Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[danclem]

The following incident took place today (June 3) at Tunnel Wall near Nassau on Stuart Cove's boat White Bunjie.

At approximately 10:45 am, a female diver was observed descending the wall, which drops from a 35' reef depth to an estimated 6,000'. A dive master retained by the diver/husband attempted to stop her descent at approximately 100', and was seen pushing the DM away and continuing her descent.

An Instructor was alerted and descended to a depth of approximately 170', where he could see a bubble line starting below him. When everyone returned to the boat there were additional underwater searches conducted by Stuart Cove DM/Instructors, and surface searches by unaffiliated DM/Rescue Divers on the boat.

After the requisite debriefing and completeing of witness statements some three hours later, there was still no rescue or recovery of the missing diver. I would estimate the female involved was in her late fourties or early fifties, was not overweight, and appeared in good physical shape. I have no history on her diving background.

Please keep the missing diver, her husband, family and friends in the San Francisco Bay area, the DM and Instructor involved in the initial search, and those involved in subsequent rescue activities in your thoughts.

Out of respect for those involved, names are not being provided. I am sure this information will be released publicly by local officials.

Dan

[mikemath]

Our thoughts are with the victim's family and friends. Please provide additional information as it becomes available in case there is anything we can learn from it to reduce the likelihood of similar occurrences.

[alohagal]

The following incident took place today (June 3) at Tunnel Wall near Nassau on Stuart Cove's boat White Bunjie.

At approximately 10:45 am, a female diver was observed descending the wall, which drops from a 35' reef depth to an estimated 6,000'. A dive master retained by the diver/husband attempted to stop her descent at approximately 100', and was seen pushing the DM away and continuing her descent.

An Instructor was alerted and descended to a depth of approximately 170', where he could see a bubble line starting below him. When everyone returned to the boat there were additional underwater searches conducted by Stuart Cove DM/Instructors, and surface searches by unaffiliated DM/Rescue Divers on the boat.

After the requisite debriefing and completeing of witness statements some three hours later, there was still no rescue or recovery of the missing diver. I would estimate the female involved was in her late fourties or early fifties, was not overweight, and appeared in good physical shape. I have no history on her diving background.

Please keep the missing diver, her husband, family and friends in the San Francisco Bay area, the DM and Instructor involved in the initial search, and those involved in subsequent rescue activities in your thoughts.

Out of respect for those involved, names are not being provided. I am sure this information will be released publicly by local officials.

Dan
I definitely want to know more about that statement above. Can you shed any light on who said it...and what they meant by it?

[DocIndyDiver]

New divers?

[mikerault]

Very disturbing. Awaiting more facts.

[mikeyjoe]

New divers?

A pretty good guess, which is what we are all doing until more facts come out.

100' on a nice wall in clear water not uncommon - it's where I like to be.....

I and many others I am sure will be keeping an eye on this thread as we learn more.

Thoughts and prayers to the Husband, family and friends.

[DandyDon]

Narcosis...?
An Instructor was alerted and descended to a depth of approximately 170', where he could see a bubble line starting below him.
Doesn't sound good for a recovery either.

[Cave Diver]

Narcosis...?

Doesn't sound good for a recovery either.

Dunno. I recently learned in another thread that a quick bounce dive to 200' to recover a diver is no problem for an instructor that's been in tropical location for more than 6 months...

[danclem]

Today, June 4, involved providing more formal statements. I also asked if there was any up-date on the missing diver, and as of noon today she is still reported missing. I understand from a fellow who gave me a lift back to my hotel that this morning's Bahamian radio news carried a brief report about the incident.

Alohagal- two or three divers apparently witnessed the DM attempting to get the female diver pointed in the correct direction (I was not among them). One was diving with his wife, who was having sinus problems and trouble clearing. He alerted others so he could keep an eye on his wife.

Dan

[stevejaz]

What? Stuart Cove's putting people in the water without the proper bouyancy control and inattentive dive masters...no way! Oh wait, I have video proof of that:popcorn: although it is of a diver either unable to sink, or the DM thought it best to make them positively bouyant and just tow them around as I know for certain that the group or at least 2 people in that group on my video were having issues in their pool training.

Don't get me wrong, as can been seen in my other thread, I've had both good and bad experiences with them in the same trip. So it depends on which instructor/DM you get, as I'm sure is common with a lot of ops.

Soooo, I won't even speculate what happened in this case, I can tell you with absolute certainty that they (Stuart Cove's) will allow new/uncertified divers near that wall. Been there....done that! And in my other thread, the one where my son was low on air and I surfaced with him because the DM was to far ahead....yeah, that was the wall location! But in all fairness, he was not led or allowed to decend that wall, just swim along the edge of it. However, his friend that was with us and also not certified, did crest the edge of that wall before I and the DM motioned to him to return to the top of the wall. That I do not have video proof of because in my log book it say's "always verify equipment before diving" as I had put my batteries in my camera wrong. :shocked2: :lotsalove:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not speculating what happened in this case or that anybody did anything wrong, just saying that I know and have experienced first hand that this operation has some issues/protocal/staff to address.

My best to all those involved and truely hope that the cause of this incident weren't due to circumstances similar to those I experienced.

Steve

[Jeff Toorish]

Let's want and see what actual information comes out before we jump to conclusions.

Jeff

[DandyDon]

Today, June 4, involved providing more formal statements. I also asked if there was any up-date on the missing diver, and as of noon today she is still reported missing. I understand from a fellow who gave me a lift back to my hotel that this morning's Bahamian radio news carried a brief report about the incident.

Alohagal- two or three divers apparently witnessed the DM attempting to get the female diver pointed in the correct direction (I was not among them). One was diving with his wife, who was having sinus problems and trouble clearing. He alerted others so he could keep an eye on his wife.

Dan
Clarification please: Are you saying that the husband of the missing lady is "who was having sinus problems and trouble clearing" and got the DM to chase the wife who was descending without him?

[Thalassamania]

Dunno. I recently learned in another thread that a quick bounce dive to 200' to recover a diver is no problem for an instructor that's been in tropical location for more than 6 months...What say we try to quote things in context? It's not that hard, you can use a link: link (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/283416-diver-death-cayman-82.html#post4455210) or just cut and paste a multi-quote of the posts:
Have you done this type of dive often? Excluding the rescue part?
Made a bounce to 190, on air, with a buddy, for a very limited task, with an 80 on my back?

Not that often, maybe 50 to 100 times in my life. Usually to recover or emplace an instrument or do a quick planning reconnoiter. In warm, clear water it's not a big deal. In cold, murky water it takes a bit more in the way of gear, planning and support.
You probably didn't want to come across as arrogant, but that's a dangerous statement. I'm sure what you meant was "For a diver of my experience and skill level, in warm, clear water it's not a big deal." For a sizable portion of the divers who might be reading your post, it's probably a fairly risky undertaking that is beyond experience, and should be beyond comfort level. It would be BS if we had to put a disclaimer on every post, but that seems like the kind of statement that could lead some intermediate diver to give it a try with potentially unhappy results.
Sorry, you are correct.

It was not a big deal for me.

It was not a big deal for my buddy, who always had, beyond 100 hours of training: at least 12 dives above 30, 12 dives 30 to 60, 12 dives 60 to 100, 12 dives 100 to 130, 12 dives 130 to 150; and was usually was working toward his or her 190 foot card.

It should not be a big deal for a tropical instructor who's been there even just a few months.

[diver 85]

Sorry to hear-----she musta narc'ed on them.....

[ONESPEED]

This sounds like a tragic accident that could have been caused by any number of issues, Speculating this early in an investigation doesn't do anyone any good. Why don't we sit back, wait for the facts to come out and form our opinions then? Jumping to uninformed conclusions certainly will not solve anything or help prevent a similar incident in the future.

[ScubaSteve]

Let's want and see what actual information comes out before we jump to conclusions.

Jeff


There is no jumping. I stood up and there was the conclusion. No jumping required. I agree though that there is really only enough information to poke holes in theories....that is all. Thoughts are with the diver, family and friends howe ver I do anxiously await more "facts".

[dumpsterDiver]

I am not concluding anything, but how does a divemaster get in a physical confrontation with customer and then allow her to fall down a wall? It is easy to imagine someone getting away from a DM and sinking too fast too far, but if the DM was wrasling with her???

[Thalassamania]

It should not be a big deal ... grab the tank valve and ascend, fining, BC lift, or even better: an Air Siphon (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4455613-post828.html).

[diver 85]

It should not be a big deal ... grab the tank valve and ascend, fining, BC lift, or even better: an Air Siphon (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4455613-post828.html).


This was my very 1st thought also....

[gcbryan]

It should not be a big deal ... grab the tank valve and ascend, fining, BC lift, or even better: an Air Siphon (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4455613-post828.html).

Don't you think that if the DM could have gotten control of her he would have gotten control of her?

[stevejaz]

I am not concluding anything, but how does a divemaster get in a physical confrontation with customer and then allow her to fall down a wall? It is easy to imagine someone getting away from a DM and sinking too fast too far, but if the DM was wrasling with her???


First let me state 2 things. 1. I am new to diving. 2. I know nothing of this particular case and am speaking in generalities.

In response to the above statement.

I don't think so if they are properly weighted. Problem is, I have yet to see a DM with an uncertified diver REALLY check bouyancy. They usually make sure they can sink and it's all good.

During cert, they (PADI) teaches you to weight so that you float at eye level with a normal breath and no air in your BC. This is what I do and sinking is a slow process for me. If these people are weighted properly sinking into the abyss quickly seems like an impossibility to me, a couple fin kicks even if they freak and don't air up the BC is more than enough to prevent their decentent. That said, I have never been to 100', only 80' is it that much different the deeper you go?

[danclem]

Just a couple of points. First, the DM hired by the couple was female, not male. Second, this DM was in very close proximity to the missing diver and was communicating/in contact with her close to rec diving limits.

My training is also to work behind the diver and attempt to gain control by holding onto the tank valve from the rear and subsequently the lower tank/BCD. Extremely difficult to know what happened and what was going on with a struggling or disoriented diver.

The local Bahamian news tonight listed the name of the missing diver, so I will pass it along here: Radha Wood, of Orinda, California. My deepest condolences to Larry, their family, friends, colleagues, and those who assisted with rescue efforts.

Been a long couple of days.

Dan

[Splitlip]

Dunno. I recently learned in another thread that a quick bounce dive to 200' to recover a diver is no problem for an instructor that's been in tropical location for more than 6 months...

"drops from a 35' reef depth to an estimated 6,000'" I'm guessingis what was meant by making recovery difficult.

[mikeyjoe]

First let me state 2 things. 1. I am new to diving. 2. I know nothing of this particular case and am speaking in generalities.

In response to the above statement.

I don't think so if they are properly weighted. Problem is, I have yet to see a DM with an uncertified diver REALLY check bouyancy. They usually make sure they can sink and it's all good.

During cert, they (PADI) teaches you to weight so that you float at eye level with a normal breath and no air in your BC. This is what I do and sinking is a slow process for me. If these people are weighted properly sinking into the abyss quickly seems like an impossibility to me, a couple fin kicks even if they freak and don't air up the BC is more than enough to prevent their decentent. That said, I have never been to 100', only 80' is it that much different the deeper you go?

Yes, it is a bit different. Your wetsuit compresses as you go deeper, which reduces it's buoyancy, so you sink a little faster. If you don't put puffs of air to your bc as you descend, you can get some good speed going, especially if you are overweighted. Add to it the possible effects of narcosis below 100', perhaps a lack of experience. I have heard of narced divers try to control an descent by trying to add air to their bc, but due to narcosis, actually hit the dump valve, thereby increasing the speed of descent, so they try to add again, but they actually dump.... vicious cycle. Narcosis can have a real effect on the mind.

This is all hypothetical - we don't know what happened to her and it looks like we probably never will - it is just a sad story.

[Splitlip]

I don't know the profiles, but a lot of people used to diving clear water with a hard bottom decend without checking a depth gauge, expecting to level when the bottom comes in sight.

[carriemak]

Sorry to hear of this incident. Thoughts and prayers for the family.

[DandyDon]

I was wondering...?
Clarification please: Are you saying that the husband of the missing lady is "who was having sinus problems and trouble clearing" and got the DM to chase the wife who was descending without him?
How many of these threads involve divers not descending & ascending with their buddies? I can drop twice as fast as my regular bud and it's tempting to want to meet him below, but I wait. He can be bad about ascending without me at times, but we're working on that. I have a promise to his mom and I chase.

But then we hear about BF/GF buddy splits, and I'm wonder if this was a wife who left her hubby with sinus problems? I have come out of the water, aborting a dive, when my bud couldn't clear screaming "How can you ever forget your allergy meds?! You always have problems!" but I stay with him.

[vladimir]

Let's want and see what actual information comes out before we jump to conclusions.

JeffWhat actual information are we likely to get besides the posted account?

[vladimir]

Sorry to hear of this incident. Thoughts and prayers for the family.Here is a link to the Passings forum:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/passings/

which is the appropriate place for a condolence thread. This forum is intended for analysis of the accident.

[Web Monkey]

At approximately 10:45 am, a female diver was observed descending the wall, which drops from a 35' reef depth to an estimated 6,000'. A dive master retained by the diver/husband attempted to stop her descent at approximately 100', and was seen pushing the DM away and continuing her descent.

That's sad. I'm assuming new/inexperienced since they hired a DM.

I have to say that if I have to chase a diver down on their way past 100' into the Great Blue Beyond, once I get to "pushing away" distance, someone is coming back to the boat with me. And I don't think I know anybody who wouldn't do the same.

Something important is missing here.

Terry

[vladimir]

Speculating this early in an investigation doesn't do anyone any good.I disagree. If we discuss the possibility that she was overweighted, say, it will have precisely the same educational value whether she was or not. If we discuss the rescue scenarios, maybe somebody will learn what an air siphon is.

Why don't we sit back, wait for the facts to come out and form our opinions then? What facts are likely to come out? Perhaps they'll recover the body and we'll have a computer. What will that tell us that is likely to shed more light on the incident? If we get new facts, or if we get corrections to the "facts" we have, we will collectively adjust our speculation, which can also have instructive value.

Jumping to uninformed conclusions certainly will not solve anythingWe are unlikely to solve anything here in any accidents thread.

or help prevent a similar incident in the future.
I disagree.

[stevejaz]

That's sad. I'm assuming new/inexperienced since they hired a DM.

I have to say that if I have to chase a diver down on their way past 100' into the Great Blue Beyond, once I get to "pushing away" distance, someone is coming back to the boat with me. And I don't think I know anybody who wouldn't do the same.

Something important is missing here.

Terry

That's a good point, however, I know at least one of the DM's there that is a female was quite petit and I doubt even 5' tall, but a real firecracker. The other was actually my instructor and she was great, definitely very particular about following set guidelines. Neither of which were the DM in the story I relayed earlier and for their sake I hope not the one involved in this story as I'd feel really bad for them, as I do for the victim of course.

[Splitlip]

I disagree. If we discuss the possibility that she was overweighted, say, it will have precisely the same educational value whether she was or not. If we discuss the rescue scenarios, maybe somebody will learn what an air siphon is.

What facts are likely to come out? Perhaps they'll recover the body and we'll have a computer. What will that tell us that is likely to shed more light on the incident? If we get new facts, or if we get corrections to the "facts" we have, we will collectively adjust our speculation, which can also have instructive value.

We are unlikely to solve anything here in any accidents thread.


I disagree.

I am all for this type of discussion. Does not matter what ultimately is the cause. It makes for good informed intercourse and discussion. May save a life.

If I go in, post your grievences on the other forum and have at it here. May save a life.

[LeadTurn_SD]

....At approximately 10:45 am, a female diver was observed descending the wall, which drops from a 35' reef depth to an estimated 6,000'. A dive master retained by the diver/husband attempted to stop her descent at approximately 100', and was seen pushing the DM away and continuing her descent....

So we now have two threads running regarding fatalities involving divers under supervision of DM's who, one way or another, were unable to prevent a fatality.

The other thread: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/283416-diver-death-cayman.html

This case appears even worse because it appears that the DM had direct supervison over the victim and let her get away.

The other case involved the DM was leading a group and simply did not keep track of the new diver/victim.

Just based on that info, there are still things to be learned from these incidents (for DM's, dive ops, and new vacation divers).

So even though we will likely never get the complete story in either case, I do think both incidents are worth poking and prodding a bit, even with the minimal info we have.

Best wishes.

[DandyDon]

Right on! :thumb: If I go down, speculate it all you want here in hopes it helps someone else. I'm record saying that in the "If I die" thread and in my daughter's desk.
That's a good point, however, I know at least one of the DM's there that is a female was quite petit and I doubt even 5' tall, but a real firecracker. The other was actually my instructor and she was great, definitely very particular about following set guidelines. Neither of which were the DM in the story I relayed earlier and for their sake I hope not the one involved in this story as I'd feel really bad for them, as I do for the victim of course.
Those DMs are welcome to post here should they choose to do so. I doubt it'll happen.

I remember a petite gal in my Rescue class. Good course for any diver serious about learning. She was taught like us all: get behind, take control, use your tools. A girl half my size gets control of my tank valve, not much I can do about it but hope she has good intentions.

I don't know enough to criticize the DMs, don't mean to, but - I do wonder? Also wish we did have more real info on the divers, etc.

[Cave Diver]

What say we try to quote things in context?


I wasn't trying to quote, I said "I learned..."


It's not that hard, you can use a link: link (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/283416-diver-death-cayman-82.html#post4455210) or just cut and paste a multi-quote of the posts:

Thanks, now I've learned two things. :)

It should not be a big deal for a tropical instructor who's been there even just a few months.

Dunno. I recently learned in another thread that a quick bounce dive to 200' to recover a diver [-]is no problem [/-] should not be a big deal for an instructor that's been in tropical location for more than [-]6[/-] a few months...

Ok, now it's closer.

[Splash-X]

An Instructor was alerted and descended to a depth of approximately 170', where he could see a bubble line starting below him.

Another thing to think about is at what point, as a DM or Instructor, do you consider your saftey above that of the certified diver you're leading? Rescue turns to Recovery very quickly and without the proper gear on site a rescue may not have been possible.

How long in to the dive did the accident take place? This is an important aspect to determine how much gas the diver in question may have had. That leads to the question, how long did it take the instructor to reach 170ft. That leads to, what is the likelyhood that the rescue had turned in to a recovery.

