Serious Problem at Big Bay Point

[Graeme Tolton]

First time ever at Big Bay Point, Yesterday. We arrived at 8am, with plans for 2, possibly 3 dives. It was a beautiful, warm, sunny day. Myself and my 2 buddies got in the water before anyone else showed up. After 45 minutes, we got out from our first dive. During our SI, other divers started to show up. There were all sorts. There were open water students, there were tech students, and just divers out for a day of diving. At this point, there were now about 4 or 5 different dive flags or buoys in the water. Now, along come 3 Jet skis... they think it is a great idea to use the assortment of buoys as an obstacle course!!

This was just the worst of what was happening. All day long, there were boats in an around the dive site.

Something needs to be done to raise awareness of what a dive flag means!

[ScubaSteve]

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[JimLap]

This is what shotguns are for. Or a well launched beer bottle into the bottom of the idiots jetski. Is anyone on shore capable of throwing a rock far enough to hit them? Or perhaps the old string a line across the path of them and give the old heave ho? All to me are acceptable methods of dealing with these morons. ANd where are your water cops when this stuff is going on? Got a cell phone? Call 911 or whatever you use up there and report someone being attacked with a weapon(jetski).

[Thalassamania]

I'm real fond of my potato cannon.

[ScubaSteve]

This is what shotguns are for. Or a well launched beer bottle into the bottom of the idiots jetski. Is anyone on shore capable of throwing a rock far enough to hit them? Or perhaps the old string a line across the path of them and give the old heave ho? All to me are acceptable methods of dealing with these morons. ANd where are your water cops when this stuff is going on? Got a cell phone? Call 911 or whatever you use up there and report someone being attacked with a weapon(jetski).


The problem is that there is no law that clearly states they are acting inappropriately. It specifies "acting in a safe manner". So, there is no guarantee that the police would arrive and I have also read that the OPP were unable to maintain a consistent presence on the waters for financial reasons. I am not sure how much truth there is to that OR what the impact is (so many lakes so few police boats), so calling 911 might get a cruiser out rather than a boat (to little effect for those a distance out on the water). This is a summary of what applies (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4195104-post1.html) in Ontario. So, I think we might just have to try to expedite Thal into mass production on the potato cannon.

[divingbuddy]

This is why I really do try to stay underwater until back closer to shore (by the shallows beside the dock).

I have popped an SMB for training purposes, only to see jet-skiers doing donuts around it.

How many more fatalities do we need here? Perhaps a buoy to act as a warning beacon to boaters and pleasure craft users...I don't really know....

Just my two cents...Cheers!

[ScubaSteve]

I agree. Unfortunately I have zero experience with this site, but this problem exists in most other sites. Cedar Hill in Wiarton was bad for a period but there seem to be fewer boats out in the past 2 or so years which has helped. I understand the logic of not wanting to legislate too much.....but an enforceable and measurable law for distance from dive flag for both boater and diver....I personally can get behind that I think. Add it to the Boaters exam (even though not everything requires a marine lisence) and/or Rental form.....then regionally add it to diver training. Not logistically simple but I would hope it would be more effective than what is in place now.

[Graeme Tolton]

The problem with the potato cannon is that if you actually hit someone with it, it can cause serious injury. At this point they phone the police, you get arrested and charged for assault with a firearm, attempted murder, possession of a weapon for a dangerous purpose, possession of a prohibited weapon, etc, etc, etc. Even simply throwing a rock could land you in the same position! I am not saying that they wouldn't deserve to be hit, they are recklessly endangering the lives of the divers!

Does anyone have any legal ideas for a solution?

[Thalassamania]

I was kidding, you need to find someone local with enforcement authority that gives a damn, a local PSD unit might be a good place to start the conversation.

