6/20/09 - Avalon, Catalina - Freediver drowned...

[Capt.JimDavis]

Not much of info as of now but it was a young man who came to island for this weekend with a group of his friends for a wedding party.
Today during daytime we heard the sirens going to the Casino point which whenever I see flashing lights heading towards that point makes me sick to my stomach.
Later I heard from a few other divers that this young man were freediving and he didn't look good when they took him out to the ambulance.

Whoever he may be, please keep this young man in your prayers.

[fdog]

Freediving looks simple...it's just a mask, snorkel and fins. So most folks treat it as an equally simple, trivial subset of skills in the sport of diving.

Freediving is even more buddy-centric than scuba diving. There's a lot to look out for, and many procedures designed to prevent this tragedy. This hidden complexity makes a freediving class is an excellent investment for those that are considering more than a simple snorkel in a couple of feet of water.

Without more information it's tough to say what happened here; "shallow water blackout" is a standard, canned answer, just like "running out of oxygen" is for initial reports of a scuba fatality. Neither really addresses what may have been the root causes.

He could have also had a white out, or, deep water blackout; until something more definitive emerges, it's speculation.


All the best, James

[SVThuh]

Im pretty sure that was my friend Tony. Was he a smaller, skinny, mid-20's Asian guy? If so, he unfortunately did not make it. Apparently he had finished his dive and was out retrieving his forgotten dive buoy when he had his accident.

I myself am still searching for details on this incident. He was a long time friend and dive buddy of mine. We went to high-school and I am still in disbelief over what happened.

[H2Andy]

i am very sorry to hear this

[DandyDon]

Im pretty sure that was my friend Tony. Was he a smaller, skinny, mid-20's Asian guy? If so, he unfortunately did not make it. Apparently he had finished his dive and was out retrieving his forgotten dive buoy when he had his accident.

I myself am still searching for details on this incident. He was a long time friend and dive buddy of mine. We went to high-school and I am still in disbelief over what happened.
Very unfortunate. The purpose of this particular forum is look at accidents objectively, while with respect, so we can try to prevent similar ones. You are welcome to post more here on SB of course, and while condolences are discouraged here to prevent confusion, perhaps you'd like to start a new, condolences thread on our Passings forum at this link (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/passings/)...?

Of course, if you can add any info, we would appreciate that - and it may help others.

I used to free dive some before Scuba, holding my breath as long as I could, having never heard of Shallow Water Blackout or other risks. My only concern was being able to swim back in and at least I always wore a snorkel vest. Still do at times, maybe just on a moving boat or snorkeling, bought a few more for my daughter's family.

[MaxBottomtime]

From the victim's family;
On Saturday, June 20, 2009, a 28 Year old, experienced SCUBA diver from Torrance CA died while attempting to retrieve an anchored dive float in about 20 feet of water. He was healthy and physically fit.

He had been SCUBA Diving with friends and family, and returned to the water to retrieve their float without his SCUBA gear, but wearing a weight belt due to his wetsuit.

When he was not seen for a few minutes, a fellow diver went to look for him, and found him under water. He was brought to shore where efforts to revive him for over an hour were ultimately unsuccessful.

[DandyDon]

Damn! Time and time again we read about the body found with weight belt on. Damn!

[SVThuh]

Tony was very experienced. Had well over 2k dives under his belt without incident. The only reason why I can imagine that he still had the belt on was due to a blackout. No way to tell they are coming and when they hit it is too late.

Thank you guys for the info. I will be placing a post sometime soon in the condolences section for him.

[DocIndyDiver]

No fins?

[Rick Inman]

Damn! Time and time again we read about the body found with weight belt on. Damn!
Well, more than that, he was by himself.

I know he wasn't on scuba at the time, but still it is interesting to note, from the July/August Alert Diver Magazine published by Divers Alert Network (DAN). There is an interesting article on page 68 called Identifying Problems – Common Causes of Open-Circuit Diving Fatalities. In the article, it says, “…57% of divers who died began their dive with an assigned buddy but were separated prior to death.”

[DandyDon]

Very experienced diver, thinks "I'm just going to get the buoy, don't need help" - too easy to imagine.

[stevejaz]

While this is certainly no cancellation and I am very sorry to hear about this I will say that the sharing of this incident is certainly educational.

I too never would have even thought twice about free diving to 20' to retrieve something and had never heard of shallow water blackouts.

"Snorkeling" with observers on shore, I don't think most people would consider that a high risk situation.

Thank you for sharing!

All my best,
Steve

[DandyDon]

I know, Steve. A very informed & experienced diver told me recently on another Accident thread here that anyone should be able to free dive alone to 40 ft alone, no problem. Can't believe everything you read, even from the best. Tony was much younger, fitter and more experienced than I it seems. Damn!