[Cave Diver]

Another thing to think about is at what point, as a DM or Instructor, do you consider your saftey above that of the certified diver you're leading? Rescue turns to Recovery very quickly and without the proper gear on site a rescue may not have been possible.

How long in to the dive did the accident take place? This is an important aspect to determine how much gas the diver in question may have had. That leads to the question, how long did it take the instructor to reach 170ft. That leads to, what is the likelyhood that the rescue had turned in to a recovery.

That's a good point that was brought up recently in the other accident thread. I believe it was Thal that mentioned the value in a diver having a personal limit, decided before hand that they felt comfortable with when helping another diver. It's not a decision you want to make under stress.

[dumpsterDiver]

That's sad. I'm assuming new/inexperienced since they hired a DM.

I have to say that if I have to chase a diver down on their way past 100' into the Great Blue Beyond, once I get to "pushing away" distance, someone is coming back to the boat with me. And I don't think I know anybody who wouldn't do the same.

Something important is missing here.

Terry

I agree completely. The story doesn't add up without additional details. A divemaster should be able to release the diver, get behind them, grab the valve, inflate their own Bc, kick like hell and haul a disoriented diver from 100 (or 200) up to 50 feet or so and then make another attempt to gently convince the diver to ascend.

I used to see some dive guides use a backpack and no BC and it always scared me because I felt that they lacked the reserve bouyancy to physically haul someone up from the depths in an emergency.

[Splash-X]

That's a good point that was brought up recently in the other accident thread. I believe it was Thal that mentioned the value in a diver having a personal limit, decided before hand that they felt comfortable with when helping another diver. It's not a decision you want to make under stress.

I think at the next shop meeting I'm going to bring this question to the table. Whil leading a dive, to what extent should we go to rescue a diver? I'm not talking just let someone go off and do something crazy, but in this case, if I was the instructor at 170ft, what would the dive operator expect of me, what would I expect of myself and what do our customers expect from us?

I've been on boats before where they clearly tell us, if we start to swim down the wall, the DM will only be able to follow us so far/long before they have to give up for their own saftey.

[promocop]

what the hell happenned? Scary stuff. NN?

[Cave Diver]

I agree completely. The story doesn't add up without additional details.

There are several questions left unanswered from the brief blurb, if the following statement is accurate, I can't even begin to imagine the thoughts and feelings of the husband if he witnessed this happening. My thoughts are with him especially.


At approximately 10:45 am, a female diver was observed descending the wall, which drops from a 35' reef depth to an estimated 6,000'. A dive master retained by the diver/husband attempted to stop her descent at approximately 100', and was seen pushing the DM away and continuing her descent.

[Cave Diver]

I think at the next shop meeting I'm going to bring this question to the table. Whil leading a dive, to what extent should we go to rescue a diver? I'm not talking just let someone go off and do something crazy, but in this case, if I was the instructor at 170ft, what would the dive operator expect of me, what would I expect of myself and what do our customers expect from us?

I've been on boats before where they clearly tell us, if we start to swim down the wall, the DM will only be able to follow us so far/long before they have to give up for their own saftey.

I think it was CDNScubaMoose that posted about doing something similar with some DM candidates.

[DandyDon]

I'm not much of a diver, and I have screwed up big time at times, but still, some thots - altho I'm here more to learn...
Another thing to think about is at what point, as a DM or Instructor, do you consider your saftey above that of the certified diver you're leading? Rescue turns to Recovery very quickly and without the proper gear on site a rescue may not have been possible.

How long in to the dive did the accident take place? This is an important aspect to determine how much gas the diver in question may have had. That leads to the question, how long did it take the instructor to reach 170ft. That leads to, what is the likelyhood that the rescue had turned in to a recovery.
Nope, I don't think the second Pro had a chance, seeing only bubbles below from 170. I've known some go deeper on 80s, but I wouldn't ask anyone to.

The DM had a change at 100 ft tho, based on the info at hand, but missed that one. A fumble? That was do or don't time, and don't won.
I agree completely. The story doesn't add up without additional details. A divemaster should be able to release the diver, get behind them, grab the valve, inflate their own Bc, kick like hell and haul a disoriented diver from 100 (or 200) up to 50 feet or so and then make another attempt to gently convince the diver to ascend.

I used to see some dive guides use a backpack and no BC and it always scared me because I felt that they lacked the reserve bouyancy to physically haul someone up from the depths in an emergency.
Yep. Or I think so. I don't think a petite would DM would wear a BD with a lot of lift, but one would hope enough to bring up a narced diver. May have to drop some lead...?? :confused:
That's a good point that was brought up recently in the other accident thread. I believe it was Thal that mentioned the value in a diver having a personal limit, decided before hand that they felt comfortable with when helping another diver. It's not a decision you want to make under stress.
Yes & No. It's good to train, think, discuss, think, plan on what ifs - but sometime you do the best you can in the instant you gotta do it, and hope it was a good play.

[ScubaSteve]

I will preempt this question stating that I have only done a quick search, but that quick search only turned up articles on a missing diver in the Bahamas from CDNN. I do not trust what CDNN puts into print so I am asking if anybody out there has infomration out there that can at least be confirmed from a source other than CDNN. I am not saying this incident is not true, I am just saying that before I get too caught up in a heated debate, I would like to know that at least some form of "semi-respectable" news agency has run the story (and obviously FTR CDNN is not even close to semi-respectable).

Thanks to anyone who is able to share confirming links.

[pilot fish]

Is it possible that the female dive master was just intimidated by flailing diver and was too afraid of having her own reg pulled out of her mouth so did not attempt to get behind her to grab her tank value? is it fair to say that a hired Dm should be able to go that one extra step?

I'm not rescue trained but I know a tiny bit of it, having been told by rescue divers and READING IT ON THIS BOARD. Perhaps the DM approach was incorrect from the start? Instead of approaching the diver from the front, that you are trying to rescue, you go directly to the rear of the diver and just grab the tank? Was the DM in fact a certified DM, or was she a DG?

[TheScubaBOB]

So now we're gonna dump on the DM because she "allowed" the missing diver to push her away?

We don't know what happened there. What if....

The DM was trying to get to her weights or inflator and seeign the resistance she decided to move around behind the diver and during this maneuver the diver dropped further (beyond the depth the DM felt safe to continue her efforts).

In Rescue they pound into your head "Don't let 1 victim become 2". I have a wife & 3 kids, you can't pay me enough money to put your safety before my ability to return to them.

[onlyhalcyon]

I am currently on vacation in the Bahamas and only joined this site after reading the posts. I am the primary witness to the dive incident involving Mrs Wood. I will post my account of what happened once I get back to NY and once the Forensic Dive Investigation team has had a chance to talk with all the people involved. I would like to say that prior to talking with the Dive Investigator I had similar views to the posts above. However what we are all missing is the DM's account of what happened. After talking with both the DM and the FDI I now have a clearer understanding of what transpired that morning.

[ScubaSteve]

But again, there has been nothing anywhere on the news? No newspaper has run anything? I find it hard to believe that neither a Bahamian news source nor any local (to where the diver was from) news sources have run anything at all on this. With only CDNN to validate.....alarms go off in my head. Further searches have returned nothing (not to say nothing exists) so I have to come back to the fact that CDNN is not a trustworthy source.

[bleeb]

But again, there has been nothing anywhere on the news? No newspaper has run anything? I find it hard to believe that neither a Bahamian news source nor any local (to where the diver was from) news sources have run anything at all on this. With only CDNN to validate.....alarms go off in my head. Further searches have returned nothing (not to say nothing exists) so I have to come back to the fact that CDNN is not a trustworthy source.

At the risk of getting further off topic, I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you, ScubaSteve, but wanted to toss a couple of thoughts about the lack of information in 'traditional' news media out for consideration.

It's been alleged before here in Accidents and Incidents that some vacation areas may have a tendency to not want to publicize problems that may scare tourists. This may be a common societal attitude and the local news media may not have any interest in publicising accidents, or may just not consider it news-worthy by local standards. The comment has also been made more than once that the rest of the world wouldn't even know about these fatalities if it weren't for family and fellow-diver/tourist witnesses and the Internet.

Two: IIRC, the latest DAN Accident Report counted over one hundred dive fatalities a year in Canada and the US alone. That's a couple every week, even assuming they're evenly spread throughout the year. Don't think there are that many discussion thread here in A&I, although the vast majority of these probably at least result in a brief statement in some local news.

[promocop]

onlyhalcyon...we await your report. Dive Safe.

[cappyjon431]

I usually hate to conjecture on these types of incidents, because of my sensitivity towards the victims' families. Sometimes it seems like pouring salt into an open wound.

On the other hand, this incident reminds me of an experience I had working on a liveaboard many years ago (mid 90s). We had a gentleman come out on the boat that we had to warn about diving deeper than 130' because other guests had reported him diving too deep. We approached him about it and he denied it. The guy also drank a whole lot (each night, after the diving day had concluded).

One evening the guy (very intoxicated) confessed to the captain that he had come out on the boat to commit suicide. His business had failed, his wife had left him, and he wanted to end it all doing what he loved most. The captain spoke with him at length and explained that he was done diving for the week. The captain had us confiscate his dive gear and made sure the night watch crew knew where he was at all times. The guy actually turned out to be pretty cool the rest of the week, and I know the captain had heard from him about a year after the cruise, so hopefully he got his life together.

Is it possible the victim was attempting suicide? It would explain fighting off the DM. It might also explain the media blackout (here in the resort area I live suicides are never reported, although they do occur). I absolutely hate to bring this up as a possibility, but since I had experienced this type of behavior first-hand, it is always in my thoughts.

[pilot fish]

cappyjon, I also had wondered about that but then thought, why would she do it in front of her husband?

[Cave Diver]

I usually hate to conjecture on these types of incidents, because of my sensitivity towards the victims' families. Sometimes it seems like pouring salt into an open wound.

On the other hand, this incident reminds me of an experience I had working on a liveaboard many years ago (mid 90s). We had a gentleman come out on the boat that we had to warn about diving deeper than 130' because other guests had reported him diving too deep. We approached him about it and he denied it. The guy also drank a whole lot (each night, after the diving day had concluded).

One evening the guy (very intoxicated) confessed to the captain that he had come out on the boat to commit suicide. His business had failed, his wife had left him, and he wanted to end it all doing what he loved most. The captain spoke with him at length and explained that he was done diving for the week. The captain had us confiscate his dive gear and made sure the night watch crew knew where he was at all times. The guy actually turned out to be pretty cool the rest of the week, and I know the captain had heard from him about a year after the cruise, so hopefully he got his life together.

Is it possible the victim was attempting suicide? It would explain fighting off the DM. It might also explain the media blackout (here in the resort area I live suicides are never reported, although they do occur). I absolutely hate to bring this up as a possibility, but since I had experienced this type of behavior first-hand, it is always in my thoughts.

The thought has crossed my mind, as well as the minds of few others I've communicated with as well.

We'll just have to wait and see if any new information comes out and if it sheds any light on the situation.

[Rhone Man]

Pretty speculative unless they find a note. But on the other hand, if you are going to do it, I suppose it is as good a way as any - just slowly lose consciouness at a certain depth.

In a way, I suppose that would be the "least sad" result. Every death is its own small tragedy, but it must be less tragic if the deceased wanted to die than if they didn't. I suspect that would be little consolation to the family.

[DandyDon]

I bet many of us thot about it Cappy, but that's a wild speculation even for a what-if discussion - with little possible take-away knowledge to be gained for any reader. Let's not discuss that one folks, OK?

Yes, it's common for dive tourist destinations to try to keep news of accidents from getting out. Glad we have some input from divers who were there. I'm packing for a dive practice weekend, looking forward to additional info from onlyhalcyon, and going to try to avoid fueling speculations here further.

ty

[ScubaSteve]

.....


Finally! You and I agree on something :D! ..... Indeed.

We did discuss the possibility that suicide was an option but I unfortunately believe that the one person that could confirm that, has lost their life. I think suicide would fit in many ways for the limited amount we know, but I still believe that we will never know for sure.

[JonKranhouse]

No newspaper has run anything? I find it hard to believe that neither a Bahamian news source nor any local (to where the diver was from) news sources have run anything at all on this.

It's been alleged before here in Accidents and Incidents that some vacation areas may have a tendency to not want to publicize problems that may scare tourists.

Actually, this fatality -- and a second snorkeling fatality -- both occurred the same day, per a single brief story from a Taiwan paper / website that picks up international news-feeds from agencies (AP / UPI / Reuters, etc.) (http://www.etaiwannews.com/etn/news_content.php?id=967962&lang=eng_news)

Further searches have returned nothing (not to say nothing exists) so I have to come back to the fact that CDNN is not a trustworthy source.

Why has it become lore here on SB that CDNN is not trustworthy? Should they link back to their original source? (But typical news sites pull their stories after a few days / weeks.)

[cappyjon431]

cappyjon, I also had wondered about that but then thought, why would she do it in front of her husband?

Not to sound too calloused, but maybe she was pissed at him. It is all speculation at this point, no one really has any idea and I hate to add fuel to the fire. It is just a theory based on one of my own experiences.

I will say that what came out of this experience for me was that the company I worked for addressed how we (as employees) are to respond if we observe a diver descending past recreational dive limits (regardless of the reasons). They said that we were in no way supposed to dive deeper than 130' to retrieve/assist a diver due to liability issues. Of course as an employee I said "sure, no problem." As a human being (and a trained tech diver), I'm going to do whatever I can to help that diver ascend and not endanger myself or others.

[cappyjon431]

I bet many of us thot about it Cappy, but that's a wild speculation even for a what-if discussion - with little possible take-away knowledge to be gained for any reader. Let's not discuss that one folks, OK?

Yes, it's common for dive tourist destinations to try to keep news of accidents from getting out. Glad we have some input from divers who were there. I'm packing for a dive practice weekend, looking forward to additional info from onlyhalcyon, and going to try to avoid fueling speculations here further.

ty

Please don't take this the wrong way, and I mean no disrespect, but EVERYTHING to this point is speculation (or "wild speculation" as you called my post). We have absolutely no substantiation of any causes for this fatality.

I've seen on this thread that she was narced-speculation.
I've seen on this thread that she must have been a new diver-speculation
I've seen on this thread that maybe the DM was too petit to handle the diver-speculation
I've seen on this thread that maybe the DM was incompetent to properly assist-speculation

I simply brought this up as a possibility (while acknowledging in my first post this was speculation and that I hate to speculate) because I have lived through an experience which influenced how I view some dive fatalities. My experience was something that actually happened, and despite what you claim about this adding nothing to the discussion, this is something that divers and dive professionals should be prepared for. I know I am forever grateful to the captain who showed me how to handle this type of situation when and if it ever occurs. I learned a great deal that day.

[khacken]

I love how everyone immediately blames the rescuer.

[Cave Diver]

Please don't take this the wrong way, and I mean no disrespect, but EVERYTHING to this point is speculation (or "wild speculation" as you called my post).

You're not alone in your thinking.

[Cave Diver]

Finally! You and I agree on something :D! ..... Indeed.


Last time we agreed a thread got locked. You're such a cynic. ;)

[deepstops]

You're not alone in your thinking.

CD and I exchanged PMs on this possibility this morning before CappyJon posted so yes, it probably crossed lots of people's minds.

Not to sound cold/callous, but it would ensure payout on any insurance policy.

[ScubaSteve]

Actually, this fatality -- and a second snorkeling fatality -- both occurred the same day, per a single brief story from a Taiwan paper / website that picks up international news-feeds from agencies (AP / UPI / Reuters, etc.) (http://www.etaiwannews.com/etn/news_content.php?id=967962&lang=eng_news)

Why has it become lore here on SB that CDNN is not trustworthy? Should they link back to their original source? (But typical news sites pull their stories after a few days / weeks.)

First of all, thank you for the link. I searched on several combinations of words and only ever came up with the CDNN links and SB links to this thread. As for CDNN and how trustworthy they are (or are not), I suppose if you wish to put faith in what they write then that is your choice. We all have the ability and right to make that decision for ourselves. I have made my decision after a couple years of reading their articles which I have concluded for myself (could I be wrong? Sure) were wild speculation, creatively written to impress their following and often times contained few similarities to stories being run by multiple other sources. Bottom line is, MANY here believe them to be the "National Enquirer" of the SCUBA Industry and I am one of them. To each their own. Thank you for the link.

Please don't take this the wrong way, and I mean no disrespect, but EVERYTHING to this point is speculation (or "wild speculation" as you called my post). We have absolutely no substantiation of any causes for this fatality.

As CD stated already, you are not alone in this thought process.

Last time we agreed a thread got locked. You're such a cynic. ;)

I'm telling :rofl3:

[DandyDon]

Why has it become lore here on SB that CDNN is not trustworthy? Should they link back to their original source? (But typical news sites pull their stories after a few days / weeks.)
CDNN has clearly displayed very poor journalism standards and was blocked from even being linked or mentioned on SB for some time, but that caused some controversy - so now we just warn others: If you like CDNN, you'll love the National Enquirer and UK Sun for facts.
I love how everyone immediately blames the rescuer.
I think we questioned? She had one chance to bring the diver back, a heroic one to be sure, but a chance - and seems to have missed one we're taught in Rescue to deal with. Saving divers from their own mistakes is a part of being a tourist destination DM to some extent, and I think it was said that this one had been hired by the couple as a private DM

[dumpsterDiver]

....
I'm not rescue trained but I know a tiny bit of it, having been told by rescue divers and READING IT ON THIS BOARD. Perhaps the DM approach was incorrect from the start? Instead of approaching the diver from the front, that you are trying to rescue, you go directly to the rear of the diver and just grab the tank? Was the DM in fact a certified DM, or was she a DG?

I would definitely approach the diver from the front, get in their face and grab ahold of their BC if they looked overly stressed. that would be my first step, only if the diver was really flailing around, would I result to drastic action and physically haul the diver to the surface.

Also, I never said the DM was incompetant, I indicated that the story seems incomplete.

[Rhone Man]

Not to sound cold/callous, but it would ensure payout on any insurance policy.

I never thought of that. Although strangely enough, fewer and fewer life insurance policies have "suicide carve outs" these days (except for an initial period, for obvious reasons).

[Rhone Man]

CDNN has clearly displayed very poor journalism standards and was blocked from even being linked or mentioned on SB for some time, but that caused some controversy - so now we just warn others: If you like CDNN, you'll love the National Enquirer and UK Sun for facts.

