Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[Amazz]

I think there may be a tendency to assume that a divemaster is expected to control the fate of a diver at all costs. First of all, a diver who required Mrs. Wood's level of assistance should never have been taken on a bottomless dive. That responsibility lies with the shop. However, if you don't know what the conversation was between the Woods and the staff before the dive, you can't speculate over what the shop knew or didn't know about their level of previous experience. "I haven't been in the water in a few months and would really like an instructor with me" could mean a diver is just being cautious or the diver has no business doing a dive with a 3,000 foot floor.

Don't assume that a diver will follow the divemaster's instructions. I have seen it many times and sometimes it's blatant. How did the diver get 20 ft. below the DM without her noticing? Maybe it was deliberate and quick, maybe the DM was careless. Maybe the diver thought she was inflating and was really dumping. I have seen that many times.

Here is what happened to me, here is how I handled it, and here is what went through my mind. Maybe some of it applies to Mrs. Wood's tragedy and why it may have ended the way it did.

I am an active divemaster in Jupiter. I have around 1500 dives. We used to take divers out to the Hole in the Wall which starts at about 130 ft. and bottoms out at 160 plus in certain areas. There are frequently very strong currents and large, sometimes aggressive sharks. An advanced C-card was required (which means nothing imho as far as experience goes.) After one particularly eventful dive, I decided NEVER EVER to divemaster that dive again. A diver not only put himself in a dangerous situation, but his potential rescuer (me) as well. There were two of us working. We gave a full briefing that stressed for all divers to stay with us the entire time. Bruce led the dive and I trailed at the end. The divers were all between us. After we descended I noticed that a young man and women hit the bottom at 130 ft. and started to go the wrong way. They were headed away from the ledge. I quickly gathered them and we proceeded toward the wall. I noticed we were about to fly over the Hole in the Wall, which is a big cavern swim through and the highlight of the dive. The current was SCREAMING that day. I grabbed the top of the cavern and motioned for the two divers to do the same. He started to have difficulty and I could tell he was either narced, overbreathing and CO2 building, or both. He gave me the ascend signal and I knew we had to get out of there quickly. I motioned for his girlfriend to ascend. She shook her head no. I vigorously motioned again and so did he. She proceeded to "argue" underwater with both of us. I grabbed his BCD and let go of the reef and we drifted away, starting a slow and controlled ascent. She followed. We stopped at about about 60-70 ft. for a minute or so. I was still holding his BCD. He motioned that he was ok and I let go. They started "arguing" again. I motioned for them to continue their ascent with me. He gave me the ok again. I glanced at my guage and noticed a bull shark coming toward us. It veered away and I noticed the two divers started sinking. I don't think I looked away for more than two seconds. I honked and got their attention and signaled for them to ascend. They shook their heads no, gave me the ok sign, and pointed that they were headed back to the bottom. I went with them as they seemed in control. I "told" them to stop at 100 ft. and continue the dive from there. The visibility was fantastic and there were schools of fish all through the water column. It would still be a great dive. They complied, briefly. Then they saw a diver below at 140 ft. with doubles. They descended to join him. I grabbed her tank valve and motioned for her to ascend again. She pushed me away and they continued to descend. What was I thinking? These two people have no regard for rules or safety and aren't doing a damn thing I'm telling them. I'm not going to die at 140 ft. by getting into a fight with two combative divers. They drifted along at 140 ft. for a few minutes. I watched from about 120 ft. Then they started ascending toward me. He showed me his guage and it read 300 psi!!!! Holy Sh........! I motioned for them to ascend with me. This time they were both compliant. He has 300 psi in his tank at 120 ft. I held his arm the entire ascent. The entire time I was thinking about what would happen if and when he took his last breath from the ever shrinking tank. I hoped it would at least happen at a shallow depth so I wouldn't have to share air with a panicked diver at a dangerous depth. We made it to the safety stop and spent almost three minutes there. I still held his arm until we reached the surface. However, the two of them once again started "arguing" during the safety stop. That's why I stopped working that dive. I know first hand how dangerous it can be to rescue somebody who is uncooperative at an unsafe depth. It's very easy to speculate that Mrs. Wood's divemaster was completely negligent in allowing her to sink 20 ft. below her. Maybe she was having bouyancy issues and inflated and dumped and dumped. Maybe she was a little overweighted and dumped too much. All it takes is a quick distraction. I found it shocking that my two divers started descending so quickly. You can all say I was wrong too. A lot can happen in two seconds. I would be much more willing to get into a rescue fight with a diver at 80 ft. than at 140 ft. I think a responsible divemaster thinks about the possibility of becoming a victim when the situation gets dangerous. I don't do that dive anymore so don't worry about me NOT rescuing any of you on it. What's a divemaster to do when divers don't follow instructions and deliberately go against what the dm says? We certainly don't know if that's the case with Mrs. Woods. It's only one piece of the speculation. There is so much that could have happened that it's unfair to blame it all on the dm.

[Web Monkey]

. In an emergency situation, it is assumed that a diver is capable of rendering assistance to a distressed buddy while underwater.
. . .
The Bolded part is my emphasis. Hopefully, the DM was well informed. Otherwise she was working under a great handicap.

The victim's medical history was irreverent in this case. Simply keeping the victim from descending far below the planned depth, and surfacing if behavioral or medical issues were seen would have prevented this fatality.

This requires nothing more than good buddy skills, which I would hope is a requirement for a DM card.

Any reasonable DM would assume that any person who requests or is assigned a DM as a personal buddy is going to require a significant level of attention.

Terry

[mrlipis]

Not to get off this particular incident but I think it is a sad situation that the industry is turning out certified divers that have to rely on a DM to get them through a dive. From day one, the prospective diver is told, " this is what you need to become a certified diver and for an additional $200.00 you can become an advanced diver." As they roll off the conveyor belt and end up on a dive boat with virtually no experience, have they "mastered" their skills? They are lucky to understand what neutral buoyancy means let alone "mastered" it.
The industry has given them a card that says they are qualified to go do this dive. In reality, 80% of those divers wouldn't have the experience the confidence or the balls to do the dive without a DM or an experienced diver at their side. That's actually a positive thing. The other 20% are too cocky or ignorant to know better.
The first c-card should be a learners permit with a requirement of 10 DM/Insrtuctor supervised dives in an true open water condition.
Whether or not this woman asked for a DM, or was required to hire one, I don't think she had any business doing a dive without a hard bottom of 60 ft. I mean really, one of the two principals in this incident did not believe she was qualified to do this dive without the assistance of a DM, and it still turned into a tragedy. What does this say about the quality of training from the ground up?

[mrlipis]

[QUOTE=Web Monkey;4485854]The victim's medical history was irreverent in this case. ntion.

QUOTE]

I don't think it would be irrelevant in a court of law. Had the dive op known of a pre-existing condition such as the one that has been suggested here, they would not of allowed her to dive, end of story. Suppose I hire you as a DM to take me on a dive to 140 ft and forget to tell you that I am using EAN32 and I have a seizure and die. Are you responsible?

[Amazz]

What does this say about the quality of training from the ground up?

I agree with you 100%. The idea of teaching students over a weekend and dumping them in the ocean on a drift dive in 60 ft. of water is terrifying to me. That's why I have no desire to become an instructor these days. I'm not proclaiming myself to be any kind of dive expert but here is now I learned to dive: I took Scuba in college. First I took lifeguard training in college. It was a BEAR. Then I took Scuba from the same instructor. I had class for 1.5 hours twice a week for 15 weeks. Now I know that's at the other end of the spectrum, but what a joke these weekend dive courses are. PADI made it worse by allowing the course online. We should probably take this thread offshoot elsewhere.

[Splitlip]

Here is what happened to me, here is how I handled it, and here is what went through my mind. Maybe some of it applies to Mrs. Wood's tragedy and why it may have ended the way it did.

I am an active divemaster in Jupiter. I have around 1500 dives. We used to take divers out to the Hole in the Wall which starts at about 130 ft. and bottoms out at 160 plus in certain areas. There are frequently very strong currents and large, sometimes aggressive sharks. An advanced C-card was required (which means nothing imho as far as experience goes.) After one particularly eventful dive, I decided NEVER EVER to divemaster that dive again. A diver not only put himself in a dangerous situation, but his potential rescuer (me) as well. There were two of us working. We gave a full briefing that stressed for all divers to stay with us the entire time. Bruce led the dive and I trailed at the end. The divers were all between us. After we descended I noticed that a young man and women hit the bottom at 130 ft. and started to go the wrong way. They were headed away from the ledge. I quickly gathered them and we proceeded toward the wall. I noticed we were about to fly over the Hole in the Wall, which is a big cavern swim through and the highlight of the dive. The current was SCREAMING that day. I grabbed the top of the cavern and motioned for the two divers to do the same. He started to have difficulty and I could tell he was either narced, overbreathing and CO2 building, or both. He gave me the ascend signal and I knew we had to get out of there quickly. I motioned for his girlfriend to ascend. She shook her head no. I vigorously motioned again and so did he. She proceeded to "argue" underwater with both of us. I grabbed his BCD and let go of the reef and we drifted away, starting a slow and controlled ascent. She followed. We stopped at about about 60-70 ft. for a minute or so. I was still holding his BCD. He motioned that he was ok and I let go. They started "arguing" again. I motioned for them to continue their ascent with me. He gave me the ok again. I glanced at my guage and noticed a bull shark coming toward us. It veered away and I noticed the two divers started sinking. I don't think I looked away for more than two seconds. I honked and got their attention and signaled for them to ascend. They shook their heads no, gave me the ok sign, and pointed that they were headed back to the bottom. I went with them as they seemed in control. I "told" them to stop at 100 ft. and continue the dive from there. The visibility was fantastic and there were schools of fish all through the water column. It would still be a great dive. They complied, briefly. Then they saw a diver below at 140 ft. with doubles. They descended to join him. I grabbed her tank valve and motioned for her to ascend again. She pushed me away and they continued to descend. What was I thinking? These two people have no regard for rules or safety and aren't doing a damn thing I'm telling them. I'm not going to die at 140 ft. by getting into a fight with two combative divers. They drifted along at 140 ft. for a few minutes. I watched from about 120 ft. Then they started ascending toward me. He showed me his guage and it read 300 psi!!!! Holy Sh........! I motioned for them to ascend with me. This time they were both compliant. He has 300 psi in his tank at 120 ft. I held his arm the entire ascent. The entire time I was thinking about what would happen if and when he took his last breath from the ever shrinking tank. I hoped it would at least happen at a shallow depth so I wouldn't have to share air with a panicked diver at a dangerous depth. We made it to the safety stop and spent almost three minutes there. I still held his arm until we reached the surface. However, the two of them once again started "arguing" during the safety stop. That's why I stopped working that dive. I know first hand how dangerous it can be to rescue somebody who is uncooperative at an unsafe depth. It's very easy to speculate that Mrs. Wood's divemaster was completely negligent in allowing her to sink 20 ft. below her. Maybe she was having bouyancy issues and inflated and dumped and dumped. Maybe she was a little overweighted and dumped too much. All it takes is a quick distraction. I found it shocking that my two divers started descending so quickly. You can all say I was wrong too. A lot can happen in two seconds. I would be much more willing to get into a rescue fight with a diver at 80 ft. than at 140 ft. I think a responsible divemaster thinks about the possibility of becoming a victim when the situation gets dangerous. I don't do that dive anymore so don't worry about me NOT rescuing any of you on it. What's a divemaster to do when divers don't follow instructions and deliberately go against what the dm says? We certainly don't know if that's the case with Mrs. Woods. It's only one piece of the speculation. There is so much that could have happened that it's unfair to blame it all on the dm.
All I can say Angie is, WOW!

[Web Monkey]

I don't think it would be irrelevant in a court of law. Had the dive op known of a pre-existing condition such as the one that has been suggested here, they would not of allowed her to dive, end of story. Suppose I hire you as a DM to take me on a dive to 140 ft and forget to tell you that I am using EAN32 and I have a seizure and die. Are you responsible?

I wouldn't take you on a 140' dive at all. Deep dives require well trained buddy pairs, not some random pairing of strangers, regardless of certification.

Terry

[Web Monkey]

I don't think it would be irrelevant in a court of law. Had the dive op known of a pre-existing condition such as the one that has been suggested here, they would not of allowed her to dive, end of story.Absolutely. If she said "I just had a stroke" the dive op would have to be insane to let her dive. However, since she was on the dive, I'm assuming she said "no" to all the medical questions.

In any case, the woman didn't die from a medical problem, she died because the DM failed to maintain appropriate buddy distance, let her get away then failed to drag her back to the surface even after catching up with her twice (if I read the thread correctly).

Terry

[pilot fish]

amazz, that is quite a scary story you told.:shocked2: I would have done the same thing as you, perhaps even less than you did. They were major arrogant and stupid. What the hell were these two constantly arguing about? What did you say to them at the surfcae? Hope you told the shop never to let them dive with that dive op again?


I agree with you 100%. The idea of teaching students over a weekend and dumping them in the ocean on a drift dive in 60 ft. of water is terrifying to me. That's why I have no desire to become an instructor these days. I'm not proclaiming myself to be any kind of dive expert but here is now I learned to dive: I took Scuba in college. First I took lifeguard training in college. It was a BEAR. Then I took Scuba from the same instructor. I had class for 1.5 hours twice a week for 15 weeks. Now I know that's at the other end of the spectrum, but what a joke these weekend dive courses are. PADI made it worse by allowing the course online. We should probably take this thread offshoot elsewhere.

[Web Monkey]

I am an active divemaster in Jupiter. I have around 1500 dives. We used to take divers out to the Hole in the Wall which starts at about 130 ft. and bottoms out at 160 plus in certain areas. There are frequently very strong currents and large, sometimes aggressive sharks. An advanced C-card was required

Do you mean "Advanced" as in "AOW" or "Advanced" as in "Advanced Nitrox/Decompression or Cave" ?

If AOW, that's absolutely terrifying.

Terry

[pilot fish]

What are the penalities for a DM losing a diver, or diver injury, due to DM negligence? Has it ever happened that a DM lost their cert due to improper dive supervision?

[Splitlip]

I agree with you 100%. The idea of teaching students over a weekend and dumping them in the ocean on a drift dive in 60 ft. of water is terrifying to me. That's why I have no desire to become an instructor these days. I'm not proclaiming myself to be any kind of dive expert but here is now I learned to dive: I took Scuba in college. First I took lifeguard training in college. It was a BEAR. Then I took Scuba from the same instructor. I had class for 1.5 hours twice a week for 15 weeks. Now I know that's at the other end of the spectrum, but what a joke these weekend dive courses are. PADI made it worse by allowing the course online. We should probably take this thread offshoot elsewhere.

I have seldom seen a student churned out of one of these classes who is ready.

Something which really twists my noodle is the fact that there are classes being certified at the BHB with all of their open water dives being conducted there.

The Blue Heron Bridge (BHB) is neat little shore dive inside the Palm Beach inlet. Actually in the intracoastal, done at slack high tide. It is very popular with instructors, usually for the first 2 open water dives in 13ft of water.

I go there on occasion with a near empty bottle when I want to do weight checks with a new suit or otherwise check out a new piece of gear.

I have been there on more than one occasion where an instructor has taken his class down to 13 ft done some skills, surfaced, chatted and repeated this 3 more times than congratulated them on achieving their certifications.
If the students stay in the area, their next dive will likely be a 70-80 ft drift.

[Splitlip]

Do you mean "Advanced" as in "AOW" or "Advanced" as in "Advanced Nitrox/Decompression or Cave" ?

If AOW, that's absolutely terrifying.

Terry


Here is a piece penned by Dan Volker for The South Florida Dive Journal when he did a Hole dive.

DEEP DIVE (http://www.sfdj.com/dive/deep.html)

[mrlipis]

I wouldn't take you on a 140' dive at all. Deep dives require well trained buddy pairs, not some random pairing of strangers, regardless of certification.

I would consider that good diligence on your part but unfortunately there are professionals out there that wouldn't think twice about it.

Absolutely. If she said "I just had a stroke" the dive op would have to be insane to let her dive. However, since she was on the dive, I'm assuming she said "no" to all the medical questions.

In any case, the woman didn't die from a medical problem, she died because the DM failed to maintain appropriate buddy distance, let her get away then failed to drag her back to the surface even after catching up with her twice (if I read the thread correctly).


I think it is safe to assume that she did answer NO to all the questions, my point being that if a condition like this contributed to her behavior the law would find Ms. Wood the culpable party. I am not defending the DMs actions or lack of but how selfish of any diver to put another person in that position. Do you think this DMs life has just changed forever?

Glad to see Meg's posts again and to hear that an investigator is talking to her. Hope we can get some more details and facts.

[Amazz]

Advanced Open Water.

[alohagal]

The victim's medical history was irreverent in this case. Simply keeping the victim from descending far below the planned depth, and surfacing if behavioral or medical issues were seen would have prevented this fatality.

This requires nothing more than good buddy skills, which I would hope is a requirement for a DM card.

Any reasonable DM would assume that any person who requests or is assigned a DM as a personal buddy is going to require a significant level of attention.

Terry

I doubt there is any doctor in the world who would give the okay for a 68 year old woman, who had a previous stroke history only a month before, to go scuba diving. And for lack of a better way of putting it...it is "suicidal" on that persons part to do so. Especially to depth.
Her odds are good to have another stroke under pressure. And if she was stroking at the time, confusion level is high and a person can be combative and extremely confused. I think it is a very relevant issue. And at the very least many people are often depressed after a stroke. I know I would not want to knowingly be the DM of an other diver with a health history like that. And not knowing...even worse. IMHO.

[Riger]

If this has been established already, then I apologise in advance...... Do we know what the certification level and experience of Mrs Wood is/was?

Best Regards
Richard

[Riger]

Here is a link that puts this discussion and the "other one" (Cayman) into a different perspective.

YouTube - Diving Accident Potential For A Bad Outcome Bahamas 12/12/08 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTQFcBIyqH8)

Best Regards
Richard

[fisheyeview]

If this has been established already, then I apologise in advance...... Do we know what the certification level and experience of Mrs Wood is/was?

Best Regards
Richard


No answer to this yet.

[fisheyeview]

I doubt there is any doctor in the world who would give the okay for a 68 year old woman, who had a previous stroke history only a month before, to go scuba diving. And for lack of a better way of putting it...it is "suicidal" on that persons part to do so. Especially to depth.
Her odds are good to have another stroke under pressure. And if she was stroking at the time, confusion level is high and a person can be combative and extremely confused. I think it is a very relevant issue. And at the very least many people are often depressed after a stroke. I know I would not want to knowingly be the DM of an other diver with a health history like that. And not knowing...even worse. IMHO.


50% of stoke victims suffer from depression. The rate of depression is higher among female stroke victims.

[alohagal]

Here is a link that puts this discussion and the "other one" (Cayman) into a different perspective.

YouTube - Diving Accident Potential For A Bad Outcome Bahamas 12/12/08 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTQFcBIyqH8)

Best Regards
Richard

Wow, that is heart racing stuff. Kudos to the guy who filmed and rescued at the same time!

[Qnape]

Here is a link that puts this discussion and the "other one" (Cayman) into a different perspective.

YouTube - Diving Accident Potential For A Bad Outcome Bahamas 12/12/08 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTQFcBIyqH8)

Best Regards
Richard

Thank you for posting that video; and to the heroic filmmaker for sharing his experience. The video would make a good sticky in the beginner's forum. It says a lot about what new divers can expect in many places - to be led into situations beyond their experience and understanding. Yes, they are responsible for themselves but it is obvious that the potential for a bad outcome is there. Can a 12 year old and buddy (mentally also 12, it seemed) be counted on to say "NO" to participating in a dive beyond their training? Obviously not in many cases.

I will be showing this video to my dive buddy (15 yr old daughter). I hope it helps her understand why we took extra instruction and practice dives before heading out on the reef, spent a week with a private DM even when told we did not need it, and obsess about gear prep. I think she already gets it; if I thought she didn't we wouldn't be in the water.

[shoredivr]

The Blue Heron Bridge (BHB) is neat little shore dive inside the Palm Beach inlet. Actually in the intracoastal, done at slack high tide. It is very popular with instructors, usually for the first 2 open water dives in 13ft of water.

[....]

I have been there on more than one occasion where an instructor has taken his class down to 13 ft done some skills, surfaced, chatted and repeated this 3 more times than congratulated them on achieving their certifications.
If the students stay in the area, their next dive will likely be a 70-80 ft drift.

Yes, that happens up here, too, in a 20 ft quarry where the temperatures get into the 70's by June. Meanwhile all the rest of the diving up here in the Great Lakes has temperatures of 35-60F depending on depth and time of year. True, you do get 70F+ in the St Lawrence River in August and September, but you also get a real current, not something you see in that quarry.

[bsee65]

Don't assume that a diver will follow the divemaster's instructions. I have seen it many times and sometimes it's blatant. How did the diver get 20 ft. below the DM without her noticing? Maybe it was deliberate and quick, maybe the DM was careless. Maybe the diver thought she was inflating and was really dumping. I have seen that many times.

In this case, though the dive professional in question was a qualified DM, she was allegedly acting as buddy to the victim. Based upon other discussions here, if Mrs. Wood got away from someone acting as a DM, the response would be pretty even between people thinking the DM screwed up and those who put it all on the diver. Based upon what we've been told, that's not th esituation we're working with. When you consider that the person in question was supposedly a professional buddy, the responses skew pretty heavily towards increasing the level of responsibility the dive professional has to remain proximate to the diver and guard her safety.

While the DM experience is important, talking about it in that light tends to confuse people about what the actual situation was in the case under consideration.

[bsee65]

I agree with you 100%. The idea of teaching students over a weekend and dumping them in the ocean on a drift dive in 60 ft. of water is terrifying to me. That's why I have no desire to become an instructor these days. I'm not proclaiming myself to be any kind of dive expert but here is now I learned to dive: I took Scuba in college. First I took lifeguard training in college. It was a BEAR. Then I took Scuba from the same instructor. I had class for 1.5 hours twice a week for 15 weeks. Now I know that's at the other end of the spectrum, but what a joke these weekend dive courses are. PADI made it worse by allowing the course online. We should probably take this thread offshoot elsewhere.

Isn't that all the more reason to become an instructor and enforce a higher level of expertise and learning for the students whom you pass? If there were more instructors out there with your conscience, maybe the overall picture of the industry would improve. No one says you have to offer a full cert in a weekend course. Isn't it up to the instructor to decide what courses they want to teach? Either that, or get a teaching cert with another group that will let you enforce higher standards if you can't do so through PADI.

[JimLap]

Advanced Open Water.

Angie, I'm not gonna quote your whole story cause I hate when that is done. All I can say is I hope you tore them a new one back on the boat. Idiots like that deserve to be told in front of everyone how stupid, dangerous, and reckless their actions were. Those are the kind of people who should stick to swimming pools. He sounded like an idiot and she was obviously a beatch.

And I agree with Bsee about going with an agency that does not allow those kinds of people to get cards. Or allow weekend courses. PM me if ya want more info:D:crafty::eyebrow:.

[Mayor]

Here is a link that puts this discussion and the "other one" (Cayman) into a different perspective.

YouTube - Diving Accident Potential For A Bad Outcome Bahamas 12/12/08 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTQFcBIyqH8)

Best Regards
Richard

Wow!!! :shakehead:

[bsee65]

And I agree with Bsee about going with an agency that does not allow those kinds of people to get cards. Or allow weekend courses. PM me if ya want more info:D:crafty::eyebrow:.

As you might expect, you are exactly who I was thinking about when I wrote that. Definitely don't need any more drone "instructors" who just want cash for cards. Angie sounds like the type of person who could make a difference in a positive way. Between the concern for safety, ability to recognize good and bad, and the collection of stories she must have from DM'ing on "interesting" dives, there's potential there for a great instructor who can inspire newbies to want to do it right.

[stevejaz]

PADI made it worse by allowing the course online.

2 things, first I don't recall the elderly woman's training or experience being disclosed.

Second, I'll freely tell you that I did the elearning you speak of. Now, I'll also admit I'm somewhat A.D.D. so sitting down and reading material that I (at the time) wanted to hurry and get through would not have worked well for me. If someone's not getting shot or it's not a true story I lose interest (real application study like SB is a different story). So, for me to do the elearning at my own pace, watch the videos, take pre-tests, chapter tests, a final test, and a final written test (that I scored 100% on BTW)...it obviously worked for me. That is the goal, right? If I had sat in a class and gone over stuff umteen times because someone didn't get the concept, or listen to what always seems to be that one person that has to argue every point to show how smart they are, I would mentally check out.

My point, everyone responds differently and a choice of media is a good thing. What I think made the difference is that my instructor for the application part of it was very good and somewhat strict so I had no illusions that I was not qualified to do everything after completing the course.

Now, I can't comment on any of the other courses but I can say, I have seen a few times on this board where people with 50, 100, or more dives don't recall stuff in the basic O.W. course....so what's the answer? I don't know, maybe periodic renewals? Required physicals.....doubt any of that will happen:shakehead:

[Amazz]

Nope....what am I supposed to say to my students? Hi, I know that you can get your scuba certification anywhere else in a weekend, but I want you to really know what you are doing before I dump you in 80 ft. of water in a 3 knot current. Therefore, I will require you to pay me what I'm worth for the time that I need for you to complete the minimum requirements in the water to build yourself up to diving in the area where you live or choose to dive. It's a great idea, but who is going to take the time to do it right if PADI allows for it to be done in a weekend? If I personally knew my students and wanted to do a personal favor, I would exend the class. But for the average instructor, it's never going to happen. PADI is wrong here. My personal training involved hours and hours of pool experience at depths of 20+ feet. I don't remember the actual depth, but it was the area where they did the college platform diving. I'm not saying that this is necessary, but I have encountered new divers who can barely swim. :-(

[Amazz]

I was very ready to tear them a new one. However......being into customer service......I didn't want to SCREAM at two people who paid a ricidulous amount of money for rental gear and fees for tanks and two dives. I also didn't want to yell at them in front of other customers and possibly ruin their trip. I pulled them aside and put it very delicately. I was sooooo pissed but played it as best as I could. I said that I was extremely concerned that he breathed his tank down to 300 psi at such a depth, that buddies need to stick together and follow the dm lead no matter what, if it doesn't feel right you need to abort the dive and your buddy needs to follow and understand, blah blah. Since there were two divemasters I "allowed" them to make a second dive. It was discussed with the capt. He was willing to bench them. I knew the second dive was much easier. I was on him like a leech. Interestingly, throughout the entire dive he was using his point and shoot and never once looked at his pressure guage. I definitely noticed and monitored if for him by looking over his shoulder. Unbelievable. I think there is also the danger of divemasters getting too familiar with the diving and forgetting that water can kill. What seems like ordinary drift diving and 80 ft. can be extremely dangerous for those diving after their initial dives on the 30 ft. Key's reefs, like Molasses.

