Incident at White Star Quarry, 6/9/09

[TheAquaticApe]

I was diving at White Star today. We were stationed about 30 feet from the rocky ledge at the East end near where the old fence used to be about 100 feet from the walk-in entrance. Shortly after 2pm I had removed my gear and had my dry suit part of the way off when we heard cries for help coming from near the rock-crusher area. Several people ran down in that direction.

Then one of the instructors and the other DM candidate from my group ran down towards the area. The diver on the surface indicated there was a female diver on the bottom. They went in and found her in about 40 feet of water and surfaced. By this time EMS was on-scene. From the first cry for help to landing her on shore it was 10 minutes according to my watch.

A few minutes later a life-flight helicopter landed and it's my understanding she was taken to a hospital in it. While packing up I overheard a gentleman saying that she hadn't made it but I can't confirm this.

When I was leaving around 3pm there were several police vehicles and what appeared to be a public safety diver near the step-off entrance by the crusher.

That's all the information I have at this time.

[jwc3]

First, my sympathies to all involved if indeed this was a fatality.

TheAquaticApe, I think you have reported the wrong date for this incident. Your post title says "6/9/09," but your post was created today, 6/6/09.

[TheAquaticApe]

Thanks for letting me know.

[crazyhorse]

I heard accident victim was early 50s and that this rescuer, from the east end, ran over, donned someone's backpack, tank and mask from shore and dove down to retrieve her, wearing only a swimsuit. I heard she was face up, arms out, not breathing and inflater was not attached to BC. While some witnesses, thought she did not make it, our IDC director said she had a heartbeat when the helicopter took her out...pray it continues...and I hope the tremendous effort by the rescuer is rewarded with her survival and instilled initiative of others to react so quickly.

[TheAquaticApe]

Yes, crazyhorse, both of the guys who jumped in were from my group. One instructor and one RD/DM candidate who also happens to be an MD. They grabbed what was at hand and went in. I was told the inflator was not connected and the tank was empty.

She did have a heartbeat. I overheard a ranger today saying she was alive so we can only hope for the best.

[Busdiver]

I understand that it is early in the investigation of this incident however could we hear more about the incident. Where was her dive buddy? Was that the person yelling at the surface? What where the conditions at Whitestar--water temp (should have been around 56), viz? Do we know if this is a case of a student who just got her C card that day and then went out for her first swim without an instructor? I would also like to hear more about the topside response, especially about EMS and life flight. If I am correct EMS is stationed right around the corner.

I pray that this woman is able to make a full recovery. I really enjoy Whitestar and believe Rich is turning this property into an A+ facility. Our shop is beginning to run students through there and we are encouraging others to train there. With the increase in popularity there will be a greater chance of accidents.

[TheAquaticApe]

I believe the person at the surface who was yelling was the dive buddy, but I am not certain.

He was yelling "Help! Help! She's on the bottom!" Those were the only words I heard.

Conditions were excellent. Viz was outstanding at around 30 feet by my reckoning. Temp above the thermocline right around 57.

The scuba area was pretty much packed on Saturday with most of the nice spots covered with tarps. And I agree, the place is much more professionally run now than what I recall a few years ago.

I know nothing of the victim's experience or certification.

As soon as the yelling started I saw 2 or three people within my view calling 911.

I have to say that at first some people thought it was a training exercise but that only lasted a few seconds. The volume and tone of the man's voice made it clear it wasn't.

I saw a ranger truck with it's lights flashing pull up to the small building on the beach side of the quarry (opposite the diving area) about 2 minutes later. Not sure what that was about.

When my instructor and the other DM candidate got to the area they said that no one had gone down yet but there were divers on the surface, one of whom refused to descend to the bottom at 40' because he said he "only had 300 psi". They grabbed gear laying about including a child's mask, and went in. As they surfaced with her the EMS vehicle was arriving. I'd guess it at the 10 minute mark but as I said, my information may not be exact.

It was approximately 15 minutes after that, IIRC, that the helicopter landed.

Hope this helps.



I understand that it is early in the investigation of this incident however could we hear more about the incident. Where was her dive buddy? Was that the person yelling at the surface? What where the conditions at Whitestar--water temp (should have been around 56), viz? Do we know if this is a case of a student who just got her C card that day and then went out for her first swim without an instructor? I would also like to hear more about the topside response, especially about EMS and life flight. If I am correct EMS is stationed right around the corner.

I pray that this woman is able to make a full recovery. I really enjoy Whitestar and believe Rich is turning this property into an A+ facility. Our shop is beginning to run students through there and we are encouraging others to train there. With the increase in popularity there will be a greater chance of accidents.

[BlueFrog]

I was at the scene and assisted with rescue and first, let me say that the final report from the local PD and Park Rangers was she breathing on her own at Toledo hospital after LifeFlight evacuated her. They were looking at it as a possible heart attack since she was reported as just been heavily stressed by running tanks back from fill station then jumping in the water.

To answer some of the questions, she was 56 year old female who was certified but brand new to diving. She had two dive buddies one female and one male of equal age. Both buddies were assisted to shore after showing signs of severe shock and distress. Their report was confused and conflicting due to stress of rescue but it appears victim was panicked underwater and attempting buddy breathing but seperated from buddy and became lost. Male buddy surfaced and screamed for help where a female Divemaster was there assisting in a class (not related to victim). She relayed the cry for help and called 911. Male dive buddy could not locate victim at which point several nearby divers entered the water and began emergency procedures. Victim was located at about 40 feet and was unresponsive, brought to the surface and and in-water CPR was started. By the time dive team returned victim to shore EMS, Fire team, Park Rangers, Local PD and Whitestar staff were on site and began working on victim. As they were working victim, LifeFlight was called and landed within minutes. Quarry entry point was closed and Accident Investigation Team took control with assistance of Quarry Staff and began investigation of dive site.