[Hawkeye5447]

I was there when this happened. I was on the steps trying to tech my girlfriend how to freedive. We didnt have wetsuits so it took a little while to get used to the water. Tony and his sister came out just as we were going in. I remember seeing Tony go out with just his snorkel and his weight belt on and i was trying to figure out why you would do that. While getting used to the water i noticed that i hadnt seen him come back to the steps and i didnt see him around. i didnt even know the guy, but i thought it was weird. We i went in only a few feet from the steps and a large school of fish spooked me and i went back to my girl on the steps. She said that the water was just too cold to get in so went in and sat on the jetty. After we sat down i heard a guy say "Call 911". Then he said a guy was on the bottom and again said call 911. I left my gear and ran back to the steps and down the stairs as they were bringing him in. I helped carry him up to the platform and placed him down while his sister and another woman performed CPR until the paramedics arrived. I have been certified to perform CPR for 10 years now and i just felt helpless waiting for someone to say that they needed rest so i could help. I remember that i was worried about him and though that if i had just swam out 10 more feet that i could have spotted him and it could have made a difference. My heart does go out to his family and i wish that there was more that i could and could have done. :(

[DandyDon]

Hi Hawkeye,

If you were not also taught about Critical Incident Stress, or if you don't remember (I think it was in my Padi rescue training, not in the CPR portion?), it is real - don't buy into it. You and the others did all you could, you were hope for someone who otherwsie had none, and not your fault at all that one was lost. Anyone who was there should consider counseling on this before it can take a toll.

I taught my daughter's family how to snorkel & free dive once before we went out to swim with manatees. We trained in a swimming pool, all wore snorkel vests at all times, and I stressed one minute maximums and buddy diving! That was years ago and I am still nagging them about wearing those, correctly mounted, etc. My 15 yo grandson thinks it's fine just ride a raft, and I used to too; I survived and I hope he does.

[stevejaz]

Hawkeye,

I feel very bad for you having gone through this and hope you're able to view it more constructively later. I've gone through something kind of similar and it made a huge impression on me but I also learned from it, my hope is you'll do the same.

My question is for anyone who may be able to answer it.

Is this something that is brought on by oxygen deprevation after exercise? Say somebody swimming fairly quickly to retrieve a bouy and not wanting to hold their party up, then making a dive thus holding their breath for a period of time?

I keep thinking of that trick that kids would do by hyperventilating and then standing up and having someone place them in a bear hug and passing out. Same thing?

[Thalassamania]

I know, Steve. A very informed & experienced diver told me recently on another Accident thread here that anyone should be able to free dive alone to 40 ft alone, no problem. Can't believe everything you read, even from the best. Tony was much younger, fitter and more experienced than I it seems. Damn!
And I stand by my original statement, we have no idea of what happened to this diver, shallow water blackout on a 20 or even 40 foot dive (slightly more than a doubling of ambient pressure) is rather unlikely for any number of reasons (not the least being the laws of physics).

[fdog]

After re-reading Maxbottomtimes' report, the first thing that leaps to mind is a simple float retrieval doesn't even need a freedive - just swim out and pull up the weight. Unless it was augered into the bottom.

Also, without knowing the gentleman's typical configuration - steel tanks vs aluminum - it's hard to say, but a typical weight belt for scuba and aluminum tanks exceeds the buoyancy of the suit alone.


All the best, James

[Teamcasa]

First, My condolences to his family and friends.

Having dived the park many times I can only think that since his float was only a few feet from the steps (where most instructors place them) he may have felt comfortable dropping in to unclip it from one of a few anchor points. (around 25' -28' deep) Who knows what happened after he descended.

The point is, what can we learn from this tragic situation?
How can we prevent this in the future?
Is free diving to retrieve a float at that depth safe after SCUBA diving?

[DandyDon]

I keep thinking of that trick that kids would do by hyperventilating and then standing up and having someone place them in a bear hug and passing out. Same thing?
When I was a kid, I'd just hyperventilate then hold my breath to pass out. All it took, and I did it sitting down. Only a well trained free diver should consider taking more than 2 or 3 deep, quick breaths before descending on breath hold. I'm not qualified to explain the osmosis of shallow water blackout, but it's easy to find and read on.

Otherwise, what happened to Tony should not have. I dunno...?

[Thalassamania]

Don,

Clearly you are, the best judge of your own limitations ... so permit me to help you out:

During descent:


Lung volume decreases due to chest compression, resulting in increased lung total pressure, and of course increased PO2, PCO2 and PN2.
In the lung, after hyperventilation, there is a reduced PCO2. E. g., if lung volume is reduced to one-half by descent to 33 feet, lung PO2 is doubled, lung PCO2 increases initially, but is followed by lowered PCO2 due to the reversed gradient.
The blood reacts by developing a respiratory alkalosis (more CO2).
Carotid body chemoreceptors cause a slow-down of the heart and permit longer breath holding.
Despite rapid O2 usage, the arterial PCO2 drops and a strong desire to breathe is not stimulated until sufficient oxyen is used up that the PCO2 rises sufficiently.
While at depth, increased lung PO2 (due to increased ambient pressure) provides a favorable gradient for O2 transfer from the lung to blood, occurring more rapidly than if the diver were on the surface.
Alveolar PCO2 increases with compression, CO2 does not leave the blood to enter the lung and arterial CO2 rises rapidly (especially with exercise) initially, then the tissues store CO2.

