest this because of information here on SB that caught me off guard on that very topic.

Illinois basically protects anyone who provides assistance unless their actions were wonton & careless. That protection even extends to medical professionals.

[mikemath]

This thread has been sticking in my mind for the past couple days. On the one hand, there's reason to believe that the DM contributed to this incident through poor positioning (allowing her buddy to get far away) and failing to act effectively to prevent a dangerous descent. There's also reason to believe that the diver contributed to this incident, first by failing to disclose information about her stroke, then by (seemingly willingly) leaving her buddy/DM, then by ignoring advice to surface, and finally by (apparently) resisting the efforts of the DM to help her. Because of all the contributing factors, ultimate assignment of blame needs to be done on legal, moral, or philosophical grounds. Because of differences in personal beliefs and interpretation of the evidence in the case, I don't expect us all to suddenly agree on the degree of blame to be assigned and start singing Kumbayah.

Despite the thrash on blame assignment, I've really benefited from this discussion, as many topics around risk management have been discussed. The important things I'm taking away from this discussion and planning to apply are:

As a private DM for new divers, stay close and alert to the divers under your care at all times. This could go so far as holding hands/tank valves throughout a dive. Don't just apply a normal "buddy" standard of being within 2-3 kicks, and don't focus on guiding.
As a DM in any capacity, be very explicit before a dive about not only the general dive plan, but under what conditions you will take direct action. Also, covering what you expect of the divers and what they can expect of you should be established. There should be no surprise on your part if I start hauling you up from deeper than was agreed. There should also be no surprise when I stop trying to save you when you drop below an established depth limit, so you should be careful not to allow a situation to degrade to that point.
As a DM or even just as a buddy, be very choosy about who I elect to accompany to an advanced dive site. I *might* agree to taking a new diver who is 67 years old and just had a stroke a month ago .
In a rescue situation, once the rescue starts, it's not over until the victim is safe on the surface. I will continue to act as if my direct involvement is required until the victim is safe on the surface or until I have reached previously-set limits to my rescue involvement (depth or air remaining being the most obvious).

[Web Monkey]

We have the right to be stupid, we have the right to endanger our own life.

The victim hired a DM to make sure her dive was safe.

This would presumably include keeping her from doing anything exceptionally dangerous while diving.

Terry

[TheScubaBOB]

The victim hired a DM to make sure her dive was safe.

This would presumably include keeping her from doing anything exceptionally dangerous while diving.

Terry

I was speaking in general terms regarding EFR & Rescue Diver Training.

[ItsBruce]

Someone commented about the Good Samaritan Laws, though not using the specific term. Please note that they vary from place to place, and do not necessarily mean what people think they mean.

[Thalassamania]

We have many people, with very different backgrounds and experiences, all commenting on the situation from their own, often unique, perspectives. While there is, in some cases, rather great overlap concerning the capabilities and training practices of other diving communities, such knowledge is rarely reciprocal. For example: I have a lot of experience with what goes on in the scientific and sports diving communities, a fair amount of knowledge concerning commercial diving and professional PSD, and just a smattering of the military world. I'd be hard pressed to comment on training for pier construction or teaching the operation of military diver delivery vehicles. Similarly there are very few of you reading this who have any experience in the scientific diving community, so you assume that all you have to do is project your sports diving experiences, training and background ... a very risky assumption.

I doubt if many individuals in the sports community have any real knowledge of the scientific diving world. Many scientific divers are equally blind about other communities, I remember going to a dive show with 4 or 5 of my Assistant Team Leaders, these are folks whose diving knowledge and water skills would place them in the top tier of all the divers that I've known, yet one of them takes me aside and asks me if all the people here are divers? She went on to say that they couldn't possibly be, most of them did not look fit enough to pass a treadmill EKG (a requirement for scientific divers) and a lot of them smoked! She knew nothing at all about the sports diving world and was simply projecting her own experiences into places where it was not applicable.

I see a lot of that going on in this (and similar) threads. When I say that preventing a diver from going deeper should not be a big deal ... I'm not blowing smoke, the, "grab the valve and use an air siphon," approach to the problem is one that we teach in the rescue portion of our courses. Frankly, I thought that I was being generous saying that I expected the weakest Instructor I'd ever trained could pull it off, when the reality is that each and every diver I've ever trained probably could. But there's that difference in standards and training between communities, I could give you a long list of things, from a minimum two minute breath hold, to a twenty foot free dive against the buoyancy of a full 5 mil suit with no weightbelt, that we expect our people to be able to do routinely ... no fuss, no muss.

But I get painted into some bizarre, hairy chested diver, corner that really does not apply, by people who have not experienced what we do and how we train, and who assume that because it was not something they were exposed to in their sports diver training, it is not possible, or belongs in some strange realm of Dirk Pitt clones. In fact I am one of the most careful and risk adverse people that you will ever meet. We teach normal people, in many cases rather nerdy scientists, to perform at a level that is outside of what the sports diving community comprehends, its not magic, it is demanding, but it can be done with anyone who can pass a test of basic watermanship.

Epinephelus, please believe me when I say (irrelevant as I see it being to this entire conversation) that getting to the tank/valve of even someone who doesn't want you is no big deal if you can make contact with them, the only way that you're going to fail is if they swim away from you faster than you can catch up. It doesn't really matter that you might be able to keep your rescuer away from your backside, as long as that rescuer has any sort of a grip on you, you are going up.

Mrlipis, all the facts are not in, but from what is known I can not see where the DM was in any particular danger. While the tank valve is perhaps best, straps will work too. All that needed be done was to make contact, grab a hold, any hold, and establish positive buoyancy. While this may seem a daunting task to you, it really is not, and should be well within the capabilities of an Instructor. Perhaps you should defer a bit to those of us here who have considered, experimented with, practiced and teach the problem of how to handle a struggling victim underwater rather than believing that since it was not in your training it is impossible or impractical or some internet pipe dream.

The fact that dealing with a struggling victim underwater is, "certainly not a position that you would want to put yourself into," does not mean that it is in fact either a difficult problem or a dangerous one. It only means that you personally have made the decision that it is not something that you are prepared to deal with, and that's fine.

jkaterenchuk, a successful rescue with a conscious struggling victim takes a little training and practice, not much, but a little helps. You example of the incident in Thailand a month ago really just goes to show that there are likely many "diving leaders" out there who have not been trained, or thought it through, or practiced the needed techniques.

kyphur, we are clearly very different people. If a friend of mine had too much to drink and it required that I get into a physical altercation with him or her to prevent their driving and endangering them self and others, or that I park my car behind theirs, I'd do it (and have done it). But where I live there's almost no chance of seeing the police for a hour or so after you call.

[jon m]

OMG-
i can't believe i read this whole mess...
alot has been said about the DM, where in the H-E-L-L was the "buddy"??? i'll be screwed , blued and tatooed if i ever let my buddy (wife) descend, dive or ascend without me.
we dove walls in Roatan, Mexico and alone (just us) in Hawaii and i'm sorry but it is your responsability to know where YOU ARE at all times , not the DM's (even if you hired one).
maybe the DM was dealing with the husband (the reason she was 20' away?). at that point, it was the missing divers JOB to be WITH HER BUDDY. then she wouldn't have been 20' away (and falling)....
one good thing, this has us re-evaluating our buddy procedure...

[TheScubaBOB]

We have many people, with very different backgrounds and experiences, all commenting on the situation from their own, often unique, perspectives.

Thalassamania,

That last one was probably the best post I've seen in this whole thread.

Yes, we each bring our unique background & history into every situation we encounter.

I appreciate that your training is to a much higher standard than mine, in fact I respect it.

Regarding the intoxicated friend driving, I know from personal experience that anything I do no matter how well intentioned that puts me in a physical confrontation with an impared person or restrains another person against their will puts my freedom in jeopardy. Illinois has some very stupid laws (unlawful restraint is a sex crime requiring Sex Offender Registration & Sentencing and yes there is at least one case where a guy was convicted & sentenced as such when common sense says he did nothing wrong). If my friend chooses badly I will do everything I can up to the point where I risk being taken from my 3 children who still need me very much.

The same holds true in diving. I want to build the knowledge that my training has given me into skills that might make a difference in a real life situation if I ever encounter one but again my ability to act will be limited up to the point where I risk being taken from my 3 children.

I'm glad there are professionals who have a deeper skill set than I ever will.

[Thalassamania]

Hawaii has some very stupid laws too, we're big on "terroristic threatening." But I guess it's a different culture here, very rural, very "solve it yourself." I can't imagine any of the local cops arresting someone who prevented a drunk from getting behind the wheel using any means that did not put the drunk in the hospital. One morning a guy was found hog-tied behind a local bar, that was the best way his friends (whom I do not expect had any more business driving than he did) could restrain him. Not much of a fuss, no after effects. Likely not a good approach in the big city.

[gcbryan]

We have many people, with very different backgrounds and experiences, all commenting on the situation from their own, often unique, perspectives. While there is, in some cases, rather great overlap concerning the capabilities and training practices of other diving communities, such knowledge is rarely reciprocal. For example: I have a lot of experience with what goes on in the scientific and sports diving communities, a fair amount of knowledge concerning commercial diving and professional PSD, and just a smattering of the military world. I'd be hard pressed to comment on training for pier construction or teaching the operation of military diver delivery vehicles. Similarly there are very few of you reading this who have any experience in the scientific diving community, so you assume that all you have to do is project your sports diving experiences, training and background ... a very risky assumption.

I doubt if many individuals in the sports community have any real knowledge of the scientific diving world. Many scientific divers are equally blind about other communities, I remember going to a dive show with 4 or 5 of my Assistant Team Leaders, these are folks whose diving knowledge and water skills would place them in the top tier of all the divers that I've known, yet one of them takes me aside and asks me if all the people here are divers? She went on to say that they couldn't possibly be, most of them did not look fit enough to pass a treadmill EKG (a requirement for scientific divers) and a lot of them smoked! She knew nothing at all about the sports diving world and was simply projecting her own experiences into places where it was not applicable.

I see a lot of that going on in this (and similar) threads. When I say that preventing a diver from going deeper should not be a big deal ... I'm not blowing smoke, the, "grab the valve and use an air siphon," approach to the problem is one that we teach in the rescue portion of our courses. Frankly, I thought that I was being generous saying that I expected the weakest Instructor I'd ever trained could pull it off, when the reality is that each and every diver I've ever trained probably could. But there's that difference in standards and training between communities, I could give you a long list of things, from a minimum two minute breath hold, to a twenty foot free dive against the buoyancy of a full 5 mil suit with no weightbelt, that we expect our people to be able to do routinely ... no fuss, no muss.

But I get painted into some bizarre, hairy chested diver, corner that really does not apply, by people who have not experienced what we do and how we train, and who assume that because it was not something they were exposed to in their sports diver training, it is not possible, or belongs in some strange realm of Dirk Pitt clones. In fact I am one of the most careful and risk adverse people that you will ever meet. We teach normal people, in many cases rather nerdy scientists, to perform at a level that is outside of what the sports diving community comprehends, its not magic, it is demanding, but it can be done with anyone who can pass a test of basic watermanship.

Epinephelus, please believe me when I say (irrelevant as I see it being to this entire conversation) that getting to the tank/valve of even someone who doesn't want you is no big deal if you can make contact with them, the only way that you're going to fail is if they swim away from you faster than you can catch up. It doesn't really matter that you might be able to keep your rescuer away from your backside, as long as that rescuer has any sort of a grip on you, you are going up.

Mrlipis, all the facts are not in, but from what is known I can not see where the DM was in any particular danger. While the tank valve is perhaps best, straps will work too. All that needed be done was to make contact, grab a hold, any hold, and establish positive buoyancy. While this may seem a daunting task to you, it really is not, and should be well within the capabilities of an Instructor. Perhaps you should defer a bit to those of us here who have considered, experimented with, practiced and teach the problem of how to handle a struggling victim underwater rather than believing that since it was not in your training it is impossible or impractical or some internet pipe dream.

The fact that dealing with a struggling victim underwater is, "certainly not a position that you would want to put yourself into," does not mean that it is in fact either a difficult problem or a dangerous one. It only means that you personally have made the decision that it is not something that you are prepared to deal with, and that's fine.

jkaterenchuk, a successful rescue with a conscious struggling victim takes a little training and practice, not much, but a little helps. You example of the incident in Thailand a month ago really just goes to show that there are likely many "diving leaders" out there who have not been trained, or thought it through, or practiced the needed techniques.

kyphur, we are clearly very different people. If a friend of mine had too much to drink and it required that I get into a physical altercation with him or her to prevent their driving and endangering them self and others, or that I park my car behind theirs, I'd do it (and have done it). But where I live there's almost no chance of seeing the police for a hour or so after you call.

Good post!! However, when you say that people from one area apply their experience to another area aren't you doing this to some degree with your comments?

I know you have experience in both worlds but most of your posts talk about the scientific arena and the higher standards involved. The DM's that we are talking about here and in other posts weren't trained as a scientific divers. They were trained in the NAUI/PADI world and thrown out there to deal with vacationing divers.

If were are discussing what can be accomplished with higher standards I would agree but if we are expecting a DM to live up to a level that was never intended by their training and present circumstances I don't necessarily agree.

Of course we don't really know what happened with any of these threads and they are pretty one-sided.

[Thalassamania]

You have a point, leadership training does seem to have been depauperized just like diver training so perhaps I am holding this DM to a level of performance that she was not prepared for in all her leadership training ... I sincerely hope that's not the case, I hate to think that most of our diving leaders today might be that incapable.

[TheScubaBOB]

You have a point, leadership training does seem to have been depauperized just like diver training so perhaps I am holding this DM to a level of performance that she was not prepared for in all her leadership training ... I sincerely hope that's not the case, I hate to think that most of our diving leaders today might be that incapable.

I for one know a PADI Certified DM who isn't even an acceptable Dive Buddy! His first dive out as a working DM was his last and that has probably saved lives.

His poor example is exactly why as I search for an Instructor for my own DM Training I'm looking for someone who will hold me to higher standards than PADI.

[bsee65]

OMG-
i can't believe i read this whole mess...
alot has been said about the DM, where in the H-E-L-L was the "buddy"??? i'll be screwed , blued and tatooed if i ever let my buddy (wife) descend, dive or ascend without me.
we dove walls in Roatan, Mexico and alone (just us) in Hawaii and i'm sorry but it is your responsability to know where YOU ARE at all times , not the DM's (even if you hired one).
maybe the DM was dealing with the husband (the reason she was 20' away?). at that point, it was the missing divers JOB to be WITH HER BUDDY. then she wouldn't have been 20' away (and falling)....
one good thing, this has us re-evaluating our buddy procedure...


I can't believe you read it either based upon that question. Officially, as I read it, the DM was the buddy. According to the story, there was a DM specifically paid to buddy with this woman. Here from a person who was on the dive:

The DM was only hird to dive with MRS.Wood / Mr. Wood was diveing with a friend / yes the DM was informed by via hand signals by another diver and his wife that her partner was gone / confrontation I dident see it and dont know that it happen / not totaly what I think but almost

Sorry, Jon, but if the circumstances have been accurately described, the DM's responsibility was to be with the victim 100%, and it was the DM who should have enforced buddy proximity. If the dive operator decided that she needed a DM for supervision based upon her condition and/or skills, they may bear some responsibility in the end for causing her to hire a DM for safety who was then unable to keep her safe. While others may not agree, if it can be shown that her descent was intentional, I would absolve the DM and operator.