Topside response was some of the best I've seen once accident was reported. As a special note, the female Divemaster said several other people saw and heard victim's buddy screaming for help but this site is commonly used for Rescue Class and therefore many thought this was a class until she was said it wasn't. Once that point was reached - EVERYONE - jumped to help. This included several Divers, Divemasters, Instructors and Instructor Trainer who arrived wearing full gear in his truck. EMS and law enforcement was on site almost immediately as they are located just outside the park.

As an "after action report" I can't think of anything Whitestar or the emergency folks could have done differently or better. I'd also like to add my personal thanks to everyone there who helped.

If any other individuals who helped are reading this, you should know that the last thing the victim's buddies said before they left for the hospital, was they really wished they could thank each of you for your help.

[jwc3]

...the final report from the local PD and Park Rangers was she breathing on her own at Toledo hospital...

Whew, that's a relief. I hope she makes a full recovery. Thanks and congratulations to all that came to her assistance.

[Patrix's Scuba]

are you indicating that the gentleman at the surface should have gone down with only 300lbs or are you just stating facts? If you are stating a fact you should have said they were low on air and could not dive. 300lbs is not even enough to start rescue mode, as assistant commander of a local Sheriff's dive team I would never ask anyone to even think of diving with less than a full tank in rescue mode.

[Thalassamania]

are you indicating that the gentleman at the surface should have gone down with only 300lbs or are you just stating facts? If you are stating a fact you should have said they were low on air and could not dive. 300lbs is not even enough to start rescue mode, as assistant commander of a local Sheriff's dive team I would never ask anyone to even think of diving with less than a full tank in rescue mode.
Not rescuing a victim from 40 feet with 300 psi (or just freediving for that matter) is likely to turn a rescue into a recovery. I'm sure glad that the chance of my needing assistance in your jurisdiction is passing small.

[d_lafleur]

As a special note, the female Divemaster said several other people saw and heard victim's buddy screaming for help but this site is commonly used for Rescue Class and therefore many thought this was a class until she was said it wasn't.

Pizza Pizza!! is what we use when doing emergency training. "Help" is not allowed unless it's real.

[Pearldiver07]

Pizza Pizza!! is what we use when doing emergency training. "Help" is not allowed unless it's real.

PADI is trying to discourage the "Pizza Pizza" call, worrying that people will not react well in a real life event. (I am going to withhold personal opinion on this position).

So my suggestion has been "Help, this is training"... etc. I figure that in a real life, they'll be yelling for help and that it isn't training. Given the number of real incidents where everyone thinks it is training at first, I figure "Help, this is real!" or something of that nature will shave off a few seconds in any event.

Hey, you can only get so real without causing too much unnecessary reaction.

[Busdiver]

PADI is trying to discourage the "Pizza Pizza" call, worrying that people will not react well in a real life event. (I am going to withhold personal opinion on this position).


The reported surface response indicates that when people realized it was an emergency they jumped into action full bore. I believe that PADI is getting this one wrong by discouraging the Pizza Pizza call. I also acknowledge that you are withholding your own personal opinion.

I believe that training centers need to post signs at entry points that state a rescue class is in progress. I do believe this is done at Whitestar but cannot verify if it was done on the day of this accident. Signs and Pizza Pizza calls will help people realize a training is in place so when a "Help" goes up there is no delay.

And why would anyone hesitate to assist with a rescue in 40 feet of water with 300 PSI? Especially in a quarry that is very bright with great viz. I too will hopefully never need rescuing in that deputy's region.

[stevejaz]

And why would anyone hesitate to assist with a rescue in 40 feet of water with 300 PSI? Especially in a quarry that is very bright with great viz. I too will hopefully never need rescuing in that deputy's region.


That was my initial reaction as well. But given that this was an older gentlemen, new diver, and a panicked diver that may have already spent untold time to try and execute a rescue unsuccessfully, it was probably the right response. Hard to say.


Now, as for the assistant's comments, heading into an unknown situation, I'd understand that comment but I'd sure as heck surface swim/snorkel trying to locate and then execute a rescue if possible with the remaining air.

[Thalassamania]

I have no problem with the newbie passing on the rescue ... my problem is with the statement by the PSD. He's way out of line.

[timegan]

Not rescuing a victim from 40 feet with 300 psi (or just freediving for that matter) is likely to turn a rescue into a recovery. I'm sure glad that the chance of my needing assistance in your jurisdiction is passing small.

Agreed 100%...I'm an air hog...40' bounce dive w 300psi..."no"..but to save a life hell ya!! It won't put you into a chamber....and as mentioned she was un responsive and wasn't going to fight or panic on rescue. Is rescue diving all about oneself or the victim?

[aoberhaus]

In all rescue operations it is the saftey of the rescuer that comes first. If the rescuer is trapped or injured then that resource is gone and 2 more crews will need to be brought in to rescue the original victem and now the rescuer that needs help. saftey considerations are made as self 1st, crew 2nd, public 3rd, and then the patient.

[TheAquaticApe]

I wasn't on the spot so I appreciate the additional information. Glad to hear that she was breathing on her own.

I wasn't suggesting anything except that those were his words. There was supposedly quite a bit of gear lying about or so I was told, but once again I was not on the scene.

[Thalassamania]

If a 40 foot free dive is outside of his capabilities or a 40 dive with 300 psi in a quarry with good visibility compromises the his safety ... he's in the wrong business. If he's unwilling to stick his neck out that tiny bit ... he's in the wrong business. I don't consider myself a PSD, but I did serve in two of the Alameda County Sheriff's Dive Units so I know a bit about it.

