Diver Dies in Long Sault [Archive]

detroit diver

June 8th, 2003, 09:51 PM

Scuba student dies on St. Lawrence

By LAURA CZEKAJ, Ottawa Sun

A scuba diving accident on the St. Lawrence River, near Cornwall,
claimed the life of a 29-year-old Nepean man yesterday.

Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry OPP were called to the Long Sault
Marina around 11:15 a.m. after a scuba diver experienced
difficulties while beneath the water.

A witness said the man was a student in a diving class and was
diving from a boat on the river when the accident happened.

"Something happened down there to him," said the man, who asked not
to be identified. "They tried to save him, but they weren't able
to."

Police were not releasing the name of the victim until relatives
were notified last night.

An autopsy is scheduled today in Cornwall. Police are continuing to
investigate how it happened.

http://www.canoe.ca/OttawaNews/os.os-06-08-0010.html

divebuddydale

June 8th, 2003, 11:20 PM

Here is something from another e group that I access.. the info here is unofficial,

"I was speaking to someone from the shop this afternoon when I finished a dive a Prescott. Here's what I was told -- but please remember this was told to me, it's not the official investigation results:
a new diver, just recently finished his OW, was on his advanced.
through circumstances there was more than just the instructor for the AOW course present
the diver apparently went into major panic mode -- by the sounds of it, the worse case scenario that we are all told about.
the divers (instructors, and his buddy) attempted to calm, but in his panic caused not only his reg to drop, but cause others to loose theirs too
during this time, a lot of silt was stirred up, and they lost track of him.
did the by the book - search, went to the surface, reported the missing diver, and returned to search again as he was not at the surface.
they located him and returned him to the boat in less than five minutes, and the boat immediately return to shore to the waiting ambulance
CPR and AR was done from the time he was brought on board to the time they turned him over to the paramedics.
That's what I was told, but as I said, it's not the official results. "

Edit note by DivingGal: That is what I was told by a store employee where the class was from.

DivingGal

June 9th, 2003, 06:30 AM

Thanks divebuddydale, I was too beat last night to come here and post that info.

On the news this morning, although the cause of death has been initially declared drowning, the coroner and a "diving expert" have been called in to investigate.

Needless to say the instructor involved is extremely upset.

Doppler, this is what I know of the site:
depth was approximately 80ft
water temp in the St L is approximately 50-55 at that depth (for me is was on the weekend)
site was the "belly dumper"
there is a current, (but nothing like the Darayw)
the last time I was there (last summer) viz is 30-50. After the initial descent, when the class had settled to the bottom, for some reason unknown to me there was an amount of silt stirred up. At this point the instructor elected to move the class a short way -- everyone was visible, just in a bit of a cloud of silt. The instructor signaled the move, and received acknowledgement. It was in this move apparently that the panic attack happened.

My prayers go out to the diver's family, and the divers present to find the comfort that they all need at this time.

MikeFerrara

June 9th, 2003, 07:29 AM

DivingGal once bubbled...
After the initial descent, when the class had settled to the bottom, for some reason unknown to me there was an amount of silt stirred up. At this point the instructor elected to move the class a short way -- everyone was visible, just in a bit of a cloud of silt. The instructor signaled the move, and received acknowledgement. It was in this move apparently that the panic attack happened.

My prayers go out to the diver's family, and the divers present to find the comfort that they all need at this time.

Settled to the bottom? Siltouts are a hazard in themselves. Divers and classes who settle to the bottom cause siltouts.

DivingGal

June 9th, 2003, 07:34 AM

I perhaps should not have used those words "settled to the bottom" I do not know if they actually touched bottom or not, I do know they descended to depth.

I do not know if the class caused the initial silting or other divers.

eagleray2003

June 9th, 2003, 10:12 AM

Let's just hope that the cause is found and made public, at least that way this young man's unfortunate death may have a lesson for all of us.
Sympathies to the family, safe diving to all.

cobaltbabe

June 9th, 2003, 04:11 PM

This young mans family are in my thoughts.

Diver Joe

June 9th, 2003, 08:51 PM

A very sad thing to see happen to anyone anywhere... Having it happen so close to home makes it seem all the more tragic. A reminder that this can and does occur, sometimes to a beginner, sometimes to an expert...None of us are exempt.

My thoughts and my prayers go to his family and to the other divers that were there.

If anyone see's the funeral details please pass them along.

Doppler

June 10th, 2003, 08:46 PM

Always think that when someone dies, we -- our community -- has lost something valuable. We shared a common interest and in that way were perhaps more connected to them and their death somehow seems more real.

Of course it's a terrible waste when someone dies "early" but I hope we can learn something from this type of episode... Perhaps in a little while after the grieving part is over.

Thoughts go out to family and friends... and those poor beggers who where in the water with him.

Doppler

thrive

June 11th, 2003, 03:49 PM

Why would they take a class to the bellydumper? It's a horrible dive, even if it's a nice day. No reason for taking a class there when there's so many better sites nearby.

They do take the classes to the bottom for Open Waters, since most of the area isn't too bad for silting up, and that way you know everyone doesn't have to worry about buoyancy.

rollins

June 12th, 2003, 07:40 AM

What does that mean, "belly dumper"?:confused:

thrive

June 12th, 2003, 07:48 AM

It's the name of the ship before it sank, and I guess the name of the wreck too, since it didn't change.

If I remember correctly, it's one of three barges in that area. Not my favourite dive for those parts.

Kevin R

June 12th, 2003, 10:05 AM

Actually, it is a type of ship which can dump a load of gravel or sand out throuth the underside to aid in underwater construction, etc. Much like a belly dumping trailer on a construction truck. If you dive the wreck, you will see two openings in the sides from which this happens. I don't know the exact mechanics of how this is acomplished underwater.

The class was there for the deep dive portion of the PADI advanced course.

Kevin

thrive

June 12th, 2003, 10:11 AM

I thought it was a thresher to clean weeds out of the bottom. We have smaller vessels like this doing the canal in Ottawa.

Like I said I could have been wrong.