[Amazz]

There is no excuse for this. I don't know where the divemaster was, but what about personal responsibility? They took a class and learned the rules. Should a divemaster be obligated to sink below recreational limits to rescue these divers who obviously had no regard for established rules or personal safely? 143 feet isn't so wicked, but what if it had been a little deeper. Sorry, I don't go that deep. Kudos to the fellow diver who saved them. Yes, he did save them. They just don't realize it.

[Web Monkey]

Nope....what am I supposed to say to my students? Hi, I know that you can get your scuba certification anywhere else in a weekend, but I want you to really know what you are doing before I dump you in 80 ft. of water in a 3 knot current.

That would work nicely.

Terry

[scubadada]

Are we ever going to get the facts concerning this catastrophe? This is one of the longest threads I've ever kept up with.

Good diving, Craig

[jkaterenchuk]

before I dump you in 80 ft. of water in a 3 knot current. :-(

Have you ever dumped anyone in a 3 knot current? Ever been in one yourself? I would think not....if someone took new divers into a 3 knot current they would need to be held criminally responsible and I do not think their training agency and insurance provider would be backing them up on that one.

John


I just reread my post and by using Amazz as a quote it reads differently then I meant. I was not directly saying that Amazz would do this or has not been in a 3 kt current rather I was posing the question more generic to anyone in a DM or Instructor position.

[DocIndyDiver]

If they want to dive and have health issues they are going to lie on that medical statement. Isn't really just like another liability release?

In that Bahama video, OMG are those two just kids? And to think PADI is certifieing 10 year olds.

Not to open a bag of worms but, what is a good PSI to leave a 100ft...1250? on a good day.

[DocIndyDiver]

Are we ever going to get the facts concerning this catastrophe? This is one of the longest threads I've ever kept up with.



Be patient it's like having the FAA investigate a plane crash on Bahama time.

Interviews were not even done before parties left the island.

By the way the cause of death will be drowning they always are.

[DocIndyDiver]

Have you ever dumped anyone in a 3 knot current? Ever been in one yourself? I would think not....if someone took new divers into a 3 knot current they would need to be held criminally responsible and I do not think their training agency and insurance provider would be backing them up on that one.



Happens all the time here on the south east coast of Florida "that's how we do it." (there's always current there)
The problem arises when we have new divers that have never jumped off a boat into real open water. They were certified in a spring, quarry or under a bridge. The worst conditions I dove in were my OW class in 4-6+ft. seas. All skills were done even at the surface. It was PADI! but, years ago. In my opinion if your teaching near the ocean get them in the ocean.

[dumpsterDiver]

Have you ever dumped anyone in a 3 knot current? Ever been in one yourself? I would think not....if someone took new divers into a 3 knot current they would need to be held criminally responsible and I do not think their training agency and insurance provider would be backing them up on that one.

John

Are you challeging the veracity of her statement?... 3 kts is not uncommon there. I've dived in over 4 kts in that area.


Edit: he beat me to it...

[Amazz]

http://before I dump you in 80 ft. of water in a 3 knot current. :-(

I used this statement as a reference if I were to ever become an instructor and bring students on a dive in Jupiter where currents are frequently unpredictable. No, I would never dump students into a current like that. I'm not an instructor and will never be. Have I ever been diving in a 3 knot current? Yes, a few times. Once at Wolf, once in Fiji, and a few times at Hole in the Wall. It's nasty and nobody should do it. I don't know if it was exactly 3 knots at Hole in the Wall but pretty damn near close from calculations from the captain as far as where we dropped in and where we were picked up and the time involved.

Actually, our divemaster in Galapagos told us our current was pushing 5 knots at Wolf that day. He said it was about the worst he had ever seen. I can't believe there aren't more accidents there. It was freaky. We barely saw the schooling hammerheads because we were flying through them!

[bsee65]

Nope....what am I supposed to say to my students? Hi, I know that you can get your scuba certification anywhere else in a weekend, but I want you to really know what you are doing before I dump you in 80 ft. of water in a 3 knot current. Therefore, I will require you to pay me what I'm worth for the time that I need for you to complete the minimum requirements in the water to build yourself up to diving in the area where you live or choose to dive. It's a great idea, but who is going to take the time to do it right if PADI allows for it to be done in a weekend? If I personally knew my students and wanted to do a personal favor, I would exend the class. But for the average instructor, it's never going to happen. PADI is wrong here. My personal training involved hours and hours of pool experience at depths of 20+ feet. I don't remember the actual depth, but it was the area where they did the college platform diving. I'm not saying that this is necessary, but I have encountered new divers who can barely swim. :-(

Sounds good to me as long as you advertise accordingly. Some people will go to the local dive shop and get a PADI speed cert, some will come to you to learn how to do it right. Some people get their beef fix from McDonalds, others will go to a steak house and pay a lot more for a better piece of beef. I don't see how diving instruction should be any different. No reason why you have to do three courses a week for twelve people at a time. Get your cert and then pick and choose students who want advanced training. You might even be able to offer an extra tutoring option to students who are going down the PADI conveyor belt to graduate them with stronger skills.

If diving professionally is your passion, don't limit yourself!

[jayjoans]

Have you ever dumped anyone in a 3 knot current? Ever been in one yourself? I would think not....if someone took new divers into a 3 knot current they would need to be held criminally responsible and I do not think their training agency and insurance provider would be backing them up on that one.

John

New divers (new does not mean "first" dive) are "dumped" into an average 1-2 knot current in Cozumel all day long. A 3 knot or much faster current is often the case along some of the walls and on some of the dives.

I see that you are a very experienced diver according to your profile, FAR more experienced than I am. I've been in a 3+ knot current more times than I can remember. I think it's likely that Amazz has been in some too, with over 1000 dives.


I must be missing something, I wouldn't consider putting a new diver into a 3 knot current requiring the DM to be arrested. I would assume that the DM knows the skills of the new diver and would assist the diver in making an informed decision.

[Riger]

If they want to dive and have health issues they are going to lie on that medical statement. Isn't really just like another liability release?

In that Bahama video, OMG are those two just kids? And to think PADI is certifieing 10 year olds.

Not to open a bag of worms but, what is a good PSI to leave a 100ft...1250? on a good day.

Individual conditions are going to influence the amount of air you should leave the bottom with and therefore the following information is based on me and my own tollerance for risk;

If I were ascending on a line from a popular location with moderate current (Thistlegorm Wreck) I would plan for delays on the line (due to crowding) and start up with at least 90 BAR (1300psi). In good conditions (fewer divers or no current) at the same location, I'd probably take that down to 70BAR (1000psi).

If the circumstances are excellent (shallow bottom 15m [50'], no current and good viz), I am usually happy to arrive at the surface with 20BAR (290psi). Anything less than that and I will be thinking about my dive and what got me to that low pressure.

Best Regards
Richard

[Splitlip]

Have you ever dumped anyone in a 3 knot current? Ever been in one yourself? I would think not....if someone took new divers into a 3 knot current they would need to be held criminally responsible and I do not think their training agency and insurance provider would be backing them up on that one.

John

LOL. Check your travel brochures.

Fact is when drift diving in a 3K current, the entire world is moving at that speed, Most of your drift diving destinations will have serious currents.

There is a learning curve and some skills to be mastered if you are only used to gearing up on picnic table and walking out or decending to a "platform".

[awap]

Sounds good to me as long as you advertise accordingly. Some people will go to the local dive shop and get a PADI speed cert, some will come to you to learn how to do it right. Some people get their beef fix from McDonalds, others will go to a steak house and pay a lot more for a better piece of beef. I don't see how diving instruction should be any different. No reason why you have to do three courses a week for twelve people at a time. Get your cert and then pick and choose students who want advanced training. You might even be able to offer an extra tutoring option to students who are going down the PADI conveyor belt to graduate them with stronger skills.

If diving professionally is your passion, don't limit yourself!

For folks who already know their beef this is probably true. But for folks with a tight budget who have never tasted any part of a cow, you might not want to count on it. In the end, the c-card looks the same. If you really think otherwise, you might want to read some of MikeFerrara postings.

Sorry to have drifted off topic.

[stevejaz]

New divers (new does not mean "first" dive) are "dumped" into an average 1-2 knot current in Cozumel all day long. A 3 knot or much faster current is often the case along some of the walls and on some of the dives.

I see that you are a very experienced diver according to your profile, FAR more experienced than I am. I've been in a 3+ knot current more times than I can remember. I think it's likely that Amazz has been in some too, with over 1000 dives.


I must be missing something, I wouldn't consider putting a new diver into a 3 knot current requiring the DM to be arrested. I would assume that the DM knows the skills of the new diver and would assist the diver in making an informed decision.

Actually, my wife and I's first dive (a non-certified resort dive) was in Playa and a drift dive, not sure of how fast the current was, but there was definitely a pretty good current. I could stop to look at something but it was a decent effort swimming in to the current to maintain position. Never felt unsafe, bobbing on top of the water waiting for the water taxi was a bit difficult though :vomit:

[mikerault]

Mod's, as interesting as this discussion is, I suggest that it has diverged radically from the topic and it is perhaps time to split it off and let it have a life of its own...

[jkaterenchuk]

LOL. Check your travel brochures.

Fact is when drift diving in a 3K current, the entire world is moving at that speed, Most of your drift diving destinations will have serious currents.

There is a learning curve and some skills to be mastered if you are only used to gearing up on picnic table and walking out or decending to a "platform".



No S#@t sherlock. We were talking about new divers or recently OW certified divers being dropped into a 3 kt current. I did not say its unsafe for an experienced diver to dive in 3kt current depending upon the type of dive. With new divers there are just too many issues and too much task loading and skills that are critical that they will not have mastered and hence too much a chance for problems. For example...entry and exit from the boat is much more challenging, at 3 kts mask flooding is much more an issue (how many stories do we need to read about new divers that panic when their mask is flooded). Even though you are moving with the current buddy contact requires more attention. Depending upon local dive customs someone in the buddy team might have to manage and carry a surface float so that boat can follow them, the divers might need to know how to deploy a smb (thats not on the OW course at least with PADI). If this is the first time they will be using air much quicker due to the adrenaline rush that comes with conditions like high current. And these do not even address if its a strong current on a wreck dive or reef dive which bring a whole new set of issues such as free ascent without reference.

Far too many potential problem for me to take a new diver into such conditions. They can build up to it over time starting with lower level currents and developing confidence there first. Just because some says they do it in places like Florida does not mean it right. Beside, I would still question doing it in a 3 kt current even in Florida. I have not seen any many boat captains off Ft Lauderdale or Key Largo that do not proceed cautiously when dropping even experienced divers into a 3 kt current.

[jkaterenchuk]

New divers (new does not mean "first" dive) are "dumped" into an average 1-2 knot current in Cozumel all day long. A 3 knot or much faster current is often the case along some of the walls and on some of the dives.

I see that you are a very experienced diver according to your profile, FAR more experienced than I am. I've been in a 3+ knot current more times than I can remember. I think it's likely that Amazz has been in some too, with over 1000 dives.


I must be missing something, I wouldn't consider putting a new diver into a 3 knot current requiring the DM to be arrested. I would assume that the DM knows the skills of the new diver and would assist the diver in making an informed decision.

I have been to Cozumel 4 times. I can only remember one dive in which I felt the current on the dive site was approaching 3 kts. However, this would be my guess based upon physical and visual cues and having been in 3 kt + before. I would not have an issue with experienced divers in 1 kt current in Cozumel with the local condition of very good visability and the DM managing the SMB. Even there I have seen many issues with buddy seperation because usually the DM has 8 plus divers and the many dive boats tend to go to the same sites and when one group from one boat drifts onto a group from another is a mess especially with new divers.

I would assume nothing about a DM's qualifications and capabilities. Did you miss the topic of this thread?

Other instructor can do as they wish but you will not find me taking any new divers I just certified or even have some dives under their belt directly into a 3 kt current.

John

[jkaterenchuk]

Are you challeging the veracity of her statement?... 3 kts is not uncommon there. I've dived in over 4 kts in that area.


Edit: he beat me to it...

Nope, I went back and corrected my post. I should not have used her in quote form to give that impression. I meant the question to be more generic in nature to an Instructor/DM.

John

[Cave Diver]

Have I ever been diving in a 3 knot current? Yes, a few times. Once at Wolf, once in Fiji, and a few times at Hole in the Wall. It's nasty and nobody should do it.

I'm not sure if your statement is referring to current in general, or at that specific site. Assuming you're generalizing, I have to say that current is manageable as long as both diver and captain is aware and capable of handling the logistics of it. I've done a live drop into a current that was estimated at almost 4 kts. As the captain was following our SMB during deco, GPS showed actual rate of drift to be 5+.

It's not something I'd recommend for new divers, but it's certainly doable with the right experience.

[Amazz]

I should have been more specific and was generalizing a bit. I consider you cavers and techies to be in a category of your own. I was also thinking more about the site Hole in the Wall in Jupiter where currents can run considerably faster than 3 knots and pull divers off the wall into deeper water very quickly. That dive should be aborted if conditions are faster than 3 knots. The generalization has more to do with AOW divers and not divers who have tech training.

[awap]

Just to make sure we are all talking about the same thing, I figure 3 kt is about a football field (100 yd) per minute.

[ScubaSteve]

Just to make sure we are all talking about the same thing, I figure 3 kt is about a football field (100 yd) per minute.


1 knot is equal to (approximately)

1.15 mph
.001552056 MACH
1852 meters per hour
6076 feet per hour
101.2686 feet per minute
30.86667 meter per minute

SO....YES you are basically correct

[cappyjon431]

Part of the problem stems from the fact that most recreational divers have no clue in judging what a nautical mile/hr. (kt.) is when they are underwater. We used to dive off of Cat Cay in the Bahamas every week, and I can't tell you how many divers (literally hundreds) we had surface claiming a "ripping" current or a "5-6 knot current". What these divers were actually facing was a stiff 1.5 knot current (sometimes it would actually get above 2 knots, but very rarely) that was difficult to swim against. Most people can swim into a 2 kt. current and make some progress, but it is tiring and it is difficult to sustain. Swimming against a 5 kt. current in dive gear is virtually impossible.

[boulderjohn]

Wow, that is heart racing stuff. Kudos to the guy who filmed and rescued at the same time!

...and had the presence of mind to anticipate the need for the rescue by filiming his computer and the rescuees periodically throughout the dive.

The last time I saw a discussion of this video, the consensus was that it was a fake.

By the way, roughly the last 60 posts have just about nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

[ItsBruce]

1 knot is equal to (approximately)

1.15 mph
.001552056 MACH
1852 meters per hour
6076 feet per hour
101.2686 feet per minute
30.86667 meter per minute

SO....YES you are basically correct

Very good on the equivalencies. But how many furlongs is that per fortnight?

[Cave Diver]

very good on the equivalencies. But how many furlongs is that per fortnight?

~9280

The last time I saw a discussion of this video, the consensus was that it was a fake.

Judging from the way the no-stop time remaining jumps around during the dive, I'd guess this video was pieced together from at least two seperate dives.

[jon m]

Thank you for posting that video; and to the heroic filmmaker for sharing his experience. The video would make a good sticky in the beginner's forum. It says a lot about what new divers can expect in many places - to be led into situations beyond their experience and understanding. Yes, they are responsible for themselves but it is obvious that the potential for a bad outcome is there. Can a 12 year old and buddy (mentally also 12, it seemed) be counted on to say "NO" to participating in a dive beyond their training? Obviously not in many cases.

I will be showing this video to my dive buddy (15 yr old daughter). I hope it helps her understand why we took extra instruction and practice dives before heading out on the reef, spent a week with a private DM even when told we did not need it, and obsess about gear prep. I think she already gets it; if I thought she didn't we wouldn't be in the water.


thanks again for posting that, i forwarded to my dive buddies... that vid made me queasy, just watching.(so close, and have no idea)
thanks for saving them!!!!
-Jon

[ScubaSteve]

http://blogoehlert.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/gullible.gif

[dumpsterDiver]

Just to make sure we are all talking about the same thing, I figure 3 kt is about a football field (100 yd) per minute.

Don't know about your conversion factors but we commonly drift well over a mile in 30 minutes in that area. Additionally, the boat GPS gives good readings of the speed when drifting. Also the diver pulling a float in those currnts can have a hard time if the surface is moving a lot faster than the bottom water. Sometimes the top and bottom are moving at the same rate, sometimes not.

[awap]

Don't know about your conversion factors but we commonly drift well over a mile in 30 minutes in that area. Additionally, the boat GPS gives good readings of the speed when drifting. Also the diver pulling a float in those currnts can have a hard time if the surface is moving a lot faster than the bottom water. Sometimes the top and bottom are moving at the same rate, sometimes not.

That puts it in the 3 kt neighborhood.

[alohagal]

...and had the presence of mind to anticipate the need for the rescue by filiming his computer and the rescuees periodically throughout the dive.

The last time I saw a discussion of this video, the consensus was that it was a fake.

By the way, roughly the last 60 posts have just about nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

I did think it odd that he was conveniently filming his guage at the beginning of the dive. I chalked it up to someone who may have realized a potential for an incident occuring with someone so young on the dive. But...guess not. I also heard the video of the eel biting the man's thumb off was fake as well.

I guess you can count this post as another one off topic! Wish ONEHALCYON would show up here. If he is the real deal.

[cappyjon431]

Don't know about your conversion factors but we commonly drift well over a mile in 30 minutes in that area. Additionally, the boat GPS gives good readings of the speed when drifting. Also the diver pulling a float in those currnts can have a hard time if the surface is moving a lot faster than the bottom water. Sometimes the top and bottom are moving at the same rate, sometimes not.

And sometimes the surface current is moving in the opposite direction as the bottom current. Only had this happen a couple of times to me, always on very deep walls (Elbow Cay in the Cay Sal Bank comes to mind). Talk about difficulties handling the float!

Have we finished off the original topic?

[mrlipis]

I did think it odd that he was conveniently filming his guage at the beginning of the dive. I chalked it up to someone who may have realized a potential for an incident occuring with someone so young on the dive. But...guess not. I also heard the video of the eel biting the man's thumb off was fake as well.

I guess you can count this post as another one off topic! Wish ONEHALCYON would show up here. If he is the real deal.

I think your gut instincts are correct in both cases here.

[Splitlip]

No S#@t sherlock. We were talking about new divers or recently OW certified divers being dropped into a 3 kt current. I did not say its unsafe for an experienced diver to dive in 3kt current depending upon the type of dive. With new divers there are just too many issues and too much task loading and skills that are critical that they will not have mastered and hence too much a chance for problems. For example...entry and exit from the boat is much more challenging, at 3 kts mask flooding is much more an issue (how many stories do we need to read about new divers that panic when their mask is flooded). Even though you are moving with the current buddy contact requires more attention. Depending upon local dive customs someone in the buddy team might have to manage and carry a surface float so that boat can follow them, the divers might need to know how to deploy a smb (thats not on the OW course at least with PADI). If this is the first time they will be using air much quicker due to the adrenaline rush that comes with conditions like high current. And these do not even address if its a strong current on a wreck dive or reef dive which bring a whole new set of issues such as free ascent without reference.

Far too many potential problem for me to take a new diver into such conditions. They can build up to it over time starting with lower level currents and developing confidence there first. Just because some says they do it in places like Florida does not mean it right. Beside, I would still question doing it in a 3 kt current even in Florida. I have not seen any many boat captains off Ft Lauderdale or Key Largo that do not proceed cautiously when dropping even experienced divers into a 3 kt current.
John: My name is Tim, not "Sherlock". :)

My post was in response to this post you made in reply to AMAZZ:
Have you ever dumped anyone in a 3 knot current? Ever been in one yourself? I would think not....if someone took new divers into a 3 knot current they would need to be held criminally responsible and I do not think their training agency and insurance provider would be backing them up on that one.
Prior to your edit.

And as I have stated earlier in this thread, dropping a "subtrained" student in drift is not right. We agree on that. As I also said, there is a learning curve, but these currents are a reality. And my point was that AMAZZ dives them.

We are in Jupiter. Not Lauderdale or the keys. 3 knot currents are NOT that unusual. We had 3.5 at the surface the past weekend. It was maybe 2 and change at the bottom. People dive them, including visitors. People who are comfortable and experienced in the water do fine. We agree there too.

Now, I will say my friend Mark whom I met here in the forums came from MO., never having dived anything but a Lake or Quarry. Very experienced however. He decended several seconds AFTER the rest of us and had to wait several minutes hanging on to rocks down stream for us to catch up. 5 or 6 minutes into the vid. He was fine and learned. LOL
Scuba Diving Videos West Palm Beach Drift Dive Scuba Videos (http://www.scubadivingtube.com/play.php?vid=741)
The particular op (some find too nurturing), checks new folks out in their pool and puts several DM's /guides in the water to monitor them.

Here is a pic of Dave pulling our surface float. Not much current. :)

[Cave Diver]

I did think it odd that he was conveniently filming his guage at the beginning of the dive. I chalked it up to someone who may have realized a potential for an incident occuring with someone so young on the dive. But...guess not. I also heard the video of the eel biting the man's thumb off was fake as well.

I guess you can count this post as another one off topic! Wish ONEHALCYON would show up here. If he is the real deal.

I think your gut instincts are correct in both cases here.

To answer that question, look at this: 8 seconds into the video the computer shows a depth of 71' and 24 minutes no stop time. The rest of the dive goes like this:

Time...Depth...No Stop Time
0:08.......71........24........2370 psi
1:19.......111.......5........ 2045 psi
1:41.......113.......5.........2145 psi
1:52.......128.......0
2:34.......141.......4........16?? psi
2:54.......144.......5........1640 psi

Interesting that there is more no stop time at 144' than there was at 128'. I think this was either multiple dives spliced together, or a bounce dive was done and the shots were put together out of sequence. PSI at 111' seems to support this.

Also, one minute into the video it shows another diver video taping their console...

[MMM]

To answer that question, look at this: 8 seconds into the video the computer shows a depth of 71' and 24 minutes no stop time. The rest of the dive goes like this:

Time...Depth...No Stop Time
0:08.......71........24........2370 psi
1:19.......111.......5........ 2045 psi
1:41.......113.......5.........2145 psi
1:52.......128.......0
2:34.......141.......4........16?? psi
2:54.......144.......5........1640 psi

Interesting that there is more no stop time at 144' than there was at 128'. I think this was either multiple dives spliced together, or a bounce dive was done and the shots were put together out of sequence. PSI at 111' seems to support this.

Also, one minute into the video it shows another diver video taping their console...

I'm not familiar with that computer andhaven't checked tables but is there any possibility that the last 2 times were showing deco obligation (perhaps with 3 min safety stop built in)? Seems like a big obligation in such a short timeframe but just wondering...

[Cave Diver]

I'm not familiar with that computer andhaven't checked tables but is there any possibility that the last 2 times were showing deco obligation (perhaps with 3 min safety stop built in)? Seems like a big obligation in such a short timeframe but just wondering...

I considered that, but I didn't see any indication that it was a deco obligation.

[alohagal]

I considered that, but I didn't see any indication that it was a deco obligation.

Interesting. I was not able to make out as much on the video computer guage (and didn't try) only noticed the depth.

Fake or not...it was pretty spooky on first run through. The music helped set the ambiance of trepidation.

Shout out to MEG DIVER: Can you tell us anymore about the incident, the DM, or anything at all on the investigation for the subject of this thread?

Thanks in advance,
Mary

[Cave Diver]

Yeah, I had to watch it several times at full resolution to get all the numbers and a few still weren't perferctly clear. The PSI at 1:19 is the one that really jumps out to indicate that at least some of the footage is presented out of order. But then again, I just have an overly suspicious mind. ;)

[bowlofpetunias]

That's a good point that was brought up recently in the other accident thread. I believe it was Thal that mentioned the value in a diver having a personal limit, decided before hand that they felt comfortable with when helping another diver. It's not a decision you want to make under stress.

Not just from the perspective of Diving. I have not been in a rescue situation while diving (thank God) but have been in plenty in my life as Paramedic and doing First Aid Coverage.

Think it over, work it out in your head in advance because when the Ship hits the Sand there isn't time. You have to work from training and programming that is why first aid, scuba and rescue training are so repetitive. When the adrenaline is pumping and your brain is in Holy Cow mode your body has a memory of what to do. When the brain catches up hopefully those programed reactions will have kept you from messing up or missing something.

After the fact you can look at it in a clear head and review it based on statistics. Having made your decision on what your limits are in advance mean you are less likely to beat yourself up and be emotionally traumatized.

I bow to the better judgment and knowledge of the divers here who have masses more knowledge,experience and skill in the water than I will probably ever have when it come to the technical issues of this case.

I have enough training/experience on Critical Incident Management/Debriefing/Defusing to be comfortable putting my .02c in on that topic. I have seen people still traumatized years after an event they were not prepared for emotionally. I have seen people deal with horrific situations effectively because they were prepared emotionally. The only way to have a chance of coming away without emotional scars is to establish the limits you can live with in advance.

In the end.. it is better for YOUR LOVED ONES to say "My (insert relationship) IS my hero" and not "was a hero". Your loved ones have a greater right to have you in their lives than a random stranger.... do your best in limits that are safe for you and go home to the ones who love you!

Putting away my soapbox now.....

[shoredivr]

We are in Jupiter. Not Lauderdale or the keys. 3 knot currents are NOT that unusual. We had 3.5 at the surface the past weekend. It was maybe 2 and change at the bottom. People dive them, including visitors. People who are comfortable and experienced in the water do fine. We agree there too.


Kind of common up here, too: try drifting the St. Lawrence River near Brockville, Ontario or the Niagara River, or the St. Clair River. Parts of these rivers get up to more than 3kts, though.