On Ascent:

As the lung re-expands, the PCO2 becomes elevated as more diffuses into the lung, but due to the drop in ambient pressure there is a concomitant dramatic drop in the PO2.
In the blood the PCO2 goes up with the depth of the dive and the amount of exercise. Deep dives drive more CO2 from the lungs into the tissues and increases the problem.
When the need to breathe point is reached , the chemoreceptors are stimulated by CO2, and there is a strong dsesire to take a breath. Low O2 also can cause this.
In the brain: CO2 goes up and makes you want to breathe; Vasodilation increases O2 consumption;PO2 drops with the drop in ambient pressure and if PO2 drops enough, unconsciousness occurs.
On ascent the lungs re-expand; this decreases the diffusion gradient for oxygen. Shallower depths can cause this gradient to approach zero, and the diver goes out like a light due to extreme hypoxia, possibly before the diver reaches the surface.

[stevejaz]

Don,

Clearly you are, the best judge of your own limitations ... so permit me to help you out:

During descent:


Lung volume decreases due to chest compression, resulting in increased lung total pressure, and of course increased PO2, PCO2 and PN2.
In the lung, after hyperventilation, there is a reduced PCO2. E. g., if lung volume is reduced to one-half by descent to 33 feet, lung PO2 is doubled, lung PCO2 increases initially, but is followed by lowered PCO2 due to the reversed gradient.
The blood reacts by developing a respiratory alkalosis (more CO2).
Carotid body chemoreceptors cause a slow-down of the heart and permit longer breath holding.
Despite rapid O2 usage, the arterial PCO2 drops and a strong desire to breathe is not stimulated until sufficient oxyen is used up that the PCO2 rises sufficiently.
While at depth, increased lung PO2 (due to increased ambient pressure) provides a favorable gradient for O2 transfer from the lung to blood, occurring more rapidly than if the diver were on the surface.
Alveolar PCO2 increases with compression, CO2 does not leave the blood to enter the lung and arterial CO2 rises rapidly (especially with exercise) initially, then the tissues store CO2.

On Ascent:

As the lung re-expands, the PCO2 becomes elevated as more diffuses into the lung, but due to the drop in ambient pressure there is a concomitant dramatic drop in the PO2.
In the blood the PCO2 goes up with the depth of the dive and the amount of exercise. Deep dives drive more CO2 from the lungs into the tissues and increases the problem.
When the need to breathe point is reached , the chemoreceptors are stimulated by CO2, and there is a strong dsesire to take a breath. Low O2 also can cause this.
In the brain: CO2 goes up and makes you want to breathe; Vasodilation increases O2 consumption;PO2 drops with the drop in ambient pressure and if PO2 drops enough, unconsciousness occurs.
On ascent the lungs re-expand; this decreases the diffusion gradient for oxygen. Shallower depths can cause this gradient to approach zero, and the diver goes out like a light due to extreme hypoxia, possibly before the diver reaches the surface.


That was a bit more than I was expecting but certainly educational although I had to read it 3 times to begin to understand it:shakehead:

So basically it's low level carbon dioxide poisoning in the tissues that the body reacts to and puts you out in order to maintain brain function and use what little O2 is remaining to sustain life with exception to the fact that this environment is not condusive to this?

[Anti-Hero]

I wonder since this person had been scuba diving prior to the accident, if bubble pumping might have been in play here.

If the diver had sufficient N2 loading from the dive(s) prior, he could have compressed micro bubbles upon the freedive decent leading to a venous gas embolism when he rapidly surfaced.

Just a thought...

Sad story and I feel for his loved ones.

[Thalassamania]

No. Basically you drop the CO2 and descend, oxygen P02 goes up with the ambient pressure rise. You stay there and raise CO2 as you use up oxygen. As you ascend the ambient pressure drops and as a result so does the PO2. If the PO2 was low enough at the start of your ascent it's drop resulting from the rop in ambient can leave you with too low a PO2 to remain conscious before you even ger to the surface.
I wonder since this person had been scuba diving prior to the accident, if bubble pumping might have been in play here.

If the diver had sufficient N2 loading from the dive(s) prior, he could have compressed micro bubbles upon the freedive ascent leading to a venous gas embolism when he rapidly surfaced.

Just a thought...

Sad story and I feel for his loved ones.A good insight.

[blue steal]

Thalassamania you sound like an MD/PhD in Pulmonology. Great description.
I am saddened to hear of these things. My condolenses to the family.
I often snorkel solo around palos verdes and laguna beach and this just makes me sad.

[SVThuh]

I just got word from his family that the autopsy concluded that cause of death was drowning due to shallow water blackout. No signs of embolism or any other common dive related injuries.

Thank you all for your thoughts. I will pass them on to his family. Tony will be missed.

[Thalassamania]

I'd be interested in knowing how the coroner arrived at that finding. What sign is there at autopsy that indicates SWB?

While it is possible to suffer SWB in rather shallow dives, they have to be rather long; it is more frequently seen in free dives that are below 60 feet and outside of two minutes.

[SVThuh]

Maybe a combination of blood gas content and other indications of drowning.

[Thalassamania]

Maybe - but no cigar.

[DandyDon]

I wonder since this person had been scuba diving prior to the accident, if bubble pumping might have been in play here.

If the diver had sufficient N2 loading from the dive(s) prior, he could have compressed micro bubbles upon the freedive decent leading to a venous gas embolism when he rapidly surfaced.

Just a thought...

Sad story and I feel for his loved ones.
I don't think we can know here, but it is too little known it seems that free diving after scuba is an increased risk to DCS. Seen some do it. I asked a DM working a liveaboard about it and he had to think about it - then agreed.
I just got word from his family that the autopsy concluded that cause of death was drowning due to shallow water blackout. No signs of embolism or any other common dive related injuries.