[bleeb]

How about twine? A few 10' lengths with one end free and the other end attached to your dive flag buoy, SMB or bag. Long enough to assist as a tag line. Short enough to not be too much of an entanglement hazard. Floats (or tie a wine cork or some wood to the end). Biodegradable. Attach it with a few threads or something that will break off relatively easily and it'll get sucked up by any prop or into any jetski that gets too close. :D

Didn't someone already suggest sending bottles and cans to the surface with some air? :mooner:

And then there was someone else's suggestion for using bleach bottles as markers on the theory that it either scares the boats away, or they'll start ignoring bleach bottles and they'll ignore one tied to a rock some day in the future. :crafty:

[ScubaSteve]

Does anyone have any legal ideas for a solution?

At this point, since there really is nothing concrete written into either the regulations OR the boat lisencing tool (the exam), I would expect that the only two avenues are attempting to raise awareness as we saw Florida do after the tragic accident with Rob Murphy, or petitioning the government for changes to the regulation. As indicated, I think we need to tread very carefully with any sort of regulation change. I regulations change, they may or may not be in our favour. I have no issue AT ALL with being told to surface within 50' (or whatever) of the flag because I do that as a rule anyways or I surface close to shore whenever possible. BUT, What we may find is that we lose all access as divers to many popular dive sites if the regulation is implemented. We really do not know anything other than anything is possible to go wrong with the scenario. It is the government after all.

My suggestion is to print some inexpensive signs explaining in simple terms, the dive flag and the reasons for keeping a safe distance. Then laminate them and ask local businesses (close to the water and any water sports related business) for permission to post them front and center. Then put them out by the docks and anywhere you can rent boats or jet skis. This is the easiest and least intrusive way to raise awareness. The next step could be to hand out informative pamphlets at the docks in person. Bottom line is, we would need to almost befriend each and every boater / jet skier so that they do not feel their rights (or enjoyment) are being infringed on because otherwise more of them are likely to walk away and just ignore the issue (and flag) altogether.

Just my very quick thoughts.

[bleeb]

My suggestion is to print some inexpensive signs explaining in simple terms, the dive flag and the reasons for keeping a safe distance. Then laminate them and ask local businesses (close to the water and any water sports related business) for permission to post them front and center. Then put them out by the docks and anywhere you can rent boats or jet skis. This is the easiest and least intrusive way to raise awareness. The next step could be to hand out informative pamphlets at the docks in person. Bottom line is, we would need to almost befriend each and every boater / jet skier so that they do not feel their rights (or enjoyment) are being infringed on because otherwise more of them are likely to walk away and just ignore the issue (and flag) altogether.

The Ontario Underwater Council's Aviva Barth Memorial Project (http://www.underwatercouncil.com/?action=cms&cmspage=safety#ABMP), named after a local diver killed by a boat, is working on some of these, although I think you may have a few new ideas that are also worth pursuing.

[ScubaSteve]

The Ontario Underwater Council's Aviva Barth Memorial Project (http://www.underwatercouncil.com/?action=cms&cmspage=safety#ABMP), named after a local diver killed by a boat, is working on some of these, although I think you may have a few new ideas that are also worth pursuing.


Yeah I was in touch with them a couple months ago but had not started diving for the season at the time so forgot all about them. I will look back but I believe when I was emailing them, you could donate/buy a package from them with handouts etc.. I will try to recall who I was discussing it with asnd post it here. The concern that I voiced with this process was of how much of the donation went to the cause and how much went to the infrastructure behind the cause. I will confirm but I believe he satisfied me that it was a good way to go as an option. The method as I described above is still a good method as well IMO.....as an option.

I will find the emails and post tem here.

[ScubaRich]

I don't know about Ontario, But here in Pa. the PA fish and boat code title 30 has wreckless operation of a watercraft, A misdemeanor in the 3rd degree. They could be taken directly to a jail cell. Check with local LE and find out what the actual law states.

[ScubaSteve]

I don't know about Ontario, But here in Pa. the PA fish and boat code title 30 has wreckless operation of a watercraft, A misdemeanor in the 3rd degree. They could be taken directly to a jail cell. Check with local LE and find out what the actual law states.