To be fair, CDNN rarely make stuff up out of the blue (other than their advertisements). What they do is embellish and spin stories in a fairly gratuitious way. Nobody who knows them likes them (except maybe their mothers), but I don't think anyone has ever accused them of flat making stuff up.

[dumpsterDiver]

I think at the next shop meeting I'm going to bring this question to the table. Whil leading a dive, to what extent should we go to rescue a diver? I'm not talking just let someone go off and do something crazy, but in this case, if I was the instructor at 170ft, what would the dive operator expect of me, what would I expect of myself and what do our customers expect from us?

I've been on boats before where they clearly tell us, if we start to swim down the wall, the DM will only be able to follow us so far/long before they have to give up for their own saftey.


Your post is amazing to me. You are a dive professional and you have not gone through numerous mental exercises of rescues? Isn't THAT one of the prmary reasons you are WORKING?

The question is not what a dive operator is expecting of you, the question is what are you expecting of yourself? If you are not willing to act like a professional and sacrifice your own safety in an attempt to rescue an individual, then seriously, what are you doing the job for?

Obviously this doesn't mean to engage in suicidal behavoir or diving to 450 feet looking for some bubbles, but you MUST be willing to stick your neck out a little to do your job. If you haven't gone over this stuff a bunch of times, how can you be confident that your reaction time will be short enough and your actions be effective enough to help?

I no longer teach scuba diving because I am unwilling to accept the responsibility for random divers. If you continue to work as a professional then you need to be confident in your response to a relatively simple situation like a diver falling down a wall.

[deepstops]

To be fair, CDNN rarely make stuff up out of the blue (other than their advertisements). What they do is embellish and spin stories in a fairly gratuitious way. Nobody who knows them likes them (except maybe their mothers), but I don't think anyone has ever accused them of flat making stuff up.


Agreed, and whatever news search engine they use, it kicks the Google and Yahoo news search engines collective butts. It's very rare that I can't find one their stories in some online newspaper but it's often that Google/Yahoo fails to find the result.

[deepstops]

Your post is amazing to me. You are a dive professional and you have not gone through numerous mental exercises of rescues? Isn't THAT one of the prmary reasons you are WORKING?

The question is not what a dive operator is expecting of you, the question is what are you expecting of yourself? If you are not willing to act like a professional and sacrifice your own safety in an attempt to rescue an individual, then seriously, what are you doing the job for?

I have to agree here. I hope it's not because it's cool and a great conversation starter when picking up chicks in the bar :rofl3:

[Rhone Man]

Not to hijack the thread, but I was reading a book about diving accidents the other day, and it was saying how dive professionals can go for years without seeing an accident, and so when the time comes their skills are often very rusty and they can get flustered (generalising here, of course).

I remember thinking to myself, if I am an insurance underwriter for a dive company, I think I want to write into their contract that they take all staff out "on maneuvres" at least once a year to practice rescue drills and really have the DMs put through their paces. When the time comes, somebody's life (lives?) are on the line, so let's prepare like that is what is at stake.

I wonder if many dive ops do things like that? It would be hard given the shoe-string budget that many operations are forced to run on.

[fisheyeview]

Not to hijack the thread, but I was reading a book about diving accidents the other day, and it was saying how dive professionals can go for years without seeing an accident, and so when the time comes their skills are often very rusty and they can get flustered (generalising here, of course).

I remember thinking to myself, if I am an insurance underwriter for a dive company, I think I want to write into their contract that they take all staff out "on maneuvres" at least once a year to practice rescue drills and really have the DMs put through their paces. When the time comes, somebody's life (lives?) are on the line, so let's prepare like that is what is at stake.

I wonder if many dive ops do things like that? It would be hard given the shoe-string budget that many operations are forced to run on.

When I used to DM through a shop we did this all the time. They probably taught 6 - 10 rescue classes a year. Believe me. Every DM worked those classes. That's where all the fun was for us.

[khacken]

Your post is amazing to me. You are a dive professional and you have not gone through numerous mental exercises of rescues? Isn't THAT one of the prmary reasons you are WORKING?

The question is not what a dive operator is expecting of you, the question is what are you expecting of yourself? If you are not willing to act like a professional and sacrifice your own safety in an attempt to rescue an individual, then seriously, what are you doing the job for?

Obviously this doesn't mean to engage in suicidal behavoir or diving to 450 feet looking for some bubbles, but you MUST be willing to stick your neck out a little to do your job. If you haven't gone over this stuff a bunch of times, how can you be confident that your reaction time will be short enough and your actions be effective enough to help?


You seriously don't think that chasing the victim to 170 was not risky and that the instructor did not stick his/her neck out? IMHO performing a rescue at 170 on air on a single tank is extremely risky. I am glad the DM and the instructor back ok.

I want to hear all the details, but from what we have so far, the DM and the instructor went beyond the call of duty and should be applauded, not nit picked. I don't care if the DM was hired specifically for the victim or not.

[mikemath]

I remember thinking to myself, if I am an insurance underwriter for a dive company, I think I want to write into their contract that they take all staff out "on maneuvres" at least once a year to practice rescue drills and really have the DMs put through their paces. When the time comes, somebody's life (lives?) are on the line, so let's prepare like that is what is at stake.

I wonder if many dive ops do things like that? It would be hard given the shoe-string budget that many operations are forced to run on.

To make our PADI Rescue class more fun, my LDS conducts bi-annual Rescue Days, where all Rescue students, DMCs, DMs, and Instructors head to a remote beach to run scenarios (remote so that passers-by don't call 911 when they see us dragging someone out of the water). It ends up being a good get-together and brushes everyone up on basic rescue skills. It may not be as thorough as instructor-level risk management procedures, but the Rescue class is the foundation for those skills.

[Splash-X]

Your post is amazing to me. You are a dive professional and you have not gone through numerous mental exercises of rescues? Isn't THAT one of the prmary reasons you are WORKING?

The question is not what a dive operator is expecting of you, the question is what are you expecting of yourself? If you are not willing to act like a professional and sacrifice your own safety in an attempt to rescue an individual, then seriously, what are you doing the job for?

Obviously this doesn't mean to engage in suicidal behavoir or diving to 450 feet looking for some bubbles, but you MUST be willing to stick your neck out a little to do your job. If you haven't gone over this stuff a bunch of times, how can you be confident that your reaction time will be short enough and your actions be effective enough to help?

I no longer teach scuba diving because I am unwilling to accept the responsibility for random divers. If you continue to work as a professional then you need to be confident in your response to a relatively simple situation like a diver falling down a wall.

And what do you define as "sticking your neck out a little"? Does a leader diving to a depth of 170ft not classify itself as a "sticking your neck out"?

My exact reasoning for asking that question and bringing the topic up is to discuss what is reasonable to one may not be reasonable to another. If the person went missing half way through a dive and trailed off in to the abyss how long would half their air supply (half a dive, roughly 1/2 the air left) last at say 150ft? How long did it take the instructor to get to 170ft and how much reasonable time would have been left to rescue rather than recover the person.

My training tells me that I should not cause another victim to attempt to rescue someone. At 170ft, if all I see are bubble trails and thats it, I'm calling off my rescue.

I'm not talking about the initial DM / diver interaction where the DM was unable to prevent the diver from descending I'm talking about having reached XXX depth and having no chance of rescue.

[LeadTurn_SD]

.....

It's been alleged before here in Accidents and Incidents that some vacation areas may have a tendency to not want to publicize problems that may scare tourists. This may be a common societal attitude and the local news media may not have any interest in publicising accidents, or may just not consider it news-worthy by local standards. The comment has also been made more than once that the rest of the world wouldn't even know about these fatalities if it weren't for family and fellow-diver/tourist witnesses and the Internet....

Having lived most of my life in a "vacation area", I agree that incidents that might scare away tourists are often not given a lot of news coverage. I'd guess that tendancy could be worse in areas where the press is not as "free" as in the United States.

Best wishes.

[LeadTurn_SD]

....My training tells me that I should not cause another victim to attempt to rescue someone. At 170ft, if all I see are bubble trails and thats it, I'm calling off my rescue.

I'm not talking about the initial DM / diver interaction where the DM was unable to prevent the diver from descending I'm talking about having reached XXX depth and having no chance of rescue.

And that sounds perfectly reasonable. The depth could be 150, 130.... I think what Dumpsterdiver was getting at was this needs to be decided by the dive pro well in advance. It is a likely scenario, and one that should be decided in advance. In detail.

As in, at a given point in the dive, with "x" amount of air remaining in my tank, how deep can I reasonably expect to be able to go and bring up a non-responsive diver?

How deep am I willing to go for a rescue under perfect conditions (early in the dive, lots of air, minimal nitrogen load)?

How deep have I ever gone on air? This gives me some perspective on what I know I can do based on past experience.

Those things are considerations (and I'm not implying that you have not gone through those scenarios personally, this is just for general discussion).

Best wishes.

[Splash-X]

And that sounds perfectly reasonable. The depth could be 150, 130.... I think what Dumpsterdiver was getting at was this needs to be decided by the dive pro well in advance. It is a likely scenario, and one that should be decided in advance. In detail.

That was my intent, to bring the question to all of the instructors/DMs at my LDS so they have food for thought.

dumpsterDiver is ripping me a new one and questioning why I DM for bringing the question up. What do I, my fellow DMs/Instructors and my LDS deem as reasonable and unreasonable?

If these things are not talked about BEFORE an accident the only time it will be addressed is after in a thread like this. The purpose of this part of the forum is to learn from this accident and I intend to push the topic with my LDS for their input.

[LeadTurn_SD]

....If these things are not talked about BEFORE an accident the only time it will be addressed is after in a thread like this. The purpose of this part of the forum is to learn from this accident and I intend to push the topic with my LDS for their input.

Agree 100%. Especially thinking about and discussing the topic in advance.

A 2nd part of this should be to clearly communicate in a dive briefing the risks of diving along a "bottomless" wall. I think most good DM's already do this, but some may forget, get rushed, or take it for granted that the divers understand the risks involved.

A simple: "You need to monitor your depth very closely on this dive. Do not go below _____ feet. Narcosis and lack of a hard bottom at this site can quickly result in a dangerous situation, and if you accidently drop below _____ feet, we cannot help you. Divers have died at this site. So have fun, but pay very close attention and stay with the DM, etc., etc."

Best wishes.

[Rhone Man]

I would have thought dive operators would like to have policies in place for how far their staff are expected to go to rescue customers for their own protection. If a DM got seriously injured or died going down to 200 feet after somebody, you can bet your life that an employer's liability claim against the operator would be considered. Best defence is: we told you not to do that.

[cappyjon431]

I would have thought dive operators would like to have policies in place for how far their staff are expected to go to rescue customers for their own protection. If a DM got seriously injured or died going down to 200 feet after somebody, you can bet your life that an employer's liability claim against the operator would be considered. Best defence is: we told you not to do that.

I can't speak for all operators, but the one which I worked for for almost ten years had a very strict rule against crew members diving past 130' for any reason. Their rationale was multifold: 1. Liability-if a crew member gets hurt diving in excess of recreational dive limits, the company will end up paying a lot of money. 2. If a crew member gets hurt or dies diving deeper than recereational limits, you have many guests who could be angry if a trip is cut short for an evacuation or a body recovery. 3. It serves as a bad example. If the crew can dive deeper than 130', guests can legitimately ask "why can't I?"

Don't get me wrong, I love to dive deep (most of my friends know what the 431 in my screen name stands for ;)), but I certainly understood the rationale for my company's policy. That being said, sometimes a dive profesional's conscience outweighs a corporate policy. Fortunately I never had to dive too deeply to assist a rapidly descending diver, but if it was something I saw, I think I would have to say screw the policy.

[dumpsterDiver]

If these things are not talked about BEFORE an accident the only time it will be addressed is after in a thread like this. The purpose of this part of the forum is to learn from this accident and I intend to push the topic with my LDS for their input.

Exactly! The good DM should have a good handle on what they are capable of doing and also what they will do in situations that might commonly arise:

A diver falling down a wall
A bouyant diver shooting for the surface
A diver who runs completely out of air at depth
A diver who panics when their lips get wet upon entry
A diver who is hyperventilating, flailing around and looks ready to bolt for the surface
A diver who is paniced on the surface after a dive.
A diver who begins to climb an anchor line on a big boat in big seas while anchored in a current (that was a fun one for me).
A diver who enters a wreck and requires you to swim in 50 feet and lead them out.

And BEFORE the Dive: How far will you stick your neck out and risk looking like a know-it-all jerk in order to prevent a problem before it occurs:
Like how to handle:

A diver who is not properly equiped for a dive.
A diver who looks too nervous to safely make a dive
A diver who is obviously overly dependent on their buddy
How to explain the risks of a particular dive and try to get the diver to bail out on a dive on their own during the breifing (if that is necessary)


In many respects, a DM has a much harder job than an instructor because he is required to deal with completely unfamiliar divers and he needs to make decisions based on a gut feeling and experience.

[InTheDrink]

I haven't got a huge amount of sympathy for divers that knowingly go to dangerous depths or depths deeper than the max depth from the brief. Operating word is 'knowing' or 'intentionally'. Divers who know what they're doing and that then do something risky are on their own in my book. And if they put themselves in danger they are likely putting the whole group at risk for countless reasons. Sure save them if reasonable, but they're big boys and girls now. It is very selfish.

My exception to this rules is newbies. Standards are so low these days that is easy for a novice to get into a situation they have no understanding of. These people I don't hold to blame but I hope that a good DM knows the limitations of their group. Usually DMs will make sure everyone has done a check dive to ascertain their dive-level.

[danclem]

Sorry to get back to the incident, but I believe more information will surface as the investigation continues. I do not believe the interaction between the missing diver and DM has been fulluy covered. I did not see this interaction and have refrained from relaying what the witness to this event saw, and what the investigators retained by the insurance company representing the dive company relayed during their interviews.

I think it is appropriate to avoid pointing fingers as to whom might be at fault until more details emerge. Everyone involved views what happened through their own prisms, and it is really difficult to get a full picture until the investigation(s) are concluded.

I would also be careful about slamming the Bahamian media too strongly. A report did air on local TV, and there were several significant local events taking place: a young man in police custody killed, an MP locked out of Parliament for seeking to address the incident, and the fact that Friday, June 5 is a national holiday.

Most of us are aware of two or three things that might have, either alone or combined, caused this type of situation. There needs to be a fuller picture of what happened in this specific incident so we can best determine how to try and avoid similar events in the future.

Dan

[MEG DIVER]

Hello I was there the dive started out as any other a great place to dive being one of the first in the water I was also the first out follow by the DM or a guy and his wife who told me that the DM and her partner had got split , he brought this to her attention wile still on the dive ,she gets out of her gear goes to the bow of the boat and sits down with her back to us ,an starts texting someone. 6 to 8 minutes later the Instructor learns that we are missing a diver , he the goes to the DM on the bow and comes back quickly regears up an is back in the water from the time he got on the boat in less than 6 minutes ,searches for about 35 minutes with another diver and 3 others on top with snorkels, We had to pull anchor to pick up the instructor and the other diver some 200 to 300 yards away. After that a smaller dive boat cames in with 2 more divers on it in which Mr. Wood and his friend then got on that boat and we left ,we get stopped again by another dive boat and the DM gets on it an they make there way in. We dive the James Bond Wreck then we go in. All I can say is that I have learnd a lesson I will never leave my partner.

[Web Monkey]

Is it possible that the female dive master was just intimidated by flailing diver and was too afraid of having her own reg pulled out of her mouth so did not attempt to get behind her to grab her tank value? is it fair to say that a hired Dm should be able to go that one extra step?

I'd say so.

Gender aside, anybody who's going to be responsible for other divers needs to have the b***s to make a decision and implement it. If the DM got within grabbing distance, this should have been in the "near misses" section.

Am I the only one who's a little creeped out by these deaths while accompanied by a DM?

This is another instance where a nice shallow dive-site with a flat bottom and no DM would have made for safe dives all the way around.

"We're anchored in about 40' of water. jump in, stick with your buddy, have fun and don't touch anything. When you or your buddy hits 900 PSI, come back up the line.. Don't forget your safety stop, and enjoy!"

Why is this not happening? What's the profit motive for taking new divers to places where they can get killed?

Terry

[MEG DIVER]

the DM was a she

[MEG DIVER]

thats what I would have like to have done but the wall is a great dive ,and I truely think that this is not about lacation it about keeping up with your dive partner , its a bad thing ,when this happen it left me with an empty gut feeling. I only wish my partner an myself would have been the last ones in .

[Doubler]

CDNN has clearly displayed very poor journalism standards and was blocked from even being linked or mentioned on SB for some time, but that caused some controversy - so now we just warn others: If you like CDNN, you'll love the National Enquirer and UK Sun for facts.

I think we questioned? She had one chance to bring the diver back, a heroic one to be sure, but a chance - and seems to have missed one we're taught in Rescue to deal with. Saving divers from their own mistakes is a part of being a tourist destination DM to some extent, and I think it was said that this one had been hired by the couple as a private DM

Okay I can't take it anymore. There is another thread dealing with ALMOST this same situation, only most on this board think the guy murdered his wife, some one please explain the difference, trained DM WITNESSED wrestling with a diver, diver drowns. A Trained Rescue Diver WITNESSED GIVING Wife a bearhug, wife drowns, husband goes to prison. In certain situations trying to gain control from behid could look like a bear hug. I am not an aplogist for this guy but I see no difference in the general situation.

[Katamuki]

While this is a huge tragedy some of the speculation is also pretty wild. If the DM was unable to grab/persuade a diver at 100 ft to ascend and then had the skill to safely descend and ascend with an AL80 who is anyone on this board to 2nd guess them? Thats not an easy dive without an irritated diver at 100ft to contend with.

As for the girl comment, grow up a bit. In southern Japan on the Island of Yanaguni most of the DMs are women. The waters there would make most of the people on this board faint dead away in my opinion. Its common to have 15-20 ft seas with wind and current exceeding 4 knots. All the dives are below 30 meters because thats where the 6+ meter hammerheads are. Slamming the DM because she is a woman just makes the argument ridiculous.

As for rescueing someone who is agitated and struggling from 100 ft who is descending quickly by inflating your BC, wow that is a HUGE risk. If you are knocked away just where do you think your going to go and how fast? Not a brilliant rescue plan.