[DandyDon]

OMG-
i can't believe i read this whole mess...
alot has been said about the DM, where in the H-E-L-L was the "buddy"??? i'll be screwed , blued and tatooed if i ever let my buddy (wife) descend, dive or ascend without me.
we dove walls in Roatan, Mexico and alone (just us) in Hawaii and i'm sorry but it is your responsability to know where YOU ARE at all times , not the DM's (even if you hired one).
maybe the DM was dealing with the husband (the reason she was 20' away?). at that point, it was the missing divers JOB to be WITH HER BUDDY. then she wouldn't have been 20' away (and falling)....
one good thing, this has us re-evaluating our buddy procedure...
You were already answered, but as much confusion as there has been on this thread, let me add for clarity - I hope...
Your approach with your wife is ideal;

For reasons not completely known here, the DM was the lady's hired DM buddy - and some of us believe should have been very close and paying very close attention to the lady regardless of anything else happening, but blew it;

The lady's husband was diving with another buddy;

And I think (did I remember this right?) the lady's husband diving in another buddy pair had to point out to the hired DM that his wife was drifting down alone.
I do hope I have cleared confusion and not caused any...?

[d_lafleur]

You have a point, leadership training does seem to have been depauperized just like diver training so perhaps I am holding this DM to a level of performance that she was not prepared for in all her leadership training ... I sincerely hope that's not the case, I hate to think that most of our diving leaders today might be that incapable.

Thal, dont loose hope on the entire recreational community. I am currently taking my rescue dive course, and the training is intense, I dont feel like this situation would be out of my control when I am finished.

I appreciate the BC siphon tip. I have shared it with my dive buddies and instructer and all of us felt like it was a nice trick to have in the bag. I will be tuning that skill this weekend. I try to never miss an oppurtunity to hone a skill set when I am in the water.

[AquaExplorer]

Thal great post.

Just one addition if I may...if the "rescued" diver is actively resisting, to the point of causing physical harm to the rescuer (i.e you grab the tank valve and they grab you, around the throat, in the groin, etc) then it may be a heck of a lot more difficult, if not near impossible, to rescue someone.

Just food for thought.

[Thalassamania]

Thal, dont loose hope on the entire recreational community. I am currently taking my rescue dive course, and the training is intense, I dont feel like this situation would be out of my control when I am finished.
Great to hear!

I appreciate the BC siphon tip. I have shared it with my dive buddies and instructer and all of us felt like it was a nice trick to have in the bag. I will be tuning that skill this weekend. I try to never miss an oppurtunity to hone a skill set when I am in the water.
Keep in mind that it is hard to do if your stay horizontal or if you have a short BC hose. Practice and let me know how it works for you and what BC you are using. Thanks.
Thal great post.

Just one addition if I may...if the "rescued" diver is actively resisting, to the point of causing physical harm to the rescuer (i.e you grab the tank valve and they grab you, around the throat, in the groin, etc) then it may be a heck of a lot more difficult, if not near impossible, to rescue someone.

Just food for thought.
I agree, if she waves even a little chisel tip BC knife, that's her pass to dive as deep as she wants.

But if she grabs me by the throat or groin:shocked2: and hangs on ... we're going up.

[TheAquaticApe]

I had 4 dives to 75 feet in quarries at that point but when I signed up with this charter in the Keys they asked me about my deep ocean dive experience. I was at about 30 at the time. They said I was clear to dive on the Spiegel Grove and the Duane since I had an AOW card but I asked for a DM to lead me. I think at the time it was like $50 extra plus a nice tip. It was worth every penny. They guy I went down with kept an eye on me and pointed out a lot of interesting sights.

At one point, when examining the plaque on the port side of the ship I dropped maybe 2-3 feet. As I began kicking up I felt his hand on my tank valve and sure enough, he pulled me up to the rail where I was able to get myself sorted nicely.

On a funny note, I wore a 5mm jumpsuit and he wore a Viking drysuit that day. It was 72 at 100 feet!

[Thalassamania]

Ah ... the sweet smell of competence.

[B-rant]

I have been reading this thread for a week and finally decided to weigh in. I am new to diving only 15 or so dives under my belt. I have been in the fire service for 15 year and have experiance dealing with combative people. I can tell you without a doubt, that after my 15 dive, that I feel I could handle hauling up a person that didn't want to go. I think I could position my self in a place that would keep me safe, ie.. keep air in my mouth, and head to the top. I have read some very good point and truely learned from the comments made.

Thanks,
Brant

[mikemath]

I have been reading this thread for a week and finally decided to weigh in. I am new to diving only 15 or so dives under my belt. I have been in the fire service for 15 year and have experiance dealing with combative people. I can tell you without a doubt, that after my 15 dive, that I feel I could handle hauling up a person that didn't want to go. I think I could position my self in a place that would keep me safe, ie.. keep air in my mouth, and head to the top. I have read some very good point and truely learned from the comments made.

Thanks,
Brant

Sounds like you have an intuitive grasp of the mechanics of how to do this, probably based on similar requirements to get control of the situation from your firefighting experience. Getting to the surface is a big part of any rescue (and in this specific case, it was a clear point of failure), but you also need to respond once you're there. With your background, you've got a leg up on most people, but all the same you may want to sign up for a Rescue Diver class to learn about dive-specific rescue techniques. Sorry for the minor thread hijack, I just want to make sure that it's clear to divers of all experience levels reading this thread that just because Thal can use his judgment and experience to haul someone up, doesn't mean everyone should do the same, even under similar circumstances, without training.

[mrlipis]

Originally posted by Thalassamania
Mrlipis, all the facts are not in, but from what is known I can not see where the DM was in any particular danger. While the tank valve is perhaps best, straps will work too. All that needed be done was to make contact, grab a hold, any hold, and establish positive buoyancy. While this may seem a daunting task to you, it really is not, and should be well within the capabilities of an Instructor. Perhaps you should defer a bit to those of us here who have considered, experimented with, practiced and teach the problem of how to handle a struggling victim underwater rather than believing that since it was not in your training it is impossible or impractical or some internet pipe dream.

Not sure if I should genuflex in awe of your superiority. I have read many of your posts and find most of your opinions to be acceptable. Your condescending arrogance is not. I have not defended the DMs actions. I have not suggested it is either impossible or a pipe dream to get a struggling victim to the surface. You have made it clear that your worst trained instructor would be able to handle a combative diver. I would not consider this as a rescue if the diver does not want to be helped. You or anyone else is not going to make a safe controlled ascent with a diver who does not want to go up. You have made some very blunt statements about controlling a diver. The scenario can not even be tested because it would be a dangerous scenario to play out. One thing for sure, there have been plenty of tandem deaths do to a struggling rescue. Another thing that is for sure, rescue divers are trained to NOT put themselves in danger.
Should I find myself in the unfortunate position to need to rescue someone, I can assure you I will not be daunted by the task and will perform as trained. Should I find myself in the situation where someone wants to kill themselves, sorry they aren't taking me with them.

[Thalassamania]

I just want to make sure that it's clear to divers of all experience levels reading this thread that just because Thal can use his judgment and experience to haul someone up, doesn't mean everyone should do the same, even under similar circumstances, without training.
I know that I can do it because I do the only things better than taking a good class and practicing: I teach it regularly (it's part of our entry level course) and I play victim for other instructors whenever I have the chance.

[TheAquaticApe]

,especially since I'm not in any position to do so and it's not in my nature. I'll genuflect to Thal's experience as he's been diving longer than I've been alive.

Do what you can to the best of your ability.

[Thalassamania]

I'd pass the complement on to those whose shoulders I was lucky enough to be permitted to stand on: Lloyd Austin, Lee Somers, Walt Hendricks, Sr., Jim Stewart and to those I learned the most from, my students.

[mrlipis]

Aquaticape,

Thanks for teaching me how to spell genuflect. :-)

[TheAquaticApe]

But I had to look it up myself first. ;)

[rubicon]

i know who this person is. she is a good friend of a friend, he ask me if i could find out more information. sounds like narcosis. going deep on a wall by accident is not uncommon. this is where buddy system is very important. something like this can happen very fast, until i get all the facts i don't want to put blame on the divemaster or instructor.

[Riger]

I don't even know what genuflect means [-]and I am not gonna look it up[/-].

My wife and I made friends with a fellow diver on a live-aboard last year and it turned out that he was a DM/Instructor. We both appreciated his degree of knowledge and the advice he imparted from time to time and the manner in which he delivered them.

We asked him to join us on the next live-aboard we did and, paid for it (after the fact) as a surprise for him. We are now considering another trip and are probably going to pay for his trip with the advance notice that he will act as a DM for us.

My wife and I have AOW and about 70 dives each but are finding that this is the real learning phase of our diving. I think the concept of having a DM, not only to watch over you but also to "refine" things about your diving is a real advantage (if it can be afforded).

I know that this deviates from the focus of this thread, but irrespective of all the posturing that happens here from time to time, this thread and this board provide a huge opportunity to get (new) perspective on many aspects that can/will improve my survivability underwater and diving experience as a whole. (aka: a virtual and free DM)

Best Regards
Richard

I

[Riger]

i know who this person is. she is a good friend of a friend, he ask me if i could find out more information. sounds like narcosis. going deep on a wall by accident is not uncommon. this is where buddy system is very important. something like this can happen very fast, until i get all the facts i don't want to put blame on the divemaster or instructor.

Do you mean the DM or the Victim?

Best Regards
Richard

[stadevene]

The subject of his post is "missing scuba diver" so that's who I believe he's referring to.

[rubicon]

mrs. wood is whom i am referring too. this has been an informative thread, interesting to have the actual folks who were on the dive responding.

[Riger]

The subject of his post is "missing scuba diver" so that's who I believe he's referring to.

Indeed.

(I really need to apply the 2 coffee rule before responding on the forums in the morning.)

Best Regards
Richard

[Doc Intrepid]

mrs. wood is whom i am referring too. this has been an informative thread, interesting to have the actual folks who were on the dive responding.Welcome to ScubaBoard.

Please note that with respect to "the folks who were on the dive responding", per your above quote, they stopped posting any additional relevant details around page 2.

No doubt for reasons that will be very clear to any forum participants with any litigation background or experience.

The thread offers a great deal of indirectly-related information and plausible lessons learned, but very little in the way of any more complete explanation of this incident.

May Mrs. Wood rest in peace.

Doc

[pilot fish]

Victim's narcosis or not, isn't it reasonable to assume that a Dive Master,[ she did hold that cert, right? ] that has been hired as a dive bud should be responsible for the safety of the person they were hired to dive with? Why was the victim allowed to go deep enough for narcosis to even be a possibilty? Isn't a dive master trained in rescue and would know enough that if all else fails, you reach around for the tank value and inflate your BC to get the person to the surface? There have been reports here, hope I read that correctly, that DM was too far away from the victim. That's basic stuff. I don't get it?

[DandyDon]

Victim's narcosis or not, isn't it reasonable to assume that a Dive Master,[ she did hold that cert, right? ] that has been hired as a dive bud should be responsible for the safety of the person they were hired to dive with? Why was the victim allowed to go deep enough for narcosis to even be a possibilty? Isn't a dive master trained in rescue and would know enough that if all else fails, you reach around for the tank value and inflate your BC to get the person to the surface? There have been reports here, hope I read that correctly, that DM was too far away from the victim. That's basic stuff. I don't get it?
Yeah, I think that kinda sums it up. I don't know what all the other posts are about really - altho it did take a while to establish that as the case....

[pilot fish]

Was it a CAUSE or CONTRIBUTING factor?:confused:

Yeah, I think that kinda sums it up. I don't know what all the other posts are about really - altho it did take a while to establish that as the case....

[shoredivr]

There's also reason to believe that the diver contributed to this incident, first by failing to disclose information about her stroke
I *might* agree to taking a new diver who is 67 years old and just had a stroke a month ago .


As far as I recall in this long thread, it was speculation only that the diver might have had a stroke.

[DennisS]

As far as I recall in this long thread, it was speculation only that the diver might have had a stroke.

Yes, it was only speculation that she was a stroke victim

[jayjoans]

No, it was not speculation. My friend was very familiar with Mrs. Wood, he worked with her professionally. He reported that she had a stroke recently, he did not mention the severity. He also mentioned that in normal life she had an aggressive manner, hearing that she was agitated and reacted the way she did during this mishap was not completely out of character for her.

Whether or not the DM acted appropriately or not has been argued well on this thread. For my money, the possibility of another stroke episode at depth makes the most sense to me. Often a symptom of stroke is combativeness and confusion. I don't think it was suicide, I think she was struggling with a pre-existing condition that got much worse at the wrong time. It may be that she felt this might be her last chance ever to dive, her husband was concerned for her safety and they found a compromise in hiring a DM to be her buddy "just in case". From what I was told by a friend of hers, she rarely took no for an answer and her strength of personality was high.

Whether or not the DM acted appropriately is another matter.


Clarification: it IS speculation that she had a stroke on the dive, it is not speculation that she had a stroke in recent months.

[miketsp]

Wow, I just managed to read through this whole tortuous thread.

One of the things that strikes me as a little strange is that various experienced posters made reference to "grab the tank valve and ascend with positive buoyancy".

This isn't always as easy as stated. It's quite probable that the DM had already deflated (at least partially) in order to swim down fast to the victim.
Once you're at 140' descending fast you really need to start pushing air in fast to get back to neutrality because of the increasing bladder compaction with depth. It was mentioned that the DM was female and petite so she may well have have been diving a small female style BC with limited lift even when full.
Over the years I've used BCs with extremely varying inflation rates when you press the inflator button and I've read various accident reports where divers who left inflation too late were unable to get enough air back into their BC fast enough to overcome increasing ambient pressure and continued to descend.
Those of us that regularly dive deeper know that you feed in air as you go down to control descent rate and don't let things get out of control.

Rescue courses are normally carried out at shallower depths where inflator flow rates are not so critical and reestablishing positive buoyancy at 60' or so or even starting with zero vertical velocity because you're both on the bottom is not an issue.

If you have a model of BC that has a limited to moderate inflator flow rate, reestablishing neutrality for 2 divers going down fast at 140' may well be impossible.

And just because you have a high capacity wing doesn't necessarily mean the inflator is correctly dimensioned for it. My large wing has the slowest inflator out of all those I've ever used. In contrast my BC that I use for most of my diving has a very high fill rate.

[Cave Diver]

I don't think it was suicide, I think she was struggling with a pre-existing condition that got much worse at the wrong time. It may be that she felt this might be her last chance ever to dive, her husband was concerned for her safety and they found a compromise in hiring a DM to be her buddy "just in case". From what I was told by a friend of hers, she rarely took no for an answer and her strength of personality was high.

Whether or not the DM acted appropriately is another matter.

Any idea if the DM/Dive Op was informed of this prior to diving?

[ScubaSteve]

I really hope we do not get into the whole debate again but miketsp....you need to remember that a DM should be equipped in such a manner that they can correct problems. A BC or wing with sufficient lift to get a troubled negative diver up is one and sufficient weight to keep a positive diver down is another.