GTADiver

June 12th, 2003, 10:35 AM

DivingGal once bubbled...
My prayers go out to the diver's family, and the divers present to find the comfort that they all need at this time.
This is truly a tragedy that need not have happened. I truly hope that a Coronor's inquest is called and that the diving community can learn from the incident and possibly the family can get some closure. Kanata Diving Supply will hopefully review its interpretation of their PADI standards with this being the second fatality they have had on an advanced course.

eagleray2003

June 12th, 2003, 11:20 AM

There certainly seems to be a fair bit of interest in this accident and divers I have conversed with seem to be almost insistant on finding out what happened here so future incidents can be avoided, also because it is someone from right here in this area.
I too would like to see some form of closure for the family and if an inquest is what it takes so be it.
Have they closed this site temporarily?

Fat_Tony

June 13th, 2003, 02:28 PM

Are you sure 2 people have died in Ontario doing the AOW? The OUC Fatality Reports only lists 7 fatal accidents or is this list out of date? http://www.ontariodiver.com/fatal.htm or is there a better list?

Paul

eagleray2003

June 13th, 2003, 02:48 PM

I think it is as out of date as Jean Chretien!

divebuddydale

June 13th, 2003, 02:52 PM

Fat_Tony once bubbled...
Are you sure 2 people have died in Ontario doing the AOW? The OUC Fatality Reports only lists 7 fatal accidents or is this list out of date? http://www.ontariodiver.com/fatal.htm or is there a better list?

Paul

That list is way out of date... I know of 2 (3 if you count the one at Morrison Dam, QC last year or the year before) Dave Cooper, the Long sault Guy are the most recent that I remember, but are probably not the only ones. BTW the list you gave is not AOW training only, it is any fatality.

Dale Sanger

Fat_Tony

June 13th, 2003, 03:02 PM

Dale,

I realize the list is a all fatality list not just training fatalities.

Is there a better list availiable anywhere?

Thanks,

Paul

Groundhog246

June 13th, 2003, 03:38 PM

Not on the list was a local diver (Scotty) who died on an deep dive (course) in Toby last summer. So include in the list of training accidents. You can never be positive what happened, but common speculation is he was skip breathing (holding his breath) to extend bottom time and ascended slightly causing an embolism. Official cause of death was air embolism. His buddy reported him signalling out of air on his main and pony bottles. On the surface both had lots of air and regulators were found to be in good working order.

divebuddydale

June 13th, 2003, 04:05 PM

I don't know if there is a more up to date list anywhere. Kinda a morbid list to want to keep, although I do think that info on how accidents happen is good to know. The site that was listed had great info on suspected causes, but was extremely out of date.

Dale

Tom R

June 13th, 2003, 04:14 PM

We also had a rebreather death in Toby last year also.

Tom R

eagleray2003

June 13th, 2003, 06:17 PM

MikeFerrara

June 13th, 2003, 07:19 PM

The diving community is seldom told anything of value. Rarely do they have some one who knows diving examine the accident other than the people who are involved for the purpose of protecting the interests of the shop, instructor and the certification agency.

IMO, Whenever there is a fatality in training that doesn't involve a heart attack or something they need to take a real good look at what happened.

I guess we won't know for a couple of years until the DAN report for this year is released but it sure seems like we are reading about more and more accidents. I really think the agencies should stop ignoring it and get a little proactive.

Of course, though, you realize that if they did, it would be the same as a public admission that they were doing something wrong. That might open a real can of worms. My guess is that they will continue to portray diving as being as safe as bowling.

Tom R

June 13th, 2003, 07:21 PM

Are we sure that he was trained properly in the first place, maybe we should start there, and work forward. Lets look at the big picture here not just the incident.

Is anyone here a instructor trainer? or a instructor evaluator? cause it sure sounds like it

Tom

Kevin R

June 13th, 2003, 11:21 PM

What constitutes proper training? If it is the standards put forth by almost all of the training agencies then who is to blame when a shop trains within these standards? I find it interesting to read what the experts have to say when an incident occurs, and even more interesting to see just how many experts there suddenly are.

divebuddydale

June 13th, 2003, 11:38 PM

I think that the Government should get involved with the training aspect (That is probably the only time you will here me ask for more Gov't oversight). If they set the standards, and then they ultimately certify the Instructors. They get the PADI, NAUI, ACUC, etc Instructor cert then have to perform their knowledge and be observed training students before they are 'legal' to train students. Kinda of like a BAR exam lawyers do, and a bi- annual recert.

Knowledge standards for each level of cert (OW, ADV OW, DM, etc) should be the same across the board and should not be the 'bare minimum'.

Sorry for the diatribe but thats the way I see it.

Dale S

Bubble Boy

June 14th, 2003, 12:09 AM

Kevin Ripley once bubbled...
What constitutes proper training? If it is the standards put forth by almost all of the training agencies then who is to blame when a shop trains within these standards? I find it interesting to read what the experts have to say when an incident occurs, and even more interesting to see just how many experts there suddenly are.
Agency standards are MINIMUM standards. When the minimum standards are not met negligence comes into play. It will be up to the investigator to decide if there was Criminal Negligence.

MikeFerrara

June 14th, 2003, 10:52 AM

What investigator?

MikeFerrara

June 14th, 2003, 10:56 AM

Tom R once bubbled...
Are we sure that he was trained properly in the first place, maybe we should start there, and work forward. Lets look at the big picture here not just the incident.

Sarcasm?
If I understood the accident happened during training. I'd sat something was wrong.

Is anyone here a instructor trainer? or a instructor evaluator? cause it sure sounds like it

Tom

I'm not an IT but I am an instructor and I know the kind of crap I see all the time. Incedents like this don't surprise me even a little bit.

BTW, I know an IT who needs to kneel down to use a compass. He teaches the fastest most inadequate classes I have ever seen.

eagleray2003

June 14th, 2003, 02:22 PM

This incident has certainly been the water cooler talk this past week. I have heard alot of the older divers saying this one can't be swept under the table as most are. I'm hearing divers saying it could have been avoided as I suppose most accidents can be.
I have friends who are former instructors that have sent e-mails and have called both the coroner's office and the offices of Padi encouraging them to get to the bottom of this one and make there findings very public not hidden in the back pages of a newapaper where you might find it.
I as others who have non diving spouses are really on edge and asking many questions I can't answer, it makes it tough when you are going out to do a dive.

Dan MacKay

June 14th, 2003, 09:42 PM

GTADiver once bubbled...

This is truly a tragedy that need not have happened. I truly hope that a Coronor's inquest is called and that the diving community can learn from the incident and possibly the family can get some closure. Kanata Diving Supply will hopefully review its interpretation of their PADI standards with this being the second fatality they have had on an advanced course.