I copied the actual legislation in my first post in this thread (I might actually have linked to another of my posts). The wording here is beyond wishy washy IMO.

[Groundhog246]

While I agree that the behaviour of the previously mentioned PWC's, many PWC operators in general and in fact many boaters, is deplorable. The fact is, that Big Bay Point IS a public dock and borders a marked navigable channel. Swimming, diving, scuba diving, etc., in such an area can only be considered unwise, flags, floats, etc not withstanding. I agree that an actual law regarding dive flags might be desirable. On the other hand, it may come with more rules than we want, such as the minimum size mentioned for an "Alpha" flag on a vessel conducting diving operations. It must be a minimum of 1 meter square and rigid. That'd be some dive float to move around. And as a boat operator, it needs to be that big to be seen from a reasonable distance. The red & white dive flag I carry on my boat is 30" X 60". It can be seen, unless you're downwind, then it could just as easily be a Canadian as a dive flag, until you're way too close. To me sticking up one of the "standard" little dive flags on a float or the plastic inflatable buoy that seems popular, is just placing a beacon for passing boaters to come investigate. They're so small, that they're usually not even noticed and if they are, they can't be seen well enough to be recognized, so the boater diverts to see what it is and by the time they do recognize it (if they know what it means at all), they're a lot closer than we want them to be.

If someone gets hit by a vehicle while on a sidewalk or when properly crossing at a crosswalk (marked or not), then sure, the driver is at fault. So, if a boater enters a marked swimming or other restricted area, there should be punishments.
But
When someone walks or runs across the road in the middle of the block or against the light, most drivers will try to avoid them, but if they can't, they are not considered at fault and most of us would question the pedestrians judgement. So why do we as divers, think we can hop in the water beside a DOCK on the edge of a popular boating route and expect boats to stay away?

I am both a diver and a boater, and I have to say that in general, neither divers nor boaters give sufficient consideration to the other. If I'm boating in a navigable waterway and especially in the proximity of a dock, I'm really not expecting to encounter people in the water, diving or swimming. Coming upon them unexpectedly, is similar to coming upon joggers on the 401 as you approach a ramp.

I just had a look at my marine chart for Lake Simcoe. I clearly shows the marina just around the point. I also shows the "Public" dock and has no restrictions or cautions for the area.

Lastly, I don't think that part of the lake is considered part of the Trent Severn Waterway. However, I'll note that the Trent Severn Waterway has a regulation prohibiting swimming and scuba diving in the vicinity of docks, locks and marked channels.

To me, the biggest villains in this scenario, is the dive professionals. The shops, instructors, etc., that bring students to an area like this to dive. They take brand new divers and start them off with unwise behaviour. It's like a driving instructor having a student driver stop on the side of the 401 to teach them how to change a tire. Not illegal, but not very smart.

[shoredivr]

While I agree that the behaviour of the previously mentioned PWC's, many PWC operators in general and in fact many boaters, is deplorable. The fact is, that Big Bay Point IS a public dock and borders a marked navigable channel.

To me, the biggest villains in this scenario, is the dive professionals. The shops, instructors, etc., that bring students to an area like this to dive. They take brand new divers and start them off with unwise behaviour. It's like a driving instructor having a student driver stop on the side of the 401 to teach them how to change a tire. Not illegal, but not very smart.

Now that is an interesting point, Groundhog246.

[ScubaSteve]

........It's like a driving instructor having a student driver stop on the side of the 401 to teach them how to change a tire. Not illegal, but not very smart.