Thank you all for your thoughts. I will pass them on to his family. Tony will be missed.
Thank you very much. Please do accept that our discussions here are only intended to help protect others from similar problems, and condolences are not allowed in this forum according to rules so as to avoid undue confusions - but we all have them in our hearts, and some still offer them here even tho it's discouraged.

[promocop]

How in god's name does this happen? Someone please tell me. The LA County Coroner just did a presentation at ECO and he stated that the Avalon Dive Park has had more then its fair share of accidents. Coindicnece or just plain bad luck? A big tragedy.

[drbill]

I was at the park that day but had left to go home before the incident. I had spoken with Tony's sister and the bride-to-be prior to the incident. They were setting up their gear next to the Dr. Bill Mobile. I couldn't imagine what the odd float (an inflatable human male dressed up as a pirate with bandana on his head and swim suit) was for so I asked them. Tony's sister said it was to celebrate the upcoming wedding of the other girl I spoke with. Once they explained that, I thought it was pretty funny and filmed the float out in the water.

My understanding was that Tony was an experienced diver. He had been SCUBA diving prior to going out without his SCUBA kit to simply retrieve the float which was in relatively shallow water (20-25') near the shore. I wouldn't have thought twice about going out to retrieve it myself, although I would have been on SCUBA had I done so. The dive park had a number of divers present and I would not have considered it in the least bit foolish to attempt what Tony attempted given his apparent experience and youth.

I spoke to the individuals, mostly from CDS, who retrieved Tony's body. They mentioned they thought he had made several attempts to retrieve the float's anchor line. He may not have rested sufficiently at the surface between these attempts and had residual CO-2 in his lungs. That is somewhat speculative however.

Shallow water blackout seemed to be the most logical explanation, although I wondered if there was another underlying medical issue that may have contributed to it. I think the autopsy results cleared that up. Shallow water blackout is one reason I no longer free dive. Over the years I've seen a few free divers leave for the great dive site in the sky because of it.

SVThuh, please give Tony's sister my condolences. I heard afterwards she is a doctor and actually worked with the paramedics to try to revive Tony. This must have been a horrible experience for her, the family and the friends who were gathered for what should have been a joyous occasion.

[Ken Kurtis]

I just got word from his family that the autopsy concluded . . .

As some of you who read this forum already know, I am a Forecnsic Consutlant for the Los Anegles County Coroner in scuba fatalties. Even this tehcnically isn't a scuba death (since it occured during a free-dive following a scuba dive), I've been in touch with the Coroner and we dicussed this a bit.

After seeing SVThuh's post, I called in and double-checked and would like to clarify a few things:

1. The autopsy has NOT been done. It will be done Tuesday morning (6/23).

2. Obviously, no conclusions have been reached by the Coroner since the autopsy hasn't been done.

3. In the course of the overall investigation, the Coroner has talked with the family and some of the possible causes of death were discussed. This may be where "the autopsy concluded" impression came from.

4. Although the autopsy will be conducted tomorrow, it is likely to be 6-8 weeks until an official Cause of Death (COD) is determined. This is to allow time for toxicology reports, equipment testing (if we do any - looks doubtful given the circumstances as known now), and other things.

5. There is no test to establish, with medical certainty, Shallow-Water Blackout as a cause of death. While itt may be a possibility, that conclusion would more likely come form bystander and eyewitness intrviews. Given that no one seems to have actually witnessed when he went unconscious, my educated layman's opinion is that a conclusion of SWB is unlikely. (To be clear, this doesn't mean it couldn't have happened, just that it couldn't be stated with enough medical certainty to be included in the report.)

6. Drowning is a diagnosis of exclusion. In other words, you rule everything else out (heart attack, seizure, etc.) and you're left with drowning as the only other possibility.

7. Water in the lungs doesn't mean you drowned. (It could have entered post-mortem.) Absence of water in the lungs doesn't mean you didn't drown (known as "dry drowning").

I hope that helps clear things up a bit. I'm happy to answer any questions I can. And if you have any first-hand information about this accident, please feel free to contact me directly and I'll put you in touch with the Coroner's Investigator handling this case.

- Ken

[drbill]

How in god's name does this happen? Someone please tell me. The LA County Coroner just did a presentation at ECO and he stated that the Avalon Dive Park has had more then its fair share of accidents. Coindicnece or just plain bad luck? A big tragedy.

My response has no relation to this particular incident, but...

The dive park is considered a very safe place for the training of OW students and for refreshing one's skills if they have not been diving for a while. I have seen as many as 450 divers there on a single day. I think the fact that there is probably a large percentage of divers at the park with little to no experience (or recent experience) diving contributes to the number of deaths.

A number of the reported deaths that I've heard final autopsies on were not in good shape and the stress of doing something outside their normal experience may add increased stress that triggers health problems that might have surfaced under other conditions as well. For this reason I prefer not to list heart attacks and other health-related deaths as SCUBA-related deaths. Ken Kurtis has commented in the past that there are not as many SCUBA-related deaths there as people assume (including me).

I believe there have only been two fatalities in the dive park this year. Of course given the economy, it was a slow winter (and summer is picking up but not at too rapid a pace).