What you have just spouted here I find this the most insidious form of slander possible. One does not interpret standards you teach to them or exceed them. What possible good is there in mentioning a second past fatality with out mentioning what the situation was or what the out come of the investigation was? Do you in fact know what happened or are you a person with an ax to grind and are using a horrible tragedy to take a pot shot at anotherwise outstanding store?

I contend that the student was a victim of the training agency in question. He was fresh off of his OW course with no interviening dives. I lay most of the blame here on the instructor who signed the original 'C' card and the agency whose framework is so leinient as to allow him/her to sign it. There is no way in the world that a student such as this could disguise his discomfort in the the water thoughout a whole OW without raising some flag in the mind of the original instructor.

Next comes a training cirriculum that allows and encourages students to take exactly this route. This is largely a financial issue as dive shops make nothing on the OW course but they can charge the same bucks or more for a two day AOW plus the extra gear sales that advanced students need. A store can finally make some coin. If KDS did not take this student then he would have found someone else to do it in fairly short order. This student, by the way way, came to KDS straight off off is OW from another Ottawa store whom unlike you, GTAdiver, I will out of courtesy not name. I think it was only KDS's unfortunate luck to be the next store in the area to be teaching a AOW.

The last but not least victim is the instructor in question. Once again hamstrung by the training agency when presented by the 'C' card that allowed the student to be on the course, the instructor has to assume that the student has the knowledge, skill and experience that the card represents or at least the minimum skill set. I do not think the the student possessed either in this case. I am not letting the instructor off scott free as the he/she should have had the skill and experience to deal with the in-water situation. Once again we have a training agency certification process that can be sometimes questionable on the required experience side.

There have been a whole bunch of losers in this accident. My heartfelt condolences go out to all involved particularly this gentleman's family, friends and the folks he was in the water with. This is a wonderful sport but there is nothing underwater worth dying for. If we had training agencies that were less concerned with marketing and more concerned about product situations like this one would be far fewer and farther between.

So GTAdiver rather than make rather broad slanerous statements in reference to any dive facility why not call a spade a spade and have a look at the root causes as some other more reasonable folks have sugested in this forum?

taz22

June 14th, 2003, 10:16 PM

The Tick once bubbled...

So GTAdiver rather than make rather broad slanerous statements in reference to any dive facility why not call a spade a spade and have a look at the root causes as some other more reasonable folks have sugested in this forum?

I have heard pretty much the inside scoop on what happened and it truly something that I feel sympathy to the family of the person who has died.

I will refrain from commenting on this tragic event and let the investigation take place and then comment after all the "facts" are made public. I trust that most on this board would agree with this course of action. Let us not slander or politicize a death of a fellow diver in this public forum without having "all" the facts.

GTADiver

June 15th, 2003, 01:04 AM

The Tick once bubbled...

What you have just spouted here I find this the most insidious form of slander possible. One does not interpret standards you teach to them or exceed them. What possible good is there in mentioning a second past fatality with out mentioning what the situation was or what the out come of the investigation was? Do you in fact know what happened or are you a person with an ax to grind and are using a horrible tragedy to take a pot shot at anotherwise outstanding store?

I contend that the student was a victim of the training agency in question. He was fresh off of his OW course with no interviening dives. I lay most of the blame here on the instructor who signed the original 'C' card and the agency whose framework is so leinient as to allow him/her to sign it. There is no way in the world that a student such as this could disguise his discomfort in the the water thoughout a whole OW without raising some flag in the mind of the original instructor.

Next comes a training cirriculum that allows and encourages students to take exactly this route. This is largely a financial issue as dive shops make nothing on the OW course but they can charge the same bucks or more for a two day AOW plus the extra gear sales that advanced students need. A store can finally make some coin. If KDS did not take this student then he would have found someone else to do it in fairly short order. This student, by the way way, came to KDS straight off off is OW from another Ottawa store whom unlike you, GTAdiver, I will out of courtesy not name. I think it was only KDS's unfortunate luck to be the next store in the area to be teaching a AOW.

So GTAdiver rather than make rather broad slanerous statements in reference to any dive facility why not call a spade a spade and have a look at the root causes as some other more reasonable folks have sugested in this forum?
Ya its simple the root cause is a dive shop putting more focus on money than safety. Its funny that the newspapers listed the charter boat but not the store. The other stores should not be tarnished by the actions of one. You blame the first instructor who certified the student to 60 feet. The store picked the wreck site and must take some of the responsibility or are you contending that an instructor would pick a site that they had not dove on before. You asked about the first accident...it happened on the wreck of the Daryaw (another inappropriate site to take an advanced student). Its not slanderous when it is a fact. I have no axe to grind with this store but it is hurting other PADI instructors who try to do a good job. I ran into a student that was taken to a quarry with a max depth of 8 feet for his rescue training. An unconcious diver recovery from 8 feet is hardly appropriate. Thanks but I will stick with the Toronto and Kingston stores.

sisterJ

June 15th, 2003, 01:14 AM

Bubble Boy

June 15th, 2003, 01:37 AM

taz22 once bubbled...
I will refrain from commenting on this tragic event and let the investigation take place and then comment after all the "facts" are made public. I trust that most on this board would agree with this course of action.
Well said Tazzy

barb

June 15th, 2003, 09:05 AM

I agree that we need to learn the "facts" otherwise we are just speculating/gossiping and nothing can be learned from this.

My concern is that we will never learn the facts. Will the information be "kept under wraps" because it is sensitive and possibly harmful to the Scuba industry?

I understand the desire to have this information. Some people may be just morbiddly curious but I think most of us genuinely want to know so we can be safer/better informed divers. Isn't this why we take more courses after all?

I'm very sad for this divers' family and all those that witnessed the accident.

:(

sisterJ

June 15th, 2003, 09:13 AM

GTADiver once bubbled...

Ya its simple the root cause is a dive shop putting more focus on money than safety. Its funny that the newspapers listed the charter boat but not the store. The other stores should not be tarnished by the actions of one. You blame the first instructor who certified the student to 60 feet. The store picked the wreck site and must take some of the responsibility or are you contending that an instructor would pick a site that they had not dove on before. You asked about the first accident...it happened on the wreck of the Daryaw (another inappropriate site to take an advanced student). Its not slanderous when it is a fact. I have no axe to grind with this store but it is hurting other PADI instructors who try to do a good job. I ran into a student that was taken to a quarry with a max depth of 8 feet for his rescue training. An unconcious diver recovery from 8 feet is hardly appropriate. Thanks but I will stick with the Toronto and Kingston stores.