That is interesting. But, you have looked at this as if the problem only exists at Big Bay Point. I agree that things get much murkier whenever you are in a place where there is both a "dive site" and a marina in close proximity of each other but the reality of the situation is that this problem exists in areas that are not like that. Cedar Hill is a good example of that. I am up there these less these days but there was a lot of boats that would come within 25' or so of the flag (fast or slow it does not matter) and you know that site......it is 10-11 kilometers or so as the crow flies to the marina in Wiarton and probably 3-4 kilometers accross (I am guessing at both of the distance values here). I am sure it can be a probelm in many places. The fact is, both Divers AND Boaters/PWC Operators should be held responsible for their actions. If that means I have to give up a couple sites then so be it. At least a diver "would" (or should) be able to feel safe where ever it is deemed OK to dive. I have no problem surfacing within X feet of the flag.....or swimming to shore with the flag in certain sites. I said it before, we do have to be careful what we wish for, but without some sort of penalty to the Boat/PWC operator for getting too close, we can only say "We knew that would happen eventually".

[Groundhog246]

I was addressing primarily the issue at Big Bay Point with many of my comments. Not only is it near a marina, the dive site itself is a DOCK!! Docks are built as a place to tie up boats, not as swimming, diving, fishing platforms. So if you're in the water within a few hundred feet of a dock, expect boat traffic.

That said, I have also done quite a few dives at Cedar Hill and agree that many boats come in too close. It has been my observation though, that many are actually ATTRACTED by the dive flag/float. You can see them coming along the shoreline a fair distance off, in many cases admiring the many cottages along the shore (you should see some of those places from the water, WOW!) and you can spot the moment they see the flag/float. They change course directly for it and then veer off when they can see clearly what it is. Thus my point on the need for bigger flags/floats, if they are to have practical value. I haven't seen many within 25 feet, but certainly many are much closer than I'd like them to be. And in cases where a flag/float has been left around the 30 foot mark and the dive has proceeded deeper, there's a high probability that there were boats going over divers.
As a result, I almost never use a flag/float at Cedar Hill, since I perceive the increased risk of attracting a boat outweigh any benefit, since the flag has no legal standing and only moderate recognition. I have had good response to broadcasts on my handheld VHF that there are divers in the water in the vicinity of Cedar Hill Park and for boaters to please exercise caution, watch for flags and please remain well offshore. I've actually observed several boats move further offshore after broadcasting a "securite" message. Of course, PWC's and small boats generally aren't equipped with VHF radios either. And just like our highway's, there are way too many who just don't care. They feel free to risk their kives and mine and all the laws in the world won't change them. So I dive, much like I drive and assume they are out to get me.

[ScubaSteve]

Fair enough. I agree with you for the most part.....and usually the boats that are coming along the shore at Cedar Hill are rarely traveling quickly because they are looking at the places on the shore (as you said). The only water traffic at Cedar Hill that I recall moving quickly (and well within the 25' mark of the flag) were jet skis. Boats on the surface are a fact of life for a diver....just as divers in the water are a fact of life for boaters.....we just need to find a way to hopefully coexist together where there is a mutual respect for both activities that limits the dangers to the others.

That said, I think it is important that the dive flag become a bigger part of the boating exam (even if the laws do not change to impose penalties of some kind for getting too close). Then, some sort of non-intrusive awareness program in place at local marinas identifying the flag and it's meaning, might help with some of those that do not require a boat license. (Educated) Awareness is never a bad thing IMO. It may not solve the problem but if it gets an additional 1% of new Boat/PWC Operators thinking about what a dive flag is, then maybe it will have made a difference.

And, I am 100% in agreement that the instructors should not be taking new divers (divers-to-be) to an area like this because this equation is almost as reliable as gravity on earth "new diver = poor buoyancy control".....that equates to an accident waiting to happen. Other, more suitable, training sites may not be as logistically convenient, but safety should be the only consideration IMO.

I was addressing primarily the issue at Big Bay Point with many of my comments. Not only is it near a marina, the dive site itself is a DOCK!! Docks are built as a place to tie up boats, not as swimming, diving, fishing platforms. So if you're in the water within a few hundred feet of a dock, expect boat traffic.

