Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[stadevene]

When Mrs. Woods first started acting strangely (blew the dive plan, ignored the DM), a good buddy or DM would simply assume she was incompetent and bring her to the surface.

This requires nothing more than what is taught in SSI's Stress and Rescue class, and although I have no direct knowledge of it, I would expect other agencies are very similar.


I've read this a couple of times today and it's bothered me each time I've read it. What this says to me is I wouldn't be a good buddy. I am quite sure I would not have immediately recognized she was incompetent or assumed she was incompetent...if that's what she actually was. If I'm in my dive as say 80, look over the the wall, and then look back and see my buddy at 100 and dropping I'm pretty confident I wouldn't be able to bring her to the surface. I would have attempted to get her attention and probably gone down a little deeper but I'm not chasing her below 100. I don't know how I'd react below 100 and would probably end up a second victim.

I'm reminded of ahpoolman's video where he saved the two kids from certain death. I would not have been able to do that. I currently don't have the rescue training nor the experience at that depth.

If being unable to recognize alleged incompetence in seconds and bring someone up from the deep means I'm a bad buddy, I guess I'm ok with that for now. Perhaps as you say rescue training would give me the tools to be able to react...but I'm not sure solely having the rescue card should be a benchmark to place someone into the good buddy category.

I think your intent was to state a buddy with proper training may have recognized early warning signs and been able to bring her to the surface.

...and now I'm off to see if there is an SSI centre in my area...

:beerchug:

[Sloth]

I hope no one in this thread really looks at tourist DMs as anything more then tour guides and sherpa. There is always a chance that you are getting a DM that is 50 dives out of OW. Unless you are fresh out of OW then the only thing of value you should expect from a DM is dive site information, boat procedures and where all the cool stuff underwater is. Sure you might get lucky and get a DM with 1000s of dives but I wouldn't count on it. I sure as hell am not going to assume the DM is going to keep me safe nor am I going to put blame on a DM when a diver does something incredibly stupid.

It's amazing the number of people in this thread that are faulting the DM on this fiasco. Seems to me that this lady did exactly what she wanted to do.

[onlyhalcyon]

First, let me say, it is great to have you posting here, since you were actually part of this dive.

I have so many questions I would love to ask. I tend to be more interested in Ms. Woods and her demeanor, mind set and motivations for her actions as has been described. Of course she is the only one who could shed light on the absolute truth. And we will never have that.

What do you conclude as you mull this over in your mind? Was she acting ?narced?, defiant against someone directing her in what to do? Or hell bent on descending willfully? Or just seeming confused? This part of the scenario just really is key to me in the puzzle of what occurred here.

Thanks for any insight you can shed,
Mary

Its hard to coment on Ms Wood's demeanor or state of mind since I didn't get a chance to talk wit her or even mix with her pre dive. I do recall seing her on the boardwalk leading to the boat around 20mins prior to boarding that morning. She was trying on wetsuits and getting a weight belt at that time. My wife and I both comented on the fact that she was by far the oldest person at Stuart Cove. A coment like ' I hope we are still diving at that age'. She was thin and moved around with ease. The most noticable thing that caught both of our attention was that she was wearing makeup, eyeliner blush etc. Given that even the cute young girls were with out make up it was noticable. The third time we noticed her was on board the boat during the dive breif. A DM was giving the usual boat orientation and just after they told us that the bin filled with water infront of the DM was for underwater cameras only Ms Wood came from the back fo the boat and tried to wash her mask in it. This lead to a quick one liner from the DM giving the speach and all of the divers paying attention laughed lightly. Ms Wood moved to the back of the boat and thats the last time I saw her until the incident.

As I watched the incident unfold, I would say that she didn't look narced, or out of control / in trouble. When I saw her decending I thought that (and at this point i did not know that it was a woman) she had maybe seen a shark. We had been told that Hammerhead sharks had been seen in the area only days before. Since my decision to dive in the Bahamas was to see sharks I had a heightned interest in what was happening and was paying close attention to the diver/depth and was looking ahead of her and below to see if I could see what I thought she was seeming to move toward. At that moment I thought Ms Wood was man because of the decision to leave the general depth of the group and decend below 100ft and while decending brush off the attempt of a buddy to make contact. She most definatly looked from where I was which was about 20ft above and about 15ft behind with very good viz that she was incontrol and heading somewhere.

It was shortly after this time that the urge to drop down and take charge of the situation was strongest. I was now about 30ft above Ms Wood and the DM , my wife was maybe 15ft / 18ft above me. I looked up at my wife in some kind of hope that she would give me an ok sign to do what I wanted to do, but she didn't. Instead I could see in her eyes that she was having a rough dive and looked stressed. I knew here ears were bothering her and we had now fallen behind the group and I was 95% focused on what was happening below instead of on her. My wife gave me the 'buddy sign' come up to her depth and closer, I looked down for a few more seconds and began to move up to my wifes depth. Looking back I still feel that if I had only followed my gut feeling to drop and take charge of the situation Ms Wood would have been brought to the surface I am 99% sure of that. I remember thinking the viz is good I am with in my skill level, I would have to be quick to catch her but I had plenty of air, I felt good and had seen most of what had happened prior and knew what I had to do and how I would do it. But I didn't.. I watched and as every second passed so did my chance to save a life. I keep telling myself that I did the right thing by staying with my buddy and more so that my buddy happened to be my wife, but in hind sight deep down I felt that my wife would be ok her issues weren't that serious more mental than life endangering, but what was happening below was very serious.

I think that covered most of what you were asking if not let me know and I will try to answer if I have the info.

I do have to say that I disagree with the last post that people who can't swim shouldn't dive. I myself am a terrible swimmer and found it very difficult to complete the swim required to passthe open water cert. I have never been a strong swimmer dispite working out regularly and being in very good shape I am not a confident swimmer at all, its just doesn't seem to be my thing. But under the water I feel comfortable and very relaxed. My wife on the other hand is a great swimmer and not as comfortable a diver as I am. I don't belive that swimming ability has anything at all to do with a persons potential to become a good diver.

[ItsBruce]

I started to explain my thoughts then decided I was not adequately clear in my own mind, so I abandoned the idea.

I will give the matter some thought and see if, with discussion, we can come up with a buddy protocol that we might submit to the certifying agencies for consideration as an official protocol or perhaps the beginnings of one.

This might be best discussed elsewhere.

I think I'm going to have to review some of the other threads and see if I can solidify my thoughts on being a buddy.

[Riger]

........ I keep telling myself that I did the right thing by staying with my buddy .......



I am convinced that any choice that you could make could have had negative impact in some way and a positive impact in another.

I am thankfull that I was not in your position on that day, however it is my opinion that based on the description of events, you made the correct choice.

As far as priorities go for an individual diver, I (you) must always be #1, your buddy #2 and everything else is a judgement call based on circumstance.

When I tried to imagine myself in your position, I would have to say I would have done the same thing.

If my buddy was not uncomfortable (your buddy was uncomfortable, as you described Instead I could see in her eyes that she was having a rough dive and looked stressed. I knew here ears were bothering her....) I would have instructed her to watch me as I went further down, perhaps got her to wait at 30m (100') as I went as far as 40m (130') ....... but that's about it, anything beyond that would be beyond my limits to fetch anybody other than my own children or spouse (I actually do not know how I would react to save my own family).

The Bottom Line is that you cannot beat yourself up for what happened or for how you could have reacted differently. You brought your buddy back from a stressful dive, that's a good thing.

Best Regards

Richard

[iztok]

Looking back I still feel that if I had only followed my gut feeling to drop and take charge of the situation Ms Wood would have been brought to the surface I am 99% sure of that.

Yes, you might have gotten Ms. Wood out but it could have cost you a life of your wife.

Your wife was distressed, she signaled you that she is not within the comfort zone and asked to buddy with her.

Where I come from family comes first and I would NOT risk it.

While you might not feel like it right now and are convinced that your decision cost Ms Wood's her life I think you did the right thing and should never doubt that (based on what you've wrote). You should move on. It seems it was Ms Wood's decision that cost her her life. Your primary responsibility is to your family and yourself and you did what you supposed to do, take care of it.

I can only imagine how you feel responsible and bit stressed out because you feel you didn't go after her. However just imagine the other way around. You go after her and there are two scenarios that were very real that could be worse.

1. Ms. Wood causes you to drown as well.

2. Your wife (who was your buddy at the time) panics and drowns while you are saving Ms Wood.

While less likely the above two could happen in such a situation. Could you live with #2 (obviously with #1 you were dead)? I couldn't.

Not saying that current situation wouldn't cause me few sleepless nights but you did the right thing and you had the priorities right!

[Ann Marie]

IMO Dive Masters wear many hats depending on the role that they happen to be fulfilling at that moment. A DM that is hired to lead a dive such as those in tropical waters have limited responsibility for the certified diver. They are there to provide supervision and dive management skills. Each diver needs to asses their own skills and determine if the planned dive is appropriate for them and their buddy. Let's not forget that based on statements made, the DM attempted to provide rescue skills but was unsuccessful. This DM also has a responsibility to himself and to the other divers.

I know it may sound harsh, but in OW training my students are taught and evaluated for the ability to ascend, drop their weights, the use of a power inflater, and the ability to kick. PADI recommends that a new diver without proper training dive no deeper than 60 feet.

There is a point when one has to draw the line between being able to respond to an emergency and to stop because you are putting yourself or others at risk. For each person, the line is different and we should not judge where it falls for another person.

For the diver that didn't leave his buddy/wife: I can understand your angst and am so sorry that you are having to question your actions. I think that you did the right thing in not leaving your buddy completely to try and assist. Your buddy was having problems. Even if it was just difficulty in clearing her ears it was still an issue. Most incidents start with a small problem being overlooked or ignored. I know that if I were on that dive, I would have questioned myself and shouldered some blame in not providing assistance. At some point, this diver should have assessed her own skills and made the decision on how she was going to execute this dive.

[bowlofpetunias]

There is a point when one has to draw the line between being able to respond to an emergency and to stop because you are putting yourself or others at risk. For each person, the line is different and we should not judge where it falls for another person.

For the diver that didn't leave his buddy/wife: I can understand your angst and am so sorry that you are having to question your actions. I think that you did the right thing in not leaving your buddy completely to try and assist. Your buddy was having problems. Even if it was just difficulty in clearing her ears it was still an issue. Most incidents start with a small problem being overlooked or ignored. I know that if I were on that dive, I would have questioned myself and shouldered some blame in not providing assistance. At some point, this diver should have assessed her own skills and made the decision on how she was going to execute this dive.

Brilliantly put!

[bowlofpetunias]

Here is a thought; In this thread we have been focusing on the DM as a buddy and the buddy made some apparently irrational decisions to venture into the depths (never mind what the DM should or should not have done for a moment).

What if this was an insta-buddy for you or I that on the surface (pun intended) appeared of sound mind and skill sets, had a few hundred dives and was for all appearances just like you and I but underwater ..... followed a profile like Mrs. Woods? What would the reasonable buddy be expected to do (assuming no specialist training)?

Best Regards

Richard

I am not sure that I would have recognized the diver as being in trouble from the description of the events. Had I been buddied with her I am not sure I would have done anything different from the DM. Try to get her attention.. try to get her to come up to the right depth. I would not have descended any deeper than I felt was safe.



I worked with Radha for over 6 years in Orinda. When she first spoke with me about diving I was very suprised she got certified without ever learning to swim! I did my best to convince her diving and not being able to swim was a deadly mixture. I am a DM myself and tried as I may I could not talk sense into her. I'm very sorry to hear about her accident, but it was bound to happen. I didn't hear about the stroke the month prior to the accident, but I do know she had one about a year and a half ago. Jayjones post #372 mentioned Radha's being, shall we say a little head strong, that's putting it mildly. Not to speak ill of the dead but she could be very pushy/rude and had definate opinions on things and didn't care about yours.
As a diver I'm sad to hear of the loss, it hurts us all. As a person, well that's a different story, shall I say, I have a definate opinion on that myself it's probably better I don't share openly.

Thank you for this very interesting insight into Mrs Woods personality. It seems consistent with the impression I have from comments within the posts here.

This is where I set my limits... Life is about Choices... People have a right to make choices about their actions and accept the consequences of those choices be they positive or negative. I have a right to make my Choices and no one has the right to take that right away because of THEIR Choices. I choose to safely dive within my training and ability. When I do a dive that may push my limits I control the risks by choosing my buddy carefully. Ultimately I am responsible to keep myself out of trouble or get myself out of it if the unexpected happens. I owe it to my family and loved ones to consider the impact of my actions on them and put their needs BEFORE others.

After working in the Ambulance Service for a few years I got a different perspective on life in general and heroes in particular. I have done things that others might consider heroic.. now I see them as foolish and selfish. My son had a right to have a mother. IMHO People who put their lives on the line with bad choices do not necessarily deserve the sacrifice of another person's life to save them from their consequences! Before you judge me or others, ask yourself if you have walked a path that qualifies you to do so.

(let the flaming begin)

[ScubaSteve]

I am not sure that I would have recognized the diver as being in trouble from the description of the events. Had I been buddied with her I am not sure I would have done anything different from the DM. Try to get her attention.. try to get her to come up to the right depth. I would not have descended any deeper than I felt was safe.

I do not think you are alone here.

........This is where I set my limits... Life is about Choices... People have a right to make choices about their actions and accept the consequences of those choices be they positive or negative. I have a right to make my Choices and no one has the right to take that right away because of THEIR Choices. I choose to safely dive within my training and ability. When I do a dive that may push my limits I control the risks by choosing my buddy carefully. Ultimately I am responsible to keep myself out of trouble or get myself out of it if the unexpected happens. I owe it to my family and loved ones to consider the impact of my actions on them and put their needs BEFORE others.

After working in the Ambulance Service for a few years I got a different perspective on life in general and heroes in particular. I have done things that others might consider heroic.. now I see them as foolish and selfish. My son had a right to have a mother. IMHO People who put their lives on the line with bad choices do not necessarily deserve the sacrifice of another person's life to save them from their consequences! Before you judge me or others, ask yourself if you have walked a path that qualifies you to do so.

(let the flaming begin)

:flame: (joking of course)

I personally think that that is the most well rounded outlook possible. Mine is the same. I personally would NEVER want anybody to get hurt (or worse) saving (or trying to) me from a bad decision.

I got into this sport because I love it. I am aware of the dangers as do my family and loved ones. I know my dive buddy loves it as much as I do and I would hope that my buddy would make a solid effort to save me if ever required. I would, however, rather they make a solid effort and fail (but surface safely themselves) than have them perish in the process as well.

I will treat every situation the same way. If ever called upoin, I plan on doing everything I can humanly do up until the point where I believe I am personally (or a loved one) is in real danger. I plan on being around to annoy my family with my scuba obsession for along time to come. There is but one things that will change that......Fate. When my time comes, I will stop. Otherwise, I will not do anything that I deem to be inviting death.

[Kksmama]

I think that covered most of what you were asking if not let me know and I will try to answer if I have the info.

I think you have done a tremendous service to the diving community by posting here. I'm sure it has been difficult (perhaps helpful also) to replay and rethink your actions that day. You are a good writer, and your poignant account has prompted me to do a lot of reflection - and commit to future training for myself and family. Other contributors to the thread have said the same thing, so I imagine that countless other divers will also be improving their skills and attitudes. Thanks to you.

Your posts have been so thorough and detailed that I can imagine my husband and I in the same situation. And I can imagine that in the aftermath we'd have some stuff to work through. We came upon a car accident once (drunk meets bicyclist) and our inability to help left us with a mixed bag of emotions. I hope you and your wife will use this tragedy to make your skills and relationship even stronger (they are demonstrably excellent now) for your future dives together, getting help if necessary. We'd love to dive with you sometime.

[Scubaon]

I do have to say that I disagree with the last post that people who can't swim shouldn't dive. I myself am a terrible swimmer and found it very difficult to complete the swim required to passthe open water cert. I have never been a strong swimmer dispite working out regularly and being in very good shape I am not a confident swimmer at all, its just doesn't seem to be my thing. But under the water I feel comfortable and very relaxed. My wife on the other hand is a great swimmer and not as comfortable a diver as I am. I don't belive that swimming ability has anything at all to do with a persons potential to become a good diver.[/QUOTE]

I respect your opinion on this, but honestly, speaking of a person that can not swim at all, don't you find their chances of drowning higher in an out of air emergency at surface than say a diver that can swim? They will be struggling with a no air issue and an inability to tread water at the same time. It just seems like a really bad idea to strap on a bunch of gear and weights and jump in the water if you can not swim a stroke. You then are totaly reliant on your gear to save your life and not your own abilities. Just thinking out loud. I'm sure there are countless divers out there that are poor swimmers at best, but they CAN swim if need be. I was speaking of a person that can not swim at all.

[LeadTurn_SD]

I do have to say that I disagree with the last post that people who can't swim shouldn't dive. I myself am a terrible swimmer and found it very difficult to complete the swim required to passthe open water cert. I have never been a strong swimmer dispite working out regularly and being in very good shape I am not a confident swimmer at all, its just doesn't seem to be my thing. But under the water I feel comfortable and very relaxed. My wife on the other hand is a great swimmer and not as comfortable a diver as I am. I don't belive that swimming ability has anything at all to do with a persons potential to become a good diver.

You can be a great diver and a poor swimmer, but not nearly as safe as a great diver who is also good swimmer.

I respect your opinion on this, but honestly, speaking of a person that can not swim at all, don't you find their chances of drowning higher in an out of air emergency at surface than say a diver that can swim? They will be struggling with a no air issue and an inability to tread water at the same time. It just seems like a really bad idea to strap on a bunch of gear and weights and jump in the water if you can not swim a stroke. You then are totaly reliant on your gear to save your life and not your own abilities. Just thinking out loud. I'm sure there are countless divers out there that are poor swimmers at best, but they CAN swim if need be. I was speaking of a person that can not swim at all.

Over the years, the swimming requirement in scuba training has been reduced significantly. Not eliminated, but reduced.

I do think this is a mistake, and although I have no proof, I feel this HAS contributed to diving accidents.

Being a weak swimmer or nearly a non-swimmer makes you ENTIRELY reliant on your equipment for survival in the water. This should not be the case (on the surface, that is :D ). If you are going to be in or around the water, you need to be able to swim well enough to save yourself, without equipment. If you fell overboard, could you tread water for awile in just your swimsuit, or would you need to be rescued? If you jumped in and had a BC malfunction and began having problems remaining at the surface, would you panic? If you surfaced far from your entry point, and had to swim or tread water for awhile, could you?

Rant mode off.

Best wishes.

[Web Monkey]

I've read this a couple of times today and it's bothered me each time I've read it. What this says to me is I wouldn't be a good buddy. I am quite sure I would not have immediately recognized she was incompetent or assumed she was incompetent...if that's what she actually was. If I'm in my dive as say 80, look over the the wall, and then look back and see my buddy at 100 and dropping I'm pretty confident I wouldn't be able to bring her to the surface.

This is where "buddy skills" and attention to details beat "macho rescue" every time.

If you plan the dive as, say a wall dive with a 70' max depth, and maintain good buddy contact (side by side), you would notice immediately if you were at 60' and your buddy (and alternate air source) was heading towards 70' and on towards 80'.

You might not do anything immediately, but it should certainly get your attention, especially, since you've now exceeded "useful buddy distance" (the distance you could easily get to if you were OOA and had just exhaled).

At this point, it's still easy to drop down a few feet, try to get your buddy's attention, then decide if any action is necessary.

The trick to a good rescue is to not have an emergency. At this point, what you have is a sign that something might be wrong. A little sign-language conversation would let you know if your buddy just wanted to look at a cool fish or was in the process of doing something really dumb, and you're still only at 70'-80'.

Once you let your buddy get a huge distance away from your either horizontally or vertically, you're into "superman" territory, and a rescue becomes significantly more difficult and dangerous or even impossible.


I'm reminded of ahpoolman's video where he saved the two kids from certain death. I would not have been able to do that. I currently don't have the rescue training nor the experience at that depth. Making more victims isn't a good idea. Another aspect of a good rescue is knowing your capabilities and limitations. If you know for certain that you can go grab someone and safely do what needs to be done, that's great! It's a whole different story than if they're at 110' and you've never been deeper than 60. Nobody wants a rescuer to commit suicide.


If being unable to recognize alleged incompetence in seconds and bring someone up from the deep means I'm a bad buddy, I guess I'm ok with that for now. Perhaps as you say rescue training would give me the tools to be able to react...but I'm not sure solely having the rescue card should be a benchmark to place someone into the good buddy category. Training is valuable. Cards aren't worth squat (unless someone requires a particular card to take you somewhere you want to go). The most valuable thing you can get out of rescue training is learning to see ahead in time. The guy with the new camera who isn't watching his air or depth is probably going to run out of both. The buddy who isn't paying attention to anybody is going to get separated. The diver @80' on a 60' dive might be having issues. The girl who looks like she's going to cry before getting into the water has a good chance of panicing if anything at all happens and will be going through air like a jet engine.


I think your intent was to state a buddy with proper training may have recognized early warning signs and been able to bring her to the surface.


Exactly.

Good training and attentiveness could have eliminated the entire chain of events.

...and now I'm off to see if there is an SSI centre in my area...Although I use and like SSI, it's only because I really like our LDS and they're affiliated with SSI. What you really need is a good instructor and a chance to do a bunch of diving. A Rescue class that runs most of the summer and includes lots of in-water time and practice scenarios would be great.

Terry

[scubadada]

You can be a great diver and a poor swimmer, but not nearly as safe as a great diver who is also good swimmer.



Over the years, the swimming requirement in scuba training has been reduced significantly. Not eliminated, but reduced.

I do think this is a mistake, and although I have no proof, I feel this HAS contributed to diving accidents.

Being a weak swimmer or nearly a non-swimmer makes you ENTIRELY reliant on your equipment for survival in the water. This should not be the case (on the surface, that is :D ). If you are going to be in or around the water, you need to be able to swim well enough to save yourself, without equipment. If you fell overboard, could you tread water for awile in just your swimsuit, or would you need to be rescued? If you jumped in and had a BC malfunction and began having problems remaining at the surface, would you panic? If you surfaced far from your entry point, and had to swim or tread water for awhile, could you?

Rant mode off.

Best wishes.

I must agree with LeadTurn_SD. Being a very weak swimmer or non-swimmer could be nothing but a significant liability. Being a strong swimmer has helped me immensely on numerous occasions. Tag line, wreck line, down line, dive in reasonable current is just one rather common example. It has also allowed me to assist others on numerous occasions, saving a dive or avoiding a more serious event. A weak or non-swimmer lacks the flexibility to effectively deal with a challenging situation for either themselves or others. Under ideal circumstances, diving is a piece of cake, under other circumstances, diving can be challenging for any of us. A strong, confident swimmer may welcome those challenges as an opportunity for experience and improvement.

Good diving, Craig

[Thalassamania]

You can learn to dive and not be able to swim. Let's put that concept aside for a moment.

Swim tests are an abstracted measure of your comfort in the water. Strong swimmers are rarely uncomfortable in the water or apprehensive about water activities and it much more likely that weak swimmers are uncomfortable in the water or apprehensive about water activities. These are not perfect measures and I have know rare individuals who defied both stereotypes.

People who are comfortable in the water are easier to teach to dive and all diver training schemes that I am familiar with (except for HSA's) are predicated on the idea that the student is fairly comfortable in the water.

If I were to have to train a non-swimmer or weak swimmer I would, in all good conscience, have to both equip and train them differently than I do adequate swimmers. Suddenly just being confident in ones ability to get to the surface in a crisis is not the solution, it becomes more a question of being confident of not having to ever do so, or (at worst) being confident that if you had to, you could stay alive there. Training becomes much more equipment dependent and equipment intensive, and lots of good things like heightened SA and incident avoidance are brought to the fore. All systems become redundant, redundant systems become triply so, lots of time gets added to the class and these non-swimmers or weak swimmers probably turn into much better divers than your run-of-the mill resort trained tourist diver.

But if you try and force a round peg into a square hole and teach a non-swimmer or weak swimmer to dive without making substantial changes to the typical training program to accommodate them you're doing everyone an injustice.