GTA,

What you have posted above is conjecture and merely a conclusion deduced from defective and/or presumptive evidence. It is meaningless.

Your thinking is flawed. If you are going to be certified as an advanced diver you have to be able to do the dives. There are recreational divers all over the Daryaw everyday of the summer season. It is quite a well controlled site. On decent divers have a wall on one side and the wreck on the other. The max depth is 75ft. The water is warm approx 60f in October. It is roped for pulling against the current. The only real stress factor is current. And if you are going to be diving in current then sooner or later you must do training dives in an evironment that has current. The Daryaw is a reasonable training site. It has limited surface traffic and is very close to shore. ALso it is not a heavy working dive. My RMV for this site was 0.56 cfm. My buddy's RMV was pretty much the same.

Once again you failed to provide any detail regarding this second mentioned incident. If you would like to discuss this incident start with the acident report and present us all with the accident analysis.

sisterJ

Bubble Boy

June 15th, 2003, 12:50 PM

sisterJ once bubbled...

GTA,

What you have posted above is conjecture and merely a conclusion deduced from defective and/or presumptive evidence. It is meaningless.

Your thinking is flawed. If you are going to be certified as an advanced diver you have to be able to do the dives. There are recreational divers all over the Daryaw everyday of the summer season. It is quite a well controlled site. On decent divers have a wall on one side and the wreck on the other. The max depth is 75ft. The water is warm approx 60f in October. It is roped for pulling against the current. The only real stress factor is current. And if you are going to be diving in current then sooner or later you must do training dives in an evironment that has current. The Daryaw is a reasonable training site. It has limited surface traffic and is very close to shore. ALso it is not a heavy working dive. My RMV for this site was 0.56 cfm. My buddy's RMV was pretty much the same.

Once again you failed to provide any detail regarding this second mentioned incident. If you would like to discuss this incident start with the acident report and present us all with the accident analysis.

sisterJ
The Daryaw is a beautiful wreck but it is deeper than 75 feet and as GTA said it is not a spot to take someone for an advanced check out. There are better wrecks ie the Keystorm.

Marvintpa

June 15th, 2003, 02:30 PM

This is quite the thread.

We have people advocating more government regulation (just look at Quebec's recent steps to evidence on how well that would likely work) and others attacking training agencies for being too soft.

Is scuba a perfect industry? Hardly.
Are there instructors who are better than others? Sure.
Are there procedures in place to find and prevent poor instructors from teaching? You betcha.
Would they make it hard for a crappy instructor to continue? Definitely.
Do these steps ever actually get taken and enforced? Absolutely.
Is it in the best interest of the training agencies to make sure poor instructors don't teach? That's too easy.

It amazes me how people who have never been in the role of an instructor seem to feel they can can dictate how to teach scuba. Personally, my hat goes off to anyone who can pull all of the aspects of being a successful scuba instructor together, and make it safe, fun, educational, enjoyable, entertaining, and life altering in a positive way.

Dan MacKay

June 15th, 2003, 08:12 PM

GTADiver once bubbled...

Ya its simple the root cause is a dive shop putting more focus on money than safety. Its funny that the newspapers listed the charter boat but not the store. The other stores should not be tarnished by the actions of one. You blame the first instructor who certified the student to 60 feet. The store picked the wreck site and must take some of the responsibility or are you contending that an instructor would pick a site that they had not dove on before. You asked about the first accident...it happened on the wreck of the Daryaw (another inappropriate site to take an advanced student). Its not slanderous when it is a fact. I have no axe to grind with this store but it is hurting other PADI instructors who try to do a good job. I ran into a student that was taken to a quarry with a max depth of 8 feet for his rescue training. An unconcious diver recovery from 8 feet is hardly appropriate. Thanks but I will stick with the Toronto and Kingston stores.

As Dr. Evil said to his son Scotty..."You just don't get it, do you son?".

Riddle me this - You are so adament about placing blame on a store (the store that hosted the AOW) what about the guilt/greed/complicity/lackadaisical training standards/etc of the store (and instructor and agency) that provided him with the 'C' card that allowed him to die?

Get your head out of your butt GTAdiver, this is an argument that you cannot win.

On the other hand I must agree whole heartedly on your musings of the rescue training. Few of the rescue courses I have seen and even the one I took many moons ago reflected the real life situations that I have witnessed and participated in since. Perhaps even you are advocating stricter standards?

snuggle

June 15th, 2003, 08:36 PM

after reading all the post on this thread it still blows me away how people jump so fast to conclusions after theres been diving accident/fatality..people right away seem to think that they either know what happened or that they know who to blame, be it the store or the instructors ect ect..any diver and i do say ANY diver who gets their c card can at any time go into the water and have something go wrong..thats just the way it is..you can go thru the motions a 99 times with no problems but on the 10oth run into trouble..will some get through it ok yes they will while others will not.instructors can only teach them the basics and what they do with it after is their resposibility.im not saying that instructors shouldnt be held accountable for the WAY they teach..all im saying is that if some one gets there c-card and then does something stupid to cause harm to themselves then where does the blame lie..the instructors?no..the blame lies solely on the diver..take it from me i learned it the hard way..they always told me to dive with someone..did i listen ..NO and i almost paid for it..do i blame the person who taught me?no i dont i blame me and thats all there is to it..so lets stop this laying the blame trip and find out exactly what happened and then go from there.as for you experinaced divers out there and there are alot im sure..just because your experienced doesnt mean you automatically know what happened when an accident happens..its not always cut and dry..enough said..

Kevin R

June 15th, 2003, 09:47 PM

this being the second fatality they have had on an advanced course.

You asked about the first accident...it happened on the wreck of the Daryaw (another inappropriate site to take an advanced student). Its not slanderous when it is a fact. I have no axe to grind with this store but it is hurting other PADI instructors who try to do a good job.

You may want to check your sources Mr. GTA Diver. The AOW course that was ran on the Daryaw was organized and instructed by one of the Ottawa dive clubs, not KDS. The only involvement KDS had with it was to charter a boat to them and provide a boat operator.

Kevin

MikeFerrara

June 16th, 2003, 08:38 AM

snuggle,

I disagree.