Thompson Hole
YouTube - Thompson's Hole Current (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0YCP73FivY)
St Clair River
YouTube - The ME Tremble - St Clair River Wreck Dive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpLNSyDbXqI&feature=related)
Upper Niagara, fish eye view
YouTube - Diving the Upper Niagara (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXmLl7OnBZk&feature=related)

[Qnape]

...The last time I saw a discussion of this video, the consensus was that it was a fake.

By the way, roughly the last 60 posts have just about nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

While we await more details on the incident from the OP and others, I have contacted the maker of the video via youtube comments and suggested that he comment here. He asserts that the video is authentic, and was posted to urge divers NOT to rely on divemasters for their safety.

[Cave Diver]

While we await more details on the incident from the OP and others, I have contacted the maker of the video via youtube comments and suggested that he comment here. He asserts that the video is authentic, and was posted to urge divers NOT to rely on divemasters for their safety.

The videographer has contacted me and I've requested his participation in a new thread about the incident he captured on video. If he agrees to participate, I'll start the thread shortly.

Edit: Thread started here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/near-misses-lessons-learned/289924-bahamas-close-call-video.html#post4491122

[ahpoolman]

I was told by Qnape that there may be sceptics on the dive. I assure everyone that this dive was done on one take. There may be differences in a couple sequences of which video clip I choose at the certain time. Keep in mind when you video underwater that you need to turn your camera off every once in a while. What I was doing was showing the steepness of the wall and other specifics of the dive. I had to do alot of narraration with text for everyone to get the whole picture in a 3 minute video. I did render the video in a HD format for those who want to see it in better quality. I think the music makes the video more dramatic. This was my 5th video I ever made and I could have made a much better one than that now. This video was made for me to show the dangers of not abiding by what the DM says on the boat. Accidents happen. Dive Masters are not responsible for "Cert Divers" well being. I know they try but to me they are all just Tour Guides. We can all go diving anywhere in the world with an open water cert and get a tank from the local scuba shop. Whos fault would it be if there was no DM on that dive with you and your buddy?? I want to make people aware of the dangers of not doing the basics, checking air, checking depth, and more importantly checking your dive partners air. This situation could have been worse but it wasn't thank god. When your put into a double victim rescue alot of rules end up going out the window on how to save someone. When you have two victims that are in a dangerous situation your training has to kick in. I am cerified through PADI as a "Rescue Diver" I also was a US Navy Rescue Swimmer. Situations like this don't happen often but not alot of times they get caught on tape either. Remember I only have one extra regulator with 2 victims. I deflated their BCD's and had them hold hands. I did not want any air at all in their BC's because the air expanding would have been impossible for me to keep them down safley. I brought them up as fast as safely possible. I stayed with them at 15 feet for as long as I could ready to hand my sencondary to them. But at that time I kept it holstered not knowing which one it would be that would need it at the time. My computer was screaming at me the whole time. I did not decompress properly either but I also wasn't the one at 150 ft. for 10 minutes either. I welcome the comments. The more people that see this video the safer our diving community will be. I want to be clear that I don't blame any Dive Master. There are Scuba Shops around the country using this video as an aid for the first time dive "certs"
Aaron

[smile47]

Dunno. I recently learned in another thread that a quick bounce dive to 200' to recover a diver is no problem for an instructor that's been in tropical location for more than 6 months...
not something id want to do.:shakehead::shakehead:

[Web Monkey]

While we await more details on the incident from the OP and others, I have contacted the maker of the video via youtube comments and suggested that he comment here. He asserts that the video is authentic, and was posted to urge divers NOT to rely on divemasters for their safety.

It doesn't matter if it's real. The "take-away" point to not be a dumbass or trust the DM to "keep you safe" is a valid one.

Terry

[Qnape]

It doesn't matter if it's real. The "take-away" point to not be a dumbass or trust the DM to "keep you safe" is a valid one.

Terry

I had this thought as well; even if contrived the video consisely delivers its cautionary message. At the same time, I felt the maker might want to comment. Welcome Aaron, and thanks for your contribution.

Glen

[ahpoolman]

Lets give this a try the video in HD Format is:
YouTube - Scuba Diving Accident Intervention Bahamas 12/04/08 HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W30cufYc_ZI)

[Cave Diver]

Lets give this a try the video in HD Format is:
YouTube - Scuba Diving Accident Intervention Bahamas 12/04/08 HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W30cufYc_ZI)

New thread started with video embedded: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/near-misses-lessons-learned/289924-bahamas-close-call-video.html#post4491122

[alohagal]

Lets give this a try the video in HD Format is:
YouTube - Scuba Diving Accident Intervention Bahamas 12/04/08 HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W30cufYc_ZI)
Okay...back to my original thought. Thanks for a heart thumping video. I think it will help many divers...novice and otherwise.

And the music was spot on!!

[danclem]

Just returned home from an extended Bahamas/Florida Keys photo shoot, and read the posts made the past few days. At the risk of getting back to the original thread (btw, the video is a must see), here are a couple of clarifying points that some folks asked about.

1.) To my knowledge there were two non-Stuart Cove individuals with Rescue or higher certifications: a police officer from Montreal and myself. After getting the OK from the skipper we helped with a surface search. There were two individuals already in the water, one without a mask or snorkel. He turned out to be Radha's husband, and probably should not have been in the water looking for his wife (see below).

2.) Not everyone made a second dive on the "Bond" set. The wife of the New York couple had trouble equalizing on the first dive, and I stayed behind to both write down what had happened and to try to make sure the remaining crew was doing OK. The skipper was very composed but quite upset. I am not sure that most of the recreational divers fully realized that there was a 99% chance someone had just died.

3.) It appears Radha had a stroke approximately a month before the Bahamas trip. If it was a mini-stroke (TIA), then my medical friends have indicated there are a large percentage of individuals who have additional strokes within the next few years. Even a mini-stroke can disable/confuse individuals for several minutes to a day.

4.) During the debrief and interview with the insurance company accident investigator we were asked if we saw any errors or improvements that could be made. I noted three, neither of which would have had any impact on Radha's survivability.
A.) There were no binoculars on board. We were fortunate in that the seas were calm and there was very little current. It is still difficult to see a head or waving arms several hundred yards away, even with light chop and small swells.

B.) I made an error when we conducted the surface search by not asking divers on board to visually keep track of the four swimmers (two buddy pairs)in the water. We were working in pairs, but I should have made this request.

C.) I don't know the circumstances behind Radha's husband Larry entering the water to look for his missing wife, but I don't think he should have gone back into the water after boarding the boat at the conclusion of the dive. On the surface search he and I worked up-current so it would be easier for him to get back to the boat, but he tired quite quickly, which is understandable, and was rescue swum back to the boat. This could have turned into a second significant incident quite easily.
As mentioned in earlier posts, my "insta-buddy" and I were following the lead dive master, so I have nothing to add about the Radha and the DM's actions. I had a good experience with Stuart Cove's operation and will dive with them again.


This is also probably the proper forum to remind divers that operators are not responsible for determining whether or not someone is medically fit to dive. This is the diver's responsibility. I just rechecked with PADI, and here is an extract from their response:
While dive students are required to complete a medical history questionnaire before participating in any PADI Courses involving in-water training, PADI diving facilities are not required to medically screen all of their customers. Divers learn during their training that, after certification, they must always ensuring that they are medically fit for diving before doing so. This is the diver's responsibility, rather than the dive center's.
Hope this helps clarify a couple of points and some lessons learned.

Dan

[MMM]

I considered that, but I didn't see any indication that it was a deco obligation.

Based on subsequent reports (my computer ws screaming at me; I didn't properly decompress), that's exactly what it was...

[DocIndyDiver]

Recent history of TIA/stroke! They (her husband was involved in the decision to dive) were either naive to, or disregarded the danger of this. This woman should of been doing nothing more than a leisurely snorkel trip...maybe. TIA/strokes rarely are a stand alone health condition. They are usually the result of many other conditions such as diabetes and heart disease, also concerns with diving. I am sorry for their loss but, this unnecessary incident caused everyone involved a great deal of pain. I wish them all no permanent emotional scars.

[bowlofpetunias]

Recent history of TIA/stroke! They (her husband was involved in the decision to dive) were either naive to, or disregarded the danger of this. This woman should of been doing nothing more than a leisurely snorkel trip...maybe. TIA/strokes rarely are a stand alone health condition. They are usually the result of many other conditions such as diabetes and heart disease, also concerns with diving. I am sorry for their loss but, this unnecessary incident caused everyone involved a great deal of pain. I wish them all no permanent emotional scars.

It is tragic that Mr Wood lost his wife in this way. If she had a recent stroke and they decided to dive anyway they made a tragic and ill thought out choice. Of course combatitive behavior is a know feature of brain injury. Poor decision making are consistent with both brain injury and Narcosis.

Even more tragic is that the DM did not come to work that day knowing that she was going to be paired up with someone who should not be diving. It is so easy to point fingers of blame at the DM but this tragic sequence of events started before they got on the boat. All anyone can do is their best. I sure wouldn't want to be in the position of the DM....

[ItsBruce]

I have been giving a lot of thought to the question of what lengths ought a DM go to in order to rescue another diver, even if that other diver is the DM's buddy. I do not yet have clarity. However, I have two observations. First, a good DM should stand a good chance of preventing the dive from becoming one where a diver in his or her charge needs rescuing. I do not think that a DM must be able to prevent it, only that the DM should stand a good chance of doing so. Second, for my friends who proclaim that if they have to go after a descending diver, someone is coming up, while I applaud the sentiment, I am concerned that such a proclamation is unwise, unsafe, and possibly the result of TMT. I would hope I would give it my best shot, but I hope I would have the good sense to determine if my best shot is not going to be enough and to then give up.

Edited to add: IMHO, a DM or an instructor is not the guarantor of a diver's safety.

[bsee65]

Hey Dan, thanks for that info, and it's great to push this thread back on track. There were a few other questions that were not fully resolved and I wonder if you might provide your take if you have anything to add.

First, we have heard both that the DM was hired to work with multiple people, and that she was hired specifically to buddy with Mrs. Wood. Can you clarify this at all?

Second, we have heard that Mr. Wood was diving with a friend as his buddy. This hasn't been refuted thus far. We have also heard that the dive split up with Mrs. Wood and her DM buddy, as well as one other couple, lagging behind and separated from the dive leader and your group. Can you confirm that Mr. Wood and his buddy were with you and the dive leader during this incident?

Third, there has been discussion about the circumstances of the hiring of the private DM. Do you have knowledge of whether the DM was hired by choice, or required by the dive shop? In either case, did you learn what the reason was for the private DM to be hired?

Finally, was Mrs. Wood 50-ish or 68? We've heard both and 68 seems more likely bsed upon the retirement, but I don't believe this was ever settled.

Sorry to lay it all on you, but there's not too many other information sources on this one.

Thanks!

[Web Monkey]

I do not think that a DM must be able to prevent it, only that the DM should stand a good chance of doing so. Second, for my friends who proclaim that if they have to go after a descending diver, someone is coming up, while I applaud the sentiment, I am concerned that such a proclamation is unwise, unsafe, and possibly the result of TMT. I would hope I would give it my best shot, but I hope I would have the good sense to determine if my best shot is not going to be enough and to then give up.

I was one of those people, but do want to say that it was not an open-ended commitment to descend to unlimited depth; it was in reference to the point where the DM first made contact with the diver, which I believe was around 100'.

At that point, a rescue doesn't require superhuman strength or courage. Even at second contact @ 140' or so, a rescue would have not been a huge deal.

Anything much past that would require considerable thought if all I had was an 80.

Terry

[jackleedy]

I joined recently after diving at SC in May. We Dove 3 days including the shark dive. There was a diver that had a private DM on almost all of our dives, because he was mentally slow. I couldn't help but be amazed at him and all of his different DM. They were always close by, but not controlling him, because he was capable certified diver. He dove the Wall and the shark dive. Something still just does not add up. I was a US Navy rescue swimmer and what I might do in a situation may or may not be different. One of the things they pound into you is that you are the one that is on scene with the only information that important...what can I do and still survive. My heart goes out to anyone put in this situation and I hope they know they did everything that they could. Ultimately we are responsible for ourselves and our families that depend on us.

Jack

[AlaskaDiver]

I have become engrossed in reading this thread since the beginning and am awaiting more factual details. Sadly the detailed analysis I seek may not ever be provided. Given that fact, I'd like to think that I can take away some piece of this thread that I can use to prevent accidents in my own diving and during dives where I am the designated DM. I am a volunteer DM at our local dive shop and love to point out the creatures underwater and talk about gear topside. It is really a rewarding experience and all fun dives I have been leading have ended safely. I want this to continue.

With that said, there have been occasions where one diver simply surfaces due to their own issues (sinus pressure, ear clearing problems, improper weighting, buoyancy issues and more). Until I personally see the person diving or have a better understanding of their skills, I will not take them to an area where the dive is a beyond their known skill levels. These are all divers with dramatically varying levels of newness to diving. Unless I saw an individual in a problem situation, I don't hold hands or tanks. I'm a guide on the dives.

I read what Amazz had to say and wanted to say 'Thanks' many times over to Angie. Her account of a couple in FL who continually refused assistance and were ignorant of their imminent danger is more common than one might want to think.

I was on a live boat-drop in Palau at the Pelilieu Express after being briefed that there was a 2 knot down-welling current and to stay near 40 to await the DM's hand instructions in order to move toward the reef, hook in and watch the large pelagics swim along the edge. As we approached the reef, an unexpected surge in the down-welling current followed by an even stronger up-welling current, ripped us directly toward the reef at 5 knots. Divers were scattered frantically looking for anything to slow them down. All began hitting the smooth reef. I hit my hip hard and endured a large painful bruise. Most had bloodied hands, legs or arms. We all surfaced individually. Some of the people did not have signaling devices even after the captain reminded us several times prior to entering the water. I had to wait in the water until all the other divers without sausages were retrieved before I was picked up despite following protocol. Captain said that was enough and that we were headed back to the dock. Several of these same divers were attempting to bully the captain into another dive site complaining about how much money they paid. Most missed seeing the inherent danger of the situation into which they were putting themselves.

My point here is that no matter how many briefings a DM does, no matter how many reminders of the seemingly simple, common sense preventative measures to be taken while diving advanced sites; people still will want to point the finger at someone else for their own ineptitude, omissions or errors. I know in this thread's various postings some have said that they could have changed the situation with their rescue skills and techniques. I can't definitively say those things as I was not on the dive in question and I've never had to drag a resisting diver from depth. I'm wondering why a more rapid responsive action by the DM to the female diver descending wasn't made. Others in this thread have expressed understanding of the DM's inability to retrieve the victim. I'm somewhere in the middle until I can see more of the facts since these are all speculative scenarios based on a combination of our own experiences, what has been taught in dive courses and the sparse factual data provided. I'm not surprised to read people blaming the DM on various levels, but I refuse to kill myself attempting to save the life of someone who would repeatedly and blatantly disregard my attempts to get them out of a dangerous situation.

[Thalassamania]

I really do think that we are way too focused on the end stage of the accident and not focused enough on the series of failures that lead up to that final failure.

[caseybird]

There is one great big failure evident here: The deceased decided to dive one month after a stroke. Does anyone here believe a doctor cleared her for scuba one month later? No DM can control a situation where the diver refuses to be responsible for the most basic protocol. Medical fitness to dive is not optional. If she truly wanted to get into the water, snorkeling would have be appropriate.

[bowlofpetunias]

There is one great big failure evident here: The deceased decided to dive one month after a stroke. Does anyone here believe a doctor cleared her for scuba one month later? No DM can control a situation where the diver refuses to be responsible for the most basic protocol. Medical fitness to dive is not optional. If she truly wanted to get into the water, snorkeling would have be appropriate.

I absolutely agree! The odds were stacked against this diver and DM before they got in the water!

My sympathy to Mrs Woods family but before we chose to get into the water we need to assess the risks. Sometimes we are lucky enough to have a warning that a health problem increases our risks. As adults it is our responsibility to assess those risks in a reasonable manner and make our informed choices. If the Doctor did not make it clear how inappropriate diving was at this time I would suggest that either the Doctor did not know they were planning to dive or IMHO failed to educate them adequately.

TIA and RIA's are major warning of a full blown stroke. I would be interested to know if Mrs Wood displayed any residual effects from her previous "stroke". Did anyone note less mobility on one side, weakness, or any (perhaps) slight slurring of speech?

Strokes are a form of brain injury. Symptoms of brain injury often effect risk recognition skills and result in combative behavior, inability to relate to the impact of one's behavior on others (often misunderstood as selfishness). They may act like a petulant child which seems consistent with Mrs Wood's (reported) response to the DM in the water. Stroke victims and their families need to be educated about these things. Mrs Wood may or may not have been capeable of absorbing this education..... That fact puts a lot of pressure on her family. It is hard to know when to step in and make decisions for a loved one.

This forum is supposed to be an effort to learn in a way that reduces the chance of future incidents. I would suggest that a big lesson here is for people especially Dive Operators, Instructors and DM's to be alert for the often subtle signs of "stroke". Cardiovascular disease has always been a significant problem but it is getting worse with our aging population. Often it is people who are in the higher risk category who can now afford the time and money to go on dive vacations.

Here in OZ there has been a great push for awareness using the term FAST....

Facial droop (may just look less wrinkled on one side)
Arm weakness (possibly unable to lift it above their shoulder)
Speech difficulty (often slurred or confused)
Time is of the essence a bigger one may occur at any time.. medical intervention is critical

Once again my deepest sympathy to the Woods family and DM in particular but also to those others impacted by this incident.

[Riger]

This forum is supposed to be an effort to learn in a way that reduces the chance of future incidents. I would suggest that a big lesson here is for people especially Dive Operators, Instructors and DM's to be alert for the often subtle signs of "stroke".


I understand your sentiments but wonder where one draws the line? How much should dive pro's know about medical conditions that have an impact on diving and then, even if they did identify what may be a symptom of something, should that be the grounds to disallow [-]them[/-] clients to dive or should they refer [-]them[/-] the client(s) to the dive doctor? I don't mean to to take an opposing stance, I understand where you are coming from.

Slight Detour Follows

In aviation, there is sad truth as follows;

When considering the retrofit of a fleet of aircraft to increase the (human) rate of survivability of certain types of accidents, often times a cost benefit analysis makes it cheaper to accept the risk of an accident every [insert expected period] years and pay out the insurance claims, than to make the recommended changes. This is a very cold (and impersonal) method of deciding whether or not to spend the money on such a change and is often done away from the public eye.

In some ways, I see a similarity in that dive operators could go the extra mile to improve the skills and training of their staff. They could employ more staff to exercise more vigilance over the processes they follow, provide training to enhance the staff awareness of the signs of medical conditions etc .... but at what cost? And even in the event of a serious accident, they still have to be proven to have been negligent (in a country where they can be legally pursued) before the impact becomes tangible to them.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that there are many pro-active methods that can be applied to enhance safety and reduce risk but, the result would ultimately be increased cost to the end-users and the potential loss of business for the operators.

Make no mistake, I am all for improving safety, I just don't think the operators can afford it without a significant impact on the cost to deliver a service.

(Added after posting : Scuba diving is an activity of increased risk when compared to many other recreational activities. Increased risk means increased likelihood of accidents and incidents. Short of regulating the activity, there is a point beyond which the associated risks cannot be mitigated.)

Best Regards
Richard

[bowlofpetunias]

I know what you mean and you are talking about reality...costs, and the issues of people making their own choices... I agree on all of that but DM's and Rescue Dive courses are required to take first aid training..... the tropic of Stroke and issues specific to diving are not well covered in many of those courses because they are not specific dive first aid courses. I know.. I teach them.

The goal in this area is to talk about possible preventive measures. DAN provides this type of information.... I am suggesting that as part of ongoing maintaining of skills that people should be encouraged to seek the information and be on the lookout for indicators. We all agree that ongoing practice is important to keep skills adequate. I am suggesting that encouraging ongoing learning in this area is also important.

I honestly don't know how it should/could be handled. If I was on a boat and noticed these signs... I would most likely make a friendly contact with the person and try to nicely find out how more.. then if necessary make my suggestion to them that they reconsider diving. If this did not work... I would advise the boat operator of my concern. In the end I would know I did all I could if something went wrong. I don't see this as any different from a Rescue Diver or DM going to a person on a dive and intervening to protect them from risky/dangerous actions during the dive.

I think the Dive Op and DM and Diver all are ultimately involved in decisions about when. when and where people get in the water. I think it is better to make those decisions based on knowledge.

It is up to those involved how much effort they put into their jobs. When the ship hits the sand.... their decisions may help or hurt them... and others..

JMO

[bsee65]

I can understand why some people are calling out the victim and suggesting she may have had some stroke-related episode while on the dive. In spite of all that, it doesn't relieve the DM of the responsibility to make an effective rescue. Based upon the responses here, the typical DM on a typical day should have been able to bring Mrs. Wood to the surface. I don't know, I don't have that training. I do know that handling a 50-70 year old woman behaving like a "petulant child" would be a no-brainer on dry land.

I'm all for putting some blame on the diver if she failed to disclose her medical condition, especially if it turns out that it was a factor in the accident. It's definitely a lesson to be learned that being healthy enough to walk around, or even jog, doesn't make you healthy enough to dive. The diver is 100% responsible for putting herself in a dangerous position, but that doesn't make her 100% responsible for her death. Deciding to dive with a potentially dangerous medical condition may very well have been the first error leading toward Mrs. Wood's death, but it wasn't the only one or the last.

[Riger]

Here is a question; Should (could) dive operators mandate a (recent) medical clearance certificate for all divers over a certain age? If so what age would be considered non-discriminatory but reasonable with respect to elevated risk?

Best Regards
Richard

[Riger]

I can understand why some people are calling out the victim and suggesting she may have had some stroke-related episode while on the dive. In spite of all that, it doesn't relieve the DM of the responsibility to make an effective rescue. Based upon the responses here, the typical DM on a typical day should have been able to bring Mrs. Wood to the surface. I don't know, I don't have that training. I do know that handling a 50-70 year old woman behaving like a "petulant child" would be a no-brainer on dry land.

I'm all for putting some blame on the diver if she failed to disclose her medical condition, especially if it turns out that it was a factor in the accident. It's definitely a lesson to be learned that being healthy enough to walk around, or even jog, doesn't make you healthy enough to dive. The diver is 100% responsible for putting herself in a dangerous position, but that doesn't make her 100% responsible for her death. Deciding to dive with a potentially dangerous medical condition may very well have been the first error leading toward Mrs. Wood's death, but it wasn't the only one or the last.

We are in the fortunate position of not being tasked to apportion blame in this incident however; given that most accidents and/or incidents are the result of a chain of single events and in many cases, the removal of any single link in the chain changes the outcome dramatically, surely you must agree that this is pertinent place to discuss each of those (failed) links individually or collectively no matter the degree to which that link factored into the event as a whole.

Best Regards
Richard

[bowlofpetunias]

Well put! I was typing a multi quote response and my internet dropped out and I lost it. I had typed a similar comment. No single event or individual is totally responsible here.

I have refrained from comment on the actions of the DM because I am not a DM and don't feel personally qualified to comment/judge what the DM could/should have been able to do in this situation.

I am not trying to "call out" the victim or family or doctor. I am trying to encourage people to look at this from a different but relative angle.

Dive Ops already mandate medicals for courses. I don't see it any different mandating medicals for particularly risky or dangerous sites but not the average recreational diving sites. That would be costly, hard to enforce and prone to claims of discrimination.

What I am suggesting is that a bit of observation and knowledge on the part of Instructors, DM's and others is a necessity. They can't be expected to recognize and diagnose their clients but they already do some observation now.

Someone who is obviously stressed, nervous and not able to set up their own gear set alarm bells ringing already. I have seen Boat Operators change sites to less challenging ones when they saw these warning signs. What I am suggesting here would be a similar thing.

[mjacobydc]

I hope that we don't loss sight of the fact that Mrs. Wood had made the decision to dive. No one else forced this on her. Its easier to blame someone else for our mistakes than suck it up and take responsibility for it. She made a mistake by getting in the water in the first place knowing she was 1 month post stroke. I am not quite clear on what her husband was thinking agreeing to dive. I don't know enough to comment on the DM's performance. Sure it was a chain of events but they started with Mrs. Wood.

[shoredivr]

Dive Ops already mandate medicals for courses. I don't see it any different mandating medicals for particularly risky or dangerous sites but not the average recreational diving sites. That would be costly, hard to enforce and prone to claims of discrimination.



Thank you for the common sense answer.

[tridacna]

To answer that question, look at this: 8 seconds into the video the computer shows a depth of 71' and 24 minutes no stop time. The rest of the dive goes like this:

Time...Depth...No Stop Time
0:08.......71........24........2370 psi
1:19.......111.......5........ 2045 psi
1:41.......113.......5.........2145 psi
1:52.......128.......0
2:34.......141.......4........16?? psi
2:54.......144.......5........1640 psi

Interesting that there is more no stop time at 144' than there was at 128'. I think this was either multiple dives spliced together, or a bounce dive was done and the shots were put together out of sequence. PSI at 111' seems to support this.

Also, one minute into the video it shows another diver video taping their console...

I too suspect that the video is a fake. Just too many convenient shots of his computer. Who the ******* shoots video of their computer underwater...every 30 secs? BUT: Be aware that the Oceanic Proplus 2 does not only show Deco time. It's a PITA. It shows either ATR (Air Time Remaining at that depth) or Deco. You have no control. It simply shows the most conservative amount. So you have no way of knowing what that computer is displaying in the video. And therefore your tables may be wrong. Oceanic give you no control over that at all.

[Cave Diver]

I too suspect that the video is a fake. Just too many convenient shots of his computer. Who the ******* shoots video of their computer underwater...every 30 secs? BUT: Be aware that the Oceanic Proplus 2 does not only show Deco time. It's a PITA. It shows either ATR (Air Time Remaining at that depth) or Deco. You have no control. It simply shows the most conservative amount. So you have no way of knowing what that computer is displaying in the video. And therefore your tables may be wrong. Oceanic give you no control over that at all.

The videographer has joined the board and the discussion and answered questions about the discrepencies of the video.