[bsee65]

IMO Dive Masters wear many hats depending on the role that they happen to be fulfilling at that moment. A DM that is hired to lead a dive such as those in tropical waters have limited responsibility for the certified diver. They are there to provide supervision and dive management skills. Each diver needs to asses their own skills and determine if the planned dive is appropriate for them and their buddy. Let's not forget that based on statements made, the DM attempted to provide rescue skills but was unsuccessful. This DM also has a responsibility to himself and to the other divers.

I know it may sound harsh, but in OW training my students are taught and evaluated for the ability to ascend, drop their weights, the use of a power inflater, and the ability to kick. PADI recommends that a new diver without proper training dive no deeper than 60 feet.

There is a point when one has to draw the line between being able to respond to an emergency and to stop because you are putting yourself or others at risk. For each person, the line is different and we should not judge where it falls for another person.

Clearly, you are either not referring to this incident or you haven't read much about it. The DM in this case was female and specifically hired as a buddy for the victim rather than to perform traditional guide service. As such, your comments and perspective seem misguided relative to this incident. If she wasn't prepared or capable of performing this task at a professional level, she shouldn't have accepted the contract to do so.

[Thalassamania]

... For each person, the line is different and we should not judge where it falls for another person.Unless, of course, they hire out for a function that they fail to provide.

[bsee65]

I hope no one in this thread really looks at tourist DMs as anything more then tour guides and sherpa. There is always a chance that you are getting a DM that is 50 dives out of OW. Unless you are fresh out of OW then the only thing of value you should expect from a DM is dive site information, boat procedures and where all the cool stuff underwater is. Sure you might get lucky and get a DM with 1000s of dives but I wouldn't count on it. I sure as hell am not going to assume the DM is going to keep me safe nor am I going to put blame on a DM when a diver does something incredibly stupid.

It's amazing the number of people in this thread that are faulting the DM on this fiasco. Seems to me that this lady did exactly what she wanted to do.

We don't know what the lady wanted to do, only what she did. With very limited underwater communication, we have no real knowledge of the state of mind of the victim during this episode, or even if she was in conscious control of her actions at the time. Again, this particular dive professional was hired as a buddy for a diver who, for whatever reason, was deemed to require a professional diver as a buddy. The responsibilities of a professional diver acting in this role have to differ from what is expected of a DM acting as a guide.

[Grover48]

The DM was hired to be a buddy to the missing woman. That carries responsibilities. No punishment for failure to perform, but the responsibilities are there.

The DM surfaced and then went to be by herself, it has been stated she was in shock. OK, now what? She cannot handle the stress of seeing a diver lost and still perform as a DM. It's time to do a gut check and stop being a DM. She did not aggressively pursue the victim, it seems she was "waved off" and stopped. Not good in a rescue scenario. She has now demonstrated she cannot handle the job, and furthermore, when she got to the surface she did not function in an acceptable, professional manner. Time to hang up the DM cap.

[RMDiver]

The DM was hired to be a buddy to the missing woman. That carries responsibilities. No punishment for failure to perform, but the responsibilities are there.

The DM surfaced and then went to be by herself, it has been stated she was in shock. OK, now what? She cannot handle the stress of seeing a diver lost and still perform as a DM. It's time to do a gut check and stop being a DM. She did not aggressively pursue the victim, it seems she was "waved off" and stopped. Not good in a rescue scenario. She has now demonstrated she cannot handle the job, and furthermore, when she got to the surface she did not function in an acceptable, professional manner. Time to hang up the DM cap.

Harsh, but accurate.

[Andy077]

The DM was hired to be a buddy to the missing woman. That carries responsibilities. No punishment for failure to perform, but the responsibilities are there.

The DM surfaced and then went to be by herself, it has been stated she was in shock. OK, now what? She cannot handle the stress of seeing a diver lost and still perform as a DM. It's time to do a gut check and stop being a DM. She did not aggressively pursue the victim, it seems she was "waved off" and stopped. Not good in a rescue scenario. She has now demonstrated she cannot handle the job, and furthermore, when she got to the surface she did not function in an acceptable, professional manner. Time to hang up the DM cap.

I've seen much the same in the fire service, you have people with lots of state courses, entitling them to be called instructor, or "qualified" to be an officer, and frankly, they just don't have it. The mental and emotional ability to react correctly under actual emergency stress conditions are so different than anything you might learn in a controlled course as to make the course nearly meaningless. Unfortunately, this type of person believes that because they did the classwork to make them a DM, or fire officer, or whatever, that they know everything and believe that they will react to any situation correctly.

[Grover48]

My son works for the US Forest Service in fire. He is a certified EMT. He took the test and was on the list to become a fireman for the same fire department I work for. His crew was returning from a fire and came upon an accident involving 3 cars. He was tending to a 15 year old boy who died in his arms. We talked about the incident and his reaction. He decided to stay in wildland fire fighting and not accept the position with a municipal department because of his reaction to death and injuries.

He was man enough to know his limitations. We should all do the same.

[stadevene]

He was man enough to know his limitations. We should all do the same.

You make a very good point. All the training and simulation in the world can't truly prepare you for the real thing. There are some here who know they could take charge of the situation because of prior experience, some who think they could, and those of us who know we couldn't because we're not ready.

It took an incident for your son to realize he wasn't cut out for certain situations and perhaps now the DM has realized the same and if she chooses a diving career can attempt to insulate herself from these situations in the future. Perhaps some in the group who think they could have rescued would find, like the DM, they were unable to. I think it's just a bad situation all around for everyone involved.

Here's hoping when the dive investigation is complete we'll all have as complete a picture on what happened and can take any recommendations to heart.

[rhone]

Looking back I still feel that if I had only followed my gut feeling to drop and take charge of the situation Ms Wood would have been brought to the surface I am 99% sure of that. ........

........I keep telling myself that I did the right thing by staying with my buddy and more so that my buddy happened to be my wife, but in hind sight deep down I felt that my wife would be ok her issues weren't that serious more mental than life endangering, but what was happening below was very serious.

I can't help imagining that you're beating yourself up over this and feeling quite poorly about it, and, despite not asking for it, I think you need to hear this: YOU DID THE RIGHT THING.

At that moment, you neither had all of the information that is now coming to light nor were you able to act upon the benefit of hindsight during the actual event. For all you knew, going down might have caused a panic-induced event for your wife.

Comfort yourself by knowing that had you indeed known the facts you would have helped. You might have had a feeling something was happening, but by not actually knowing, you did the right thing by taking care of your buddy (wife). Life can end very quickly, without much fanfare or warning, that I learned during combat operations in Iraq, and without fail, there are countless permutations of "what if"; ultimately, none of them are very helpful.

[Web Monkey]

It was shortly after this time that the urge to drop down and take charge of the situation was strongest. I was now about 30ft above Ms Wood and the DM , my wife was maybe 15ft / 18ft above me. I looked up at my wife in some kind of hope that she would give me an ok sign to do what I wanted to do, but she didn't. Instead I could see in her eyes that she was having a rough dive and looked stressed.
. . .
Looking back I still feel that if I had only followed my gut feeling to drop and take charge of the situation Ms Wood would have been brought to the surface I am 99% sure of that. I remember thinking the viz is good I am with in my skill level, I would have to be quick to catch her but I had plenty of air, I felt good and had seen most of what had happened prior and knew what I had to do and how I would do it.

Don't beat yourself up over this. It's completely situational.

I know that if I was diving with my regular buddy that we could have dragged Mrs. Woods back to the surface with or without her cooperation and afterwards been happy for the "practice."

However, if my buddy was anybody who has limited comfort in the water or possibly marginal skills, there's absolutely no way I'd even consider it. If you think you feel like **** now, think how you would feel if you went after Mrs. Woods and came back to find that your wife had run OOA and drowned.

A rescue is only good if you're reasonably certain that you can pull it off without creating more victims.

The bigger point is that Mrs. Woods hired a DM as her personal buddy and you should not have found the need to get involved at all.

Terry

[LeadTurn_SD]

1+ for what Web Monkey said.

onlyhalcyon: From what I've read, you reacted really well to a totally unexpected and very confusing situation.

You had no way of knowing what was really going on, and even though your gut instinct was that something looked wrong, there was no way for you to know what the outcome was going to be. As Web Monkey said, leaving your wife alone while you tried to assist could have been a very dangerous choice.

I know it can't be easy, but you made the right decision in that moment. Please do not try to second guess yourself now.

Best wishes.

[Andy077]

My son works for the US Forest Service in fire. He is a certified EMT. He took the test and was on the list to become a fireman for the same fire department I work for. His crew was returning from a fire and came upon an accident involving 3 cars. He was tending to a 15 year old boy who died in his arms. We talked about the incident and his reaction. He decided to stay in wildland fire fighting and not accept the position with a municipal department because of his reaction to death and injuries.

He was man enough to know his limitations. We should all do the same.

Forest service fire is no joke either, I prefer having my water supplied by the Big Red Truck, and not carry it in on my back. I've seen things on the roads in the 15 years I've been doing this to make most people sick, but I have reservations about hiking into a wildfire, so good for your son!

[cruiser]

If anyone is interested in Radha's obituary, I have posted it here:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/passings/293588-radha-wood-obituary.html#post4547687

[bowlofpetunias]

Grover Not sure one incident is a good enough measure in most cases. Kids always get to you! I've seen experienced Paramedics have trouble with one call but be brilliant in the calls before and after on the same shift. You seem like a pretty cluey guy and know your son tho so I can't armchair quarterback that one. Congrats on raising an asset to the community.

Those who are talking about the DM "isolating herself" after she got on the boat. Here is what is going on in my mind... perhaps onlyhalcyon can tell me if he thinks I am off base on my assumptions in this case.

The DM indicated to him to advise the other DM's of the missing diver. When onlyhalcoyon went back to his buddy (as WAS HIS DUTY) the original DM did not leave the site. After that he can not say what the DM did or DID NOT do. Since the DM in question was second last to surface and this was some time AFTER onlyhalcoyon surfaced I am assuming that she continued her search for her missing diver even tho it was ineffectvie /unsuccessful. I am also assuming that when she saw the diver she had "assigned" to relay the information was already on the boat she probably believed the search had already been arranged.

When I worked in the Emergency Services I saw many occassion where a Paramedic/fireman/policeman/nurse/doctor handled a nasty situation then needed to "isolate themselves" to pull themselves together before they could get back to business. Since there were other DM's on board and she has already been unsucessful in getting her buddy to the surface I don't think it is unreasonable for her to take her isolation time. Had there been no one else taking over I would also be very criticle.

[Michael Folise]

MEG DIVER: Please use punctuation. I can't follow your posts!

[bsee65]

MEG DIVER: Please use punctuation. I can't follow your posts!

You're kidding, right? You start reading this thread and all you can find to comment on is the writing style of someone who gave us good info weeks ago? If you had read another page or two, you'd have seen other helpful suggestions, just like yours, posted and responded to.

[ItsBruce]

2 more cents from Bruce:

Having an urge to do something, like attempt a macho rescue, and doing the Right Thing, like staying with your buddy, are two completely different things. That one can resist an urge and can do the Right Thing, is a sign of maturity and competence and other favorable traits.

[onlyhalcyon]

I was reading through alot of the posts since obviously this event is on my mind a lot, and I keep reading that the DM with Ms Wood was hired to buddy with with her. I feel that this is not entirely true. From what I learend after the dive the DM was asked to buddy with Ms Wood but was not on a specific contract with extra payment. She was one of or DM's that day and obviously buddied with Ms Wood but I think to use the word hired implies that she agreed to give Ms Wood special attention and that she was at risk with out her own personal DM. I don't even think Stuart Cove offer this service.

My wife and I were talking over what she had read in response to my posts since we havn't really talked alot about what I wanted to do but didn't. Sure we have talked about the general facts of the dive etc but I kind of held back on my thoughts and feelings relating to the urge to leave her and take charge of what was happening. after reading the posts bashing the DM for not stepping up I find it strange that no one has ever mentioned her husband? He was in fact diving with us that morning and new far more about her than anyone. If she had indeed had a stoke he would have know how serious and to what level of supervision she would require, if she should have been diving at all? Thats like giving a mechanic the keys to your car knowing the brakes may fail but not telling him and blaming him for crashing your car. (im in the car biz so its the best I could come up with) Ms Wood was in a group of 3, her husband and a freind of her husbands, but you have to ask yourself what diver in their right mind would let his wife dive and not be behind her keeping and eye on her.? Given all that he knew that had happend prior to that morning! My wife told me that she didn't feel 100% that morning and I focused on every movement she made that dive. Even though she kept giving me the OK signal I knew she was having a stressful dive. To bash the DM who had far less understanding of Ms Wood just doesn't seem right.

Don't get me wrong before this dive I held resort DM up high and thought that they would make sure nothing bad happened on the dive, but it is obviously not true and after great thought its not really fair to hold them accountable when things go wrong.
Every diver should make every effort to ensure their own safety, if you don't have the skills get them, if your buddy drifts to far away follow them don't expect them to chase you, its YOUR life line incase things go wrong.

[cappyjon431]

Sure we have talked about the general facts of the dive etc but I kind of held back on my thoughts and feelings relating to the urge to leave her and take charge of what was happening. after reading the posts bashing the DM for not stepping up I find it strange that no one has ever mentioned her husband? He was in fact diving with us that morning and new far more about her than anyone. If she had indeed had a stoke he would have know how serious and to what level of supervision she would require, if she should have been diving at all? Thats like giving a mechanic the keys to your car knowing the brakes may fail but not telling him and blaming him for crashing your car. (im in the car biz so its the best I could come up with) Ms Wood was in a group of 3, her husband and a freind of her husbands, but you have to ask yourself what diver in their right mind would let his wife dive and not be behind her keeping and eye on her.? Given all that he knew that had happend prior to that morning!

A very legitimate question, one that has not been discussed on this board (except for a very brief/vague mention of life insurance policies early in the thread). I wonder if her "strong personality" (as mentioned earlier in the thread) offset any concerns her husband may have had. I realize that this would just add further conjecture to the discussion, but I am curious as to the husband's role in the incident.

[rhone]

but you have to ask yourself what diver in their right mind would let his wife dive and not be behind her keeping and eye on her.?

A lot of married people I know don't dive with each other all of the time for this precise reason (the overly protective instinct that presumptively inspired your quotation)...one spouse or the other gets too consumed with watching out for the other one that he/she doesn't enjoy the dive. I know that I'm this way in many respects. I love diving with my wife, but when I do, I watch her with an eagle eye, almost distractingly so. If I know and trust someone else's ability, I'm happy to have her buddy with him/her and I with someone else. Again, though, it has to be someone we know, so we never do this while traveling, but I could see how one would, especially if traveling with a third.

This further illustrates to me an issue highlighted by this thread: one should not take as a given that resort DMs are great divers/buddies. They certainly may be, and usually are, but due diligence is required.

[Web Monkey]

Even though she kept giving me the OK signal I knew she was having a stressful dive. To bash the DM who had far less understanding of Ms Wood just doesn't seem right.

If the DM was leading a dozen people around on a tour, I'd agree that there's no way the DM would even know anything was wrong until the boat count came up short.

However, if a single diver hires a professional as a buddy, the minimum expectation would be that the diver has hired a very competent buddy.

A very competent buddy will not let the other diver simply head off into the deep blue yonder when it's not part of the plan.

Terry

[LeadTurn_SD]

Again, 1+ what Terry said.

It is possible for someone to "wander off" if they really work at it when a DM is guiding a large group.

It should be impossible for this to happen if the DM is hired as your personal buddy, assuming the DM is doing their job.

Best wishes.

[bsee65]

What onlyhalcion is saying is that he believes that the DM wasn't specifically hired as a buddy to Mrs. Wood, but rather just served that role because she didn't otherwise have a buddy. That is in slight contradiction with an earlier post by one of the people present that said the boat had to delay departure while the DM was hired to buddy with Mrs. Wood.

In any case, there was a pro diver acting as buddy to the victim. If anyone should know enough to find out a little bit about their buddy's skills and intentions, it should be a pro diver. That pro buddy, hired as a guardian or not, should have recognized that something was wrong with her buddy and acted more decisively.

There was talk a few days ago about a young/new fireman deciding the job wasn't for him when he ran into a child victim. Thus seems like the type of event that would have the DM questioning whether this is the job for her. I can't imagine the DM walking away from this and not feeling that she bears significant responsibility for the death of this victim. If that doesn't get you thinking, I don't know what does. Seeing death is one thing, but knowing that you failed to prevent it when you could have is quite another.

As far as the husband goes, it was reported that he was diving with his own buddy separate from his wife. I can understand how some may feel he had some responsibility before the dive to discourage her participation or to inform the dive op of her condition, but that's only a factor if he knew she was at risk. Once they were in the water, he may as well have been 1000 miles away in terms of his involvement in this issue.

[ItsBruce]

... Don't get me wrong before this dive I held resort DM up high and thought that they would make sure nothing bad happened on the dive, but it is obviously not true and after great thought its not really fair to hold them accountable when things go wrong. ...

In my experience, resort DMs are pretty good at making sure nothing bad happens. But that does not mean that they guarantee that nothing bad will happen.

What is the joke about being unable to make anything idiot-proof because the idiots are so ingenious?

A resort DM can probably keep most routine bad things from happening, but a diver dead set on screwing up will probably be able to circumvent most DMs' best efforts. (Most does not mean the most highly trained team divers or those who will undertake MACHO rescue efforts.)

[Tricia]

I've been following this post from the beginning and I know there's been a lot of speculation about WHY Mrs. Wood took off like that and shook off/fought/argued with the DM who wanted her to come back up. Given her "strong personality" (as described by several who knew her), I'm now wondering if she didn't actually see something (a shark, manta, etc.) and decide to go chase it and didn't realise how deep she was going? I mean, most of us have done that at one time or another (especially photogs like me): suddenly you check your air and depth and think "Oh *****! How did I do that?" And then you have to start ascending carefully.

Now once Mrs. Wood had her "encounter" with the DM, it's clear she must have had a good idea how deep she was. But given her forceful personality, I can just imagine her saying to herself, "Oh I can go a little deeper - I've got plenty of air. And I really want to see that shark!" (I say this because I've dived with women like this before.)

Of course, as Bowl of Petunias has so correctly pointed out, we have no idea what all the pressure would have done to her rational thinking processes. And that's because nobody has ever done a study of scuba diving type pressures on a human post stroke/"cerebral incident" (as they call it here in France). But I suppose that's because most doctors would never advise you to dive after something like that.

Lastly - thanks again to OnlyHalcyon for being brave enough to come back on here and talk with us some more. You have answered a lot of tough questions (and put up with flak from silly people). I admire your courage! :)

Trish

[cruiser]

...after reading the posts bashing the DM for not stepping up I find it strange that no one has ever mentioned her husband? He was in fact diving with us that morning and new far more about her than anyone. If she had indeed had a stoke he would have know how serious and to what level of supervision she would require, if she should have been diving at all?

It's making a big assumption that MR. Wood would know what level of supervision MS. Wood required. Was he a doctor or medical professional? She had had a stroke just a month before, so this whole "dealing with a stroke victim" may have been new to him as well, and he just didn't have the skill set to know what to do.

Not to mention MS. Wood sounds like she had a strong personality and it may not have been up to MR. Wood whether or not MS. Wood dove that day.

...but you have to ask yourself what diver in their right mind would let his wife dive and not be behind her keeping and eye on her.?

I can think of a few instances where divers felt their wives were safer buddying with a dive master rather than themselves, especially if they didn't have much dive experience. Do we know how much dive experience MR. Wood had? No doubt MR. Wood felt MS. Wood was in good hands since she was with a dive master.

And did you notice how the Wood's interacted with each other on the boat? Sometimes when there's tension between a couple, whether long term or somebody just got PO'ed that morning, it's not always best to dive together. Her stroke could have also caused a personality change in the last month, something that takes the spouse awhile to deal with and learn how to handle.

Just my $.02

[Jim Lapenta]

The more that comes out of this the more it looks like it was an intentional act on the victims part. I keep hearing the music from MASH playing- "Suicide is Painless".

[Web Monkey]

A resort DM can probably keep most routine bad things from happening, but a diver dead set on screwing up will probably be able to circumvent most DMs' best efforts. (Most does not mean the most highly trained team divers or those who will undertake MACHO rescue efforts.)

I know this keeps going in circles, but it really bothers me that the concept of "buddy" has become so watered down that mere competence is now seen as "highly trained" or "macho".

Although my buddy and I are both DiveCons, saving Mrs. Woods wouldn't take anything more than what is taught in a recreational rescue class. According to what we currently know, turning a fatality into an annoyance would have required:


Mrs. Woods: Blows the dive plan by 10' - 20'.
Buddy: Points to Mrs. Woods depth gauge and signals "level off"
Mrs. Woods: Flips off/ignores/pushes away buddy and continues descending
Buddy: Decides Mrs. Woods is mentally compromised (blew the dive plan, ignored buddy), grabs her tank valve from behind, and does a safe ascent to the surface.

None of this requires "highly trained" or "macho" or even a DM cert. It only requires a minimal amount of training past OW, enough assertiveness to know you're doing the right thing, and concern for the safety of the other buddy.

Terry

[Thalassamania]

There was a time when being a certified diver meant that you were competent to do that, but today it falls into a realm beyond what may be reasonable expected of the average dive instructor?

[Web Monkey]

There was a time when being a certified diver meant that you were competent to do that, but today it falls into a realm beyond what may be reasonable expected of the average dive instructor?

That's just sad.

Terry

[TheScubaBOB]

There was a time when being a certified diver meant that you were competent to do that, but today it falls into a realm beyond what may be reasonable expected of the average dive instructor?

That is something that I have been pondering as my oldest daughter completed her OW on July 3rd. For the most part I will be her primary Dive Buddy.

I'm confident that I will be able to ensure that she always returns to the surface after every dive. I'm Rescue Certified and have noticed that since the class I've become more aware of my dive buddies and my own gear/situation underwater.

The Instructor who finished her training was diving with us the weekend. He approached me after one of her Adventure Dives and asked if I was okay with him giving her a mini "Intro to Rescue" on the surface. Of course I agreed.

He had her simulate towing me to the shore and removing both our gear (no rescue breaths, just the tow) and reviewed a couple of options with her after asking her a "What should you do now?" type of question.

Now she's much smaller than I am at 5ft 2ish & 130lbs (I'm a whopping 6ft 3 gorilla weighing in at 240ish).

She's already completed 4 of the 5 Adventure Dives needed for AOW so I'm thinking of maybe getting her through Rescue this summer.

FWIW, if she had a problem at depth there is nothing that would keep me from bringing my baby back to the surface. I'm so glad I did Rescue before she completed her OW.

[cruiser]

There was a time when being a certified diver meant that you were competent to do that, but today it falls into a realm beyond what may be reasonable expected of the average dive instructor?

1979 I took the PADI scuba class. Aced the academics (there were lots of academics taught) and pool sessions. During open water checkout, had ear problems (couldn't equalize due to chronic sinus issues) and didn't complete certification.

...fast forward after marriage and raising a family...

Took open water and got certified in 2006. World of difference in what was taught. I drew alot on the 1979 info I learned, and still do.

[ScubaSteve]

1979 I took the PADI scuba class. Aced the academics (there were lots of academics taught) and pool sessions. During open water checkout, had ear problems (couldn't equalize due to chronic sinus issues) and didn't complete certification.

...fast forward after marriage and raising a family...

Took open water and got certified in 2006. World of difference in what was taught. I drew alot on the 1979 info I learned, and still do.


So are you saying you had the same problems but they certified you anyways?

[N2BLUE]

Wow...that's really all I can say in awe of some of the pearls of wisdom and insight offered up by some of you, "divers". Wow...

[mikerault]

N2BLUE,

I assume you are being sarcastic. What exactly is your take on the accident as stated and the roll the DM should or should not have taken? Since you list yourself as an Instructor I personally would love to hear your opinions.

Mike

[cruiser]

So are you saying you had the same problems but they certified you anyways?

When I got certified in 2006, I no longer had sinus problems (which is what kept me from getting certified in 1979).

[cappyjon431]

The more that comes out of this the more it looks like it was an intentional act on the victims part. I keep hearing the music from MASH playing- "Suicide is Painless".


Watch what you write Jim, there are those on this board who will bash you for speculating on such possibilities (see the responses to my initial post on page 6). While I agree with you, I am willing to admit that it is only a possibility, and we might not ever know the entire story.