That said, I have also done quite a few dives at Cedar Hill and agree that many boats come in too close. It has been my observation though, that many are actually ATTRACTED by the dive flag/float. You can see them coming along the shoreline a fair distance off, in many cases admiring the many cottages along the shore (you should see some of those places from the water, WOW!) and you can spot the moment they see the flag/float. They change course directly for it and then veer off when they can see clearly what it is. Thus my point on the need for bigger flags/floats, if they are to have practical value. I haven't seen many within 25 feet, but certainly many are much closer than I'd like them to be. And in cases where a flag/float has been left around the 30 foot mark and the dive has proceeded deeper, there's a high probability that there were boats going over divers.
As a result, I almost never use a flag/float at Cedar Hill, since I perceive the increased risk of attracting a boat outweigh any benefit, since the flag has no legal standing and only moderate recognition. I have had good response to broadcasts on my handheld VHF that there are divers in the water in the vicinity of Cedar Hill Park and for boaters to please exercise caution, watch for flags and please remain well offshore. I've actually observed several boats move further offshore after broadcasting a "securite" message. Of course, PWC's and small boats generally aren't equipped with VHF radios either. And just like our highway's, there are way too many who just don't care. They feel free to risk their kives and mine and all the laws in the world won't change them. So I dive, much like I drive and assume they are out to get me.

[Groundhog246]

I would agree more emphasis on dive flags, as well as other markers, sould be placed on the boating exam. Have you taken the exam or a course? The red & white "dive" flag is in the CPS study guide my wife and kids used to prepare (I just challenged the test and passed, no study involved). I don't recall if it was on my exam. The exam itself is only 36 questions and you need 75% to pass.
I dislike ever more government involvement in my life, but I do think some type of testing for boaters was (is) needed. Unfortunately, the Boater's Proficiency Card and testing/training that we have fall well short of the mark. I know quite few who still don't have it, including PWC operators. And the quick briefing you get when you rent a PWC or boat, that is the equivalent (!!) to a PCOC is useless in most cases. The primary focus of the PCOC is the safety of the operator and crew. It deals with nav aids, required safety equipment and right of way for other vessels, that's about it. Not much about swimmers, etc. I see it mostly as the governments response to the bad press over people killing themselves on PWC's. There are still more die (drown mostly) canoeing and kayaking that any other type of boat, but no motor, so no restrictions. And all the laws in the world, won't help if there's no enforcement.

For those not familiar with the PCOC (Pleasure Craft Operator Card) as of this date, anyone born after April 1983, must have one to operate any motorized vessel, as well as anyone operating a vessel of less than 4M (13.1 ft). which includes pretty much any PWC. And to use correct terminology a jet-ski which has no seat, but is ridden standing up, is a PWC, a sit down "Sea-Doo" is also a PWC, but it's not a "jet-ski". It's right up there with people who refer to our scuba fins as "flippers". Even with a PCOC, no one under 16 is allowed to operate a PWC. And as of September 2009, anyone operating a motorized vessel, must have a PCOC.

Lastly, most of the folks we as divers have problems with, I wouldn't consider "boaters". They're generally fishermen who have a boat to fish from, PWC operators, just out to make noise, waves and generally annoy (notice, most never seem to do anything or go anywhere without an audience), etc. They are distinctly different from the folks I call boaters, who own boats and just enjoy time on the water, whether travelling or anchored. And I think you'l find most of them courteous of other users of our waterways.

[roastbeef]

The dock at big bay point is a federal dock not provincial. The boats and jet skies have just as much right to be there as divers do as long as they approach with caution so I suggest next time this happens you voice your concern to the jet skier or boater directly. Barries population and recreational veicle use is on the increase it will only get worse before it gets better, so if you want some one to point the finger at blame the twits who teach the safe boating courses they hardly mention the dive flag. When was the last time you walked into any marina in Ontario and saw a dive flag for sale or a notice to boaters to stay clear of divers flag.

[acwest]

The dock at Big Bay Point, last I heard, is now owned by the local town, and there is a very strong movement to ban diving entirely at the site, as it annoys the boaters, and they are the ones that vote in that jurisdiction... Apparently there have also been a number of complaints from the people who live in the immediate vicinity of the dock. I'm hoping that doesn't happen, but it's a fairly strong possibility...