And the comment about expecting to risk your neck as a DM for a diver as part of the job is out of whack to me as well. I think you might expect too much out of a DM...

[TheScubaBOB]

Okay I can't take it anymore. There is another thread dealing with ALMOST this same situation, only most on this board think the guy murdered his wife, some one please explain the difference, trained DM WITNESSED wrestling with a diver, diver drowns. A Trained Rescue Diver WITNESSED GIVING Wife a bearhug, wife drowns, husband goes to prison. In certain situations trying to gain control from behid could look like a bear hug. I am not an aplogist for this guy but I see no difference in the general situation.

Except Gabe Watson's story about what happened changed 12 times, he came home and in very sort order was re-married.

Maybe we should wait 6 months and see if this DM gets hired by a new buddy!

Seriously though we shouldn't get the two intermingled. Maybe starting a new thread do examine the trend of new divers deaths while apparently under supervision of Dive professionals/experienced divers would be more appropriate for that sidetrack..

[dumpsterDiver]

While this is a huge tragedy some of the speculation is also pretty wild. If the DM was unable to grab/persuade a diver at 100 ft to ascend and then had the skill to safely descend and ascend with an AL80 who is anyone on this board to 2nd guess them? Thats not an easy dive without an irritated diver at 100ft to contend with.

As for the girl comment, grow up a bit. In southern Japan on the Island of Yanaguni most of the DMs are women. The waters there would make most of the people on this board faint dead away in my opinion. Its common to have 15-20 ft seas with wind and current exceeding 4 knots. All the dives are below 30 meters because thats where the 6+ meter hammerheads are. Slamming the DM because she is a woman just makes the argument ridiculous.

As for rescueing someone who is agitated and struggling from 100 ft who is descending quickly by inflating your BC, wow that is a HUGE risk. If you are knocked away just where do you think your going to go and how fast? Not a brilliant rescue plan.

And the comment about expecting to risk your neck as a DM for a diver as part of the job is out of whack to me as well. I think you might expect too much out of a DM...

So we shouldn't dis women.. but a 100 ft dive is very hard and a DM job is only to point out pretty fish and oh yeah some little Japanese women lead dives in 20 ft seas...Sorry I forgot all that important stuff. :shakehead::shakehead::shakehead:

If in a rescue situation, a diver inflates their BC and looses grip of the victim, the recuer needs to simply roll over, exhale, flare out and dump air from BC. There is no need to be 30 lbs bouyant to bring a dive up, you only need enough lift to get the two of you moving at a reasonable and safe pace.

[Web Monkey]

some one please explain the difference, trained DM WITNESSED wrestling with a diver, diver drowns. A Trained Rescue Diver WITNESSED GIVING Wife a bearhug, wife drowns, husband goes to prison. In certain situations trying to gain control from behid could look like a bear hug.

Absolutely not. They're completely different.

Control from behind in a rescue looks like "you holding a tank valve".

It looks nothing like a bear hug. The very last think you want is any part of your body within grabbing distance of the victim.

Terry

[DandyDon]

Please! This thread has nothing to do with Gabe Watson, and we have enough confusion. Stow it, please.
Hello I was there the dive started out as any other a great place to dive being one of the first in the water I was also the first out follow by the DM or a guy and his wife who told me that the DM and her partner had got split , he brought this to her attention wile still on the dive ,she gets out of her gear goes to the bow of the boat and sits down with her back to us ,an starts texting someone. 6 to 8 minutes later the Instructor learns that we are missing a diver , he the goes to the DM on the bow and comes back quickly regears up an is back in the water from the time he got on the boat in less than 6 minutes ,searches for about 35 minutes with another diver and 3 others on top with snorkels, We had to pull anchor to pick up the instructor and the other diver some 200 to 300 yards away. After that a smaller dive boat cames in with 2 more divers on it in which Mr. Wood and his friend then got on that boat and we left ,we get stopped again by another dive boat and the DM gets on it an they make there way in. We dive the James Bond Wreck then we go in. All I can say is that I have learnd a lesson I will never leave my partner.
Thank you very much for posting. I know this must be stressful for you, and do allow us to assist if we may. Talking it out with supportive divers can indeed help - maybe on a new thread? Maybe on Basic Scuba forum for that aspect.

Communicating by typing on the net can be challenging at times, I know I screw up at times, other times just mistaken by others, but I am challenged to follow your explanation. Maybe there are some missing words or commas that might help?

If I understand you correctly tho: Do you mean the DM got "out of her gear goes to the bow of the boat and sits down with her back to us ,an starts texting someone" after losing a diver? Damn?! :shocked2: "6 to 8 minutes later the Instructor learns that we are missing a diver" Damn damn damn! Was this because the Inst had still been in the water for that period, or just because the DM did not raise an alarm? Damn!
While this is a huge tragedy some of the speculation is also pretty wild. If the DM was unable to grab/persuade a diver at 100 ft to ascend and then had the skill to safely descend and ascend with an AL80 who is anyone on this board to 2nd guess them? Thats not an easy dive without an irritated diver at 100ft to contend with.

As for rescueing someone who is agitated and struggling from 100 ft who is descending quickly by inflating your BC, wow that is a HUGE risk. If you are knocked away just where do you think your going to go and how fast? Not a brilliant rescue plan.

And the comment about expecting to risk your neck as a DM for a diver as part of the job is out of whack to me as well. I think you might expect too much out of a DM...
You don't state your dive history on your profile do you? You done the Rescue course? I'm not a DM or other pro, but done that course - and while I want to make sure I don't become the second victim, if I can't assist from the front because of possible panic or whatever, injury or worse imminent, then I am going to get behind and go for the control. That's how the training goes. Divers panic and/or narc out in the water and when caca hits fan, seconds can matter greatly in preventing an accident. I've never been on a trip with a diver who died, but a couple have come close, 6 have left in ambulances.

[gcbryan]

Hello I was there the dive started out as any other a great place to dive being one of the first in the water I was also the first out follow by the DM or a guy and his wife who told me that the DM and her partner had got split , he brought this to her attention wile still on the dive ,she gets out of her gear goes to the bow of the boat and sits down with her back to us ,an starts texting someone. 6 to 8 minutes later the Instructor learns that we are missing a diver , he the goes to the DM on the bow and comes back quickly regears up an is back in the water from the time he got on the boat in less than 6 minutes ,searches for about 35 minutes with another diver and 3 others on top with snorkels, We had to pull anchor to pick up the instructor and the other diver some 200 to 300 yards away. After that a smaller dive boat cames in with 2 more divers on it in which Mr. Wood and his friend then got on that boat and we left ,we get stopped again by another dive boat and the DM gets on it an they make there way in. We dive the James Bond Wreck then we go in. All I can say is that I have learnd a lesson I will never leave my partner.

Do you mean that you got out of the water followed by the DM AND a guy and his wife?

Do you mean to say that this guy notified the DM during the dive that the DM's buddy was missing?

Is the Instructor someone who was just along on the dive or was leading the dive?

Who is Mr. Wood? Is that the instructor?

After this lady disappears down the wall and is lost the rest of the group goes on to do the James Bond wreck?

I'm just trying to follow what you are saying.

[Tricia]

Hello I was there the dive started out as any other a great place to dive being one of the first in the water I was also the first out follow by the DM or a guy and his wife who told me that the DM and her partner had got split , he brought this to her attention wile still on the dive ,she gets out of her gear goes to the bow of the boat and sits down with her back to us ,an starts texting someone. 6 to 8 minutes later the Instructor learns that we are missing a diver , he the goes to the DM on the bow and comes back quickly regears up an is back in the water from the time he got on the boat in less than 6 minutes ,searches for about 35 minutes with another diver and 3 others on top with snorkels, We had to pull anchor to pick up the instructor and the other diver some 200 to 300 yards away. After that a smaller dive boat cames in with 2 more divers on it in which Mr. Wood and his friend then got on that boat and we left ,we get stopped again by another dive boat and the DM gets on it an they make there way in. We dive the James Bond Wreck then we go in. All I can say is that I have learnd a lesson I will never leave my partner.


MEG DIVER - could you please clarify? Are you saying you were on the boat with the diver who was lost? Because then you say you "dove the James Bond Wreck". Do you mean you guys (including the DM) did another dive after this happened? Or did you get on another boat? Sorry, but your post is confusing.

Thanks!
Trish

[MEG DIVER]

When the DM got out the Instructor was still diving with the rest of the group,he got on 6 to 8 minutes behine her, thats when he learn we were missing a diver, he then gears back up an returns to the water,at this point I dont think that MRS.WOOD would have had any air left ,being on this dive has made me lose alot of sleep there is still a key missing .

If anyone sees this that was on this boat that day with me contack me trought this therad

[MEG DIVER]

the DM got on a diffent boat, an that baot went in ,we then went to a James Bond Dive site

[MEG DIVER]

1. Mrs. Wood is the lost diver ,
2. yes a diver notified the divemaster wile still diving that she had lost her partner
3. the Instructor a guy from UK that was leading the dive
4. after we had look for Mrs.Wood for over an hour another boat from SC shows up with more divers empolyed by the SC dive shop at that point MR.Wood and his friend get in that boat we leave they stay they have now taken over the search
5. we then head to a james bond dive site ,juse befor getting there we met another boat the DM from our boat get on that boat and heads in to the dive center
6. yes we then made another dive on a james bond site

[stevejaz]

Meg, can you please answer a few questions about that day.

1. Where you on the resort diver/snorkle boat?

2. If not was this the novice diver boat or the more advanced diver boat?

3. Was Mr. Wood diving as well?

4. Was the missing diver noted prior to everyone signing they were back on the boat or when was it discovered?

5. Was the DM that was supposed to have been hired to dive with the missing diver, a personal DM or the group DM?

6. Was this a certified diver? If so, had she not dove in 3 years and thus was required to do a refresher or hire a DM?

Thanks, and my sympathies to you and those involved as I'm sure this was clearly a traggic/tramatic experience.

Steve

[MEG DIVER]

yes i was on the boat with the diver that was lost ,road to the dive center with them as well
we did another dive with the Instructor at another site

[MEG DIVER]

1. I was on the same boat with MRS.WOOD we all enter the water at the time
2. I would say that most of the divers on the boat were Advance or better
3. MR. WOOD was diving with us
4. another diver and hie wife useing hand signs single the DM that her partner was missing
the Instructor found out when he got on the boat
5. the DM was hired to dive with Mrs.Wood
6. I know nouthing of her diving background

[dumpsterDiver]

It is hard to understand, but.. the female DM who was hired to watch Mrs. Wood (and her husband) was not watching Mrs. Wood when she disappeared and was imformed of the separation via hand signals from someone else during the dive??? Is that true?

Was there actually a "confrontation" between Mrs. Wood and the hired DM during the dive where the DM tried to get Mrs. wood to ascend but she became combative at a depth of 100 feet, in mid-water, over the edge of the wall? Or is that not really what happened?

From what I hear now, it sounds like Mrs. Wood just slipped away from the group and presumably sunk down the wall before anyone noticed or was able to take any decisive action?

What's the story about the actual dive?

[MEG DIVER]

The DM was only hird to dive with MRS.Wood / Mr. Wood was diveing with a friend / yes the DM was informed by via hand signals by another diver and his wife that her partner was gone / confrontation I dident see it and dont know that it happen / not totaly what I think but almost

[pilot fish]

Doesn't that denote a degree of responsibility?:confused:



The DM was only hird to dive with MRS.Wood / Mr. Wood was diveing with a friend / yes the DM was informed by via hand signals by another diver and his wife that her partner was gone / confrontation I dident see it and dont know that it happen / not totaly what I think but almost

[dumpsterDiver]

....
From what I hear now, it sounds like Mrs. Wood just slipped away from the group and presumably sunk down the wall before anyone noticed or was able to take any decisive action?

?

Meg's answer: not totaly what I think but almost

Thanks very much! So what would you add or delete to make the story sound like what you think happened?

[stevejaz]

This seems a bit odd, DM hired to dive with Mrs. Wood, is seperated from Mrs. Wood, surfaces, and heads to front of boat without notifying anyone?

Either way, as I previously stated, I had both good and bad experiences with SC, but there seems to be a lot of pieces missing here and contradictions to draw any type of hypothosis...it'll be interesting to hear what really happened, if we ever find out.:depressed:

[george w]

Unless I am reading this all wrong, the husband went on another boat and did the james bond dive???? If my wife went missing I would not be doing another dive while the search is going on. This makes no sence to me.

[MEG DIVER]

what i think happen Mrs Wood got in trouble the DM could not over come her if she tryed and just left her , if someone else saw this why dident they try to help at that point , i dont belive anyone seen Mrs. Wood pushing the DM away,I think this is a bad diving err on part of the DM

[MEG DIVER]

no MR. Wood did not dive anyother dives ,he stayed with another serch boat that was lookind for his wife

[MEG DIVER]

all i can say is, I was there but the DM and Mrs. Wood were 50 feet or so behine the lead that is were my partner an myself was following the Instructor ,if she had been up frount she would still be with us

[diver 85]

MEG DIVER states---" All I can say is that I have learnd a lesson I will never leave my partner.".........that or be prepared to be a solo diver @ any time.....

Again sorry for the loss, hopefully lessons WILL be learned from this...

[Cave Diver]

If in a rescue situation, a diver inflates their BC and looses grip of the victim, the recuer needs to simply roll over, exhale, flare out and dump air from BC. There is no need to be 30 lbs bouyant to bring a dive up, you only need enough lift to get the two of you moving at a reasonable and safe pace.

Has the way this is being taught changed?

When I took rescue (admittedly many years ago now) we were taught to inflate the vitims BC and use it for bouyancy while maintaining contact with them. We only used our BC to contol inflation if theirs was inoperative for some reason.

[dumpsterDiver]

Has the way this is being taught changed?

When I took rescue (admittedly many years ago now) we were taught to inflate the vitims BC and use it for bouyancy while maintaining contact with them. We only used our BC to contol inflation if theirs was inoperative for some reason.

This is what I would do in a a last ditch effort, when say the victim is combative and falling down the wall. Get behind them, grab tank valve, establish positive bouyancy and also kick if that is required. The question was raised that putting excess air in the rescuer's BC would be extemely hazardous if the heavy victim got seperated from the rescuer. This thread is all over the place, but it is getting crazier by the minute.

[RichnLenny]

what is going on with this thread? its all over the shop! Meg I cant understand your posts at all! Seems something very fishy amongst all this like a piece of the story missing it just doesnt add up!

[AlaskaDiver]

I too am having a difficult time following the cryptic postings and really would like to understand the situation better.

[widget]

what i think happen Mrs Wood got in trouble the DM could not over come her if she tryed and just left her , if someone else saw this why dident they try to help at that point , i dont belive anyone seen Mrs. Wood pushing the DM away,I think this is a bad diving err on part of the DM

I dont know, but this post says it all to me.

The way I read the post from Meg Diver, (an on site witness), is Mrs Woods got into trouble, the DM attempted to assist, but for whatever reason decided to cease any rescue attempt and left her.

It appears none of the other divers on the trip attempted to help the DM or Mrs Woods.

Meg Diver is not of the opinion Mrs Woods pushed the DM away, and the fatality was due to DM error.

That said, I make no opinion on the accident, however from what I have read there appears to be a common thread running through all of them - the DM was unable to assist or gain control of the diver - to me, thats concerning.

[DennisS]

what i think happen Mrs Wood got in trouble the DM could not over come her if she tryed and just left her , if someone else saw this why dident they try to help at that point , i dont belive anyone seen Mrs. Wood pushing the DM away,I think this is a bad diving err on part of the DM

Did the victim push the DM away, the first post says she did? The first post says she was seen pushing the DM away. Who was it that supposedly saw this.

[TheScubaBOB]

Has the way this is being taught changed?

When I took rescue (admittedly many years ago now) we were taught to inflate the vitims BC and use it for bouyancy while maintaining contact with them. We only used our BC to contol inflation if theirs was inoperative for some reason.

I just completed PADI Rescue Diver last weekend...

I was taught to make a choice based on my assement of the situation, options are:

1) Manage both BCs by switching between them (IMHO, too complex expecially when a simplier option exists that woks well)

2) Manage my BC until we surface and then inflate theirs (Requires I dump their air and then when we get to surface I need to inflate them)

3) Manage Victim's BC --> My 1st choice because I can dump my BC and get us both to the surface using theirs (unless victim is out of air then I'll have to use mine) and since I already have hand on their inflater they get buoyant first then I inflate my BC. This approach also protects me if they regain conciousness and fight/push me off as I won't be excessivly buoyant.

[BluWatDvr]

DennisS,

I agree you as to the way you understand it.The op needs to tell more about HIS report.How he got it ? Was he the witness ? If not.Who Was.He should tell more.I joined this site today because Meg Diver Is a friend and dive buddy of mine.I will be meeting with him this evening to sit down and get him to write a better depiction of what he saw happen on this dive.I am as confused as everyone else at this point.Meg diver has a hard time talking on the phone.He can not hear as good as most of us because of double hearing aids.

[DennisS]

Two people who were there can't agree on the same story,(not uncommon) and a dozen pages of people explaining their view of what really happened and how they would have saved her.

[scubafanatic]

what is going on with this thread? its all over the shop! Meg I cant understand your posts at all! Seems something very fishy amongst all this like a piece of the story missing it just doesnt add up!

..I quite agree with you RichnLenny....this 'Meg Diver' person is completely incoherent, and I'm now ignoring his/her observations/comments....maybe he/she means well, but it's not worth my effort to decypher gibberish !

[mrlipis]

Wow, has this thread gone WACKY. I'm waiting for Rod Serling to make the next post.

[stevejaz]

..I quite agree with you RichnLenny....this 'Meg Diver' person is completely incoherent, and I'm now ignoring his/her observations/comments....maybe he/she means well, but it's not worth my effort to decypher gibberish !

I think this was uncalled for...:no:

[MEG DIVER]

Sorry,but has this ever happened to any of you ?

[stevejaz]

I think most of us understand this would be very difficult. I know personally when reflecting on a bad situation and talking about it often brings back other pieces that I may have initially omitted.

No worries, you're doing your best and if we weren't all curious as to what happened so that we may gleen something from this, we wouldn't be reading!

My best to you and thanks for the effort.

Steve

[CheddarChick]

Don't let them bother you Megdiver. Not everyone in the world speaks or writes perfect english.....

[Thalassamania]

I just completed PADI Rescue Diver last weekend...