[Thalassamania]

It's also possible that the someone (CIA, FBI, KGB, MI-5, aliens?) took control of her brain because she couldn't wear her aluminum foil hat while diving, and there appears to be about as much evidence to support this possibility.

[InTheDrink]

Surely you're all missing the point. Training standards are what they are. That is life now. Change it or accept it. Lower standards are required these days. Bummer but that's how it is and I fail to see how that's going to change.

Within the training standards of today I don't think that the DM reacted inappropriately. As I have said before, she maybe didn't react 'heroically' like some here would have (and by heroically I mean outside of her training and risking her own life).

I also still have major reservations about whether any of you would take me to the surface if I didn't want you to. That's not macho, that's just fact. If a diver is cognisant, and doesn't want you to, it's not so easy to get behind them.

You're all infinitely more experienced than me but I'd be happy to wager a couple of quid on it.

J

[mikerault]

I don't know about that. I managed to do it everytime I needed to in rescue class with an active, watching and not really panicing or otherwise impared DM candidate. DMs are required to have rescue certifications and several others as well. It should not have been beyond her training.

[Thalassamania]

... Within the training standards of today I don't think that the DM reacted inappropriately. As I have said before, she maybe didn't react 'heroically' like some here would have (and by heroically I mean outside of her training and risking her own life).
I guess I fail to see how a modicum of SA, combined with a right hand rip on a valve, and a left hand grip on an inflator, could possibly be considered heroic and death defying.

I also still have major reservations about whether any of you would take me to the surface if I didn't want you to. That's not macho, that's just fact. If a diver is cognisant, and doesn't want you to, it's not so easy to get behind them.

You're all infinitely more experienced than me but I'd be happy to wager a couple of quid on it.
Trust me ... you'd wind up a few quid lighter.:D

The real issue here, to my way of thinking, has more to do with the lack of SA that permitted the situation to develop about which we are debating proper responses to, not the responses themselves.
[QUOTE=InTheDrink;4554824]

[Web Monkey]

Surely you're all missing the point. Training standards are what they are. That is life now. Change it or accept it. Lower standards are required these days. Bummer but that's how it is and I fail to see how that's going to change.

Within the training standards of today I don't think that the DM reacted inappropriately. As I have said before, she maybe didn't react 'heroically' like some here would have (and by heroically I mean outside of her training and risking her own life).

I don't have PADI's training standards, but I'm pretty sure their DM cert requires the skills needed to bring a diver to the surface.



I also still have major reservations about whether any of you would take me to the surface if I didn't want you to. That's not macho, that's just fact. If a diver is cognisant, and doesn't want you to, it's not so easy to get behind them.

You're all infinitely more experienced than me but I'd be happy to wager a couple of quid on it.JThat's nice, but we're not talking about you, we're talking about a 68 year old woman who apparently had a recent stroke.

Terry

[cappyjon431]

It's also possible that the someone (CIA, FBI, KGB, MI-5, aliens?) took control of her brain because she couldn't wear her aluminum foil hat while diving, and there appears to be about as much evidence to support this possibility.

Thal, do you honestly believe "there appears to be about as much evidence to support this possibility"? I understand your point, that it is all speculation , but to say that ALL possibilities are within the same realm does not seem intellectually honest.

[N2BLUE]

N2BLUE,

I assume you are being sarcastic. What exactly is your take on the accident as stated and the roll the DM should or should not have taken? Since you list yourself as an Instructor I personally would love to hear your opinions.

Mike

I feel we can learn from this tragic incident as FACTS are known...my take is that many divers feel they need not assume liability for their dive. A DM does not mitigate all the inherent dangers involved with SCUBA. As a LEO, many years on SWAT taught me one thing I carry over as an Instructor/DM..."I can save you from the Boogie Man and all the evils of the world, but I CANNOT protect you from your own damn stupidity!" I have had more 'divers' run out of air, roll hard deco, or just plain hit the 'Oh **** Switch', and everytime I intervened and they lived to I'm sure do it to another unsuspecting DM. I would hope that a sobering, "Hey guys, as divers we need to respect this sport and learn from this incident" would be in order. Instead, let's point fingers and blame someone so we all go back to being lazy and make our safety someone elses responsibility.

[Thalassamania]

Thal, do you honestly believe "there appears to be about as much evidence to support this possibility"? I understand your point, that it is all speculation , but to say that ALL possibilities are within the same realm does not seem intellectually honest.Yes, I'm being sarcastic ... but the point remains that suicide or lack of an aluminum foil hat are both speculation with no actual evidence to support either theory.
I feel we can learn from this tragic incident as FACTS are known...my take is that many divers feel they need not assume liability for their dive. A DM does not mitigate all the inherent dangers involved with SCUBA. As a LEO, many years on SWAT taught me one thing I carry over as an Instructor/DM..."I can save you from the Boogie Man and all the evils of the world, but I CANNOT protect you from your own damn stupidity!" I have had more 'divers' run out of air, roll hard deco, or just plain hit the 'Oh **** Switch', and everytime I intervened and they lived to I'm sure do it to another unsuspecting DM. I would hope that a sobering, "Hey guys, as divers we need to respect this sport and learn from this incident" would be in order. Instead, let's point fingers and blame someone so we all go back to being lazy and make our safety someone elses responsibility.I've always felt that the need to engage in any sort of diving leadership heroics is virtually an admission of failure to be an effective diving leader who is intuitive enough and effective enough to deal with problems before they become a crisis. Just tossing off the idea that a hired pro should not have those capabilities is just more Ann Rand claptrap. We all hire people to protect us from our own stupidity everyday and in many ways.

[InTheDrink]

I don't have PADI's training standards, but I'm pretty sure their DM cert requires the skills needed to bring a diver to the surface.


That's nice, but we're not talking about you, we're talking about a 68 year old woman who apparently had a recent stroke.

Terry

I'll leave it after this. Terry, I have enormous respect for pretty much all your posts and I really mean that - you seem consistently sane :) in addition to knowing your stuff.

But I don't think you can compare bringing a distressed or unconscious diver to the surface to a diver that is willfully defying such. Happy to be educated on why I'm wrong.

If I was trying to descend in defiance of someone else, and compus mentus, I think it would be rather difficult to do so. I tuck my inflator hose inside my chest strap so you'd struggle to grab it. You'd also struggle to get behind me. In the same way one keeps orientation towards facing a shark, you would simply do the same with a diver trying to get behind you.

In any event, faced with such circumstances I simply think it is beyond a reasonable ask to look for a DM as currently trained to go too far beyond their training. I am not condoning this - much the opposite, I rue the current training standards but if someone is working within those standards and training then I think it's harsh to fault them. As far as I am aware there are no courses that deal with a wilful diver trying not to be rescued. Yes, panicing divers doing their best to not be rescued but there is a subtle but important difference - one is not in control, the other is.

Again, as I mentioned earlier, my biggest quibble was the DM letting the diver get so far separated below her. This, IMO, was the problem or failing.

Anyhow, am done, sorry for harping on.

Tho Thal. I'll take that couple of quid off you next time I'm FL :)

J

[mikerault]

Most BCs and wings have dump valves that are reachable and have a greater capacity than the fill (usually) Besides the the fill just screw off...:) Disable their ability to fill or deflate and take them up with your bouyancy.

[InTheDrink]

Best of luck with that. That wouldn't be hindered by kicking fins or active resistance would it?

And remind me, what course is that in?

[InTheDrink]

Most BCs and wings have dump valves that are reachable and have a greater capacity than the fill (usually) Besides the the fill just screw off...:) Disable their ability to fill or deflate and take them up with your bouyancy.

Point I'm trying to make, and clearly failing, is that this isn't an event to draw too many lessons from. I truly believe this woman was intent on a dangerous course of action that she knew to be so.

Existing training, as far as I'm aware (and this is limited), doesn't cover this scenario. So one can't go too hard on the individual. Yes, you can rail against the training, but that is something different entirely than laying the blame on the DM. Either I'm missing something or some of you more experienced guys should be a little more understanding and considerate for the DM involved. You will know from my posts on the Cayman Islands that I don't have ANY sympathy for DMs that knowingly take their charges outside of their abilities and I have a personal feeling for new divers and the care that needs to be afforded to them. This incident doesn't fall inside any of these categories in my view.

J

[BonaireDan]

I follow this thread with great interest. With 35 years of dental, medical, forensic and CSI practice behind me I can say with certainty this one thing:

If someone wants to pursue an action (like descending or other harmful activities), NO ONE, not even the best trained, most well intentioned person, may be able to stop that harmful action.

I would not point fingers at others involved in this unfortunate situation. I am sure all was done that was possible from what I have read.

If someone's poor judgement led up to this event that is another issue entirely. But from what I can gather that may well have not been the final straw.

[LeadTurn_SD]

I follow this thread with great interest. With 35 years of dental, medical, forensic and CSI practice behind me I can say with certainty this one thing:

If someone wants to pursue an action (like descending or other harmful activities), NO ONE, not even the best trained, most well intentioned person, may be able to stop that harmful action.

I would not point fingers at others involved in this unfortunate situation. I am sure all was done that was possible from what I have read.

If someone's poor judgement led up to this event that is another issue entirely. But from what I can gather that may well have not been the final straw.

This assumes that the victim was intent on harming herself. That has been speculated, but I'm not 100% convinced this was anything other than an accident.

I'm sorry, but what I keep coming back to is this: If I was the younger, stronger, healthier DM assigned as a buddy to "the oldest woman on the boat", and who was apparently recovering from a stroke... How would she have been able to get away from me short of a full-on physical assault, not just once, but twice? I think I understand what happened, but strongly disagree that the DM acted correctly.

I'm sure the DM is agonizing over this and I do feel for her, but based on everything described, the DM goofed badly on this dive.

Best wishes.

[ItsBruce]

My issue here is with the DM letting her buddy get too far away, not with anything after that. And, I'm not to sure about the too far away bit. (This is all discounting the theory that the DM was expressly hired as a babysitter.)

As I see it, from the posts here, the DM ran out of time / depth to have grabbed the victim's valve and surfaced. Perhaps with another 15 or 20 seconds of time to address the problem, she could have. But, perhaps by the time she realized what she needed to do, they were too deep for her to safely continue with a rescue.

Now, as far as those who say that if their buddy deviates from the dive plan, they grab the tank and surface, I ask: "Really?"

And, as far as buddy contact. If I am buddied up with some stranger, but not as a paid babysitter, am I expected to follow that person around so that I am in close contact should that person decide to swim away from where I am swimming?

(This is not as well framed as I'd like, but I'm short on time.)

[Web Monkey]

I'll leave it after this. Terry, I have enormous respect for pretty much all your posts and I really mean that - you seem consistently sane :) in addition to knowing your stuff.

But I don't think you can compare bringing a distressed or unconscious diver to the surface to a diver that is willfully defying such. Happy to be educated on why I'm wrong.

The most negative a properly weighted diver can be is whatever the gas in the tank weighs + buoyancy lost due to wetsuit compression. Even assuming the victim was overweighted and dumped all the air from her BC, I don't see much of a chance of her becoming more than 20 pounds negative.

On the other hand, my jacket BC is rated for about 70 pounds of lift.

All that is required is that I have one hand that is strong enough to carry a bag of groceries, another hand to work my inflator, and can get behind the victim and grab the tank valve.

Assuming that I can do this and the victim is unarmed, we're both going up, and I don't really care what the victim does at this point with hoses or inflators or dump valves. The victim really has no way to interfere with this in any significant manner.

Yes, if the victim was intent on committing suicide and had ninja-like skills, she probably could have prevented her own rescue. However none of this has been shown. All we have is a 68 year old lady who may have had a recent stroke and may have either pushed the DM away or given a hand signal. Neither comes anywhere near the level of threat that would be required to abandon a rescue.

I'm not Rambo and this isn't some sort of Macho BS. It's just a minimally competent level of rescue skills. Of course, even what's better than rescue skills are buddy skills. Had the DM been a proper buddy, the rescue could have been handled at a reasonable depth with even less risk to both parties, or avoided completely.

Terry

[onlyhalcyon]

FYI this inccident happend fairly close to the begining of the dive, the DM was most surely not out out of air or time when she decided to stop persuing Ms Wood We were around 17 mins into our dive, and after all was said and done I surfaced with a total dive time of around 34 mins. From what I saw I dont think that the DM could have done anything had she went deeper- since she had failed to take charge of the situation leading to that point, my guess is that she was is in disbeleif at what was happening. When the DM swam upto me having just parted with Ms Wood she looked very shocked and stressed.

[Riger]

Does anyone know if any criminal or civil charges have been filed in this incident?

Whilst it is probably not likely to happen, I'd really like to see the DM/Buddy here in the forum putting her perspective on things. (With legal sword of Damocles hanging out there, that might never happen I suppose).

Best Regards
Richard

For those who are wondering -Damocles, a legendary courtier who extravagantly praised the happiness of Dionysius I, ruler of Syracuse. To show him how precarious this happiness was, Dionysius seated him at a banquet with a sword hung by a single hair over his head.

[alohagal]

I know you have tried to explain this to the best of your ability. Can you reiterate who was buddied with whom? Was the husband the buddy of Ms. Wood and the DM with the Woods friend? Or was it more like the 4 of them diving together? Was it clear? You may not have the answers for this. But, any insight would be appreciated.

I just got through diving for 3 and half weeks in Cozumel/Playa area. I was solo on the trip, And dove with three different dive resorts and countless different DM's. We did not always have even numbers of people and buddies not always clearly defined by some DM's. I made sure I was in the front with the DM. But, there were times I had more air and more time than the DM who might be near DECO from multiple dives that day, I would then stay on the dive and I would choose to do so, with others who were still underwater with me. Most DM's just required me to surface at 700PSI or 60 minutes whichever came first on the DEEP dive of the day. Even if they needed to go up. Might be foolhardy but that is the way it often went.

Thanks for any insight,
Mary

[stadevene]

Mary, my understanding is Mr. Wood and friend were buddies. Based on the accounts it sounds like the DM was Mrs Wood's buddy...however I'm not 100% sure if the DM was brought in as primarily a guide for that group and secondly to make the numbers even.

What I feel we're missing is any pre-dive discussion between the DM and her group/buddy. Was there a typical "follow me, I'll show you some cool stuff" type of discussion or did Mrs. Wood say she was ok solo or was there some discussion about her needing a full time escort? I think only knowing this discussion can there be any finality put to this discussion.

I've said before I think this is a tough position for the DM. I would imagine (based solely on observations of DM/guides I've had in the past) a large part of their role is as an "ambassador" for the location. This seems to be the typical approach especially with divers who don't voice any concerns/aren't brand new. A primary goal is to have their customers comment on how great the dive was. Of course, the divers need to actually come up...

I think we should move on from laying blame to looking at what can be done to avoid this in the future. I think the takeaways from this situation are varied:
For the operator:
- Do everything you can to ensure your customers disclose any prior medical conditions
- Assist your DMs in keeping their skills current by giving them practice time. I'm sure in resort areas DMs are in demand 7 days a week, but attempt to build in some time
- Talk to your DMs about emergency situations and establish a protocol to follow
- Build a pre dive checklist for your employees which includes a review of emergency situations

For the DM:
- Continue to drill emergency situations and at minimum discuss what if scenarios with your fellow DMs.
- Ensure you've talked to, and attempted to build up a rapport with your customers before the dive. You may uncover an anxiety or condition which was not previously disclosed.
- Ensure it's clear what the dive plan is, what your role will be on the dive, and what will happen if anyone strays from the plan
- Ensure everyone is clear what to do in an emergency situation
- Clearly explain your hand signals
- Carry a slate for ease of communication

For the diver:
- Be honest with yourself about your condition. Be brave enough to say no to a dive or put limits on yourself to ensure you're comfortable.
- Ensure your doctor is aware you're a diver and have a trip planned so they can inform you of any concerns or considerations you should have. If your doctor has no knowledge, call up DAN.
- Follow the dive plan
- Stick close to your buddy
- Discuss what your dive formation will be (leader-follower, side-by-side, etc)
- Increase the amount of times you check on your buddy, I'm sure the majority of us don't do it enough
- Set your depth alarm on your computer to match the dive plan
- Carry a slate for ease of communication
- Practice your hand signals with your buddy

There are probably a dozen more I've missed but this is a good start.

[alohagal]

I was reading through alot of the posts since obviously this event is on my mind a lot, and I keep reading that the DM with Ms Wood was hired to buddy with with her. I feel that this is not entirely true. From what I learend after the dive the DM was asked to buddy with Ms Wood but was not on a specific contract with extra payment. She was one of or DM's that day and obviously buddied with Ms Wood but I think to use the word hired implies that she agreed to give Ms Wood special attention and that she was at risk with out her own personal DM. I don't even think Stuart Cove offer this service.

My wife and I were talking over what she had read in response to my posts since we havn't really talked alot about what I wanted to do but didn't. Sure we have talked about the general facts of the dive etc but I kind of held back on my thoughts and feelings relating to the urge to leave her and take charge of what was happening. after reading the posts bashing the DM for not stepping up I find it strange that no one has ever mentioned her husband? He was in fact diving with us that morning and new far more about her than anyone. If she had indeed had a stoke he would have know how serious and to what level of supervision she would require, if she should have been diving at all? Thats like giving a mechanic the keys to your car knowing the brakes may fail but not telling him and blaming him for crashing your car. (im in the car biz so its the best I could come up with) Ms Wood was in a group of 3, her husband and a freind of her husbands, but you have to ask yourself what diver in their right mind would let his wife dive and not be behind her keeping and eye on her.? Given all that he knew that had happend prior to that morning! My wife told me that she didn't feel 100% that morning and I focused on every movement she made that dive. Even though she kept giving me the OK signal I knew she was having a stressful dive. To bash the DM who had far less understanding of Ms Wood just doesn't seem right.

Don't get me wrong before this dive I held resort DM up high and thought that they would make sure nothing bad happened on the dive, but it is obviously not true and after great thought its not really fair to hold them accountable when things go wrong.
Every diver should make every effort to ensure their own safety, if you don't have the skills get them, if your buddy drifts to far away follow them don't expect them to chase you, its YOUR life line incase things go wrong.

It was the first paragraph above that makes me ask my question, again. I am just wondering if they had a group mentality of buddying...and usually couples will buddy together. (not always the best idea, but, often how it pairs up)

I know for a long time my sister and I did not make the best buddies together. We fought as kids growing up and our communication breakdown under water could be just as lousy at times. We would agree what hand signals meant on top and that changed entirely with extra gesticulations under water.

We would go up top to de-brief and we bothed viewed the same scenario completely differently. We had too many years as antagonists under our belt.

[bowlofpetunias]

I'd really like to see the DM/Buddy here in the forum putting her perspective on things. (With legal sword of Damocles hanging out there, that might never happen I suppose).

Yeah me too but the pen is mightier than the sword. I would suggest the DM would only have to read a few pages of this thread to realize how deeply this particular pen will pierce!:no:

I was reading through alot of the posts since obviously this event is on my mind a lot, and I keep reading that the DM with Ms Wood was hired to buddy with with her. I feel that this is not entirely true. From what I learend after the dive the DM was asked to buddy with Ms Wood but was not on a specific contract with extra payment. She was one of or DM's that day and obviously buddied with Ms Wood but I think to use the word hired implies that she agreed to give Ms Wood special attention and that she was at risk with out her own personal DM. I don't even think Stuart Cove offer this service.

Wow this changes my perception a lot. If the DM was not HIRED to BUDDY with Mrs Wood and had other responsibilities I am not sure it is reasonable to expect her to be constantly watching Mrs Wood and ready to intervene at the first indication of independent behavior!

fter reading the posts bashing the DM for not stepping up I find it strange that no one has ever mentioned her husband? He was in fact diving with us that morning and new far more about her than anyone. If she had indeed had a stoke he would have know how serious and to what level of supervision she would require, if she should have been diving at all? Thats like giving a mechanic the keys to your car knowing the brakes may fail but not telling him and blaming him for crashing your car. (im in the car biz so its the best I could come up with) Ms Wood was in a group of 3, her husband and a freind of her husbands, but you have to ask yourself what diver in their right mind would let his wife dive and not be behind her keeping and eye on her.? Given all that he knew that had happend prior to that morning!

One would reasonable assume that the husband would know of her medical issues and any dive issue and therefor ensure he kept a close eye on her or provided for her in some way (such as hiring a DM buddy to fulfil that role which is what I thought had happened and now realize did not happen) Thinking that he had provided the best he could for her then diving his own dive is one thing... this is something else entirely!

There is a couple I avoid diving with. He is IMHO a competent but selfish diver. She is a very nervous diver with rather poor skills. He never buddies with her... he leaves everyone else to shorten their dives to take her to the surface when she gets low on air or hold her hand when she gets stressed. I resent having dives I have paid a lot of money for and having my holidays ruined by someone who does not seem to do anything to improve their skills while their partner goes off and enjoys the type of dive I have paid for! INHO both these people are being selfish and that may have been the case with the WOODS? I am afraid I believe one day there will be a tragedy with the pair I mentioned and I do not want to be anywhere close by when it happens! We are all adults making choices ...

To bash the DM who had far less understanding of Ms Wood just doesn't seem right.

Don't get me wrong before this dive I held resort DM up high and thought that they would make sure nothing bad happened on the dive, but it is obviously not true and after great thought its not really fair to hold them accountable when things go wrong.
Every diver should make every effort to ensure their own safety, if you don't have the skills get them, if your buddy drifts to far away follow them don't expect them to chase you, its YOUR life line incase things go wrong.

I absolutely agree with your here! I do reserve the right to do all I can to get my buddy's attention if they go where it is not safe to go and try to get them to come back ... but I will not follow them mindlessly into danger either!


I follow this thread with great interest. With 35 years of dental, medical, forensic and CSI practice behind me I can say with certainty this one thing:
If someone wants to pursue an action (like descending or other harmful activities), NO ONE, not even the best trained, most well intentioned person, may be able to stop that harmful action.

I would not point fingers at others involved in this unfortunate situation. I am sure all was done that was possible from what I have read.

If someone's poor judgement led up to this event that is another issue entirely. But from what I can gather that may well have not been the final straw.

I don't read this as intent on self harm (suicide) I read it as intent on doing harmful activities! Taking drugs is a Harmful activity that may result in death but it not neccessarily suicidal! Anyone ever tried to talk a dug addict out of their fix?

I have seen the trouble well meaning people have found themselves in when trying to stop a determined person from doing something they were intent on!

Mr Wood may have been intent on nothing more than stopping anyone from challenging her decision to do what she wanted!

I feel we can learn from this tragic incident as FACTS are known...my take is that many divers feel they need not assume liability for their dive. A DM does not mitigate all the inherent dangers involved with SCUBA. As a LEO, many years on SWAT taught me one thing I carry over as an Instructor/DM..."I can save you from the Boogie Man and all the evils of the world, but I CANNOT protect you from your own damn stupidity!" I have had more 'divers' run out of air, roll hard deco, or just plain hit the 'Oh **** Switch', and everytime I intervened and they lived to I'm sure do it to another unsuspecting DM. I would hope that a sobering, "Hey guys, as divers we need to respect this sport and learn from this incident" would be in order. Instead, let's point fingers and blame someone so we all go back to being lazy and make our safety someone elses responsibility.

:yelclap: I applaud everything you have said here but one part.... I feel we can learn from this tragic incident even without all the FACTS if it makes us think and re-examine our perceptions and skills!

Sorry this is so long but I have tried to respond to this thread a few times over the last few days and kept getting dumped offline when I went to post.. lol this time I am saving my response so I won't have to retype it all if it happens again!

[shoredivr]

I was reading through alot of the posts since obviously this event is on my mind a lot, and I keep reading that the DM with Ms Wood was hired to buddy with with her. I feel that this is not entirely true. From what I learend after the dive the DM was asked to buddy with Ms Wood but was not on a specific contract with extra payment. She was one of or DM's that day and obviously buddied with Ms Wood but I think to use the word hired implies that she agreed to give Ms Wood special attention and that she was at risk with out her own personal DM. I don't even think Stuart Cove offer this service.






Wow this changes my perception a lot. If the DM was not HIRED to BUDDY with Mrs Wood and had other responsibilities I am not sure it is reasonable to expect her to be constantly watching Mrs Wood and ready to intervene at the first indication of independent behavior!