I see hundreds of students and divers in the water every season. I'm usually unlucky enough to be present when a few are hauled off in an ambulance. Divers and students are being hurt and killed because of stupid things that aren't even real problems like free flows and loosing a fin.

When a shop or instructor looses a student the burden is on them as far as I am concerned.

I don't think any one dies in training unless it's a medical thing or some one makes big mistakes. If you are aware of an exception I'd love to see one.

I could list all the mistakes I witness in the water every weekend and a number of injuries or fatalities that have resulted from those very things. You make it sound like it's just bad luck when a student is lost.

Personally I want the agencies and instructors to explain why these things are happening if their methods are valid. Just a simple explaination would be fine. Do you think they will ever even discuss it? I don't. they will just repeatedly state that diving is as safe as bowling. I don't think so.

Doppler

June 16th, 2003, 08:52 AM

snuggle once bubbled...

SNIPPED

ANY diver who gets their c card can at any time go into the water and have something go wrong..thats just the way it is..you can go thru the motions a 99 times with no problems but on the ....

SNIPPED

Snuggle... something that was said to me when I first started cave diving was that an equipment failure underwater will not kill you -- with the exception of your tank valve blowing a hole in the back of your head -- however, your reaction to an equipment failure and your lack of planning may kill you or get your buddies seriously hurt.

Divers need to learn to control their reactions and need to know how to deal with something hitting the fan while diving... that only comes with experience and direction, either from an instructor or other mentor...

It sounds to me as though you have resigned yourself to the inevitability of injury because of equipment failure. I refuse to accept that. Equipment failure is a damn nuisance, but not cause to panic and die!

If it is a fact that people react poorly to "the unexpected," the issue is poor training. That's something we can do something about.

SneakyB'tard

June 16th, 2003, 09:04 AM

It amazes me how people who have never been in the role of an instructor seem to feel they can can dictate how to teach scuba.

I must disagree with this comment. I agree with the rest of the paragraph.

Quality as it relates to Scuba Instruction,

Quality is the totality of features and characteristics of a product or service that bears on its ability to meet a stated or implied need of a customer.

The ability to define accurately the customers needs related to design, performance, price, safety, delivery, and other business activities and processes will place an instructor ahead of their competitors in the diving market.

The student is the customer.
The instructor is the service provider.

The customer will dictate how the service provider operates so long as it does not compromise the safety and intergity of the those involved.

It amazes me how peole that do not understand the dynamics of consumers and business enter the diving industry. Perhaps that is why we see so many scuba businesses fail.

SneakyB'tard

June 16th, 2003, 09:13 AM

I agree Doppler.

I feel that if a person is does not have the ability to be calm and cool while doing critical problem solving tasks, they are not ready to move into diving.

The only piece equipment you need to be dependant on is the one placed between your ears. If it fails you- you are guaranteed to have a bad day.

eagleray2003

June 16th, 2003, 09:23 AM

The Tick
You seem very eager to hang the instructor who certified him at Open Water level.
But correct me if I'm wrong under Padi standards is it not a requirement to check out any student's skill level prior to doing the dives? Seems to me the store arranging the course should also schedule the skill assesmnet?
Are instructors not taught at the IDC that you should not add to the stress level of divers in training? I think site selection would fall under this?
No matter who you blame we all agree that this as most accidents could have been avoided and to lessen the risk of future accidents I beleive we must find out what went wrong here,it's a no win here for anyone but we can and should learn from this.

MikeFerrara

June 16th, 2003, 10:35 AM

Yes it is a PADI requirement to asses a divers skills to determine if they are prepared to undergo the training they are beginning and to provide (or offer) and to remediate if required. However much of the decission as to wether or not a students skills are up to par are subjective and left to the judgement of the instructor.

I doubt that there is anything here for most of us to learn. There isn't any magic going on here. As I said in another thread it's all basic stuff and the basics are what's lacking.

Chet

June 16th, 2003, 10:38 AM

I am sad to here of this accident.
I am not sure why there is all this talk about the O/W instructor who did this persons open water course. Eagle you are right, it is required to perform a review before the AOW even if the diver was trained by the same instructor(Scuba Review). The extent of the review is questionable. So the store and the instructor are responsible for this and it is at the end up to the instructor.
Hopefully the facts will come out and until this time this is all speculation.

I agree Doppler.

I feel that if a person is does not have the ability to be calm and cool while doing critical problem solving tasks, they are not ready to move into diving.

Sneak, everyone has to start somewhere. I will put my money on good leadership and store & instructor safety to reduce the risk, then putting it solely on the student(clam & cool is very important) a balance is very important.
Remember we where all newbies at sometime.
Be Safe
Chet

Dan MacKay

June 16th, 2003, 10:52 AM

eagleray2003 once bubbled...
The Tick
You seem very eager to hang the instructor who certified him at Open Water level.
But correct me if I'm wrong under Padi standards is it not a requirement to check out any student's skill level prior to doing the dives? Seems to me the store arranging the course should also schedule the skill assesmnet?
Are instructors not taught at the IDC that you should not add to the stress level of divers in training? I think site selection would fall under this?
No matter who you blame we all agree that this as most accidents could have been avoided and to lessen the risk of future accidents I beleive we must find out what went wrong here,it's a no win here for anyone but we can and should learn from this.

I am not trying to specifically hang the student's OW instructor. What I am trying to get across from this tragedy is an industry wide problem. Everyone who touched this student had a hand in it. I only pick on the certifying instructor as in any accident analysis this is the the first link in the accident chain. I remain unconvinced that his OW instructor did not see something during his 40 hours of instruction that a PADI course is supposed to provide that would have clued him/her in that chess was probably a better sport for this lad. Likely due to the fact that the instructor did not have the gumption and/or experience to tell a student that this is not the sport for him and that it would bruise his ego this student obviously passed with marginal skills from an already marginal course minimum. Result = Death.

Think about this for a moment. How many of us have done our OW certification is conditions worse than this. I certainly did. Not much of an option. Vis was nil (mostly due to our lack of skill) and most instruction was done by touch contact. The essential skill of reg recovery had been practiced enough before hand that it was not an issue and more that a few regs were accidentally dislodged during the OW sessions that were found replaced and no one bolted. I will conceed that we were in 20' of water.

My point is that this is were we live and dive. This is our enviroment. I wholeheated agree with one of the other posters that said that we should train where we dive. If this was an advanced site (I do not know as I have not dove there) then I think that it is entirely appropriate to dive there. If we do not train in 'advanced' conditions under supervision then where do we learn the coping skills? Should we not train cave divers in caves or wreck divers in wrecks? We live with siltouts every day around here.