I was taught to make a choice based on my assement of the situation, options are:

1) Manage both BCs by switching between them (IMHO, too complex expecially when a simplier option exists that woks well)I concur.

2) Manage my BC until we surface and then inflate theirs (Requires I dump their air and then when we get to surface I need to inflate them)
This is my choice, especially if you've practiced with the air siphon (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4455613-post828.html)technique I outlined in the other DM failure thread.

3) Manage Victim's BC --> My 1st choice because I can dump my BC and get us both to the surface using theirs (unless victim is out of air then I'll have to use mine) and since I already have hand on their inflater they get buoyant first then I inflate my BC. This approach also protects me if they regain conciousness and fight/push me off as I won't be excessivly buoyant.Too complex, you need to get too close, you'll have to use both hand's, one to maintain control of the victim and one to operate the victim's BC, as you ascend your going to have to go back to your's at least one and them regain the victim's BC controls that will be flopping about and which you are likely unfamilar with.
I think this was uncalled for...:no:I agree.

Sorry,but has this ever happened to any of you ?We know that it is hard, just do the best that you can.

[MEG DIVER]

Scubafanatic,RichnLenny,

Hang in here for a minute,I need your help.Heres what I saw happen on the dive.I will keep this as short and as factful as my memory will serve.

When I speak of Mrs Wood, shes the missing diver. Mr Wood is her husband. There is another couple I will speak of also. I will refer to them as "Another couple".




We all got our briefing,the plan was that we would dive out to the edge of the wall. Comfortable (experienced) divers and their dive buddy could dive past the edge or drop off. Mrs.Wood was to dive with her assigned DM.

The group descended to the bottom. At this point we were ALL moving along the bottom toward the wall.At this point I didnt know who was who except who my partner was and the instructor. The instructor was leading. The total distance from were we touched the bottom to the edge of the ledge was about 100 feet. The depth at this time, about 72 feet. The group went out to the edge of the ledge and turned right and followed the edge 100 to 200 feet and turned toward the boat and started a slow shallow incline ascent. I was the first one on the line.(stern line with a weight to do a safety stop at). Another couple was hanging not on the line but near me at the stop. I got out,and on the boat. I was removing my gear and another couple and the DM getting on the boat. I got out of my gear and was walking over to another couple and asked how they liked the dive. The guy from the other couple was shaking his head and told me the DM lost her partner. He turned to the DM and asked where her partner was. The DM walked to the bow alone and sat down with her back to the cabin and stared texting a message.(she was very upset and wipping her eyes.) About 5 minutes or so later the Instructor and the group returned on board. The man from another couple told the instructor that the DM was missing her partner. The instrutor rushed to the bow and had a very brief talk with the DM. The instrutor then came to the dive deck and geared back up. Him and a diver entered the water to search for Mrs.Wood. There were 4 other divers snorkeling and searching. After what seemed like thirty minutes or more we pulled anchor and picked up the instructor and other diver. As they were boarding our boat another boat from SC arrived with two more search divers. Mr. Wood and his friend then boarded that boat that was going to search again.

We left the area and meet another boat from SC and the DM boarded this boat and they went in,to the Dive center. The rest of us went and did a dive on the James Bond site and went in. I was not questioned by anyone. This is all I can tell you about what happened. I have tried to give the best account I can with facts and not blame or theories. It leaves as big of a question mark in my mind as it does everyone elses.

[DandyDon]

When the DM got out the Instructor was still diving with the rest of the group,he got on 6 to 8 minutes behine her, thats when he learn we were missing a diver, he then gears back up an returns to the water,at this point I dont think that MRS.WOOD would have had any air left ,being on this dive has made me lose alot of sleep there is still a key missing .

If anyone sees this that was on this boat that day with me contack me trought this therad
Meg, I guess maybe you're not accustomed to communicating on a message board like this. You seem to be having some difficulities conveying your thoughts; please accept our thanks for coming on to give us the info you can give as well as we're are trying to understand but struggling a bit here - yet we don't mean to be rough on you. We appreciate your patience with our desires to know more, as well as you explaining as best you can.

I can understand why you're bothered but this awful loss, but please do accept that it's nothing for you to feel at all responsible about. Sad that you had to witness, and the feelings of helplessness are understandable, but that's about it. Really, talking it over is generally helpful; if you feel pressured on this thread, you are welcome to talk about your feelings on another thread, ok?

I am curious what you meant by "...there is still a key missing."

Another question please: When the DM boarded the boat, turned away and started texting, was they any other crew members on the boat? Perhaps the texting was an alert, but I would think a radio alert should have been sounded then. :confused:
Doesn't that denote a degree of responsibility?:confused:
A degree?! The DM was hired to dive as Mrs. Woods personal buddy. The DM is welcome to post here too, but it sounds like a big professional failure to me. If the DM was hired to dive as Mrs.W's buddy, the DM should have been right with Mrs.W, watching closely, etc - not have to have someone else point out that Mrs.W was going down, and continued to try to assist Mrs.W further than just 100 ft!
Has the way this is being taught changed?

When I took rescue (admittedly many years ago now) we were taught to inflate the vitims BC and use it for bouyancy while maintaining contact with them. We only used our BC to contol inflation if theirs was inoperative for some reason.
Yeah, or you can't get to theirs. If there is a struggle as we think we have read about earlier here, from narcosis or whatever - you do your best.

[DandyDon]

I am currently on vacation in the Bahamas and only joined this site after reading the posts. I am the primary witness to the dive incident involving Mrs Wood. I will post my account of what happened once I get back to NY and once the Forensic Dive Investigation team has had a chance to talk with all the people involved. I would like to say that prior to talking with the Dive Investigator I had similar views to the posts above. However what we are all missing is the DM's account of what happened. After talking with both the DM and the FDI I now have a clearer understanding of what transpired that morning.
Would you like to post more now...?

[JimLap]

Thanks MegDiver. I know that this is a very stressful time for you. Having made use of such things in the past if you are having real difficulties with this situation it may be beneficial to speak with someone who deals in post traumatic stress. While many of us can speak with you here and via PM's it is not the same thing and unless one of us is a psychologist or therapist we cannot give you the same degree of expertise in dealing with this. I think I speak for more than myself when I say that we appreciate your effort.

I am somewhat dismayed as well by the DM's actions. Especially in that she was hired to specifically be the missing diver's buddy. This is, on the surface of it, a negligent act in that she not only got seperated but made no effort to notify someone as soon as she got on board. I don't know what the operators policy is for accidents but to not raise a general alarm is stupid at the least. Even if there were new divers on the boat the Dm is trained, or should be, to make use of all resources available. Screw shop policy. If I have a missing diver I may not send new OW divers down to look for a victim but I will have them looking for bubbles or in snorkel gear with no weights to insure they stay on the surface to assist in locating the diver. I would also not be texting anyone but on the radio balling out a general distress call to all boats in the area.

If a shop would fire me for alarming guests in this manner I'd give em the one finger salute before punching the owner in the face on the way out. That the DM did not raise a general alarm is reason enough for me to see their card pulled at the least. Maybe the victim did push her away or get beyond her limit for rescue. That is no excuse to not make every effort to get as much help in the area as soon as possible. Could she have been in shock as well? Possibly, but you would still expect her to get back on the boat and get rescue efforts in motion if she was nay kind of professional. Except maybe that nutball who was the subject of a thread several weeks ago. She seemed like the type who would be expected to not act in a rational way.

I also do not understand the op taking you to another site to dive. They should have put you all back on shore and used the boat with experienced divers for the search effort. Bonehead move there as well. I'd like to ask the idiot who made that call what their rationale was.

In any case please keep us informed as best you can on this. And do not hesitate to get assistance with this should it prove necessary. Asking for help in this situation is a sign that you are a responsible person who recognizes their limitations and that you are someone I'd be happy to dive with. PM if you feel like it. Jim

[vladimir]

At the risk of belaboring the point, we have in this thread three people with first-hand knowledge of the incident (danclem, onlyhalcyon, meg diver); that is more first-hand information than we get in the overwhelming majority of the incidents posted here. Nevertheless, we are far from the certainty that many posters here crave regarding the facts. Hopefully onlyhalcyon will clear things up when he posts again, but whether he does or not, this thread should make it apparent that we will always be dealing with a great deal of uncertainty regarding the circumstances of incidents posted here. Consequently, the discussion will always be somewhat speculative. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, as long as everybody recognizes and acknowledges it.

[DandyDon]

I also do not understand the op taking you to another site to dive. They should have put you all back on shore and used the boat with experienced divers for the search effort. Bonehead move there as well. I'd like to ask the idiot who made that call what their rationale was.
Yeah, that one bothered me. I thot it was cavalier at least, and the chances of another injury great increased. Searching for the diver? Boy, I don't know? I guess so, but from the Instructor's report, didn't seem like much to search for by then.

[promocop]

who was the DM texting? ugh!

[diver 85]

what is going on with this thread? its all over the shop! Meg I cant understand your posts at all! Seems something very fishy amongst all this like a piece of the story missing it just doesnt add up!


yea, aren't they a hoot-------like reading Chinese upside down, @ times.....

[scubafanatic]

...thanks for the 'clarification' Meg Diver ! I can imagine that was a very upsetting episode to experience.....as has already been noted, for once we appear not only to have on Scubaboard 3 immediate witnesses, but 3 people who witnessed an accident and all thought to even post on Scubaboard....small world ! ...that in itself has to be some sort of record for 'us' on Scubaboard...maybe for a change we'll actually get a reasonably accurate accident report, and within a reasonable timeframe.

[DocIndyDiver]

I've dove with SC a couple of years ago. I wasn't very impressed. It seemed like a DM/Instructor factory. Was this female DM fully certified or in training?

[Dantheengineer]

I've dove with SC a couple of years ago. I wasn't very impressed. It seemed like a DM/Instructor factory. Was this female DM fully certified or in training?

Can you please explain further? I know they dont qualify their own instructors and that they dont much care to even qualify DM's.
I had a real job convincing Alvin the dock manager to sanction my own course through most of last year.
Since then a "batch" of DM's has gone through training there. Under a PADI pro who's tutorledge is absolutely beyond reproach. (not wanting to post names, so i shan't. A great many of you would recognize her tho!).

Almost all of the dive pro's there are pretty much hand picked from around the world so will have been certed elsewhere and have prior experience as a prerequisite of employment. Certainly this is, i believe, the case in this instance.

And yes the DM in question is fully qual'd.

As far as the boat not remaining with the search goes, the dock is five minutes away, there would have been at least three or more of the companies boats that could have supported a S&R Op. It doesn't sound to me like a recovery was expected.
The instructor (it's generally agreed in and out of the thread) descended to 170' odd, with 100' ish Viz and a bubble stream visibly beneath him he'd have been placing himself in harms way to go deeper, may be get eyes on and then be left with a difficult decision to attempt recovery over 1.6ppO2.
There's no trimix on New Providence and rebreather technology is only in private use. A reasonable S&R operation would involve importing someone like Brian Kakuk of underground bahamas fame from Abacco. This would take a good 12hrs even if you chartered a plane. I dont believe even the nearby Defence force base would be able to supply any assistance at these depths. (i could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time......)
My simple point is once the initial rush to assist was past......there was no longer a rush.
Who was she texting? well if it was me i'd prolly be looking for some sort of sympathetic human contact. Through my own negligence or not, i have after all just watched someone die and i expect i'm suffering from shock too!

Meg i'm so sorry for your loss thanks for having the courage to post here and talk with us.

[MEG DIVER]

Thanks to each of you I only wish I knew more

[Thalassamania]

And yes the DM in question is fully qual'd.

From what I've read so far, certified ... perhaps; qualified ... doubtful.

As far as the boat not remaining with the search goes, the dock is five minutes away, there would have been at least three or more of the companies boats that could have supported a S&R Op. It doesn't sound to me like a recovery was expected.

Once its gone that far there's no rush.

The instructor (it's generally agreed in and out of the thread) descended to 170' odd, with 100' ish Viz and a bubble stream visibly beneath him he'd have been placing himself in harms way to go deeper, may be get eyes on and then be left with a difficult decision to attempt recovery over 1.6ppO2.

1.6 for a short period of time is not a big deal.

There's no trimix on New Providence and rebreather technology is only in private use. A reasonable S&R operation would involve importing someone like Brian Kakuk of underground bahamas fame from Abacco. This would take a good 12hrs even if you chartered a plane. I dont believe even the nearby Defence force base would be able to supply any assistance at these depths. (i could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time......)
My simple point is once the initial rush to assist was past......there was no longer a rush. It's just a recovery, no sense getting anyone hurt over that.

You're right it's not rush at that point. The real question though is what kind of CF created the situation in the first place?

[UnderwaterBumbleBee]

I hate reading this thread, just makes me feel sick. A year and a half ago I was on a liveaboard when someone went missing and never returned during a night dive we were on. It's such a helpless feeling. This week we leave for our 2nd liveaboard in the Bahamas of all places, this post is a sad reminder of that trip. Meg's account of the divemaster is perplexing and it was a very poor decision to take them on a second dive following this incident. Would like to hear if/when ANY of the divers noticed she went missing during the dive, not just on the boat. Hope we learn more about the details.

[ZenDiver.3D]

Not to hijack the thread, but I was reading a book about diving accidents the other day, and it was saying how dive professionals can go for years without seeing an accident, and so when the time comes their skills are often very rusty and they can get flustered (generalising here, of course).

I remember thinking to myself, if I am an insurance underwriter for a dive company, I think I want to write into their contract that they take all staff out "on maneuvres" at least once a year to practice rescue drills and really have the DMs put through their paces. When the time comes, somebody's life (lives?) are on the line, so let's prepare like that is what is at stake.

I wonder if many dive ops do things like that? It would be hard given the shoe-string budget that many operations are forced to run on.

We do. Once a month, the instructors, DM,s and any Rescue divers on board our boats are invited to take part in a rescue scenario.
We run it with the customers and tell them what is happening, We tell them that they may one day be asked to look or move gear in a real life rescue and this is good for them They are always thrilled to take part as spotters and such, as they would be instructed to do in a real situation. They think it's cool treat and my people get a monthly practice.

To make our PADI Rescue class more fun, my LDS conducts bi-annual Rescue Days, where all Rescue students, DMCs, DMs, and Instructors head to a remote beach to run scenarios (remote so that passers-by don't call 911 when they see us dragging someone out of the water). It ends up being a good get-together and brushes everyone up on basic rescue skills. It may not be as thorough as instructor-level risk management procedures, but the Rescue class is the foundation for those skills.

Good job. It really keeps people thinking and is good for all.

And if you don't practice, it means that you lack that ability to react in the split second that you may have to affect a rescue.

[deepstops]

The real question though is what kind of CF created the situation in the first place?

You're free to keep blaming the operation (you're rather good at it) but if it was my intent to harm myself by going over that wall into the abyss, I'm pretty sure there's no single person who would be able stop me.

[Riger]

... if it was my intent to harm myself by going over that wall into the abyss, I'm pretty sure there's no single person who would be able stop me.

......... however, would you employ a Private DM to dive with you for your "big event" and if so, what would the purpose be other than to provide a smoke-screen for insurance claims?

Best Regards
Richard

[deepstops]

......... however, would you employ a Private DM to dive with you for your "big event" and if so, what would the purpose be other than to provide a smoke-screen for insurance claims?

Best Regards
Richard

Bingo, we have a winner.

[pilot fish]

:confused: oops, wrong thread. Duhhhhhhhhhhhh

Thanks

[Riger]

:confused: oops, wrong thread. Duhhhhhhhhhhhh

Thanks

:confused:

[DocIndyDiver]

That was my first thought but, I didnt want to go there. Fighting the DM, narced or suicide? How many of us post here say "at least they died doing what they loved"

[ScubaSteve]

Something to do with the DM does not add up (or to do with MEG's accounting for facts).

[cappyjon431]

That was my first thought but, I didnt want to go there. Fighting the DM, narced or suicide? How many of us post here say "at least they died doing what they loved"

Very early in the thread I "went there" based on a past experience. I was jumped on for "wild speculation," but in my mind I still believe it to be a very real possibility. The only part that doesn't measure up is hiring a personal DM, which would decrease the liklihood of a successful attempt.

[mrlipis]

Do we know the experience level of the Woods? It would seem to me that it was not very extensive if they are going to hire a DM for Her and He is going to buddy up with someone else. Very odd.

Meg, just curious if you were questioned by authorities and what kind of questions they asked you.
I am sorry you are having to deal with such a terrible experience.

[ItsBruce]

......... however, would you employ a Private DM to dive with you for your "big event" and if so, what would the purpose be other than to provide a smoke-screen for insurance claims?

Best Regards
Richard

Well, actually, if that was my plan, yes. I would not involve my family or regular dive buddy.

And, having dealt with insurance, as I have, my thought is that absent something truly remarkable in the medical records, a claim under such circumstances is essentially iron-clad.

This is not to imply that this is in any way, shape or form, what happened. (But, someone posed the question.)

[MEG DIVER]

No i was not questioned by anyone

[Riger]

Meg Diver, how old do you estimate Mrs Woods to be? Do you know what her experience level was ?

Best Regards
Richard

[diver 85]

Would you like to post more now...?

looks like he/she is still in transit........

[MEG DIVER]

She looked to be 47 to 52 I dnot know her experience level was , I will be back on later tonight

[mkutyna]

You're free to keep blaming the operation (you're rather good at it) but if it was my intent to harm myself by going over that wall into the abyss, I'm pretty sure there's no single person who would be able stop me.

That's a pretty sick and twisted thing to do to the DM. They were hired to protect you and you go and do something like that. I can't imagine the mental anguish that the DM would be going through thinking that it's their fault that you died when you had no intention of coming back from the dive.

[Cave Diver]

That's a pretty sick and twisted thing to do to the DM. They were hired to protect you and you go and do something like that. I can't imagine the mental anguish that the DM would be going through thinking that it's their fault that you died when you had no intention of coming back from the dive.

IF this turns out to be an accurate scenario and someone is thinking of ending their own life and doing so in front of their spouse, I doubt they gave much consideration to the emotions of a DM that they didnt know.

[DandyDon]

Meg Diver, how old do you estimate Mrs Woods to be? Do you know what her experience level was ?
Public records of the city where she'd worked show her retirement notice and the news stories all say she was 68 - altho those could possible be based on the same initial story that could have included a typo.