[timegan]

In all rescue operations it is the saftey of the rescuer that comes first. If the rescuer is trapped or injured then that resource is gone and 2 more crews will need to be brought in to rescue the original victem and now the rescuer that needs help. saftey considerations are made as self 1st, crew 2nd, public 3rd, and then the patient.

SO the rescueeee comes last in priority..(why bother?)..no offence intended, But I shall always keep that in mind.

[Busdiver]

If this woman has survived then this was the result of a quick response from a few well trained individuals who were willing to put themselves at risk for some one else. If the rescuers would have spent an additional 5 minutes loading up full tanks and full gear then this would have been a recovery effort.

[aoberhaus]

SO the rescueeee comes last in priority..(why bother?)..no offence intended, But I shall always keep that in mind.

A few years ago their was a ambulance that was involved in a accident becasue they were trying to rush to the emergency room with a patient. Their was 3 crew members in the ambulance with the patient. Care was being provided for the patient and the ambulance was in route to a local emergency room. The driver of the ambulance decided that running a stop sign on a exit ramp would save time getting to the hospital and maybe provide a better patient outcome. He procedded to go through the intersection lights and sirens but the semi truck that was comming down the road was unable to stop. The ambulance was struck and rolled in front of the semi down the road. The truck driver was injured and required transport to the same emergency room that the ambulance that he hit was going to. The crew inside the struck ambulance all perished in the wreck along with the patient that they were so desperatly trying to save. So by the driver disregarding his own saftey and the saftey of his crew and the public around him there are now 3 deceased EMT's, 1 deceaced Pt. and 1 injured truck driver. So if you forget about your saftey and the ones around you, you may end up saving no one at all.

[Thalassamania]

Kinda different than lacking the basic skills and not being willing to take a minor risk when there's a life in the balance. Thankfully the bystanders were not so Charlie Sierra.

[CDNScubaMoose]

With all due respect - I believe that the deputy in question said he would never ask anybody to do that dive. He didn't say he wouldn't do it himself. I agree with Thal that if this particular PSD wouldn't do this dive then he is in the wrong line of work, however I will give him the benefit of doubt that he was referring to asking someone else being asked to do that dive with an unknown level of training versus someone who has the appropriate training.

[LetterBoy]

Kinda different than lacking the basic skills and not being willing to take a minor risk when there's a life in the balance. Thankfully the bystanders were not so Charlie Sierra.

just a note, the driver in the story "was just running a stop sign" much like the diver would have been "just doing a quick 40ft bounce dive"

one ended horribly and the other could have ended badly as well...

[stevejaz]

just a note, the driver in the story "was just running a stop sign" much like the diver would have been "just doing a quick 40ft bounce dive"

one ended horribly and the other could have ended badly as well...

Yes, but, the example of the ambulance driver is a common everyday occurance, sirens blasting, lights flashing, they aproach stop signs and stop lights, verify no traffic and blow them. Saves countless lives, this example unfortunately ended in tragedy. If I enter any field where my job is to put my neck on the line for the welfare of others, there's an assumed risk there and I'm accepting it. Doesn't mean that I don't take necessary precautions for the welfare of the rescuee and those around me as I'd hate to jeopardize anyone elses welfare, but I do my job to the best of my ability and that would include a 40' bounce with 300PSI, heck, 40' I'm trying it without a tank, if not, I've just let myself and others down, not something I'm prepared to live with. This is a very minimal risk as to say, entering a burning building, also done on a regular basis as it comes with the job.

To each their own though, that's why some people are firefighters, cops...and others are....uhhhhh, well...NOT....there's A types and B types.;)

[marshalld3]

The diver involved in the accident on Saturday 6/6 is in the hospital. She is in critical condition, but stable.

MASK, her dive club in Dertroit is thankful to everyone who responded to the incident. Without the help of those who responded, she would not have made it to the hospital alive.

Thank you.

[timegan]

[QUOTE=marshalld3;4473767]The diver involved in the accident on Saturday 6/6 is in the hospital. She is in critical condition, but stable.

Now thats some good news! hope she heals well. Shaken but not stirred.

[TheAquaticApe]

Thanks so much for the information and please convey my best wishes to her family and friends.

[Chel]

With all due respect - I believe that the deputy in question said he would never ask anybody to do that dive. He didn't say he wouldn't do it himself. I agree with Thal that if this particular PSD wouldn't do this dive then he is in the wrong line of work, however I will give him the benefit of doubt that he was referring to asking someone else being asked to do that dive with an unknown level of training versus someone who has the appropriate training.

Hi Guys,

Though I am a long time fan of ScubaBoard, I do not post very often, but couldn't stay quiet on this one.

ScubaMoose was right on - I was there that day, on the scene a few minutes after the incident began. While Patrix said he would not ask or expect anyone else to begin a rescue with 300 psi, what he has been too humble to mention is that he in fact was one of the first to grab gear and go in to get her.

I am not just comfortable with being in his jurisdiction, I am proud to be and the reaction of him and the other people spoken about on this post was nothing short of heroic.

If there was ever a chance of a positive outcome on something like this it couldn't be greater than with the folks and the facilities at Whitestar that day.

A number of people responded to the call without hesitation or calculating the risks - something I have not seen in accident scenes in other areas of my life. I have never been able to describe diving as a sport - to me its a lifestyle, it becomes part of who you are. These people were not going to let a fellow diver die on their watch and it just demonstrates yet again to me what a fantastic community we are all part of.

Sappy? Yes, but its my two-cents for what its worth!

[Thalassamania]

ScubaMoose was right on - I was there that day, on the scene a few minutes after the incident began. While Patrix said he would not ask or expect anyone else to begin a rescue with 300 psi, what he has been too humble to mention is that he in fact was one of the first to grab gear and go in to get her.