BTW...this comes from a non-dive PRO so take it for what it is worth :D

[shoredivr]

Clarification: it IS speculation that she had a stroke on the dive, it is not speculation that she had a stroke in recent months.

Thanks, Jayjoans that's what I was referring to.

*edit* Thanks for the additional information in you post.

[mikemath]

I really hope we do not get into the whole debate again but miktsp....you need to remember that a DM should be equipped in such a manner that they can correct problems. A BC or wing with sufficient lift to get a troubled negative diver up is one and sufficient weight to keep a positive diver down is another.

Agreed, preventative measures are always better. However, in an emergency, you only have the resources on hand and you must do the best you can with them. I didn't read miketsp's post as implying that this absolves the DM of responsibility. However, a lot of people have been basically saying that the failure of the DM was a failure to act effectively. Miketsp raises the possibility that the failure may have been to prepare properly, which made effective action difficult or impossible. On one hand, we could say it doesn't matter which, since a diver is dead as a result regardless of cause. However, we're all trying to take away some knowledge and knowing all the possible factors is important. I personally hadn't considered inflator rate at depth to be a major factor before, but it certainly could be the case. Especially when new divers are often weighted slightly negative, added to the lower suit displacement from being at 140'. A slow inflator or small BC could have made it impossible to fix the situation. Is there any evidence that the DM tried to fin up with the diver in addition to fixing the inflator?

[ScubaSteve]

I suppose I can see what you are saying mikemath (and also miketsp). I read it differently but can possibly see that side. I am not saying that the DM did or did not do anything though. Just that I see how the context of the post could be taken differently.

But do remember, while the DM would be inflating their BC/Wing through what might be an undersized hose, they would also be kicking like heck upwards so there already is a counter force to the sinking.....any additional lift from the BC/Wing would be on top of that. So, impossible is something that I think would only be "achieved" simply because of the late depth that this all started and the possible "personal maximum safe rescue depth" that the DM might have in their mind.

[Web Monkey]

Once you're at 140' descending fast you really need to start pushing air in fast to get back to neutrality because of the increasing bladder compaction with depth. It was mentioned that the DM was female and petite so she may well have have been diving a small female style BC with limited lift even when full.


If your inflator can't keep up with your descent rate, it's either broken, incorrectly designed or you're massively overweighted.

However in any case, that was not the problem here, since the DM went down, had some sort of contact with the diver, then ascended. This indicates that the DM's equipment was working properly.

If the DM had the problem you describe, this would have been a double fatality.

Terry

[pilot fish]

Let me make sure I undetrstand what you are saying, are you saying that a diver should put some air in thier BC when decending at or near 140 ft because they might not be able to get enough air in the BC, due to ambient water pressure, to lift them faster enough if they need to ascend quickly? This is the first I'm hearing of this?


Wow, I just managed to read through this whole tortuous thread.

One of the things that strikes me as a little strange is that various experienced posters made reference to "grab the tank valve and ascend with positive buoyancy".

This isn't always as easy as stated. It's quite probable that the DM had already deflated (at least partially) in order to swim down fast to the victim.
Once you're at 140' descending fast you really need to start pushing air in fast to get back to neutrality because of the increasing bladder compaction with depth. It was mentioned that the DM was female and petite so she may well have have been diving a small female style BC with limited lift even when full.
Over the years I've used BCs with extremely varying inflation rates when you press the inflator button and I've read various accident reports where divers who left inflation too late were unable to get enough air back into their BC fast enough to overcome increasing ambient pressure and continued to descend.
Those of us that regularly dive deeper know that you feed in air as you go down to control descent rate and don't let things get out of control.

Rescue courses are normally carried out at shallower depths where inflator flow rates are not so critical and reestablishing positive buoyancy at 60' or so or even starting with zero vertical velocity because you're both on the bottom is not an issue.

If you have a model of BC that has a limited to moderate inflator flow rate, reestablishing neutrality for 2 divers going down fast at 140' may well be impossible.

And just because you have a high capacity wing doesn't necessarily mean the inflator is correctly dimensioned for it. My large wing has the slowest inflator out of all those I've ever used. In contrast my BC that I use for most of my diving has a very high fill rate.

[Cave Diver]

Let me make sure I undetrstand what you are saying, are you saying that a diver should put some air in thier BC when decending at or near 140 ft because they might not be able to get enough air in the BC, due to ambient water pressure, to lift them faster enough if they need to ascend quickly? This is the first I'm hearing of this?

No.

Because the air in the bladder compresses at depth and reduces the volume of the BC, you need to add more air in while descending so that you don't have to add it all in when you get to your target depth. The more you have to add at depth, the longer it will take to achieve neutral/positive bouyancy again.

Failure to keep up with this decreasing volume is the reason why you see so many divers post here about ending up 10' + deeper than they intended.

The LP hoses deliver air at about 140 psi over ambient, so it's no problem to inflate at depth, the problem is it takes time to achieve the volume necessary to maintain neutral bouyancy.

[miketsp]

If your inflator can't keep up with your descent rate, it's either broken, incorrectly designed or you're massively overweighted.



I fully agree. However as far as I'm concerned there are many BCs on the market with design deficiencies. My rear inflate fills extremely slowly while my jacket BC fills really quickly. The former is not broken, I've stripped it all down and rebuilt it, it's designed like that. Fill rate is not important until you start pushing the recreational limits and beyond and very few people pay attention to this when purchasing a BC.


However in any case, that was not the problem here, since the DM went down, had some sort of contact with the diver, then ascended. This indicates that the DM's equipment was working properly.

If the DM had the problem you describe, this would have been a double fatality.

Terry

She came up alone. If she'd stayed holding on to the victim it might have turned out differently.

[Thalassamania]

A malfunctioning BC inflator is about the most bizarre, reaching at straws, ex post facto BS, made up out of the whole cloth with no evidence what-so-ever explanation that I can imagine. Intervention by aliens is more likely (and more believable).

[DennisS]

A malfunctioning BC inflator is about the most bizarre, reaching at straws, ex post facto BS, made up out of the whole cloth with no evidence what-so-ever explanation that I can imagine. Intervention by aliens is more likely (and more believable).

Gotta think outside the box on these speculation threads:D When it comes to speculation, it's all good

[Thalassamania]

That's out of the box, down the street, around the corner, onto the interstate, into the next state, then somewhere in Mexico.

[Web Monkey]

I'm just not buying into the idea that the victim somehow prevented her own rescue.

Maybe I'm just expecting too much, but it's my opinion that anybody with a professional card should be able to get their buddy (especially an elderly woman) to the surface, even from 140'.

And even more important, anybody with a professional card should be able to keep their buddy from ever getting to 140' if it wasn't part of the dive plan.

A profession certification means by definition that there's a good chance that at some point you're going to need to save someone's butt. This means the DM should have been trained, equipped and ready to do this, especially if she accepted the task of being the buddy for a single diver.

Terry

[LeadTurn_SD]

Regarding uncontrolled descents... I've never dove the area where this accident occured, and so I'm guessing at water temps... but if we are talking about the tropics with thin wetsuits (that have less bouyancy to lose) and less ballast weight.... assuming neither diver was grossly overweighted, stopping the descent should not have been that big of an issue. You are going to be negative to be sure, but just how negative?

It might have been a factor, but my feeling is that in the tropics it should not be that big an issue (compared to if we were talking cold water, thick wetsuits, lots of ballast weight).

As a point of reference, I've been to these depths in (probably) thicker wetsuits here in Hawaii, steel 72, 10-12 lbs on a weightbelt without a BC.

Best wishes.

[stevejaz]

I'm just not buying into the idea that the victim somehow prevented her own rescue.

Maybe I'm just expecting too much, but it's my opinion that anybody with a professional card should be able to get their buddy (especially an elderly woman) to the surface, even from 140'.

And even more important, anybody with a professional card should be able to keep their buddy from ever getting to 140' if it wasn't part of the dive plan.

A profession certification means by definition that there's a good chance that at some point you're going to need to save someone's butt. This means the DM should have been trained, equipped and ready to do this, especially if she accepted the task of being the buddy for a single diver.

Terry

I can't remember for sure, but didn't the DM notice the diver at 80' and she was at 60'? If that's the case, I'm assuming the DM would have reached her pretty quickly, let's say between 90 and 100' if the diver had a pretty fast rate of decent. Then, they interact on one level or another for the next 40' with the diver reportedly resisting. Now they've both dumped there air at one point or another. The DM to decend quickly and the diver in a defiant reaction to rescue or assistance. I'd imagine this could make for a very difficult recovery in a potentially hostile situation especially if the DM is 1. overweighted as they often do 2. had a small BC. Granted there is always the DM's weight belt but as I understand it, that is a last ditch effort and if there is a fight of sorts going on, that may be a bit difficult to get to on the other diver. I could certainly understand the DM not ditching hers at it sounds like that goes against training and is understandably not an action they'd want to resort to, especially with a diver that is fighting you and may get away from you.

Now, as for the petite DM, I'm the one that brought that up as one of there DM's is very petite, but we don't know if that was the DM.

Steve

[stevejaz]

Regarding uncontrolled descents... I've never dove the area where this accident occured, and so I'm guessing at water temps... but if we are talking about the tropics with thin wetsuits (that have less bouyancy to lose) and less ballast weight.... assuming neither diver was grossly overweighted, stopping the descent should not have been that big of an issue. You are going to be negative to be sure, but just how negative?

It might have been a factor, but my feeling is that in the tropics it should not be that big an issue (compared to if we were talking cold water, thick wetsuits, lots of ballast weight).

As a point of reference, I've been to these depths in (probably) thicker wetsuits here in Hawaii, steel 72, 10-12 lbs on a weightbelt without a BC.

Best wishes.

I just returned from Maui and was in the Bahamas in November. In Maui, all of our DM's wore full wetsuits and most had hoods, unsure of the thickness. Water temps in the low to mid 70's. Bahamas, all wore fulls and again some with hoods with water temps being about the same.

[mikemath]

A malfunctioning BC inflator is about the most bizarre, reaching at straws, ex post facto BS, made up out of the whole cloth with no evidence what-so-ever explanation that I can imagine. Intervention by aliens is more likely (and more believable).

Hmm, intervention by aliens...does seem plausible ;) In seriousness, it takes a volume of air in a BC to compensate for a given level of negative buoyancy. An inflator hose provides the air to change the volume by a set rate at a given depth. However, the volume of the air already in the BC decreases with depth. Depending on the rate of descent and the amount of volume needed to establish neutral buoyancy, it seems at least theoretically possible to descend so fast that the increased volume of air provided by the BC inflator is completely offset by the decreased volume from additional pressure. I do not think that is what happened here. However, in a situation where time is critical, couldn't a fast descent rate have slowed the rate at which neutral buoyancy could be achieved?

I haven't ever tried inflating as fast as I could while in a rapid descent at 140' (and I don't intend to). Does anyone have any related experience about whether the rate of descent could have compounded the problems in the situation?

[redgym]

Interesting--that's unexpected for me as a standard operating procedure for supervising a newly certified diver. I'm probably betraying my Northern California experience bias again, but I haven't seen that sort of direct control applied to new divers. How widespread is this practice and what is the experience level you would require of a diver before observing them from nearby instead of in direct contact?

Also, it hasn't been clear from the posts, but it's possible this DM was responsible for both the victim and her husband. Should you link hands with both?

I am a newbie with only one dive trip (Moorea and Bora Bora) behind me. The dive shop in Moorea took my wife and I on shallow refresher dive before the other dives. On the other dives, I was somewhat surprised at how little attention the DM paid to me knowing that I was newly certified. Many times I felt that my wife and I were on our own following along behind the the DM (my wife is AOW but hadn't dove for a couple years) That said, I've never had bouyancy issues. On one of my certification dives, my weights kept following out of my BCD and I was able to keep myself down. This was after the instructor checked my weights to make sure they were in properly, the BCD was defective.

[splzero]

I am a newbie with only one dive trip (Moorea and Bora Bora) behind me. The dive shop in Moorea took my wife and I on shallow refresher dive before the other dives. On the other dives, I was somewhat surprised at how little attention the DM paid to me knowing that I was newly certified. Many times I felt that my wife and I were on our own following along behind the the DM (my wife is AOW but hadn't dove for a couple years) That said, I've never had bouyancy issues. On one of my certification dives, my weights kept following out of my BCD and I was able to keep myself down. This was after the instructor checked my weights to make sure they were in properly, the BCD was defective.


I think people tend to put alot of responsibility on the dive master. If you just got certified you should pay for a private dive master if you dont feel comfortable in the water yet. You should'nt rely on anyone else but yourself in scuba diving. If there is a full boat of say 30 people how will the general dive master watch everyone?

[Thalassamania]

When I take a week to go skiing I always take a private lesson the afternoon of my first day on the slopes (and I ski fairly well). It puts me in proper perspective for the rest of the week. The same approach for diving might serve, the problem is finding an instructor that you know you could learn something useful from.

[redgym]

I think people tend to put alot of responsibility on the dive master. If you just got certified you should pay for a private dive master if you dont feel comfortable in the water yet. You should'nt rely on anyone else but yourself in scuba diving. If there is a full boat of say 30 people how will the general dive master watch everyone?

I didn't write that I put blame on the DM or felt uncomfortable in the water. I wrote that I was surprised how little attention was given to me as a newbie in response to the posts suggesting that DM's should hold hands with a newly certified diver.

[pilot fish]

I am so glad to learn that fact. Thanks. I had no idea, nor have I heard it ever discussed. Makes a lot of sense, now that I think of it. When I was at 138 ft and wanted to get up to 100 ft kind of quickly, I overshot my depth, I just started finning. Never used my bc for lift. Actually I think my bc was empty of air?


No.

Because the air in the bladder compresses at depth and reduces the volume of the BC, you need to add more air in while descending so that you don't have to add it all in when you get to your target depth. The more you have to add at depth, the longer it will take to achieve neutral/positive bouyancy again.

Failure to keep up with this decreasing volume is the reason why you see so many divers post here about ending up 10' + deeper than they intended.

The LP hoses deliver air at about 140 psi over ambient, so it's no problem to inflate at depth, the problem is it takes time to achieve the volume necessary to maintain neutral bouyancy.

[pilot fish]

Is she still leading divers on dives? Is she still a DM, working for that Dive Op?:confused:


I'm just not buying into the idea that the victim somehow prevented her own rescue.

Maybe I'm just expecting too much, but it's my opinion that anybody with a professional card should be able to get their buddy (especially an elderly woman) to the surface, even from 140'.

And even more important, anybody with a professional card should be able to keep their buddy from ever getting to 140' if it wasn't part of the dive plan.

A profession certification means by definition that there's a good chance that at some point you're going to need to save someone's butt. This means the DM should have been trained, equipped and ready to do this, especially if she accepted the task of being the buddy for a single diver.

Terry

[LeadTurn_SD]

Maybe I'm just expecting too much, but it's my opinion that anybody with a professional card should be able to get their buddy (especially an elderly woman) to the surface, even from 140'.

Your expectations are right on the money in my opinion.

And even more important, anybody with a professional card should be able to keep their buddy from ever getting to 140' if it wasn't part of the dive plan.

Yep.

A profession certification means by definition that there's a good chance that at some point you're going to need to save someone's butt. This means the DM should have been trained, equipped and ready to do this, especially if she accepted the task of being the buddy for a single diver.