This diver should not have been certified in the first place. This diver should not have been on a AOW in the second and the supervising instructor should have had this skill to cope with this emergency in the third. This accident began the day this guy signed up for his OW and the framework of the training agency involved (which is not dissimilar to most) allowed this person to coddled along to his eventual and tragic end. Now that I have thrown everyone under the bus is it a little clearer?

thrive

June 16th, 2003, 11:13 AM

Just a quick note to everyone. The original dive shop refused to put this student through the AOW on the basis that he should get some dives in first. He was asked to get more comfortable before taking the AOW.

snuggle

June 16th, 2003, 12:15 PM

good point doppler but i never said anything about equipment failure..all i said is that anything can happen even to the most experienced diver..as for myself am i scared everytime i go in thewater of my equipment failing?no not at all..the thought isnt even on my mind to tell you the truth..you go on to say that equipment failure can be a nuisance but doesnt mean that the diver has to die..your right and theres no doubt that panic causes a lot of deaths..some divers can handle the panic alot better then others..thats something that will never change because its a fact..it shouldnt be that way but it is..and mike goodpoint as always but again why are we blaming the instructors everytime a diver dies..why is the responsibility always on their shoulders..there are many good instructors out there so lets not lump them all together..

GTADiver

June 16th, 2003, 12:20 PM

Kevin Ripley once bubbled...

You may want to check your sources Mr. GTA Diver. The AOW course that was ran on the Daryaw was organized and instructed by one of the Ottawa dive clubs, not KDS. The only involvement KDS had with it was to charter a boat to them and provide a boat operator.

Kevin
My sources are excellent. I suggest you check yours. The instructor (initials PL) now a PADI Course Director was instructing the course for KDS, off of KDS's boat. A boat that had no VHF Maritime radio, no oxygen, etc etc.

MikeFerrara

June 16th, 2003, 12:36 PM

snuggle once bubbled...
mike goodpoint as always but again why are we blaming the instructors everytime a diver dies..why is the responsibility always on their shoulders..there are many good instructors out there so lets not lump them all together..

Because lately lots of these divers are being injured while in training or otherwise under the direct supervision of an instructor. The instructor is responsible for making sure that the divers skills are up to the planned dive and they are responsible for controling the situation if they were wrong.

If a diver is adequately prepared and they decide to go off and do something silly it isn't the instructors fault.

Divers don't know what they don't know and I think they don't know a lot.

taz22

June 16th, 2003, 01:05 PM

GTADiver once bubbled...

My sources are excellent. I suggest you check yours. The instructor (initials PL) now a PADI Course Director was instructing the course for KDS, off of KDS's boat. A boat that had no VHF Maritime radio, no oxygen, etc etc.

Are you sure that the instructor on this course and the one in question was a PADI CD. My info is different than that, and my info comes from a few different very reliable sources.

GTADiver

June 16th, 2003, 01:38 PM

taz22 once bubbled...

Are you sure that the instructor on this course and the one in question was a PADI CD. My info is different than that, and my info comes from a few different very reliable sources.

Hi Tazz, you are correct it is different instructors. Same dive shop but different instructors.

taz22

June 16th, 2003, 02:05 PM

GTADiver once bubbled...

Hi Tazz, you are correct it is different instructors. Same dive shop but different instructors.

Thanks GTA for the clarification.

As stated, I'll comment more on this accident and what I know and have heard once the investigation has been complete and the report issued.

TCDiver1

June 16th, 2003, 02:25 PM

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

Personally I want the agencies and instructors to explain why these things are happening if their methods are valid. Just a simple explaination would be fine. Do you think they will ever even discuss it? I don't. they will just repeatedly state that diving is as safe as bowling. I don't think so.

Honestly Mike, you still having this debate? Well, since i've been away from this board for awhile, i'll fire off my opinion as another instructors opinion. For what it's worth some newer posters may not have heard it.
First, you tend to make it sound like all agencies standards and their instructors are inadequate to safely train divers. I simply don't agree with the scope of what you seem to be saying. I agree that standards could be improved, that Q&A of instructor performance could be improved but IMO it ain't as busted as you infer. If it was that broken, people should be dropping like flies and that ain't happening.
I know your argument of "it ain't happening because most people dive with supervision" but honestly, how many full blown emergencies can you handle at once? One? .... yeah, me too. If the training and standards were that bad, no Dm or instructor would have enough hands to deal with all the blow outs that would be happening.
That is even more true in some other countries besides the US. I've had DM's in some places, your lucky to see during the dive let alone expect any help from. You think those guys are postioned well enough to help the poorly trained diving masses. Not!

Lastly, you know i respect your opinion Mike but it seems you only want to blame the agencies and instructors for accidents that happen. Again i respectfully disagree. What about individual diver responsibilty? You have been teaching long enough that you can't honestly believe that divers don't make mistakes from time to time, regardless of training. It's human nature, we screw up.

MikeFerrara

June 16th, 2003, 02:43 PM

gedunk once bubbled...

Honestly Mike, you still having this debate?...

Long time no see (read)

Yes, I'm still at it. Just to bring you up to speed for three weekends in a row EMS has responded to Gilbos. One that I know for certain is dead. The one this Saturday was a student in an advanced class. It shouldn't have happened, IMO. One was participating in a supervised dive in the DUI dry suit demo. The third I don't know about.

Sorry but where I live they are dropping like flies. Just exactly like them and as if they had less value.

Hell it's ok with me if it's ok with the rest of you. I wouldn't change a thing.

TCDiver1

June 16th, 2003, 03:03 PM

Howdy Mike,
The last thing i care to do is minimize any accident or any death related to the sport i love. IMO, every one of them is tragic. However, i would respectfully argue that at least part of the cause, in all cases was probably "the diver" not the agency or instructor. I don't know the facts in any of the cases but have been around long enough that i feel safe making that statement.

I wonder, since i admittedly have no data about this, is the accident rate per capita diver going up or down? I can only go by what we see up here. Lots of great lakes diving going on and i don't see the injury rate going up. And there is a lot more diving going on than 20 or even 10 years ago.