I am not just comfortable with being in his jurisdiction, I am proud to be and the reaction of him and the other people spoken about on this post was nothing short of heroic. That's good to hear, thank you.

[DandyDon]

Wow that was an interesting discussion. I lost sight with a member of a trio on the crowded surface of Santa Rosa NM's Blue Hole once. Once I was sure he wasn't on the surface, I hollared at my usual buddy that we had to go search the 84 ft deep hole for him, but he refused as he only had 500 psi. No time to argue; I descended on my 19 cf pony alone, keeping my 500 in my back 80 for reserve; did what felt like a good search; ran the pony out on ascent and switched back to my back gas for a second safety stop. I didn't want to go back to his car in the middle of the lot and tell his crippled wife that I just didn't know, but I tried to keep "don't become a victim (too)" hot in my mind.
We discussed this incident in depth at the time on Near Misses, with critics. I don't want to sidetrack this thread with that discussion all over. I could find the thread if needed.
So I'm thinking as I read thru this, no - I wouldn't ask anyone else to do the 40 ft/300 psi search; I would in a heartbeat, but I wouldn't ask anyone else - just give me your gear fast.

My lost diver had simply left the hole while we other two were distracted, and when he heard what I'd done - he left town within minutes. Never heard from him again, nor want to. My regular buddy also left the hole while I was searching, but we have resolved that issue.

Back to the accident: Gear failure, BC inflator coming lose, and again - diver forgets basic training about dumping weights? Is that what happened...?

Glad she's with the living at least.

[stevejaz]

Hi Guys,

ScubaMoose was right on - I was there that day, on the scene a few minutes after the incident began. While Patrix said he would not ask or expect anyone else to begin a rescue with 300 psi, what he has been too humble to mention is that he in fact was one of the first to grab gear and go in to get her.




Good to hear, I'm sure most would do the same and attempt the rescue but wouldn't bestow it upon another for the same reason they'd attempt the rescue. Nobody wants to live with the thought they could have done something just as they'd also hate to live with the thought they asked someone to do something that lead to their demise. If that makes sense.:confused:

Cudos to all involved and I hope she makes a full recovery!

Steve

[Jim Lapenta]

I also know Patrix from the Ohio Council of Skin and Scuba Divers. I don't doubt for a minute that he would have went in with 300 in a tank. I'm also pretty certain that he would not advise anyone else to do it. I would have done the same but if a newly certed student of mine tried it we would have had a VERY INTERESTING discussion!

[TheScubaBOB]

SO the rescueeee comes last in priority..(why bother?)..no offence intended, But I shall always keep that in mind.

Take the Rescue Diver Course, then you'll understand.

The point isn't that the Victim isn't important. The point is that you need to determine if you can safely rescue the victim.

In this case the closest diver was a new diver with only 300psi. He has not rescue training, say he gets down to the victim, now he has to figure out how to raise her to the surface. Sure you say drop weights & valve tow her to surface but remember this is a real situation and he doesn't have any training. That 300 PSI gets gone real fast on him. Now we have 2 victims.

With a trained Rescue Diver you have to know what your limits are, they won't be the same as the new diver but you will still have limits. For example you wouldn't drop to 90 ft on 300 PSI to begin a search for a lost diver.

As much as I would do to try to help someone else in a bad spot I won't rise my ability to return home to my 3 children & wife.

[DandyDon]

In all rescue operations it is the saftey of the rescuer that comes first. If the rescuer is trapped or injured then that resource is gone and 2 more crews will need to be brought in to rescue the original victem and now the rescuer that needs help. saftey considerations are made as self 1st, crew 2nd, public 3rd, and then the patient.
I do not think he meant that rescuers should not take risks. Life is full of risks, which we try to manage safely, and scuba more so. When caca hits fan, you learn then what you will do, but it helps to think, train, prepare, within prudent parameters - and we're taught in rescue course to not let ourselves become the second victim. I imagine that most who take the course, spend the money, do the time & work, etc know that they are individuals who would sacrifice some safety to help another so want to do so better and safer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/DandyDon/Smilies/Caca.png
For example you wouldn't drop to 90 ft on 300 PSI to begin a search for a lost diver.
I'd try not to. Hopefully more good can be accomplished with other nearby resources by alerting those. If I was the only one available tho, gosh - I hope I never have to decide. I can drop faster than most tho, and have experienced a CESA, so I might - watching my SPG closely. Wouldn't ask anyone else to, no.

[Thalassamania]

http://z.hubpages.com/u/261309_f260.jpg

[dumpsterDiver]

Take the Rescue Diver Course, then you'll understand.

For example you wouldn't drop to 90 ft on 300 PSI to begin a search for a lost diver.

As much as I would do to try to help someone else in a bad spot I won't rise my ability to return home to my 3 children & wife.



I would definitely drop to 90 feet on 300 psi if I thought I knew exactly where the diver was. I would be ashamed to face my three kids if I diidn't. :shakehead::shakehead::shakehead:


Where do you people come up with this stuff?

Sounds like a couple of heros saved a life that day!

[DandyDon]

I would definitely drop to 90 feet on 300 psi if I thought I knew exactly where the diver was. I would be ashamed to face my three kids if I diidn't. :shakehead::shakehead::shakehead:
Ok, and your are tremendously more qualified than I, as well as probly twice as good on air. But yeah, the previously mentioned idea was "begin a search" not "if I thought I knew exactly where the diver was." Another difference; your suggestion would be an easier challenge to consider.