Terry

Another big YES to that.

Best wishes.

[Web Monkey]

You should'nt rely on anyone else but yourself in scuba diving. If there is a full boat of say 30 people how will the general dive master watch everyone?

Unfortunately, there are a number of recent fatalities on "Guided Dives" and this one with the diver having a DM for a buddy.

The short answer is:


The DM can't watch everything.
Even if he says he can he can't.
Even if you hire the DM to be your personal buddy, you're can't be certain about his judgement or actions or what level of rescuing you'll be getting if Something Bad happens.

If a buddy is part of your safety plan, bring a trusted buddy with you.

If you don't have a trusted buddy, you need to be capable of handling the dive solo from start to finish, including navigating back to the boat and being found in case you can't find the boat.

You won't be diving solo, but need to be able to take care of yourself as if you were, because you can't rely on anybody you didn't bring with you.

Terry

[pilot fish]

Why hire a DM as a dive bud if they can't or won't assist you in times of trouble? What are they getting paid for, and what is it they THINK they are supposed to do? Is this just UW companionship?

[Thalassamania]

The bottom line is that a DM today ain't what he use to be ... he's a DG instead. Which creates a major problem, today's diver is less prepared to dive without leadership supervision and today's leaders are less equipped to provide the required leadership, that's what we are seeing in the recent rash of incidents. Mark my words ... they are going to continue.

What's a new diver to do, except make sure that when they rent-a-buddy that the buddy has been diving since, at least say, the mid-1980s?

[mikemath]

The bottom line is that a DM today ain't what he use to be ... he's a DG instead. Which creates a major problem, today's diver is less prepared to dive without leadership supervision and today's leaders are less equipped to provide the required leadership, that's what we are seeing in the recent rash of incidents. Mark my words ... they are going to continue.

What's a new diver to do, except make sure that when they rent-a-buddy that the buddy has been diving since, at least say, the mid-1980s?

Newbies in most sports don't know what they don't know. Certification agencies could help by ensuring "how to identify an effective divemaster/dive operator" is covered during training. A website for dive operator/instructor reviews would be useful if enough of the community contributed.

Regarding 25+ year veteran divers acting as DMs, I haven't seen many myself. There needs to be a more accessible answer for a sport that continues to grow and attract new participants.

[DandyDon]

Newbies in most sports don't know what they don't know. Certification agencies could help by ensuring "how to identify an effective divemaster/dive operator" is covered during training. A website for dive operator/instructor reviews would be useful if enough of the community contributed.

Regarding 25+ year veteran divers acting as DMs, I haven't seen many myself. There needs to be a more accessible answer for a sport that continues to grow and attract new participants.
I don't think you're going to see agencies doing much about quality in the field, nor are you going to find many 20 yr veteran DMs.

[Thalassamania]

Newbies in most sports don't know what they don't know. Certification agencies could help by ensuring "how to identify an effective divemaster/dive operator" is covered during training. A website for dive operator/instructor reviews would be useful if enough of the community contributed.

Regarding 25+ year veteran divers acting as DMs, I haven't seen many myself. There needs to be a more accessible answer for a sport that continues to grow and attract new participants.I wish that there was, the agency answer is just, "well ... they are certified, aren't they?" We can see that's just so much horse pucky. So what to do? On a personal level I will guarantee you that if you dive as my buddy your body will make it to the surface or neither of us will, but I suppose that's kinda hard to make a contractual duty. There's also to the problem that at my age I'm MUCH, MUCH, more expensive than your average 18 year old DM ... but you get what you pay for and what's your life worth?

[boulderjohn]

Whew!

I had paid no attention to this thread until I spent the last few hours perusing it. Having read it all, I am still baffled.

First of all, can a reasonably skilled instructor in contact with a diver who does not want to be brought to the surface successfully overcome that resistance? Of course! I honestly don't see a question here. The idea that only specially trained scientific divers can pull off such a feat is absurd. If I were in that situation and did not bring the diver up, I would be humiliated and depressed to the point that I would need serious therapy.

The opposite is usually the problem. I am thinking of a specific situation in which a diver in an AOW class had a heart attack at depth, threw away her regulator (the illusion it was not giving her air), jacked her BCD, and headed up. The instructor tried to stop her, lost his grip for a second, and she was gone. Going down? Not the same thing at all.

So that part of the tale makes no sense to me at all. Because I can't believe that the instructor could not bring her up, and because there were no actual witnesses to this part of the event that we know of, I reserve judgment as to whether or not it actually happened.

I still don't think we know everything. For example, I never saw a definitive answer to the question as to whether the instructor/DM was hired for only the wife or for the husband as well. If the latter is true, where was he? If they were supposed to be together, where was he? There was a very confusing post early on that suggested he may have had problems that prevented him from descending properly, which may have put the DM between the two. If so, then that is a different issue, because the DM should have made sure that they descended together. (If your buddy has a problem descending, then it is your obligation to stay with your buddy.)

In short, despite the mind-numbing number of posts, I don't think we know enough yet to draw real conclusions, and repeating the same arguments over and over again will not add to our knowledge.

[Thalassamania]

You're right ... stopping the bolt to the surface is the real problem, one that can be very, very hard to solve.

[Web Monkey]

Why hire a DM as a dive bud if they can't or won't assist you in times of trouble? What are they getting paid for, and what is it they THINK they are supposed to do? Is this just UW companionship?

Beats me.

You would have to ask them.

Terry

[Doc Intrepid]

"The dive boat (White Bungie) had three Instructor certified divers aboard. 1. Was the Dive leader. 2. Had an AOW course and was tutoring the deep dive segment. 3. Was hired in the role of private DM. Also aboard was the Captain (For information, who i'm told also holds PADI DM status). There was no Fin Photo photographers aboard. All of whom are, also, of instructor status."The "DM" was an Instructor, not a Divemaster, who had been hired to escort Mrs. Wood. (According to Dantheengineer, based on interviews with staff, see post #163)

"About 18-20 mins into the dive, instructor 3, who is at an approximate depth of 60', sees Mrs. Wood at the considerably lower depth of 80'. She taps on her tanks and upon achieving Mrs Wood's attention signals her to ascend to her own depth. She is ignored. After further attempts to attract Mrs Wood's attention fail, the instructor descends and again communicates the need to ascend. At this stage Mrs. Wood proceeds to physically push instructor 3. away. Left with little choice but to try to over power Mrs. Woods, 3. starts to inflate her BCD. In response, Mrs. Wood starts to vent air from the BC via the shoulder dump valve. This altercation continues to an approximate depth of 140' at which point 3. decides to break contact due to the obvious ineffectiveness of her input and safety concerns at the depth being in excess of RDP's. With body language exhibiting anger and aggression, Mrs Wood descents out of sight, still dumping air from the shoulder valve as she goes."Even accounting for selective recollection, it would seem that the victim deliberately contributed to the outcome - not direct cause, perhaps (speculation is a great thing), but contributory negligence. According to interviews, the two divers were in physical contact with one another between estimated depths of 80 down to 140 fsw. How many seconds might that require? Specifically, the victim:
1. Failed to respond to hired professional (at a depth between 60' and 80' est.);
2. Physically pushes the hired professional away;
3. Fails to swim to the wall and grab onto it to stop descent;
4. Vents BCD while 'rescuer' tries to establish positive bouyancy, etc.

Certainly the victim could have been suffering from either a mental (narcosis) or medical (stroke) condition leading to this behavior. Nevertheless, it is not one single refusal to act in a rational manner, but a series of (ultimately self-destructive) behaviors that collectively contributed to the outcome.

"She looked to be 47 to 52 I dnot know her experience level was."Terry, ...stop calling her "elderly" for gods sake! She was younger than I am.

;)

Even in my pre-geezerly condition I could put up a tussle if sufficiently aggravated.

I'm not blaming the victim. (I'm engaging in rife speculation...)

I'm simply pointing out that one reasonable explanation is that neither participant is entirely responsible, but that both of them contributed to the ultimate outcome...to varying degrees.

[Web Monkey]

Terry, ...stop calling her "elderly" for gods sake! She was younger than I am.


I'm pretty certain that somewhere in the thread, someone said she was in her late 60's (68?). However I'm not going to go back and look for it. It doesn't really matter much anyway, but I'll stop calling her elderly.

Terry

[Web Monkey]

Even in my pre-geezerly condition I could put up a tussle if sufficiently aggravated.

I'm not blaming the victim. (I'm engaging in rife speculation...)

I'm simply pointing out that one reasonable explanation is that neither participant is entirely responsible, but that both of them contributed to the ultimate outcome...to varying degrees.

The DM (instructor) still needs to be able to handle this. What if she was an OW student? Can the instructor just let a student die because she pushes him/her away?

Terry

[Doc Intrepid]

The DM (instructor) still needs to be able to handle this. What if she was an OW student? Can the instructor just let a student die because she pushes him/her away?I wouldn't argue that the instructor/DM was blameless.

(Which is probably why all the principles in this tragedy have stopped posting to the thread...)

I'm simply saying that panicked divers have killed would-be rescuers in the past; and that no matter how hard a hired professional may try, a sufficiently combative and non-cooperative diver (descending rapidly from 140' on down below 170') might cause that rescuer to be unsuccessful.

I'm advancing the idea that given what has been posted, a reasonable conclusion might involve recognizing some level of culpability on the part of the non-cooperative victim, who (seemingly, based on what has been posted,) engaged in not just one but a series of actions that were not rational given the circumstances.

For whatever reason...

[Cave Diver]

I'm pretty certain that somewhere in the thread, someone said she was in her late 60's (68?). However I'm not going to go back and look for it. It doesn't really matter much anyway, but I'll stop calling her elderly.

Terry

It was mentioned here, and I think by someone else as well.

Public records of the city where she'd worked show her retirement notice and the news stories all say she was 68 - altho those could possible be based on the same initial story that could have included a typo.

[bsee65]

I just did a rescan of the thread to check some facts. To summarize some things for the late entrant and those going back and forth on things:

The "trouble" started with the DM at 60' and the victim at 80'. The claim is that the victim was below and the DM was unaware until signaled by another diver. The DM attempted tank banging and then followed when the victim didn't respond. Contact was made by 100' and the DM and victim remained in contact to 140', at which point the DM ceased to attempt rescue. During the contact, the victim is said to have resisted assistance and pushed away the DM. People have been talking about initiating a rescue at 140', but that's not the case here. The rescue was initiated in the 80-100' depth range and lack of effective action allowed it to continue to 140'.

By the accounts, a pair of divers were at 60' and told the DM that she had lost contact with her buddy. Someone claimed visibility in the range of 100'. That being the case, that pair of divers were in position to see what went on between the DM and the victim. Whether or not they stayed in position or watched the events unfold has not been presented, nor have that pair of divers posted here. There may be eye witnesses to the whole event, but we don't know.

The question of the DM's role remains a question to me. Two parties say that the DM was specifically hired to buddy with the victim. Another says that the DM was hired by the victim and her husband jointly. I tend to believe the former, but the DM may have thought she had responsibility for the husband as well, or that catering to both might improve their enjoyment of the dive as well as her tip.

There is also some question as to whether the DM was hired for this job by choice, or required by the dive operator. The question has been asked and assumptions were made that it was a requirement, but no answer has been given.

The age of the victim was given as 68 in one place, and MEG DIVER said he thought she was around 50. I don't know that anyone has come back to conclusively resolve that question.

[Thalassamania]

I'm simply saying that panicked divers have killed would-be rescuers in the pastCan you cite a case?

[Riger]

What has not been clarified yet, are the circumstances under which the DM was hired by or imposed upon the diver.

(Some areas of speculation follow);

If an issue with the 68 year old lady was "discovered" that warranted a DM, and the operator imposed the DM requirement, then both the DM and the diver may have had short notice of this relationship and both may have been "miffed" with the idea. Whilst it has not been said with certainty, it appears as though this was not a choice made by the diver or the DM. In theory if you are paid to to the job you are hired, but in reality, it may have been the operator that put the requirement out there telling the couple that the wife could not dive without a DM and the DM just doing what they were told.

Regarding the prior stroke issue; Surely if it was the stroke history that was cause for a DM being required, then the operator should have required an MD check not a DM checking (the dive).

Sadly, it seems that our avenues of speculation are running out and that additional information is required.

Best Regards
Richard

[jkaterenchuk]

Can you cite a case?

Thailand about a month ago. You draw your own conclussions if the now deceased diver while mask clearing panicked and 13 year experienced instructor, whom has not been located and assumed deceased as well is a result of a panicked diver.

You might also want to consider how could such a thing happen to such an experienced instructor if real rescues were as easy as you have voiced your opinion on in the recent White Star Quarry incident.

Start with pg10 on this thread in which the missing divers were first reported.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/thailand/272070-lks-pattaya-bash-thread-10.html

Then seperate thread on the accident.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/thailand/284686-samaesan-diving-accident.html

John

[Thalassamania]

I have investigated well over 2,000 diving fatalities, this is the first such case I've heard of and it has no factual basis in terms of what happen to the rescuer, only speculation on the part of many who are hardly qualified to do more than speculate on the internet.

[Cave Diver]

Start with pg10 on this thread in which the missing divers were first reported.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/thailand/272070-lks-pattaya-bash-thread-10.html

Report starts at post #91. Page count may not be accurate depending on individual page viewing settings.

[Thalassamania]

I read the threads and as far I can tell we are still without a single demonstrable example of where a rescuer was done in by the victim.

[bsee65]

Well, what I think we can say is that there's always a safety margin when you dive. Things like low visibility, extreme cold, and strong currents reduce the margin. There's less of a safety margin the deeper you descend. Among the long list of things that would reduce a diver's safety margin, engaging in a rescue would be one. Engaging in a rescue definitely increases the risk to the rescuer between the physical contact, the unpredicability of a panicking target, and the sharing of resources that a rescue may entail. How much additional risk there is depends upon the circumstances and the training/competency of the divers involved.

It is certainly possible that the act of attempting a rescue could eliminate the last of the safety margin with disastrous results to the rescuer. If this never happened, there wouldn't be a diving commandmant telling rescuers that their safety comes first and not to become a second victim. That's certainly not the same thing as a victim actively causing the death of the rescuer, but I wouldn't be so confident that it hasn't ever happened just because we don't have a documented event. It certainly seems a feasible situation.

One might suggest that any rescuer done in by the resistance of the target to rescue made a mistake to allow it to occur. I can't argue with that as it is beyond my skills and experience.

[Thalassamania]

It is certainly possible that the act of attempting a rescue could eliminate the last of the safety margin with disastrous results to the rescuer. If this never happened, there wouldn't be a diving commandmant telling rescuers that their safety comes first and not to become a second victim. That's certainly not the same thing as a victim actively causing the death of the rescuer, but I wouldn't be so confident that it hasn't ever happened just because we don't have a documented event. It certainly seems a feasible situation.

One might suggest that any rescuer done in by the resistance of the target to rescue made a mistake to allow it to occur. I can't argue with that as it is beyond my skills and experience.It has occurred, with fair frequency, in swimming rescues (of swimmers). I know of no instance in which it has occurred during a scuba rescue. I believe that the "no two victim" warnings go way back into the days when many of the folks coming into diving were your more experienced water people, beach lifeguards especially. They brought this traditional beach lifeguard warning along with them, without rethinking the very different dynamics of a scuba rescue, where a victim is underwater and is rather strongly focused on getting to the surface.