I keep wondering about a DM who was hired to dive as buddy for Ms. Wood (no S at end of name) but didn't watch her closely enough that the DM has to have someone point her to her buddy.

With no reasons known to suggest self harm, I still see narcosis as most likely cause.

[Dantheengineer]

The lads and lasses around the dock have been disseminating this incident in a similar fashion to ourselves. Some points of discrepancy have arisen between the "general understanding" of the occurrence. Perhaps Meg could clarify or comment? The following is my reiteration of little more than hearsay. It is however, the closest we'll probably get to the facts of the incident. (unless Onlyhalcyon comes back to us, we hope he will).
If i've misinterpreted in anyway Meg or Halcyon, please do correct me.......(i'm damned certain those who are reading but wont/cant post'll let me have it RIGHT in the neck for getting it wrong!)

The dive boat (White Bungie) had three Instructor certified divers aboard. 1. Was the Dive leader. 2. Had an AOW course and was tutoring the deep dive segment. 3. Was hired in the role of private DM. Also aboard was the Captain (For information, who i'm told also holds PADI DM status). There was no Fin Photo photographers aboard. All of whom are, also, of instructor status.

About 18-20 mins into the dive, instructor 3, who is at an approximate depth of 60', sees Mrs. Wood at the considerably lower depth of 80'. She taps on her tanks and upon achieving Mrs Wood's attention signals her to ascend to her own depth. She is ignored. After further attempts to attract Mrs Wood's attention fail, the instructor descends and again communicates the need to ascend. At this stage Mrs. Wood proceeds to physically push instructor 3. away. Left with little choice but to try to over power Mrs. Woods, 3. starts to inflate her BCD. In response, Mrs. Wood starts to vent air from the BC via the shoulder dump valve. This altercation continues to an approximate depth of 140' at which point 3. decides to break contact due to the obvious ineffectiveness of her input and safety concerns at the depth being in excess of RDP's. With body language exhibiting anger and aggression, Mrs Wood descents out of sight, still dumping air from the shoulder valve as she goes.

Instructor 2. is returning from his deep dive and is at an approximate depth of 70' when instructor 3. approaches him and communicates the loss of her charge. Instructor 2. descends to, in excess of, 170' where he can still see a bubble trail from beneath him. He decides the danger is too great to descent and investigate further.
(Meg particularly, may remember instructor 2. as he, also, has hearing difficulties and uses two hearing aids)

Upon returning to the dive boat, the captain is alerted to the incident and radio's South Ocean base. Assistance is summarily dispatched.

Upon return to the craft, instructor 1. is informed of the situation, switches his tank from EANx to air and returns to the water.


Now i know the above is far short of admissible anywhere but this, the people's court. I dont work for or have any real ties to the operation other than it's an excellent place to dive. I know most of the staff very well and am able to say that those involved are of the highest caliber. I would also point out that the client to "report worthy" incident ratio is negligible. Do please, bear in mind that the shear number and quality of diver that comes through there is, generally, large and poor respectively. (I have, myself, witnessed some absolute pearls!)

Like DandyDon, i hesitate to comment on the likelihood of suicide, mostly for reasons of propriety. Most of what i'm hearing/reading indicates that whether premeditated or of the moment and narc'd, this poor lady did, consciously resist advice, physical assistance and professional guidance and descend below her capability. This, intentionally or not resulted in her tragic death.

Assuming the accuracy of the above, short of PADI (or other agencies) putting together a sub aqua self-defense, close combat and client mental health specialty (i shouldn't joke..$$$$$$??) i cant see what else instructor 3. could have reasonably done.
In the event that it's decided that she should have been able to overpower Mrs. Woods, i dont see that she is either qualified or certified (Thall). I'm fairly certain i'm not.

The DM (Instructor 3.) was back in the water for the first time following the incident yesterday. She is said to be very distraught and recovering from shock slowly, precisely as one would expect of any reasonable human reaction to such a traumatic occurrence.

[promocop]

Finally, a report worthy of this tragic accident. Thank you

[Riger]

Very Interesting and definitely a different perspective now that the pieces are coming together.

If the DM was on EAN32 (assumption) then 140' (42m) is beyond the contingency PPO2 (1.6) and in the range of "not going there!" in my mind.

Questions for the qualified DM's and Instructors here:

1. Is there ever any training to exceed the accepted PPO2 limits (1.6) whilst doing DM or Instructor training? and

2. Assuming a relatively accurate description of events, is the depth at which the DM "Bailed" acceptable for anyone who has never been deeper than 1.6?

Thanks in advance
Richard

[DandyDon]

If the DM was on EAN32 (assumption) then 140' (42m) is beyond the contingency PPO2 (1.6) and in the range of "not going there!" in my mind.Where did you get that idea...?

[mrlipis]

No i was not questioned by anyone

This story is getting more bizarre by the moment. No disrespect to Meg, but there a couple of very troubling things here besides the accident (if that's what it was).
1. The fact that the dive operation continued to complete another dive and had willing participants.

2. Authorities, including the dive shop, did not investigate or question any of the other divers on the boat. I may be making an assumption that the other divers were not questioned but according to Meg, he was not questioned and I can only assume none of the others were either. And then these patrons leave the country without as much as a statement. Hard to get the facts without asking questions.

[Riger]

Where did you get that idea...?

Don,

You are correct, it was an assumption on my behalf. This was based on the fact that the other staff member was using EANx.

I have highlighted the "assumption" part in the text.

Best Regards
Richard

[Riger]

Dantheengineer;

Do you know if DM (Instructor 3) and/or Ms Wood were on air or EANx?

Best Regards
Richard

[Cave Diver]

3. Was hired in the role of private DM. Also aboard was the Captain (For information, who i'm told also holds PADI DM status).

About 18-20 mins into the dive, instructor 3, who is at an approximate depth of 60', sees Mrs. Wood at the considerably lower depth of 80'.

My first question would center on how someone in the care of a private DM ended up 20' below her to begin with.

[Riger]

My first question would center on how someone in the care of a private DM ended up 20' below her to begin with.

I thought about that too. I have never been tasked as an underwater caretaker, my question to the professionals; "Is it unreasonable that a DM caring for a diver looks away from their charge long enough (say 30 seconds?) for them to get 7m below you?"

Best Regards
Richard

[Web Monkey]

on signals her to ascend to her own depth. She is ignored. After further attempts to attract Mrs Wood's attention fail, the instructor descends and again communicates the need to ascend. At this stage Mrs. Wood proceeds to physically push instructor 3. away.

That would have been a great time to dich the victim's weights, wave goodbye and follow the ascent to the surface.

Terry

[widget]

About 18-20 mins into the dive, instructor 3, who is at an approximate depth of 60', sees Mrs. Wood at the considerably lower depth of 80'. She taps on her tanks and upon achieving Mrs Wood's attention signals her to ascend to her own depth. She is ignored. After further attempts to attract Mrs Wood's attention fail, the instructor descends and again communicates the need to ascend. At this stage Mrs. Wood proceeds to physically push instructor 3. away. Left with little choice but to try to over power Mrs. Woods, 3. starts to inflate her BCD. In response, Mrs. Wood starts to vent air from the BC via the shoulder dump valve. This altercation continues to an approximate depth of 140' at which point 3. decides to break contact due to the obvious ineffectiveness of her input and safety concerns at the depth being in excess of RDP's. With body language exhibiting anger and aggression, Mrs Wood descents out of sight, still dumping air from the shoulder valve as she goes..

Now, you see, to me this report appears "padded" - I talk from over 30 years in the commercial dive business where I have seen my fair share of "incidents", and honestly, I have a few issues with some of the comments which seem to me, highly unlikely responses from a diver suffering from narcosis.

Nowhere in any post do we read the diver was struggeling or under extreme stress, actually from all reports I read here nowhere is it reported she was in any way out of control, (this is easy to see in any diver) hense we can assume narcosis is certainly a factor.

Now, in my opinion, a diver suffering high levels of stress will / may fight off assistance, however not a diver suffering only the effects of narcosis - hense if we assume the diver was suffering narcosis I think its highly unlikely they would (a) physically push assistance away (b) have the presence of mind to vent the BC continually - this "venting" is in my opinion not a normal reaction for any diver, certainly not one suffering from narcosis or even stress.

The part about body language and continual venting etc, - well, I have to ask, what was the aggressive body language? - a diver suffering narcosis is very unlikely to exhibit aggression / anger - again its not a natural reaction - a diver stressed beyond control yes, but then they would not have full control of the equipment (continued venting) as she appeared to have.

I think the rest of the report makes sense.

Please, Dantheengineer, understand, I mean no offence, the parts I outline simply dont gel in my water logged brain, I assume you just recalled it as you heard it, thats fine and I appreciate it, however in my humble opinion the story is getting somewhat embellished as it gos along.

[mrlipis]

My first question would center on how someone in the care of a private DM ended up 20' below her to begin with.

I was thinking the same thing but, if intentional, I can see how that could happen. Short of NEVER taking ones eyes off this diver, it could happen pretty quick.

[Web Monkey]

I thought about that too. I have never been tasked as an underwater caretaker, my question to the professionals; "Is it unreasonable that a DM caring for a diver looks away from their charge long enough (say 30 seconds?) for them to get 7m below you?"

Yes it is unreasonable. Someone who is paying for a personal DM is implicitly indicating that they are not qualified to dive without a highly qualified buddy.

In this case, the buddy should never be much farther away than grabbing distance, and the customer should never be out of sight.

Terry

[Cave Diver]

I was thinking the same thing but, if intentional, I can see how that could happen. Short of NEVER taking ones eyes off this diver, it could happen pretty quick.

If it was intentional, then that lends credibility to the diver ignoring/resisting the DM's attempt to get them to ascend.

If it was unintentional descent, it would seem to indicate inattentiveness or negligence on part of the DM.

[MarkUK]

That would have been a great time to dich the victim's weights, wave goodbye and follow the ascent to the surface.

Terry

And then get sued by the victim's family if she dies from a lung over-expansion injury on her rapid trip to the surface, or get sued by the victim and/or family if she survived but ended up crippled from DCS.

Yes, the victim is tragically dead from this incident, and at this moment in time we are not exactly sure what more the DM could have potentially done to prevent her heading into the abyss from the info at hand (other than not letting her get further than a grab away in the first place) BUT if she had removed the victim's weights and launched her like a Polaris missile, then she is directly responsible for what happened to her and knowing what the world is like these days, even though it would have been done with the right intentions (getting the woman to the surface), a lawsuit would surely have been winging its way to her shortly afterwards.

Getting hold of a diver and controlling their ascent is one thing, removing their weights and launching them to the surface (especially from 140+ feet) is another altogether.

JMO

Mark

[Web Monkey]

I was thinking the same thing but, if intentional, I can see how that could happen. Short of NEVER taking ones eyes off this diver, it could happen pretty quick.

One of the big "take away" points in the SSI DiveCon program (and I would assume PADI DM) is that a professional cert means you're diving for someone else, not you.

This means that being hired as an individual diver's "buddy" is actually a job and from the time the diver leaves the boat until he/she returns, it's your job to make sure that nothing bad happens. This requires that you know where the diver is at all times.

Terry

[mikerault]

Pull her (or their) weights then straddle the tank and control the ascent. They can't push you away with you behind them and you have control. I learned this in rescue diver class, so should have the DM. As a Dm they should usually be slightly over weighted to be sure they can handle an out of control ascent on the part of a member of their party.

[DandyDon]

That would have been a great time to dich the victim's weights, wave goodbye and follow the ascent to the surface.

Terry

Pull her (or their) weights then straddle the tank and control the ascent. They can't push you away with you behind them and you have control. I learned this in rescue diver class, so should have the DM. As a Dm they should usually be slightly over weighted to be sure they can handle an out of control ascent on the part of a member of their party.
A better action, I think. But that was a basic part of my Rescue training - dumping their weights if needed and getting behind for better control. I presume any DM knows this too?

[Web Monkey]

And then get sued by the victim's family if she dies from a lung over-expansion injury on her rapid trip to the surface, or get sued by the victim and/or family if she survived but ended up crippled from DCS.

I'm Not a Lawyer, but I don't believe there's any way to get sued and lose for following training while attempting to prevent the death of a diver who is acting irrationally and in imminent danger. And by definition, a new OW diver @ 140' is both.

Weight ditching is a last resort used to put someone on the surface when nothing else works. It's not guaranteed safe, but is probably better than dead.

If you're talking about "me", I would have grabbed the tank valve from behind and given a demonstration of exactly why I wear a BC with 75 pounds of lift when working with people I might have to haul out of the water.

However in this case, the DM apparently didn't feel up to the task or wasn't properly equipped, which is why weight ditching would have been appropriate.

Terry

[Dantheengineer]

That would have been a great time to dich the victim's weights, wave goodbye and follow the ascent to the surface.

Terry

From 140'? she may have lived, i guess. If the Vic was fighting off assistance in the mode i'm given to understand then she'd have fought this action too and in the process the two would have just dropped another X number of feet.

I dare say i'll hear about breathing mixes and will forward accordingly.

Cavediver, that was my first question. I believe the situation came to escalate after instructor 3. allowed sufficient respect to Mrs Wood to perform her own dive then tried to bring her back into line when she was seen to be pushing the limits. If 3. had two charges, as is understood (Mr & Mrs wood), this would explain why she was called up first before 3. descended to "hands on" her up.
Given the huge variation in skill, ability and individual style of diver a pro here is faced with, it's not unusual to access the skills visually and "go with the flow" of the diver. Most (if not all) clients resent a more complete control, these two were after all not on a resort dive.
That, coupled with the fact that in crystal clear water 20' isnt that greater distance unless it's suddenly a head start for a race...............

The procurement for a private DM, is also said to be at the very last minute. To the extent that the boat was unable to leave until Mrs Wood returned from the dive shop having procured 3. as a private DM.
With the benefit of hind sight one would surly have suggested a refresher course that would have been performed at a "bottomed" site rather than placing the responsibility upon a DM, the moral perhaps is that the Customer isn't always right.........

Again i'd reiterate that the "facts" i write related to this specific incident are not and in no way first hand, rather the communal understanding of events by those not even necessarily directly involved. I, like most of us i'm sure, await onlyhalcyon's input as the most belief worthy source of detail.

[Dantheengineer]

Now, you see, to me this report appears "padded" - I talk from over 30 years in the commercial dive business where I have seen my fair share of "incidents", and honestly, I have a few issues with some of the comments which seem to me, highly unlikely responses from a diver suffering from narcosis.

Nowhere in any post do we read the diver was struggeling or under extreme stress, actually from all reports I read here nowhere is it reported she was in any way out of control, (this is easy to see in any diver) hense we can assume narcosis is certainly a factor.

Now, in my opinion, a diver suffering high levels of stress will / may fight off assistance, however not a diver suffering only the effects of narcosis - hense if we assume the diver was suffering narcosis I think its highly unlikely they would (a) physically push assistance away (b) have the presence of mind to vent the BC continually - this "venting" is in my opinion not a normal reaction for any diver, certainly not one suffering from narcosis or even stress.

The part about body language and continual venting etc, - well, I have to ask, what was the aggressive body language? - a diver suffering narcosis is very unlikely to exhibit aggression - again its not a natural reaction - a diver stressed beyond control yes, but then they would not have full control of the equipment (continued venting) as she appeared to have.

I think the rest of the report makes sense.

Please, Dantheengineer, understand, I mean no offence, the patrs I outline simply dont gel in my water logged brain, I assume you just recalled it as you heard it, thats fine and I appreciate it, however in my humble opinion the story is getting somewhat embellished as it gos along.

You are absolutely correct. As stated it's my own interpretation of events described to me by no more than dockside hearsay. I've tried to stick to the facts as recounted but i'm no policeman by any means. If it's any consolation at all there's allot more people at this end trying to make sense of and learn from this tragic incident. As i also allude, many involved are members here and although feel unable to post, may well answer specific questions if asked. However indirectly......

In the mean time i'll pad less............:no:

[Cave Diver]

I'm Not a Lawyer, but I don't believe there's any way to get sued and lose for following training while attempting to prevent the death of a diver who is acting irrationally and in imminent danger. And by definition, a new OW diver @ 140' is both.

I'm not a lawyer either, but there are a lot of lawsuits I don't believe that could be lost, but the juries disagreed.

[stevejaz]

From 140'? she may have lived, i guess. If the Vic was fighting off assistance in the mode i'm given to understand then she'd have fought this action too and in the process the two would have just dropped another X number of feet.

I dare say i'll hear about breathing mixes and will forward accordingly.

Cavediver, that was my first question. I believe the situation came to escalate after instructor 3. allowed sufficient respect to Mrs Wood to perform her own dive then tried to bring her back into line when she was seen to be pushing the limits. If 3. had two charges, as is understood (Mr & Mrs wood), this would explain why she was called up first before 3. descended to "hands on" her up.
Given the huge variation in skill, ability and individual style of diver a pro here is faced with, it's not unusual to access the skills visually and "go with the flow" of the diver. Most (if not all) clients resent a more complete control, these two were after all not on a resort dive.
That, coupled with the fact that in crystal clear water 20' isnt that greater distance unless it's suddenly a head start for a race...............

The procurement for a private DM, is also said to be at the very last minute. To the extent that the boat was unable to leave until Mrs Wood returned from the dive shop having procured 3. as a private DM.
With the benefit of hind sight one would surly have suggested a refresher course that would have been performed at a "bottomed" site rather than placing the responsibility upon a DM, the moral perhaps is that the Customer isn't always right.........

Again i'd reiterate that the "facts" i write related to this specific incident are not and in no way first hand, rather the communal understanding of events by those not even necessarily directly involved. I, like most of us i'm sure, await onlyhalcyon's input as the most belief worthy source of detail.

All due respect...but

I'd say this is definitely a bit biased as you are obviously close with this outfit and the people who work there.

First, if this was a last minute procurment of the DM before the boat could leave, I'm guessing thats because when everyone was being signed in on that boat she was discovered to have not dived for more than 3 years and should have had a refresher. I say this because when I was there, the DM on our boat (short fiesty gal whom I can't remember her name) asked this of a diver and when she discovered he hadn't dove in 3 years, kicked him off for the refresher in the pool. He was then ferried out to join the group on the second dive.

Second, at this dive site, they don't moor that close to the wall, getting there is no accident and this was the first dive. So even if they were doing an impromptu refresher, it shouldn't have been on the edge of a 6000' wall with a 20' seperation.