I know we are not going to agree on this Mike but you don't have to try to fire up the board to come after me.;)

MikeFerrara

June 16th, 2003, 03:58 PM

gedunk once bubbled...
Howdy Mike,
The last thing i care to do is minimize any accident or any death related to the sport i love. IMO, every one of them is tragic. However, i would respectfully argue that at least part of the cause, in all cases was probably "the diver" not the agency or instructor. I don't know the facts in any of the cases but have been around long enough that i feel safe making that statement.

I wonder, since i admittedly have no data about this, is the accident rate per capita diver going up or down? I can only go by what we see up here. Lots of great lakes diving going on and i don't see the injury rate going up. And there is a lot more diving going on than 20 or even 10 years ago.

I know we are not going to agree on this Mike but you don't have to try to fire up the board to come after me.;)

Sorry. I don't want any one going after you. I know you beter than to think you would trivialize an accident or death.

I don't know for certain about the per capita rate other than the DAN report and what I see. I think the latest DAN report does show an increase in the number of injuries but for a single year and without knowing the number of dives or the number of divers it's hard to identify the mathmatical significance of that.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of this is region specific. However the season is yet yong at Gilboa. Keep in minf two of the three for certain were under supervision (don't know what happened with the third). This one in Long Sault was also a student under supervission. Maybe I have to start diving in your area cause I don't want anything to do with mine anymore.

It's funny almost. I complain so often about the junk I see at Gilboa especially AOW classes on the deep side. Divers die and are injured doing exactly that and we discuss it like it's the first one.

The first drop of rain that hits you is some one elses fault. The second one is your own.

Fat_Tony

June 16th, 2003, 05:52 PM

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

I see hundreds of students and divers in the water every season. I'm usually unlucky enough to be present when a few are hauled off in an ambulance. Divers and students are being hurt and killed because of stupid things that aren't even real problems like free flows and loosing a fin.

When a shop or instructor looses a student the burden is on them as far as I am concerned.

I don't think any one dies in training unless it's a medical thing or some one makes big mistakes. If you are aware of an exception I'd love to see one.

I could list all the mistakes I witness in the water every weekend and a number of injuries or fatalities that have resulted from those very things. You make it sound like it's just bad luck when a student is lost.

While I dont disagree with you. I do have to comment you are going to have accidents in training, because we are human and make mistakes. Besides more pool time before checkout dives the simple fact is the instructor/student ratio is to great. If something goes wrong your buddy is in training also, by the time your instructor sees the problem it may be to late. That and I think people do the AOW much to soon.

Paul

DPVDiver

June 16th, 2003, 06:54 PM

I think it is important to realize that an Open Water Certification from whatever agency is merely a ticket to learn and become a better diver. If once certified as an Open Water diver you were as good as Jaques Cousteau we would not have the need for advanced diver training. I certainly hope that none of my students feel they have learned everything after taking an open water class. If they feel that they know everything about diving I do not think That I did my job.

I admit that all together too often student divers rush through and do not master the necessary skills needed for the level of "card" that they posess. However, in this instance I know the certifying instructor and if there is a PADI instructor with higher standards I have yet to see him. I have seen him spend countless extra pool sessions, open water dives, and classroom time for his students to show mastery. He is one of the only instructor I have ever seen tell someone they are not ready! He teaches for the love of teaching, not the MONEY! Let's not forget in this situation the certifying instructor expressed his views that the diver should do some beginner level dives (which this instructor organizes routinely for his students) before continuing on to the advanced level. This instructor also did an extra pool session with this student after his open water dives because the student wanted to try out new equipment.

As far as your attitude TICK, I think you should keep your opinions about who is to blame for someones death to yourself. Lets not attack somebody who was not even present for the incident! Let us find TRUE facts and learn from this tragic happening.

My thoughts are with the hearts of the diver's family.

KG

Dan MacKay

June 16th, 2003, 10:17 PM

DPVDiver once bubbled...
As far as your attitude TICK, I think you should keep your opinions about who is to blame for someones death to yourself. Lets not attack somebody who was not even present for the incident! Let us find TRUE facts and learn from this tragic happening.
KG

Facts neither true nor false, they are merely facts. I may be a little bit more familiar with this incident than you would care to realize.

In order to conduct an accident analysis very often not to much can be gained until the accident is viewed in a complete manner. Simply observing the scence of the accident renders just the effect not the cause. In the case of and aircraft accident the entire training history of the pilot is examined included those of his instructors. The entire maintenance history of the aircraft is examined as well as the entire flight history.

Employing just a minimum of this protocol to this incident, since this diver had a very short career, would in not be appropriate to look back just one page?

I entirely disagree with your statement the the original instructor was not there. He was very much there embodied in the skill and knowledge of the unfortunate student that died. When faced with the basic critical decision of how to deal with a lost reg which by this time should have been drilled into him and executed just from muscle memory alone he made the wrong decision.

From my previous post I am not placing the entire blame on his certifying instructor. I am saying that this was the first link in the accident chain. How strong or weak that link is, is yet to be determined. But as part of the investigation it should be indeed examined.

MikeFerrara

June 16th, 2003, 10:40 PM

Fat_Tony, I agree that ratios are often unmanageable. If the instructor is 20 ft away and there are eight people inbetween the instructor and the student with the problem the chances of a successful response to a problem is nil.

DPVDiver, The original instructors advice may very well have been this divers best bet.

DPVDiver

June 17th, 2003, 07:35 AM

Mike and Tony,

I agree about the ratios. I have seen too many times Instructors out at Prescott with 7 or 8 students by them selves. Why? Begause the "standards" say they can. Myself I never teach without a DM. I always ask myself - If I had 6 students by myself at 40ft on open water dive 1 and one bolted. If I left to control their ascent who would stay on te bottom with the others? That is why I always have a Divemaster. Remember the ratios are for optimal conditions, and even at that they are too high. Perhaps a Divemaster should be mandatory for all training.

Tick, your right to fully check out the situation because too often people are just handed their cards for going through the motions. I assure you this was not the case here. I may have got a little upset because he is a good friend of mine and a great instructor.

Has anyone else heard that this diver may have been diving with a 72 cuft steel with a J valve set to reserve. Thus showing he still had air in the gauge but it would not come out. If this is true this may be a good place to start as I know the certifying store would not use such relics so the diver would not have been completely familiar with this type of gear eventhough it is mentioned briefly in the course. I have a J valve too, it's downstairs on the shelf with all the other antiques.

divebuddydale

June 17th, 2003, 06:11 PM

DPVDiver once bubbled...
Mike and Tony,

I have a J valve too, it's downstairs on the shelf with all the other antiques.