Frankly, the suggestion that the rescuer is in any danger from the victim (except being dragged to the surface) seems very unfeasible to me.

[alohagal]

I too read through every post... in one fell swoop. Great information from most of you folks.
Just for clarity purposes as reported by DAN THE ENGINEER and MEG DIVER...the HUSBAND was more-or-less a third with the DM and the wife. But, mainly the DM was the buddy for the wife. The DM was a female as well as the victim. We are not sure at this point where the husband ended up when DM and 68 year old former stroke victim "wife" ended up at 140 feet when "rescue" attempt was aborted. Her bubbles were seen trailing at 170 feet. It was reported she was combative when DM approached her to ascend. Also, unclear is whether this DM was "hired" voluntarily by the couple or "forced" upon the wife by Dive OP due to health problems or recent dive inactivity. It has been speculated here that she was either 1. Narced 2. Suffered another stroke 3. Suicidal. 4. Strong personality not wanting to be bossed around by young whipper snapper.

Alas, I have learned much from the back and forth on this thread. I realize I am more naive than ever...have had a few close calls of my own....and liked diving better as an "ignorance is bliss" newbie.

[pilot fish]

Key for me is, why was DM at 60 ft and victim at 80 ft? That starts it. Buds need to be closer. Now the DM makes contact at 100 ft and is pulled down to 140ft. When first contact is made, should the DM have put air in her bc to keep from being taken down to 140 ft and latch on to some part of victim or victim's equipement? Just given what is known and reported in this thread, it would seem DM got scared that she too would be dragged down deeper and had her own panic to deal with. Now the question becomes, I think, should the DM be prepared to instantly be able to provide lift at first contact at 100 ft?

It was reported that victim was "pushing" DM away but I'm going to guess that is inaccurate. The victim could have been flailing, panicked, waving her arms and DM was too afraid to get any closer at 140 ft for fear of having reg pulled out of her mouth? Remember, all this is being observed from above? It could have been panicked actions, not resistance?

[AquaExplorer]

Because the DM "screwed the pooch", period.

[pilot fish]

Because the DM "screwed the pooch", period.


It seems that way, from what has been reported in this thread. The key, I think, is the DM being at 60 ft and victim being at 80 ft. That's how it all started. Has anyone reported why that might have been? I don't think I read that? Who's to say what they might have done at 100 ft, while being draggged down to 140 ft. Do you start thinking of your own survival at that point? Do you think, I'm not going to be a victim too? 140 ft is very deep and the possibility of having your reg pulled out is very real, and scary. Who's to say, for sure, what they would have done? Granted, if they had been at same dpeth, 60 ft, none of this would even have to be considered.:depressed:

[mikerault]

The first responsibility of any rescuer is not to become a second victim. Until we hear more than hearsay we should hold off judging the DM. Hindsight is always 20/20, we all know what we would like to think we would have done, myself included, but until we are in the same situation we just don't know.

Mike

[Cave Diver]

What's a new diver to do, except make sure that when they rent-a-buddy that the buddy has been diving since, at least say, the mid-1980s?

That's a pretty broad generalization and no guarantee of safety.

If a new diver is going to take the time to research the cert date of their rent-a-buddy, it would serve them well to ask additional questions too.

There is no "magic certification date" that guarantes or disqualifies someone as a good diver and buddy.

[Cave Diver]

Alas, I have learned much from the back and forth on this thread. I realize I am more naive than ever...have had a few close calls of my own....and liked diving better as an "ignorance is bliss" newbie.

Alohagal,

There is a learning curve. In the beginning, you don't know what you don't know and dives are filled with wonder with not much thought given to safety. As you gain experience your eyes open and you suddenly realize there are dangers to the sport you hadn't realized and for some people that warm fuzzy feeling gets replaced with a cold prickly sensation. As you continue to dive and learn, you realize that like anything else, diving is about identifying and managing the risks that are present.

People all manage the risks differently. Some do so by never diving below 60'. Some do it by seeking out the best training and most experienced mentors they can find. Eventually you'll find the balance that lets you dive safely and still enjoy every dive that works for you.

[ItsBruce]

I have investigated well over 2,000 diving fatalities, this is the first such case I've heard of and it has no factual basis in terms of what happen to the rescuer, only speculation on the part of many who are hardly qualified to do more than speculate on the internet.

Wow, I had not realized there had been that many fatalities in total!!!

[awap]

In my experience, the Caribbean DM/DG tend to instruct their divers to "follow me" and don't get in front and don't go deeper. So slipping deeper, especially intentionally, is quite simple if that is what the diver wants to do.

[Cave Diver]

Wow, I had not realized there had been that many fatalities in total!!!

Thal's been doing this awhile. ;)

[TheScubaBOB]

Frankly, the suggestion that the rescuer is in any danger from the victim (except being dragged to the surface) seems very unfeasible to me.

YouTube - Fatal Diver's Accident in Blue Hole, Dahab episode 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StTbu7UI4PU)

Granted there is some goofy TV stuff like the Tarot Cards but ignore that crap and look at how the two divers were found. Sure sounds like a failed rescue attempt.

[mrlipis]

I have investigated well over 2,000 diving fatalities,

Could you clarify investigated? Would this be on a first hand basis or would you consider this thread an investigation? I can only assume this would be a full time job for you.

I can not believe you are suggesting that a rescuer has never fallen victim. How about the Rouse's (The last dive)?

Frankly, the suggestion that the rescuer is in any danger from the victim (except being dragged to the surface) seems very unfeasible to me.

If we are talking about a trained rescuer and use the word unlikely rather than unfeasible, I would say this is fairly accurate and supports my earlier statement in regards to training. We are either dealing with an unresponsive diver or a panicked diver. In the case of the panicked diver he/she has one goal in mind, bolt to the surface. Our training would be more along the lines of keeping the diver down and or maintaining a controlled ascent. The thought or reality of dealing with a diver that is combative and doesn't want to go to the surface seems very far fetched and would not fall under the normal guidelines of a typical rescue which has become the focus of this particular incident.

[Epinephelus]

I have investigated well over 2,000 diving fatalities Two thousand!
Wow!
Lets see, if you've been doing it full time for 40 years, that's one a week. Not bad, what with travel time to the sites & all, and the timing of accidents & all.
Maybe your definition of "investigate" differs a bit from mine. Perhaps you meant "researched" what others have "investigated."
E

[shoredivr]

Wondering how far the last two posters can go out on that limb.

[mrlipis]

Is it going out on a limb to challenge that statement? I'm sure it is plausible, I would just like to know more about that process. What does an investigation consist of? How many people die a year in scuba diving accidents? 150 in the U.S. is average.

[boulderjohn]

150 in the U.S. is average.

What is your source for that figure?

The only source I have is the annual DAN report for the U.S. and Canada combined. The most recent report is from 2007, which actually focuses on 2006. Here are the changing annual averages over the time since they have been doing these reports (p. 7):

1970-1979: 123.6
1980-1989: 90.3
1990-1999: 87.7
2000-1006: 85.6

The total for 2006 was 76. The highest number ever was 147 in 1976.

[mrlipis]

I googled it. I thought it was a high number. Maybe I should have done better research. Your numbers are probably more realistic and I should have known to go to Dan's statistics. My bad.
A very good trend however, less deaths per dives.

[Thalassamania]

Please, let's stay focused on what this part of the conversation is about, the question of: "is it reasonable, based on prior incidents, for a diving leader to be afraid that a potential victim will aggressively harm him or her in the course of an attempted rescue?"

Specifically we are dealing with ground truthing this exchange:

...

I'm simply saying that panicked divers have killed would-be rescuers in the past; ...
Can you cite a case?

Now, that clarified, to continue on:

YouTube - Fatal Diver's Accident in Blue Hole, Dahab episode 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StTbu7UI4PU)

Granted there is some goofy TV stuff like the Tarot Cards but ignore that crap and look at how the two divers were found. Sure sounds like a failed rescue attempt.I never said that there were not failed rescue attempts or that there were not double fatalities, there have been both. What I said was that, unlike swimming, there has never been a case where the victim in a diving accident forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue, the concern that some on the board here are ascribing to the Instructor in this incident.
Could you clarify investigated? Would this be on a first hand basis or would you consider this thread an investigation? I can only assume this would be a full time job for you.
Yes, it was a full time job. It is generally considered good form to read people's profiles before asking questions that might be answered there.

I can not believe you are suggesting that a rescuer has never fallen victim. How about the Rouse's (The last dive)?Please read my comments before dragging in cases that have no bearing on them. I have yet to see a case where a rescuer has fallen victim to the victim.
Two thousand!
Wow!
Lets see, if you've been doing it full time for 40 years, that's one a week. Not bad, what with travel time to the sites & all, and the timing of accidents & all.
Maybe your definition of "investigate" differs a bit from mine. Perhaps you meant "researched" what others have "investigated."
E
No I mean investigated, that means original data, primary sources, not review of what others have compiled. This includes but is not limited to: reviews of all documents, discussions with witnesses, conversations with coroners, examinations of equipment when possible, etc. All as part of a full time job funded by NOAA, NIOSH, OSHA, USCG and later on, in small part, DEMA.
Is it going out on a limb to challenge that statement? I'm sure it is plausible, I would just like to know more about that process. What does an investigation consist of? How many people die a year in scuba diving accidents? 150 in the U.S. is average.Whether you've gone out on a limb or not is defined by how far you fall or how far you have to crawl back.

It may or may not be going out on a limb, per se, but it does not add to your credibility when you've not bothered to read my profile where my employment with the National Underwater Accident Data Center is mentioned.
What is your source for that figure?

The only source I have is the annual DAN report for the U.S. and Canada combined. The most recent report is from 2007, which actually focuses on 2006. Here are the changing annual averages over the time since they have been doing these reports (p. 7):

1970-1979: 123.6
1980-1989: 90.3
1990-1999: 87.7
2000-1006: 85.6

The total for 2006 was 76. The highest number ever was 147 in 1976.

I googled it. I thought it was a high number. Maybe I should have done better research. Your numbers are probably more realistic and I should have known to go to Dan's statistics. My bad.
A very good trend however, less deaths per dives.

Unfortunately, those numbers have some parameters that must be understood, as well as some other problems. The early numbers from the NUADC are for U.S. citizens, worldwide, and any nationality who died in U.S. waters, based on active searching for cases as well as alerts from a network of contacts and several newspaper clipping services. I believe the DAN data is for any nationality, and any place, but passively reported with some "medical" causes screened out. Additionally, even if you accept the numbers as valid numerators, there are no validated denominators.

[bsee65]

In my experience, the Caribbean DM/DG tend to instruct their divers to "follow me" and don't get in front and don't go deeper. So slipping deeper, especially intentionally, is quite simple if that is what the diver wants to do.

True, but it has absolutely nothing to do with this incident.

[TheScubaBOB]

I never said that there were not failed rescue attempts or that there were not double fatalities, there have been both. What I said was that, unlike swimming, there has never been a case where the victim in a diving accident forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue, the concern that some on the board here are ascribing to the Instructor in this incident.


Again, take this in light of a discussion. I'm not trying to argue, just looking to learn from those with more knowledge than myself.

Looking back at the discussion, the issue wasn't limited to forced death of rescuer at the hands of a diver but a Panicked Diver having killed a would-be rescuer.

Granted in my example you can't say for certian that whichever of the two was attempting the rescue didn't cause his own demise but the fact that the divers were holding onto each other would lead some to believe that whoever expired first (diver with gas in cylinder maybe) had a death grip on the diver attempting the rescue.

FWIW, I would think that anytime someone attempts to rescue a panicked diver at depth and the rescuer also dies that is considered a panicked diver killing the rescuer (no intent required).

But as you can see below, there was never the stipulation of the victim forceably causing the rescuer's death. I do agree that one of the theories of this thread does involve forceable resistance.

Here is the exchange as extracted from the thread:

I'm simply saying that panicked divers have killed would-be rescuers in the past
Can you cite a case?
Thailand about a month ago. You draw your own conclussions if the now deceased diver while mask clearing panicked and 13 year experienced instructor, whom has not been located and assumed deceased as well is a result of a panicked diver.

You might also want to consider how could such a thing happen to such an experienced instructor if real rescues were as easy as you have voiced your opinion on in the recent White Star Quarry incident.

Start with pg10 on this thread in which the missing divers were first reported.
LK's PATTAYA BASH THREAD

Then seperate thread on the accident.

Samaesan diving accident

John
I have investigated well over 2,000 diving fatalities, this is the first such case I've heard of and it has no factual basis in terms of what happen to the rescuer, only speculation on the part of many who are hardly qualified to do more than speculate on the internet.

[scubadeb1970]

I have been following this thread. Can anyone tell me why they can't find the body ?

[mikerault]

At x thousand feet it is cold even in the tropics. Decomposition is going to be pretty slow so she may never build up enough gas inside to overcome the weights before she gets eaten...

[boulderjohn]

Granted in my example you can't say for certian that whichever of the two was attempting the rescue didn't cause his own demise but the fact that the divers were holding onto each other would lead some to believe that whoever expired first (diver with gas in cylinder maybe) had a death grip on the diver attempting the rescue.


What makes a diving rescue different from a swimming rescue is the ability of the rescuer to inflate a buoyancy device (or drop weights), even when gripped by a panicked diver.

I have never had to do a rescue of this sort, but I had an experience during a technical diving training exercise that might be helpful to this discussion.

A diver wearing overfilled steel LP 108 doubles and a stainless steel backplate in fresh water (thus vastly overweighted without adding a pound of ditchable weight) had his mask removed for a drill and got disoriented. He felt as if he was ascending (he wasn't), and he started dumping air, causing himself to start dropping rapidly. He could not tell that he was dropping at first, so he continued to dump. I grabbed him within a second or two, and I could feel a lot of weight pulling me down. I jacked my own wing, and we started to ascend. He sensed that ascent and continued to dump air until I was able to get a hold of his hand and signal that he was OK.

The biggest problem we had was that I overshot my wing and had to start dumping air myself to keep us from shooting to the surface. (Of course, getting him back to neutral without a mask was fun, too.)

[TheScubaBOB]

I have been following this thread. Can anyone tell me why they can't find the body ?

Probably because it's a weighted body with presumably no air in the BCD so it will just get more negatively buoyant as it sinks towards the hard bottom several thousand feet down the wall.

Also when decomposition does set it and the gasses expand inside the body they will probably rupture the body cavities and excape the body during any ascent thereby rendering the body negativly buoyant again so it will drop to the bottom once more.

[Thalassamania]

Looking back at the discussion, the issue wasn't limited to forced death of rescuer at the hands of a diver but a Panicked Diver having killed a would-be rescuer.The distinction escapes me.

Granted in my example you can't say for certian that whichever of the two was attempting the rescue didn't cause his own demise but the fact that the divers were holding onto each other would lead some to believe that whoever expired first (diver with gas in cylinder maybe) had a death grip on the diver attempting the rescue.Frankly it is more likely that the rescuer was hanging on to the victim and trying to swim the victim up rather than using his BC (else he'd have been found on the surface) and suffered from CNS oxygen toxicity.