[ScubaSteve]

......it annoys the boaters, and they are the ones that vote in that jurisdiction.....

No divers live in that area? Boaters don't travel there from outside the area?

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[SailNaked]

I am thinking of maybe some fishing shot on monofilament equally spaced apart radiating from the dive flag to about 30 feet and small not quite floating floats on the ends. I believe jet skis have plastic props inside a housing and led shot would probably decimate it if it ingested a few. :cool2: :mooner:

[Groundhog246]

I believe it's a Federal dock, leased by the local municipality. The Feds rarely sell them. Often the lease is a token $1 a year. With some of the mess I've seen groupd of divers leave behind, I'm not surprized thee's a movement to ban them. And as annoying as boaters and PWC operators may be, it's rare to see them using the trees and bushes as toilets. Of course, the folks fishing there also leave garbage there, use the trees and bushes, park where they shouldn't and make a lot of noise. A couple of portable outhouses would work wonders, but who's going to pay for them? I've seen other municipalities have a portable or two in similar locations.

Steve. There may be one or two local divers, but the majority are not. Most of the boaters aren't local either, although some are. But the marina pays local taxes and creates local jobs. So they are going to be listened to. The main objectors are the people who live close by, who get garbage in their yards, people using their property as washrooms, cars blocking thier driveways and lots of noise.

SailNaked. I've had similar thoughts, but the intakes are screened to block debris, so I think you'd have a hard time getting lead shot in there. And I think enough floaty monofilament or small rope, etc, would be more of a tangle hazard to any divers in the water, than to boats or PWC's.

[NorthernPike]

I believe it's a Federal dock, leased by the local municipality. The Feds rarely sell them.

The feds have been implementing a divestiture program since the mid 1990s, with the aim of ridding themselves of all inland small craft harbours. All the harbours on the S. shore have been sold to the Town of Georgina, and they have closed most of them, including the public boat ramps.

This forum won't let me post the URL, but here's a quote from a recent federal Commitee report:

[/QUOTE]That the Government of Canada invest $82 million over the next five years to complete the Small Craft Harbour divestiture program.[/QUOTE]

[Groundhog246]

Did you try the insert hyperlink icon? I've never had any trouble posting a link here. Where I dock, everything is up in the air over possble aboriginal claims. Last winter an aboriginal owned fishing vessel did thousands of dollars in damage to the floating docks in the off season and the town, who run the marina, leasing it from the feds, have to pick up the tab. They only did a patch job, glad it's not the section I tie to. I'm strongly considering moving my boat to another area. There fraid to try and collect for the damage, or to try and stop them tying to the docks, even though their not designed or built to handle a vessel of that size and weight. Latest plan, and I think a good one, is to remove the last section of dock at the shore end, so even if they tie up, they can't go ashore. :)
Anyway, my last word on Big Bay, I think it's a stupid place to be diving. Went there once to see what it was about and I won't be going back. There are other safer and more interesting places to dive.

[shoredivr]

Did you try the insert hyperlink icon? I've never had any trouble posting a link here.

Northern Pike needs to have 5 posts before a link can be posted...it's to avoid spammers.

Two more posts, NP and you're good to link.:eyebrow:

[Michael_Lambert]

This happens every weekend..

My buddy and i have been diving BBP 2-3 times a week for 3 years now.. and have had several issues including both of us being hit no more than 20 feet off the dock.. My incidental included my dive flag being slashed and the hand wheel on my first stage being cut into by a zodiac prop..

It has gotten to the point we feel its safer to just safer to sit at the end of the dock wait till its compleletly free and then make a mad dash over the ledge.. Then after our safety stop shoot a surface marker and hope for the best swiming back..

Between getting hit and having like said 4-5 flags in the water with new divers criss crossing each other tying up lines can get insane!

[Groundhog246]

This happens every weekend..