[drbill]

I see Ken Kurtis was writing his informative post at the same time I was writing mine. Thanks for your very informed read on this, Ken.

[Thalassamania]

Bubble pumping is a well known and documented phenomena. I've never know it to cause death - but

A careful autopsy can find the gas bubbles in the cranial circulation. As far as I know (I used to prep bodies for the coroner, but that was a while ago) SWB is not detectable on autopsy but must be inferred.

Thanks Ken.

[Anti-Hero]

Bubble pumping is a well known and documented phenomena. I've never know it to cause death - but

A careful autopsy can find the gas bubbles in the cranial circulation. As far as I know (I used to prep bodies for the coroner, but that was a while ago) SWB is not detectable on autopsy but must be inferred.

Thanks Ken.

I've never heard of BP being the direct cause of death either, but with symptoms including loss of consciousness, paralysis, and other stroke-like manifestations, it seems plausible that such a physical impairment coupled with presumably negative buoyancy could have been that unfortunate chain of events . . .

It just seems odd, given your explanation of the mechanisms of SWB, that a young, fit individual with an average or above average cardiopulmonary fitness would suffer such a malady in ~25 ft. of water without being down for an exceptional amount of time.

[Thalassamania]

FDog PMed me:
... I'm curious - this seems to be the opposite of what I was taught quite a few years ago, what is presently listed in the literature, and is accepted by the competitive freediving community?

Just curious where you're coming from.
I replied:
I just did a web search and there is some confusion of terms. What I posted is rather straight from the diving medicine community, but ... it appears that some of the free diving types are now splitting into shallow water blackout and deep water blackout as two separate phenomena and are applying the term deep water blackout to the think that the Medicos are still calling shallow water blackout.

After I do a bit more reading I'll try and iron this one definitively out in the thread. Thanks for the heads up.
I done a bit more checking and it does seem that the free diving community does make a distinction, rather well covered in wiki:

Shallow water blackout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallow_water_blackout)

[DandyDon]

Ok, both are shallow water blackouts, one after a deeper dive, one after a shallower dive - with other differences.

[mortedr]

First of all, I'm not a SCUBA diver, I'm just a person who found this board searching for information of a friend of myself and my wife. Unfortunately, Tony was our friend and remarkably close considering the short time we'd known him.

I wanted to post to thank you all for the information and insight you have provided to those of us with no experience in these matters make some kind of sense of this. My wife and I both thank you for your kind words directed to his family and friends. He will be sorely missed.

In closing, please please continue to do this. You all have made things more sensible to us and in some cases that counts more than most can imagine. I can't speak for his family, but I speak for us in saying again thank you, and keep up the good work.

[Hawkeye5447]

I know i did what i could to help. I always seem to be around when something like this goes down. The part that i always hate to see is the family so sad when they are there and the fact that people just swarm the area and watch someones lifeless body. Its a shame and it has always irritated me. It sucks that Tony was not able to come back from this tradgedy and hopefully some people might learn from this that you should always have a buddy dive with you.

[Teamcasa]

I know i did what i could to help. I always seem to be around when something like this goes down. The part that i always hate to see is the family so sad when they are there and the fact that people just swarm the area and watch someones lifeless body. Its a shame and it has always irritated me. It sucks that Tony was not able to come back from this tradgedy and hopefully some people might learn from this that you should always have a buddy dive with you.

What have we learned from this tragic loss of life?
Don't dive alone, even when free diving?
Maybe, but certainly the case could be made that after Scuba diving, even a shallow free dive can be deadly.
Have someone else free dive to retrieve the float (or other missing item) in shallow water or wait long enough to off-gas before doing it yourself.

I see this happen on a regular basis in the Dive park (retrieving an instructors float) and hope the other instructors pay heed.

[DandyDon]

I know i did what i could to help. I always seem to be around when something like this goes down. The part that i always hate to see is the family so sad when they are there and the fact that people just swarm the area and watch someones lifeless body. Its a shame and it has always irritated me. It sucks that Tony was not able to come back from this tradgedy and hopefully some people might learn from this that you should always have a buddy dive with you.
Sadly most of the deaths discussed here are divers who died alone, and probly wouldn't have if they had maintained their buddy pair relationship. I just posted about this in another thread here, and the discussion I had with my home bud about this. That thread had involved some discussion about free diving to rescue a down diver, and I ended up with the same as usual Take-Away: Descend together, Swim together; Ascend together - period.

Yeah I know a lot of divers, pros, others, including me, who think they/we are qualified to dive alone. Screw that. It's how most deaths occur.

[Rick Murchison]

Sadly most of the deaths discussed here are divers who died alone, and probly wouldn't have if they had maintained their buddy pair relationship. When you are swimming, diving or freediving alone, you accept the risk of that any debilitating event will be fatal by drowning. If you have a buddy it may or may not be.
Mama's advice applies: "Never swim alone."
One of these days I may take it... if I live long enough.
Rick

[fdog]

What have we learned from this tragic loss of life?
Don't dive alone, even when free diving?
Maybe, but certainly the case could be made that after Scuba diving, even a shallow free dive can be deadly.
Have someone else free dive to retrieve the float (or other missing item) in shallow water or wait long enough to off-gas before doing it yourself.