FWIW, I would think that anytime someone attempts to rescue a panicked diver at depth and the rescuer also dies that is considered a panicked diver killing the rescuer (no intent required).I would disagree, to consider that the panicked diver killed the rescuer there needs to be some form of damage actively inflicted on the rescuer by the victim, else the entire distinction is specious.

But as you can see below, there was never the stipulation of the victim forceably causing the rescuer's death. I do agree that one of the theories of this thread does involve forceable resistance.
I do not believe that either Doc Intrepid or I were subscribing to your definition, I believe that we were both on the same page.

In any case we need to keep in mind that this entire discussion is in the context of a specific incident that while perplexing does not indicate a panicked diver. The panicked diver discussion is only relevant in considering whether it was reasonably prudent for the Instructor to abandon her charge over a concern for her own safety in approaching a possibly panicked diver at 140 feet.

[bsee65]

I too read through every post... in one fell swoop. Great information from most of you folks.
Just for clarity purposes as reported by DAN THE ENGINEER and MEG DIVER...the HUSBAND was more-or-less a third with the DM and the wife. But, mainly the DM was the buddy for the wife. The DM was a female as well as the victim. We are not sure at this point where the husband ended up when DM and 68 year old former stroke victim "wife" ended up at 140 feet when "rescue" attempt was aborted. Her bubbles were seen trailing at 170 feet. It was reported she was combative when DM approached her to ascend. Also, unclear is whether this DM was "hired" voluntarily by the couple or "forced" upon the wife by Dive OP due to health problems or recent dive inactivity. It has been speculated here that she was either 1. Narced 2. Suffered another stroke 3. Suicidal. 4. Strong personality not wanting to be bossed around by young whipper snapper.

Alas, I have learned much from the back and forth on this thread. I realize I am more naive than ever...have had a few close calls of my own....and liked diving better as an "ignorance is bliss" newbie.


I believe the statements indicated that the husband was diving with another buddy. Additionally, there was a DM/Instructor acting as dive leader, that wasn't the job of the DM diving with the victim. According to statements, the primary DM was ahead of the victim with the rest of the group. Only the victim, her DM buddy and one other couple were lagging behind. That suggests that the husband was with his buddy and ahead of the wife with the primary DM.

[alohagal]

To clarify, i'm told the DM was charged with both Mr and Mrs. Wood. But as you go on to say restricting the charges depth to that previously agreed would have negated the danger preemptively....

Yes Steve, but the only thing i'd affiliate myself with closer than my friends is the honest truth.

I'm sorry if i paint the operation as holier than thou. (I dont know how holy you are...........:D)
Of course it's not, i can tell you stories that'd curl your hair, even under the dive hood:blinking:

You are as entitled to your opinion as am i.

I'd again draw your attention to the number of actual reported accidents/dangerous incidents related to this operation (here on the "board" or anywhere), with specific reference to the number of clients serviced.

I've only heard of three in the last year or so. Bias or not, i hear most everything.
One of these was actually on an outer island (Andros) and on a chartered boat from SC's under the direction of a local dive operation. One was a snorkeller on the shark dive and the last was a heart attack. Only the heart attack vic actually expired.

I do try to stick to the facts. If you wish to ignore my posts i'll totally understand. S'your prerogative.
As i reiterate again.....i did not actually witness any of the events and only can attest to the characters involved in this instance.

I proffer the previous "report" only for conjecture and had hoped merely to "jog" Meg's memory into either substantiating or corroboration or denial of specific instances or in the hopes that onlyhalcyon will do the same in his own time.

Here is a quote from Dan the Engineer. Not sure how useful it is to bring in MEG DIVER quotes.

[alohagal]

Okay...guess I have to go on a post hunt now!

[alohagal]

The lads and lasses around the dock have been disseminating this incident in a similar fashion to ourselves. Some points of discrepancy have arisen between the "general understanding" of the occurrence. Perhaps Meg could clarify or comment? The following is my reiteration of little more than hearsay. It is however, the closest we'll probably get to the facts of the incident. (unless Onlyhalcyon comes back to us, we hope he will).
If i've misinterpreted in anyway Meg or Halcyon, please do correct me.......(i'm damned certain those who are reading but wont/cant post'll let me have it RIGHT in the neck for getting it wrong!)

The dive boat (White Bungie) had three Instructor certified divers aboard. 1. Was the Dive leader. 2. Had an AOW course and was tutoring the deep dive segment. 3. Was hired in the role of private DM. Also aboard was the Captain (For information, who i'm told also holds PADI DM status). There was no Fin Photo photographers aboard. All of whom are, also, of instructor status.

About 18-20 mins into the dive, instructor 3, who is at an approximate depth of 60', sees Mrs. Wood at the considerably lower depth of 80'. She taps on her tanks and upon achieving Mrs Wood's attention signals her to ascend to her own depth. She is ignored. After further attempts to attract Mrs Wood's attention fail, the instructor descends and again communicates the need to ascend. At this stage Mrs. Wood proceeds to physically push instructor 3. away. Left with little choice but to try to over power Mrs. Woods, 3. starts to inflate her BCD. In response, Mrs. Wood starts to vent air from the BC via the shoulder dump valve. This altercation continues to an approximate depth of 140' at which point 3. decides to break contact due to the obvious ineffectiveness of her input and safety concerns at the depth being in excess of RDP's. With body language exhibiting anger and aggression, Mrs Wood descents out of sight, still dumping air from the shoulder valve as she goes.

Instructor 2. is returning from his deep dive and is at an approximate depth of 70' when instructor 3. approaches him and communicates the loss of her charge. Instructor 2. descends to, in excess of, 170' where he can still see a bubble trail from beneath him. He decides the danger is too great to descent and investigate further.
(Meg particularly, may remember instructor 2. as he, also, has hearing difficulties and uses two hearing aids)

Upon returning to the dive boat, the captain is alerted to the incident and radio's South Ocean base. Assistance is summarily dispatched.

Upon return to the craft, instructor 1. is informed of the situation, switches his tank from EANx to air and returns to the water.


Now i know the above is far short of admissible anywhere but this, the people's court. I dont work for or have any real ties to the operation other than it's an excellent place to dive. I know most of the staff very well and am able to say that those involved are of the highest caliber. I would also point out that the client to "report worthy" incident ratio is negligible. Do please, bear in mind that the shear number and quality of diver that comes through there is, generally, large and poor respectively. (I have, myself, witnessed some absolute pearls!)

Like DandyDon, i hesitate to comment on the likelihood of suicide, mostly for reasons of propriety. Most of what i'm hearing/reading indicates that whether premeditated or of the moment and narc'd, this poor lady did, consciously resist advice, physical assistance and professional guidance and descend below her capability. This, intentionally or not resulted in her tragic death.

Assuming the accuracy of the above, short of PADI (or other agencies) putting together a sub aqua self-defense, close combat and client mental health specialty (i shouldn't joke..$$$$$$??) i cant see what else instructor 3. could have reasonably done.
In the event that it's decided that she should have been able to overpower Mrs. Woods, i dont see that she is either qualified or certified (Thall). I'm fairly certain i'm not.

The DM (Instructor 3.) was back in the water for the first time following the incident yesterday. She is said to be very distraught and recovering from shock slowly, precisely as one would expect of any reasonable human reaction to such a traumatic occurrence.
Dan the Engineer, admittedly, third hand account.

[awap]

True, but it has absolutely nothing to do with this incident.

That was for those who were wondering how a diver could get 20 ft below a DM without being noticed. It is quite easy when it is DM leading and client following.

[Thalassamania]

One DM was leading the dive, another Instructor was supposed to be playing rent-a-buddy. The question was, how did the rent-a-buddy get so far away?

[alohagal]

From 140'? she may have lived, i guess. If the Vic was fighting off assistance in the mode i'm given to understand then she'd have fought this action too and in the process the two would have just dropped another X number of feet.

I dare say i'll hear about breathing mixes and will forward accordingly.

Cavediver, that was my first question. I believe the situation came to escalate after instructor 3. allowed sufficient respect to Mrs Wood to perform her own dive then tried to bring her back into line when she was seen to be pushing the limits. If 3. had two charges, as is understood (Mr & Mrs wood), this would explain why she was called up first before 3. descended to "hands on" her up.
Given the huge variation in skill, ability and individual style of diver a pro here is faced with, it's not unusual to access the skills visually and "go with the flow" of the diver. Most (if not all) clients resent a more complete control, these two were after all not on a resort dive.
That, coupled with the fact that in crystal clear water 20' isnt that greater distance unless it's suddenly a head start for a race...............

The procurement for a private DM, is also said to be at the very last minute. To the extent that the boat was unable to leave until Mrs Wood returned from the dive shop having procured 3. as a private DM.
With the benefit of hind sight one would surly have suggested a refresher course that would have been performed at a "bottomed" site rather than placing the responsibility upon a DM, the moral perhaps is that the Customer isn't always right.........

Again i'd reiterate that the "facts" i write related to this specific incident are not and in no way first hand, rather the communal understanding of events by those not even necessarily directly involved. I, like most of us i'm sure, await onlyhalcyon's input as the most belief worthy source of detail.

And for even further clarity...one last post from DANTHEENGINEER who WAS NOT on this dive. But has heard the scuttlebutt around the dock of the DIVE OP.

[cappyjon431]

No I mean investigated, that means original data, primary sources, not review of what others have compiled. This includes but is not limited to: reviews of all documents, discussions with witnesses, conversations with coroners, examinations of equipment when possible, etc. All as part of a full time job funded by NOAA, NIOSH, OSHA, USCG and later on, in small part, DEMA.
Whether you've gone out on a limb or not is defined by how far you fall or how far you have to crawl back.

It may or may not be going out on a limb, per se, but it does not add to your credibility when you've not bothered to read my profile where my employment with the National Underwater Accident Data Center is mentioned.

Thanks for providing this source. I have only recently perused it, and it will require some more in depth reading, but it looks like fascinating stuff. Here is the link for anyone who is interested in this type of stuff (number and nature of diving fatalities):

Rubicon Research Repository: National Underwater Accident Data Center (http://rubicon-foundation.org/dspace/handle/123456789/4063)

[pilot fish]

100 ft of Vis, one diver and one dive master assigned/hired to that diver. How does a diver get 20ft BELOW? To the side, I might understand, but below? The DM was not watching her charge. Do I read that correctly?

[Thalassamania]

The reports need to be taken in the context of their time and do suffer (in my view) from some of Schenk's and McAniff's preconceived notions (hell ... maybe some of mine too).

Categorization was the big bugaboo, for example, it took me years to convince McAniff that a guy who killed himself trying to figure out how to use an Electolung that he had stolen was not a scientific diving accident.

[Cave Diver]

100 ft of Vis, one diver and one dive master assigned/hired to that diver. How does a diver get 20ft BELOW? To the side, I might understand, but below? The DM was not watching her charge. Do I read that correctly?

I raised a similar thought many posts ago.

[Teamcasa]

I raised a similar thought many posts ago.

Heck it has only been discussed three or four times in this thread. But with over 400 posts, all the old issues will no doubt will come back around in a few dozen more posts anyway.

[alohagal]

Heck it has only been discussed three or four times in this thread. But with over 400 posts, all the old issues will no doubt will come back around in a few dozen more posts anyway.
Glad to do my part to "restart" all the issues. :D I still don't think we know where the husband really was. But, I don't see where that matters. I would like to know if the DM (Designated Muddy) was HIRED voluntarily by this couple.

[Teamcasa]

Glad to do my part to "restart" all the issues. :D I still don't think we know where the husband really was. But, I don't see where that matters. I would like to know if the DM (Designated Muddy) was HIRED voluntarily by this couple.

I doubt the DM was involuntarily hired by them.

[alohagal]

I doubt the DM was involuntarily hired by them.
It was brought up in prior recantations of this story, that the DM (Designated muddy) could have been there to "oversee" someone who had medical issues or lack of recent dive activity. I mean there were 3 DM's on this dive. So, again my point...was this a DESIGNATED Dive Master (guide/buddy) assigned as an "extra" crew member on board, or someone sought out by this couple to insure extra precaution and safety. I think it makes a difference to the chain of events and expectations perceived by all parties involved.

[stadevene]

I really think we're missing far too much of this picture to do any root cause analysis at this stage. My questions are:
- what was the true diving situation? Buddy to the wife or just a dive guide to the couple? We don't have a clear indication yet as we're heard both cases from people close to the situation.

- what was the medical situation and was there anything disclosed?

- what did the DM do at depth to try and rescue and what did the DM observe from the diver?

- What was the dive plan/instructions to the diver? My experience so far in places such as Roatan where there are a number of wall dives is the guide/DM says follow him, stay near his depth or above, and at half a tank we'll turn around and head back to the boat at a shallower depth. He'll look back frequently but by no means is he watching the divers every second as part of the guide's role (I think) is to find interesting stuff for the divers to see.

An example: on one dive we were with a guide, parents who were both instructor certified and their two 18-20 year old kids. The kids were of course fairly new and at one point they ended up many feet below us (we were ~60 and I think they were in the 80s). The guide and both parents missed this initially but got their attention and had them come up and after the dive they got a talking to about following their dive plan and following the DM/guide. I bring this up because I think it's unfair to point all fingers at the DM right now without the complete story. As I've witnessed, it doesn't take long for someone to drift away - especially with novices and on wall dives with lots of interesting things to see.

It's been an interesting read through all of the comments and if these sorts of discussions help us become better, they are worth it. I'm curious to see the final story of this one is.

[divinotter]

Boulderjohn talked about using his wing while rescuing a diver descending too fast. Thassalmania (I think - I didn't go back to check) said something like dropping the victims weights at that depth would not be the best decision. I was taught in rescue class the first thing to do when coming upon any victim is to get control & drop their weights. (I guess this would mean they aren't continuing to fight with you and you aren't going to get into a wrestling match). That said- is this the wrong strategy since if there's air in their BC it would cause an uncontrolled ascent of both? I'm trying to re-think my mental picture of how a deep rescue would go. But the first part was to get control of the victim. I am picturing a scenario with an uncooperative victim by panic, narcosis, attitude etc. I'm thinking the safest thing to do is forget about the weights for the moment and grab the tank stem - their back to you and start kicking up- using some air in my or their BC if needed. After a couple seconds, then if they are too heavy drop their weights.
The problem with rescue classes is they emphasize most people needing rescue are just in need of some contact and reassurance to stem panic or are already unconscious. Most practice is done with the victim on the bottom and with an empty BC or already on the surface pretending to panic.

[Thalassamania]

Boulderjohn talked about using his wing while rescuing a diver descending too fast. Thassalmania (I think - I didn't go back to check) said something like dropping the victims weights at that depth would not be the best decision. I was taught in rescue class the first thing to do when coming upon any victim is to get control & drop their weights. (I guess this would mean they aren't continuing to fight with you and you aren't going to get into a wrestling match). Dropping a weight belt at the surface makes sense, underwater the odds are that the victim will take off for the surface like a Trident missile ... not a good plan.
That said- is this the wrong strategy since if there's air in their BC it would cause an uncontrolled ascent of both? I'm trying to re-think my mental picture of how a deep rescue would go. But the first part was to get control of the victim. I am picturing a scenario with an uncooperative victim by panic, narcosis, attitude etc. I'm thinking the safest thing to do is forget about the weights for the moment and grab the tank stem - their back to you and start kicking up- using some air in my or their BC if needed. After a couple seconds, then if they are too heavy drop their weights.