My buddy and i have been diving BBP 2-3 times a week for 3 years now.. and have had several issues including both of us being hit no more than 20 feet off the dock.. My incidental included my dive flag being slashed and the hand wheel on my first stage being cut into by a zodiac prop.. !

I can only ask, why would you dive there then? Putting one or 50 dive flags in the water does not have any law behind it in Canada. 20 feet from a DOCK, a boat would have the right of way, NOT a diver, especially if all that's showing is your typical small dive float or flag. That said, there is a speed limit for boats within 20 feet of a dock and many don't obey that. But even if a zodiac or PWC is within the speed limit, if a diver is hit, the diver will lose. And if there's any chop on the water, the boater probably won't even realize he hit anything, unless it damages a prop, etc.
Diving there makes as much sense to me as riding a 10 speed bike on the 400 or the 401. Boat dock or launch ramp = BOATS!!!!

[roastbeef]

I agree 100% the boats have the right of way at the docks. I'm still tyring to figure out why the diving industry stopped producing flags that say "DIVER BELOW" I know the red striped dive flag should be a standard on any boating course but as divers you just can't count on it and it doesn't seem to be working so perhaps by making the flags once again that say "DIVER BELOW" it may help some divers at close range with boaters and that's if the boater can read English which is another issue.


Roast beef

[popsiclediver]

Ive been to The Morrison a couple of times before.. is this different? Ive never seen a dock, and GHD seems to be really bent out of shape about diving around docks...fair enough...but as we march over the rocks with our gear, or down the beach by the fountain there is no 'dock' between the Morrison and our heading....... As Graeme said, it can get quite busy, but no one Ive seen is as foolish as to drop in by a dock.... jet skis, on the other hand, do view the flags a sport....

[Michael_Lambert]

Yes the Morrison is a different dive site than BBP.. Also keep in mind the same issues happen while diving the Morrison.

Why do we dive there, Its the only site locally where we can get the depth for much of the training and skills we like to do.

Fact is, Like said it is a dock and there are boats. All we can do is work together to ensure we do dive it as safe as possible.

Going in is typically not an issue as you can clearly see nothing is around when you head out... Its after your dive you are coming up to the unknown.

Ever since diving no flag and shooting a marker on the 15 foot stop we have not really had any issues.

9 out of 10 times boaters and the local fisherman on the dock work with the divers and avoid us and we avoid them.. The dock is never used by boats to actual tie off too... in the 10+ years i have been using that dock i can count on 1 hand how often i found a boat tied off.. There is no ramp there for launching... just a dock.

[Groundhog246]

Ive been to The Morrison a couple of times before.. is this different? Ive never seen a dock, and GHD seems to be really bent out of shape about diving around docks...

There is a dock, follow 30th Sideroad to the end and you can see it on the map.
Innisfil, Ontario, Canada - Google Maps (http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Innisfil,+Ontario,+Canada&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=44.399694,-79.517756&spn=0.021279,0.055661&z=15&iwloc=A)

I get bent out of shape with not so smart people complaining about others behaviour, when they need to take a real hard look at their own. Especially when you've got professionals taking students out and TEACHING them the bad behaviours, such as diving from or beside a DOCK!!!

As for the Morrison. I've done more than one dive there. Never had a problem on entry or exit. I get just as annoyed as any diver with irresponsible PWC operators and other plain bad boaters. On the other hand, I've watched a group of divers arrive, gear up and head for the Morrison towing a flag, with fishermen in boats already on the wreck and others coming and going and then complain loudly about the boats not respecting thier flag! And I really have to wonder why they thought they thought the boats who were there first should leave. And with it proximity to a public boat launch JC Morrison - Google Maps (http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&ll=44.377751,-79.686263&spn=0.005322,0.013915&t=h&z=17&msid=106285706610835127458.0004706bff133b9d515ef) boat traffic shouldn't be a surprise.