Thank you for repeating this bit, bowlofpetunias, seems like some are missing it. "It" being that onlyhalcyon states that the DM was not hired to specifically buddy with Mrs Wood.

[stadevene]

I don't think some are missing "it". If I've interpreted the commends right, I think some are feeling it's not relevant and as a DM if you're buddied up with a diver you better treat them as your buddy. Keep proper distance/closeness, communicate with them, check on them frequently, that sort of thing.

As I said in my last (long winded) post I'm curious what the pre dive discussion and plan was. If the DM was brought in to strictly make a team of 4 (two buddy teams) or was brought in, or thought they were brought in to guide the three divers.

[Thalassamania]

Thank you for repeating this bit, bowlofpetunias, seems like some are missing it. "It" being that onlyhalcyon states that the DM was not hired to specifically buddy with Mrs Wood.

Read the OP:
The following incident took place today (June 3) at Tunnel Wall near Nassau on Stuart Cove's boat White Bunjie.

At approximately 10:45 am, a female diver was observed descending the wall, which drops from a 35' reef depth to an estimated 6,000'. A dive master retained by the diver/husband attempted to stop her descent at approximately 100', and was seen pushing the DM away and continuing her descent.

An Instructor was alerted and descended to a depth of approximately 170', where he could see a bubble line starting below him. When everyone returned to the boat there were additional underwater searches conducted by Stuart Cove DM/Instructors, and surface searches by unaffiliated DM/Rescue Divers on the boat.

After the requisite debriefing and completeing of witness statements some three hours later, there was still no rescue or recovery of the missing diver. I would estimate the female involved was in her late fourties or early fifties, was not overweight, and appeared in good physical shape. I have no history on her diving background.

Please keep the missing diver, her husband, family and friends in the San Francisco Bay area, the DM and Instructor involved in the initial search, and those involved in subsequent rescue activities in your thoughts.

Out of respect for those involved, names are not being provided. I am sure this information will be released publicly by local officials.

DanThen read:
I was reading through alot of the posts since obviously this event is on my mind a lot, and I keep reading that the DM with Ms Wood was hired to buddy with with her. I feel that this is not entirely true. From what I learend after the dive the DM was asked to buddy with Ms Wood but was not on a specific contract with extra payment. She was one of or DM's that day and obviously buddied with Ms Wood but I think to use the word hired implies that she agreed to give Ms Wood special attention and that she was at risk with out her own personal DM. I don't even think Stuart Cove offer this service.

My wife and I were talking over what she had read in response to my posts since we havn't really talked alot about what I wanted to do but didn't. Sure we have talked about the general facts of the dive etc but I kind of held back on my thoughts and feelings relating to the urge to leave her and take charge of what was happening. after reading the posts bashing the DM for not stepping up I find it strange that no one has ever mentioned her husband? He was in fact diving with us that morning and new far more about her than anyone. If she had indeed had a stoke he would have know how serious and to what level of supervision she would require, if she should have been diving at all? Thats like giving a mechanic the keys to your car knowing the brakes may fail but not telling him and blaming him for crashing your car. (im in the car biz so its the best I could come up with) Ms Wood was in a group of 3, her husband and a freind of her husbands, but you have to ask yourself what diver in their right mind would let his wife dive and not be behind her keeping and eye on her.? Given all that he knew that had happend prior to that morning! My wife told me that she didn't feel 100% that morning and I focused on every movement she made that dive. Even though she kept giving me the OK signal I knew she was having a stressful dive. To bash the DM who had far less understanding of Ms Wood just doesn't seem right.

Don't get me wrong before this dive I held resort DM up high and thought that they would make sure nothing bad happened on the dive, but it is obviously not true and after great thought its not really fair to hold them accountable when things go wrong.
Every diver should make every effort to ensure their own safety, if you don't have the skills get them, if your buddy drifts to far away follow them don't expect them to chase you, its YOUR life line incase things go wrong.

So what are the facts?

[onlyhalcyon]

[QUOTE=alohagal;4556666]I know you have tried to explain this to the best of your ability. Can you reiterate who was buddied with whom? Was the husband the buddy of Ms. Wood and the DM with the Woods friend? Or was it more like the 4 of them diving together? Was it clear? You may not have the answers for this. But, any insight would be appreciated.

This is probably more detailed than it needs to be, but it have played this through in my mind so many times its kind of nice to type it out. Hope it fills in the gaps.

The Woods and a friend boarded the boat as a group of 3 and preped their equipment all sitting next to each other on the port side of the boat (left side if facing the front of the boat) taking up the last 3 positions. To form a mental picture the port side of the boat starting from the rear was made up of the Woods group of 3 next their were 2 more divers and then my wife and I were next this bring us upto the enty/exit point next to the dock where people were getting on the boat and just under the deck where the captain and upper deck starts. Ms Woods husband and his friend didn't really mingle pre dive and don't remember seeing Ms Wood at all on our way to the dive site. The ride from the dock to the dive site which was around 12 mins I do recall noticing that Ms Woods husband and his friend spent that time sitting next to each other talking. To me this is usually a sign of being fairly new to diving since experienced divers frequently share stories and chat pre dive (not always but most of the time). After ariving at the site her husband and his friend / buddy were I would say probably in the first 6 people to enter the water, which was pretty quick but having said that they were at the back of the boat. A DM was first to enter and this was the same DM who lead the dive and the one who dismissed me after I informed him that their was a diver missing.
My wife and I were probably close to the last divers to enter, leaving around 6 divers left to enter and Ms Wood and her DM were among the 6. So in the water you have a DM upfront probably closely followed by Ms Woods huband and friend who were buddied and Ms Wood at almost the back of the group. This was a very full boat with around 17 divers. My wife and I had comented the day before that it sucked that we had such a large group since our previous experience with groups this large usually means that you have so many different skill levels, which almost always leads to a less enjoyable dive due to sand being kicked up and any cool stuff has usually fled the scene by the time the back of the group gets to that point. My though on this is to hang back as far as possible in the hope that the cool stuff will come back out of hiding once the group has passed. Being at the back and given my wifes trouble equalizing and and being at a shallower depth than we would normaly be at is when I saw the events unfold. Its interesting when I think back, if my wife was not having the issue with her ear we would have been at the same depth as Ms Wood and her DM. Since they were in the water after us and I saw them swim under me and below and shortly after pass me below, if I had only been at our regualr depth the panicing DM would have seen my wife and I instead of being below me and unaware that there were divers close by and just above since we were right at the back of the group. When I rewind in my mind the key points and replace some of them with 'if only' the events that day could have played out very differently. I was reminded of this a couple of weeks ago when I watched a movie. In the movie 'Curious case of Ben Button' in the last 3/4 of the movie they do something very similar when Brad Pitts girlfriend is hit by a car. I constantly find myself doing something very similar in my mind. Anyway.
If anyone else has any Q's I would be more than happy to answer them if I have the knowledge. I know it if difficult to mentaly put things together a form a factual picture of what happened that morning. Even for me.

[Kksmama]

I am currently on vacation in the Bahamas and only joined this site after reading the posts. I am the primary witness to the dive incident involving Mrs Wood. I will post my account of what happened once I get back to NY and once the Forensic Dive Investigation team has had a chance to talk with all the people involved. I would like to say that prior to talking with the Dive Investigator I had similar views to the posts above. However what we are all missing is the DM's account of what happened. After talking with both the DM and the FDI I now have a clearer understanding of what transpired that morning.

Scubafanatic,RichnLenny,

Hang in here for a minute,I need your help.Heres what I saw happen on the dive.I will keep this as short and as factful as my memory will serve.

When I speak of Mrs Wood, shes the missing diver. Mr Wood is her husband. There is another couple I will speak of also. I will refer to them as "Another couple".




We all got our briefing,the plan was that we would dive out to the edge of the wall. Comfortable (experienced) divers and their dive buddy could dive past the edge or drop off. Mrs.Wood was to dive with her assigned DM.

The group descended to the bottom. At this point we were ALL moving along the bottom toward the wall.At this point I didnt know who was who except who my partner was and the instructor. The instructor was leading. The total distance from were we touched the bottom to the edge of the ledge was about 100 feet. The depth at this time, about 72 feet. The group went out to the edge of the ledge and turned right and followed the edge 100 to 200 feet and turned toward the boat and started a slow shallow incline ascent. I was the first one on the line.(stern line with a weight to do a safety stop at). Another couple was hanging not on the line but near me at the stop. I got out,and on the boat. I was removing my gear and another couple and the DM getting on the boat. I got out of my gear and was walking over to another couple and asked how they liked the dive. The guy from the other couple was shaking his head and told me the DM lost her partner. He turned to the DM and asked where her partner was. The DM walked to the bow alone and sat down with her back to the cabin and stared texting a message.(she was very upset and wipping her eyes.) About 5 minutes or so later the Instructor and the group returned on board. The man from another couple told the instructor that the DM was missing her partner. The instrutor rushed to the bow and had a very brief talk with the DM. The instrutor then came to the dive deck and geared back up. Him and a diver entered the water to search for Mrs.Wood. There were 4 other divers snorkeling and searching. After what seemed like thirty minutes or more we pulled anchor and picked up the instructor and other diver. As they were boarding our boat another boat from SC arrived with two more search divers. Mr. Wood and his friend then boarded that boat that was going to search again.

We left the area and meet another boat from SC and the DM boarded this boat and they went in,to the Dive center. The rest of us went and did a dive on the James Bond site and went in. I was not questioned by anyone. This is all I can tell you about what happened. I have tried to give the best account I can with facts and not blame or theories. It leaves as big of a question mark in my mind as it does everyone elses.

The DM was only hird to dive with MRS.Wood / Mr. Wood was diveing with a friend / yes the DM was informed by via hand signals by another diver and his wife that her partner was gone / confrontation I dident see it and dont know that it happen / not totaly what I think but almost

1. I was on the same boat with MRS.WOOD we all enter the water at the time
2. I would say that most of the divers on the boat were Advance or better
3. MR. WOOD was diving with us
4. another diver and hie wife useing hand signs single the DM that her partner was missing
the Instructor found out when he got on the boat
5. the DM was hired to dive with Mrs.Wood
6. I know nouthing of her diving background





It sounds like Meg clearly understood the DM to be a hired buddy, Onlyhalcyon seems to have had more post-incident discussions which have influenced his thinking. Memories are tricky things, and evolving judgement about what has been witnessed is common. Onlyhalycon, I imagine you'll be asked to explain how talking with the DM afterwards clarified the incident for you - I'd certainly like to know. I'm not criticizing here, I don't mean to suggest that either you or Meg is "wrong" but just that it is very easy for two people to have two (or more) different perspectives and for those perspectives to change over time and be influenced by subsequent events/conversations.

[Thalassamania]

We truly welcome your input and observations, they have been very useful. I am concerned about the idea that you bring forward: "From what I learend after the dive the DM was asked to buddy with Ms Wood but was not on a specific contract with extra payment. She was one of or DM's that day and obviously buddied with Ms Wood but I think to use the word hired implies that she agreed to give Ms Wood special attention and that she was at risk with out her own personal DM. I don't even think Stuart Cove offer this service."

I don't find it unusual that the operator and the employees would try to minimize their liability with such statements ex post facto. The only way we will ever really know is to see Mr. Wood's receipt.

In my mind the Instructor's duty toward Mrs. Woods does not hinge on payment (though proof of payment is proof perfect of the duty). If she, in fact, agreed to: "to give Ms Wood special attention and that she was at risk with out her own personal DM." that would be enough to convince me that there was a duty there to do more than she did. Now, if she really was supposed to be the DM for the entire group and wound up insta-buddied with Mrs Wood with no discussion of "special attention," that clearly would lessen, though no obviate, her duty,

[onlyhalcyon]

Read the OP:
Then read:


So what are the facts?

Thats an interesting question!

When reading the first post and with no disrespect to Dan with whom I did get to chat with breifly and on over hearing him talk most deff has more logged dives than I and is likely a more experienced diver than I am. Having said that the first post was a generic over view that was written based on partial second hand accounts of other divers. And it was a fairly factual sumarry posted only hours after the dive. Dan did put on a second bottle after completing the first dive and learing of what had happened and entered the water with 2 of the DM's. I did not grab a second tank as I knew it was hopeless since the DM who was with a AOW group of 2 told me he went to 170ft and could only see bubbles rising from below. He did not par take in the second dive and chated with the other divers while I did make the second dive. Which I felt was in very bad taste on Stuart Coves part but given the fact that I had looked forward to this trip for so long I wasn't going to pass on diving no matter what.

Since I was the diver the DM first alerted and I was waiting at the back of the boat after exiting the water and dumping my gear I waited for her to surface to see if what I had seen had really happened we spoke while heading back on the boat and several times after that. I only know what I was told by her and others I spoke with and forwarded that info in my posts.

[LeadTurn_SD]

....In my mind the Instructor's duty toward Mrs. Woods does not hinge on payment (though proof of payment is proof perfect of the duty). If she, in fact, agreed to: "to give Ms Wood special attention and that she was at risk with out her own personal DM." that would be enough to convince me that there was a duty there to do more than she did. Now, if she really was supposed to be the DM for the entire group and wound up insta-buddied with Mrs Wood with no discussion of "special attention," that clearly would lessen, though no obviate, her duty,

Agree.

A point was made earlier about each diver ultimately being responsible for their own safety, and while that is absolutely true, it does not relieve someone in a "leadership" role from responsibility, or excuse a failure to take effective action when they see a dangerous situation developing.

From what has been reported here, the DM in this case was either unprepaired or unable to act in an effective manner to prevent her buddy from swimming down and away (to her death). It is still my feeling that this should not have been able to happen had the DM been paying attention and reacted appropriately to the situation in the early stages.

Best wishes.

[bowlofpetunias]

We truly welcome your input and observations, they have been very useful. I am concerned about the idea that you bring forward: "From what I learend after the dive the DM was asked to buddy with Ms Wood but was not on a specific contract with extra payment. She was one of or DM's that day and obviously buddied with Ms Wood but I think to use the word hired implies that she agreed to give Ms Wood special attention and that she was at risk with out her own personal DM. I don't even think Stuart Cove offer this service."

I don't find it unusual that the operator and the employees would try to minimize their liability with such statements ex post facto. The only way we will ever really know is to see Mr. Wood's receipt.

In my mind the Instructor's duty toward Mrs. Woods does not hinge on payment (though proof of payment is proof perfect of the duty). If she, in fact, agreed to: "to give Ms Wood special attention and that she was at risk with out her own personal DM." that would be enough to convince me that there was a duty there to do more than she did. Now, if she really was supposed to be the DM for the entire group and wound up insta-buddied with Mrs Wood with no discussion of "special attention," that clearly would lessen, though no obviate, her duty,

Onlyhalcoyn you have contributed a great deal to our understanding of this event. Your posts have been clear, non emotional and articulate. This and the fact that you witnessed a great deal of the event makes me inclined to accept your accounts. I appreciate that you have been willing to answer questions to the best of your ability. I really hope that you are finding benefit from participating here, that it is helping you put things in perspective find closure or what ever jargon you want to use!

I would appreciate it if you could tell us how you came to the conclusion that the DM was not hired specifically to buddy with Mrs Wood?

The part I have bolded in Thal's post is quite significant to me. I have been buddied with a DM who was also responsible for other divers at the same time. I felt at the time that created more responsibility for me to keep track of the DM and stay close because the DM had other duties. I did not like the arrangement then but I was/am a competent diver who accepts responsibility to keep myself out of trouble. Both buddies bear responsibility here... the DM could have an emergency which their buddy needs to be prepared to respond to... this is not a one way arrangement!

I take the role of buddy seriously because gear/health failures can occur with little or no warning through no one's fault! IMHO It is not a buddy's duty to get you out of trouble you blunder into through sheer stupidity, irresponsible behavior and failure to maintain reasonable skill levels because you can't be bothered making the effort!

[openmindOW]

Memories are tricky things . . . it is very easy for two people to have two (or more) different perspectives and for those perspectives to change over time and be influenced by subsequent events/conversations.

Absolutely true. I have spent part of my professional life involved with investigations, including death investigations. Human memory is not like a camera that takes an accurate snap-shot of a situation. We naturally filter what we see and we tend to only see what we focus on. Sometimes, we do not consciously "see" everything that is around us.

[openmindOW]

Onlyhalcoyn you have contributed a great deal to our understanding of this event. Your posts have been clear, non emotional and articulate.

I agree. Thank you, Onlyhalcyon.

[alohagal]

Thats an interesting question!

When reading the first post and with no disrespect to Dan with whom I did get to chat with breifly and on over hearing him talk most deff has more logged dives than I and is likely a more experienced diver than I am. Having said that the first post was a generic over view that was written based on partial second hand accounts of other divers. And it was a fairly factual sumarry posted only hours after the dive. Dan did put on a second bottle after completing the first dive and learing of what had happened and entered the water with 2 of the DM's. I did not grab a second tank as I knew it was hopeless since the DM who was with a AOW group of 2 told me he went to 170ft and could only see bubbles rising from below. He did not par take in the second dive and chated with the other divers while I did make the second dive. Which I felt was in very bad taste on Stuart Coves part but given the fact that I had looked forward to this trip for so long I wasn't going to pass on diving no matter what.

Since I was the diver the DM first alerted and I was waiting at the back of the boat after exiting the water and dumping my gear I waited for her to surface to see if what I had seen had really happened we spoke while heading back on the boat and several times after that. I only know what I was told by her and others I spoke with and forwarded that info in my posts.
I have read every post on this thread when it first started and continue to do so. I am intrigued, of course, by anything you have to post since you were actually there. I know I ask you to reiterate on a regular basis. But, could you try, to the best of your ability, give the DM you refer to above, her take on things. What she told you? And what she felt her partnering role to Ms. Woods was that day? Did she make any comment on that? And specific details are good. Keep them coming if you can. It is greatly appreicated.

[ScooterSouthFlorida]

I can't believe I read the whole (well almost all of it..) thread....... :D

Lots of great theories being shared/discussed. I am glad I joined the board, lots of good insight and knowledge on here.

I think Occam's Razor applies here, 'when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better.'

I think the simplest theory out of all the one's floated, is the correct one. This DM was either undertrained, underqualified, physically incapable of doing the job, or a combo of all three. Hired, not hired, paying attention, not paying attention, stroke, no stroke, is all back seat driving (or back seat diving), the fact is this DM screwed up and it cost someone their life.

If this DM made contact with the victim, then the only thing that happened after that was the DM was not qualified to then take control of the situation, as they should have been trained to do to become a DM in the first place. And no, I am not saying DM's should save someone at all costs/risks, I am saying that if the DM was able to establish contact, it was the DM's lack of ability/training/physical limitations that caused the DM to not be able to haul this diver to the surface.

It's like a parent on tv saying 'I only turned around for two seconds and lil' precious was facedown in the pool.' That's all it takes, and if you are not willing to watch those in your charge like a hawk, don't be a DM (or a parent for that matter.)


Ok, off my soapbox now, you can now lob grenades at the newbie for posting! :D

[onlyhalcyon]

I think the only way to clarify this is for me to send an email to the dive investigators and ask, I was told by one of the investigators that they would share their findings in an effort to give me some closure. I will try and send it this weekend and settle if the DM was specificaly hired to watch over Ms Wood or not

[Thalassamania]

Who are the dive investigators and whom do they work for? My past experience with Bahamian cases (and that was a long time about, things may well have changed) would lead me to expect that they are local police, poorly trained, with more interest in glossing thinks over and keeping local businesses and tourist board happy than in actually getting at the truth.

[cappyjon431]

Who are the dive investigators and whom do they work for? My past experience with Bahamian cases (and that was a long time about, things may well have changed) would lead me to expect that they are local police, poorly trained, with more interest in glossing thinks over and keeping local businesses and tourist board happy than in actually getting at the truth.

I spent many years working in the Bahamas (as recently as 2003) and that had been my experience as well. Come to think about it, it was almost identical to my experience with Belize.

[OneRestlessNative]

I just read this post in its entirety. 9 hours later and I am completely unnerved by some of the things that transpired. Naturally my heart goes out to the family and to the witnesses to this tragic event. I was born and raised in Florida and was swimming before I can even remember. The joke in my family is my real father was aqua-man and am regularly accused of having gills. At age 8 I was able to sit contently at the bottom of a pool for 3+ minutes. I feel more at home under the water in all its splendor than I do above the surface with most of the alien inhabitants that make me feel more and more isolated as each day of my dry life passes. My sub-oceanic experiences date back to an age of 5 or so as I clung to my dads tank sucking on his secondary having the time of my life chasing bugs around. (All at fairly shallow depth and within safe conditions) By age 10, I was piloting the boat while divers were down following bubbles around and assisting with all the gear, departing, and embarking. I made numerous dives as I grew up being a non-certified diver, and yes I knew the inherent dangers and limitations involved.( I can feel the heat and screams of horror before even hitting the submit button) At age 29 I figured it was about time to fork out the dough and take my OW cert with a well respected and very established LDS here in Melbourne. I am now seeking to get my AOW and possibly continue it further. I look forward to the classes, the awesome instructors, and trying to increase my wet time as life has derailed me from my passion. My instructors were top notch and made the whole experience one to remember although most of what I was taught was learned from my father. NONE! of these ill practices come recommended, so please do not commence with the beatings. =P
Now on to what bothers me most about this thread. Having every certification, degree, or title possible in no way makes any one person/corporation in any aspect of life responsible, capable, or for that matter deservant of the title or degree they hold. That fact is due to the simple human characteristics and the flaws that become us. The corruption of the society and the programs we create to govern ourselves and the greed that drives motivations. I am in no way discrediting the capable and truly deservant whom are dedicated and earned the accreditation's and uphold the honor of all it encompasses. This like so many other sports are safe within reason and will become deadly before one can even realize whats happened. (Yes, I have had 2 near death/drowing experiences, and not from those unmentionable acts listed above.) I truly honor and respect those that teach and guide, "BUT" it is ultimately up to "ME" to save my own arse be you paid or not, lifetime buddy, or complete stranger.!. I commend those who choose to to teach and truly feel for those tasked with willfull ignorance and disregard for others, and circumstances pushed upon you. As for this DM we speak of in this situation I can only imagine her frustration, confusion, horror, and grief. Afterall, how much was she rushed to accomodate?? To what degree was she briefed in the facts of the matter??? How many red flags were evident??? Who in their right mind can accost or assume her or their actions in that given situation????? There is something incredibly eerie and stomach turning that is going on in this situation we may never find the truth in. Any macho a$$ can sit behind their computer and insist what their actions would have been in this situation. The fact of the matter is no one knows what transpired 100%, except the DM and the deceased. I can only speculate what I would do and would never itnerject my reaction/action into this reality. I really hoped to find a final resolution from this tragedy and wish those involved never had to live this memory. To the members of the forum who choose to share the experience, I tip my hoodie to you. There is sooooo much to be taken from this tragedy. If I can summarize I wish to say to those that think they could single handedly drag me unwillingly to the surface from any depth is, you are SADLY mistaken !!! I am in controll of my life and if I have any controll of my death, deep, dark, and peacefull in the arms of my creator is how I will choose to pass!!! So it is written, and so it will be known, alone I will go; for I would never wish that burden of grief on anyone.
Sorry for the long winded interjection as this post left me with many thoughts and no real answers, so many things were wrong right from the beginning. Perhaps resolution, clartiy, and truth may follow; possibly not. But what I think we can all learn is to be responsible for ourselves and question those that lead us into the unknown. Our teachers, guides, buddies, and spouses are not baby sitters; as we are grown adults. If I am ever paired up with "YOU" and you are foolish and derelict resulting in me risking my own life to save you, I'm affraid I will just wave "buh bye" as the world is probably better off without you to begin with. I would expect no less if I were the conflictor/derelict. Sad but true!
***************
There are 3 thing I would love to question and truly think may be of the most importance within the industry??

1. As a person who is certified to teach, instruct, guide, rescue, and certify. Would it not be prudent to have the authorization to restrict, rescind/repossess/ suspend the license, and report the actions to the crediting agencies of the license holder and even the authorities in a worse case scenario? Leaving the individual to plead the case with the issuing agency? I believe if a corporation/entity as a regulator representing the community , collects funds, sets its standards as a licensing agency they should be fully responsible for the repossession/suspension as well !!!!!!!! Perhaps that might make people aware somewhat of their consequences and actions.