[CDNScubaMoose]

IMHO, it comes down to personal risk tolerance. I regularily do a "gut check" as to what I am comfortable doing with my abilities. Thal and a few others (myself included) had a discussion in another thread on how far down a wall we would go to catch up to a diver who was drifting deeper. The answers varied considerably but what I took away from it was that it is personal comfort level. I attempt to instill in my students not to exceed their comfort level but at the same time I can't define what their comfort level should be - I can only attempt to educate what the risks are and what skills and/or equipment should be utilized. Would I drop to 90' on 300 psi ... if I was the only diver at the site - probably, would I be successful - maybe/maybe not but nobody is going to tell me that I won't do it - that is my choice. I applaude the effort of all those involved in this rescue but I also have tremendous respect for the diver who had 300 psi in their tank and said, "no".

[TheScubaBOB]

I would definitely drop to 90 feet on 300 psi if I thought I knew exactly where the diver was. I would be ashamed to face my three kids if I diidn't. :shakehead::shakehead::shakehead:


Where do you people come up with this stuff?

Sounds like a couple of heros saved a life that day!

I agree completely, a couple of heros saved a life on that day.

But why must we villify the New Diver who didn't feel comfortable dropping to 40ft on 300 psi?

Also, you did change the parameters of the 90ft on 300psi situation. Just answer it straight. Answer the question as it was presented: on 300 psi would you drop to 90ft and START A SEARCH for a missing diver.

I will agree that if I failed to take action that was within my abilities (or even slightly exceeding them) then I would have trouble facing myself.

For example if a diver can safely do a 90ft bounce then they might see the missing diver close enough that they can either retrieve them or let the next round of divers who should be on their way out know where they saw the diver then I aplaud you for doing so.

On the other hand, I will not berate an new diver who feels like a rescue attempt at 40ft is beyond his skills because: 1) he only has 300 psi in his tank (aren't we trained that we should have 500 psi at the surface after a dive) and 2) he doesn't have any Recsue training so he has no idea of what to do even if he gets to the victim.

[jkaterenchuk]

I would definitely drop to 90 feet on 300 psi if I thought I knew exactly where the diver was. I would be ashamed to face my three kids if I diidn't. :shakehead::shakehead::shakehead:


Where do you people come up with this stuff?

Sounds like a couple of heros saved a life that day!

Agree on the Hero's but maybe you should consider how your actions might effect your own kids if you fail to come home after pulling a stunt like your suggesting.

If you think you can do it then by all means its your decision but the math does not look good for you.

You better be dam fast or be part fish. The way the calculations come out is that you would have less than 4 minutes of air to complete the entire descent/search/rescue/ascent and that is if you have a better than average RMV/SAC.

Now figure into air needed because you might be using air faster than your RMV/SAC due to the situation and for inflation and the fact that your regulator cannot deliver all the 300psi and you better swim dam quick or your doing a emergency swimming ascent. Guess you can forget a normal ascent rate since that would take too long using up almost half your time. Then if you make it to the surface and black out guess your going to sink again and drown since you would probably have nothing left even from expansion to inflate for bouyancy on the surface.

Thats the reality of the numbers but maybe it will be your lucky day.

John

[Steve50]

I agree completely, a couple of heros saved a life on that day.

1) he only has 300 psi in his tank (aren't we trained that we should have 500 psi at the surface after a dive) .


keep in mind - the 500 psi is for emergencies

[stevejaz]

Agree on the Hero's but maybe you should consider how your actions might effect your own kids if you fail to come home after pulling a stunt like your suggesting.

If you think you can do it then by all means its your decision but the math does not look good for you.

You better be dam fast or be part fish. The way the calculations come out is that you would have less than 4 minutes of air to complete the entire descent/search/rescue/ascent and that is if you have a better than average RMV/SAC.

Now figure into air needed because you might be using air faster than your RMV/SAC due to the situation and for inflation and the fact that your regulator cannot deliver all the 300psi and you better swim dam quick or your doing a emergency swimming ascent. Guess you can forget a normal ascent rate since that would take too long using up almost half your time. Then if you make it to the surface and black out guess your going to sink again and drown since you would probably have nothing left even from expansion to inflate for bouyancy on the surface.

Thats the reality of the numbers but maybe it will be your lucky day.

John


At 90' there is no doubt in my mind I wouldn't be able to make a rescue, especially after swimming untold distance to get there. However I'd sure as heck at least use up that 300PSI as constructively as possible. Maybe it's decending to 40 or 60 feet to scout or see where my air is at that point.

If it's a family member...I'm going for it. In this particular case it's irrelevent as I would have already determined I couldn't do anything and the best thing for the victim is for me to surface and get help. I'd then use my remaining air to assist or point them in the right direction.

As for not being able to inflate at the surface, I'd drop weight and orally inflate.

I really think it comes down to the fact that there are different kinds of people. Some will freeze and just stand there dumb founded. Others will not risk being harmed and I think this is a lot of people. Then there are others that will do everything in their power to save another for various reasons. Either way, most will rationalize their reasoning in the time that follows to be at peace with their decision.

I for one, know that if I don't rationally do everything in my power, I will not find peace. Depending on the circumstances "rational" decisions are to be determined. Family member would rate extremely high putting me more at risk. Another child also very high, if I'm at fault or put/encouraged somebody into their current predicament also pretty high and it's a gradual slope from there.

[TheAquaticApe]

I realize it's spurred a lot of opinions regarding what we as individuals would or would not do. In part it's my fault for not being clearer and the misunderstanding of my relaying of the facts.

I agree that Patrix was saying that he wouldn't ask anyone to attempt a rescue in 40' of water with 300 psi. He was also one of the folks who participated in the rescue effort. In fact I saw him riding over fully geared up in the back of a pickup. He's hard to miss in that orange drysuit.

Until an official report emerges we can only be thankful that the victim is still alive and grateful to those who jumped into action to enable that outcome.