I see this happen on a regular basis in the Dive park (retrieving an instructors float) and hope the other instructors pay heed.
Freediving is such a simple sport - none of the complicated tank and regulator things - that there is indeed a great temptation to freedive alone. The feeling usually is "Without the complexity, what can go wrong?"

So much in freediving is the exact opposite from scuba... except for the buddy team.

If anything, freediving is far and away more buddy-dependent than scuba.



http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/data/500/RescueCorrect2.jpghttp://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/data/500/RescueFromDepth2.jpg
Students in a freediving class practice rescues


For those interested in doing more than a 3' deep reef snorkel, I cannot recommend a freediving class enough - the environment is that different from scuba.


All the best, James



All the best, James

[Chuck Tribolet]

I don't think we can know here, but it is too little known it seems that free diving after scuba is an increased risk to DCS. Seen some do it. I asked a DM working a liveaboard about it and he had to think about it - then agreed.


DCS very rarely makes you unconscious on the bottom. And when
it does, it was technical diving. I don't remember the depth profile
at the Catalina park, but it's WELL within recreational limits.

I vote for shallow water blackout.

[Anti-Hero]

From what I remember of the dive park you can go from 20ft to 100ft depth with just a few fin kicks.

[Rick Murchison]

...I vote for shallow water blackout.Whether the debilitating event was SWB or not may be of academic interest, but from a mishap prevention perspective it matters little, if at all. Debilitating events can happen under the most benign circumstances, like a little breathhold dive to 20' to free a float. If you have one, and you're alone in water, you're dead. If you have a competent companion (or someone just happens to be there) then you may have a chance at life.
I lost a good friend in six feet of water... he was cleaning out his fish pond. We don't know what happened, as no one was there to pull him out before he drowned, and he's dead. The autopsy could only say drowning.
Whatever other lessons we may eventually learn from this unfortunate mishap, the overriding one remains - "Don't swim alone."
Rick

[promocop]

The LA Coroner is doing an autopsy now and toxicology tests. Results in two weeks

[DandyDon]

When you are swimming, diving or freediving alone, you accept the risk of that any debilitating event will be fatal by drowning. If you have a buddy it may or may not be.
Mama's advice applies: "Never swim alone."
One of these days I may take it... if I live long enough.
Rick
You're in a different class than most Recreational divers. :eyebrow:
DCS very rarely makes you unconscious on the bottom. And when
it does, it was technical diving. I don't remember the depth profile
at the Catalina park, but it's WELL within recreational limits.

I vote for shallow water blackout.
Yeah, didn't mean to muddle the water there. There is still a danger, too often not realized by Rec divers. I forgot for a while in another discussion.
From what I remember of the dive park you can go from 20ft to 100ft depth with just a few fin kicks.
YOU can maybe. I don't know, I haven't free dived since I started Scuba, didn't have a depth gauge before, but I doubt I ever got half that deep and I was always better than any of the other tourists snorkeling. You can get down faster if you're weighted, but getting back up is one of my priorities too. And I don't guess I am going to test my limits because any time I get close to clear water, I scuba - which I won't mix with free diving.
Whether the debilitating event was SWB or not may be of academic interest, but from a mishap prevention perspective it matters little, if at all. Debilitating events can happen under the most benign circumstances, like a little breathhold dive to 20' to free a float. If you have one, and you're alone in water, you're dead. If you have a competent companion (or someone just happens to be there) then you may have a chance at life.
I lost a good friend in six feet of water... he was cleaning out his fish pond. We don't know what happened, as no one was there to pull him out before he drowned, and he's dead. The autopsy could only say drowning.
Whatever other lessons we may eventually learn from this unfortunate mishap, the overriding one remains - "Don't swim alone."
Rick
Thanks

[Jeff Toorish]

I've read in this thread that the victim had been scuba diving, and then did a free dive to retrieve the float anchor. If that is true, it is breaking one of the cardinal rules of free diving: never free dive after diving on scuba.

After having read this thread, I'm not sure that is accurate information (that he was free diving subsequent to scuba) but if it is, it may have been a factor. Obviously we don't know yet, but based on what I've read here it is a possibility.

Jeff

[drbill]

The depth profile in the park does go from 0 to about 100 fsw, but Tony was no where near any of the deep portions of the park. Unless the float moved significantly after I left the park, he was in about 20-25 ft of water.

I have not done a lot of free diving since the '82-84 El Nino event. I consider it more dangerous than SCUBA for me (I am not trained in free diving techniques).

The frequent mention of solo diving as a "no no" is not entirely warranted in the park. I probably have some 1,200 solo dives in the park and the highest frequency of incidents (20X higher) was while I was diving with buddies. However, in this particular case, Tony would probably be alive today if he had a buddy with him.

Let's try to focus on Tony's family and friends. I'm glad to hear that some of the discussion on this thread has helped some of them understand the issues. Again, my condolences are with them.

[bsee65]

...

The frequent mention of solo diving as a "no no" is not entirely warranted in the park. I probably have some 1,200 solo dives in the park and the highest frequency of incidents (20X higher) was while I was diving with buddies. However, in this particular case, Tony would probably be alive today if he had a buddy with him.

Let's try to focus on Tony's family and friends. I'm glad to hear that some of the discussion on this thread has helped some of them understand the issues. Again, my condolences are with them.