2. Proper medical evaluations by registered physicians within a regulatory board of registry and done in periodic yearly increments increasing with age????

3. Why am I forced to buy a license in the guise that I am being kept safe whilst I am excluded should I not pay up even though I may be perfectly capable of learning and training on my own self in this skill of recreational diving? Do mountain climbers need a card to go to 30,000? Does a skier need a card to do a triple black diamond?? Do i need a card to own or possess a 50 cal pistol? NOPE!!!!! which leads me to ask question number 1 and 2.......

I guess I should go post my :dork2: noob to the board post at this point, wishing everyone that reads this safe passage through the wet and dry in life!

[ScooterSouthFlorida]

If I can summarize I wish to say to those that think they could single handedly drag me unwillingly to the surface from any depth is, you are SADLY mistaken !!!

I would respectfully suggest that when/if you go for further certification, you ask your instructor to see if they can single handedly drag you unwillingwly to the surface.... People sometimes are amazed what another diver can do once they are 'on your 6' and gain control of your tank. ;)

[mikerault]

Short of releasing the BCD and tank and holding on to the weightbelt, once someone straddles your tank and has ahold of the valve you are like a turtle when someone has ahold of their shell, quite helpless! (Unless you have the neck of a snapping turtle!) From that position they can also get control of the inflator quite easily.

Mike

[awap]

Short of releasing the BCD and tank and holding on to the weightbelt, once someone straddles your tank and has ahold of the valve you are like a turtle when someone has ahold of their shell, quite helpless! (Unless you have the neck of a snapping turtle!) From that position they can also get control of the inflator quite easily.

Mike

If I were the unwilling victim of such a maneuver, I may readily perceive that as an assault and defend myself accordingly. Something a would be rescuer should consider before he/she decides to try to drag a diver to the surface.

[cappyjon431]

***************
There are 3 thing I would love to question and truly think may be of the most importance within the industry??

1. As a person who is certified to teach, instruct, guide, rescue, and certify. Would it not be prudent to have the authorization to restrict, rescind/repossess/ suspend the license, and report the actions to the crediting agencies of the license holder and even the authorities in a worse case scenario? Leaving the individual to plead the case with the issuing agency? I believe if a corporation/entity as a regulator representing the community , collects funds, sets its standards as a licensing agency they should be fully responsible for the repossession/suspension as well !!!!!!!! Perhaps that might make people aware somewhat of their consequences and actions.

2. Proper medical evaluations by registered physicians within a regulatory board of registry and done in periodic yearly increments increasing with age????

3. Why am I forced to buy a license in the guise that I am being kept safe whilst I am excluded should I not pay up even though I may be perfectly capable of learning and training on my own self in this skill of recreational diving? Do mountain climbers need a card to go to 30,000? Does a skier need a card to do a triple black diamond?? Do i need a card to own or possess a 50 cal pistol? NOPE!!!!! which leads me to ask question number 1 and 2.......

I guess I should go post my :dork2: noob to the board post at this point, wishing everyone that reads this safe passage through the wet and dry in life!

1. As a shop owner, I have the right to restrict anyone from diving that I want. I don't think agencies have the capability of checking claims of incompetence for individual divers, nor do I think I trust them with making these determinations. We are also talking about a multifold increase in staff and bueracracy. Most agencies have their hands full with quality assurance for individual professional members (DMs, instructors).

2. There are areas of the world where medical exams are required for diving (and for certification). Sounds like a way to increase the cost of the sport for all, add to the beauracracy, and might not necessarily work, as many doctors are not familiar with dive medicine. Where do we draw the line? What conditions preclude diving? Who decides which conditions preclude diving? This would be a can of worms most would like to avoid.

3. You do not buy a license, you earn it (although I have seen my share of divers who might have bought/found theirs). You do not need certification to dive (as your post noted in the beginning), but you may need it to go out on a dive boat, buy gear or have your tanks filled. As a shop owner, I have the right to let you dive without certification, but I CHOOSE to only let certified divers get their tanks filled or dive from my boats.

I am somewhat curious as to the apparent contradiction betwwen questions 1,2 with #3. Questions 1&2 seem to hint at a need for more control, more beaucaracy for the agencies, while question 3 seems like a call for NO need for agencies.

[ItsBruce]

Is anyone interested in a separate forum / thread / conference to discuss what it means to be a dive buddy? The more I think about it the more confused I become.

I know that when I dive, I want to enjoy it. If I have to watch a buddy like a hawk and am a babysitter, I'm not going to enjoy the dive. I expect a buddy will feel the same way. At the same time, I like the notion of having someone available to help me if something goes wrong. Again, I expect a buddy will feel the same way. So, in order to get the benefit of having someone available to help if something goes wrong, I need to be willing to give up some freedom in my dive and take some responsibility for someone else.

A few days ago, someone commented that the pre-dive briefing should include a discussion about what the buddy team should do/expect in the event one or the other deviates from the dive plan. That is a very good point.

[bleeb]

Is anyone interested in a separate forum / thread / conference to discuss what it means to be a dive buddy? The more I think about it the more confused I become.

Co-incidentally, someone just revived the How to be a Dive Buddy thread (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/258854-how-buddy.html) over in Basic.

[OneRestlessNative]

I can see how one can gain total control over a victim. ONLY and if ONLY they are able to get behind/above that person, provided they don't just un-clip and slip out. ANY! frontal maneuvers could result in a very dangerous assault scenario and a present many combative possibilities even without a weapon. That is just my perception of my own capabilities and although I'm not gonna assault my instructor, friends, strangers for the sake of proof. I just feel it might be very intimidating to some and maybe impossible to "SAFELY" gain control of a combative person underwater at depth.

Thank you Cappyjohn, you read my post spot on. What good is an unregulated agency that "supposedly" oversees or regulates the industry with seemingly total disregard for the ultimate safety of the very people it claims to keep "SAFE?" You as a shop owner DI, DM, and Captain respectively seem to held some sort of liability and potential loss of livelihood merely on the faith that someone else did their job with only your limited contact and judgment to save your own butt. Once that incident unfolds at +100ft it becomes +100fold the problem in so many ways. It just seems like a total contradiction of principle to me for the most part and mostly a money making scam. There will always be these kind of problems and I can only assume there might be more as I look to the left of the page and see an "ONLINE" learn to dive advertisement right here on this very page!!!! I am in no way discrediting the agencies, I just feel that there needs to be more involvement by "THEM" to enforce and uphold the standards they set fourth to the public if they choose to be the regulatory agency setting standards serving the the public.

My father learned to dive in the military and passed his knowledge down to me and would only let me dive within my respective abilities. It was only in his presence would he allow me to use all equipment and we never dove deeper that 60ft. Here in Florida one could spend a lifetime diving and never have the need to exceed 40-60 ft due to the sheer amount of stuff to do. As My dad got older he dove less and less, and since he was my buddy so did I. That is somewhat my reasoning for getting certified and now as I seek to dive more I want to expand my capabilities, knowledge, and explore some more of the deeper and traveled regions available to me.

I don't always feel that more bureaucracy is always better or even necessary. I am simply questioning the current standards of bureaucracy implemented and governing this sport.

[OneRestlessNative]

The logic behind my addition to this post and my thorough reading of the accounts lead me to believe that the deceased as spoken of should not have been permitted to dive much less even be in possession of a certification card. As well as a few other accounts other DM's, DI's have posted of their own experiences with so called trained certified divers. We buddy dive here in two's mostly because of the limited terrain and it just works out good for 2 groups of 2 with the room in the boat and the cycles of decompression and movement on available structure and viz.
The biggest and most unnerving thing about this story is the apparent arrogance of the deceased and the seeming lack of regard by the husband. On a dive of that caliber and over all water clarity "WHY" was the wife excluded and isolated from the hubby and partner. My understanding would lead me to believe that there could have been a 3 even 4 person buddy team if it was deemed she needed personal assistance or guidance. I sense some hostility, arrogance, and complete disregard for safety, physical, and mental well being of all involved at that location and trip. Those are just my own concerns and thoughts on this much unavoidable tragedy.

[ScooterSouthFlorida]

I know that when I dive, I want to enjoy it. If I have to watch a buddy like a hawk and am a babysitter, I'm not going to enjoy the dive. I expect a buddy will feel the same way.


Why does this thread take turns into entirely different dive scenarios??? :confused:

I don't believe anyone has implied here or even stated that a BUDDY has to watch his other buddy like a hawk or babysit; this is not a story of a buddy completely failing to be a good dive buddy, but of how a DM was 'in charge' of another diver and assigned to be a buddy, then failed to use any sort of diligence which resulted in a divers death. This was PREVENTABLE had the DM done her job, which is to not have this diver get into this situation in the first place! You wanna hold the DM certification, you are then accepting you will be held to a higher standard then 'Joe Resort-Course diver' on every dive you make in the future, no matter for fun or work.

[mrlipis]

but of how a DM was 'in charge' of another diver and assigned to be a buddy, then failed to use any sort of diligence which resulted in a divers death.

While I don't know if you have been following this thread, how and why this DM ended up on this dive has been unsubstantiated. If we are trying to find culpability this is an important piece of information. She may very well have been added to the boat because of the amount of divers. Her primary role may have been simply an additional DM regardless of whether or not she was "buddied" with Mrs. Wood. If she was an additional DM she had other responsibilities, which could explain Mrs. Wood getting separated as far as she did. Hopefully Onlyhalcyon is able to get that information.

[onlyhalcyon]

While I don't know if you have been following this thread, how and why this DM ended up on this dive has been unsubstantiated. If we are trying to find culpability this is an important piece of information. She may very well have been added to the boat because of the amount of divers. Her primary role may have been simply an additional DM regardless of whether or not she was "buddied" with Mrs. Wood. If she was an additional DM she had other responsibilities, which could explain Mrs. Wood getting separated as far as she did. Hopefully Onlyhalcyon is able to get that information.

From what I understand the DM in question was part of the crew and not a DM hired only to take care of Ms Wood, but after reading other posts it seems that may not have been the case. I emailed the dive invest guys only moments ago who were requesting the download from my dive computer that morning so hopefully we will know the true answer to this question soon.

[onlyhalcyon]

If she was an additional DM she had other responsibilities, which could explain Mrs. Wood getting separated as far as she did. Hopefully Onlyhalcyon is able to get that information.

After reading your post again I can say that the DM was not performing any other duties at the time when Ms Wood seperated. My wife and I were to my knowledge almost at the back of the group and there were very few if any other divers behind us, with the exception of those two. It would be highly likely that they were the last 2 divers since in this position the DM would be able to perform two tasks, DM to Ms Wood, and look out for any divers who may have been left behind by the group. I will be able to confirm this once I receive the reply from the Dive Invst's.

[Thalassamania]

The only real way to comfirm this is by looking at the bill and checking past SOP.

[onlyhalcyon]

Who are the dive investigators and whom do they work for? My past experience with Bahamian cases (and that was a long time about, things may well have changed) would lead me to expect that they are local police, poorly trained, with more interest in glossing thinks over and keeping local businesses and tourist board happy than in actually getting at the truth.

The dive investigators are not form the Bahamas. They are based in Boca Raton FL, I am not sure who hired their services.

[Thalassamania]

In that case I really must ask:

who are they?
whom do they work for?
what are their qualifications?

I'm now really curious, in all my years I've never heard of such a thing.

[mrlipis]

My wife and I were to my knowledge almost at the back of the group and there were very few if any other divers behind us, with the exception of those two.

I am not challenging this statement but I thought you and your wife were the last ones in the group, do to her equalization problems.
There have been many insinuations that the DM should have never let Mrs. Wood get separated. Unless the DM had Mrs. Wood had an agreement, whether written or verbal, the DM got on that boat and became an even number. She and Mrs. Wood "buddied up" just like the hundreds of other times a single diver needed a buddy. I do believe that the DM was the last one to get on the boat and while I am speculating it seems to me she was simply a last minute addition.

I would also be curious if Onlyhalcyon remembers any interaction between the DM and Mrs. Wood on the trip to the dive site. If I am hired as a personal DM, I can assure you, I am going to find out as much as I can about my clients experience and why they feel it necessary to hire me. If she was a hired DM, I would expect there was a great deal of pre dive conversation.

Bruce

[cappyjon431]

In that case I really must ask:

who are they?
whom do they work for?
what are their qualifications?

I'm now really curious, in all my years I've never heard of such a thing.


Sounds strange to me too. I was involved with a couple of fatalities in the Bahamas (both later determined to be heart attacks) and it was just the Bahamian police investigating. Perhaps they are investigators for an insurance company (for either Stuart Cove's or Mr. Wood)?

[CDNScubaMoose]

Its taken me 3 days to get through this thread. To be honest, my thoughts and opinions have danced all over the place - both from additional information coming forward and from the opinions of the various thread participants. I would like to thank both groups since this thread has caused me to ask questions of myself and force me to think outside of my usual viewpoints.

I was before, and still am a firm believer in that you are ultimately responsible for your own actions. I think it is fool hardy to put your safety in someone else's hands (especially someone you just met). The one analogy that I came up with would be that if I got in an accident due to excessive speed and then being pissed off at the cops (who's salary I pay via taxes :eyebrow:) for not catching me in the first place.

However, as an instructor I also train my DMC's to be ready for just about anything and expect the worst. At the very least they will be prepared for just about anything and most likely won't have to resort to their preperations for the worst case scenerio. So with this in mind, I initially had some serious concerns about the DM in question ... I realize there is some missing holes about just what her role was but I think it was pretty clear that at some point she realized there was an issue and attempted to address it. Several posters commented on their belief that it would be next to impossible to get an unwilling diver to the surface - my first thought was that a) these posters hadn't taken a rescue course or b) their rescue course had some serious lapses. But, as I thought about it I realized, that I had never really attempted to get a diver who was unwilling to ascend to the surface - panic diver on the surface (yep), non-responsive or diver unable to ascend (in training), a panic diver at depth that most definitely wanted to get to the surface (and fast) but the thought of a diver "who didn't want to ascend", was something I hadn't thought of before.

So I am now planning on doing a little experiment - I have a couple DMC's right now that are pretty fit in the 30-40 range. I am going to set up a rescue scenerio at a local site (25' max depth) and have one of the DMC's attempt to fend me off/prevent me from bringing them to the surface. Guidelines will be that they can't lay on their back (I have to be able to get at the tank valve), and no weapons. I also plan on having a safety diver in the water with me. I realize that the victim in this case was an elderly woman but I am a bit bigger then the DM in question was so I hope that this equates a bit. The one question that I have about bringing an unwilling diver to the surface that this won't cover is what effect the narcosis might have played on the DM ... I have experience that narcosis can start in the 80' range and it doesn't take a huge leap of faith for me to believe that if I saw my insta-buddy at 80' not responding to my communication to come shallower and in fact attempted to impede my efforts ... I could definitely have a ***??? moment or two and can not for 100% certainity say I would know how to handle that situation.

I am curious if it was ever established what the victim's dive experience was? I remember some speculation that she, her husband and his buddy/friend were relatively new since they didn't interact much on the boat with other divers and from my own speculation, the fact that she was in rental gear would suggest she wasn't as immersed into the sport as some of us have become. I also seem to remember a poster mentioning (and I believe s/he) was an instructor that they knew the victim outside of diving and the victim had told them they were getting into the sport - if this poster is still reading this, can you tell us how long ago this was?

I am also a bit of a photog and although I try to avoid the stereotypical "poor buddy" skills that can be common, I do expect my buddy to not wander off either. I will admit to having experience where buddy contact wasn't the best and have had 10-15' seperation, 20' is a bit much but not unbelievable (especially in good vis conditions). I struggle with a DM allowing that much of a gap but I can appreciate that if the victim didn't have good buddy skills then it could happen pretty easily (say if the victim saw a shark or something else that was speculated about). It doesn't take long to cover 20' ... I guess what I am saying is that I can see how the victim could have gotten away. To the posters that suggested stronger buddy contact by the DM was in order ... I was on a trip where my insta-buddy was determined to get into my BCD with me (or at least it seemed). After the first dive I asked her to just give me a little more space so that we didn't keep running into each other which made my diving a lot more enjoyable. I believe it is a bit much to expect DM's to hold the hand or tank valve of a certified diver ... there has to be some expectation that a certified diver can function on their own.

[mrlipis]

Great post Moose and I like the idea of your experiment but I don't understand the part about the diver not being able to lie on his back. If I am trying to keep you from getting behind me I am going to do whatever necessary to make sure you don't. If you are talking about him/her lying on the bottom, just grab a strap and yank him up. I think you have to take that out of the rules.
Keep something else in mind while doing this experiment, there was no hard bottom. A little hard to re-enact considering the depths that were reported. One last thing... We don't want to see a new title here "experiment gone bad" LOL.

[bowlofpetunias]

Fish (hubby/dive buddy) and I were talking on the way back from our dive yesterday about DM's we have known (and not loved) and dives we have done with DM guides.

I remember refusing to accept a buddy assignment with a DM who happened to be diving off the same boat. I knew this DM had just finished training and a week before had asked Fish what the hose was for that was connected to an air integrated computer! I figured if she knew that little about equipment I wasn't going to count on her dive skills! Watching her for a few minutes under water proved my concern was justified.

I remember another over-enthusiastic DM who announced to everyone "I am a DM now so you have to listen to and follow me!" WRONG! I was the least experienced diver in our group of 4 with over 300 hours bottom time. We dived regularly together..... Dave signaled Starburst pattern... we hit the bottom and each headed in different directions just long enough for the DM to give up trying to control us. The point is that the DM card does not necessarily qualifiy you to be in control/charge of every diver you hit the water with.

It is easy to see with 20/20 hindsight when the window of opportunity occurred in this incident. We decide that neither of us would be happy if some over reacting DM jumped on our tank and started trying to force us up to the surface because they decided we were doing something outside the dive pan or unsafe! What would we think? how would we react? could we feel endangered enough by someone we couldn't see to get out a dive knife?

Think about that for a minute..... you are doing something you feel competent to do... you feel you have everything under control.....what would go through your mind? Is this person a psycho? Do they think they are pulling some kind of joke? Is this person going to get me bent? Is this person after my tank/air? What if you have been having ear, sinus problems?

I know... what if you are Narc'd? Yeah what if the DM is? I remember on my 30M and 50M chamber dives the two young buck DM's were nark'd off their faces! I had to help them put their BIB masks on for the "deco stops". I did those chamber dives to find out safely how I would react to those pressures, how I would react to being nark'd and find my safe working parameters. Those chamber dives were a couple of the most important dives I will ever do! They sure showed me not to rely on anyone just because they have a piece of paper!

Forgive me for going back to my pet theory. Communication breakdown on the predive buddy interaction was the beginning of the end failure that occurred between this diver and DM.

[ItsBruce]

To CDNScubaMoose:

Thank you for your insights and observations and for undertaking the experiment. I think your "ground rules" or the experiment are just fine.

There is a significant difference between a diver who is ignoring a buddy's urging to ascend or who is being obstinate or who is wigged out and a diver who is consciously, actively and aggressively resisting ascending. If I'm going to aggressively resist ascending, my serrated dive knife will be in my hand and I will be aiming for an air hose. (I'm pretty sure my knife will cut it and next time I have to replace a hose, I will test this theory.)

I do not understand why some posters seem to think the description of the victim pushing the DM away equates with resisting. I see it as being obstinate or pig-headed, not as fighting against being brought to the surface.

All along I have questioned whether narcosis may have impacted the DM's ability to handle the situation once it got out of hand. It makes sense to me. Qualifying as a DM does not mean one is immune to narcosis. And getting narced at depth does not, to my understanding, disqualify one from being a DM. In any event narcosis could explain why the DM didn't grab the tank valve when she had the chance.

Now, I'm off to find an old hose. (Do not worry, it will not be under pressure.)

[ItsBruce]

It is easy to see with 20/20 hindsight when the window of opportunity occurred in this incident. We decide that neither of us would be happy if some over reacting DM jumped on our tank and started trying to force us up to the surface because they decided we were doing something outside the dive pan or unsafe! What would we think? how would we react? could we feel endangered enough by someone we couldn't see to get out a dive knife?

Think about that for a minute..... you are doing something you feel competent to do... you feel you have everything under control.....what would go through your mind?

I think you've hit the nail on the head.
I don't have a good answer here...other than that it is an issue I will start addressing during the pre-dive.

[divengolf]

Sounds strange to me too. I was involved with a couple of fatalities in the Bahamas (both later determined to be heart attacks) and it was just the Bahamian police investigating. Perhaps they are investigators for an insurance company (for either Stuart Cove's or Mr. Wood)?

That was my first reaction and would make sense. I've been involved in a couple business situations that involved potentially large insurance payouts. The insurance companies always hire their own investigators before any big $$ move. My guess is that they are representing a company with a life insurance policy on Ms. Wood. Proceeds may not be payable IF the death is ruled a suicide. I'm not implying that it was a suicide, but that is certainly one of the reasonable avenues of investigation-from the viewpoint of the insurance co.

[bowlofpetunias]

That was my first reaction and would make sense. I've been involved in a couple business situations that involved potentially large insurance payouts. The insurance companies always hire their own investigators before any big $$ move. My guess is that they are representing a company with a life insurance policy on Ms. Wood. Proceeds may not be payable IF the death is ruled a suicide. I'm not implying that it was a suicide, but that is certainly one of the reasonable avenues of investigation-from the viewpoint of the insurance co.

Don't know what the rules are in the States but in Canada suicide is covered after the first 12 months of a policy. It may be that the investigation is about apportioning blame so they company can recoup some or all of their costs... but this whole thing is just as speculative as the rest of the thread:popcorn:

I would be interesting to know who the Investigators are working for. I suppose it could be someone besides the insurers .... one wonders how unbiased an investigation it will be.... but others have questioned the police ulterior motives too:no:

[CDNScubaMoose]

Great post Moose and I like the idea of your experiment but I don't understand the part about the diver not being able to lie on his back. If I am trying to keep you from getting behind me I am going to do whatever necessary to make sure you don't. If you are talking about him/her lying on the bottom, just grab a strap and yank him up. I think you have to take that out of the rules.

In this incident there was no bottom that the victim could have used to block the DM from getting to the tank valve - the DM should have been able to get under the victim at some point. I don't think I'll go for the strap - if I come in from the front and I get that close then that means I am close enough for the victim to "remove" my mask and/or regulator.

There is a significant difference between a diver who is ignoring a buddy's urging to ascend or who is being obstinate or who is wigged out and a diver who is consciously, actively and aggressively resisting ascending. If I'm going to aggressively resist ascending, my serrated dive knife will be in my hand and I will be aiming for an air hose. (I'm pretty sure my knife will cut it and next time I have to replace a hose, I will test this theory.)

Hence why the "no weapons" rule - I know my DMC's waaaayyyy too well and that would be a loop hole they would jump through in a heart beat. I want to do this little test to help myself determine if it is possible to bring up someone who doesn't want to - as was suggested by some posters with a lot more experience then I have. I tend to agree with you that this was more of an obstinate situation then active resistance ... however if I can be successful with active resistance then a difficult person should be no problem.

[ItsBruce]

Ok, I sacrificed a hose for science. I hope PETAH (People for the Ethical Treatment of Air Hoses) does not object. Here is what I found:

A very sharp blade will not do a great deal of damage.
The serrated steak knife that is cut of to 1-1/2 inch (thanks DSS) that I wear on my BCD, will, in one stroke, go most of the way through the hose.
My Spyderco serrated knife will make mincemeat out of the hose.

Note: in my tests, my kid was holding the hose reasonably taut.

[alohagal]

From what I understand the DM in question was part of the crew and not a DM hired only to take care of Ms Wood, but after reading other posts it seems that may not have been the case. I emailed the dive invest guys only moments ago who were requesting the download from my dive computer that morning so hopefully we will know the true answer to this question soon.

You said earlier in this thread that you posted about what the DM in question had to say about this incident. Or that you did speak with her. Can you either direct me to that post or tell me what she had to say about "losing" Ms. Woods? I know it has been stated by people who were there...that she came up quite upset and turned her back to the divers on the boat and started talking on her cell phone. What did she say to you directly?

Appreciate your being here for this thread.