[Thalassamania]

With respect to the low air pressure rescue question permit me to dip back into an old story that I posted for some perspective (use the link to read the entire story ... it begins on the previous post),

Frank, Ken and I descended into fifty feet of water over the rocky canyons off San Jose Creek. It was Ling Cod city. I shot three. They’re a delicious, but truly stupid, fish. I just stacked them up on my spear. Ken tapped me on the shoulder and slashed his hand across his throat. He pointed to Frank, pointed to me and banged his fists together. He pointed to himself and raised his thumb. I gave him an okay. Ken started up and I went after Frank.

Frank was the only University of California diver I knew (not Berkeley might I add, but Santa Barbara) who was not a perfect buddy, but he was a faculty member and a very strong swimmer. We were at about fifty feet, he was out ahead and I was having trouble gaining on him. Over the next few minutes he managed to stay about twenty feet in front of me, just at the limit of visibility. I had almost caught him when I felt a tap on my shoulder.

There’s Ken, snorkel in place, pointing to his mouth. I gave him my regulator. Two breaths, I took two, Ken took two. Ken's hand began to gyrate, with sinking stomach and rising respiration rate I recognized the motions from the previous day.

[Brown Mermaid]

The Windy City Seals also thanks everyone involved. MASK and the Seals hang together throughout the year. We will also keep our sister diver in our prayers as well as our brother diver.

[Brown Mermaid]

Regardless of whether you can drop down 90' on 300 psi or 40' on 300 psi, don't shoot the diver that knew his limits and asked for help. I'm quite sure, and I definitely know that he is beating himself up. Let's stuff our egos back in the wetsuits and pray for him too.

[Notso_Ken]

Not rescuing a victim from 40 feet with 300 psi (or just freediving for that matter) is likely to turn a rescue into a recovery. I'm sure glad that the chance of my needing assistance in your jurisdiction is passing small.

Attempting to rescue someone from the bottom in 40 - 50 feet with 30 foot vis and 300 psi is asking to turn the situation into a double rescue.

8 cu ft of air (assuming 80ft3 tank) will NOT last long at 40 - 50 feet.


Ken

[Thalassamania]

A competent "diver" could do it breath hold. I'm 59 years old, a bit overweight and mildly out of shape and I could do it easily ... what's your excuse?

[DandyDon]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/DandyDon/Smilies/CHARLIE-Sm.jpg Oh good grief...!

I guess I'd better start Ebaying.

[edm81363]

... in-water CPR was started.

For those who are NOT rescue certified, this refers to rescue breaths, NOT chest compressions.

[Thalassamania]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/DandyDon/Smilies/CHARLIE-Sm.jpg Oh good grief...!

I guess I'd better start Ebaying.Or refresh your skills?

[fisheyeview]

For those who are NOT rescue certified, this refers to rescue breaths, NOT chest compressions.


There was a time that in water CPR was taught. You would support the victim on top of you, reach around from behind, clasp your hands together into a big fist, and do chest compressions. You would then tilt the head to you to do breaths. All of this was done while trying to swim the victim to shore or boat. It did not work well, so they stopped teaching it.

[DandyDon]

Or refresh your skills?
Always good to improve my scuba skills to be sure, and I screw up my share - but I am not a skilled free diver. I did that some before scuba, not knowing about Shallow Water Blackout, and survived. For me to free dive to 40 ft in a Rescue attempt would be asking for a SWB incident. If the reg worked and tank had air, great - but who knows.

No, the best thing for me to do without scuba gear & PSIs is find gear & tank with PSIs ASAP.

[Thalassamania]

Don, it's 40 feet. Half the length of a swimming pool. Less than 15 seconds down, 15 seconds back ... SWB is not, I repeat NOT a possibility for this exposure. Every second counts, there's not time to be looking for another tank. Get over your apprehensions and your misapprehensions ... take a good free diving class, it'll improve your diving, it'll change your life, it might save someone else's.

[LeadTurn_SD]

Guys, if we knew exactly where the victim was, any of us posting in this thread could get down to 40 feet and get the victim moving up with 300lbs, many of us with 150lbs.

300lbs? We are talking just 40 feet. Not 140. I'd do my best until my tank ran dry, then swim up. And I'm nothing special as far as divers go. I'm about as unspecial a diver as you could find, and I wouldn't hesitate.

Thal, damn right Eddie would go. And did, countless times.

So would I. My name also happens to be Ed :D.

Best wishes.

[DandyDon]

Don, it's 40 feet. Half the length of a swimming pool. Less than 15 seconds down, 15 seconds back ... SWB is not, I repeat NOT a possibility for this exposure. Every second counts, there's not time to be looking for another tank. Get over your apprehensions and your misapprehensions ... take a good free diving class, it'll improve your diving, it'll change your life, it might save someone else's.
I'll try it next time we go to Santa Rosa NM, with a safety diver - and hope his ears don't lock on him again. We always have hell with his ears. No way he could drop with me, but if I can get him to wait at 20 ft and chase me up, ok.
Guys, if we knew exactly where the victim was, any of us posting in this thread could get down to 40 feet and get the victim moving up with 300lbs, many of us with 150lbs.

300lbs? We are talking just 40 feet. Not 140. I'd do my best until my tank ran dry, then swim up. And I'm nothing special as far as divers go. I'm about as unspecial a diver as you could find, and I wouldn't hesitate.

Thal, damn right Eddie would go. And did, countless times.

So would I. My name also happens to be Ed :D.