The problem with rescue classes is they emphasize most people needing rescue are just in need of some contact and reassurance to stem panic or are already unconscious. Most practice is done with the victim on the bottom and with an empty BC or already on the surface pretending to panic.You're on the right track, get them by the valve, get moving toward the surface, dump their vest, control the ascent with yours, once at the surface inflate their vest, drop their lead. That's the way I see it. Many rescue classes are taught by people who've not thought it through; and use protocols that are wrongheadedly based on what been learned about rescuing swimmers at the surface.

[mrlipis]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlipis View Post
Could you clarify investigated? Would this be on a first hand basis or would you consider this thread an investigation? I can only assume this would be a full time job for you.

Yes, it was a full time job. It is generally considered good form to read people's profiles before asking questions that might be answered there.

I have read your profile and my question was not answered there, but thank you for answering it the latter post.

Originally Posted by mrlipis View Post
I can not believe you are suggesting that a rescuer has never fallen victim. How about the Rouse's (The last dive)?

Please read my comments before dragging in cases that have no bearing on them. I have yet to see a case where a rescuer has fallen victim to the victim.

Do to my ignorance you will have to explain to me why this case is not relevant.

You have a very impressive resume. As stated previously I have read many of your posts and respect your opinions. I could learn a lot from you, however, you have had the opportunity to either take the humble approach or the arrogant approach and unfortunately you have chosen the latter. I believe no day should pass without bettering myself. I have a thirst for knowledge and I am on this board to, unfortunately, learn from others mistakes. I will continue to read your posts and take what I can from them. My mom once told me something. If you are good at something, you don't need to tell people, they will already know.

[cappyjon431]

I am in need of some clarification here. Is the claim that there has never been a documented case of where the rescuer has fallen victim to a victim, or is the claim that there has never been a case of a dive professional (acting as a rescuer) falling victim to a victim? There is a huge difference between these two claims, and to follow the discussion i need to better understand these claims.

[Thalassamania]

I have read your profile and my question was not answered there, but thank you for answering it the latter post.From my profile: "I spent five years with the National Underwater Accident Data Center where I worked with John McAniff investigating diving accidents."

Is that somehow unclear?
I can not believe you are suggesting that a rescuer has never fallen victim. How about the Rouse's (The last dive)?

Do to my ignorance you will have to explain to me why this case is not relevant. I think I already did.
You have a very impressive resume. As stated previously I have read many of your posts and respect your opinions. I could learn a lot from you, however, you have had the opportunity to either take the humble approach or the arrogant approach and unfortunately you have chosen the latter. I believe no day should pass without bettering myself. I have a thirst for knowledge and I am on this board to, unfortunately, learn from others mistakes. I will continue to read your posts and take what I can from them. My mom once told me something. If you are good at something, you don't need to tell people, they will already know.
I've taken the rational approach if you find that arrogant - that's your trip ... not mine. One of the problems with this discussion is that I really don't feel that the kind of behavior or reaction that I expect of the Instructor is either rocket science or superhuman ... it's what I expect of the entry level divers I train. If you find that arrogant, again that speaks more to your perception of your capabilities than anything else, after all ... if I were to mention that I was able to eat without drooling (much) you'd not find that arrogant; so it's more an issue with the difference you and I have in what we perceive to be difficult. John said it really well: "First of all, can a reasonably skilled instructor in contact with a diver who does not want to be brought to the surface successfully overcome that resistance? Of course! I honestly don't see a question here. The idea that only specially trained scientific divers can pull off such a feat is absurd. If I were in that situation and did not bring the diver up, I would be humiliated and depressed to the point that I would need serious therapy." I couldn't agree more.

I suppose you find these posts (in the same thread) to be arrogant also:


"I'd pass the complement on to those whose shoulders I was lucky enough to be permitted to stand on: Lloyd Austin, Lee Somers, Walt Hendricks, Sr., Jim Stewart and to those I learned the most from, my students."
"I know that I can do it because I do the only things better than taking a good class and practicing: I teach it regularly (it's part of our entry level course) and I play victim for other instructors whenever I have the chance."

I am in need of some clarification here. Is the claim that there has never been a documented case of where the rescuer has fallen victim to a victim, or is the claim that there has never been a case of a dive professional (acting as a rescuer) falling victim to a victim? There is a huge difference between these two claims, and to follow the discussion i need to better understand these claims.This is a minuscule sidelight to the conversation. To the best of my recollection there has not been a case were the rescuer (pro or otherwise) died as a result of running afoul of a panicked diver/victim. Where were stories (in the old days) of double fatalities in caves that were a bit strange; and that were alleged to have included underwater knife fights over remaining air.

[mikemath]

I never said that there were not failed rescue attempts or that there were not double fatalities, there have been both. What I said was that, unlike swimming, there has never been a case where the victim in a diving accident forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue, the concern that some on the board here are ascribing to the Instructor in this incident.

Unfortunately I was away for the past 36 hours, so apologies to those groaning that I'm dredging up this part of the thread again. Thal, it sounds like you are saying that no victim has been proven to have actively caused the death of a would-be-rescuer. Actions a victim could plausibly do to a rescuer in their panic would include pulling their mask off, pulling their regulator from their mouth, or pinning their arms by clinging to them. None would directly (actively) cause death, but all cause additional task loading and complicate a rescue effort. Proper rescue technique (getting behind the diver) would make all of these less likely, but they could happen.

I know you mentioned something to the effect of it being arbitrary to assign blame in the absence of a victim directly causing the death of a rescuer. However, it does seem to me that there are things that the victim can do that would increase the risk of a potential rescuer's death. Something like "contributing factors" to the death of a rescuer rather than a clear, direct cause. In your experience, are there cases where a would-be rescuer has died in conditions where had he not been conducting a rescue, but performing another similarly exerting task, his death would have been extremely unlikely? If so, that would seem to establish (without quantifying) that such risks exists and could be a rational reason to abort a rescue attempt if experienced.

Whether that was the case in this thread is unknown from the information we've seen so far.

[Thalassamania]

While none jump right to mind, I'm sure that there have been people injured or killed because in the need to attempt a rescue they ventured into conditions or environments that were more hazardous than they could handle ... but then keep in mind that a few divers do that every week for a multitude of reasons.

This whole question is a red herring in this case. What we have here is a certified diving instructor who could not, due first of all to demonstrable inattention and second of all to assumable lack of skill, handle an old lady who needed to be brought to the surface.

[ItsBruce]

... there has never been a case where the victim in a diving accident forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue, ...

I'm not going to challenge Thal on that point. However, I wonder why that it is that "there has never been a case where the victim in a diving accident forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue."

One possibility is that the "victim" cannot forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue.

Another is that the rescuer follows his or her training and does not allow the victim to cause his or her death.

[DandyDon]

What are the chances that we could now agree: "A rescuing scuba diver is simply not in much danger in trying to assist or rescue another diver who may be panicked or narced" - agreed? :silly:

Speaking of the instance of the DM who had the 100+ ft encounter, not of the Inst who had the 170 ft view of bubbles below.

[jkaterenchuk]

I'm not going to challenge Thal on that point. However, I wonder why that it is that "there has never been a case where the victim in a diving accident forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue."

One possibility is that the "victim" cannot forceably caused the death of one who was attempting a rescue.

Another is that the rescuer follows his or her training and does not allow the victim to cause his or her death.

OR you miss another which is the victim and the person that attempted rescue are both dead and cannot tell you what happened and hence leave the expert accident analysts like Thal to guess what happened. Or maybe he can talk to the dead so that he does not have to draw logical conclussions from less than first hand facts like the rest of us.

Challenging him is futile as he has already professed to being an expert and stated his expert opinion so what ever you raise regardless of how plausible will be dissmissed if not inline with his expert opinion. Have you ever heard a expert admit they are wrong. About as likely as being able to prove a victim caused the death of their rescuer.

Just go back and read his replies to my presentation of the Thailand student and Instructor death about a month ago. We can never know the first hand facts because they are both dead but I think logic says that if the student had not panicked then the highly experienced instructor would not be a missing person.

OR how about this one I just came across...http://www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s090520d.html


John

[jkaterenchuk]

What are the chances that we could now agree: "A rescuing scuba diver is simply not in much danger in trying to assist or rescue another diver who may be panicked or narced" - agreed? :silly:

Speaking of the instance of the DM who had the 100+ ft encounter, not of the Inst who had the 170 ft view of bubbles below.

Even better how about we agree to disagree on this point. At least I'm done posting an opinion on it.

John

[boulderjohn]

The deaths of Chris and Chrissy Rousse has been raised several times as an example of the rescue of a panicked diver killing the rescuer. That is not really a fair description of what happened, and those extraordinary circumstances do not fit the topic of this conversation.

To begin with, both Chris (father) and Chrissy (son) made the bad decision to do an extremely difficult dive at about 230 feet on air. They were both certainly very much narced, and I would argue that narcosis was the primary trigger in their deaths.

With not much room to move in that wrecked uboat, Chrissy went in alone to search, using a cave line to find his way out (hopefully) when done. His father held the end of the line outside the sub. Something collapsed on Chrissy while he was in there. (When he was back on the boat, he said a sea monster had grabbed him--obviously some narcosis involved.) His father sensed something was wrong, went in, and he got him free. Unfortunately, he apparently lost control of the cave line. They had trouble finding their way out of the silted-out wreck and lost the path back to the entry point.

When the finally got out, they came out of a different hole that they entered. The conjecture is that they were confused (narcosis) about this and did not understand why the extra tanks they had brought for decompression were not there. (They were still at the original hole where they had left them.) Very low on air, they apparently both decided to do a direct ascent to the surface and hope for successful recompression therapy. (Their friend Bernie Chowdury had done the same thing not long before that.) In doing so, they ignored the fact that they did have one extra tank that could have bought them some time and the opportunity to get help without surfacing. (There was another diver decompressing at the time.)

Chris died almost immediately on the surface; Chrissy died in the hospital.

[pilot fish]

My memory of the story is they came out of the sub confused as to where their extra tanks were, they were about 8 ft in the other directon. Very low on air Chrissy bolted for the surface from 240 ft and his dad bolted right after him. Chris was dead at the surface and Chrissy died soon afterwards on the boat waiting fr rescue helio.

[pilot fish]

While none jump right to mind, I'm sure that there have been people injured or killed because in the need to attempt a rescue they ventured into conditions or environments that were more hazardous than they could handle ... but then keep in mind that a few divers do that every week for a multitude of reasons.

This whole question is a red herring in this case. What we have here is a certified diving instructor who could not, due first of all to demonstrable inattention and second of all to assumable lack of skill, handle an old lady who needed to be brought to the surface.


Yeah, that does sum it up. And she was a PAID DM buddy who's ONLY responsbility was to the deceased older lady diver.:shakehead:

[scubafanatic]

....too bad there's no way to make threads like this required reading (in the interest of full disclsure) for anyone considering...or being encouraged/'pushed' into becoming a DM. I remember back in my early days....as a newish diver, frequenting dive shops, loading up on new gear/classes....spending significant sums of money....being 'encouraged' to pursue the DM path.....I'd like to think the shops' motive was genuine, they perceived me as a good diver with good potential and much to offer...but I also believe there was a substantial financial incentive for them to 'flatter' me, so I'd sign up for ever more classes/training/gear and become an eternal cash-cow for them...the 'dark side' of being a DM was never addressed/emphasized !

[caseybird]

Clearly, the precipitaing factor in this incident is the difference in depth between the DM and the victim. No DM should let an assigned, dependent diver get more than 2 kicks away, and certainly no deeper than a few feet from the DM.
I've been a DM for dependent divers plenty of time. The only acceptable position is side by side, with no more than 2 foot depth difference. Believe me, my hand is on the tank valve if the diver starts drifting down. Most of the time they don't even know it.
(Just to clarify, I am often assigned to the younger student in a very well run OW program. I seem to have an affinity for it.)
We haven't discussed much what hapened before the dive.
Did the diver have an exam and a medical release before her dive? I don't know the local custom, but most dive ops don't require a medical from certified divers. In this case, the medical would have been the victim's responsibility to herself and her dive companions.
Was the DM and shop aware of her medical condition? (recent stroke).
Was there a max depth agreed on before the dive? 60 feet? 80 feet? Again, citing her lack of recent dive experience, I wouldn't let her get below 60. If I knew about her recent stroke, and if she had provided a signed medical form, PERHAPS, based on our PRE-DIVE discussion, I would have taken her on a 30 foot, hard bottom dive to ascertain her abilities.
It shouldn't have become a rescue scenario.

CF all around, leading to a lot of unnessesary heartache.

[DandyDon]

Looks like all sources have quit us...?

[pilot fish]

You nailed it, scubafanatic, it was just business with them. They do that to everyone, while they are a potential buyers of gear gear gear , classes and certs up the wazoo. Oh, man, can they charm you. Car salesmen.:shakehead:

....too bad there's no way to make threads like this required reading (in the interest of full disclsure) for anyone considering...or being encouraged/'pushed' into becoming a DM. I remember back in my early days....as a newish diver, frequenting dive shops, loading up on new gear/classes....spending significant sums of money....being 'encouraged' to pursue the DM path.....I'd like to think the shops' motive was genuine, they perceived me as a good diver with good potential and much to offer...but I also believe there was a substantial financial incentive for them to 'flatter' me, so I'd sign up for ever more classes/training/gear and become an eternal cash-cow for them...the 'dark side' of being a DM was never addressed/emphasized !

[MEG DIVER]

Looks like all sources have quit us...?

Hello Don we have not quit you ,we are now talking with Investigators on this case belive me I have not quit each day I look back with toughts of what may have taken place,I have talk with only 1 other diver thats was on this dive by email only ,the people that are investigating and doing deepwater scerches for Mrs.Wood are Dive & Marine Consultants International Inc., I talk with this investigator for nearly two hours
one day this week ,as I learn the facks I will let you all know .I will say this, sometimes even the rescuer may need to be rescued.

[ItsBruce]

... Challenging him is futile as he has already professed to being an expert and stated his expert opinion so what ever you raise regardless of how plausible will be dissmissed if not inline with his expert opinion. Have you ever heard a expert admit they are wrong. About as likely as being able to prove a victim caused the death of their rescuer.
... John

Thal is clearly an expert. I've talked to him. If I ever need an expert on a case, I would not hesitate to contact him.

And, yes, I have seen experts admit they are wrong.

[Thalassamania]

OR you miss another which is the victim and the person that attempted rescue are both dead and cannot tell you what happened and hence leave the expert accident analysts like Thal to guess what happened. Or maybe he can talk to the dead so that he does not have to draw logical conclussions from less than first hand facts like the rest of us.

Your logic can be extended to show, with the same level of probability, that the same accidents were caused by aliens with ray guns. When nothing is known then anything may be assumed.

Challenging him is futile as he has already professed to being an expert and stated his expert opinion so what ever you raise regardless of how plausible will be dissmissed if not inline with his expert opinion. Have you ever heard a expert admit they are wrong. About as likely as being able to prove a victim caused the death of their rescuer.

Yes I am an expert, since John died I likely know more about diving fatalities than just about anyone else. If that's what you consider "professed," I'll just chalk that up what seems to be your use of English as a second language. Any expert will change his or her opinion when presented with new data that requires a change, you have presented no relevant data, all you done is get huffy when no one but your two claque comrades takes seriously your amateur analysis.