Thanks in Advance,
Mary

[dwhthediver]

I remember thinking to myself, if I am an insurance underwriter for a dive company, I think I want to write into their contract that they take all staff out "on maneuvres" at least once a year to practice rescue drills and really have the DMs put through their paces. When the time comes, somebody's life (lives?) are on the line, so let's prepare like that is what is at stake.

I wonder if many dive ops do things like that? It would be hard given the shoe-string budget that many operations are forced to run on.

Which is why I am so thankful that the shop I teach at requires us to do just that every April, and as far as I know, only shop in the area to require it.

[ScooterSouthFlorida]

I do not understand why some posters seem to think the description of the victim pushing the DM away equates with resisting. I see it as being obstinate or pig-headed, not as fighting against being brought to the surface.


I agree, there is a significant difference from someone being 'out of it' and offering up a confused resistence vs. 'ain't no one gonna take control of me down there when I gots my dive knife and am in control of my faculties and in control of my own destiny' scenario which everyone seems to be self-projecting onto this incident.

To CDN, I look forward to your findings on whether or not you can assume control of a diver during your test/experiment. It may open alot of eyes.

[ScubaSteve]

To CDN, I look forward to your findings on whether or not you can assume control of a diver during your test/experiment. It may open alot of eyes.

Only if those eyes are "OPEN" to being opened (and possibly corrected). We have some pretty stubborn SB members that are unlikely to give up their position. I think we have seen a lot of that in this thread.

None the less, I am interested to see what Mr. Moose :D comes up with. I had never really given that much thought about forcably fighting off someone that wanted to gain control over me underwater until this thread.....

[OneRestlessNative]

I applaud the deeper thought into the subject of experimentation and learning/teaching from this experience. BUT, (although I know the need to be safe) this experiment is semi biased and not indicative of a worst case scenario. Why not try a full frontal takeover? I know and it seems very obvious that the defender has full advantage to guard his back from being overtaken. Simply due to the fact the rescuer having the disadvantage of having to make huge maneuvers, versus the defender pivoting to counter and cover. Now lets add in a sheer wall, 6000' bottom, and all this happening at 100+' and descending....... That adds a whole new twist!
Some have stated that they would just grab a strap and that's all there is too it. Here again, I have to say that if you are in arms reach of me I could VERY easily inflict serious damage, or put you on a serious predicament to in more ways than one might initially think. Once you are in my grasp you are just as much at my mercy as I am yours. This situation could go bad very quickly, I don't think the argument of the deceased being female is a valid point either. I have known some VERY SCRAPPY women in my day!!!
As stated in the observations of the witness, his attention was with his buddy/wife as well (a VERY WISE decision if i may add!!!), and perhaps he did not see all of what transpired as well as what happened to prelude/antagonize the entire situation.
The true question here is: How much is one willing to do/risk their own well being and safety to save or rescue a combative or an arrogant person that is willingly defying all attempts and rational safe practice of this sport? AND how much is expected or required? No one can be trained to deal with EVERY experience. It is purely situational and one has to take their training and apply it accordingly to make the best and safest decision at that critical moment for the safety of everyone involved.

[Web Monkey]

I applaud the deeper thought into the subject of experimentation and learning/teaching from this experience. BUT, (although I know the need to be safe) this experiment is semi biased and not indicative of a worst case scenario. Why not try a full frontal takeover? I know and it seems very obvious that the defender has full advantage to guard his back from being overtaken. Simply due to the fact the rescuer having the disadvantage of having to make huge maneuvers, versus the defender pivoting to counter and cover. Now lets add in a sheer wall, 6000' bottom, and all this happening at 100+' and descending....... That adds a whole new twist!
Some have stated that they would just grab a strap and that's all there is too it. Here again, I have to say that if you are in arms reach of me I could VERY easily inflict serious damage, or put you on a serious predicament to in more ways than one might initially think. Once you are in my grasp you are just as much at my mercy as I am yours.

This is all fascinating, however it's also irrelevant. We're not talking about Enter the Ninja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TWn5tPZ0MM) or Navy SEALs. We're talking about an elderly woman who lacked the skills and/or confidence to dive without a DM.

Also, no "huge maneuvers" are necessary. The woman took off. Unless she had a rear-view mirror, she wouldn't have a clue who was following or what they were going to do.

I have absolutely no doubt that any properly trained professional who was assigned as her buddy and was paying attention could easily have prevented this fatality in any number of ways, including bringing her back to the surface if necessary.

Terry

[mikerault]

Gee, with all this "Don't blame the professional" going around I thought this was the AMA!

[Web Monkey]

The true question here is: How much is one willing to do/risk their own well being and safety to save or rescue a combative or an arrogant person that is willingly defying all attempts and rational safe practice of this sport?

"Safe practice" means preventing things like this before they happen.


AND how much is expected or required? No one can be trained to deal with EVERY experience. It is purely situational and one has to take their training and apply it accordingly to make the best and safest decision at that critical moment for the safety of everyone involved.

The point is that if the DM was doing her job, the "critical moment" would have happened at 70' where there's little risk and plenty of time, air and NDL, not down past the NDL where every choice becomes an in-your head SAC/Remaining Gas/Deco calculation.

I hate to play "throw the DM under the bus", but if the DM was in fact, assigned as the deceased's buddy, he/she really blew it.

Terry

[OneRestlessNative]

I am not challenging what you are saying the DM responsibility is. I am not wanting to re read 1000 posts for specifics to argue a point. I am merely stating that there is still some speculation in this case. As far as the elderly lady comment. My mom is almost 60 and will still give any grown man a good *** woopin. I am not talking ENTER THE NINJA or SEAL TRAINING but a well placed or random flailing chop to the esophagus per say ummm would leave you all but dead or critically wounded at 100+ feet. I am not here to argue points, maybe challenge a thought...yes. It seems that some here have this idea that they can, could, or would have done better? As the witness stated he did not have TOTAL situational awareness between the dive master and the victim from departure to time of death so everything and any judgement placed by anyone not involved is just speculation. I am merely adding my thoughts and opinions and challenging some of the preconceived notions that some seem to think they would without a doubt be able to prevent. I bet this dive master as well as a few other have stated, that the thought of a situation like this never occurred to them. I see and acknowledge most of the points in everyone's comments, but in the context of this specific case "if" is a huge Grey area, and I don't think anyone can TRULY say what they would or could do until placed in a "situation".

[scubadada]

This is all fascinating, however it's also irrelevant. We're not talking about Enter the Ninja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TWn5tPZ0MM) or Navy SEALs. We're talking about an elderly woman who lacked the skills and/or confidence to dive without a DM.

Also, no "huge maneuvers" are necessary. The woman took off. Unless she had a rear-view mirror, she wouldn't have a clue who was following or what they were going to do.

I have absolutely no doubt that any properly trained professional who was assigned as her buddy and was paying attention could easily have prevented this fatality in any number of ways, including bringing her back to the surface if necessary.

Terry

I've been following this thread since inception. Web Monkey is absolutely correct, a competent diver would have been able to gain control over the situation and bring it to an acceptable conclusion. I would certainly expect as much of myself.

On the other hand, if I wanted to escape rescue, I bet I could.

Good diving, Craig.

[LeadTurn_SD]

I've been following this thread since inception. Web Monkey is absolutely correct, a competent diver would have been able to gain control over the situation and bring it to an acceptable conclusion. I would certainly expect as much of myself.

On the other hand, if I wanted to escape rescue, I bet I could.

Good diving, Craig.

Yep.

The point we need to return to is the fact that in this incident the victim displayed "uncooperative" behavior, but nothing stated indictes the DM was in any danger from the victim.

If the victim wanted to actively escape and sprinted headlong for the bottom, and the DM was never able to catch up, that is a different story. As is a victim who presents a real threat to the rescuer.

Neither of those situations appear to apply here.

From what I've read, it appears that the DM was able to make physical contact with the victim (after the intial separation), tried to get the victim to return to shallower water, the victim brushed off the attempt and continued to descend, and the DM didn't know what to do next and let the victim get away agian, resulting in a fatal accident. There were no drawn knives, no masks and regulators ripped off, no underwater martial arts... just an unexpected situation that presented itself to an unready DM.

Best Wishes.

[bowlofpetunias]

Once again hindsight is 20/20... we know when the window of opportunity occurred in this case.

I don't say the DM was blameless but I can also see where the DM would be surprised at the response of being "brushed off" and have a:confused: moment!

The next time I indicate to my buddy that we should or shouldn't do something and don't get immediate compliance maybe I should hop on his tank and force him to the surface?

If you don't think a little old lady can be a handful you obviously have never had to restrain or try to control an Alzheimer's Patient.

I am afraid I think the person responsible for Mrs Woods' unfortunate demise is Mrs Wood. I think others may have some small share of the blame but that is all and IMHO the DM had the deck stacked against her from the moment she entered the water on this dive.

[Web Monkey]

I don't say the DM was blameless but I can also see where the DM would be surprised at the response of being "brushed off" and have a:confused: moment!

The next time I indicate to my buddy that we should or shouldn't do something and don't get immediate compliance maybe I should hop on his tank and force him to the surface?

If the dive plan is for a relatively shallow dive and you find your buddy heading off to 170'+, you wouldn't be much of a buddy if you didn't.

Terry

[CDNScubaMoose]

On a recent "chamber dive", I asked the attendent about some of the more interesting experiences he has had and the most interesting he had was when he took a group of police officers (from a dive team) to 135'. Apparently the group was made up almost exclusively of "Type A" personalities and under the effect of narcosis these personalities came out in full force and although things didn't get to a physical altercation state ... there was some raised voices and a lot of "opinions" of each other shared.

Based on this information, I could easily see the victims reported personality traits being a little more hightened at depth with the effect of narcosis and having experienced narcosis myself at shallower depths then I expected ... I can easily see the DM have a *** moment and not knowing how to respond until it was too late. IMHO, this is why all certified divers must be ultimately responsible for themselves and I have now started to encourage all divers to do a chamber dive so they can get a first hand experience of what narcosis can do and how early it can start to happen.

[ItsBruce]

I'm now at the point where trying to decide in my own mind if, based on what information we currently have, the DM "blew it" just makes my head hurt.

Did the DM miss the critical moment? Probably. Was that negligent? At the moment, I'm undecided.

[bowlofpetunias]

If the dive plan is for a relatively shallow dive and you find your buddy heading off to 170'+, you wouldn't be much of a buddy if you didn't.

Terry

My point is you don't go from shallow.... to 170'+ in an instant! What is your definition of relatively shallow and was it established exactly what depth they were going to be limited to? I acknowledge the DM missed the window of opportunity but I am with ItsBruce on this... I am not sure I can call that negligence. We also can't rule out the DM being Nark'd.

CDNScubaMoose I absolutely agree! I think my "chamber dives" were two of the most important dives I will ever do! People are willing to travel for the opportunity to dive with certain fish... well I think if you have to travel to get to do a chamber dive it is well worth leaving that fish for another day!

I am a much safer diver because of what I learned in that chamber about myself, my regular dive buddy and others. The Chamber tech separated normal buddies so we could watch each other on the screen without being nark'd. We learned a lot about each other that way too!

[LeadTurn_SD]

Once again hindsight is 20/20... we know when the window of opportunity occurred in this case.

I don't say the DM was blameless but I can also see where the DM would be surprised at the response of being "brushed off" and have a:confused: moment!

The next time I indicate to my buddy that we should or shouldn't do something and don't get immediate compliance maybe I should hop on his tank and force him to the surface?

If you don't think a little old lady can be a handful you obviously have never had to restrain or try to control an Alzheimer's Patient.

I am afraid I think the person responsible for Mrs Woods' unfortunate demise is Mrs Wood. I think others may have some small share of the blame but that is all and IMHO the DM had the deck stacked against her from the moment she entered the water on this dive.

Hi bowlofpetunias,

I understand and agree with most of what you are saying, but at this point I finally need to "come clean" and say that my comments are not so much "hindsight" as they are actually "deja vu".

I've been involved an eerily similar situation to the one described in this incident, but the outcome was far happier.

With out going into full and boring detail, it involved a tropical location, a sheer drop off, depth, narcosis, a non-coopperative diver, and initial confusion by the dive leader as to what to do next as not one but two potential victims swam deeper after being warned to stop and brushed off the leader. And yes, it did require that the dive leader physically grab and then swim one of them up into shallower water while the other followed.

I was the designated "dive leader", and was 19 years old at the time. I was just a "regular" diver, not a dive professional of any kind.

The two divers I "brought up" from the depths were a fortyish father and his teenage son. The dad had been diving longer than I had, but had less recent dive experience and less experience at depth (I did not know that until later).

They would either have been bent or dead and I not intervened and "physically" stopped them. The dad was narc'ed, and the son was following him.

The situation I found myself in (uncooperative diver that ignored a warning to not go any deeper) was indeed very confusing, and I understand the confusion the DM must have felt.

But the DM also knew, like I knew, that if the divers continued to descend, bad things were probably going to happen.

To prevent an injury or fatality, you may be forced to physically intervene. Most of us will have a pretty good idea when "it's time" to do this. I did not see any other option in the incident I was involved in, and I don't see another option for the DM in this accident. She had warned Mrs. Woods, gotten brushed-off, and at that point should have decided "it's time" and physically stopped Mrs. Woods.

I do feel for the DM, can fully understand the confusion she felt and how bad she must now feel.

Best wishes.

[scubadada]

Hi bowlofpetunias,

I understand and agree with most of what you are saying, but at this point I finally need to "come clean" and say that my comments are not so much "hindsight" as they are actually "deja vu".

I've been involved an eerily similar situation to the one described in this incident, but the outcome was far happier.

With out going into full and boring detail, it involved a tropical location, a sheer drop off, depth, narcosis, a non-coopperative diver, and initial confusion by the dive leader as to what to do next as not one but two potential victims swam deeper after being warned to stop and brushed off the leader. And yes, it did require that the dive leader physically grab and then swim one of them up into shallower water while the other followed.

I was the designated "dive leader", and was 19 years old at the time. I was just a "regular" diver, not a dive professional of any kind.

The two divers I "brought up" from the depths were a fortyish father and his teenage son. The dad had been diving longer than I had, but had less recent dive experience and less experience at depth (I did not know that until later).

They would either have been bent or dead and I not intervened and "physically" stopped them. The dad was narc'ed, and the son was following him.

The situation I found myself in (uncooperative diver that ignored a warning to not go any deeper) was indeed very confusing, and I understand the confusion the DM must have felt.

But the DM also knew, like I knew, that if the divers continued to descend, bad things were probably going to happen.

To prevent an injury or fatality, you may be forced to physically intervene. Most of us will have a pretty good idea when "it's time" to do this. I did not see any other option in the incident I was involved in, and I don't see another option for the DM in this accident. She had warned Mrs. Woods, gotten brushed-off, and at that point should have decided "it's time" and physically stopped Mrs. Woods.

I do feel for the DM, can fully understand the confusion she felt and how bad she must now feel.

Best wishes.

Thanks for the post LeadTurn_SD. I hope I'm able to act as admirably if or when "it's time" for me.

Most appreciatively, Craig

[Web Monkey]

My point is you don't go from shallow.... to 170'+ in an instant! What is your definition of relatively shallow and was it established exactly what depth they were going to be limited to?

Even if there had been no explicit depth limit, a reasonable person would assume a depth limit appropriate for the C-Card the diver presented, and the equipment and available gas.

As a DiveCon, if someone hires me as a buddy and shows me an OW card and an AL 80, I'm going to assume a max depth of around 60', would start getting concerned with anything much deeper, and would take action if the decent continued. A bunch of dives and AOW or better might get to 80' - 90'.

Terry

[awap]

Even if there had been no explicit depth limit, a reasonable person would assume a depth limit appropriate for the C-Card the diver presented, and the equipment and available gas.

As a DiveCon, if someone hires me as a buddy and shows me an OW card and an AL 80, I'm going to assume a max depth of around 60', would start getting concerned with anything much deeper, and would take action if the decent continued. A bunch of dives and AOW or better might get to 80' - 90'.

Terry

My OW card took me to over 100 ft quite regularly. Do you get hired often by certified divers for such dives?

[Web Monkey]

My OW card took me to over 100 ft quite regularly. Do you get hired often by certified divers for such dives?

When I posted, I already knew you or someone else was going to pop up and say exactly what you did.

You aren't the issue because the chances of you hiring a DM to be your buddy are somewhere between "snowball's chance in hell" and "none"

At the request of the diver, the shop will ask me to be the diver's buddy. We go out and have a nice, safe quiet dive with no extreme depths, no drama, injuries, "OOA" incidents or descents significantly beyond certification limits.

If this isn't "exciting" enough, the diver is welcome to come back next time with their own buddy and do anything that makes them happy.

Terry

[mrlipis]

Webmonkey, with all do respect, you are continually basing your argument on an assumption that Mrs. Wood hired this DM. Furthermore, while it would be nice if all DMs checked C cards and assessed the divers ability, we know it isn't happening like it should be and PADI sits on the sidelines and does nothing. The death of Brendan in the Caymans is the most recent example.

[Web Monkey]

Webmonkey, with all do respect, you are continually basing your argument on an assumption that Mrs. Wood hired this DM.

Hiring is irrelevant.

According to a post way back in the beginning of the thread: "I was also the first out follow by the DM or a guy and his wife who told me that the DM and her partner had got split"

The DM was Mrs. Woods' buddy and had the responsibility to be, at the very least, a "good buddy".

Furthermore, while it would be nice if all DMs checked C cards and assessed the divers ability, we know it isn't happening like it should be and PADI sits on the sidelines and does nothing. The death of Brendan in the Caymans is the most recent example.However, regardless of whether cards were checked (or the DM was Mrs Woods buddy or not), the DM had physical contact with Mrs Woods while still at a reasonable depth, and did not stop her descent even though she was exhibiting irrational behavior by continuing her descent.

I beleive a professional has the responsibility to do whatever can be safely done, to prevent unnecessary death and injury. If that means pissing off a customer, all I can say "too bad". It's a risk I'll take every time in exchange for avoiding a fatality.

Nobody is saying that the DM should have gone down hundreds of feet to rescue the deceased (the OP says that bubbles were visible @ 170', which means they were originating from at least 270'+, given 100;+ vis.). I know that I wouldn't do it. I also won't do rocket ascents from great depths to stop a run-away diver from surfacing. These are all extremely dangerous.

However if a professional or even a good buddy finds a diver alone, at a depth greater than everybody else, and continuing to descend, it's reasonable to stop the disaster before it starts.

Terry

[awap]

You aren't the issue because the chances of you hiring a DM to be your buddy are somewhere between "snowball's chance in hell" and "none"

At the request of the diver, the shop will ask me to be the diver's buddy. We go out and have a nice, safe quiet dive with no extreme depths, no drama, injuries, "OOA" incidents or descents significantly beyond certification limits.

If this isn't "exciting" enough, the diver is welcome to come back next time with their own buddy and do anything that makes them happy.

Terry

Actually, my wife and I have hired a DM in Cozumel to accompany us just a couple years ago. He was a new DM that I liked and they were not going to dive him that day. So I asked for him to go with us.

I still don't think we know why the DM was "buddied" with Mrs. Woods or what the Woods' expectations were.

[ScubaSteve]

I still don't think we know why the DM was "buddied" with Mrs. Woods or what the Woods' expectations were.

But as a buddy, is there not certain expectations that one can have? Perhaps those are even a little bit higher when the buddy is a Pro....I believe that is what Terry is getting at.

[awap]

But as a buddy, is there not certain expectations that one can have? Perhaps those are even a little bit higher when the buddy is a Pro....I believe that is what Terry is getting at.

I don't expect much if it has not been discussed and planned in advance. I'm always amazed when diver A complains his buddy, diver B was 10 meters away from him. Doesn't that mean that diver B's buddy was also 10 meters away.

And I'm not sure how I would react if a pick-up buddy resisted my attempts to coordinate or control our current dive. If I encountered physical resistance and did not detect some problem, I'd might well just wave goodbye before getting into a situation I was not planning on.

[ScubaSteve]

I don't expect much if it has not been discussed and planned in advance. I'm always amazed when diver A complains his buddy, diver B was 10 meters away from him. Doesn't that mean that diver B's buddy was also 10 meters away.

And I'm not sure how I would react if a pick-up buddy resisted my attempts to coordinate or control our current dive. If I encountered physical resistance and did not detect some problem, I'd might well just wave goodbye before getting into a situation I was not planning on.

So you would need it to be discussed ahead of time that your buddy would expect that you would stop them from doing something stupid (swimming deeper into the abyss) if they seemed to be acting odd (possibly narc'd)? I would think that would be a given, but that is just me I suppose.

[awap]

So you would need it to be discussed ahead of time that your buddy would expect that you would stop them from doing something stupid (swimming deeper into the abyss) if they seemed to be acting odd (possibly narc'd)? I would think that would be a given, but that is just me I suppose.

Once I am confronted with physical resistance, it is a new ballgame. I'd be signaling, but I doubt if I would physically approach again unless it was quite clear to me the diver needed or wanted help and I was not exposing myself to harm trying to aid a diver who did not want help.

I'm probably not going to put myself at risk for some unknown buddy who decides that the planned 80 ft dive is a great opportunity for him to go for his 140 ft depth record after he pushes me away at 100 ft and continues a controlled descent. And, if he then continues that descent past 140, I'll watch as he and his bubbles disappear so I can relocate the exact spot.

One of my regular buddies would, of course, be a different story.

[ScubaSteve]

I agree that NOT putting yourself at risk is an easy decision. New buddy or not. I too would likely fight harder for someone I knew well. However, I think you agreed through your words that you would do something to turn the diver around. That was my point.....that some things should be expected of a good buddy (and yes this should be reciprocal) to varying degrees which are impacted by relationship, severity of the situation etc.. If confronted by aggression, I am not sure that I would continue the rescue.....I suppose it depends. I would stop when I felt that the diver would pose a serious risk to my own safety. But up until that point, I would do what I can to get them "back". I am not going to pull the macho "they'd never get past me" crap.....I would try my darndest and I would have to live with whatever the results were...good or bad. I personally believe that that should be expected of a buddy. The outcome will vary but a diver should be allowed to expect that much effort of a buddy.

Once I am confronted with physical resistance, it is a new ballgame. I'd be signaling, but I doubt if I would physically approach again unless it was quite clear to me the diver needed or wanted help and I was not exposing myself to harm trying to aid a diver who did not want help.

I'm probably not going to put myself at risk for some unknown buddy who decides that the planned 80 ft dive is a great opportunity for him to go for his 140 ft depth record after he pushes me away at 100 ft and continues a controlled descent. And, if he then continues that descent past 140, I'll watch as he and his bubbles disappear so I can relocate the exact spot.

One of my regular buddies would, of course, be a different story.

[boulderjohn]

I still don't think we know why the DM was "buddied" with Mrs. Woods or what the Woods' expectations were.

This very question has been gnawing at me for some time, so I went back through this whole blessed thread and pulled out a couple quotes from people who were close to the situation and/or the victim personally. There were more on the topic--these are representative. I am doing this to remind us of something that was once an important part of the debate but lately seems to be forgotten.

Point One: The decision to hire a personal DM for Mrs. Woods was made at the last second and delayed the departure of the boat. It is likely that she did not herself initiate the hiring, and she may have been unhappy about it.


The procurement for a private DM, is also said to be at the very last minute. To the extent that the boat was unable to leave until Mrs Wood returned from the dive shop having procured 3. as a private DM.
With the benefit of hind sight one would surly have suggested a refresher course that would have been performed at a "bottomed" site rather than placing the responsibility upon a DM, the moral perhaps is that the Customer isn't always right.........



First, if this was a last minute procurment of the DM before the boat could leave, I'm guessing thats because when everyone was being signed in on that boat she was discovered to have not dived for more than 3 years and should have had a refresher. I say this because when I was there, the DM on our boat (short fiesty gal whom I can't remember her name) asked this of a diver and when she discovered he hadn't dove in 3 years, kicked him off for the refresher in the pool. He was then ferried out to join the group on the second dive.


Dantheengineer stated that the personal DM was a last minute thing and the boat couldn't leave until she had one.

This would lead me to believe that she hadn't dove in 3 years, or in light of the recent info, she had health problems and they required the DM.


Point Two: Mrs. Woods is described by acquaintances as being aggressive and headstrong to the point of being rude.