You seem to be a proponent of solo diving, at least for those "qualified" to do so, and we should all read your post with that in mind. Personally, I have to believe that having some sort of incident with a buddy nearby is going to give you an additional chance to survive above the chance of having an incident while you are solo. With the possible exception of an incompetent buddy causing you harm during an incident, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't be just a little safer with one than without. For those who believe in the buddy system, diving solo would be a "no no" just about everywhere.

If anyone might be on the fence about whether or not to dive solo, then the best advice is not to do it. I wouldn't want someone who is less qualified than you to read your post and then decide that the park is a safe place to dive solo without all the other preparation that goes into it. I also believe that, more dangerous than going solo, diving beyond ones ability has to be at the top of the list as a cause of accidents. Someone who dives solo without understanding all the risks and having solid redundant gear is definitely beyond their ability. If you're not absolutely sure you're ready to do it, then don't.

[Rick Murchison]

The frequent mention of solo diving as a "no no" is not entirely warranted in the park. Let me be clear... I am not wagging a finger or in any other way saying "no" to solo diving, swimming, snorkeling or freediving. What I am saying is that there is the additional risk of near-certain death should one suffer some debilitating event while solo in the water. As long as one is willing to accept that additional risk, then go right ahead and do water things by yourself. One who denies that solo water activities carry this additional risk is living in a fantasy world.
From a mishap prevention perspective, one of the easiest ways - I'm convinced the easiest way - to increase your chances of surviving a debilitating event in the water is to have a competent buddy.
Rick

[Anti-Hero]

YOU can maybe. I don't know, I haven't free dived since I started Scuba, didn't have a depth gauge before, but I doubt I ever got half that deep and I was always better than any of the other tourists snorkeling. You can get down faster if you're weighted, but getting back up is one of my priorities too. And I don't guess I am going to test my limits because any time I get close to clear water, I scuba - which I won't mix with free diving.

Thanks

Whoa there buddy - I think you misunderstood me. The DEPTH PROFILE of the dive park is such, that with a few fin kicks [on the surface] you can be OVER 100 ft. of water. I was in no way saying I could freedive to 100 fsw in a few fin kicks.

[DandyDon]

The frequent mention of solo diving as a "no no" is not entirely warranted in the park. I probably have some 1,200 solo dives in the park and the highest frequency of incidents (20X higher) was while I was diving with buddies. However, in this particular case, Tony would probably be alive today if he had a buddy with him.
Yes, you're a certainly more experienced diver than the vast majority of Rec divers, and I remember how well you handled your 70 CESA without pony - much better than my 50 footer. I'm sure you're much better than the vast majority of Rec divers at preventing problems and self rescue alike. Your personal example doesn't apply to most of us, I don't think.

But didn't someone say Tony has 2,000 dives? Was he a pro? I've seen my Tech Inst pull some stunts where he needed a buddy, once to stop him but he survived.
Whoa there buddy - I think you misunderstood me. The DEPTH PROFILE of the dive park is such, that with a few fin kicks [on the surface] you can be OVER 100 ft. of water. I was in no way saying I could freedive to 100 fsw in a few fin kicks.
Ah ha, OKAY! Gotcha - thanks!

[Ken Kurtis]

The DEPTH PROFILE of the dive park is such, that with a few fin kicks [on the surface] you can be OVER 100 ft. of water.

One of the things I feel strongly abut when we're talking about accidents and what we can learn from them is that we state things correctly. Not to pick on him, but while the gist of Anti-Hero's statement is correct (it's easy to get deep in the park), the specifics are not.

And lest anyone be getting a wrong mental picture of what happened with this accident, especially those who might not be familiar with the Park, I thought I'd take a moment to give you some of the distances I personally measured for an investigation of a fatality that occurred at the Park in 2006.

The Avalon UW Park is pretty much a rectangle (technically, I think it's more a parallelogram but you get the idea). There are stairs on the shore side pretty much in the middle of that side. There are four buoys along the back end boundary of the Park, which is marked by a floating line and these big buoys. Depth at that point (depending on the tide) is roughly 70 feet.

If you are standing at the base of the steps, facing the ocean, here are the distances I measured (with a laser rangefinder):

Steps to middle back buoy - 240 feet
Steps to the left corner buoy (towards the Valiant) - 360 feet
Steps to the right corner buoy (over the Sujack - about 90 feet deep) - 588 feet
Steps to fixed descent buoys (in 20' of water) - 78 feet

So while it's true that you can get some depth just outside the boundaries of the Park, it's not true that one or two kicks can inadvertently put you in deep water. You've got to work at it a bit.

In this particular case, my understanding is that he was found in about 20-25 feet of water. Based on where most buoys are anchored, based on some eyewitness statements, my guess is that it would mean he was roughly 75-100 feet from the base of the steps.

- Ken

[drbill]

As many of you know, I never advocate that another diver try solo diving. I don't know another diver's experience or response to emergencies. I have solo dived for nearly 50 years, but my experience is not relevant to this particular case as I was not the unfortunate diver.

My comment re: solo diving was meant only to suggest that IF one chooses to dive solo, the dive park is a pretty "safe" place to do so since it is well populated with other divers and has emergency personnel readily available. Obviously one needs to consider the personal risk involved in choosing to dive solo.