Take a look at this post: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4491006-post575.html

[ItsBruce]

I understand your sentiments but wonder where one draws the line? How much should dive pro's know about medical conditions that have an impact on diving and then, even if they did identify what may be a symptom of something, should that be the grounds to disallow [-]them[/-] clients to dive or should they refer [-]them[/-] the client(s) to the dive doctor? I don't mean to to take an opposing stance, I understand where you are coming from.
Richard

A very astute comment.

I remember reading about a lawsuit where an injured motorcycle rider was alleging the motorcycle maker was negligent in not making a safer motorcycle. The judge said something to the effect that people ride motorcycles because they are open, quick, responsive, etc., and that to make them as safe as cars would require them to become cars and that the plaintiff should forget it.

In California we have a legal doctrine relative to recreational activities and injuries that occur during those. It basically recognizes that certain activities are inherently risky and that this is a part of the "game." The law does not require the "rules of the game" to be changed to avoid risk.

How true it is of diving. To eliminate all risk, visit the underwater world only in a submarine. To eliminate most risk, dive only in a pool.

I do not think DMs or Instructors should be required to have medical degrees nor should dive boats have MRI machines, etc. Would it be nice? Sure. Practical? No.

If the cost of diving goes up because of requirements put on operators, divers will find alternatives, such as beach dives, where there will be no DMs, etc.

[ItsBruce]

Here is a question; Should (could) dive operators mandate a (recent) medical clearance certificate for all divers over a certain age? If so what age would be considered non-discriminatory but reasonable with respect to elevated risk?

Best Regards
Richard

In a perfect world. In our world, there is no non-discriminatory age. Even if it was 100 years, a 101 year old would find a lawyer and sue for discrimination. (Actually, the lawyer would find a 101 year old who wanted to dive, and would sue, but that is besides the point.)

So, if dive ops required everyone to have medical clearances, how many people would get them from legitimate sources? Recall that many prescription drugs can be bought on the internet using prescriptions obtained on the internet.

And, at what point would it simply be easier for divers to dive from the beach than from a boat?

[jkaterenchuk]

Thank you for the common sense answer.

Common sense answer? Maybe in your limited world. But some of use take the time to get trained in more advance diving, practise the skills that will keep us alive and make responsible choices as to when and how we dive at these "more challenging sites".

We do not need or want any more regulations because of the poor decisions of others. Be careful what you ask for or you might wake up someday to find that you have a dive site approval system run by the same government that is responsible for the terrible Canadian Health Care system.

John

[carrielsal]

I have a friend that knew Mrs. Wood. Reportedly, she had a mild stroke last month. If she were predisposed to this, a stroke at depth might explain her inability or unwillingness to comply with the DM's instruction to ascend, which turned to combativeness and anger. Not to mention the possible interactions of narcosis with the medication she was likely on due to a recent stroke.


This thread has fascinated me for a couple of days now. It has really gotten me thinking what I would do as a DM.
If this post is correct and the woman had had a stroke the previous month, had she talked to her doctor prior to this trip to find out the medical risk and any medication interactions? I am not a doctor, but I would be willing to bet a doc would say NO to diving so soon after a stroke.
Divers must take individual responsibility. I think that this woman diving exhibited reckless behavior with no regard to her own safely.

[bsee65]

If you had a stroke, do you think the doctor would just come out and tell you not to dive? Maybe she was even told to swim for light exercise as part of rehab, or maybe the subject never came up. Swimming is supposed to be great exercise after a stroke.

We just don't know the severity of her previous incident or if another incident occurred during this dive. I can appreciate that such an incident might have made her less compliant to the DM's instructions. I can appreciate that there's a good chance that she had a medical condition that should have prohibited diving. I can also appreciate that she should have been brought to the surface where she might have been treated for anything that went wrong and still be alive today.

If she had been diving a month or so earlier and had her first stroke-related incident during the dive, how would that have changed the DM's responsibility to make a successful rescue?

[alohagal]

This thread has fascinated me for a couple of days now. It has really gotten me thinking what I would do as a DM.
If this post is correct and the woman had had a stroke the previous month, had she talked to her doctor prior to this trip to find out the medical risk and any medication interactions? I am not a doctor, but I would be willing to bet a doc would say NO to diving so soon after a stroke.
Divers must take individual responsibility. I think that this woman diving exhibited reckless behavior with no regard to her own safely.
Yes and No. She had a TIA the month prior. Transient Ischemic Attack. Which is medical jargon for a mini-stroke. It is often a precursor for bigger things to come. That isn't always the case, however. But, I would bet that not too many Neurologists would give the okay for diving...so soon after a TIA, . But, for some patients it could be years before a larger stroke occurs, if at all. Treatment for TIA and stroke if you survive is preventing another stroke from occurring. I don't see how diving would ever be something that person could do again. Who is to know what kind of care she was under, and did she inform her Doctor that she was a diver and wanted to continue diving? Maybe not.

For a stroke to be classified a TIA all neurological deficits must be completely clear within 24 hours, leaving NO residual dysfunction. Most TIA's resolve within 3 hours. However, they are a warning sign of progressive cerebrovascular disease. Did this patient think she dodged a bullet? Since she had no residual after effects she was likely in denial that she would have any further complications. Denial is a big factor in peoples viewpoint of their health. She sounds like an active 68 year old who did not want to give up her activities, such as diving. She had indeed dodged a bullet. Nothing felt different to her physically, if it was a true TIA. She may have been in just enough denial to think...well if I have my husband and a DM with me I will be okay. (I was told through a PM by someone on the dive, that yes, the husband, DM and Ms. Woods were all diving together). It was a fateful error on her part. She dove, she dove deep, she was under atmospheric pressure and the bullet fired sooner rather than later. IMHO

[awap]

If she had been diving a month or so earlier and had her first stroke-related incident during the dive, how would that have changed the DM's responsibility to make a successful rescue?

I hired a private DM once. I knew him from previous trips and the OP did not have him diving that day. So I hired him for myself and my wife. It separated us from the rest of the group and gave us a good set of eyes to find things. I had no other expectation.

Was this DM involved in this incident hired to insure the safety of Mrs. Woods? If so, she did not do a very good job. But if the DM was hired to be Mrs. Woods buddy then that might be a bit different.

[mrlipis]

But if the DM was hired to be Mrs. Woods buddy then that might be a bit different.

Actually no it isn't different, she did not do a good job as a buddy either.

While we still do not know who's decision it was to have a personal DM for Ms. Woods, let's assume it was the decision of the Woods'. As a DM I would want to know why? If the DM was hired to "protect" the diver, than they had no business on that dive plan. As a DM, if I have a diver who doesn't have the confidence to dive without me, we are diving a hard bottom with a maximum of 60 ft. period.

[bowlofpetunias]

Common sense answer? Maybe in your limited world. But some of use take the time to get trained in more advance diving, practise the skills that will keep us alive and make responsible choices as to when and how we dive at these "more challenging sites".

We do not need or want any more regulations because of the poor decisions of others. Be careful what you ask for or you might wake up someday to find that you have a dive site approval system run by the same government that is responsible for the terrible Canadian Health Care system.

John

Interesting reaction John. I'm not sure how you were impacted by the terrible Canadian Health Care System but it has done pretty well for me and my family :dontknow:

I take it from you post that you do what you consider dangerous and high risk diving. With that in mind I am curious to know how often you have dive medicals done? What would trigger you to have a medical? Do you know if professional divers are required to have regular medicals and if so how often?

Our discussion of dive medical was exploring the concept of what if any factors should require a current (by current I would say yearly) medical clearance. When I think of dangerous sites... I think of Deep (will required significant 60min+ in water deco) penetration (would be impractical/impossible for other divers to safely effect a rescue). I would suggest any person conducting these types of dives should be responsible enough to have the appropriate certification, equipment and current medical anyway.

If you had a stroke, do you think the doctor would just come out and tell you not to dive? Maybe she was even told to swim for light exercise as part of rehab, or maybe the subject never came up. Swimming is supposed to be great exercise after a stroke.

If she had been diving a month or so earlier and had her first stroke-related incident during the dive, how would that have changed the DM's responsibility to make a successful rescue?

Excellent points, as stated earlier if the Woods were not adequately educated on what type of activity was appropriate there was a communication break down. That contributed to this sad chain of events and the outcome.

If the diver had her first stroke on the dive... that is a sad but unavoidable situation. Getting into the water with that known history is putting yourself and the DM into avoidable danger.

Had the DM known the history... would she have known enough to decline the job? :dontknow: a least she would have had that option

[danclem]

Hi BSEE65:

You asked four questions a bit earlier, and here are my responses.
First, we have heard both that the DM was hired to work with multiple people, and that she was hired specifically to buddy with Mrs. Wood. Can you clarify this at all?
No. I don't know what the arrangement was. There were, as you point out below, three individuals traveling/diving together: Mr and Mrs Wood and their friend from San Francisco.
Second, we have heard that Mr. Wood was diving with a friend as his buddy. This hasn't been refuted thus far. We have also heard that the dive split up with Mrs. Wood and her DM buddy, as well as one other couple, lagging behind and separated from the dive leader and your group. Can you confirm that Mr. Wood and his buddy were with you and the dive leader during this incident?
Once again, I don't know how this group and the DM were paired up. I did not see Mr Wood with the lead DM while we were diving. There was no sign to abort the dive and resurface, which I believe would have occurred if the DM's knew there was a buddy separation/missing diver event. I am also using the term DM, but I do not know the certification levels for the leader and "sweep."

After making sure my "insta-buddy" was on the reference line for his 3 minute stop, I descended back to the reef and to check out some corals for a future photo dive. There were several divers exploring the area below the boat. I surfaced with the last divers, and by that time Mr Wood had already boarded, removed his gear, re-entered the water, and was a hundred yards or so from the boat. Their friend was on board, so my impression was that they surfaced before the main group of divers, but I don't know this to be factually correct.
Third, there has been discussion about the circumstances of the hiring of the private DM. Do you have knowledge of whether the DM was hired by choice, or required by the dive shop? In either case, did you learn what the reason was for the private DM to be hired?
No knowledge of the DM arrangement.
Finally, was Mrs. Wood 50-ish or 68? We've heard both and 68 seems more likely bsed upon the retirement, but I don't believe this was ever settled.
Mrs Wood was 68. As I mentioned in an earlier post, she appeared quite fit, was not over-weight, and if I had to guess her age I would have been at least ten years too young.
Hope this helps a bit.

Dan

[jackleedy]

I agree that the first tradgic mistake was to dive in the first place. We are responsible for our own actions. What if they had decided on a skydiving vacation?
As with any risky recreation; mountain climbing, skydiving, scuba, skiing, etc., there are risky, hence the name. You have to be accountable for your gear, health and conditions of activity. I would not go mountain climbing with a bumb hand in the middle of winter with a possible storm on the way. There are things that the DM could have done to help facilitate a rescue, but until we know that side it, it is hard to say. Bottom line it was an accident not a malicious act.

[garrett58]

Common sense answer? Maybe in your limited world. But some of use take the time to get trained in more advance diving, practise the skills that will keep us alive and make responsible choices as to when and how we dive at these "more challenging sites".

We do not need or want any more regulations because of the poor decisions of others. Be careful what you ask for or you might wake up someday to find that you have a dive site approval system run by the same government that is responsible for the terrible Canadian Health Care system.

John

i see by your profile that you live in pa how would you know anything about the canadian health care system other than what you hear on fox news. but i agree that we dont need any more regulation on scuba

[mrlipis]

i see by your profile that you live in pa how would you know anything about the canadian health care system other than what you hear on fox news. but i agree that we dont need any more regulation on scuba
I always find the hypocrisy in people who want to rip Fox news. They have been brainwashed by the 95% liberal media, have never watched the channel and the only thing they know about it, is what they heard on Letterman or read in the L.A. times.
I see from your profile, you are from California. What a great model for our country.
Find me one person who has gone north for medical treatment and I will find you a hundred who have come south.

[Robert Brauser]

A tragedy indeed. I have been diving with Stuarts for over 10 years and had my son on a Shark dive when he was 13. I dove with them recently with another young family member on a Shark dive and think highly of their operation and competency. A great deal of the outcome of a dive is in the control of the diver. Make mistakes and a rapid demise may await. Diving has many pitfalls and the list of statistics remains an open book.

Training is key. Self reliance is ultimately essential. Learning from mistakes allows the diver to become a better diver. It is sad that this lost soul will not have the opportunity to learn from whatever the error was that cascaded into a tragic end.

I am fortunate to have been lucky enough to learn from mistakes that could have resulted in similar tragedy. A qualified buddy or better is a good thing to have, as mine was able to save me from an uncontrolled descent to 176' plagued by the consuming effects of nitrogen narcosis grossly narrowing my ability to rescue myself.

I only wish she could thank that person who may have saved her Life as I was able to say to mine.

[Cave Diver]

I am fortunate to have been lucky enough to learn from mistakes that could have resulted in similar tragedy. A qualified buddy or better is a good thing to have, as mine was able to save me from an uncontrolled descent to 176' plagued by the consuming effects of nitrogen narcosis grossly narrowing my ability to rescue myself.

I only wish she could thank that person who may have saved her Life as I was able to say to mine.

Sounds like an interesting story. Perhaps you'd consider posting it in the near misses and lessons learned section and maybe your rescuer can save someone else as well.

[shoredivr]

We do not need or want any more regulations because of the poor decisions of others. Be careful what you ask for or you might wake up someday to find that you have a dive site approval system run by the same government that is responsible for the terrible Canadian Health Care system.
John

I see I should have bolded the following in BOP's quote:


Dive Ops already mandate medicals for courses. I don't see it any different mandating medicals for particularly risky or dangerous sites but not the average recreational diving sites. That would be costly, hard to enforce and prone to claims of discrimination.



In Quebec there is already government meddling with diving; the government organization that is doing the meddling is FQAS. Fédération Québécoise des Activités Subaquatiques (http://www.fqas.qc.ca/) (Last time I checked, there is no english translation.)

In this thread you'll see that I'm not in favour of the FQAS approach at all:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3893356

In Quebec, we do have this kind of control due to the constantly harsh cold conditions in the St-Lawrence... […]So, if you want to dive anywhere in the province and if you want to rent gear or buy air, you need both your c-card and your FQAS card, which is only good for 3 years. When it expires, you need to go to a FQAS-approved instructor (or directly the FQAS office) and prove that you meet one of the following:

1- 10 dives in the last 3 years in conditions that meets those in Quebec
2- Took a refresher course AND did a supervised dive with an instructor
3- Passed a certification
[....]


What really happens NorthO, is this:

The Ontario part of the St. Lawrence River around Brockville and Rockport becomes part of the annual stampede of Quebecois/e divers who don't want to put up with the FQAS nonsense...


The reason I said cash grab is because you have to pay for the FQAS card even if you fit #1 of NorthO's listed FQAS requirements (have 10 dives in last 3 years in conditions like Quebec diving).

In this thread dated 2004, the price for getting your yearly FQAS card is $17. I'm sure it's more now.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ontario-fresh-water-freaks/68602-viz-morrisons-quarry-2.html

Here's two people's experiences with an FQAS "dive inspector" at that same quarry in August, 2008.

Ontario Diving (http://www.ontariodiving.com/showthread.php?t=9480&highlight=FQAS)


To the OP: while there are many ways of encouraging divers to stay current with their skills, surely the manner and method experienced by the two people in the OD posts is not a good example.

And how exactly are the dive inspectors going to police the max 60 ft for open water divers, anyway?


As an aside, I have no personal complaints with our health care system, it has been there when I needed it, and I have not had to mortgage my house to get it. To each their own.

[bowlofpetunias]

Interesting how my comments about Dive Ops considering asking for a current medical for PARTICULARLY DANGEROUS dives (like they do before we can take a course) has turned into Government Regulation... I figure that is a pretty big leap!

[shoredivr]

Yes, this is a quick reflex for some :D.

Originally I was thinking of replying to this but you beat me to it:

Here is a question; Should (could) dive operators mandate a (recent) medical clearance certificate for all divers over a certain age? If so what age would be considered non-discriminatory but reasonable with respect to elevated risk?

Best Regards
Richard

As I'm over 50 and had to check "Over 40" off on a recent course waiver, I resemble that remark ;).

By the time I'd gotten all steamed up over potentially being over a certain unspecified age, you'd made the post I quoted.

I step away from the computer to do some actual work, then jkaterenchuck batted my post and the Canadian medical system around all in one swoop, and here we are, miles from the OP....;)

[bowlofpetunias]

Yes, this is a quick reflex for some :D.

As I'm over 50 and had to check "Over 40" off on a recent course waiver, I resemble that remark ;).

By the time I'd gotten all steamed up over potentially being over a certain unspecified age, you'd made the post I quoted.

I step away from the computer to do some actual work, then jkaterenchuck batted my post and the Canadian medical system around all in one swoop, and here we are, miles from the OP....;)

:popcorn:funny how that happens:shakehead:
You think you have it bad.... next year when I hit 60 :shocked2: (how'd I get there so quick) some people will expect me to self destruct when I hit the water :doh:

[jkaterenchuk]

i see by your profile that you live in pa how would you know anything about the canadian health care system other than what you hear on fox news. but i agree that we dont need any more regulation on scuba

Because I am Canadian and happen to have a green card so I can live in the USA. I also happen to travel extensively in other countries and am just finishing up a 2 month trip in Thailand.

Not only do I know about it I have had extensive experience with treatments in both the USA and Canadian systems.

I just choose to put limited information in internet profiles so you might want to not assume what I know and do not know.

John

[jkaterenchuk]

I step away from the computer to do some actual work, then jkaterenchuck batted my post and the Canadian medical system around all in one swoop, and here we are, miles from the OP....;)

This thread was miles away from the OP after about page 5. Since then aside from a couple of posts from people that were actually there its been nothing but the same old monday morning quarterbacking over and over again.

By the way my comments to your post was to reinforce that common sense was way too broad of a statement. You thought it was a good thing and I think its a terrible thing so how could it be common sense. I would never want the dive operators using a medical screening so that they can make a decision what dive site I should or should not dive and certainly not because someone's lack of responsibility and accountability caused that to happen. There are too many other agenda that can come into play with such a requirement of which most would not be in my best interest but rather in the best interest of the dive operator or their insurance company. In fact I would say that most family doctors have no real knowledge about what does or does not effect diving and would most likely error on the side of conservatism. If we all followed that model then none of us would be diving either recreational or technical since the No Decompression Tables you are using are not an exact science.

ANY AND ALL DIVING IS RISKY. Some of us choose to learn what the risks are and how to minimize them and what factor cause a shift one way or the other. And then we dive with a plan rather than being a tourist expecting someone else like a DM or Shop to protect us and keep us safe. If you ask me that attitude which is displayed by many recreational divers over and over again each day is far more dangerous than any deep, long decompression, rebreather or cave dive I have done.

The comments about the Canadian Health Care system was me being sarcastic to make the piont that it was not common sense. Although, I have extensive first hand experience in the Canadain and USA medical systems and some in those of European and Asian countries. I could go on about this subject but it would be a waste of time in a scuba diving forum.

John

[bowlofpetunias]

This thread was miles away from the OP after about page 5. Since then aside from a couple of posts from people that were actually there its been nothing but the same old monday morning quarterbacking over and over again.

John

The information from the top of this forum

Accidents and Incidents This forum is for the discussion of diving Accidents and Incidents. Please read the message at the top of the forum before posting threads or responses. Memorial threads can be posted in the Passings (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/passings/) forum.

This is a fully moderated forum, dedicated to the systematic analysis of accidents and incidents. Posts will be reviewed for compliance with the rules of accident analysis before they are posted. Patience is important here.


You may call it Monday Morning Quarterbacking but some of us call it examining contributing factors to an incident so those who are participating and those who read the thread later can learn. The goal of this forum is to prevent future Accidents and Incidents by learning everything we can from ones that have occurred. That means the threads may wander to allow us to examine different angles. I would suggest that if people are continuing to learn from whatever tangent it has taken the forum is still serving it's purpose.

[jkaterenchuk]

The information from the top of this forum

Accidents and Incidents This forum is for the discussion of diving Accidents and Incidents. Please read the message at the top of the forum before posting threads or responses. Memorial threads can be posted in the Passings (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/passings/) forum.

This is a fully moderated forum, dedicated to the systematic analysis of accidents and incidents. Posts will be reviewed for compliance with the rules of accident analysis before they are posted. Patience is important here.


You may call it Monday Morning Quarterbacking but some of us call it examining contributing factors to an incident so those who are participating and those who read the thread later can learn. The goal of this forum is to prevent future Accidents and Incidents by learning everything we can from ones that have occurred. That means the threads may wander to allow us to examine different angles. I would suggest that if people are continuing to learn from whatever tangent it has taken the forum is still serving it's purpose.

Well this is another example of a total worthless posting and that now make 626 posts. I guess you assume your the only one that understands the purpose for this forum such that you needed to show it to me.

I will continue with my opinion and you can continue your speculation. Good luck to anyone that thinks the time to read all 626 posts is useful to improve their diving. My advise is stop reading after about page 5 and you will have gotten 99% of the useful learning and then use the time you would of otherwise wasted reading the rest to go out and dive instead of internet diving.

Since you show AU as your home I suspect your opinion about predive approval comes from the regulations in place in AU that are not well know by divers in other countries. What might be useful would be for you to outline what these reguations are so that others understand your opinion and bias and then back up the fact that they are useful by presenting actual specific studies that indicate the divers in AU incur less accidents and incidents then divers in other countries and that this is directly attributed to these regulations.

John

[bowlofpetunias]

Well this is another example of a total worthless posting and that now make 626 posts. I guess you assume your the only one that understands the purpose for this forum such that you needed to show it to me.

I will continue with my opinion and you can continue your speculation. Good luck to anyone that thinks the time to read all 626 posts is useful to improve their diving. My advise is stop reading after about page 5 and you will have gotten 99% of the useful learning and then use the time you would of otherwise wasted reading the rest to go out and dive instead of internet diving.

John

I am sorry you have such a low opinion of your post but I certainly woundn't want to disagree with you!

[Tricia]

Folks,

Several of you have raised the issue of having a medical certificate/check before diving. Since I am about to go for my new one next Monday (I have to get one each year), I thought I'd share.

I'll be diving this summer with the Club Med at either Turks & Caicos or in the Bahamas (I'm a single diver and I like their set-up). Anyone who dives with CM and lives in France (even an American like me) is required to arrive at the resort with a certificate from a French doctor who holds a specialised qualification (don't ask me to translate the name, but it's sub-aquatic something or other and the doctor does special training to get it). The doctors I've seen over the years have all been scuba divers themselves.

The doc first does a total med exam of me (poking around my ears, nose, checking my teeth and asking the last time I saw the dentist, etc.). Then he listens to my heart and lungs and has me exhale through a spirometre (?) - a machine where you exhale and it registers your lung capacity. The he makes me do some sort of exercise to get my heart rate up, etc. Could be a few minutes on an exercise bike, one time I had to do deep knee bends while he counted to 45 - God, did my knees hurt after that! Then he checks my pulse, heart rate and breathing again to see how I recover from sudden, vigorous activity. The doc also goes over my medical history and specifically asks about any recent medical incidents (this is where he would find out if I had just had a stroke, like Mrs. Wood).

I'm probably leaving something out, but the point is that by the time you're done, the dive doc knows if you are physically capable of diving or not. Now, next Monday will be interesting because I've gained weight this past year and - despite several attempts to quit - am still smoking. I won't at all be surprised if he refuses me and tells me to clean up my act and come see him in a month and he'll decide then. These docs have the power to do that and they will.

I know that the States doesn't have this type of system, but I know there are of course, doctors there specialised in diving medicine. I strongly encourage all divers over the age of 40 (or maybe younger, deopending your med history) to go and get checked by one before diving. Yes, we all love to dive, but it's stupid to risk your life when this is so easy to check out BEFORE you go diving.

Best regards,
Tricia

[jkaterenchuk]

I am sorry you have such a low opinion of your post but I certainly woundn't want to disagree with you!

Sorry to correct you but you made post 626 which I quoted and I had a low opinion of your post. Now I have a low opinion of you since you completely ignored my reasonable request to expand upon the AU regulations and the documented results they have for improving diver safety. Since you tout wanting to use this forum so that people can learn it would seem that you and the AU regulation might have something to prove to us less regulated divers in other countries.

John

[jkaterenchuk]

Folks,

I know that the States doesn't have this type of system, but I know there are of course, doctors there specialised in diving medicine. I strongly encourage all divers over the age of 40 (or maybe younger, deopending your med history) to go and get checked by one before diving. Yes, we all love to dive, but it's stupid to risk your life when this is so easy to check out BEFORE you go diving.

Best regards,
Tricia

Tricia

I think you have a good point that people should get yearly check-ups so I do not want to down play this point with my next comments. I also appologize in advance for using your case as an example but your posting is timely and it helps me to explain my point further.

I see a glaring inconsistent hole in your point that "its stupid to risk your life". Where is the line drawn medically. You say you smoke and I am assuming that you did not start between your last appointment and this next one. Smoking puts you in a higher risk category for a DCS incident and potentially hypercapnia incident. If you smoke then why does the doctor OK you to dive? If not then what is the criteria he would use and is that a medically valid criteria that all his fellow diving doctors would also use to restrict other divers?

Let alone the risk you are taking outside of diving on your personal health with smoking and its effects on your health. I am sure you realize people die from it every day but you continue to do it and ignore the opinions of the medical community and the Surgeon Generals Warning on every pack. But if the diving doctor says I cannot dive because I smoke then thats bad and I should not dive. I suspect you already know that its not a good thing and do not need a diving Doc to tell you.

I respect your right to decide if you want to smoke or not. And should you have a and incident when diving in which the fact that you smoke is a contributing cause then I do not want to have to live with regulations that now allow people to say I cannot dive because I smoke (which I do not). Similarily, I suspect you and every other smoker in the world would not be very receptive to smoking being outlawed in your non diving life because someone died from it.

Anyways, I have attempted to support my opinion that regulating a medical clearance to determine what kind of dives you are permitted to do is not a good thing and is subject to vagueness and agenda's which are not in my best interest. So I will not continue to make this point further. On the other hand those that have suggested that it would be a good thing have brought nothing to the table in terms of facts that show the regulations improve diver safety.