No, it was not speculation. My friend was very familiar with Mrs. Wood, he worked with her professionally. He reported that she had a stroke recently, he did not mention the severity. He also mentioned that in normal life she had an aggressive manner, hearing that she was agitated and reacted the way she did during this mishap was not completely out of character for her.

... It may be that she felt this might be her last chance ever to dive, her husband was concerned for her safety and they found a compromise in hiring a DM to be her buddy "just in case". From what I was told by a friend of hers, she rarely took no for an answer and her strength of personality was high.


I worked with Radha for over 6 years in Orinda. When she first spoke with me about diving I was very suprised she got certified without ever learning to swim! I did my best to convince her diving and not being able to swim was a deadly mixture. I am a DM myself and tried as I may I could not talk sense into her. I'm very sorry to hear about her accident, but it was bound to happen. I didn't hear about the stroke the month prior to the accident, but I do know she had one about a year and a half ago. Jayjones post #372 mentioned Radha's being, shall we say a little head strong, that's putting it mildly. Not to speak ill of the dead but she could be very pushy/rude and had definate opinions on things and didn't care about yours.
As a diver I'm sad to hear of the loss, it hurts us all. As a person, well that's a different story, shall I say, I have a definate opinion on that myself it's probably better I don't share openly.

[Steve50]

This very question has been gnawing at me for some time, so I went back through this whole blessed thread and pulled out a couple quotes from people who were close to the situation and/or the victim personally. There were more on the topic--these are representative. I am doing this to remind us of something that was once an important part of the debate but lately seems to be forgotten.

Point One: The decision to hire a personal DM for Mrs. Woods was made at the last second and delayed the departure of the boat. It is likely that she did not herself initiate the hiring, and she may have been unhappy about it.



Point Two: Mrs. Woods is described by acquaintances as being aggressive and headstrong to the point of being rude.

Thanks and my condolences ;)

[boulderjohn]

If Mrs. Woods was an aggressive and rude person who did not want to have a DM and was angry about other imposed limitations on her dive, then it could easily explain the initial separation of the two. Let's say the DM said, "We will not be going deeper than 60 feet" and Mrs. Woods thought, "That's what you think." In that case, a separation is not only explainable but likely.

A DM who is not expecting her assigned buddy to bolt will not be watching her every second but will instead be doing normal DM stuff at times, like looking into holes for interesting critters. If Mrs. Woods is waiting for just such an opportunity to take off deeper, then there will be a separation. The DM's first response upon noticing the separation would be to remind her with a signal--which witnesses reported seeing. When there was no response from the signal, the DM would take off in pursuit--which witnesses also reported seeing.

Once the DM made contact and was physically rebuffed, we should expect that the DM would have the physical capacity to overcome that. In the scenario I described, the only thing that does not make perfect sense to me in terms of this incident is the failure of the DM to overcome the physical resistance.

[awap]

Once the DM made contact and was physically rebuffed, we should expect that the DM would have the physical capacity to overcome that. In the scenario I described, the only thing that does not make perfect sense to me in terms of this incident is the failure of the DM to overcome the physical resistance.

I would not assume that a DM should or would have the physical capacity to overcome the physical resistance from Mrs. Woods. More importantly, I would not be the least surprised if the DM was so taken aback by the physical encounter that she initially withdrew. That could easily leave a determined diver plenty of opportunity to continue a descent beyond a depth that the DM could be expected to make another attempt to gain control over the resistant diver.

I don't believe I have seen anything that would contradict a hypothesis that Mrs Woods committed suicide and that the DM was a last minute addition to provide credibility to finding of accidental death.

I feel sorry for the loss of Mrs Woods but I also feel sorry for the poor DM and dive op.

[boulderjohn]

More importantly, I would not be the least surprised if the DM was so taken aback by the physical encounter that she initially withdrew. That could easily leave a determined diver plenty of opportunity to continue a descent beyond a depth that the DM could be expected to make another attempt to gain control over the resistant diver.


That could be possible. The scenario is extremely unusual, and the DM could have been very confused about what was happening.

Suicide is not necessarily the intention, though. The same result could have occurred had Mrs. Woods gone on down, headstrong and excited, until she was at such a great depth that any of a number of things could have happened.

[bowlofpetunias]

It may have been nothing more than a strong willed person demonstrating her dominance to the upstart young DM who was not prepared for a battle of wills in defiance of logic. Many people find it hard to accept direction from a "youngster". Description of Mrs Wood's would make her a prime candidate for this scenario.

[awap]

Yes, there are explanations other than suicide. Strong willed and an unfortunate accident is clearly a possibility but leaves me wondering why the husband was not buddied with his wife.

[awap]

Yes, there are explanations other than suicide. Strong willed and an unfortunate accident is clearly a possibility but leaves me wondering why the husband was not buddied with his wife. I suspect these are things investigators will try to answer.

[bowlofpetunias]

Could be he enjoyed the chance to get away and do something on his own. We had some friends who hated to buddy together... they would actually argue underwater! They enjoyed diving a lot better buddied with others... sad IMHO since my husband is my favourite person to buddy with.

[awap]

Could be he enjoyed the chance to get away and do something on his own. We had some friends who hated to buddy together... they would actually argue underwater! They enjoyed diving a lot better buddied with others... sad IMHO since my husband is my favourite person to buddy with.

Yes, if that is an established behavior pattern, I'm sure the investigation will note that. I see the potential for a new CSI style program here.

[cappyjon431]

A headstrong diver not willing to take direction from a young DM and wanting to dive deeper is certainly a possibility. I think it is clear that Mrs. Wood did show personality characteristics that would support this hypothesis. If you buy this explanation, then the logic behind it could/should equally be applied to suicide--a willful diver intent on ending her own life could be just as obstinate (maybe more so). The logic applies equally to both scenarios. It is easy to pick certain facts to support a conclusion (I use "facts" rather loosely because all of this is second hand, based on subjective decriptions of her behavior based on past encounters. Some people might describe me as gentle and easygoing, while others might describe me as an aggressive bully). I could easily cite certain "facts" to support the suicide hypothesis. For instance, she was elderly and in failing health, two possible motivations for suicide.

Either of these theories could be argued equally, but the same logic must be applied to both scenarios. Without being inside the victim's head, and without some additional outside evidence, there is a strong possibility that we will never know exactly what happened.

[Jim Lapenta]

Webmonkey, with all do respect, you are continually basing your argument on an assumption that Mrs. Wood hired this DM. Furthermore, while it would be nice if all DMs checked C cards and assessed the divers ability, we know it isn't happening like it should be and PADI sits on the sidelines and does nothing. The death of Brendan in the Caymans is the most recent example.

And most likely not the last unfortunately. I am doing an AOW class with the OP from that thread and her husband next weekend. They are traveling from North Carolina to Pennsylvania to take my AOW class that addresses many of these issues and those involving being responsible for yourself. Any time dive pros fail to recognize problems before they start the potential for an accident is there. One of those times is with divers who feel they know everything and will do just as they please. If I'm not mistaken Cappyjon had one of those not too long ago. They are headstrong, adverse to taking direction and pose a threat not only to themselves but other divers and any pros who may be charged with guiding them.

If the deceased truly needed a buddy other than her husband this to me is a red flag. Why do they not want to dive together? I want that clear before I assign a Dm to the person. Is it because of differences in skill, experience, or lack of it? In which case maybe I take em to a safe site with a hard bottom or insist on a checkout dive first. If they choose to go somewhere else oh well. If there was any indication of a medical issue perhaps that person goes as a bubble watcher or not at all. If they fail to disclose issues that pose a risk to staff then why should staff risk their lives to protect a liar or deceitful person? If this woman had the reputation that she seems to then that is usually not a hidden thing. Better to let them get pissed an go elsewhere than deal with them.

I;ve been around many like this when employed where interaction with the general public is required. Before my present job I spent many years in the grocery business as a butcher. My grandfather taught me the trade starting at age 8. For over 20 years I put up with nasty, picky, evil tempered people that were satisfied with nothing. They enjoyed running you down and demonstrating their self importance. Their lives and opinions were miles above everyone else's. And they did not fail to let you know it. If they had money they were even worse.

These were the ones that no one wanted to wait on. THere would be straws drawn, coins flipped, seniority pulled to get out of dealing with these people. It was one of the major reasons for me getting out of the business. But then there were those whose kindness, sincerity, and respect for the fact that you were preparing their food that made some of that easier to deal with. But for me there were not enough of those people.

But the former were easily identified and pose problems that have to be dealt with if the person so chooses to. I'd like to know what Mrs Woods behavior was like prior to the dive. How did she interact with the others on the boat? Was she exhibiting any signs of stress or agitation? If so why was she allowed in the water? If acting as a personal DM I would be trying to engage them in conversation. Find out recent experience, diving style, air consumption, and their interests. If I encountered any behavior that struck me as odd I;d let someone else know and perhaps refuse to dive with the person.

Her age may have also given the DM a false sense of security. How many here would really expect a 67 yr old female vaction diver to take off for 140 or deeper? Factor in Narcosis of the DM and the resistance of the victim to assistance and I'm willing to give the DM more slack now. I feel confident I could have handled the situation but can't say for sure since I was not there. And then if indeed the DM had succeeded in forcing Mrs Woods to the surface and that had caused a medical issue what then? Or if in the course of doing this the DM had been injured? All over what appears to be more and more of a case of a mean person bent on doing themselves in. Maybe I missed it but has the body even been recovered? What is the coroners inquest or it;s equivalent saying? How is the DM dealing with it? I was one of those who initially faulted her but as more and more came out it seems that the person responsible for causing the most damage, pain, and trouble was the victim.

[Ann Marie]

As an instructor, during my rescue courses I teach students not to make decisions that could cause the rescuer to become a victim as well. Ms. Woods was a certified diver and as such she was ultimately responsible for her decisions. If the DM was hired as a buddy, then she had buddy responsibilities but those did not include risking her life for Ms. Woods.

Say I was diving with my buddy and I dropped a piece of equipment like my camera (he didn't see it falling) and I started down after it. He comes down and grabs me, I push him away and plan just to chase the camera a little further to see if I can catch it. Oops, I'm down at 130 feet and am now narked. I continue to head down because my judgment is impaired. Is my buddy to blame? Should he have risked his life to try and save mine? Perhaps Ms. Woods saw something that she wanted to investigate more and was not impaired at all when she pushed the DM away.

Occasionally I'll hear someone say, "My buddy was so far away from me during that dive!" I'm always tempted to respond, "Your buddy is probably saying the same thing". Being a buddy is a two-way street.

I don't know what their dive plan was prior to getting into the water. If Ms. Woods decided to deviate from that plan, that's a decision that Ms. Woods made as a responsible certified SCUBA diver.

[ItsBruce]

... I don't believe I have seen anything that would contradict a hypothesis that Mrs Woods committed suicide and that the DM was a last minute addition to provide credibility to finding of accidental death.

Maybe so; maybe not so. I suppose that suicide cannot be ruled out. But that does not support the hypothesis either.

The one thing that might be evidence against suicide is that had the DM been right on top of the situation, she could likely have prevented Mrs. Woods' death. A number of people around here are positive that they could have brought Mrs. Woods safely to the surface.

[ItsBruce]

Have I mentioned how really impressed I am with the quality of the discussion and analysis here? Or with the apparent caliber of so many of the divers who are posting here?

If not, then let me say: I am quite impressed.

[ScooterSouthFlorida]

As an instructor, during my rescue courses I teach students not to make decisions that could cause the rescuer to become a victim as well. Ms. Woods was a certified diver and as such she was ultimately responsible for her decisions. If the DM was hired as a buddy, then she had buddy responsibilities but those did not include risking her life for Ms. Woods.

:shocked2:
Wow...... I mean no disrespect and am trying to position myself as politely as possible as a 'devil's advocate,' but for an Instructor to say that when a DM is hired as a buddy they ONLY have 'buddy' responsibilities is pretty appalling....

Once you are 'certified' as a DM, you have responsibilities that are now higher/above the normal 'buddy' responsibilities whether you are for hire or not. If you can't accept that, don't get your ticket punched with DM on it.

[onlyhalcyon]

I'm inclined to side with Ann Marie on this. We all know that to get a DM cert you only need to log the required dives and pay the money to PADI its not very difficult if you take a a resort job with a dive company at a holiday destination. Holding a DM cert in no way makes that person instantly a better diver than every one else on the dive, if you think that then you really need a reality check. I think DM's that own their own biz and dive, or belong to a club and frequently dive because they choose to are far better than young resort DM's who are there more than likely to enjoy a tropical lifestlye, free diving while earning a minimal amount of cash to get by.
It is foolish to expect these young DM's to be to one to save the day when it hits the fan. Its not to say that this is the case with all resort DM's but I would say more than 50% of the ones I have met.

My 2 Cents

[stadevene]

What I believe Ann Marie is saying (or how I interpret the comment) is there comes a point where the DM has to look out for her own well being. It's akin to a fireman who looks at a burning building and has to decide if they are going in to rescue someone trapped on the 5th floor.

Regardless of where the mistakes were made surrounding this dive, the reality is there was a diver very deep and steadily dropping. It's at this point which I think Ann Marie is eluding to. At that second the DM has to decide if she is going to risk her life further and go after this diver or not (is she going into the burning building that's on the verge of collapse).

The DM chose not to and I don't think any of us have a right to pass judgment on this decision. She's the one who is going to have to live with this nightmare for the rest of her life and play the perpetual what if game.

All we can do is learn from this so we can avoid a similar situation. I know I've got a number of takeaways from this thread and I thank everyone involved for that. I've thought back to dives I've been on where things like buddy distance and pre-dive planning could be improved. I'll be a better diver and buddy when I'm back in the water in September.

[Thalassamania]

What I believe Ann Marie is saying (or how I interpret the comment) is there comes a point where the DM has to look out for her own well being. It's akin to a fireman who looks at a burning building and has to decide if they are going in to rescue someone trapped on the 5th floor.I do not think that you're simile holds up. My perception is that she barely peeked in the door.

Regardless of where the mistakes were made surrounding this dive, the reality is there was a diver very deep and steadily dropping. It's at this point which I think Ann Marie is eluding to. At that second the DM has to decide if she is going to risk her life further and go after this diver or not (is she going into the burning building that's on the verge of collapse).
Hardly "very deep." Hardly much risk to life or limb, nothing was about to collapse.

The DM chose not to and I don't think any of us have a right to pass judgment on this decision. She's the one who is going to have to live with this nightmare for the rest of her life and play the perpetual what if game.
Sorry, I claim that right. At least she gets to live, the victim does not.

All we can do is learn from this so we can avoid a similar situation. I know I've got a number of takeaways from this thread and I thank everyone involved for that. I've thought back to dives I've been on where things like buddy distance and pre-dive planning could be improved. I'll be a better diver and buddy when I'm back in the water in September.In terms of buddy distance, and dive planning ... I'm exactly the same diver that I was last week, last month, last year, last decade, I see no need to change.

[boulderjohn]

I'm inclined to side with Ann Marie on this. We all know that to get a DM cert you only need to log the required dives and pay the money to PADI its not very difficult if you take a a resort job with a dive company at a holiday destination.

A couple of points:

1. It takes a heck of a lot more than that to get a DM cert. You may be thinking of the master diver cert, which is very different.

2. It is not easy to get a DM job holiday resort. In fact, someone applying for such a job with nothing more on the resume than a DM certification has little or no chance.

3. The DM in this case was actually an instructor.

[bsee65]

A couple of points:

1. It takes a heck of a lot more than that to get a DM cert. You may be thinking of the master diver cert, which is very different.

2. It is not easy to get a DM job holiday resort. In fact, someone applying for such a job with nothing more on the resume than a DM certification has little or no chance.

3. The DM in this case was actually an instructor.

I am in agreement here, but wanted to add a couple other points.

When a DM is hired to be a buddy, maybe they do only have buddy responsibilities but...

First, they better be the perfect buddy. There's no excuse for someone who has been all the way through instructor training and actually working in the bsiness to have bad buddy skills or a problem reacting to most typical issues under water. The DM should have an idea where she might get narced, and be prepared to recognize and deal with it if her buddy was narced.

Second, as a hired buddy, you're diving as a job, not for pleasure. There's even less excuse to find yourself separated from your buddy because you shouldn't become focussed on anything else or drift off to get a closer look at something you might find interesting. Normally, when buddies get separated, both bear some responsibility, but not so in this case. It's not the hired buddy's dive. This is where it diverges from what I would consider the responsibilities of a highly-trained diver just paired up with someone on a rec dive.

One other thought:
There's been much discussion about Mrs. Wood relative to her state of mind. People wonder if she was narced, suicidal, or just headstrong and ignorant. Does it matter? From the discussion we have and the description of her actions and the DM's responses, we have it narrowed down to those few alternatives and see no means of selecting between them with certainty. If it is possible that she was narced based upon her outward behavior, then the DM should have been able to deal with her as such. I have to agree with Thal's comments on this one. It doesn't appear that any rescue attempt was made based upon what has been described here. An attempt to advise was followed by a more aggressive attempt to advise. There may have been more, but we don't have the DM's story first hand to hear exactly what was done.

[boulderjohn]

I

One other thought:
There's been much discussion about Mrs. Wood relative to her state of mind. People wonder if she was narced, suicidal, or just headstrong and ignorant. Does it matter?

I think it does.

If she was purposefully attempting to elude a DM she did not want and who she felt was imposed upon her, we are in a very different situation. A DM would have to recognize that this extraordinary situation is in effect in order to deal with it effectively. The DM's normal gentle reminders to follow the dive plan will be singularly ineffective. I don't know how often DMs have to deal with divers running away from them, but I imagine she did not have a lot of experience with that. One could argue that she should have recognized that something was wrong when she was pushed away, but at that point she would have to decide what to do. Do I overpower this renegade diver (paying customer) and haul her back to the boat, or do I let her go and deal with it later?

[mikerault]

"Do I overpower this renegade diver (paying customer) and haul her back to the boat, or do I let her go and deal with it later?"


Now she (the DM) gets to deal with it for the rest of her life. Not a very good choice.

[bsee65]

I think it does.

If she was purposefully attempting to elude a DM she did not want and who she felt was imposed upon her, we are in a very different situation. A DM would have to recognize that this extraordinary situation is in effect in order to deal with it effectively. The DM's normal gentle reminders to follow the dive plan will be singularly ineffective. I don't know how often DMs have to deal with divers running away from them, but I imagine she did not have a lot of experience with that. One could argue that she should have recognized that something was wrong when she was pushed away, but at that point she would have to decide what to do. Do I overpower this renegade diver (paying customer) and haul her back to the boat, or do I let her go and deal with it later?

But, John, if she was fighting back because she was under the effects of Nitrogen and wanted to go down, how is that any different from fighting for some other reason? Are you saying that a narced diver wouldn't resist an attempt to be brought up?

[onlyhalcyon]

The word 'fighting' in this thread isn't really the right word. There was very little struggle and attempts to gain the attention of Ms Wood were more in line with trying to get her attention from where I was. Everyone should remeber that even though Ms Wood didnt drop like a rock and the event took place over a few minutes it does take time for the brain to process the info. I felt it myself. Lets face it almost none of us will ever see a diver swim into certain harm right infront of of eyes. From my own prespective, I initialy thought that she had seen a shark and was going to check it out and thats what perked my interest, and then you see the diver go deeper and alittle further away and before you know it she is too deep and the distance is too far to safely bridge. All the while trying to process the info based on prev exp that divers do not simply swim off into the blue on perfect sunny days/ good viz / perfect dive conditions on resort dives. If the the water was rough and was raining with a strong ciurrent I feel divers enter the water with a different mind set, than perfect conditions and there fore it takes longer to process what is happening when something actually goes wrong.

[ItsBruce]

I simply want to remind everyone that hindsight is 20/20.

[Ann Marie]

:shocked2:
Wow...... I mean no disrespect and am trying to position myself as politely as possible as a 'devil's advocate,' but for an Instructor to say that when a DM is hired as a buddy they ONLY have 'buddy' responsibilities is pretty appalling....

Once you are 'certified' as a DM, you have responsibilities that are now higher/above the normal 'buddy' responsibilities whether you are for hire or not. If you can't accept that, don't get your ticket punched with DM on it.

Perhaps I wasn't clear on what I "meant" to say. I agree completly with what I put in red. A DM should have the training to recognize and react to problems.

What I was trying to get at was that if the DM recognized that there was a problem when it would have put her life at risk, I don't blame her for not risking her life in an attemt to save Ms. Woods.

[Ann Marie]

The word 'fighting' in this thread isn't really the right word. There was very little struggle and attempts to gain the attention of Ms Wood were more in line with trying to get her attention from where I was. Everyone should remeber that even though Ms Wood didnt drop like a rock and the event took place over a few minutes it does take time for the brain to process the info. I felt it myself. Lets face it almost none of us will ever see a diver swim into certain harm right infront of of eyes. From my own prespective, I initialy thought that she had seen a shark and was going to check it out and thats what perked my interest, and then you see the diver go deeper and alittle further away and before you know it she is too deep and the distance is too far to safely bridge. All the while trying to process the info based on prev exp that divers do not simply swim off into the blue on perfect sunny days/ good viz / perfect dive conditions on resort dives. If the the water was rough and was raining with a strong ciurrent I feel divers enter the water with a different mind set, than perfect conditions and there fore it takes longer to process what is happening when something actually goes wrong.

That is what I was trying to get at in my analogy with the camera.

What I don't understand in this (perhaps it was discussed before) was that if the Instructor was hired to be Ms. Woods buddy (is this true?) then she should have been closer to her and might have been able to handle this with a better outcome. If she had been closer, she could have then forced Ms. Woods to a more shallow depth and then to the surface.

One of the skills taught in a rescue course is how to deal with 'incorporative' divers. If she had been close enough, she should have been taught that if she came behind the person, she could gain control by grabbing the tank and keeping herself away from Ms. Woods grasp. I feel sorry for the Instructor, I can't imagine the 'what ifs' she's going through.

[boulderjohn]

What I don't understand in this (perhaps it was discussed before) was that if the Instructor was hired to be Ms. Woods buddy (is this true?) then she should have been closer to her and might have been able to handle this with a better outcome.

The question was whether or not Mrs. Wood wanted to hire the DM. There is a good indication that she was required to do this against her will by the operator because she had not been diving for a while,she and may have intentionally tried to lose her unwanted buddy.

[boulderjohn]

But, John, if she was fighting back because she was under the effects of Nitrogen and wanted to go down, how is that any different from fighting for some other reason? Are you saying that a narced diver wouldn't resist an attempt to be brought up?

I am not speculating as to the degree to which she was narced. My suspicion is simply that she did not want a DM buddy restricting her dive and took active steps to get away, an action that would be entirely within her character, according to people who knew her. Onlyhalcyon's description that follows your post is in keeping with those suspicions. As I said, a DM in that situation would be hard pressed to understand what was happening.

[Web Monkey]

I am not speculating as to the degree to which she was narced. My suspicion is simply that she did not want a DM buddy restricting her dive and took active steps to get away, an action that would be entirely within her character, according to people who knew her. Onlyhalcyon's description that follows your post is in keeping with those suspicions. As I said, a DM in that situation would be hard pressed to understand what was happening.

Understanding diver motivation really isn't necessary or even useful. The only thing the DM/OWI would need to understand is that Mrs. Woods was not respecting the depth limit.

I'm not implying that a diver @ 65' on a 60' dive should be immediately hauled back to the surface, however a continued descent after a "level off" or "ascend" sign would certainly rate this action.

With a reasonable amount of attention, this could have been done while still well within the NDL and with minimal risk to anybody.

Terry

[stadevene]

In terms of buddy distance, and dive planning ... I'm exactly the same diver that I was last week, last month, last year, last decade, I see no need to change.

I don't expect you to change, I'm sure you don't need to. You've got many thousands of dives more than I do and as the saying goes, forgotten more than I know. Some of us aspire to your level of knowledge, experience and skill. You're one of the divers who I could learn a great deal from I'm sure, I know I've learned from your postings.

I guess I'm putting all the fault finding and finger pointing to the side or have moved on from that. I've always felt the importance of this sub forum is to identify what caused the situation and what we can do to prevent this from happening to ourselves. To quote the rules:

The purpose of this forum is the promotion of safe diving through the examination and discussion of accidents and incidents; to find lessons we can apply to our own diving. Accidents, and incidents that could easily have become accidents, can often be used to illustrate actions that lead to injury or death, and their discussion is essential to building lessons learned from which improved safety can flow.