My other pet peeve, is what many divers consider an adequate float/flag. If you're upwind or downwind of a flag, all that's really visible is the float and pole. And if the float or flag is upsun (you're looking towards the sun and the flag at the same time, reflctions on the water make it almost impossible to see. You certainly won't be able to distinguish any color or pattern ie. red with a diagonal white stripe. The Safe Boating Guide mentions divers and flags on page 51 of the 2009 edition. Not much of a mention in an 84 page publication. It does "recommend" staying at least 100 meters away if possible and slowing down. It also mentioned the requirment to fly both flags from a boat if diving. It doesn't mention that from a boat, under the apllicable laws for boats, that dive flag Alpha must be "Rigid and 1 meter tall". The little 12" nylon flag from Canadian Tire doesn't cut it. However, tha law actually only applies to commercial diving tenders, not sport divers. As I've mentioned before, the red/white dive flag on my boat is 30"X60".
I agree there need to be co-operation and sharing of the water between divers and boats, as well as other users of our waterways such as swimmers and wildlife. I watched a PWC chasing geese on Monday. I wonder if he has any idea what kind of fine he could get if Natural Resources caught him, along with possible loss of his PWC? I'd have called if I'd known who to call. But, it needs to go both ways, and if we want respect for our flags, we need to make them visible. For example these Amazon.com: Inflatable Dive Float with Flag Scuba Maxs ( Size: 12" x 15" (DF03) ) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000GGASLY/ref=dp_image_text?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&img=MAIN&color%5Fname=x) are useless from a boaters perspective. The bigger yellow one Amazon.com: DELUXE INFLATABLE DIVE FLAG AND FLOAT BUOY (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000P9WG6C/ref=dp_image_text_0?ie=UTF8&n=3375251&s=sporting-goods) with horizontally hung flag is not too bad, but still not very visible if your not to one side or other of ther crossbar. And if it can't be clearly made out from 100 metres across the water, expect boats to come closer to see what it is.

[Michael_Lambert]

I agree 100% the boats have the right of way at the docks. I'm still tyring to figure out why the diving industry stopped producing flags that say "DIVER BELOW" I know the red striped dive flag should be a standard on any boating course but as divers you just can't count on it and it doesn't seem to be working so perhaps by making the flags once again that say "DIVER BELOW" it may help some divers at close range with boaters and that's if the boater can read English which is another issue.


Roast beef

Does not seem matter, I dive the location regularly.. With a "Diver down" flag the big red round one saying "Diver Down" on it with the little flag pole, and yet i have had boats and jetskies buss the marker, i have had fishermen actually stop and try pulling it into there boats!

[Groundhog246]

First, let's not confuse most drivers of PWC's with boaters. There are a few responsible PWC operators, some even own big boats, but most are younger, male and of the same mentality that ride sport style motorcycles. You know, the ones that fly by on no passing zones, pass on the line on the 401 between two vehicles and most of the time are well over the speed limit. Many of them know the rules (laws), they just don't care and have no respect for anyone else. More laws, education, etc, won't help, at least not without enforcement.

There's not a lot of excuse for anyone, fisherman included, trying to pick up your marker. Now I do know a couple of fishermen up where we dock, that probably wouldn't connect the phrase "diver down" with a scuba diver, without pictures. :) They also have no intention of getting a bloody license to drive a boat, because they've been doing all their life just fine. The local club has had racing marks, which had Reef Boat Club, Race Mark 1, 2, etc on them in large black letters. One brought it back and turned it in at the marina, "they thought the club must have lost it, because it was 2 miles off shore". In past years, they've had them cut loose and lost them and the anchor they were on. Some of the fishermen get upset when the racing fleet come through where they're fishing (and under sail, they have the right of way). Locally relations between the two groups is good at the moment. But in some areas, there's a real animosity between power, especially fishermen and sail.

I find if everyone just tries to be polite and not blame the many good boaters and divers for the rude and ignorant few, it all goes much better. All it needs is an of ignorant boater and a couple of rude divers to start it, a few more on each side to fan the flames, and then it hits the fan.