John

[shoredivr]

By the way my comments to your post was to reinforce that common sense was way too broad of a statement. You thought it was a good thing and I think its a terrible thing so how could it be common sense. I would never want the dive operators using a medical screening so that they can make a decision what dive site I should or should not dive and certainly not because someone's lack of responsibility and accountability caused that to happen. There are too many other agenda that can come into play with such a requirement of which most would not be in my best interest but rather in the best interest of the dive operator or their insurance company. In fact I would say that most family doctors have no real knowledge about what does or does not effect diving and would most likely error on the side of conservatism. If we all followed that model then none of us would be diving either recreational or technical since the No Decompression Tables you are using are not an exact science.


John

I don't think you read this post.




In Quebec there is already government meddling with diving; the government organization that is doing the meddling is FQAS. Fédération Québécoise des Activités Subaquatiques (http://www.fqas.qc.ca/) (Last time I checked, there is no english translation.)

In this thread you'll see that I'm not in favour of the FQAS approach at all:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3893356

I agree that most MDs do not have knowledge of what does/does not affect diving.

And I agree that any statistics about effectiveness of gov't/dive agency screening divers for health reasons (eg CMAS, BSAC, AU etc) would be valuable to this discussion.

[ItsBruce]

I think it is prudent for divers to have regular medical examinations. Having read Tricia's post I will probably have a doctor with scuba experience do my next one.

I do not like the idea of the government or any other agency telling me if I am fit to dive. I will make that decision based on what I learn from my doctor and/or those with whom I consult. If I am at greater risk, I want to be the one to make the choice about whether to expose myself to it.

While I don't want the government or an agency telling me if I am "fit to dive," I recognize that the dive operator and my buddy should have input into the matter. If I get into trouble, it may fall to my buddy to rescue me or to the dive op to arrange for evacuation. Either way, it could spoil someone else's dive, day or trip, and I would not want to do that. In fact, I do not have the right to do that.

Just as my buddy had the unconditional right to thumb a dive for any reason, my buddy and the dive op have the right to thumb it before I get on the boat or get into the water. If one of them does, will I be unhappy. Sure. But, I assume the risk of being unhappy in exchange for being allowed to go onto the dive boat or have a dive buddy. If I am unwilling to assume that particular risk, there are plenty of local beaches.

Just my 2 psi worth.

[Grover48]

A prevailing scenario is a person who thinks things will be all right anyway. As a fireman, I see it over and over again where a patient will leave out medical history when we respond to a request for medical aid because they don't think it is relevant. Then the actions we take don't alleviate the symptoms because I don't have sufficient info to make an informed decision. Perhaps this is what happen in this case. She had not had any symptoms for the previous few weeks and thought "It will be OK."

A persons actions may not be predicated on self harm, but result in grave harm because of the lack of pertinent information being given to someone who could help make a better decision.

[Cave Diver]

My advise is stop reading after about page 5 and you will have gotten 99% of the useful learning and then use the time you would of otherwise wasted reading the rest to go out and dive instead of internet diving.


If your opinion is that this thread is so worthless, why have you contined to participate instead of taking your own advice?

[bowlofpetunias]

I think it is prudent for divers to have regular medical examinations. Having read Tricia's post I will probably have a doctor with scuba experience do my next one.

I do not like the idea of the government or any other agency telling me if I am fit to dive. I will make that decision based on what I learn from my doctor and/or those with whom I consult. If I am at greater risk, I want to be the one to make the choice about whether to expose myself to it.

While I don't want the government or an agency telling me if I am "fit to dive," I recognize that the dive operator and my buddy should have input into the matter. If I get into trouble, it may fall to my buddy to rescue me or to the dive op to arrange for evacuation. Either way, it could spoil someone else's dive, day or trip, and I would not want to do that. In fact, I do not have the right to do that.

Just as my buddy had the unconditional right to thumb a dive for any reason, my buddy and the dive op have the right to thumb it before I get on the boat or get into the water. If one of them does, will I be unhappy. Sure. But, I assume the risk of being unhappy in exchange for being allowed to go onto the dive boat or have a dive buddy. If I am unwilling to assume that particular risk, there are plenty of local beaches.

Just my 2 psi worth.

Well put as usual ItsBruce I find we are supporting basically the same position with a slightly different way of expressing it. Informed consent is the real issue and the best person to give accurate up to date diving health information should be a dive doctor.

The person/operation who may need to rescue you or rely on you for assistance has a right to make a decision about what they get themselves into as well. I have not at any point said that I think there should be government regulated dive medicals.

Just as a dive operator will decide not to put divers into a site/course based on site conditions, training and experience levels they may consider health issue to be relevant as well. As long as they tell me their requirements before I put down my money I have the right to support or not support their business. I do not have the right to put their business, employees and patrons at risk by knowingly hiding relevant information (my .02).

A prevailing scenario is a person who thinks things will be all right anyway. As a fireman, I see it over and over again where a patient will leave out medical history when we respond to a request for medical aid because they don't think it is relevant. Then the actions we take don't alleviate the symptoms because I don't have sufficient info to make an informed decision. Perhaps this is what happen in this case. She had not had any symptoms for the previous few weeks and thought "It will be OK."

A persons actions may not be predicated on self harm, but result in grave harm because of the lack of pertinent information being given to someone who could help make a better decision.

I too have seen this situation unfold many times while I was working as a Paramedic. IMHO communication breakdowns can and do contribute to many deaths. In my opinion that is the case in this incident.

[bleeb]

The information from the top of this forum

Accidents and Incidents This forum is for the discussion of diving Accidents and Incidents. Please read the message at the top of the forum before posting threads or responses. Memorial threads can be posted in the Passings (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/passings/) forum.

This is a fully moderated forum, dedicated to the systematic analysis of accidents and incidents. Posts will be reviewed for compliance with the rules of accident analysis before they are posted. Patience is important here.

Ok, getting even more off topic here, but this is a little bit of a misquote of TOS of this forum, or may be a cut-and-paste error. The second paragraph quoted, "This is a fully moderated forum..." does NOT apply to Accidents and Incidents as a whole. This paragraph is specifically talking about the Mishap Analysis forum, where every post requires a moderator's explicit approval before it becomes visible to anyone else.

[bowlofpetunias]

Ok, getting even more off topic here, but this is a little bit of a misquote of TOS of this forum, or may be a cut-and-paste error. The second paragraph quoted, "This is a fully moderated forum..." does NOT apply to Accidents and Incidents as a whole. This paragraph is specifically talking about the Mishap Analysis forum, where every post requires a moderator's explicit approval before it becomes visible to anyone else.

Shall we call it a cut and paste error then? :blinking: The point I was trying to make was that discussing all aspects of the Incident is consistent with the purpose of this SB Forum in general and therefore this thread in particular.

[bleeb]

Shall we call it a cut and paste error then? :blinking: The point I was trying to make was that discussing all aspects of the Incident is consistent with the purpose of this SB Forum in general and therefore this thread in particular.

No argument here with that reasoning. :cool2: I just wanted to clarify the other thing, on the small chance that it might cause this thread to wander further off than even this little diversion of ours. Not that that's happened before in this thread. :eyebrow:

[bowlofpetunias]

Interesting reaction John. I'm not sure how you were impacted by the terrible Canadian Health Care System but it has done pretty well for me and my family :dontknow:

I take it from you post that you do what you consider dangerous and high risk diving. With that in mind I am curious to know how often you have dive medicals done? What would trigger you to have a medical? Do you know if professional divers are required to have regular medicals and if so how often?

Our discussion of dive medical was exploring the concept of what if any factors should require a current (by current I would say yearly) medical clearance. When I think of dangerous sites... I think of Deep (will required significant 60min+ in water deco) penetration (would be impractical/impossible for other divers to safely effect a rescue). I would suggest any person conducting these types of dives should be responsible enough to have the appropriate certification, equipment and current medical anyway.

Well this is another example of a total worthless posting and that now make 626 posts. I guess you assume your the only one that understands the purpose for this forum such that you needed to show it to me.

I will continue with my opinion and you can continue your speculation.

Your speculation on the following is wrong and if you want this information you are free to access it on the net.
Since you show AU as your home I suspect your opinion about predive approval comes from the regulations in place in AU that are not well know by divers in other countries. What might be useful would be for you to outline what these reguations are so that others understand your opinion and bias and then back up the fact that they are useful by presenting actual specific studies that indicate the divers in AU incur less accidents and incidents then divers in other countries and that this is directly attributed to these regulations.

John

Sorry to correct you but you made post 626 which I quoted and I had a low opinion of your post. Now I have a low opinion of you since you completely ignored my reasonable request to expand upon the AU regulations and the documented results they have for improving diver safety. Since you tout wanting to use this forum so that people can learn it would seem that you and the AU regulation might have something to prove to us less regulated divers in other countries.

John

As you completely ignored my earlier reasonable request ( With that in mind I am curious to know how often you have dive medicals done? What would trigger you to have a medical? Do you know if professional divers are required to have regular medicals and if so how often?) I do not feel compelled spend my time conducting research for you based on your assumption that it is the basis for my submissions in this thread. My submissions are based on my areas of expertise and if you ever come to Australia please let me know and I will try to arrange for you to sit in on one of my classes.

Frankly you flatter yourself if you think your stating you have a low opinion of me is of any significance to me. I have seen nothing in your posts that generated any desire to impress you.

"Every person is my superior in that I may learn from them" I live by that adage so I stay open minded enough to learn from everyone no matter how good or bad their interpersonal skills are.

[jkaterenchuk]

With that in mind I am curious to know how often you have dive medicals done? What would trigger you to have a medical? Do you know if professional divers are required to have regular medicals and if so how often

Frankly you flatter yourself if you think your stating you have a low opinion of me is of any significance to me. I have seen nothing in your posts that generated any desire to impress you.

"Every person is my superior in that I may learn from them" I live by that adage so I stay open minded enough to learn from everyone no matter how good or bad their interpersonal skills are.

I earlier said that I was finished posting on this thread. However, since you seem to feel the need to bring up many of my past posts then I will respond to this one.

I have them yearly. Additionally, based upon the type of diving and in a proactive manner I have just scheduled to have a TEE done to determine if I might have a PFO. Which is a good example of where the Medical and Medical Insurance community does not necessarily do what is in the best interest of the patient or believe they are better to make the decision of what is in the patients best interest. Long story but let me just say they do not ALL actively support paying for proactive testing for a PFO although if you end up getting a severe case of DCS they MIGHT pay however you might not be around any longer to take the test depending upon the extent of your PFO and the dive profile. In my case I would rather make the decision myself in advance and that is why I will be paying for the test out of my pocket and regardless of the reluctant medical professionals.

I have not idea what professional divers do and whom you are considering professional divers. If you mean commercial divers I also have no idea what they do.

I decide for myself the timing and the type of medical clearance I need based upon taking responsibility for my own actions and recongnizing that if I die while diving the ones that suffer are the people left behind in my family. I am capable of deciding this because I do not approach the diving like a tourist that expects others to keep him/her safe when in the water. Instead I approach it with a healthy respect that on any one dive I might die even on a recreational dive and if I am going to engage in this type of risk then I want to understand it fully, assess the value of taking the risk and then take planned steps to minimize the risk or decide not to take it.

I am not going to respond to your condenscenting comments in this posting as it appears you do not even recognize when you are belittling. I will however appologize for the one I made earlier as a response to yours.

I am finished posting on this thread regardless of any more comments. If someone is interested I would be pleased to comment thru PM's

John

[thanksforallthefish]

I earlier said that I was finished posting on this thread. However, since you seem to feel the need to bring up many of my past posts then I will respond to this one.

I have them yearly. Additionally, based upon the type of diving and in a proactive manner I have just scheduled to have a TEE done to determine if I might have a PFO. Which is a good example of where the Medical and Medical Insurance community does not necessarily do what is in the best interest of the patient or believe they are better to make the decision of what is in the patients best interest. Long story but let me just say they do not ALL actively support paying for proactive testing for a PFO although if you end up getting a severe case of DCS they MIGHT pay however you might not be around any longer to take the test depending upon the extent of your PFO and the dive profile. In my case I would rather make the decision myself in advance and that is why I will be paying for the test out of my pocket and regardless of the reluctant medical professionals.

I have not idea what professional divers do and whom you are considering professional divers. If you mean commercial divers I also have no idea what they do.

I decide for myself the timing and the type of medical clearance I need based upon taking responsibility for my own actions and recongnizing that if I die while diving the ones that suffer are the people left behind in my family. I am capable of deciding this because I do not approach the diving like a tourist that expects others to keep him/her safe when in the water. Instead I approach it with a healthy respect that on any one dive I might die even on a recreational dive and if I am going to engage in this type of risk then I want to understand it fully, assess the value of taking the risk and then take planned steps to minimize the risk or decide not to take it.

I am not going to respond to your condenscenting comments in this posting as it appears you do not even recognize when you are belittling. I will however appologize for the one I made earlier as a response to yours.

I am finished posting on this thread regardless of any more comments. If someone is interested I would be pleased to comment thru PM's

John


are you sure??

[ScubaSteve]

This thread was miles away from the OP after about page 5. Since then aside from a couple of posts from people that were actually there its been nothing but the same old monday morning quarterbacking over and over again.

By the way my comments to your post was to reinforce that common sense was way too broad of a statement. You thought it was a good thing and I think its a terrible thing so how could it be common sense. I would never want the dive operators using a medical screening so that they can make a decision what dive site I should or should not dive and certainly not because someone's lack of responsibility and accountability caused that to happen. There are too many other agenda that can come into play with such a requirement of which most would not be in my best interest but rather in the best interest of the dive operator or their insurance company. In fact I would say that most family doctors have no real knowledge about what does or does not effect diving and would most likely error on the side of conservatism. If we all followed that model then none of us would be diving either recreational or technical since the No Decompression Tables you are using are not an exact science.

ANY AND ALL DIVING IS RISKY. Some of us choose to learn what the risks are and how to minimize them and what factor cause a shift one way or the other. And then we dive with a plan rather than being a tourist expecting someone else like a DM or Shop to protect us and keep us safe. If you ask me that attitude which is displayed by many recreational divers over and over again each day is far more dangerous than any deep, long decompression, rebreather or cave dive I have done.

The comments about the Canadian Health Care system was me being sarcastic to make the piont that it was not common sense. Although, I have extensive first hand experience in the Canadain and USA medical systems and some in those of European and Asian countries. I could go on about this subject but it would be a waste of time in a scuba diving forum.

John

Well this is another example of a total worthless posting and that now make 626 posts. I guess you assume your the only one that understands the purpose for this forum such that you needed to show it to me.

I will continue with my opinion and you can continue your speculation. Good luck to anyone that thinks the time to read all 626 posts is useful to improve their diving. My advise is stop reading after about page 5 and you will have gotten 99% of the useful learning and then use the time you would of otherwise wasted reading the rest to go out and dive instead of internet diving.

Since you show AU as your home I suspect your opinion about predive approval comes from the regulations in place in AU that are not well know by divers in other countries. What might be useful would be for you to outline what these reguations are so that others understand your opinion and bias and then back up the fact that they are useful by presenting actual specific studies that indicate the divers in AU incur less accidents and incidents then divers in other countries and that this is directly attributed to these regulations.

John



I am sorry you have such a low opinion of your post but I certainly woundn't want to disagree with you!


I will. Sounds like someone is done adding value to this thread and should therefore just stop posting. For those of us that did (and may continue to) post, and continue reading, it is posts like theirs that complain about the direction of a thread that push people away. Not the "Monday Morning Quarterbacking".

[Kksmama]

I've read the thread over the past few days and really appreciate everyone (especially witnesses) who took the time to post.

I find Rip Van Winkle stories interesting - the ones in which a person awakes and finds the world has changed while they slept. And I guess I'm living one now, as I was an avid diver before beginning a family and am just now back in the water after a sixteen year hiatus. This one thread has given me insight into many changes! I have a lot to learn/relearn and I am glad to have the internet (a big change) to help. It is very cool to have a virtual dive shop to hang out in, listening to dive talk and learning from experienced professionals. Thanks to all of you.

[ScubaSteve]

It really is great to have a place like ScubaBoard isn't it. You may not agree with everybody, but almost each and every post will get your neurons firing and get you thinking. It is this exchange that really enables the sharing of information and ideas. It is for this reason that I tend to usually care less about the "direction" of a thread as long as it seems to be going somewhere useful IMO. There is almost always something to be learned from everybody out there.

Welcome to the board and dive safely withing your training and comfort but dive often.

I've read the thread over the past few days and really appreciate everyone (especially witnesses) who took the time to post.

I find Rip Van Winkle stories interesting - the ones in which a person awakes and finds the world has changed while they slept. And I guess I'm living one now, as I was an avid diver before beginning a family and am just now back in the water after a sixteen year hiatus. This one thread has given me insight into many changes! I have a lot to learn/relearn and I am glad to have the internet (a big change) to help. It is very cool to have a virtual dive shop to hang out in, listening to dive talk and learning from experienced professionals. Thanks to all of you.

[Michelle's Guy]

I stopped reading about page 23 for lack of time. Can anyone tell me if onlyhalcyon ever came back? If so, what did he/she report? Or what page is their post?

[bowlofpetunias]

I stopped reading about page 23 for lack of time. Can anyone tell me if onlyhalcyon ever came back? If so, what did he/she report? Or what page is their post?


Hi there I see you are fairly new to posting on the board so welcome! I am not sure how many posts you have set per page so I am not sure what page 23 is for you but I can give you a couple easy tips... (gotta be easy for me... I am not very computer literate:shakehead:)


You could go to onlyhalcyon's members page (easier is way is to click on the last post you see of theirs.. then to to Statistics there you can click on see all posts by Member and you can scan to find the post you are looking for.

You could also go to New Posts or navigate to the Accidents and Incidents Forum.... when you locate the thread you are interested in look to the right where it says number of replies... left click on the number and you will see a screen with a list of people who have posted in that thread and the number of posts. Currently it only shows 1 post by onlyhalcoyon in this thread so there has not been another post since the one you saw.

Hope this helps.. it took ages before someone told me about those tricks so I am just passing on the assistence I was given... Some great people and information on here welcome aboard:D

*end of hijack*

[Grover48]

Hope this helps.. it took ages before someone told me about those tricks so I am just passing on the assistence I was given... Some great people and information on here welcome aboard:D

*end of hijack*


You are welcome for the tip. Many have said thanks since I posted it a while back.

[Michelle's Guy]

Possible but sounds unlikely. I've seen it happen, but the reactions from this diver as reported don't seem to support incompetence - but clearly I could be wrong as I have zero first or second hand knowledge. Just something *feels* wrong about this incident. Doesn't *feel* like an incompetent getting it all wrong and getting buttons mixed up.

But something else feels wrong too. Getting the DM at the last minute... hmmm... If I were a little more CSI'd up I'd be dreaming up theories by the minute...

Here's a theory for you...just a speculation... Has her body ever surfaced? If not, that could indicate that she was over weighted. Perhaps she was assigned the DM by someone else as a condition to be allowed to dive this site (dive master, boat captain???)... she intended to end her life... she placed extra weight in her BC pockets before the dive...???? Pure speculation I realize!!! Could it have aided the rapid descent with the DM trying to inflate her B.C.?

[shoredivr]

Here's a theory for you...just a speculation... Pure speculation I realize!!!

Sigh.

[Thalassamania]

Here's a theory for you...just a speculation... Pure speculation I realize!!!

I think that martians killed her with a long range water penetrating ray gun.

[InTheDrink]

Actually Thal, I have it on good authority that she was collateral damage - the usual Mantas with lasers Vs Giant Radioative Squids saturday night spill out. These things happen. Still sad tho.

[alohagal]

Oh...behave ya'll...there is a certain learning curve when you first come to Scubaboard. The least of which is getting to know the cast of characters around these here parts. ;)

[scubafanatic]

....it's about time we invited 'Dr Kevorkian' to this thread......time for a 'mercy killing' and put this thread 'down' finally......anyone who has claimed any 'real' knowledge of what happened quit posting a long time ago......and we have no real idea even those 'informed' posters were genuine either...it was 'fun' initially but has long ago turned into a 'I'm a better/smarter diver than you are pissing match' hijack.

[alohagal]

....it's about time we invited 'Dr Kevorkian' to this thread......time for a 'mercy killing' and put this thread 'down' finally......anyone who has claimed any 'real' knowledge of what happened quit posting a long time ago......and we have no real idea even those 'informed' posters were genuine either...it was 'fun' initially but has long ago turned into a 'I'm a better/smarter diver than you are pissing match' hijack.

I couldn't, respectivefully, DISAGREE more!

[bsee65]

I couldn't, respectivefully, DISAGREE more!

I totally agree that the thread has been derailed. There may be more facts there for the curious, but we've covered the possible/reasonable scenarios and derived the lessons associated with the possibilities. What actually happened is, or at least should be, less important unless it represents a new scenario that we never considered. At least IMO.

-bob

[Thalassamania]

The story's not done. We're just hanging out waiting for more data.

[Michelle's Guy]

Sorry I posted.

[boulderjohn]

Sorry I posted.

And I'm sorry you feel that way.

You posted an earnestly-felt thought and said clearly it was speculation. IMO, you did everything right. I personally feel your speculation was a long shot, but, hey, there was no harm in raising the idea. Please don't let this deter you from future posts.

[bowlofpetunias]

Sorry I posted.


I too am sorry you feel that way. There are some people here who have posted very similar speculation. IMHO the reaction you got was based on frustrations that have developed in this thread that have nothing to do with you and the fact that it had been said before here. Not everyone has time to read all the posts on a long thread and not everyone reacted well to that speculation the first time it came up.

Don't let it deter you... this is a great link for you to read http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/278275-survival-kit-basic-divers-sb.html it will give you a different perspective I think.:blinking:

There is great information and great people here please don't be put off too quickly!

[cappyjon431]

I too am sorry you feel that way. There are some people here who have posted very similar speculation. IMHO the reaction you got was based on frustrations that have developed in this thread that have nothing to do with you and the fact that it had been said before here. Not everyone has time to read all the posts on a long thread and not everyone reacted well to that speculation the first time it came up.

Don't let it deter you... this is a great link for you to read http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/278275-survival-kit-basic-divers-sb.html it will give you a different perspective I think.:blinking:

There is great information and great people here please don't be put off too quickly!

Michelle's Guy, you should not apologize for posting speculation, because until we get all of the facts, your guess is just as good as all the other "experts." I believe that I was the first one to suggest suicide on this thread (maybe on page 6?), and I was told that my suggestion was total "speculation" and that we should not take the thread in that direction. I pointed out that at the time (before any facts were in) all we had was speculation. I also described an incident where I actually worked on a liveaboard with a diver who was planning to commit suicide on the boat. These things do happen, although we often don't want to talk about it.

[Thalassamania]

Michelle's Guy, you should not apologize for posting speculation, because until we get all of the facts, your guess is just as good as all the other "experts." I believe that I was the first one to suggest suicide on this thread (maybe on page 5?), and I was told that my suggestion was total "speculation" and that we should not take the thread in that direction. I pointed out that at the time (before any facts were in) all we had was speculation. I also described an incident where I actually worked on a liveaboard with a diver who was planning to commit suicide on the boat. These things do happen, although we often don't want to talk about it.Speculation that has not basis what-so-ever is rather a waste of everyone's time. Speculation that is based (however remotely) on critical thinking that is applied to even the smallest clue, is interesting and useful, at least to those with expertise.

[cappyjon431]

Speculation that has not basis what-so-ever is rather a waste of everyone's time. Speculation that is based (however remotely) on critical thinking that is applied to even the smallest clue, is interesting and useful, at least to those with expertise.

Agreed, but who is to say that a diver being narc'd, or an incompetent DM, or being unfamiliar with equipment (etc.) is more valid than attempted suicide? All of these speculations appeared very early in the thread, before any facts were in. They are all conjecture based on limited facts.

Divers do kill themselves. I know of one cave diving buddy who did and one liveaboard guest who attempted it. The fact (assuming it is so) that the victim might have tusseled with the DM opens the door to this hypothesis. The suggestion that she was in poor health and might have been depressed also add to the possibility.

[bleeb]

Agreed, but who is to say that a diver being narc'd, or an incompetent DM, or being unfamiliar with equipment (etc.) is more valid than attempted suicide? All of these speculations appeared very early in the thread, before any facts were in. They are all conjecture based on limited facts.

In this latest go-around, it's maybe not that the ideas mentioned are speculation. They're also ideas that tend to provoke strong emotions. But mostly, the very negative reaction is probably mostly because these ideas have all been extensively and loudly gone over in this thread multiple times already.

[Web Monkey]

Agreed, but who is to say that a diver being narc'd, or an incompetent DM, or being unfamiliar with equipment (etc.) is more valid than attempted suicide?

Divers get narced every day, the oceans are full of DMs I wouldn't trust to keep my lunch safe and divers that can't do a safe ascent even with an upline, while "suicide by SCUBA" is hardly even on the radar.

This doesn't mean that suicide is impossible, only that it's tremendously less likely than the other possibilities.

Terry

[cappyjon431]

Divers get narced every day, the oceans are full of DMs I wouldn't trust to keep my lunch safe and divers that can't do a safe ascent even with an upline, while "suicide by SCUBA" is hardly even on the radar.

This doesn't mean that suicide is impossible, only that it's tremendously less likely than the other possibilities.

Terry

My point is that all of these scenerios are conjecture and nothing more. It is easy to build a case for any of them, based on the very limited factual information that has been posted in this thread. The truth is that early in the thread there were several other posters who thought the same thing and discussed it off the board. If we are to thoroughly analyze all possible causes of a diving incident, why is this one taboo to discuss? Some arguments supporting the suicide hypothesis:
1. Victim is seen struggling with DM
2. Victim has history of health problems (stroke) which can lead to depression, frequently in the elderly.
3. Victim hires a DM. What better way to avoid the "no suicide" clause on most life insurance policies?
4. There are documented (admittedly rare) cases of suicide via diving. It is not without precedent.

In no way would I be so foolish as to claim that this is the definite cause of this incident. It is one of many possibilities, all of them relying on conjecture. I would argue that murder of a friend or spouse during diving is also very rare ("off the radar" if you will), but if investigators were to rule it out because of it initially being based on conjecture (or very rare), we would have a few more murderers out on the street.