Just go back and read his replies to my presentation of the Thailand student and Instructor death about a month ago. We can never know the first hand facts because they are both dead but I think logic says that if the student had not panicked then the highly experienced instructor would not be a missing person.

OR how about this one I just came across...CDNN :: Young Dive Doctor Dies Scuba Diving in Red Sea (http://www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s090520d.html)


John
As I said, amateur analysis combined with wishful thinking. Neither case fits the demands of the conversation, as John and PF point out in the Rousse case:
The deaths of Chris and Chrissy Rousse has been raised several times as an example of the rescue of a panicked diver killing the rescuer. That is not really a fair description of what happened, and those extraordinary circumstances do not fit the topic of this conversation.

To begin with, both Chris (father) and Chrissy (son) made the bad decision to do an extremely difficult dive at about 230 feet on air. They were both certainly very much narced, and I would argue that narcosis was the primary trigger in their deaths.

With not much room to move in that wrecked uboat, Chrissy went in alone to search, using a cave line to find his way out (hopefully) when done. His father held the end of the line outside the sub. Something collapsed on Chrissy while he was in there. (When he was back on the boat, he said a sea monster had grabbed him--obviously some narcosis involved.) His father sensed something was wrong, went in, and he got him free. Unfortunately, he apparently lost control of the cave line. They had trouble finding their way out of the silted-out wreck and lost the path back to the entry point.

When the finally got out, they came out of a different hole that they entered. The conjecture is that they were confused (narcosis) about this and did not understand why the extra tanks they had brought for decompression were not there. (They were still at the original hole where they had left them.) Very low on air, they apparently both decided to do a direct ascent to the surface and hope for successful recompression therapy. (Their friend Bernie Chowdury had done the same thing not long before that.) In doing so, they ignored the fact that they did have one extra tank that could have bought them some time and the opportunity to get help without surfacing. (There was another diver decompressing at the time.)

Chris died almost immediately on the surface; Chrissy died in the hospital.

My memory of the story is they came out of the sub confused as to where their extra tanks were, they were about 8 ft in the other directon. Very low on air Chrissy bolted for the surface from 240 ft and his dad bolted right after him. Chris was dead at the surface and Chrissy died soon afterwards on the boat waiting fr rescue helio.

Hello Don we have not quit you ,we are now talking with Investigators on this case belive me I have not quit each day I look back with toughts of what may have taken place,I have talk with only 1 other diver thats was on this dive by email only ,the people that are investigating and doing deepwater scerches for Mrs.Wood are Dive & Marine Consultants International Inc., I talk with this investigator for nearly two hours
one day this week ,as I learn the facks I will let you all know .I will say this, sometimes even the rescuer may need to be rescued.
Meg, thanks for the information and the photos.

[DandyDon]

.I will say this, sometimes even the rescuer may need to be rescued.
An interesting tease... :confused:

[shoredivr]

Have you ever heard a expert admit they are wrong.


Yes.


c d n n


That site is not considered to be accurate or trustworthy.

[bsee65]

Here is a quote from Dan the Engineer. Not sure how useful it is to bring in MEG DIVER quotes.


No offense to Dantheengineer, but I think you have the situation backwards. MEG DIVER is an uninterested party who was present on the dive. Dantheengineer is receiving his third party information from employees of the dive shop. Dan's information is suspect in accuracy as the parties providing it are very interested in the perception and outcome of any investigation. In short, if there are conflicting statements, I'm leaning toward those of MEG DIVER to be the more accurate.

For example, MEG tells us that the rent-a-buddy DM realized the victim was 20' below her when one of the other divers signaled her to that effect. Dan's story would have us believe that the DM spontaneously and on her own realized the fact. That certainly sounds like a minor manipulation of the facts by omission in an attempt to make the DM seem a little more with it. The truth? Either could be true. I believe someone accused Dan of "padding" his narrative as well, so I'm not the only one who questions the completeness and filtering behind his information, again through no fault of his own.

With regard to the hiring of the DM, I am willing to believe that the DM was hired by the victim and her husband. He probably put up the credit card, so yeah, they both hired her. Now, I am also leaning toward believing that she was hired specifically to buddy with and watch the victim. Even Dan's story says that they held the boat:
The procurement for a private DM, is also said to be at the very last minute. To the extent that the boat was unable to leave until Mrs Wood returned from the dive shop having procured 3.
(By "3", he meant DM #3, there were two other DM/Instructors on the boat)

The above, combined with the undisputed fact the the husband, Mr. Wood, was diving with another friend as his buddy, really suggest that the DM in question was hired to act as a personal buddy to Mrs. Wood, not as a DM in the more traditional sense.


The post I made, upon which you commented, was specifically to call out some of the important facts that were disputed between the two accounts and to get clarity on them from either or both parties if they wanted to give more thought to those particular issues. I don't claim to have authoritative knowledge of any of the events, I'm just evaluating the various statements and trying to see where they intersect and where they contradict in order to get the clearest possible picture of the events. A week and 500 posts later, we still aren't quite there.

Also, we have four information sources here, not just two. We have MEG DIVER who was on the dive, but not a direct eye witness to the event. We have Dantheengineer who is a local and has been getting data from people at the dive shop, probably including those who were on this dive. We have danclem, the OP, who seems like he may have also been on the dive, but never really specified that. We haven't heard from danclem since the first few dozen posts. Finally, we have onlyhalcyon who claims to have been an eye witness to the event, but hasn't come back to tell us anything further after the initial post. There is definitely more information to be had.

[bsee65]

Meg, thanks for the information and the photos.

Just to confirm, all MEG's photos are dated 5/5/09. Since this incident occurred on May 3rd, I'm assuming that none of these photos are from that dive. Is that correct? The last photo does seem to show three divers in close proximity with at least one diver out of frame below (interpretation based upon the bubble trail), which could line up with the facts of the incident if the camera's date was incorrectly set.

[MEG DIVER]

Just to confirm, all MEG's photos are dated 5/5/09. Since this incident occurred on May 3rd, I'm assuming that none of these photos are from that dive. Is that correct? The last photo does seem to show three divers in close proximity with at least one diver out of frame below (interpretation based upon the bubble trail), which could line up with the facts of the incident if the camera's date was incorrectly set.

all of the photos are from that dive ,two of the three divers in the photo are who i belive to be Mrs Wood an d the DM who looks to be checking Mrs woods weights or adding or takeing away some weight this was the last time I saw them on the dve.

[MEG DIVER]

all of the photos are from that dive ,two of the three divers in the photo are who i belive to be Mrs Wood an d the DM who looks to be checking Mrs woods weights or adding or takeing away some weight this was the last time I saw them on the dve.

I never set the dates on the camera I got it from a friend to use on my trip an never check the dates

[bsee65]

all of the photos are from that dive ,two of the three divers in the photo are who i belive to be Mrs Wood an d the DM who looks to be checking Mrs woods weights or adding or takeing away some weight this was the last time I saw them on the dve.


Thanks for that update. Based upon the story, I thought that might have been the DM and the couple that informed the DM that Mrs. Wood had descended well below her, with Mrs. Wood's bubbles rising past them. Though, that did seem unlikely as you indicated that you weren't present in viewing range when that occurred.

What was the range at which that photo was taken? It certainly doesn't look crystal clear with 100' of visibility, but maybe that's the angle relative to the sun? I know that my pics come out very differently depending upon the sun's position.

[BluWatDvr]

Bsee65,

I just read your last two post and would like to say you have described ALL of the most important points about this whole accident very well.Just the way I understand it.I have read this story from first post to present.Good job on the summary.The date was 6/03/09 on the day of the incident.

Meg did have his camera date set wrong.I loaned him the camera.I checked.Sure enough.Its set 5/09 NOT 6/09 as it should have been.

[george w]

where can I find megdiver pictures

[Thalassamania]

In his Photo Gallery on ScubaBoard

[bsee65]

Bsee65,

I just read your last two post and would like to say you have described ALL of the most important points about this whole accident very well.Just the way I understand it.I have read this story from first post to present.Good job on the summary.The date was 6/03/09 on the day of the incident.

Meg did have his camera date set wrong.I loaned him the camera.I checked.Sure enough.Its set 5/09 NOT 6/09 as it should have been.

Thanks! At least I got the year right. Maybe my internal clock could use a tweak as well. I hate it when months fly by.

[DandyDon]

I never set the dates on the camera I got it from a friend to use on my trip an never check the dates
Really common oops. Even if the pics had not been date imprinted, one can often get the date from the EXIF data in a pic - if the camera is set right, or the pic hasn't been altered in editing. I'm sure your information is correct, or as close as we'll ever see. Thanks!

I'd kinda be interested in working on some of the greener pics if you'd be interested in emailing me the originals...?

[alohagal]

No offense to Dantheengineer, but I think you have the situation backwards. MEG DIVER is an uninterested party who was present on the dive. Dantheengineer is receiving his third party information from employees of the dive shop. Dan's information is suspect in accuracy as the parties providing it are very interested in the perception and outcome of any investigation. In short, if there are conflicting statements, I'm leaning toward those of MEG DIVER to be the more accurate.

Certainly of course I agree. MEG DIVER would be the one to "quote" on the incident, and it would be more accurate than a third hand account. However, the clarity in his post was difficult to decipher and I found it more challenging to repost his thoughts for a quick summary. By reposting, I never meant to imply that it was the final say or most accurate. And I did add the disclaimer (as did DANTHEENGINEER) that it was very third hand if not more so. It was only as a courtesy to late comers on this thread. I am grateful MEG DIVER posted at all and continues to be here. Thank you MEG DIVER.
And, I, like everyone else here, hope to hear from onehalcyon.

[Cave Diver]

Alohagal, looks like you'll have to find another SB challenge to do. :)

[alohagal]

Alohagal, looks like you'll have to find another SB challenge to do. :)
:shocked2:Instead of saying "Avoiding Accidents and Incidents Thread" as my SB Challenge, I should have said "Avoiding being the subject of analysis on the Accidents and Incidents thread"

I will go change it pronto.......................:)

[Cave Diver]

:rofl3:

[alohagal]

http://www.escuba.com/articles/index.asp?WCE=68&WCI=Article1 (http://www.escuba.com/articles/index.asp?WCE=68&WCI=Article1)

CNS Considerations in Scuba Diving
by Dr. Hugh Greer, DAN Southwest Regional Coordinator
Introduction
Some of the most difficult questions DAN medics field every day are questions pertaining to the diseases and illnesses of the central nervous system and their relationships to scuba diving. By "central nervous system (CNS)," I mean the brain and spinal cord and the body functions they control.
What makes these questions so problematic? One reason is because the answers are so varied. First, many of the diseases and illnesses that affect the central nervous system produce symptoms that are the same as, and can be mistaken for, neurological decompression illness. Since DAN began collecting data on recreational divers, we have found that the central nervous system is affected in about 70 to 80 percent of all types and severities of decompression illness (DCI).
This has two important consequences: 1) the diver may have his DCI undertreated because he will ignore symptoms of DCI; or 2) the diver may have his DCI overtreated, as it is often difficult to know which symptoms are new when a physician with whom he is unfamiliar is treating him.
We don't know if individuals with chronic or long-term central nervous system problems are more susceptible to decompression illness. It does raise a concern that if DCI occurs, will the pre-existing illness be made worse by any additional injury?
Finally, we do not have a storehouse of data on the effects of scuba diving (or more specifically, the effects of high partial pressures of nitrogen) on the illnesses and diseases mentioned in this article. It would be unethical to perform experimental dives on individuals for the purpose of determining the risk of permanent or disabling injury for any given neurological disease.
That is why we have selected DAN's Southwest Regional Coordinator Dr. Hugh Greer, a practicing diving medicine neurologist and former Underwater Demolitions Team (UDT) officer, to write on the topic of CNS considerations in scuba diving. His many years of evaluating and treating divers provide him with the knowledge and experience we need in order to answer questions in a very mater-of-fact fashion.
Whether you have experienced one of these conditions or have a student who has mentioned a central nervous system disorder, the decision to accept the risk of scuba diving with that condition should be an informed decision. And keep in mind that the assumption of risk is not purely personal: individuals with a CNS disorder must also be willing to let their buddies know that they have a condition that merits special consideration. In an emergency situation, it is assumed that a diver is capable of rendering assistance to a distressed buddy while underwater.
- Joel Dovenbarger, BSN, Vice President, DAN Medical Services


Cerebral Vascular Accident
Condition: Stroke, or loss of blood supply to the brain, causes damage to part of the brain, or bleeding from a blood vessel in the brain, which results in similar injury. Strokes come in all sizes and shapes, and the resulting disability depends on size and location of the event.


Fitness & Diving:
Most strokes occur in older people. The stroke itself identifies the person as one who has advanced arterial disease, thus a higher expectation of further stroke or heart attack.
The extent of disability caused by the stroke (e.g., paralysis, vision loss) may determine fitness to dive.
Vigorous exercise, lifting heavy weights and using the Valsalva method for ear-clearing when diving all increase arterial pressure in the head and may increase the likelihood of a recurrent hemorrhage.
While diving itself entails exposure to elevated partial pressures and elevated hydrostatic pressure, it does not cause stroke.
There is certainly increased risk in diving for someone who has experienced a stroke. Exceptional circumstances may exist, such as cerebral hemorrhage in a young person in whom the faulty artery has been repaired with little persisting damage. This type of recovery may permit a return to diving, with small risk. Each instance, however, requires a case-by-case decision, made with the advice of the treating physician, family and diving partners. Consulting a neurologist familiar with diving medicine is also advisable.
There is a similar concern for significant residual symptoms, as with post brain tumor surgery.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------END-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since it has been reported that the victim may have a history of stroke, also known as Transient Ischemic Attack, I thought this article might be of interest. And being in the medical field it was of interest to me.
The Bolded part is my emphasis. Hopefully, the DM was well informed. Otherwise she was working under a great handicap.

[widget]

I took some time to look at Meg Divers photos although theres not much I could deduce from them, I get the feeling that the group was pretty much scattered over the reef, (hardly an ideal situation on a wall dive) which perhaps explains why no other diver could (a) Possibly assist or (b) at least alert the Inst. (or attempt to alert) at the front somewhere, as to the issue unfolding behind.

Perhaps I missed it, but I dont recall any info on the number of divers in the water at the time, if we exclude the DM #3 who was assigned soley to Mr & Mrs Woods I understand there was 2 other DM's / Inst. in the water at the time??

With this info, I would wonder about the ratio of in water DM'S to divers?. That they (DM's) were not alerted or informed of the issue seems to imply a group scattered over a fairly large dive area (I call it a "same ocean buddy dive") and is another issue I have here, the dive was in all accounts on a wall edge,and although I am in agreement that all "qualified divers" are responsible for themselves, the dive had a higher risk ratio than say a flat bottom at 18m (60ft) the chances of someone going over the edge and dropping lower than expected (with possible other issues) is much higher, and I would have liked a fairly high "in water" DM to diver ratio and a fairly tight group control whilst in the wall edge vicinity, irrespective of the groups experience or qualification.

I must also say, I am further inclined only to "Meg Divers" reports,to me they appear factual and to the point, no axe to grind and no favourites implied.