So while I'm not criticizing anyone, this operation is not the holier than though operation you're painting it to be. They have both good and bad DM's/personel as I've experienced personally. They also see all types as you have mentioned, but this is no excuse, it's just part of doing business with the general public.

So again, I'm not criticizing you and value your posts, but I do think they are a bit biased as are mine due to previous experience no matter how unbiased I try to make them.

P.S. I sure hope Mr. Wood (or family members) doesn't read this given some of the speculation of the unmentionable.

Steve

[Thalassamania]

You're free to keep blaming the operation (you're rather good at it) but if it was my intent to harm myself by going over that wall into the abyss, I'm pretty sure there's no single person who would be able stop me.There's no evidence or indication of any such thing in this case, however as far as your braggadocio concerning your ability to commit suicide in the face of even the most effective leadership personnel on the planet ... I suspect that you are wrong, perhaps we could give it a try?:D

[Cave Diver]

There's no evidence or indication of any such thing in this case, however as far as your braggadocio concerning your ability to commit suicide in the face of even the most effective leadership personnel on the planet ... I suspect that you are wrong, perhaps we could give it a try?:D

Looks like a post that belongs in the ScubaBoard challenge section. ;)

[Riger]

..... however as far as your braggadocio concerning your ability to commit suicide in the face of even the most effective leadership personnel on the planet ... I suspect that you are wrong, perhaps we could give it a try?:D



Touché

Best Regards
Richard

[Thalassamania]

My first question would center on how someone in the care of a private DM ended up 20' below her to begin with.I have the same thought..
I thought about that too. I have never been tasked as an underwater caretaker, my question to the professionals; "Is it unreasonable that a DM caring for a diver looks away from their charge long enough (say 30 seconds?) for them to get 7m below you?"

Best Regards
RichardYes, it is unreasonable.

[Steve50]

There's no evidence or indication of any such thing in this case, however as far as your braggadocio concerning your ability to commit suicide in the face of even the most effective leadership personnel on the planet ... I suspect that you are wrong, perhaps we could give it a try?:D


suggest using Thal's home field...

[deepstops]

There's no evidence or indication of any such thing in this case, however as far as your braggadocio concerning your ability to commit suicide in the face of even the most effective leadership personnel on the planet ... I suspect that you are wrong, perhaps we could give it a try?:D

You try first and I'll be the rescuer. Fair enough?

[mikemath]

That would have been a great time to dich the victim's weights, wave goodbye and follow the ascent to the surface.

Terry

If the DM knew, as we know now, that the diver would have died as a result, I'm sure they would have done something like that. However, were I in the DM's shoes, actively causing a buoyant ascent from 140 feet (or even 80 feet) has an extremely high level of risk itself. This thread could just as easily be about why "the idiot DiveMaster didn't allow a diver to dive their own plan, and caused their death by DCS because of their action".

Would any reasonable person assume that someone would willingly (as evidenced by continuing to dump air) descend further than 140 feet when released at that depth? Even if I had a physical altercation with a diver, I would expect them to build some horizontal distance, maybe flip me off, and head to a safer level, giving me an earful after the dive. Gesticulating angrily as they willingly descend to their deaths is not a reaction I would anticipate, and I can only imagine the horror the DM felt knowing that was a likely outcome after aborting their attempt to ascend with the diver.

[Thalassamania]

You try first and I'll be the rescuer. Fair enough?
No - it's your claim - not mine.

But I'll tell you what - just to bend over backwards, I'll put the weakest instructor that I've ever trained on the task ... if that'll help you make your case.

[Cave Diver]

You try first and I'll be the rescuer. Fair enough?

No - it's your claim - not mine.

But I'll tell you what - just to bend over backwards, I'll put the weakest instructor that I've ever trained on the task ... if that'll help you make your case.

As interesting as I think this would be to watch, this thread is probably not the place for this particular discussion.

[deepstops]

No - it's your claim - not mine.

But I'll tell you what - just to bend over backwards, I'll put the weakest instructor that I've ever trained on the task ... if that'll help you make your case.

perhaps we could give it a try?

You said "we", you're a funny guy :shakehead:

[deepstops]

As interesting as I think this would be to watch, this thread is probably not the place for this particular discussion.

Agreed. But I stand by my statement that if someone wanted to do this, they could.

[DocIndyDiver]

Widget makes a good point. Narced and competent enough to use a dump valve? I can't get new divers to use one correctly when they're sober (non-narced).

[Web Monkey]

Would any reasonable person assume that someone would willingly (as evidenced by continuing to dump air) descend further than 140 feet when released at that depth?

You bet. They've already exhibited very poor judgement to get that far and are unlikely to get any smarter as narcosis increases.

If I found a new or inexperienced diver @140', especially a diver that had hired me as a "buddy", I would assume a mental defect of some sort and act accordingly to do my best to prevent injury or death.

In any case, with a DM having a single person as a buddy, this entire incident should never have happened. The real failure here is once again "buddy skills" and "buddy separation". The diver should never have been allowed to drop any significant distance below the planned depth, which would have made all of this a non-issue.

Terry

[mikerault]

Whenever I have hired a DM for my wife (she is only Scuba Diver level, not OW so it is required) they hold her hand or keep a hold of her tank valve during the ENTIRE dive.

Mike

[stevejaz]

...or, narced and pressing the dump valve mistaking it for the inflation valve? Panicking, not thinking rationally, and somebody is accosting you?

....Or, just being stubborn and wanting to go deeper despite the young wipper snapper trying to thort your efforts? Who's to say for sure?

[Thalassamania]

Agreed. But I stand by my statement that if someone wanted to do this, they could.All that you can honestly say is that if someone wanted to do this you suspect that is would be beyond your capacity to prevent it ... you have no right to speak for other peoples' abilities or capacities.

[DandyDon]

If the DM knew, as we know now, that the diver would have died as a result, I'm sure they would have done something like that. However, were I in the DM's shoes, actively causing a buoyant ascent from 140 feet (or even 80 feet) has an extremely high level of risk itself. This thread could just as easily be about why "the idiot DiveMaster didn't allow a diver to dive their own plan, and caused their death by DCS because of their action".

Would any reasonable person assume that someone would willingly (as evidenced by continuing to dump air) descend further than 140 feet when released at that depth? Even if I had a physical altercation with a diver, I would expect them to build some horizontal distance, maybe flip me off, and head to a safer level, giving me an earful after the dive. Gesticulating angrily as they willingly descend to their deaths is not a reaction I would anticipate, and I can only imagine the horror the DM felt knowing that was a likely outcome after aborting their attempt to ascend with the diver.
I agree, pulling the weights and watch them ascend was not a good suggestion.

Ever been narced? It's sneaky. Different at different times. Makes you do things.

Do the Rescue course. I think your Inst will teach you get them up, one way or another, and as a last resort - get behind, take control, use control to what's needed. in position behind, holding tank valve, dropping Ms.W's weights - could still make a controlled ride - then ground her from diving. If only one O2 mask onboard, radio for another.

[Dantheengineer]

You bet. They've already exhibited very poor judgement to get that far and are unlikely to get any smarter as narcosis increases.

If I found a new or inexperienced diver @140', especially a diver that had hired me as a "buddy", I would assume a mental defect of some sort and act accordingly to do my best to prevent injury or death.

In any case, with a DM having a single person as a buddy, this entire incident should never have happened. The real failure here is once again "buddy skills" and "buddy separation". The diver should never have been allowed to drop any significant distance below the planned depth, which would have made all of this a non-issue.

Terry

To clarify, i'm told the DM was charged with both Mr and Mrs. Wood. But as you go on to say restricting the charges depth to that previously agreed would have negated the danger preemptively....

Yes Steve, but the only thing i'd affiliate myself with closer than my friends is the honest truth.

I'm sorry if i paint the operation as holier than thou. (I dont know how holy you are...........:D)
Of course it's not, i can tell you stories that'd curl your hair, even under the dive hood:blinking:

You are as entitled to your opinion as am i.

I'd again draw your attention to the number of actual reported accidents/dangerous incidents related to this operation (here on the "board" or anywhere), with specific reference to the number of clients serviced.

I've only heard of three in the last year or so. Bias or not, i hear most everything.
One of these was actually on an outer island (Andros) and on a chartered boat from SC's under the direction of a local dive operation. One was a snorkeller on the shark dive and the last was a heart attack. Only the heart attack vic actually expired.

I do try to stick to the facts. If you wish to ignore my posts i'll totally understand. S'your prerogative.
As i reiterate again.....i did not actually witness any of the events and only can attest to the characters involved in this instance.

I proffer the previous "report" only for conjecture and had hoped merely to "jog" Meg's memory into either substantiating or corroboration or denial of specific instances or in the hopes that onlyhalcyon will do the same in his own time.

[Doc Intrepid]

Hawaii JuJitsu KoDenKai - MizuJitsu - Scuba & Water Safety Course (http://www.pixi.com/~mcjitsu/mizujitsu/mizujitsu.html)

At one point the Divemaster had hands-on with the victim, regardless of how far above the victim she may have been when the issue was recognized.

Therefore, I don't think the outcome can be entirely said to be caused by buddy separation.

During the hands-on episode, whatever actions the DM took, they were ineffective at fighting off an aggressive victim. Why the victim was aggressive is really only speculation at this point.

Short of this sort of training:
Hawaii JuJitsu KoDenKai - MizuJitsu - Scuba & Water Safety Course (http://www.pixi.com/~mcjitsu/mizujitsu/mizujitsu.html)

I don't see how - at 140', on the way down fast, with someone venting their BC as you attempt to fill it - your basic DM is going to resolve that before both of them are heading south of 180'-200'

140 fsw is over 5 ATA and soon they would be passing through 6 ATA. Dropping someone's weights at 6 ATA is not going to produce the sudden bouyancy that I suspect some of you believe. Further up during the ascent? Yes. But at 165' and falling? No.

And one of the first rules of rescue is "don't lose someone in the attempt, providing two bodies to recover instead of one".

Feel free to disagree. YMMV.

Doc

[Dantheengineer]

Can we start a thread to vote on whether Deep Stops and Thal should Roshambo over it, South Park style?

Roshambo
In modern day United States, Roshambo or Rochambeau is when two or more guys kick, punch, squeeze, or knee each other in the groin to win something (an object, money, bets, etc..) untill one of them gives up or falls down. The last one standing wins. This is a modern American twist on the game.

It is also a very old word of Egyptian origin for the child game "Paper, Sissors, Rock".

In the TV series South Park, Cartman and his friends play the game "I'll Rochambeau you for it", by kicking the opponent in the crotch. The first one to fall over loses the game. This of course means the first person to go is usually the winner. This is a way of choosing, and it's called Rochambeau.

[deepstops]

All that you can honestly say is that if someone wanted to do this you suspect that is would be beyond your capacity to prevent it ... you have no right to speak for other peoples' abilities or capacities.

Nor do you. :no:

But you're quick to place blame on this instructor.

[Web Monkey]

[/URL]
Short of this sort of training:
[URL="http://www.pixi.com/%7Emcjitsu/mizujitsu/mizujitsu.html"]Hawaii JuJitsu KoDenKai - MizuJitsu - Scuba & Water Safety Course (http://www.pixi.com/%7Emcjitsu/mizujitsu/mizujitsu.html)

I don't see how - at 140', on the way down fast, with someone venting their BC as you attempt to fill it - your basic DM is going to resolve that before both of them are heading south of 180'-200'



Get behind the soon-to-be-victim.
Grab the tank valve.
Inflate your BC as necessary and surface.

Terry

[Cave Diver]

Hawaii JuJitsu KoDenKai - MizuJitsu - Scuba & Water Safety Course (http://www.pixi.com/~mcjitsu/mizujitsu/mizujitsu.html)

At one point the Divemaster had hands-on with the victim, regardless of how far above the victim she may have been when the issue was recognized.

Therefore, I don't think the outcome can be entirely said to be caused by buddy separation.


It would seem that the seperation was the precursor to the incident though. If the "hands on" had occured 20-40' shallower, would that have allowed the DM sufficient time to get their charge back under control and ascend safely?

It's hard to say for sure, but I think it does raise a good question.

[Doc Intrepid]

It would seem that the seperation was the precursor to the incident though. If the "hands on" had occured 20-40' shallower, would that have allowed the DM sufficient time to get their charge back under control and ascend safely?

It's hard to say for sure, but I think it does raise a good question.
Absolutely agree with you, CD.

Had the hands-on happened earlier, OR - as Terry said - had the DM gotten some non-onboard inflation going (lift bag, other diver's wing, whatever) earlier - could have been a different outcome.

But given the specific set of circumstances posted, ('passing through 140' and falling' - hypothetical?,) the response time for a diver on a single aluminum 80 with elevated respiratory rate and a non-cooperative victim is going to be compressed.

It certainly could be all the fault of an ill-trained DM.

But, given what (little) I think I understand about the circumstances, I would be reluctant to level those charges just yet.

FWIW. YMMV.

Doc

[Doc Intrepid]

Double post.

[Thalassamania]

Hawaii JuJitsu KoDenKai - MizuJitsu - Scuba & Water Safety Course (http://www.pixi.com/%7Emcjitsu/mizujitsu/mizujitsu.html)

At one point the Divemaster had hands-on with the victim, regardless of how far above the victim she may have been when the issue was recognized.

Therefore, I don't think the outcome can be entirely said to be caused by buddy separation.

During the hands-on episode, whatever actions the DM took, they were ineffective at fighting off an aggressive victim. Why the victim was aggressive is really only speculation at this point.

Short of this sort of training:
Hawaii JuJitsu KoDenKai - MizuJitsu - Scuba & Water Safety Course (http://www.pixi.com/%7Emcjitsu/mizujitsu/mizujitsu.html)

I don't see how - at 140', on the way down fast, with someone venting their BC as you attempt to fill it - your basic DM is going to resolve that before both of them are heading south of 180'-200'

140 fsw is over 5 ATA and soon they would be passing through 6 ATA. Dropping someone's weights at 6 ATA is not going to produce the sudden bouyancy that I suspect some of you believe. Further up during the ascent? Yes. But at 165' and falling? No.

And one of the first rules of rescue is "don't lose someone in the attempt, providing two bodies to recover instead of one".

Feel free to disagree. YMMV.

DocI think I already explained how a DM could handle the problem without having to first become a submersible Shaolin. Course looks interesting I may give it a try on my next trip to Honolulu.
Can we start a thread to vote on whether Deep Stops and Thal should Roshambo over it, South Park style?
Naw ... my approach is more that of Butch Cassidy, "first let's get the rules straight." Maybe I'd just throw the match and win by losing.:D

[mikemath]

I think a key contributing factor to this death has been identified, the 20 foot depth separation created between the diver and the DM. This delayed the action by the DM (they had to get down to the diver), and created less distance to the "maximum depth of safe rescue" the DM had unconsciously or consciously determined (140 feet). Some very experienced posters have asserted that a private DM paying appropriate attention would not allow this to happen, and I have no reason to doubt this. Given that this separation occurred, it sounds to me like the DM applied her best efforts, but it's possible the outcome could have been different without the separation.

I'm wondering to what extent communication could have been a contributing factor as well. It seems likely that the diver did not understand what the DM was trying to say. The thumbs-up/ascend signal is one I've seen misinterpreted as "good?/good." by new students. Putting myself in the diver's shoes, seeing what I perceived as an "everything's good" sign, and then perceiving that I was being "attacked" by someone would certainly get my adrenaline pumping. Replace the "thumbs up" with an "ok" sign and you'll see what I mean. Getting back to preventative lessons from this incident, how would you communicate the severity of the depth situation to a novice diver at 80 feet?

I'm thinking if the ascend sign failed, I would point to my depth gauge and indicate that they should do so, and motion "60". Failing that, I would try "you follow me". Physical confrontation would be my last resort. I remember how angry I was on my ~15th dive when I was electing to hover a couple feet above our group to examine something in the kelp, clearly in control of buoyancy, and another diver (who I didn't know at the time but turned out to be an instructor) grabbed my fin to pull me down to their level. Communication instead of physical intervention would seem to be preferable due to less possibility of escalation.

[Cave Diver]

I'm wondering to what extent communication could have been a contributing factor as well. It seems likely that the diver did not understand what the DM was trying to say. The thumbs-up/ascend signal is one I've seen misinterpreted as "good?/good." by new students. Putting myself in the diver's shoes, seeing what I perceived as an "everything's good" sign, and then perceiving that I was being "attacked" by someone would certainly get my adrenaline pumping. Replace the "thumbs up" with an "ok" sign and you'll see what I mean. Getting back to preventative lessons from this incident, how would you communicate the severity of the depth situation to a novice diver at 80 feet?

I'm thinking if the ascend sign failed, I would point to my depth gauge and indicate that they should do so, and motion "60". Failing that, I would try "you follow me".

If they aren't correctly understanding a thumbs up by this point, would you have realistic expectations they'd understand "60" or "follow me?"

I'm not saying it shouldn't be tried, but at what point do you cease attempting to communicate and actually act?

[Doc Intrepid]

"Getting back to preventative lessons from this incident, how would you communicate the severity of the depth situation to a novice diver at 80 feet?"
Following on what CD said, at 80 feet you have a couple options:
1. Point at your depth indicator.
2. Lift their (computer) and point at their depth reading.
3. Lift their (computer) and point at their time remaining.
4. Get their attention and give them the "question mark" signal, followed by the bird, meaning "W-T-F?"

But this didn't happen at 80'. It happened at 140' and falling...

There may be other more effective response actions you could take, to be sure, but in terms of communications, as you're falling between 140' and 165' on a single 80 with a combative victim your communicatory options are limited...

[mikemath]

If they aren't correctly understanding a thumbs up by this point, would you have realistic expectations they'd understand "60" or "follow me?"

I'm not saying it shouldn't be tried, but at what point do you cease attempting to communicate and actually act?

It seems very context-dependent, and I guess I'm more interested in general principles than this particular incident. This incident provides a good chance to apply theory to an actual incident and run through possible outcomes. If they were 80 feet and getting deeper by the second there's more urgency than if they're stable at 80 feet just seemingly enjoying the scenery. While 80 feet is beyond the recommended depth for the OW certification, it doesn't pose an immediate threat beyond more rapid air consumption (120%) and shorter NDL (30 mins instead of 55). Similarly, being on a wall is far different than having a physically-imposed max depth withing recreational limits.