[bowlofpetunias]

My point is that all of these scenerios are conjecture and nothing more. It is easy to build a case for any of them, based on the very limited factual information that has been posted in this thread. The truth is that early in the thread there were several other posters who thought the same thing and discussed it off the board. If we are to thoroughly analyze all possible causes of a diving incident, why is this one taboo to discuss? Some arguments supporting the suicide hypothesis:
1. Victim is seen struggling with DM
2. Victim has history of health problems (stroke) which can lead to depression, frequently in the elderly.
3. Victim hires a DM. What better way to avoid the "no suicide" clause on most life insurance policies?
4. There are documented (admittedly rare) cases of suicide via diving. It is not without precedent.

In no way would I be so foolish as to claim that this is the definite cause of this incident. It is one of many possibilities, all of them relying on conjecture. I would argue that murder of a friend or spouse during diving is also very rare ("off the radar" if you will), but if investigators were to rule it out because of it initially being based on conjecture (or very rare), we would have a few more murderers out on the street.

Why should it be any different here than in the general population? Suicide is a topic most people shy away from in most conversations. People don't know what to say, don't understand it and this allows a lot of misconceptions to continue. People in this state are in so much mental/emotional/physical pain they don't/can't think of the impact their action has on others... not just family but rescue providers, witnesses and so on.. it is a tragedy for so many people. Suicide is possibly the most selfish act a person can perform but when someone is in that state they can't see it! I am not going to hijack too far with this but if someone IS suicidal... they need help and if no one is willing to let the topic come up or be discussed.. it is hard for them to find that help. Just my .02

Sad indeed! I also know of a Scuba Suicide and have had a buddy tell me if they had a major health problem they would take a "one way Dive".

I agree... the "suicide speculation" is as valid as any other here. Some of us are not just trying to figure out why THIS event happened but to learn from every aspect and tangent the topic takes us on! This forum and thread is about learning and I appreciate that I can learn from every single post!

[Thalassamania]

What is not conjecture is that a Instructor was hired to serve as a dive buddy for an elderly woman and surfaced without her buddy. It really does not matter what the other details are, they are merely interesting sidelights. I am amazed, however, at how many rather bizarre conjectures people are willing to swallow rather than facing the obvious conclusion in the face, the Instructor screwed the pooch.

[jaxjags64109]

What is not conjecture is that a Instructor was hired to serve as a dive buddy for an elderly woman and surfaced without her buddy. It really does not matter what the other details are, they are merely interesting sidelights. I am amazed, however, at how many rather bizarre conjectures people are willing to swallow rather than facing the obvious conclusion in the face, the Instructor screwed the pooch.

So in other words, we may all post our own speculations but only if, and as long as, we first agree with your opinion that "the DM screwed the Pooch?" It appears the rules of the game are finally clear.

[InTheDrink]

What is not conjecture is that a Instructor was hired to serve as a dive buddy for an elderly woman and surfaced without her buddy. It really does not matter what the other details are, they are merely interesting sidelights. I am amazed, however, at how many rather bizarre conjectures people are willing to swallow rather than facing the obvious conclusion in the face, the Instructor screwed the pooch.

Sorry Thal, wasn't going to post, but you need to be called on this. You need to drop your macho crap. You don't really seem open to anyone's opinion other than your own. That's a bit sad. You are using adjectives to suit your argument. You are positioning it to suit yourself.

The instructor may have screwed up. Maybe. Held against your notional standards. She equally may not have screwed up at all, against yours or anyone elses standards. To make the black/white assumption that any instructor that doesn't surface with their charge is incompetent is both foolish and insensitive. The other parts are not just 'interesing sidelights' whatever they may be. The detail is the story, not the general points. Grey is where life exists, not in the broad black and white strokes some people wish they were.

I know before I hit 'post' what your response is going to be but why don't you take some time out and try to understand that not everyone is perfect like you?

In all respect.

J

[Thalassamania]

Sorry J, nothing "macho" about it at all. Even if her incompetence was "nothing more" than taking an assignment that she did not know she wasn't up to, that's still incompetence. Maybe that lack of insight into her own personal preparedness was her only offense, maybe she had gotten away with it a thousand times before and grown complacent, it still cost a life, it was still unacceptable.

[Web Monkey]

To make the black/white assumption that any instructor that doesn't surface with their charge is incompetent is both foolish and insensitive.

I dive with students and inexperienced divers quite often and can tell you with great certainty that "buddy distance" is the same or less than "grabbing distance", and if your buddy (especially one that hired you) is blowing the dive plan, it's time for a little quick underwater communication, followed by an ascent if necessary.

This might be insensitive, but it's definitely not foolish.

Terry

[bsee65]

I agree with Thal, and think some of you aren't getting the point. There are clearly multiple factors in this accident and multiple questions to be answered. Did the victim descend intentionally? Did she do it intending harm to herself? Was she narced? Did she have a stroke-related incident? Was she having bouyancy problems? Was she just ornery? Was she incapable? Speculate all you want on these possibilities as they factor into the accident.

However, whatever answers or ideas you come up with to explain the reason for the victim's descent and lack of cooperation, the DM was at fault for failing to bring the victim to the surface. Some may believe that a victim putting up some amount of fight excuses the DM's inability to make a rescue. We don't have any real information about what prevented the DM from controlling the situation beyond comments that the victim was pushing her away. In any case, I think it is not unreasonable to hold the DM responsible while speculating on other aspects of the accident.

[stadevene]

I would think it reasonable to expect a rescue diver, DM, or instructor should be able to handle bringing someone to surface in nearly every instance. What we don't know is if this is one of those exception to the rule cases. Without the benefit of all of the eyewitness accounts and all of the investigator notes is it really fair to lay blame? I can see making the assumption however is this the correct line of thinking as an investigator?

I guess I'll defer to Thal and others who have experience in dive investigations but I have a couple of questions for the experts. Am I correct that investigators - while I'm sure it's tough - must try and eliminate their personal biases from a given situation? And for Thal, out of all the thousands of investigations you've done do you recall a time when your initial thought or supposition turned out to be incorrect? Or to put another way was there a case where, at the end of the investigation, you said something to the affect of "I never thought that was possible"?

[Thalassamania]

And for Thal, out of all the thousands of investigations you've done do you recall a time when your initial thought or supposition turned out to be incorrect? Or to put another way was there a case where, at the end of the investigation, you said something to the affect of "I never thought that was possible"?Yes, fairly often throughout an investigation we'd change our minds, each piece of data would either support what we had summized or would lead to a different supposition. That's the case here too. But that really involves, as far as I can tell, the details, rather than the crucial issue.

[scubafanatic]

I couldn't, respectivefully, DISAGREE more!

...and yet, just think, despite everything you think you've learned from this thread....YOU were done in by 'killer flip-flops' in Cozumel just the other day! :)

[jaxjags64109]

I agree with Thal, and think some of you aren't getting the point. There are clearly multiple factors in this accident and multiple questions to be answered. Did the victim descend intentionally? Did she do it intending harm to herself? Was she narced? Did she have a stroke-related incident? Was she having bouyancy problems? Was she just ornery? Was she incapable? Speculate all you want on these possibilities as they factor into the accident.

However, whatever answers or ideas you come up with to explain the reason for the victim's descent and lack of cooperation, the DM was at fault for failing to bring the victim to the surface. Some may believe that a victim putting up some amount of fight excuses the DM's inability to make a rescue. We don't have any real information about what prevented the DM from controlling the situation beyond comments that the victim was pushing her away. In any case, I think it is not unreasonable to hold the DM responsible while speculating on other aspects of the accident.

...however, anyone posting anything other than complete agreement is subject to ridicule. That makes no sense to spend time on a forum where the intent is to demean anyones suggestion(s) that differs from your own. I personally want to read others ideas...I thought that was the purpose of this forum to share thoughts, ideas, knowledge, and ask questions... am I wrong?

I hope this thread continues long enough for us to get some more details (facts) about what happened. Until then, I've really appreaciated the thought provoking comments of others who make me think about diving from another's perspective. I believe I will be a better diver as a result of other's ideas even though I might not always agree. Thal has made his point and opinion known and I respect his insight, but I want to hear from others as well, and I believe he is demeaning others who offer other thoughts/opinions, and that demeaning approach may prevent someone from posting something that might help me as a fellow diver.

Thal...you can be right and still let others explore and exchange other thoughts and ideas. Allowing others to share freely does not diminish your authority in this area...may even reinforce what your experience brings to these worthwhile discussions.

Just my opinion.

[boulderjohn]

Am I correct that investigators - while I'm sure it's tough - must try and eliminate their personal biases from a given situation? And for Thal, out of all the thousands of investigations you've done do you recall a time when your initial thought or supposition turned out to be incorrect?

Any competent investigator or researcher is trained to do everything possible to avoid initial thoughts or suppositions. Unfortunately, high school English teachers too often teach students to "come up with a thesis and then look for evidence to support it." That leads the general population to assume (falsely) that this is the proper way to conduct research. That kind of thinking is extremely dangerous, because a researcher starting with that mindset will overlook contradictory evidence, overemphasize supporting evidence, and twist other evidence to support the initial theory. A proper investigative frame of mind starts with a neutrally worded investigative question, not a thesis or theory. A skilled investigator looks at all research objectively until conclusions begin to emerge.

As a curriculum Director, I once reviewed a course in forensic science written by someone who actually did the kind of work shown on the highly popular CSI shows. The writer talked about the absurdity of those shows, pointing out in particular how they always form theories immediately and then set out to prove those theories true. (Particulary CSI Miami, a show which tries to make sure that they stay as far from reality as possible.)

[cappyjon431]

Any competent investigator or researcher is trained to do everything possible to avoid initial thoughts or suppositions. Unfortunately, high school English teachers too often teach students to "come up with a thesis and then look for evidence to support it." That leads the general population to assume (falsely) that this is the proper way to conduct research. That kind of thinking is extremely dangerous, because a researcher starting with that mindset will overlook contradictory evidence, overemphasize supporting evidence, and twist other evidence to support the initial theory. A proper investigative frame of mind starts with a neutrally worded investigative question, not a thesis or theory. A skilled investigator looks at all research objectively until conclusions begin to emerge.

As a curriculum Director, I once reviewed a course in forensic science written by someone who actually did the kind of work shown on the highly popular CSI shows. The writer talked about the absurdity of those shows, pointing out in particular how they always form theories immediately and then set out to prove those theories true. (Particulary CSI Miami, a show which tries to make sure that they stay as far from reality as possible.)

John, I agree with 99% of your argument, but as a former college English lecturer, I have to disagree with your comments on the idea of "coming up with a thesis and then supporting it" as leading to dangerous thinking. That is a rhetorical technique for writing persuasive arguments and a tool for teaching students to be able to back up their claims with evidence. Too many students make nefarious claims and have NO IDEA how to support their arguments. Many students come out of high school with no critical thinking ability, and being able to support a claim with logic and/or evidence is an important skill that needs to be developed. The problem is that this is just one type of research, and should not be confused with accident analysis, forensic research, or other investigative sciences.

As you point out, the role of an investigator should include coming in with a blank slate and let the evidence dictate the direction of the investigation. This is a different type of research, but neither one leads to "extremely dangerous thinking." The problem occurs when people use the wrong research methods for the wrong intended purpose.

Hopefully this has not hijacked the thread too far from the issues.

[Thalassamania]

...however, anyone posting anything other than complete agreement is subject to ridicule. That makes no sense to spend time on a forum where the intent is to demean anyones suggestion(s) that differs from your own. I personally want to read others ideas...I thought that was the purpose of this forum to share thoughts, ideas, knowledge, and ask questions... am I wrong?The purpose of this forum is to share thoughts, ideas, knowledge, and ask questions. Further it is to critically examine those thoughts and ideas. Those that do not stand up to scrutiny are rejected as ridiculous (if that's what you mean by ridicule). There is not intent (at least on my part) to "demean anyone's suggestion(s) that differs" from my own, I love it when I can gain additional insight from someone else who has seen something that I missed. I think most of us here are that way, but unexamined thoughts and ideas and answers to question that are not tested by debate are worse than useless.

I hope this thread continues long enough for us to get some more details (facts) about what happened. Until then, I've really appreaciated the thought provoking comments of others who make me think about diving from another's perspective. I believe I will be a better diver as a result of other's ideas even though I might not always agree. Thal has made his point and opinion known and I respect his insight, but I want to hear from others as well, and I believe he is demeaning others who offer other thoughts/opinions, and that demeaning approach may prevent someone from posting something that might help me as a fellow diver.

Thal...you can be right and still let others explore and exchange other thoughts and ideas. Allowing others to share freely does not diminish your authority in this area...may even reinforce what your experience brings to these worthwhile discussions.

Just my opinion.Everyone is welcome to explore ideas and exchange thoughts, I have no power (or desire) to censor anything. But I have the right (possibly even the duty), just all members of the forum do, to express my views and critique others views as rigorously as possible. But this is not grade school where everyone gets an "A" just for trying, because that's the nice thing to do and it also isn't some other boards where name calling and character assassination are the order of the day. When you think that I'm right, say so. When you think I'm wrong, please, go for it ... that's what it's all about. But please don't whine that little ole Thal somehow prevents you from doing so, that's a copout.

[boulderjohn]

John, I agree with 99% of your argument, but as a former college English lecturer, I have to disagree with your comments on the idea of "coming up with a thesis and then supporting it" as leading to dangerous thinking. That is a rhetorical technique for writing persuasive arguments and a tool for teaching students to be able to back up their claims with evidence. Too many students make nefarious claims and have NO IDEA how to support their arguments. Many students come out of high school with no critical thinking ability, and being able to support a claim with logic and/or evidence is an important skill that needs to be developed.

I almost did not respond because of the hijack, but I think I can get this on topic.

For the first decade of my life as an English teacher, I would have agreed with you. I then grew tired of fuzzy logic and weak arguments presented in proper rhetorical technique. When I realized I was doing everything backwards and focused instead on teaching thinking, observing, and drawing conclusions instead of rhetorical technique, I was stunned by the soaring improvement in my students. This led eventually to the part of my career when I was teaching teachers how to teach.

During those years, teachers responded much as you did. I therefore have a ready arsenal of many hours of responses should you be interested in pursuing this.

You are right that the typical student has no idea how to form an effective argument. That is because they have been taught to use rhetorical technique in lieu of thought. Try teaching them instead to examine the facts with an objective eye and you will be shocked by the results. When students really understand why they believe something, they have no trouble making an effective argument. When they have instead plucked an opinion out of the air, it all comes down to rhetorical technique.

For the purposes of this thread, it is all the same. We need to draw conclusions based on the facts before us, not preconceived opinions.

[boulderjohn]

This may seem at first to contradict what I said earlier, but I do not believe it does.

Let me start with a typical far-flung analogy.

Many years ago a 13 year old chess player named Bobby Fischer played what many have called the Game of the Century. In the middle of the game, with everything seeming to be in total balance, Fischer's queen was attacked by a bishop, if I recall correctly. (It's been a while.) The purpose of the attack was to make Fischer remove his queen to a less threatening position. Shockingly, Fischer allowed the queen, the most powerful piece of all, to be taken, seemingly in exchange for a mere bishop. At that level of play, such a move is unthinkable and, well, suicidal.

But Fischer won, and analysis shows that once the queen was taken, he could not have lost--there was nothing his opponent could have done to stave off defeat with the resulting position of the pieces.

For me, the brilliance of the move lies not so much in the act itself but in the fact that Fischer even considered it. Mere mortals such as I would never take a moment to ask, "Hmm, what if I let him take the queen?" We are so bound by convention that we dare not consider something so unconventional.

That goes back to what I said earlier about having one's mind tainted by preconceived suppositions while doing research or examining evidence. When you go into it with a preconceived notion, you examine what you see in comparison to that notion. You must instead look at the situation, see what is there, and consider all the possibilities--even the possibility that sacrificing a queen may be beneficial, or that a seeming diving accident might instead be a suicide.

[ItsBruce]

To elaborate on John's post, let me reference a scene from the movie “The Sentinel” (20th Century Fox, 2006). I have used this scene as a demonstration of what is sometimes called "tunnel vision" or "confirmation bias."

In the movie, a homicide detective tells Secret Service agent David Breckinridge, played by Kiefer Sutherland, that he believes the killing of another Secret Service agent occurred in the course of an ordinary armed robbery. Breckinridge looks at the scene and asks the detective if he really thinks it was just a street crime. The detective answers: “In my gut, yeah.” Breckinridge responds: “You know my problem with gut feelings? Once you have them, the only evidence you see is the evidence that reinforces your gut feeling. Human nature.” Breckinridge then explains why the objective fact refute the detective’s “gut feeling.” Breckinridge points out several things, including that even though the deceased agent’s wallet was out and empty and his gun was in his hand, the safety was still in the “on” position. Breckinridge then has another Secret Service agent explain that unlike police officers, Secret Service agents are trained to release the safety while drawing their guns. The fact that the safety was still “on” meant the deceased agent had not drawn his gun and that it had been put in his hand after he had been killed, to make it look like a street crime.

This phenomenon is quite common and often results in unsound conclusions.

And, until we get more information about all we can do here is "hang out" and discuss cool stuff.

[sinduda]

Whew...I was hijacked by this thread and read through the whole thing today...well, read lots and perused others. I found this thread to be an amazing instructor on what to do and more importantly, what not to do. It also made me realize how complacent I can get and how wrong that is. I dive in the Galapagos where the currents are always strong and what I must admit does scare me are what they call the 'azules'. Local fisherman will tell you that if you are caught in one of these down currents, in the western islands around Isabela, you do not get out of it. We dive in 7mm wetsuits and for me, that means a lot of weight or my arms are exhausted from keeping myself down at a safety stop. Maybe having some in the pockets makes more sense than all of it around the belt in the event I ever do need to shed some. But I've had no problems yet. Complacency. Down currents are not unusual out here and a distraction of watching hammerheads or taking a photo and you can drop 10 meters quickly. Complacency... I'm accustomed to a dive buddy being at a distance. Complacency....

On the medical check-up, I will say that due to 2 divers dying of heart attacks in the Galapagos just this year, I did end up at a cardiologist for the first time ever to have an EKG, eccogram, etc. It's nice knowing what good shape your heart is in instead of knowing that you should get it checked out. No complacency there due to others' accidents. It's a shame that it can take a tragedy, but better they serve that purpose and perhaps save other lives than simply go unnoticed except by those who loved them. This has been a very good thread. Even if no more light has been shed on Mrs. Woods tragedy, I have a feeling she has helped many. Reminds of of the "If I should die diving" Sticky posted somewhere on these boards.

[kimkc1971]

It may not be a factor--I'm just trying to determine what standard practices private DiveMasters should adhere to. I've never seen in-water DiveMasters holding tanks or hands. That could be due to locale (which based on your post, it doesn't seem to be), due to lack of experience of DiveMasters at higher-risk sites (my only experience watching in-water DiveMasters has been at relatively benign locations), or any number of other reasons. Since I don't know how often DiveMasters should hold tank/hands, I'm trying to understand it better. I could ask my DM course instructor when we meet later this week, but ScubaBoard has spoiled me with instant gratification. :)

We hired a private DM for our son on his first OW dives in Cozumel. He was 12 and it was required by the dive op. The DM stayed right next to him at all times and even held on to him on occasion where the current was swift. He of course wanted more independence, but she wouldn't let him leave her side. This may be in part to the fact that he was a child, but regardless of a divers age, if the decision is made that a diver requires a private DM, the diver's ability to handle various situations especially over deep depths shouldn't be assumed...

[onlyhalcyon]

I have been reading most of the on this tread and its very interesting to read what everyone has to say.

I spoke with the dive investigators the other day and they will get back to me in a couple of weeks, so they say.

I was the only diver who saw what i thought was 100% of what happened that day but as I am told was only 70%.

My wife and I spoke with one of the DM proir to diving that day and mentioned that my wife was having trouble with her ears and if we didn't decend with teh group not to worry. After entering the water it turned out that my wife could only go down to around 15ft so we watched the other diver decend and swam in their bubbles for the first 5mins of the dive. I quickly tired of this and notioned my wife to move to the left of the bubbles which was moving us over the wall (the wall being on our right at this point). My wife wasn't very comfortable with this but I didn't feel like spending the dive looking at bubbles.

A few mins after at about 8mins into the dive my wife decended to around 40ft and I followed we followed the group who were now infront and were gradualy decending.

It was probably around 15mins into the dive at around 60 ft that I fist noticed 3 divers sitting on the wall at around 90ft which i now know to be an 2 divers completing their advanced deep dive with a DM. Shortly after that I saw to divers below me at around 80ft. At this point I was at around 65ft and my wife was slightly above at around 57ft I noticed that something seemed not quite right since I could see that the lead diver was wearing Stuart Cove rental equipment and the diver following was not. I could also see from the way the first diver was moving through the water that they were not as experienced as the second diver who was following and given the depth it seemed kind of strange. I watched the both of them swim under me and start to move ahead all the while decending slowly, by the time they were ahead of me they were at around 100 ft. The viz that day was very good and was around 60ft. I continued to watch the 2 divers while keeping an eye on my wife who still seemed to be having trouble with her ears and the whole dive in general. I signed to my wife that there was something happening below us and to slow down and wait. Iwatched as the second diver whom I now know to be the DM try to get the attention of the first diver only to be pushed away. I then dropped to around 90ft to see what was going on. I could see the first diver (Mrs Wood) continue to swim down to what must have been around 110ft and seemed to have no intention of stopping, I looked on wondering what was happening and wondering what I was missing had they seen hammerhead sharks? I dropped lower to see if I could see what they had seen we were told pre dive that hammerhead sharks had been seen in the area so I didn't want to miss out if a diver had seen them. As I said it all seemed a little strange since the diver going so deep was in rental equipment so I dropped down to almost 100ft leaving my wife at around 60ft. I looked up and my wife was signaling me to come up and catch up with the group who were now quite a way ahead of us. I told her to stay where she was as there was something going on which didn't seem right to me. I could see the DM now hitting her tank with some thing and could see the second diver hitting their tank and could hear the constant signaling noise the 2 divers were at around 130 when I lost sight of them. Iswam up to meet my wife and sigaled that there was something very wrong with the 2 divers below, my wife signed to catch up with the others and to stop worrying, I could see in her eyes that she was pissed off so I leveled off at around 80ft and moved on all the while looking back. At this point the DM came up from below and swam up to me and signed, my buddy is gone and kept repeating the sign, my buddy is gone. I didn't know at the time that she was a DM but I could see from her eyes that something was very wrong. I later found out that she was the DM and her buddy was Mrs Wood. I quickly swam to my wife and passed on the sign, buddy missing, my wife kind of blew me off so I swam quickly to the group and came up on the lasr diver and passed on the sign. It turned out that this diver was not a DM and didn't really understand what I was trying to say. I looked back and notioned my wife to swim with me back to the boat. We caught upto the group who were just under the boat at this point around 31mins into the dive I located the lead DM and signaled that there was a major problem and a diver was missing I counted the divers becuse I remember on the boat they said that there were 15. The lead DM saw me counting and swam over to calm me down, I kept signing to him that we were a diver missing, all the while he continued to tell me it was not a problem. At this point I signed to my wife to surface asap and I swam to the anchor line and started my safety stop and notioned my wife to do the same. After completing the safety stop I was the second diver onto the boat. I dropped my bottle and ran upto the captain and told hime of the problem we had below, he said not to worry it was probably a group doing some thing and not to worry. About 5 mins after I surfaced the DM came up and I told him what I had seen, he tried to calm me down and tell me that I was over reacting, I hadonly seen the 3 deep divers and not to worry about it. It was only when the DM who was with Mrs Wood came up that things changed very quickly. The DM came out of the water and was very upset on the verge of crying. The DM on the boat tried talking with her but she wasn't able to speak at all. The DM told her to go to the front of the boat and came running over to me to ask what had happened. I told him what I had seen and where it had happened, the 3rd DM surfaced and the passed on the info. The DM's swithed there NITROX bottles for regular bottles and jumped back into the water. After around 15mins the 4th DM who was taking the deep water advanced group surfaced and told me that he went down to 140ft to try and stop Mrs Wood. I will post the rest later since its kind of late

[mikerault]

Boy...leave us hanging here at 140 feet...

[ScubaSteve]

Boy...leave us hanging here at 140 feet...


Yeah but their THANKS to POSTS ratio beats the heck out of even Lynne :D.

[boulderjohn]

There is enough good new information here to help understnad things better. As I understand the post, there was no fight--it was more of a flight. The professionals were all using nitrox, which probably raised fears of toxicity during the pursuit.

I don't want to add more than this until more is posted.

[ItsBruce]

There is enough good new information here to help understnad things better. As I understand the post, there was no fight--it was more of a flight. The professionals were all using nitrox, which probably raised fears of toxicity during the pursuit.

I don't want to add more than this until more is posted.

Wow!!! Thanks for the update and new information.

So much for all the posts about fighting underwater and about who would win, etc.

[cappyjon431]

In his latest post, Onlyhalcyon did say that the DM was "pushed away" by the diver at approximately 100', but this certainly doesn't constitute the struggle between DM and diver that I envisioned earlier.

Still unclear to me whether Mrs. Wood's paid DM/buddy was on air or nitrox. I'm trying to understand if having nitrox was partly responsible for the DM's reluctance to chase to a deeper depth.

[ScubaSteve]

In his latest post, Onlyhalcyon did say that the DM was "pushed away" by the diver at approximately 100', but this certainly doesn't constitute the struggle between DM and diver that I envisioned earlier.

I agree that my imagination had filled in the missing information with a James Bond style underwater battle to the death. This seems not only more fitting to an aged woman, but also like there was likely (this coming from a simple diver) a lot more effort thatcould have been put forward to raise the diver. Still having not seen the incident, my brain is left to fill in blanks but it certainly seems as though people were a lot more passive than I had originally thought.

Still unclear to me whether Mrs. Wood's paid DM/buddy was on air or nitrox. I'm trying to understand if having nitrox was partly responsible for the DM's reluctance to chase to a deeper depth.

Even if she was on Nitrox and that was why she surfaced, why would it fall onto the passenger (maybe I misunderstood this part) to explain the situation from a third hand perspective to get somebody to don gear try and save the diver? I am sorry but if you get so emotional that you cannot tell someone that you lost a diver, where and when, then being a DM is not for you. Please tell me this person will never become an instructor. That is like accepting that a fireman could not aim the fire hose because they were too emotional. Unacceptable. IMO, the "after water entry" failure falls squarely onto the shoulders of the entire DM/Crew and the Operator.