Throughout the few weeks this thread has gone on I've come to some conclusions based on the available information. I recognize areas where in hindsight the DM messed up, I don't know if that holds true without hindsight though. I don't feel I'm in a position to make that call.

What I am in the positon of is to identify areas where _I_ can improve. I've learned lessons from this thread. I will be better. The purpose of this forum has met my needs, I hope it has met others too and this event is not wasted.

[Thalassamania]

Sorry, I was on a bit of a short fuse yesterday.

You are right that these sorts of threads need to make us all think. When I teach CPR I always warn my students that you need to decide now, not at the scene, what you will and will not do. The same goes for these sorts of incidents, you need to decide now what is reasonable for you and what is not reasonable for you, and then abide by that decision if you are ever faced with the actuality.

Oh, BTW, if your decision in incompatible with the duties of being an Instructor or a DM, don't put yourself in the position of having others depend on you, it isn't fair to them, it isn't fair to yourself.

[LeadTurn_SD]

I am in agreement here, but wanted to add a couple other points.

When a DM is hired to be a buddy, maybe they do only have buddy responsibilities but...

First, they better be the perfect buddy. There's no excuse for someone who has been all the way through instructor training and actually working in the bsiness to have bad buddy skills or a problem reacting to most typical issues under water. The DM should have an idea where she might get narced, and be prepared to recognize and deal with it if her buddy was narced.

Second, as a hired buddy, you're diving as a job, not for pleasure. There's even less excuse to find yourself separated from your buddy because you shouldn't become focussed on anything else or drift off to get a closer look at something you might find interesting. Normally, when buddies get separated, both bear some responsibility, but not so in this case. It's not the hired buddy's dive. This is where it diverges from what I would consider the responsibilities of a highly-trained diver just paired up with someone on a rec dive.

One other thought:
There's been much discussion about Mrs. Wood relative to her state of mind. People wonder if she was narced, suicidal, or just headstrong and ignorant. Does it matter? From the discussion we have and the description of her actions and the DM's responses, we have it narrowed down to those few alternatives and see no means of selecting between them with certainty. If it is possible that she was narced based upon her outward behavior, then the DM should have been able to deal with her as such. I have to agree with Thal's comments on this one. It doesn't appear that any rescue attempt was made based upon what has been described here. An attempt to advise was followed by a more aggressive attempt to advise. There may have been more, but we don't have the DM's story first hand to hear exactly what was done.

bsee65 has summarized (nicely) what I've been thinking ever since more info was posted on this incident. Especially the statements highlighted in red.

There is a lot to learn from this thread for "regular" divers like me, and for dive pros.

As I noted in an earlier post, I found myself in a very similar situation years ago. It is indeed unexpected and confusing, but should not be beyond the capabilities of an average attentive buddy to handle, let alone an instructor.

Best wishes.

[ItsBruce]

... When I teach CPR I always warn my students that you need to decide now, not at the scene, what you will and will not do. The same goes for these sorts of incidents, you need to decide now what is reasonable for you and what is not reasonable for you, and then abide by that decision if you are ever faced with the actuality.

I was going to post a "thanks," but decided that this admonition was so important that a "thanks" did not say enough.

Someone on SB used to have a signature line that included something about pre-planned responses, though I have not spotted it recently. It is critical in all aspects of life.

FWIW: One of my other life activities is racing sailboats. Before major regattas, I write the profanity of the day on a piece of tape and stick it on the bulkhead. That way, when things go wrong, I don't need to spend mental energy thinking of something really rank to yell ... I just read it off and devote my mental energy to whatever is going wrong. It is a pre-planned response.

[bowlofpetunias]

Has it been established that the DM was a qualified instructor? I know there was reference to an instructor but I thought it was one of the other DM's.

[boulderjohn]

Has it been established that the DM was a qualified instructor? I know there was reference to an instructor but I thought it was one of the other DM's.

Yes. It was stated quite some time ago that all three DMs were in fact instructors.

[bowlofpetunias]

I have been following this thread closely but must have missed that post on a page break or something... I was too lazy to try to read all the way back again to find it ....thanks

[onlyhalcyon]

I am FedExing my dive computer to the Invest team tomorrow at their request. I guess it will provide them with a credible time line for the dive. I personaly have so many holes that I would like to see filled by their investigation. I did ask them for some insight into a few of the key blanks mentioned here in this forum, but they only replied with the request for me to mail them my dive computer. Fair enough I guess. It would be nice for someone to make some sence out of all that happened that morning. It is almost impossible for any of us to really know what happened that morning. We can work through the snippets of info and try and arange them in some kind of order based on previous dive / life experience, but we will never know with certantanty what happened which is a shame. Hopefully I will hear what happened that morning once the dive invest team conclude their investigation.

[bowlofpetunias]

onlyhalcyon that is the reality of life I am afraid frustrating as it is. Even witnesses to the same event filter it though personal perceptions, bias and experience.

What we do know is that this thread has led many people to knowledge that could save a life one day. We often don't know how we impact others. I would like to thank you for your contributions in particular and the other posters in general for a very worth while exercise!

Your continued contributions are much appreciated!

[Thalassamania]

I'd still like to know who these investigators are and whom they are working for.

[bowlofpetunias]

I'd still like to know who these investigators are and whom they are working for.

Yeah... I'd REALLY like to know that BEFORE I sent my computer myself. I would rather send a download of it :dontknow: maybe I am just not very trusting

[Thalassamania]

I would not be worried about getting my computer back, but someone is paying these investigators, someone with an axe of some sort to grind.

[bowlofpetunias]

lol I'd prefer not to use my old backup computer. I guess since I get to dive year round not having my computer for a few weeks is more of an issue to me.

I agree... the best interests of whoever is paying their wages sure can taint the unbiased nature of an investigation!

[ItsBruce]

I'm going to second that bit about not sending some stranger your computer. You would not send it to me, would you?

I would guess you are perfectly capable of downloading it and sending the data. Besides, since you didn't go after Mrs. Woods, what is it that your computer would actually show? At most, when you got out of the water relative to the DM.

You are under no obligation to just send your computer to some essentially unidentified stranger who claims to be an investigator. At least find out who they are investigating on behalf of. ... And if they say something about a deposed Nigerian president or something ...

[Tricia]

At least find out who they are investigating on behalf of. ... And if they say something about a deposed Nigerian president or something ...

:rofl3:


Thal,

I am also curious as to who hired these investigators. It could be the family of Mrs. Wood. But it could also easily be the dive op because they want to figure out what happened so that they can try to prevent it happening again AND because in case Mrs. Wood's family does start some sort of proceeding, their defense is prepared. If I were their lawyer, it's what I'd advise them to do.

Trish

[bsee65]

I would not be worried about getting my computer back, but someone is paying these investigators, someone with an axe of some sort to grind.

If these guys aren't working for the "proper authorities" and there's information in my computer that would be harmful to their case, I might be concerned about getting it back in one piece. Always good to know who you are dealing with.

[danclem]

I believe the investigators are working for the company providing insurance to Stuart Cove and PADI. Per their request, I sent a PDF of the dove profile from my Sol. The may very much want Onehalcyon's computer to verify calibration, as well as comparing it to the other computers on the dive.

In my view, DAN is probably the best authority for an objective analysis of what transpired, and they will probably not have access to all information because of possible litigation.

Investigtors will present their reports to their respective legal counsels, who will then build the strongest case possible for their respective clients.
v

[Thalassamania]

Oh well, so much for holding out any hope of learning anything from that source.

[likestodive]

I've been lurking on the board for quite a while following this thread.

First it disturbs me that the divemaster was HIRED as a personal buddy and the person was allowed to 'get away'. I have trouble understanding that UNLESS either a) the DM was incompetent (seems doubtful) or b) the lady did it on purpose.

Years ago, back when going deep interested me for some stupid reason, a guy I had done more than 300 dives with (we both probably had 1000+ at the time) used to go with a particular dive master in Cozumel that had been a support diver for actual depth record attempts, etc. We all liked to go seriously deep and understood the serious risks that go along with that. I guess you could say we were 'depth junkies'. I am recovered now and just don't do it anymore. I'm not looking for preaching about that (I get it), but just mention that to frame the story. Another very experienced diver was with us - total of 3 divers and a dive master on the boat. We went to Maricabo Wall in CZM (ie. very deep over the edge). We planned a bounce dive down to around 160 - 170 and then a long slow climb back up. My buddy and I promptly went down to about 160 as planned (and no you won't automatically die at that depth), but the other guy descended like a rock right past us. Exceptional visibility of 150 ft+ that day with the usual current that is there (ie. not ripping but it is definitely going). We couldn't even see his bubbles anymore. He was WAY BELOW 300 ft. Earlier I had signaled the divemaster and essentially asked if he was going to go get him. He replied back no the guy was crazy. Earlier on the boat the same guy had been talking somewhat suicidal but I didn't put it together until we were into the dive. The diver ended up shooting up like a rocket. Didn't do any sort of safety stop and arrived back on the boat out of air. We did our 50 minutes (a few minutes at depth and then essentially one long safety stop). That used to seem cool but again, I'm not into that anymore. When we got on the boat, the divemaster, my buddy and I all started into the guy. He said he just wanted to feel narced and when he got down to 200+ it felt so good he just wanted more. I honestly think he was trying to commit suicide and then backed out at the last moment. His computer had 'violated' at 350 ft (max depth it registered). How he didn't kill himself with such a rapid descent from that depth I still don't understand. LUCKY. I talked with the divemaster (who I know very well and I consider to be the consumate pro - he certified my kids several years later) about it and he said the guy just went down too fast for him to do anything about it until it was too late and he thought the guy was going to die (and was committing suicide) and he didn't want to be killed with him. I couldn't judge him harshly for that. He was right. Sorry for the long story, but it seems particularly relevent here. While the DM in the Bahamas was specifically hired and should have been so close that it would have been dificult for the lady to 'get way', if she was serious about committing suicide that changes things completely (may have 'bolted' when the divemaster turned away for a second, etc).

One last thing. I can guarantee you, 170ft is not a 'can't even think about it' depth to a divemaster/instructor in any location with a wall. However, that is at the beginning of the dive with everyone with a plan and experienced diving deep (not 'without a clue' and potentially looking to kill themselves).

I know I am only speculating about the divers motives, but it makes sense to me. I do feel sorry for all involved and hope the survivors can somehow recover.

[bsee65]

I've been lurking on the board for quite a while following this thread.

Welcome and thanks for posting. I found much of what you said was worth reading , though largely as a contrast to this incident.

As far as we know, there's no indication of any suicidal talk or other actions pre-dive. That doesn't mean there was none, only that I don't recall a report about it here. I'm sure the investigators will have followed up on this line if there was any history to uncover.

Also, the victim was apparently in no great hurry to create separation. Unlike in your story, it would seem this DM had some amount of time to recognize danger in this situation and act in a decisive manner. Where your DM had virtually no opportunity to act, this DM acted, but the actions were ineffective. This victim apparently moved deliberately, but without great haste.

What does it all mean? I don't know, but it's a slightly different angle from which to view this scene.

[boulderjohn]

Welcome and thanks for posting. I found much of what you said was worth reading , though largely as a contrast to this incident.
...

Also, the victim was apparently in no great hurry to create separation. Unlike in your story, it would seem this DM had some amount of time to recognize danger in this situation and act in a decisive manner. Where your DM had virtually no opportunity to act, this DM acted, but the actions were ineffective. This victim apparently moved deliberately, but without great haste.
...


I don't know. It looks to me like Mrs. Woods was trying to create separation.



Iwatched as the second diver whom I now know to be the DM try to get the attention of the first diver only to be pushed away. I then dropped to around 90ft to see what was going on. I could see the first diver (Mrs Wood) continue to swim down to what must have been around 110ft and seemed to have no intention of stopping, I looked on wondering what was happening and wondering what I was missing had they seen hammerhead sharks? I dropped lower to see if I could see what they had seen we were told pre dive that hammerhead sharks had been seen in the area so I didn't want to miss out if a diver had seen them. As I said it all seemed a little strange since the diver going so deep was in rental equipment so I dropped down to almost 100ft leaving my wife at around 60ft. I looked up and my wife was signaling me to come up and catch up with the group who were now quite a way ahead of us. I told her to stay where she was as there was something going on which didn't seem right to me. I could see the DM now hitting her tank with some thing and could see the second diver hitting their tank and could hear the constant signaling noise the 2 divers were at around 130 when I lost sight of them.

[still new]

A dive master retained by the diver/husband attempted to stop her descent at approximately 100', and was seen pushing the DM away and continuing her descent.What ever happened to grabbing on and making diver or elf positive and ascending? may not have needed to come up very far in order to regain being alert.

[boulderjohn]

A dive master retained by the diver/husband attempted to stop her descent at approximately 100', and was seen pushing the DM away and continuing her descent.What ever happened to grabbing on and making diver or elf positive and ascending? may not have needed to come up very far in order to regain being alert.

This was thoroughly discussed in the previous 949 posts. Scroll back through the last hundred or so and you will get a good idea of where the discussion is now.

[rigdiver]

A dive master retained by the diver/husband attempted to stop her descent at approximately 100', and was seen pushing the DM away and continuing her descent.What ever happened to grabbing on and making diver or elf positive and ascending? may not have needed to come up very far in order to regain being alert.

Who can say the deceased was not alert?

[ScooterSouthFlorida]

Perhaps I wasn't clear on what I "meant" to say. I agree completly with what I put in red. A DM should have the training to recognize and react to problems.

What I was trying to get at was that if the DM recognized that there was a problem when it would have put her life at risk, I don't blame her for not risking her life in an attemt to save Ms. Woods.

AM,

I appreciate your clarification and hope you understand the point of my position; whatever the license/certification, if you get it, you are held to a higher standard. I always tell that to friends who want to get their captain's license; once you have it you will ALWAYS be held to a higher standard, no matter what. If you don't like it, don't do it.

However, I do blame the DM. Why? Because she should have been next to this apparently suicidal, old, stroked out, narc'd, batty, inexperienced, combative, insert whatever Oliver Stone theory everyone else has come up with diver, and taken steps to prevent this from happening WAY BEFORE it got to the point it did.

You actually hit the nail on the head, this DM sure did recognize a problem that would have put her life at risk, and the reason why it would have put her life at risk is because SHE WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION IN THE FIRST PLACE!! I sure hope (and believe) that the majority of DM's are trained well enough and/or have enough pride in their profession to recognize problems before they get out of hand. This DM didn't, and I hope she thinks long and hard before holding herself out again as a 'professional.'

[bsee65]

I don't know. It looks to me like Mrs. Woods was trying to create separation.

Sorry, John, but there's a big difference between trying to create separation and being significantly negative so that you drop to 300+ feet and out of site with great rapidity. What I said that it didn't appear she was in any great hurry to create separation. If this happened over the course of a half minute or less, then the DM would have had to react quickly to recognize the situation and act. If it happened over 2-3 minutes of contact or more, there was a lot of opportunity for the light to go on and to initiate a rescue.

One clue is that the victim was "swimming" away. With suicidal intent, wouldn't you think the diver would enter the water a few pounds negative and use that to help with the descent? Down 100', the wetsuit should have lost some lift creating more negativity, but still she was swimming deeper. I don't know how many seconds or minutes this whole event took to go from 80' to 140'+, but it didn't sound like it was all that fast. In fact, the faster the victim was trying to escape into the deep, the more of a red flag it should have been for the DM/buddy that some action needed to be taken. It sounded more like a leisurely and deliberate descent that would elicit an attempt to communicate rather than a full-out rescue effort.

[boulderjohn]

I have never suggested suicidal intent. In fact, my comments have been quite the opposite. I do believe, however, that the diver was trying to gain separation from the DM, which is what the eye witness describes. As I have said several times, I think there is good evidence that she was unhappy about being forced to dive with a DM and may have been trying to elude those limitations. After that, who knows?

Sorry, John, but there's a big difference between trying to create separation and being significantly negative so that you drop to 300+ feet and out of site with great rapidity. What I said that it didn't appear she was in any great hurry to create separation. If this happened over the course of a half minute or less, then the DM would have had to react quickly to recognize the situation and act. If it happened over 2-3 minutes of contact or more, there was a lot of opportunity for the light to go on and to initiate a rescue.

One clue is that the victim was "swimming" away. With suicidal intent, wouldn't you think the diver would enter the water a few pounds negative and use that to help with the descent? Down 100', the wetsuit should have lost some lift creating more negativity, but still she was swimming deeper. I don't know how many seconds or minutes this whole event took to go from 80' to 140'+, but it didn't sound like it was all that fast. In fact, the faster the victim was trying to escape into the deep, the more of a red flag it should have been for the DM/buddy that some action needed to be taken. It sounded more like a leisurely and deliberate descent that would elicit an attempt to communicate rather than a full-out rescue effort.

[bsee65]

I have never suggested suicidal intent. In fact, my comments have been quite the opposite. I do believe, however, that the diver was trying to gain separation from the DM, which is what the eye witness describes. As I have said several times, I think there is good evidence that she was unhappy about being forced to dive with a DM and may have been trying to elude those limitations. After that, who knows?

I never suggested that she wasn't trying to gain separation, but your initial quote of my comment made it seem that was what you were attributing to me. All I said was that the account did not indicate that she was trying to gain separation with great rapidity. It sounded more like she was just going about her business and ignoring the DM. My point was that she wasn't attempting to flee at a rate that would preclude contact and action.

[diverrex]

Well I managed to read about 600 posts before I got bored. And now I've read maybe the last 20 or so. So I admit I skipped over 300+ posts. But it seems like we've been successfull at eliminating the condolences (a good thing) but out of 900+ plus posts there's maybe only 30 that have real information, facts, updates, etc. and maybe 60 posts with some worthwhile speculation, analysis, recounting of similar experiences, etc. Then we have 400+ plus posts of someone repeating the same speculation that has been discussed ad nauseum, and another 400+ posts of people trying to prove they know more about diving than others. Man it's going to be really hard to read this section and ever really learn what happened.

[LarryW99]

My first thought, suicide or some reason in her mind to get away from DM. Who can say, we'lll never know. My thoughts and prayers to family, divers and recurers involved, and others.

[Rick Murchison]

:hijack:Well I managed to read about 600 posts before I got bored. And now I've read maybe the last 20 or so. So I admit I skipped over 300+ posts. But it seems like we've been successfull at eliminating the condolences (a good thing) but out of 900+ plus posts there's maybe only 30 that have real information, facts, updates, etc. and maybe 60 posts with some worthwhile speculation, analysis, recounting of similar experiences, etc. Then we have 400+ plus posts of someone repeating the same speculation that has been discussed ad nauseum, and another 400+ posts of people trying to prove they know more about diving than others. Man it's going to be really hard to read this section and ever really learn what happened.
Yeah, well, I decided to leave this thread alone to act as a repository for rhetoric, ramblings, red herrings & regurgitations... sort of an attractive trash can to help keep the rest of the forum picked up a bit.
If anything definitive about the mishap surfaces it'll be a small miracle.
:D
Rick
end :hijack:

[scubadada]

Sure would be nice to eventually hear about the findings from the investigation. If not released, perhaps one of the divers involved who contributed to the investigation would have access and share with the rest of us. I don't expect much, but it would be a reasonable end to the story, much better than where it stands now.

Good diving, Craig

[ItsBruce]

I would have hoped for more information on this incident, but if nothing else, this thread has served as an interesting forum for discussion of dive buddy responsibilities, DM responsibilities and DM responsibilities when the DM is hired specifically to buddy with one person.

[bsee65]

I would have hoped for more information on this incident, but if nothing else, this thread has served as an interesting forum for discussion of dive buddy responsibilities, DM responsibilities and DM responsibilities when the DM is hired specifically to buddy with one person.

Interesting, maybe, but what lessons have we learned? The same lesson that comes from every accident thread, sure. You are ultimately responsible for your own safety. If you want to come back from your dive, you have to make it happen. Dive conservatively. Whether we believe the DM should have made a rescue or not, whether we believe the victim was suicidal, narced, obstinate, or otherwise, that's stuff we discuss after the fact and it doesn't get anyone safely back to shore. The best dive plan starts with the expectation that you can't count on anyone else for help, and that you need to be there for your buddy anyway.

[alohagal]

:hijack:
Yeah, well, I decided to leave this thread alone to act as a repository for rhetoric, ramblings, red herrings & regurgitations... sort of an attractive trash can to help keep the rest of the forum picked up a bit.
If anything definitive about the mishap surfaces it'll be a small miracle.
:D
Rick
end :hijack:

And...you managed a nice alliteration of all those ramblings here, too!

[scubadada]

Too bad this extremely long thread did not come to a more graceful conclusion. I keep hoping for information from the investigative team and/or one of the participants with knowledge of the investigative report.

Good diving, Craig

[Splash-X]

The conclusion of the thread? Be a responsible diver who looks out for themself and your buddy, don't expect too much from hired help and don't trust anyone with your life.

[Thalassamania]

Too bad this extremely long thread did not come to a more graceful conclusion. I keep hoping for information from the investigative team and/or one of the participants with knowledge of the investigative report.

Good diving, Craig
The investigative team works for the operator/agency ... you don't really expect them to either find the truth or even share their spin on the incident ... do you?

[bowlofpetunias]

I wouldn't count on truth but perhaps spin.....

I have still learned from this incident and participating in this thread has been worthwhile thanks to a number of the contributors thanks

[scubadada]

The investigative team works for the operator/agency ... you don't really expect them to either find the truth or even share their spin on the incident ... do you?

I was hoping one of the divers present that day who participated in the investigation would eventually have some knowledge of the report and share it on SB. My expectations were not high, I'm not surprised.

Good diving, Craig

[Thalassamania]

They won't see it either, it is all work product for some law firm, likely you could not even subpoena it. It is not really an "investigation" in the classic sense at all.

[diverrex]

I was also hoping that each of the divers that initially reported information would eventually report back with a more complete accounting of at least their own recollections of what happened, perhaps with a little additional information that they may have also learned during the investigative process. I suppose while all that may be useful to the rest of us divers it does not serve the purposes of the entities directly involved. Obviously the most interesting account would be directly from the DM involved, but because of liability claims I'm sure we will never hear that.

[Splash-X]

The information that the divers first posted is probably the most accurate account that we would get from them. The closer the to incident the fresher the memory. Some details may be accurate and some may be blown out of proportion.

Without someone getting an incident report from the authorities we will never get the full story. Given that their goverment doesn't operate the same as ours it may not be possible to get a copy of the offical report like you can here in the United States where any public record is avaliable to all.

[dpaustex]

All unfortunate stories.

Issue one: have good buoyancy skills if you're doing a wall.

Issue two: if a diver is narced, there's that little gizmo on the BC called an inflator. If someone is narced out of their mind, take them up WITH you.

I think people forget this is an assumed risk sport. It is unfortunate that instructors exist that will "pass" you in a class when you're really not ready. There is too much pressure to pass people that aren't ready.

And, sadly, people can die from not being ready. Sometimes you just need to work up to a dive site. No way would I take beginners on a wall dive.

Sad, sad, sad.

[MEG DIVER]

I have read many post from the time I last spoke here I can findly enter the water and not have this as my first vision, just being there doesn't make me or any of us that were there know what happen. As far as getting a copy of the report that will never happen as long as the case stays open ,neither will the investigators tell what any one said, I have ask them only to be told [we cant say what anyone told us] , [but we will be happy to try an answer your Questions] I am sure that this day will be with each an every one of us on that dive that day , and hope that we all will take the steps as we dive to make sure it doesn't happen again.

[bowlofpetunias]

Thanks for checking back in and good luck with your diving Meg I am sorry it has impacted on you so much! I have said all along that Mrs Wood and her family were not the only victims of that incident and your statements give evidence to that.

I hope in this thread somewhere you have gained some support and help in dealing with a terrible event that occurred as a result of something that was totally and completely out of your control!

[Bronson]

without information ot os easy to speculate. I am sure the authorities will interview friends and family as to how she was doing mentally/emotionally. it is highly unusual for someone in panic mode to push away help.

i dived with Stuart Cove and found them to be professional...just my experience.

regards

[ItsBruce]

Has anyone heard anything more?