Thanks Ken for the clarification re: a few fin kicks to deep water. Actually I'm not sure there is any place that is over 100 ft deep AND still in the park. The boundary at the north end is in about 55 ft, in the vicinity of our "wreck alley" about 70 ft and at the south end in the 95 ft range (I should check by diving down the buoy anchor chain).

I know of no fin that could propel me into 100 ft depths with just a few fin kicks!

Tony was indeed in relatively shallow water fairly close to shore unless they moved the inflatable man further out after I left the park.

[Teamcasa]

I still think the real issue here is not solo diving (in scuba diving sense) or how deep the dive park is.

The real issue is; did the free dive to a shallow depth (20-25 FSW) shortly after scuba diving, play a role in his untimely death or was something else the cause.

One more thought:
If he had asked another diver who also was scuba diving that day, to join him in the free dive, who there have been two divers in trouble?

[Thalassamania]

I have never heard of bubble-pumping resulting in unconsciousness or death, the expected symptomology is a patch of anesthesia on the skin. Could happen though.

[Rick Murchison]

...The real issue is; did the free dive to a shallow depth (20-25 FSW) shortly after scuba diving, play a role in his untimely death or was something else the cause... I'll betcha right now the cause of death is found to be drowning. Having spent many a surface interval doing "little 20' breath-hold dives" with friends for many years without any of us having any incidents (I'm rethinking the wisdom of that with some of the recent articles on possible ill effects), I have my doubts that scuba has anything to do with it. I'd bet that he had difficulty on the bottom getting the float line loose, overstayed his breath, passed out on the way back up, was weighted enough to be negative, sank and drowned. I'd bet it's nothing more complicated than that.
Perhaps the autopsy will reveal something different.
But... even if it does, the fact remains that whatever happened, with no buddy the dive ended on the bottom rather than being dragged ashore on the surface. On the bottom you drown; on the surface maybe not.
Rick

[DandyDon]

Got to wonder why he didn't drop his weights at the first sign of trouble. Certainly not the first to die with weights on.

[gcbryan]

Got to wonder why he didn't drop his weights at the first sign of trouble. Certainly not the first to die with weights on.

Hard to do if you pass out.;)

I wouldn't be surprised if Rick is correct as well. The most likely scenario is usually the actual scenario.

[Michelle's Guy]

Lazy as I am, I can imagine a little wrestling to get the anchor free, feeling the shortness of breath, deciding to leave the weights on so I don't have to return to pick them up... I hope I'd have the discipline and patience to leave the weights for a return trip.maybe even hang them over the anchor..especially when diving solo.

[dave4868]

Lazy as I am, I can imagine a little wrestling to get the anchor free, feeling the shortness of breath, deciding to leave the weights on so I don't have to return to pick them up... I hope I'd have the discipline and patience to leave the weights for a return trip.maybe even hang them over the anchor..especially when diving solo.

I can totally identify with your statements!

I'm NOT saying it happened in this case, but, personally, I've intentionally cut corners and compromised my safety more than once while solo diving. Funny thing is I've almost never done that while buddy diving....

During my riskier decision-making episodes, my mindset was always an awareness of the potential problems, but thinking that I'd be able manage them or not wanting to look like I couldn't.

Soon after, I would often realize that such thinking wasn't very smart, that the rare or unpredictable disaster was just around the corner or just a mistep away.... I had just gotten lucky that time.... :shakehead:

I'm only a little smarter now, but one good thing I've figured out is that my decision making, or as you said, "discipline and patience", is often impaired during the event.

Now, I'm more likely to avoid putting myself into those situations because, while my overconfidence or flawed judgment or ego may still dance merrily on the edge of the precipice, I don't have to follow.... :)

Dave C

[enano315]

it's funny how all you people are experts a back seat freediving.not to mention the fact about accident investigation.i feel sorry for the parents,siblings,and freinds.my prayers and condolences.

[DandyDon]

it's funny how all you people are experts a back seat freediving.not to mention the fact about accident investigation.i feel sorry for the parents,siblings,and freinds.my prayers and condolences.
From the Forum description...
This forum is for the discussion of diving Accidents and Incidents. Please read the message at the top of the forum before posting threads or responses. Memorial threads can be posted in the Passings forum.
Now, if you'd like to read the message at the top of the forum, see the Sticky at the top or just click here (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/52701-special-rules-please-read.html).

[socaldiver]

In some ways I have to agree with enano315. Too many people input their .02 of "expert" knowledge without knowing all the facts.

I understand and agree that when an accident or an incident occurs it is good to discuss why and what happened so hopefully it doesn't happen in the future. But please, you don't know what transpired, unless you were physically there. So IMHO it shouldn't be discussed until all info is received by the authorized investigating parties.

Again, IMHO, discussing theories and hypotheticals would not be bad but I would not refer to any particular accident for this type of discussion.

[fdog]

it's funny how all you people are experts a back seat freediving.not to mention the fact about accident investigation.i feel sorry for the parents,siblings,and freinds.my prayers and condolences.

enano315, please don't jump to conclusions - many of the members here actually are well grounded in the subject of freediving.


http://www.divematrix.com/gallery/data/500/C4.jpg

For example, this is how I spent last weekend. Many of the members here do the same.


All the best, James

[Thalassamania]

And a few of us have a significant amount of accident investigation experience also.