My ulterior motive is I'm working towards my DiveMaster certification and may well end up with a similar situation. I'd like to know what experienced divers and instructors feel is the boundary between trying communication versus physically intervening.

[stevejaz]

Dan, in rereading my post it does come off as a bit personal, not my intention and I apologize. I freely admit that I am biased but am trying to objectively analyze the situation and at the same time applying what I know of the operation, site, and my limited experience with them.

With that said, my own instructor knocked them for some of their practices and they worked there! One of which being poorly maintained equipment as we had a reg failure and a BC failure when I was there, all caught in pre-dive inspections.

Some of what you have said is contridictory to eye witness accounts. Specifically whom Mr. Wood was diving with and I believe with out going back and looking, you said all of their personel were well trained and good at what they do (I'm paraphasing here).

My point being that if you know all of the personel that it does potentially subconsciously bias you. Not saying that anything you say is incorrect and I'm sure to the best of your knowledge you are just relaying the facts. But, if I'm a DM that just lost somebody due to lack of diligence, am I going to slant the story a bit even subconsciously as I'm sure they are in shock as well?

However, by no means do I want to infer anything about the DM involved, as stated, this may have been totally our of their control and they were predestined to fail.

As for their safety record, that's great, but as we may be witnessing here, failure to follow procedures just once may have catostrophic results.

It does sound as though she shouldn't have been where she was and having witnessed divers in that same location that weren't qualified to be there first hand, I suspect these aren't the only two cases of this happening.

As for your posts, please continue as they are insightful, me opposing some of your input is only meant to insight thought with a common goal.

Respectfully,
Steve

[mikemath]

There may be other more effective response actions you could take, to be sure, but in terms of communications, as you're falling between 140' and 165' on a single 80 with a combative victim your communicatory options are limited...

I think we agreeing on that point. It seems from the on-site reports that the physical interaction led to the descent below 80 feet (due to the combative reaction of the victim). Because of that, I'd like to determine if the physical intervention by the DM was premature or whether other dive professionals believe feel this is DM intervened in a way any reasonably competent divemaster would be expected to act.

[Cave Diver]

I'd like to know what experienced divers and instructors feel is the boundary between trying communication versus physically intervening.

Response dependent. If the diver is in no immediate danger, acknowledges communication and responds accordingly then physical intervention is unneccessary. On the other hand, if theres and imminent threat, lack of response, etc. then it's time to act.

It is much better to be anticipatory than reactionary. Staying aware and anticipating problems is much better than having to react with a physical response.

[Thalassamania]

I think we agreeing on that point. It seems from the on-site reports that the physical interaction led to the descent below 80 feet (due to the combative reaction of the victim). Because of that, I'd like to determine if the physical intervention by the DM was premature or whether other dive professionals believe feel this is DM intervened in a way any reasonably competent instructor would be expected to act.No, she needed to have had complete control of the situation and clearly did not. I would expect leadership level personnel to have had a hand on the tank valve or be holding hands for the entire dive, especially when not over a hard bottom.

[mikemath]

No, she needed to have had complete control of the situation and clearly did not. I would expect leadership level personnel to have had a hand on the tank valve or be holding hands for the entire dive, especially when not over a hard bottom.

Interesting--that's unexpected for me as a standard operating procedure for supervising a newly certified diver. I'm probably betraying my Northern California experience bias again, but I haven't seen that sort of direct control applied to new divers. How widespread is this practice and what is the experience level you would require of a diver before observing them from nearby instead of in direct contact?

Also, it hasn't been clear from the posts, but it's possible this DM was responsible for both the victim and her husband. Should you link hands with both?

[Thalassamania]

I share your Northern California roots but I fail to see what that changes.

Holding onto two divers can be very difficult.

[Doc Intrepid]

jon lines.

one clipped to each.

;)

[Cave Diver]

jon lines.

one clipped to each.

;)

Why does this image suddenly come to mind? :D



http://www.akworld.net/webblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/dog_walker.jpg

[mikemath]

I share your Northern California roots but I fail to see what that changes.

It may not be a factor--I'm just trying to determine what standard practices private DiveMasters should adhere to. I've never seen in-water DiveMasters holding tanks or hands. That could be due to locale (which based on your post, it doesn't seem to be), due to lack of experience of DiveMasters at higher-risk sites (my only experience watching in-water DiveMasters has been at relatively benign locations), or any number of other reasons. Since I don't know how often DiveMasters should hold tank/hands, I'm trying to understand it better. I could ask my DM course instructor when we meet later this week, but ScubaBoard has spoiled me with instant gratification. :)

[Web Monkey]

Interesting--that's unexpected for me as a standard operating procedure for supervising a newly certified diver. I'm probably betraying my Northern California experience bias again, but I haven't seen that sort of direct control applied to new divers. How widespread is this practice and what is the experience level you would require of a diver before observing them from nearby instead of in direct contact?

In most of the Northeast US and Canada, the DM/DiveCon probably isn't on the boat and in any case, doesn't get in the water unless special arrangements are made.

This means that the divers are personally responsible for their own safety and so far, it's worked nicely. Divers tend to be much more conservative when they know they're on their own.

The recent fatalities have been in tropical locations where the DM routinely gets in the water with the divers.

Terry

[LeadTurn_SD]

...I haven't seen that sort of direct control applied to new divers. How widespread is this practice and what is the experience level you would require of a diver before observing them from nearby instead of in direct contact?

I've observed instructors and DM's "assist" new vacation divers in this fashion (hand on the tank valve, holding hands).

I've done the same thing with brand new dive buddies who were having bouyancy issues.

I think it is more a factor of how much bouyancy control the diver exhibits that would lead a DM or Instructor to decide to maintain physical contact "just in case".

What you may be observing where you dive in Northern California is divers who dive more regularly and thus have better bouyancy control, and not tropical "vacation" divers who may only dive a few times a year, if even that frequently.

Best wishes

[Cave Diver]

Since I don't know how often DiveMasters should hold tank/hands, I'm trying to understand it better. I could ask my DM course instructor when we meet later this week, but ScubaBoard has spoiled me with instant gratification. :)

I think that if this is a practice that is having to occur often, someone should be re-evaluating skills or choice of dive sites.

I could understand if a normally benign site suddenly experiences heavier than normal current, or lower than normal viz due to environmental reasons, but if a DM does this as a matter of course, either they are doing a poor job choosing the dive site, or a poor job filtering the skill level of the divers they are taking out.

IMO it should be the exception, not the rule.

[mikerault]

Due to my wifes low cert level they probably feel she needs the added assurence, perhaps this couples apparent ease in the water had the DM feeling they were ok.

[Cave Diver]

jon lines.

one clipped to each.

;)

Funny, this exact same conversation is occuring elsewhere as well, starting here:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4470990-post62.html

[scubadude79]

Sorry,but has this ever happened to any of you ?

Meg Diver,
Regardless of some people and their comments in support or against you, it is important for you to be able to de-brief in a supportive environment. :shakehead:

Critical Incident Stress is a factor that we all learn about in Rescue Diver class, and I am sure you are going through this. This can happen to the individuals whom directly participated in the rescue and others that were bystanders.

If you feel any symptoms of depression, guilt, anxiety, denial, etc. ; please heed to my advise to seek professional counseling. This can easily turn into Post Traumatic Stress Disorder if not carefully monitored.

Thank you for your story, and my prayers are with the family, friends, rescuers, and charter boat patrons who witnessed this tragedy.

[RichnLenny]

i totally agree dandydon going for another dive after losing someone? unthinkable for me personally. Its not just Meg that has made this thread a tad incoherent pages ago someone randomly threw in something about american bubble wrap guy Watson??? nothing to do with this thread.

[InTheDrink]

I know it's been mentioned already, and I don't have the wealth of knowledge or experience to draw on that others here have, but it really does sound like this lady took her own life. In a very conscious way.

Maybe she had cancer? Who knows. Entire speculation but from the first and second hand reports here it sounds like she deliberately fought off any assistance. I struggle to come to any conclusion other than suicide. Narcosis doesn't add up at all so I discount that. There appears no functional impairment given she was ok dumping from shoulder valve. This view point is of course predicated on the accuracy of the information supplied so far. It would be great if Halcyon, MegDiver et al. could rejoin the dialogue.

J

And Deepstops, you are right. Even the mighty Thal couldn't stop a vaguely competent and determined someone from killing themselves on a dive.

[Thalassamania]

And Deepstops, you are right. Even the mighty Thal couldn't stop a vaguely competent and determined someone from killing themselves on a dive.I beg to differ, the weakest Instructor that I've ever trained could rather easily prevent the scenario that we are discussing ... now suicide by uncontrollable ascent - that's another story. You see a diver can only esablish rather limited negative buoyancy, positive buoyancy is only limited by BC size.

[InTheDrink]

I beg to differ, the weakest Instructor that I've ever trained could rather easily prevent the scenario that we are discussing ... now suicide by uncontrollable ascent - that's another story. You see a diver can only esablish rather limited negative buoyancy, positive buoyancy is only limited by BC size.

I'm gettnig tired of bowing to your clearly superior knowledge/experience. :D

If a competent diver really wants to kill them self, an instructor can at best be an irritation. Happy to be shown how this is wrong.

I've saved several would be unintended climbing 'suicides' but that was by people being idiots. If they knew what they were doing and had intended to kill themselves there's nothing I would have been able to do. Admittedly, gravity has less impact underwater but there are still countless ways to do away with yourself in this environment where no-one could save you.

In any event, it's a moot point. In most circumstances a determined diver will be more than able to take their own life. Particularly if they'd been trained by you ;)

Still hoping Halcyon and MegDiver update us all.

J

[Katamuki]

That would have been a great time to dich the victim's weights, wave goodbye and follow the ascent to the surface.

Terry

At that time you would be prosecuted for negligent homicide.....

[Katamuki]

Widget makes a good point. Narced and competent enough to use a dump valve? I can't get new divers to use one correctly when they're sober (non-narced).

I have seen divers come to our islands and be confused between the inflator button and the dump valve button. Maybe its possible she thought she WAS inflating?

[Thalassamania]

If a competent diver really wants to kill them self, an instructor can at best be an irritation. Happy to be shown how this is wrong. I'm not disagreeing, all that I am saying is that competent leadership personnel should be on top of the situation and could rather easily (tank valve hold and air siphon) prevent a descent (which was the problem).

[InTheDrink]

I'm not disagreeing, all that I am saying is that competent leadership personnel should be on top of the situation and could rather easily (tank valve hold and air siphon) prevent a descent (which was the problem).

In the event that the diver was out of control, yes, absolutely. But I get the feeling that this diver was descending deliberately. To be totally honest, in my very little experience, new or incompetent divers tend not to use shoulder or bum dumps. The use their inflator dump. So I'm guessing - and clearly this is guessing - that this girl knew what she was doing. In that event you're going to struggle to get someone back up.

That said, ABSOLUTELY, a half decent pro should be able to deal with a negative (not-in-control) diver, easily.

J

[InTheDrink]

I have seen divers come to our islands and be confused between the inflator button and the dump valve button. Maybe its possible she thought she WAS inflating?

Possible but sounds unlikely. I've seen it happen, but the reactions from this diver as reported don't seem to support incompetence - but clearly I could be wrong as I have zero first or second hand knowledge. Just something *feels* wrong about this incident. Doesn't *feel* like an incompetent getting it all wrong and getting buttons mixed up.

But something else feels wrong too. Getting the DM at the last minute... hmmm... If I were a little more CSI'd up I'd be dreaming up theories by the minute...

[clofty]

I have seen divers come to our islands and be confused between the inflator button and the dump valve button. Maybe its possible she thought she WAS inflating?

As a relative new OW diver I have done this with different rental gear by accident but not at depth's of more than 60'. If you were suffering from narcosis would you be able to read your depth guage and or know if you were ascending or descending at that depth?
And by the way, it is my personal opinion that I am responsible for me and being close to my buddy. I don't expect my buddy to be looking around for me every single minute (and a minute is a long time down there!).

But if someone in charge of the operation, insisted that because of my inexperience I needed a DM (not me because I'm too cautious) but figurately speaking "I" may be annoyed that I couldn't dive with my husband and his buddy. I may have PMT and be ticked off and then I may have had narcosis and had mental issues due to hormones etc....well anything is possible, there are lots of ifs and lots of variables.

In December I went on my first boat dive in the gulf with my husband and he had to try to rescue a girl who was drowning at the surface as she was spitting out her reg and holding onto the anchor line. My DH is not an advanced diver. This made me panic and I start swallowing a lot of water because the rough seas were knocking my reg out and I was trying to hold onto the line and wait for my husband to descend. The currents on the surface were a bit strong. When my husband was relieved by the DM who gained control of the girl, he got me down where I was seasick in my reg. I continued my dive. My DH kept saying why didn't I go down. I said later I was scared of the current and unsure of the viz and if I would ever find him. We kept our dive short due to the fact that we were worried about the girl and of course we didn't do a second dive...... but sorry I'm off topic:no:

Anyway from a newb's perspective.....

[pilot fish]

I keep thinking, what the hell did this lady pay for? It wasn't for UW companionship. :depressed: It was safety. She seems to have been short changed and did not get what she paid extra for.:shakehead:


I'm not disagreeing, all that I am saying is that competent leadership personnel should be on top of the situation and could rather easily (tank valve hold and air siphon) prevent a descent (which was the problem).

[InTheDrink]

At that time you would be prosecuted for negligent homicide.....

I must say I concur. I've had a few DMs discuss the use of the Up elevator button/ditching weights in rescue scenarios and I think it'd be a big risk, all round. I'm not a rescue diver but unless you are sure someone is otherwise going to die, ditching their weights and pressing level 0 is a big responsibility to take. They could easily die, or even worse, survive and sue from their wheelchair.

Just my Ž£0.02 (which is worth a lot less in the last couple of years)

[mrlipis]

Originally Posted by Thalassamania View Post
No, she needed to have had complete control of the situation and clearly did not. I would expect leadership level personnel to have had a hand on the tank valve or be holding hands for the entire dive, especially when not over a hard bottom.

Interesting--that's unexpected for me as a standard operating procedure for supervising a newly certified diver. I'm probably betraying my Northern California experience bias again, but I haven't seen that sort of direct control applied to new divers. How widespread is this practice and what is the experience level you would require of a diver before observing them from nearby instead of in direct contact?

I don't think Ms. Woods experience has been established here, therefore the argument of how this newly certified diver should have been handled is total speculation. Furthermore, it has not been established as to why she ended up with a personal DM. Was it the Wood's request, or was it required by the dive operation. If I have missed something here please let me know. To me, these two pieces of information are paramount in understanding what the hell happened here.

[jayjoans]

I have a friend that knew Mrs. Wood. Reportedly, she had a mild stroke last month. If she were predisposed to this, a stroke at depth might explain her inability or unwillingness to comply with the DM's instruction to ascend, which turned to combativeness and anger. Not to mention the possible interactions of narcosis with the medication she was likely on due to a recent stroke.

[scubafanatic]

I thought about that too. I have never been tasked as an underwater caretaker, my question to the professionals; "Is it unreasonable that a DM caring for a diver looks away from their charge long enough (say 30 seconds?) for them to get 7m below you?"

Best Regards
Richard

...I agree, that's a bit excessively unfair to the DM, especially since apparently we're not dealing with a diver that casually drifted down an extra 20' but who was making a determined effort to dive deep and 'lose' the DM.....situational awareness requires the DM look about and survey the whole picture...terrain...currents.....etc.....not spend every last moment looking up someone *ss !

[mrlipis]

Originally posted by onlyhalcyon
I am currently on vacation in the Bahamas and only joined this site after reading the posts. I am the primary witness to the dive incident involving Mrs Wood. I will post my account of what happened once I get back to NY and once the Forensic Dive Investigation team has had a chance to talk with all the people involved. I would like to say that prior to talking with the Dive Investigator I had similar views to the posts above. However what we are all missing is the DM's account of what happened. After talking with both the DM and the FDI I now have a clearer understanding of what transpired that morning.

After re-reading this post, I find a few things peculiar. He states that he is THE primary witness yet "after talking with the DM and the FDI" he has a clearer understanding of what happened.
One would think as a primary witness, he would know exactly what happened.

"I would like to say that prior to talking with the Dive Investigator I had similar views to the posts above".
He was the primary witness and had similar views?

Meg has said that NO ONE had talked to him in regards to any type of investigation. I have a gut feeling that we have seen the one and only post from Onlyhalcyon.

I hope I am wrong and we get an opportunity to hear back from him.

[Web Monkey]

At that time you would be prosecuted for negligent homicide.....

I would not be prosecuted for anything, since I would just drag the victim up by the tank valve.

As Thal mentioned, there's a limit to how negative a diver can become, and it's a lot less than the lift I can create with a good sized BC.

The "ditch weights and let go" was in reference to the female DM who apparently didn't feel up to the task of getting the diver back to the surface when pushed away. In that case, sending the diver up might be damaging or fatal, but allowing the victim to continue descending would be (and was) fatal.

Terry

[LeadTurn_SD]

I have a friend that knew Mrs. Wood. Reportedly, she had a mild stroke last month. If she were predisposed to this, a stroke at depth might explain her inability or unwillingness to comply with the DM's instruction to ascend, which turned to combativeness and anger. Not to mention the possible interactions of narcosis with the medication she was likely on due to a recent stroke.

Diving one month post-stroke????? If true, even a mild stoke, this got even stranger.... wow.

Thanks for sharing this.

Best wishes.

[scubafanatic]

That would have been a great time to dich the victim's weights, wave goodbye and follow the ascent to the surface.

Terry

...I'll bet you, that if I wanted to kill myself and stop you from 'saving' me, I could prevent you from ditching my weights to achieve my 'mission'......also, I've got a knife too.....I don't feel a DM is required to beat me in hand-to-hand combat in order to be considered a 'good' DM...I think that's asking a bit much, don't you think ?

[scubafanatic]

If it was intentional, then that lends credibility to the diver ignoring/resisting the DM's attempt to get them to ascend.

If it was unintentional descent, it would seem to indicate inattentiveness or negligence on part of the DM.

...wasn't this a wall dive ??? H*ll, if bouyancy is lost or a diver panics and for whatever reason can't figure what to do to recover bouyancy, the natural survival instinct would be to fin over the the wall and grab something to keep from dropping further...then claw back up the wall...the apparent absence of such a survival instinct is mind boggling for anyone actually wanting to live !