Best wishes.
Okay, I do try to keep my posting safer than my actual dive life, unless I am admitting a screw up in Near Misses - and I do know my SPG I think. You're talking about 8 cf of a 80 cf tank, if the SPG is accurate and the reg is tuned well. I always request 100 cf tanks on a trip as I know what kind of air hog I am, but all we get in Santa Rosa is 80s. On the search for a missing third buddy there once (I think I went over this some a couple of days ago in this one?), I burned thru my 19 cf pony on a 60-70 dive and circle around before heading up, saving my back gas 500 psi for reserve and had to go to it for the SS. I'd probly be sucking the last of those 8 cf on a 40 ft recovery, but I've done a real CESA from 50 once. Sure I'd do it; just wouldn't ask anyone else to.

[TheScubaBOB]

... take a good free diving class, it'll improve your diving, it'll change your life, it might save someone else's.

Thal,

I've already decided that I want to take a formal swimming class to strengthen my swimming skills. To be honest I've never really liked the idea of Skin Diving but have heard over & over that it would make me a better Scuba Diver. I assume the PADI Skin Diving Course doesn't qualify as a "good" one. Can you please recommend and agency or program that has wide avaliability (I'm in Northern Illinois, near Chicago) and is considered "Good".

I really am interested in improving myself as a Person & Diver before I begin the "Pro" Track. I don't want to be the DM or Instructor who lost a Diver becuase I just wasn't good enough to save someone who trusted me with their life.

[Thalassamania]

I wish I could, I could line you up instructors in New England and Hawaii, but Chicago? Checkout the various freediving boards and forums (google should help).

The PADI couse is, by its very nature, elementary and I think it rather doubtful that it would be taught by an accomplished freediving instructor, but you never know.

[timegan]

double post

[timegan]

I hope by now she'll have mostly recovered..ALL OUR BEST!.maybe she'll post? It seems, some think were "calling this diver out" (one who refused with 300) Not the case at all! We all can appeciate the decision. There's to make period! The thread simply morphed into a "what would you do"???. How the 90' with 300 got folded in....welllllll???/ Somtimes in life, one has to decide....can't be trained for everthing all the time. Do what you can, and know you could. But as stated many times...."try real hard not to die trying".......

[CheddarChick]

Does any one have any news on the injured Diver?

[dumpsterDiver]

Thal,

I've already decided that I want to take a formal swimming class to strengthen my swimming skills. To be honest I've never really liked the idea of Skin Diving but have heard over & over that it would make me a better Scuba Diver. I assume the PADI Skin Diving Course doesn't qualify as a "good" one. Can you please recommend and agency or program that has wide avaliability (I'm in Northern Illinois, near Chicago) and is considered "Good".

I really am interested in improving myself as a Person & Diver before I begin the "Pro" Track. I don't want to be the DM or Instructor who lost a Diver becuase I just wasn't good enough to save someone who trusted me with their life.

Not sure if this will make you a better person, but I've never heard anyone say these classes are not excellent! They are expensive and intensive, but this is taught by preofessionals. The instructor just completely smashed a few world records a couple of weeks ago.'

F.I.I. Freediving Instructors International - from the beginner to the instructor (http://www.freedivinginstructors.com/)

[DandyDon]

Okay, so who was it who told me that any decent diver should be able to free dive 40 ft alone with no issues? This new thread Avalon, Catalina - Freediver drowned (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/290531-6-20-09-avalon-catalina-freediver-drowned.html) is about a much younger, healthier, fitter and more experienced diver who went to 20 ft this weekend. Funeral arrangements pending.

[Thalassamania]

Okay, so who was it who told me that any decent diver should be able to free dive 40 ft alone with no issues? This new thread Avalon, Catalina - Freediver drowned (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/290531-6-20-09-avalon-catalina-freediver-drowned.html) is about a much younger, healthier, fitter and more experienced diver who went to 20 ft this weekend. Funeral arrangements pending.
And I stand by my original statement, we have no idea of what happened to this diver, shallow water blackout on a 20 or even 40 foot dive (slightly more than a doubling of ambient pressure) is rather unlikely for any number of reasons (not the least being the laws of physics).

[all4scuba05]

Not rescuing a victim from 40 feet with 300 psi (or just freediving for that matter) is likely to turn a rescue into a recovery. I'm sure glad that the chance of my needing assistance in your jurisdiction is passing small.


My thoughts as well. 300psi is more than enough breaths to drop down to 40'. If it goes empty, I am more than able to do a CESA. Been there, done that from 60'.

[LeadTurn_SD]

And I stand by my original statement, we have no idea of what happened to this diver, shallow water blackout on a 20 or even 40 foot dive (slightly more than a doubling of ambient pressure) is rather unlikely for any number of reasons (not the least being the laws of physics).

Agree.

I think if we get away from freediving and back to the original scenario in this thread, any discussion regarding shallow water blackout is moot. 300 lbs is enough for a dive to 40' to get a victim that may still be alive. I believe that all of us would make the attempt if confronted with the same situation.

Best wishes.

[DandyDon]

My thoughts as well. 300psi is more than enough breaths to drop down to 40'. If it goes empty, I am more than able to do a CESA. Been there, done that from 60'.
You hadn't read the rest of the posts had you...?

[bamamedic]

While I would probably make a quick descent on 300psi to rescue a diver who's location was known, I would never ask anyone to do something outside their comfort zone. 300psi is definitely not enough gas to make any kind of a search, and I could completely envision an anxious, excited diver attempting a rescue attempt to burn through that 300psi very, very quickly.

On a slightly different note, does anyone have news of that diver? How are they doing?

[timegan]

[QUOTE=bamamedic;4505922] 300psi is definitely not enough gas to make any kind of a search, and I could completely envision an anxious, excited diver attempting a rescue attempt to burn through that 300psi very, very quickly.

Thats perfectly true bamamedic......"very,very quickly" is the key point. Down, recover, and UP. Hell you got 300psi....the person on the bottom has NONE..(that is being used)...the quick part is for them more than anything.