[cappyjon431]

Even if she was on Nitrox and that was why she surfaced, why would it fall onto the passenger (maybe I misunderstood this part) to explain the situation from a third hand perspective to get somebody to don gear try and save the diver? I am sorry but if you get so emotional that you cannot tell someone that you lost a diver, where and when, then being a DM is not for you. Please tell me this person will never become an instructor. That is like accepting that a fireman could not aim the fire hose because they were too emotional. Unacceptable. IMO, the "after water entry" failure falls squarely onto the shoulders of the entire DM/Crew and the Operator.

Perhaps I misread Onlyhalcyon's last post, but I understood it to say that he was the second one to surface and that when he tried to tell the boat crew of his concerns he was essentially ignored. The post says that it was not until Mrs. Wood's Rent-a-DM surfaced that anybody took any action.

[Dwag766]

How intense that must have been! We will all be waiting for the rest of the story.

[ScubaSteve]

Perhaps I misread Onlyhalcyon's last post, but I understood it to say that he was the second one to surface and that when he tried to tell the boat crew of his concerns he was essentially ignored. The post says that it was not until Mrs. Wood's Rent-a-DM surfaced that anybody took any action.

From onlyhalcyon's last post

.........The DM told her to go to the front of the boat and came running over to me to ask what had happened. I told him what I had seen and where it had happened........

(and yes that happened after they were essentially ignored by the crew) Following that, then another DM surfaced and they then went down after switching tanks. But it took onlyhalcyon to explain the situation. Very sad indeed.

[scubafanatic]

Boy...leave us hanging here at 140 feet...

.....I think we're at the moment where the announcer says: "....and now for a brief commercial break from our sponsors...." :D

[InTheDrink]

.....I think we're at the moment where the announcer says: "....and now for a brief commercial break from our sponsors...." :D

I'm not sure it's appropriate to trivialise this at this moment in time, not meaning to be harsh.

OnlyHalcyon may have some very useful information to deliver. I wouldn't view it as a popcorn moment, which is how yout comment came across to me.

Like I said, not meaning to be harsh, just I want to make sure we get as full facts as possible.

Thanks,
John

[stadevene]

There are some new info in the latest account I'm wondering about. First, an answer to one of the questions.

Relationship between DM and victim
I later found out that she was the DM and her buddy was Mrs Wood.

Things I'm wondering about:

I quickly swam to my wife and passed on the sign, buddy missing, my wife kind of blew me off so ... I located the lead DM and signaled that there was a major problem and a diver was missing I counted the divers becuse I remember on the boat they said that there were 15. The lead DM saw me counting and swam over to calm me down, I kept signing to him that we were a diver missing, all the while he continued to tell me it was not a problem.


After completing the safety stop I was the second diver onto the boat. I dropped my bottle and ran upto the captain and told hime of the problem we had below, he said not to worry it was probably a group doing some thing and not to worry.


About 5 mins after I surfaced the DM came up and I told him what I had seen, he tried to calm me down and tell me that I was over reacting, I had only seen the 3 deep divers and not to worry about it.

For those who are instructor/DM level and any captains here what is the standard protocol when a diver gives you a diver missing signal or comes up saying there is a missing diver? I can see this would be really tough to determine as there sounds like with 4 DMs in the water there were almost 4 distinct groups and the diver flashing you the signals may have just missed a dive group.

A further question is there any protocol if you were in the DM's position and had your diver go missing or as it sounds just diving down without paying attention to your repeated calls? Should you try and get the attention of your fellow DMs to help you out?

I'm also wondering if there should be some "universal" distress signal dive leaders should give or even just some sort of alert mechanism dive operators should work out with their DMs? I'm thinking of something like equipping all your DMs with air horns and if there is an issue to do 3 fast blasts or morse SOS. Any of the pros in the room ever have anything like this setup?

It was only when the DM who was with Mrs Wood came up that things changed very quickly. The DM came out of the water and was very upset on the verge of crying. The DM on the boat tried talking with her but she wasn't able to speak at all.

ScubaSteve mentions the DM should have been able to communicate. There are many cases of people who are in shock who can't communicate. Without benefit of other information, based on the description, it sounds like the DM could have been in shock.

The DM's switched there NITROX bottles for regular bottles and jumped back into the water. After around 15mins the 4th DM who was taking the deep water advanced group surfaced and told me that he went down to 140ft to try and stop Mrs Wood.

It sounds like more than one DM attempted to save her. Whether the 4th DM was at 140 and she was far below him or the 4th DM had her at arms length we don't know.

One of the takeaways for me is the importance of a slate for communicating. I am wondering if there was something on hand where halcyon could have written something like "DM is missing diver, needs help!" or "DM in trouble, diver is below 140ft, needs help!") if the other DMs would have taken him seriously. I should likely add I think halcyon did everything possible and at his disposal to alert the DMs.

[hydropunk]

I have a feeling the 'speculation police' will want my head after posting this, but I agree with the possibility of suicide. She fought off the DM at 100 ft... That's how I would do myself in, if I had to. I've heard of many suicidal divers do the same thing. You don't forget what air does to a human beyond 110ft if you've ever been narced. That said, maybe she was just trying to get narced but not commit suicide, and simply went waaaaay too deep, ran out of air, and drowned.

[Thalassamania]

The only "evidence" for suicide (so far) is onlyhalcyon's interpretation of what he saw as the deceased pushing the DM away at about 100 feet. The problem with this sort of speculation is it encourages the DM (in the absence of witnesses) to invent a tale of how she struggled with the victim who was hell bent on self destruction. Even if it were true, at this point, without serious collaboration, I'd be hard pressed to believe it. Those who are using this explanation to try and excuse the DM loosing the victim have actually done the DM a grave misservice.

[cappyjon431]

While I have suggested the suicide hypothesis from very early in this thread (page 6), I want to emphasize that suicide is only one of many possibilities ( narcosis, a mini-stroke, etc. come to mind). I think that there is a strong possibility we will never know what happened (the cause of the behavior). Just as I believe it would be foolish to argue that suicide was "the" cause of this incident, it would be equally foolish to rule it out. The only "eyewitness" to this incident saw a brief struggle (a push) and then the victim swimming rapidly downward--what caused this is still vey much an unknown variable.

Thal, I don't think this hypothesis is being used as excuse for the DMs unsuccesful rescue attempt (nor should it be). As you have so forcefully argued, a properly trained DM should be able to bring his/her charge to the surface, regardless of the cause of the aberrant behavior (afterall, we are talking about a somewhat elderly woman).

[hydropunk]

Yes, the DM should have been able to haul mrs woods' butt topside... but as I said, I agree with the possibility of suicide. I'm not declaring she offed herself, just agreeing with that possibility.

The thing that really sucks about this incident is the lack of information.

;p

[bsee65]

While I have suggested the suicide hypothesis from very early in this thread (page 6), I want to emphasize that suicide is only one of many possibilities ( narcosis, a mini-stroke, etc. come to mind). I think that there is a strong possibility we will never know what happened (the cause of the behavior). Just as I believe it would be foolish to argue that suicide was "the" cause of this incident, it would be equally foolish to rule it out. The only "eyewitness" to this incident saw a brief struggle (a push) and then the victim swimming rapidly downward--what caused this is still vey much an unknown variable.

Thal, I don't think this hypothesis is being used as excuse for the DMs unsuccesful rescue attempt (nor should it be). As you have so forcefully argued, a properly trained DM should be able to bring his/her charge to the surface, regardless of the cause of the aberrant behavior (afterall, we are talking about a somewhat elderly woman).

You say the eyewitness saw the victim "swimming rapidly downward", but I don't remember that from the account. onlyhalcyon said that he saw something going on while he was at 65'. That he followed the action, descending himself to 90-95'. During that time, he estimated that the DM and victim descended at no greater rate than he did. He also had time to exchange signals with his wife during this period. It sounds like Mrs. Wood was descending, but it didn't sound particularly quick from that description. I also didn't see anything there about holding on or fighting for control of Mrs. Wood's bouyancy.

From my read of onlyhalcyon's account, it sounds like the rent-a-buddy DM had every opportunity to make a rescue and instead chose to try communicating with the victim to convince her to come back up. Sounds like a bad decision, especially when you consider the results. If signals start at 80' and a push occurs at 100', then the next step better be a forced ascent rescue, especially if you have set a hard floor of 140' for yourself. By the time you're at 120', you no longer have time for niceties. Save the diver, or watch her descend into the blue.

As far as further information goes, everything else we hear from onlyhalcyon will be second hand. He reached the point in his narrative where he lost sight of the victim so, unless he left anything out, the only other things he'll be able to talk about are search tactics and information learned from others.

[stadevene]

You say the eyewitness saw the victim "swimming rapidly downward", but I don't remember that from the account.

I could see the first diver (Mrs Wood) continue to swim down to what must have been around 110ft and seemed to have no intention of stopping

I'm not sure "rapidly" would be an accurate description, however based on the account it doesn't sound like she was leisurely finning either.

[bowlofpetunias]

Interesting interpretations of onlyhalcyon's posts. Interesting seeing how some people pull out bits that support their "pet theories". I may as well join the club.

I believe a chain of events led to the final outcome. While each event of itself did not cause this unfortunate death the result of breaking the chain at any point could easily have prevented the incident.

Once again I will state that I do not feel qualified to judge the performance of the DM in failing to bring the diver to the surface. I leave that to those with DM or higher qualifications.

I will clearly state what my "Pet theory" is. COMMUNICATION BREAKDOWN! That breakdown may have started with the Doctor failing to make it clear to the Woods what activity level Mrs Woods was capable of. The Woods failed to communicate Mrs Wood's medical risks to the Dive Op and/or the Dive OP failed to recognize it's significance. Communication failed between Mrs Wood and the DM. The DM got the message across to onlyhalcyon probably because he saw what had occurred. The DM's and Dive Crew failed to listen to onlyhalcyon which delayed the rescue.

I am assuming the reason the DM assigned to Mrs Wood surfaced last is because she was still looking for Mrs Wood. I can't be sure of that of course it would require the DM's statement (if she was believed) to clarify that point!

I don't think we can rule out another stroke, Narcosis, Suicide or overconfidence and unwillingness to listen to a younger DM as contributing factors in this event. Certainly IMHO the Dive Operator and every crew member who did not take onlyhalcyon's attempts to get help share some responsibility!

[bsee65]

Interesting interpretations of onlyhalcyon's posts. Interesting seeing how some people pull out bits that support their "pet theories". I may as well join the club.
...

I am assuming the reason the DM assigned to Mrs Wood surfaced last is because she was still looking for Mrs Wood. I can't be sure of that of course it would require the DM's statement (if she was believed) to clarify that point!

I don't think we can rule out another stroke, Narcosis, Suicide or overconfidence and unwillingness to listen to a younger DM as contributing factors in this event. Certainly IMHO the Dive Operator and every crew member who did not take onlyhalcyon's attempts to get help share some responsibility!

Once Mrs. Wood had "escaped" her rent-a-buddy DM, I believe the incident was pretty much over. I don't believe that anyone without a submarine would have had much chance to get to her after that. The crew who failed to respond were in the wrong, but they didn't contribute in any way to Mrs. Wood's demise.

[cappyjon431]

I'm not sure "rapidly" would be an accurate description, however based on the account it doesn't sound like she was leisurely finning either.
You are correct, it did not say rapidly, just that she was swimming downward with no intention of stopping.

[ItsBruce]

I respectfully disagree with your theory.

... I will clearly state what my "Pet theory" is. COMMUNICATION BREAKDOWN! That breakdown may have started with the Doctor failing to make it clear to the Woods what activity level Mrs Woods was capable of.

There is no evidence that Mrs. Woods was not capable of diving as a result of any prior stroke. Nor is there actual evidence that the prior stroke was actually a contributing factor to the incident.

There is no evidence what Mrs. Woods' doctor did or did not tell her. Perhaps the doctor told Mrs. Woods not to dive and was quite clear and perhaps Mrs. Woods chose to disregard the doctor's admonition. Perhaps not. In either case, what the doctor did or didn't tell Mrs. Woods cannot be a part of any theory.


... The Woods failed to communicate Mrs Wood's medical risks to the Dive Op and/or the Dive OP failed to recognize it's significance.

Again, we do not know that there were any medical risks. Nor do we have evidence these were a factor in the incident.

If the Woods did let the dive op know Mrs. Woods had had a stroke, I am surprised the dive op let her dive at all. I've seen too many dive ops refuse to let divers dive for much lesser maladies.

... Communication failed between Mrs Wood and the DM.

Again, there is no evidence of a communication failure. For all anyone can tell, Mrs. Woods got the DM's message quite clearly and then disregarded it.

... The DM got the message across to onlyhalcyon probably because he saw what had occurred. The DM's and Dive Crew failed to listen to onlyhalcyon which delayed the rescue.

That the DMs and Dive Crew failed to listen to onlyhalcyon is an understatement. However, my impression is that by the time onlyhalcyon got to the other DMs and/or Dive Crew, it was way too late to perform any sort of a rescue or recovery.

... I am assuming the reason the DM assigned to Mrs Wood surfaced last is because she was still looking for Mrs Wood. I can't be sure of that of course it would require the DM's statement (if she was believed) to clarify that point!

I think this is a reasonable assumption. And, for anyone who thinks the DM should have surfaced and sought help, look at the issues surrounding Gabe Watson when he let his new wife sink while he purportedly went for help.

... I don't think we can rule out another stroke, Narcosis, Suicide or overconfidence and unwillingness to listen to a younger DM as contributing factors in this event.

I agree we can't rule these out. But, I feel it is too speculative to base any theory on any of these. (My pet theory will come shortly.)

... Certainly IMHO the Dive Operator and every crew member who did not take onlyhalcyon's attempts to get help share some responsibility!

Again, it seems to me that by the point onlyhalcyon was able to signal or otherwise communicate to anyone, it was too late. As such, I do not see it is a matter of sharing responsibility for anything.

Now for my personal pet theory: For reasons that no one will ever know, Mrs. Woods went deep and did not come back up. She died either (1) as a result of running out of air, (2) oxygen toxicity at sufficient depth (yes, even on air), or (3) from some other condition.

I recognize that my theory is not particularly elegant or exciting. However, it does explain the known facts and does not require speculation about "facts" that cannot be established.

The net result is that I am moving toward the camp that questions why the DM assigned to Mrs. Woods let her get so far away that when Mr. Woods started her descent over the wall, the DM was not able to act decisively to bring her back up. While I can see why the DM may not have chased Mrs. Woods after a certain point, I wonder whether, had the initial interaction not been so deep, i.e. had the DM gotten to her sooner, the DM would have had more opportunity to remedy the situation.

[ItsBruce]

Once Mrs. Wood had "escaped" her rent-a-buddy DM, I believe the incident was pretty much over. I don't believe that anyone without a submarine would have had much chance to get to her after that. The crew who failed to respond were in the wrong, but they didn't contribute in any way to Mrs. Wood's demise.

I think this just about says it all.

So, how is it that Mrs. Wood "escaped"?

I know a lot of people around the board feel the DM was negligent in letting that happen. I render no opinion on this, but the issue does concern me a lot.

[H2O Gal]

Can someone answer a question for me? I've read that the DM was giving onlyhalcyon the hand signal that she had lost her buddy. Not only do I NOT know that one, I couldn't find one anywhere on the internet after googling it. What IS the hand signal for "I've lost my buddy"? I know the one for "buddy up" but not the other.....

[LeadTurn_SD]

Point to yourself (or to the diver who has lost a buddy if it is not your buddy that is missing). Then use the "Buddy-Up" signal followed by the "I Don't Know" signal. It will get the point across... you'll either be stating that you do not know where your buddy is, or asking the other diver where their buddy is.

Best wishes.

[alewar]

What IS the hand signal for "I've lost my buddy"? I know the one for "buddy up" but not the other.....


I would try with something like this:

http://imgur.com/gHvzk.jpg

[bowlofpetunias]

I love it when you make me think Bruce!

I respectfully disagree with your theory.
There is no evidence that Mrs. Woods was not capable of diving as a result of any prior stroke. Nor is there actual evidence that the prior stroke was actually a contributing factor to the incident.

There is no evidence what Mrs. Woods' doctor did or did not tell her. Perhaps the doctor told Mrs. Woods not to dive and was quite clear and perhaps Mrs. Woods chose to disregard the doctor's admonition. Perhaps not. In either case, what the doctor did or didn't tell Mrs. Woods cannot be a part of any theory.

In my post I was careful in my wording.... That breakdown may have started with the Doctor failing to make it clear to the Woods what activity level Mrs Woods was capable of. I would not accuse anyone of incompetence without significant information that is lacking here. It is one of a doctors responsibilities to completely inform their patients of all risks associated with the medical conditions they are treating them for.. some fail in this regard.


Again, we do not know that there were any medical risks. Nor do we have evidence these were a factor in the incident.I am not a doctor but have enough training/experience in the field to know that anyone who has had a TIA is at significant risk of future strokes without subjecting themselves to increased pressures and gas exchange issues on the simplest dive. I can not imagine a dive doctor clearing this lady to dive. In the next section of your post you seem to agree with that.


If the Woods did let the dive op know Mrs. Woods had had a stroke, I am surprised the dive op let her dive at all. I've seen too many dive ops refuse to let divers dive for much lesser maladies.

Again, there is no evidence of a communication failure. For all anyone can tell, Mrs. Woods got the DM's message quite clearly and then disregarded it.There are two parts of communication.. communicator... and receiver both are required for effective communication. The DM was communicating by banging on her tank.. that is pretty clear.... Mrs Woods was not receiving. I would suggest they needed to be very clear on the surface how they would communicate and how they would dive. Even saying.. "I am paying you to accompany me I will do my own dive, your job is to show me interesting stuff or watch me do my own thing. I will not be follwing any directions from you" granted it is possible the DM may have decided not to dive based on those instructions from her "employer diver".

That the DMs and Dive Crew failed to listen to onlyhalcyon is an understatement. However, my impression is that by the time onlyhalcyon got to the other DMs and/or Dive Crew, it was way too late to perform any sort of a rescue or recovery.

I think this is a reasonable assumption. And, for anyone who thinks the DM should have surfaced and sought help, look at the issues surrounding Gabe Watson when he let his new wife sink while he purportedly went for help.I agree we can't rule these out. But, I feel it is too speculative to base any theory on any of these. (My pet theory will come shortly.)

Again, it seems to me that by the point onlyhalcyon was able to signal or otherwise communicate to anyone, it was too late. As such, I do not see it is a matter of sharing responsibility for anything.[/quote]

I got the impression that the DM signaled fairly early on. Yes it may have been too late already... we don't know.. maybe Mrs Wood started to swim back to the surface at some point and having someone there looking for her could have helped. Probably that is a stretch but delaying the search may have done nothing worse than deny the family a body to burry.. to some that is a significat set to 'closure'.

Now for my personal pet theory: For reasons that no one will ever know, Mrs. Woods went deep and did not come back up. She died either (1) as a result of running out of air, (2) oxygen toxicity at sufficient depth (yes, even on air), or (3) from some other condition.

I recognize that my theory is not particularly elegant or exciting. However, it does explain the known facts and does not require speculation about "facts" that cannot be established.

The net result is that I am moving toward the camp that questions why the DM assigned to Mrs. Woods let her get so far away that when Mr. Woods started her descent over the wall, the DM was not able to act decisively to bring her back up. While I can see why the DM may not have chased Mrs. Woods after a certain point, I wonder whether, had the initial interaction not been so deep, i.e. had the DM gotten to her sooner, the DM would have had more opportunity to remedy the situation.Well I can't disagree with your pet theory! I still contend that a number of things contributed to this death and Communication breakdown was a factor. Only one thing is clear and irrefutable Mrs Woods started a dive she did not return from. There are a lot of people impacted by that fact. The family and loved ones are the most obvious. The Dive Operator's staff, everyone on the boats and involved in the search also need support. Even tho IMHO a number of people did or failed to do things that contributed to this event accusations and blame laying with not bring this poor lady back. I would rather try to understand what contributed, learn from it and if it is ever in my power to prevent future incidents.

[H2O Gal]

Even tho IMHO a number of people did or failed to do things that contributed to this event accusations and blame laying with not bring this poor lady back. I would rather try to understand what contributed, learn from it and if it is ever in my power to prevent future incidents.

A BIG Amen!

[Thalassamania]

In the process of figuring out what went wrong, inevitably, you will lay blame.

[ItsBruce]

After thinking about this thread and my last few posts, I am making a mental note to myself that during my pre-dive briefing with my buddy, especially if it is an insta-buddy, to discuss how close we will be. I want to know that if something goes terribly wrong with my buddy, I can grab hold of the tank valve and head for the surface. And, while I will not count on a buddy to be able to help me, I want to increase the chance of a buddy being able to help me.

An interesting aside. I do a lot of travel diving and except in Florida, everywhere I've dived, the dive op has provided a dive guide of one sort or another. I do not recall a single one who I would rate less than A+++. In fact, I can hardly imagine myself ever getting to be that good a diver as any of them were.

[rosebud]

Steve,
Having dived with Stuart Coves for three weeks over a period of three years I can say that the greatest problem they face is the number of inexperienced/unsafe divers that they deal with on a daily basis. A certified/properly trained diver is in charge of his/her own equipment and is responsible to properly dive the profile given in the briefing. I watched divers pay no attention to the divemaster's topside or underwater instructions, open bags of food with sharks present, and not make a safety stop--all on one dive. The day before we had to pick up two divers 600 yards off of the wreck that they were supposed to dive--and there was no current. While the staff is responsible for the group every diver is in charge of their own safety. I would also assert that the problems you encountered/mentioned above were not the result of the dive crew, but rather the poor divers that were too proud to ask for help or misrepresented their prior experience. Why didn't you stop the novice from cresting the wall-wasn't he with you. You chose to take inexperienced divers to Stuart Coves--they are not babysitters.

[Kksmama]

Interesting take on this, Rosebud. It is my perception that the ratio of competent to inexperienced/unsafe divers has changed dramatically during the years my buddy and I were out of the water. Until our recent trip to Hawaii, all our diving was done in Florida and one live aboard trip to the Bahamas in the early 90s. I don't remember any boats taking us out without checking our c cards, and before advanced dives they looked at our log books, too. I don't remember guides getting in the water with us, except maybe on drift dives.

From what I've read and experienced this year, things have changed. Divers are not taking as much responsibility for themselves, and boat crews seem to be trying to fill the gaps in their training rather than simply turning them away. I can't imagine being a divemaster, and I'm surprised that liability insurance is available to these boat captains.

New divers don't know what they don't know. Dive charters are probably experiencing economic pressure, and I imagine employee divemasters are between a rock and a hard place. Accidents seem much more likely under these conditions. I worry that the sport will have more and more accidents, and become thought of as a reckless and dangerous activity. Just when it is time to renew our life insurance policies.

[MEG DIVER]

Hello board I have not made a post for a wile now, I was there an i wish I knew what happen the one thing I do know is that we lost a life that day, that is the sad part, if she wanted it that way or not and the only way we will ever know what really happen is that maybe one day the DM will come to us and post it the way it really happen, I really dont think anyone knows what went on down there but her the DM .As far as diving with SC again ,I will, an hope to my dive buddy and myself are trying to plan a trip there in OCT. AN yes I want to dive the wall again. and like I said the only one that can put this thread to rest is the DM.

[bowlofpetunias]

Steve,
Having dived with Stuart Coves for three weeks over a period of three years I can say that the greatest problem they face is the number of inexperienced/unsafe divers that they deal with on a daily basis. A certified/properly trained diver is in charge of his/her own equipment and is responsible to properly dive the profile given in the briefing. I watched divers pay no attention to the divemaster's topside or underwater instructions, open bags of food with sharks present, and not make a safety stop--all on one dive. The day before we had to pick up two divers 600 yards off of the wreck that they were supposed to dive--and there was no current. While the staff is responsible for the group every diver is in charge of their own safety. I would also assert that the problems you encountered/mentioned above were not the result of the dive crew, but rather the poor divers that were too proud to ask for help or misrepresented their prior experience. Why didn't you stop the novice from cresting the wall-wasn't he with you. You chose to take inexperienced divers to Stuart Coves--they are not babysitters.

I am not sure who you are referring to here rosebud but the Woods hired a DM to be Mrs Wood's Buddy. As far as I can tell nobody that has posted in this thread had anything to do with the Wood's choice to dive that site.

I do agree that we all need to take responsibility for our decisions. That applies to the divers and the dive operators. As I've said here before... we need to look for lessons and not get hung up on the blame game. If we look for a lesson and apply it.. we may prevent incidents if we are too interested in point fingers of blame we may miss something valuable.

Hello board I have not made a post for a wile now, I was there an i wish I knew what happen the one thing I do know is that we lost a life that day, that is the sad part, if she wanted it that way or not and the only way we will ever know what really happen is that maybe one day the DM will come to us and post it the way it really happen, I really dont think anyone knows what went on down there but her the DM .As far as diving with SC again ,I will, an hope to my dive buddy and myself are trying to plan a trip there in OCT. AN yes I want to dive the wall again. and like I said the only one that can put this thread to rest is the DM.

Meg being at a dive where someone is lost must be a terrible experience... your holiday was darkened by this event and I am sorry you had to go through that. I believe the other divers on that trip were also victims in a way :dontknow:

The fact that a number of people have indicated they are happy to continue diving with SC is good to hear.

I disagree that the DM can put the thread to rest. She may be able to post what happened from her perspective but I doubt that it will be accepted as the final word on what really happened. It would be interesting to get her perspective. IMHO I doubt the DM would gain anything from posting here. I wish her well on her journey to healing.

[ScubaSteve]

ScubaSteve mentions the DM should have been able to communicate. There are many cases of people who are in shock who can't communicate. Without benefit of other information, based on the description, it sounds like the DM could have been in shock.