[sabbath999]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/DandyDon/Smilies/CHARLIE-Sm.jpg Oh good grief...!

I guess I'd better start Ebaying.

OK... let me know when your camera gear is on there ;)

[sabbath999]

I would definitely drop to 90 feet on 300 psi if I thought I knew exactly where the diver was.

I couldn't do that. I do not possess the diving skills to do that, nor the SAC. I have never freedove, have only been that deep or deeper once in my life, and I simply couldn't get down to 90, spend ANY time at all there and make it back with any reasonable expectation of not getting seriously hurt or dead.

The 40 feet? Absolutely, that I would try... CESA's from 40 are something that are well within my training and ability (especially since I know going down that I will probably end up CESA on the way back up...)

I just don't have a good enough SAC to get me down to 90 and have air left to do ANYTHING but come right back up CESA.

I've never claimed to be a good diver, and know nothing of freediving, but I do know my limitations. That is outside of them, I would simply get myself hurt or dead...

Five years and a thousand dives from now, ask me again... but as a guy who has been certed less than one year and has well under 100 dives? I couldn't do it.

[DandyDon]

Whether any diver can do 40 ft on 300 psi or on breath hold is an individual call. I'd do the 300 psi dive; if I had to decide on a breath hold, I'd think looking for gear would be more rewarding use of precious seconds.

More relevant question? Where was the divers buddy? Why did s/he not stick with the diver, bring up, dump weights if needed? We are probly not going to get those answers.

My suggested Take Away Info on this is the same as on most of these threads...
Stick with your buddy, especially on descent and ascent.

If there is a problem that cannot be reasonably resolved below, grab your buddy's BC and ascend.

Don't leave your buddy unless the above fails.
My home bud and I discussed this thread at dinner last night. He likes for me to stay with him on descent as he has problems getting down; I do. He is bad on ascending without close buddy contact - more of a meet-you-on-top idea; trying to break him of that. My current nag is "I'll stay with you on descent; you stay with me on ascent and between; agreed?

[marshalld3]

While I would probably make a quick descent on 300psi to rescue a diver who's location was known, I would never ask anyone to do something outside their comfort zone. 300psi is definitely not enough gas to make any kind of a search, and I could completely envision an anxious, excited diver attempting a rescue attempt to burn through that 300psi very, very quickly.

On a slightly different note, does anyone have news of that diver? How are they doing?
The diver injured at White Star on June 6th is still recovering at Toledo Hospital. She is off of the ventilator, walking with assistance and involved in physical therapy.

I would to again thank everyone who helped with her rescue.

[bamamedic]

Thanks for the update! Glad to hear she is doing well, all things considered. Best wishes for her speedy recovery.

[DandyDon]

The diver injured at White Star on June 6th is still recovering at Toledo Hospital. She is off of the ventilator, walking with assistance and involved in physical therapy.

I would to again thank everyone who helped with her rescue.
Glad to hear, and hope for the best.

You happen to know how this happened exactly? Altho some of our tones may sound rough, we really do want to learn from these so as to prevent similar accidents.

thanks again!

[qrpc]

A bounce dive to 40' on 300psi in 30' viz might not be a problem.
But, what did the potential rescuers know before they dove?

At many sites, diver in distress on the bottom will kick up a lot of silt
reducing viz to nothing. Also, whatever caused the diver to have problems
could be a problem for the rescuer too. For example, a new diver getting
caught on some line from a wreck-reel and panicking could create a massive
entanglement hazard to go along with the low visibility and panicky rescuee.
What seems like a simple bounce dive from the surface might not be that simple.

While I applaud anyone who is willing to take the risk and go, I wouldn't second
guess someone who decides not to. They are a better judge of their capability
than I am.

I also would imagine a leader who tells his team to go with that little air may
face some significant legal liability. Luckily that issue is pretty academic. It
would be a rare case that a rescue team would show up with near empty tanks,
and by the time they use what they brought, it will have probably long since
become a recovery effort.

[LeadTurn_SD]

A bounce dive to 40' on 300psi in 30' viz might not be a problem.
But, what did the potential rescuers know before they dove?

At many sites, diver in distress on the bottom will kick up a lot of silt
reducing viz to nothing. Also, whatever caused the diver to have problems
could be a problem for the rescuer too. For example, a new diver getting
caught on some line from a wreck-reel and panicking could create a massive
entanglement hazard to go along with the low visibility and panicky rescuee.
What seems like a simple bounce dive from the surface might not be that simple.

While I applaud anyone who is willing to take the risk and go, I wouldn't second
guess someone who decides not to. They are a better judge of their capability
than I am.

I also would imagine a leader who tells his team to go with that little air may
face some significant legal liability. Luckily that issue is pretty academic. It
would be a rare case that a rescue team would show up with near empty tanks,
and by the time they use what they brought, it will have probably long since
become a recovery effort.

My understanding from reading the initial posts regarding this accident was:

The "potential rescuer" was on the surface, was calling for help, had 300 lbs, may have been the victim's buddy. This diver refused to go back down with "only" 300 lbs.
Visibility was reported as "excellent" for that site, about 30'.

I don't think anyone has faulted the diver for refusing to go back down, because he was apparently a newly certified diver.

The thread has centered on whether it was safe or not to bounce down 40' in this particular case; and based on the conditions described (40' depth, 30' viz, diver on surface apparently directly above the victim) it is not a high-risk bounce.

I do agree that if any of those conditions were different (low viz, victim's position not known, etc.) that 300 lbs would most likely not be enough.

Best wishes.

[Thalassamania]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SYOsF0heuP0/STgp0Yp1odI/AAAAAAAAA8Q/LxlOyd-r9LY/s400/Eddie_Aikau.jpg