And I maintain this opinion. I am one of those people, who, while it goes against other's thought processes and beliefs, holds a DM to a higher standard of expectation. I expect that if a DM loses their charge, then they must be capable of staving off shock until they have expressed the facts to someone. I expect the same of the firefighter who sees me in a burning building but needs to get someone else to help them to get me. The DM made it back to the surface safely did they not? While I believe there is information point to shock, I believe the fact that they safely made it topside and onto the boat says they were not. I stand by the fact that the DM's failure to express the situation to the boat crew is one of many failings. This is of course, just my opinion.

So, how is it that Mrs. Wood "escaped"?

By the simple fact that the DM was not able to maintain control over her when there was a percieved struggle would imply that she did in fact "escape".

[onlyhalcyon]

It is rare that accidents have only one error, its usually several. For myself I always dived with a slate. In the past my wife and I only used it to joke and spot fish. For some reason it was not in my Scuba bag and I noticed 24 hrs earlier which was our first dive in the Bahamas (the fatal dive was our 3rd dive). I had meant to purchase another at the Stuart cove Dive shop but got caught up in the vaccation and forgot. My wife and I will never dive with out one again. On a side note the Dive Inv team emailed me on Thusday requesting a copy of my dive log (from my comp) for the dive that morning so they are still working on trying to peice together what happened that morning.

[onlyhalcyon]

I forgot to post that the DM with Ms Wood was not on Nitrox as others assume

[ItsBruce]

It seems clear that Mrs. Wood did "escape." That is why I said I was concerned. Needless to say, "concern" does not equate with placing blame.

What I meant when I asked "how" she "escaped" is what mechanism or chain of events led to her "escape"? (I recognize that many times, when I ask such questions, it is to challenge the proposition. This is not one of those times.)

(Note: Good though I purport to be in using the English language to express myself, at this very moment, it seems to be failing me.)

It is possible that some emergency distracted the DM and while the DM was distracted, Mrs. Wood "escaped." It is possible that the DM did not see any problem with Mrs. Wood moving a little bit away from her. There are many other possibilities. I'm just curious which one or ones it might have been.

For what its worth, I resolve to keep much closer tabs on my buddy than I ever have before, even if my buddy is a DM or an instructor.

[onlyhalcyon]

I havn't been too vocal on this thread not for the want of saying what happened that morning, more due to the fact that I don't really have the free time to read what is only speculation. Of course I have my own interp of what happened that morning, I have rolled it around in my mind hundreds of times that if only I had left my wife and took charge of the situation Ms Wood would have made it top side. As I was watching the events unfold it was also very hard to process what was really happening. By that I mean that I could see some thing that looked not right, I felt it but when you process the info, you have to take a reality check and ask yourself it what you think you are seeing is realy happening. lets face it many dives will never see a diver intentionaly push away a DM and continue towards serious danger. Anyone would recognise a diver showing visible signs of distress, but this was not the case infact quite the opposite. Ms Woods actions seemed calm and with intent, almost like the DM was over reacting by touching her.

After the dive and talikng with my wife I learned that DM's in vaccation spots are little more than glorified tour guides, and I don't mean that to sound at all negative. What I mean is, they may well know the water, current , dive site, local conditions etc but when the chips are down who realy has your back? YOUR BUDDY!!! Can any of us realy expect a DM to know our dive limits, health, frame of mind, or to spot an action which is out of the norm. If I were to place my wife and I in that exact situation I would know in seconds that there was an issue. My wife never dives deeper than me! A sign. She moving away from me and decendingis something that has never happened! unresponsive to signaling and so on. A DM has to process this and wonder what is happening. It is unfair to hold a DM 100% responsible for what happened.

Of course I can't help feeling that if I were in the DM's position that this would not have happened. I know that if it were my wife down there I would have been able to manage the situation. It is very easy to grab a tank valve and take 100% control of that diver. I found this out first hand around 3 years ago while diving in Thailand when a fellow diver thought it would be funny to scare me, by grabing my tank valve and hiding behind me while a huge Titan Trigger fish sped towards our group. I was totaly helpless and couldnt move and at the time couldnt understand why. Topside it became a big joke at my expense, but I will always remember the feeling.

Even now I think about that morning not in trauma but analitical, I did have the op to help even if only for around 7 seconds after the 7 seconds had passed it was outside of what was reasonably possible. And if had chosen to leave my buddy I would have endangered the one person whom I had an unspoken agrement to help survive if the need arose.

My wife din't dive for the remainder of or vaccation while I chose to contine. I have to admit that I gave greater attention to whom I would buddy with. In the past I would buddy up with anyone the DM selected no matter what the cert level was. Not so now. I watched how single divers set up their equipment, what equipment they had, was it their own or rental. Talked to them and made the decision. I don't want to baby sit a new diver or put my safety in obvious danger. When we are on dives DM's are very often too far away to assist if there is an issue and its not their fault, they are typicaly young kids living out a lifestyle of free diving and fun in the sun while barely paying the bills for an apartment and beer money how can any of us entrust our lives to them? Its not fair to expect that of them and even more foolish of us to place such trust in them. I'm not saying they don't do a great job and help us enjoy dives, that they do very well, but they are not there to watch over each and every diver, its just not possible.

[onlyhalcyon]

For what its worth, I resolve to keep much closer tabs on my buddy than I ever have before, even if my buddy is a DM or an instructor.


If there is anything we can all take away from this its said perfectly in this quote!!

[MMM]

In the process of figuring out what went wrong, inevitably, you will lay blame.

Not if you are well-versed in critical incident analysis. The latter is a growing "best practice" in medicine. One of the precepts is to avoid assignation of blame so that health providers don't circle the wagons and drive error underground. It's tough sledding b/c of the standard desire to assign blame then fire their asses.

[LeadTurn_SD]

Not if you are well-versed in critical incident analysis. The latter is a growing "best practice" in medicine. One of the precepts is to avoid assignation of blame so that health providers don't circle the wagons and drive error underground. It's tough sledding b/c of the standard desire to assign blame then fire their asses.

I understand what you are saying.

But there is a point where a simple "error" or mistake crosses a line and becomes gross negligence or incompetence.... and the responsibility for preventing future "errors" of this sort lies with those, who in the end, must assign blame.

Best wishes.

[Thalassamania]

I am quite familiar with critical incident analysis (my wife is a nurse) however, when an instrument is left inside the patient ... it's damn near impossible to point that out without assigning blame (to several people).

[Katamuki]

Not if you are well-versed in critical incident analysis. The latter is a growing "best practice" in medicine. One of the precepts is to avoid assignation of blame so that health providers don't circle the wagons and drive error underground. It's tough sledding b/c of the standard desire to assign blame then fire their asses.

Its very common to do M&M reviews to find out what happened in medical issues and, yes, blame can and is affixed to practitioners or staff in these cases if warranted. Reviewing errors can be tricky for the "reviewer" as well as often not all the pertinent facts are available, just like the case of the diver in this thread.

[ScubaSteve]

My bad. I believe I see your intent now.

It seems clear that Mrs. Wood did "escape." That is why I said I was concerned. Needless to say, "concern" does not equate with placing blame.

What I meant when I asked "how" she "escaped" is what mechanism or chain of events led to her "escape"? (I recognize that many times, when I ask such questions, it is to challenge the proposition. This is not one of those times.)

[InTheDrink]

Human error will always occur. This doesn't always necessitate blame (although of course it frequently can and does).

Systemic error is clearly more of a worry.

This incident doesn't smell of systemic error and I'd hesitate to draw too many conclusions on what lessons could be learnt. Perhaps some. Staying close to your buddy is one perhaps.

I view this incident entirely differently to the recent Cayman death where systems broke down all over the place. That IMHO is where the rich picking of lesons to be learned are. In this case a DM was faced with a highly unusual situation and maybe didn't react to heroic standards but likely mostly within her training (alleged missing diver alert aside).

However, it sounds quite likely to me that no-one was going to retrieve the missing diver alive.

If I'm missing some critical piece of the puzzle (I've read a lot but not all posts) please let me know.

Cheers,
J

[iztok]

I have to admit that I gave greater attention to whom I would buddy with. In the past I would buddy up with anyone the DM selected no matter what the cert level was. Not so now. I watched how single divers set up their equipment, what equipment they had, was it their own or rental. Talked to them and made the decision. I don't want to baby sit a new diver or put my safety in obvious danger.

I am just glad that as a new diver I don't meet many such people. All that I've met so far were very helpful after I've informed them that I am a new diver with barely over 10 dives total (as of past weekend) and that I am not comfortable going deeper then 35-40ft and would prefer staying above 30ft if possible. I know I have a lot to learn and I would prefer to dive with more experienced diver (that understands that I am new). But I am also clear about my comfort level and what I would like to learn on a particular dive (i.e. deploying SMB at the end of the dive to use for 15ft/3min safety stop).

[H2O Gal]

Actually, I like diving with newer divers. I've been diving so long (over thirty years) that I've gotten very complacent in regards to diving. That's not saying I'm unsafe, but I just don't give it much thought. And my husband buddy is a UW photographer, so most the time he's watching for fish, not for me, so he has a bit of the "same ocean same buddy" mentality going on, because he trusts my skills and comfort level in the water. A newer diver is usually more aware of their equipment, limitations, and what's going on with their buddy. And so when I dive with one, I am also usually pay better attention so such things. And I often learn something new from them. Iztok, you can dive with me any time!

[cappyjon431]

Actually, I like diving with newer divers. I've been diving so long (over thirty years) that I've gotten very complacent in regards to diving. That's not saying I'm unsafe, but I just don't give it much thought. And my husband buddy is a UW photographer, so most the time he's watching for fish, not for me, so he has a bit of the "same ocean same buddy" mentality going on, because he trusts my skills and comfort level in the water. A newer diver is usually more aware of their equipment, limitations, and what's going on with their buddy. And so when I dive with one, I am also usually pay better attention so such things. And I often learn something new from them. Iztok, you can dive with me any time!


Very well said H2O Gal. I have over 3500 dives under my belt but it seems that lately when I dive with my wife I have gotten somewhat complacent. I seem to have had more boneheaded stunts in the last year than I have had in the previous 20 years (last week I threw my rig over the side to gear up in the water and I realized I forgot to put air in my BC. It was not easy for an old out of shape guy to freedive to 75 feet to retrieve my rig and I came up out of breath. What's worse, it was embarrassing as I was the "experienced" one!). My wife is an excellent diver, but I have noticed that as her comfort level has increased, my vigilance has decreased. When I go out with new divers and actually see them doing their predive safety checks it always reminds how important the little things are.

[Web Monkey]

. . . how can any of us entrust our lives to them? Its not fair to expect that of them and even more foolish of us to place such trust in them. I'm not saying they don't do a great job and help us enjoy dives, that they do very well, but they are not there to watch over each and every diver, its just not possible.

Yes, it's not possible for the DM to keep track of every diver. In reality, most don't keep track of any of the divers, except to stop a few times during the dive and wait for people to catch up.

That a dive is "safe" because it's lead by a DM is one of the Great Lies of the SCUBA Tourism Industry.

On the other hand, it is absolutely possible for a professional or even a good buddy to be aware of dangerous behaviors and bring the "misbehaving" diver safely to the surface before the dive gets any more "exciting."

This was planned as a relatively shallow dive, and it wouldn't be difficult to figure out that when max depth is 60' and your buddy is at 70', then 80' and descending, something might be wrong. At this depth a rescue would be easy and low-risk. The fact that it ever got to 100'+ means that the victim's buddy wasn't being a buddy at all.

Terry

[LeadTurn_SD]

I think this current thread compliments this earlier thread: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/new-divers-those-considering-diving/283566-who-responsible-what.html

"Who is responsible for what?" is a good reminder to all new (and old) divers that they are ultimately in charge of their own safety, and not to rely on dive professionals to keep them safe.

This current thread is a sobering reminder to dive professionals about the dangers of becoming complacent or distracted when leading a dive.

Best wishes.

[onlyhalcyon]

I didnt intend to come across sounding like I wouldnt buddy with a 'newer' diver for the want of a better word. I would base my decision on who to buddy with based on my planned dive. Its hardly right for a diver to buddy up with someone who is open water certified when on a sea wall where hammerhead sharks were spotted at 100ft the morning before. I personaly feel like its asking for trouble.

[iztok]

I didnt intend to come across sounding like I wouldnt buddy with a 'newer' diver for the want of a better word. I would base my decision on who to buddy with based on my planned dive. Its hardly right for a diver to buddy up with someone who is open water certified when on a sea wall where hammerhead sharks were spotted at 100ft the morning before. I personaly feel like its asking for trouble.

OK, makes bit more sense now.

Here is my 2 cents for what is worth (coming from someone with 11 logged dives).

1. I would not dive with an experienced diver to go beyond my comfort level, that includes deep dives. Not until I finish my deep dive specialty and become AOW and am comfortable doing so.

2. I value open dialog/opinions when it comes to pre-dive planning. And finding the right buddy for the planned dive is important.

3. If everyone has a buddy (pre-existing pairs) and two are only one left I feel that dive should be within the comfort zone and experience level of the least experienced diver. I don't feel peer pressure should be deciding factor and seeing some cool hammersharks on the expense of safety is not my thing.

4. At the end if you are "stuck" with someone like me who doesn't feel comfortable going to 100ft and I am your only choice. Too bad, you either dive more conservative dive or I don't dive (which in most cases means you don't have a buddy to dive with).

So in my personal case I either dive conservatively within my comfort zone (or with instructor to teach me new skill out of my comfort zone at the time) or I will sit out the dive.

Hope that makes sense.

[ItsBruce]

I havn't been too vocal on this thread not for the want of saying what happened that morning, more due to the fact that I don't really have the free time to read what is only speculation. Of course I have my own interp of what happened that morning, I have rolled it around in my mind hundreds of times that if only I had left my wife and took charge of the situation Ms Wood would have made it top side.

Rolling around after the fact is different from considering at the time or, worse yet, doing. There is no reason to risk two casualties, especially when one is your buddy.

After the dive and talikng with my wife I learned that DM's in vaccation spots are little more than glorified tour guides, and I don't mean that to sound at all negative. What I mean is, they may well know the water, current , dive site, local conditions etc but when the chips are down who realy has your back?

I have dived with a lot of DMs in vacation spots. Each has exhibited extraordinary skill. Each has been extremely conscientious about the group's well being. One was so good and so well trained that I can only aspire to be that good.

Admittedly, when such a DM is acting as the group guide or DM, he or she cannot give as much attention as when he or she is acting as a specific buddy.

[ItsBruce]

OK, makes bit more sense now.

Here is my 2 cents for what is worth (coming from someone with 11 logged dives).

1. I would not dive with an experienced diver to go beyond my comfort level, that includes deep dives. Not until I finish my deep dive specialty and become AOW and am comfortable doing so.

2. I value open dialog/opinions when it comes to pre-dive planning. And finding the right buddy for the planned dive is important.

3. If everyone has a buddy (pre-existing pairs) and two are only one left I feel that dive should be within the comfort zone and experience level of the least experienced diver. I don't feel peer pressure should be deciding factor and seeing some cool hammersharks on the expense of safety is not my thing.

4. At the end if you are "stuck" with someone like me who doesn't feel comfortable going to 100ft and I am your only choice. Too bad, you either dive more conservative dive or I don't dive (which in most cases means you don't have a buddy to dive with).

So in my personal case I either dive conservatively within my comfort zone (or with instructor to teach me new skill out of my comfort zone at the time) or I will sit out the dive.

Hope that makes sense.

I've expressed my thoughts on insta-buddies several times in the past. My premise is that a buddy is like a piece of gear. If I fail to bring it, I need to borrow one. In that event, I can't complain it is not as good as what I'd like. I either use it or sit out the dive. That being said, if I have a choice of buddies, I have no problem diving with newer divers if I get the impression they are generally safe and want to improve and if the dive is not one where I've come a long way or spent a great deal of money to do. If it is one I've come a long way to do or am paying a lot to do, I'll opt for a buddy who I feel will be safe and whose skills are comparable to mine.

[Riger]

I've expressed my thoughts on insta-buddies several times in the past. My premise is that a buddy is like a piece of gear. If I fail to bring it, I need to borrow one. In that event, I can't complain it is not as good as what I'd like. I either use it or sit out the dive. That being said, if I have a choice of buddies, I have no problem diving with newer divers if I get the impression they are generally safe and want to improve and if the dive is not one where I've come a long way or spent a great deal of money to do. If it is one I've come a long way to do or am paying a lot to do, I'll opt for a buddy who I feel will be safe and whose skills are comparable to mine.

This line of discussion is becoming interesting.

I agree with your sentiments ItsBruce and for this reason my wife and I dive together, its something we enjoy together and (within reason) we do not dive without each other. There have been some exceptions where I have tweaked my back on a liveaboard and sat out for a dive or two. In this case we had been on the boat long enough to have established groups of like-minded divers and she easily fitted in with another pair to make up a buddy-trio.

Here is a thought; In this thread we have been focusing on the DM as a buddy and the buddy made some apparently irrational decisions to venture into the depths (never mind what the DM should or should not have done for a moment).

What if this was an insta-buddy for you or I that on the surface (pun intended) appeared of sound mind and skill sets, had a few hundred dives and was for all appearances just like you and I but underwater ..... followed a profile like Mrs. Woods? What would the reasonable buddy be expected to do (assuming no specialist training)?

Best Regards

Richard

[bowlofpetunias]

I didnt intend to come across sounding like I wouldnt buddy with a 'newer' diver for the want of a better word. I would base my decision on who to buddy with based on my planned dive. Its hardly right for a diver to buddy up with someone who is open water certified when on a sea wall where hammerhead sharks were spotted at 100ft the morning before. I personaly feel like its asking for trouble.

I didn't read it that you wouldn't buddy with a newer diver onlyhalcyon. Anyone with any sense having just experienced what you had would feel the same way.. Credit to you for getting back in the water so quickly many would not be able to and that is a resaonable response too.

I'm with you.. the dive plan determines who I will accept as a buddy. I enjoy the way new divers make the experience "fresh" for me again. Seeing the excitement in their eyes when they see their first _____ reminds me just how special it is to be able to dive.

I have refused to buddy with people I didn't feel safe to dive with for any reason.. it is MY LIFE on the line. No one should allow themselves to be pressured into doing any dive anywhere, anytime with anybody! The potential costs are just too high!

[Kksmama]

What if this was an insta-buddy for you or I that on the surface (pun intended) appeared of sound mind and skill sets, had a few hundred dives and was for all appearances just like you and I but underwater .....
\
Excellent question, I hope we get a variety of answers. I'm fortunate to have my husband (now we each take one of our teenagers) as buddy but this is something to have thought out in advance - along with various "can I buddy with you?" scenarios. It would be awkward to say no...but I can't imagine my teen and I taking on the responsibility for a "Mrs. Woods".

[alohagal]

I havn't been too vocal on this thread not for the want of saying what happened that morning, more due to the fact that I don't really have the free time to read what is only speculation. Of course I have my own interp of what happened that morning, I have rolled it around in my mind hundreds of times that if only I had left my wife and took charge of the situation Ms Wood would have made it top side. As I was watching the events unfold it was also very hard to process what was really happening. By that I mean that I could see some thing that looked not right, I felt it but when you process the info, you have to take a reality check and ask yourself it what you think you are seeing is realy happening. lets face it many dives will never see a diver intentionaly push away a DM and continue towards serious danger. Anyone would recognise a diver showing visible signs of distress, but this was not the case infact quite the opposite. Ms Woods actions seemed calm and with intent, almost like the DM was over reacting by touching her.

After the dive and talikng with my wife I learned that DM's in vaccation spots are little more than glorified tour guides, and I don't mean that to sound at all negative. What I mean is, they may well know the water, current , dive site, local conditions etc but when the chips are down who realy has your back? YOUR BUDDY!!! Can any of us realy expect a DM to know our dive limits, health, frame of mind, or to spot an action which is out of the norm. If I were to place my wife and I in that exact situation I would know in seconds that there was an issue. My wife never dives deeper than me! A sign. She moving away from me and decendingis something that has never happened! unresponsive to signaling and so on. A DM has to process this and wonder what is happening. It is unfair to hold a DM 100% responsible for what happened.

Of course I can't help feeling that if I were in the DM's position that this would not have happened. I know that if it were my wife down there I would have been able to manage the situation. It is very easy to grab a tank valve and take 100% control of that diver. I found this out first hand around 3 years ago while diving in Thailand when a fellow diver thought it would be funny to scare me, by grabing my tank valve and hiding behind me while a huge Titan Trigger fish sped towards our group. I was totaly helpless and couldnt move and at the time couldnt understand why. Topside it became a big joke at my expense, but I will always remember the feeling.

Even now I think about that morning not in trauma but analitical, I did have the op to help even if only for around 7 seconds after the 7 seconds had passed it was outside of what was reasonably possible. And if had chosen to leave my buddy I would have endangered the one person whom I had an unspoken agrement to help survive if the need arose.

My wife din't dive for the remainder of or vaccation while I chose to contine. I have to admit that I gave greater attention to whom I would buddy with. In the past I would buddy up with anyone the DM selected no matter what the cert level was. Not so now. I watched how single divers set up their equipment, what equipment they had, was it their own or rental. Talked to them and made the decision. I don't want to baby sit a new diver or put my safety in obvious danger. When we are on dives DM's are very often too far away to assist if there is an issue and its not their fault, they are typicaly young kids living out a lifestyle of free diving and fun in the sun while barely paying the bills for an apartment and beer money how can any of us entrust our lives to them? Its not fair to expect that of them and even more foolish of us to place such trust in them. I'm not saying they don't do a great job and help us enjoy dives, that they do very well, but they are not there to watch over each and every diver, its just not possible.
First, let me say, it is great to have you posting here, since you were actually part of this dive.

I have so many questions I would love to ask. I tend to be more interested in Ms. Woods and her demeanor, mind set and motivations for her actions as has been described. Of course she is the only one who could shed light on the absolute truth. And we will never have that.

What do you conclude as you mull this over in your mind? Was she acting ?narced?, defiant against someone directing her in what to do? Or hell bent on descending willfully? Or just seeming confused? This part of the scenario just really is key to me in the puzzle of what occurred here.

Thanks for any insight you can shed,
Mary

[dmoore19]

I have followed this thread from the beginning. I have read all 745 posts. After all of this I have made some changes to my thinking. I am in the 50+ category. I have wanted to learn to dive since I can remember but other things in life prevented it. Finally, last year, I (with encouragement from my wife a non-diver) decided to do it. After getting my OW cert I had thought that I would stick to the easier dives. No cold water stuff, good visibility, +/-40', some photography. A very conservative approach to a wonderful sport. I went on my first trip last November. What an experience!!! It was everything I could have hoped for and much more. I had decided that the OW cert would be all that I would need. After having followed this thread in search of knowledge and reasons I have changed my mind. I will be seeking futher education. If only once a person could have the training and knowledge to save anothers life or to attempt to save anothers life..........

The posts about DM's good and bad have brought that part of diving to light as well. I no longer look at the DM as a insurance policy for safety. The DM's I have been around were great but the realization that they can't be there for everything hit home. I also realize that I am going to have to get more practice, there's nothing wrong with that!

Thank you all for the eyeopening posts and speculations. It has put diving safety in a new category. I try to be safe but now realize that things happen.

[RV]

I've just returned from NAS and diving on the White Bungie. All in all I think Stuart's Cove did a fairly good job. They went out of their way for me several times. I did see several inexperienced divers, including children and they didn't seem to keep very control over the divers and their whereabouts.

It was however my first Caribbean dive to see other divers with BP/Wings (Halcyon, OMS, and my DSS), including the ST'Cove photographer and his necklace mounted 2nd.. Even a few with long hoses.
I felt safe but then again, I was responsible for my own safety.

My one real complaint was the very short surface intervals.

[Web Monkey]

After having followed this thread in search of knowledge and reasons I have changed my mind. I will be seeking futher education. If only once a person could have the training and knowledge to save anothers life or to attempt to save anothers life..........

The posts about DM's good and bad have brought that part of diving to light as well. I no longer look at the DM as a insurance policy for safety. The DM's I have been around were great but the realization that they can't be there for everything hit home. I also realize that I am going to have to get more practice, there's nothing wrong with that!

Thank you all for the eyeopening posts and speculations. It has put diving safety in a new category. I try to be safe but now realize that things happen.

Congratulations on your decision! It will make your diving much safer and may save someone else's life.

When Mrs. Woods first started acting strangely (blew the dive plan, ignored the DM), a good buddy or DM would simply assume she was incompetent and bring her to the surface. While the reason for her action may be interesting and could be discussed back on the boat, the main goal is to not have the diver die or become injured.

This requires nothing more than what is taught in SSI's Stress and Rescue class, and although I have no direct knowledge of it, I would expect other agencies are very similar.

Since the above training is required for any professional certification, I'm still a little confused as to how Mrs. Woods' buddy (DM) was unable to prevent her descent.

Terry

[d_lafleur]

Since the above training is required for any professional certification, I'm still a little confused as to how Mrs. Woods' buddy (DM) was unable to prevent her descent.

Terry

I agree, something got missed at the point of the plan getting blown.

When I dive outside of the "DM dive plan", my buddy and I have already planned our dive and I let the "DM" know, if there is one on the dive, our intentions after the briefing. There is no point in taking away from the rest of the group for something that is in the plan. However it also lets someone outside of my buddy and I know our intentions. I typically try not to deviate too far from the "DM Plan" However I do want the freedom to chase the odd sighting with my buddy.


Dmoore19, you will never regret that decision, I am enjoying every next step in the training, the more I learn the more comfortable I get. It also gives me reasons to do "check out" and "skill improvement" dives, so the wife is a bit more leniant, as I am the buddy and DM for her children. :D

[Scubaon]

I worked with Radha for over 6 years in Orinda. When she first spoke with me about diving I was very suprised she got certified without ever learning to swim! I did my best to convince her diving and not being able to swim was a deadly mixture. I am a DM myself and tried as I may I could not talk sense into her. I'm very sorry to hear about her accident, but it was bound to happen. I didn't hear about the stroke the month prior to the accident, but I do know she had one about a year and a half ago. Jayjones post #372 mentioned Radha's being, shall we say a little head strong, that's putting it mildly. Not to speak ill of the dead but she could be very pushy/rude and had definate opinions on things and didn't care about yours.
As a diver I'm sad to hear of the loss, it hurts us all. As a person, well that's a different story, shall I say, I have a definate opinion on that myself it's probably better I don't share openly.