LOL .. I dove with a J Valve up to last year. The tank worked fine, I just kept it switched down all the time, and removed the wire that allows you to switch back and forth. I got the tank for free (My father -in - Law was not allowed to dive anymore by Dr's orders), so beggars can't be choosers.

Dale

mglasspo

June 17th, 2003, 06:18 PM

I continue to use J-Valves with my gear, one of the tanks I use on almost all dives is a J. The other is a K, as long as you're aware of the differences, then there are no problems in using these valves. Even with a novice.

SneakyB'tard

June 17th, 2003, 06:30 PM

The problem is not so much with the J valve, but with a 72 being used on an advanced course.

If a diver is new he tends to use up alot more air...a 72 in a panic situation could last....5 minutes. I know an 80 wouldn't be much better but still it makes a difference. New divers need the extra room to breath ie bigger tanks.

I am sure there are different opinions.

divebuddydale

June 17th, 2003, 06:56 PM

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...
The problem is not so much with the J valve, but with a 72 being used on an advanced course.

If a diver is new he tends to use up alot more air...a 72 in a panic situation could last....5 minutes. I know an 80 wouldn't be much better but still it makes a difference. New divers need the extra room to breath ie bigger tanks.

I am sure there are different opinions.

There are a number of factors that if we sat back we could find alot we would like to change.

Tank at least 80CU FT
More time between OW & AOW
Better Dive site for relaitve newbies

you guys could probably add more I am sure

Dale

mglasspo

June 17th, 2003, 10:44 PM

I agree that someone likely needs more than a few weeks between OW and AOW, I personally took a year before I felt I was ready (notice that I felt I was ready and that's my baseline for doing things), I don't think that 8 cubic feet of air if someone is likely to blow through 72 cubic feet that quickly. If that's the case, the argument could be made for them to dive their dives with doubles on (now the dive stores would LOVE that ;)) so I really don't see 8 cubic feet making enough of a difference, the only difference is, the dives with the 72cuft will be a bit shorter. You should be surfacing with enough air to deal with problems anyways. I also think (note I have not dived on the sites in question) that an advanced level dive should be on the advanced course. Submit your students to the stresses and challenges that they will face in their diving at the advanced level. I'm not advocating just throwing them in and letting them sink or swim. In the predive briefing tell them what to expect and how to deal with it. If you're still not comfortable with their skills, do another dive and practice them, but by no means skip an advanced dive for the advanced course. That's ridiculous.

sisterJ

June 18th, 2003, 07:13 AM

GTADiver once bubbled...

My sources are excellent. I suggest you check yours. The instructor (initials PL) now a PADI Course Director was instructing the course for KDS, off of KDS's boat. A boat that had no VHF Maritime radio, no oxygen, etc etc.

GTA

You might consider rechecking you sources. The incident that you are refering to was a FSAC sponsered event. The FSAC chartered the boat from KDS. The victim was a Major from the Canadian Armed Forces.

sisterJ

sisterJ

June 18th, 2003, 07:52 AM

Bubble Boy once bubbled...

The Daryaw is a beautiful wreck but it is deeper than 75 feet and as GTA said it is not a spot to take someone for an advanced check out. There are better wrecks ie the Keystorm.

BBoy,

My apoligies, I see I have to be a little more literal for some. The Daryaw lies turn-turtle (upside down) in 50 to 85 ft of water. There is nothing to see at 85ft so why go there. There is little or nothing to see at 80 ft, so why go there. You can explore this wreck quite thuroughly from 75ft, hence the max depth of this dive is 75ft. If divers would stay out of the mud it would be a benefit to us all.

In the case of the Keystorm, I fail to see it as a better choice. It comes with it own set of logistical considerations. Since we are talking in terms of depth to the mud, it exceeds 110ft. This is a complication when diving air and most AOW are not nitrox certified. There is also current on the Keystorm and I have been on it when it is ripping. Finally, it sits at the edge of the main shipping lane. These are all risks that have to be managed just like on the Daryaw. Except that on the Daryaw is only 85 ft to the mud and it is not in the main shipping lane and it is right next to shore incase of an emergency.

I never suggested that the Daryaw should be used as a checkout site. But to clarify, it is an excellant site for an AOW graduation dive. And divers should not graduate if they cannot execute such a dive with an AOW level of skill and competency. If you are going to dive in the river; you have to train in the river.

sisterJ

Dan MacKay

June 18th, 2003, 08:33 AM

divebuddydale once bubbled...

There are a number of factors that if we sat back we could find alot we would like to change.

Tank at least 80CU FT
More time between OW & AOW
Better Dive site for relaitve newbies

you guys could probably add more I am sure

Dale

Well said Dale.

Finally the voice of reason. Particulary the recomendation for more (I would say mandatory) time between OW and AOW.

Butch103

June 18th, 2003, 08:36 AM

.......to be that we have a conflict of information. So I would humbly suggest that unless some of the information providers in this thread can give us unsubstaniated proof of what happened, I again humbly suggest that we stop the back and forth banter and accusations of KDS. I would also provise this statement, that I am in now way associated, aligned or even vaguely familiar with KDS and/or the diver/divers involved ineither tragedy.

Blame is easy to attach to someone else, and therefore it is easy to place the blame on either dive shop involved and also on the diver.

Perhaps until we get unrefuted evidence of what happened, perhaps we should let the deceased and their memories rest in peace.

I am now stepping off my :box:

cat

June 18th, 2003, 08:59 AM

sisterJ
Daryaw depth: buddy and I 'only' went to max. 84' on it this past weekend and there was PLENTY of Daryaw below us - and lots to see at that depth - at least in terms of life. Fair bit of current, too. Was told the depth to mud was 92' at upstream end - seemed pretty accurate once we were there. Not arguing - this is just in case someone's using this thread to help plan a dive and wants a "site bottom" CF plan in place.

I have heard more about the Long Sault diver but, as this came via my LDS, who got it from the LDS in question, it is now third hand information, and possibly biased. I'm with Butch on this - let's wait for the real story (if it ever comes out).

sisterJ

June 18th, 2003, 12:24 PM

cat once bubbled...
sisterJ
Daryaw depth: buddy and I 'only' went to max. 84' on it this past weekend and there was PLENTY of Daryaw below us - and lots to see at that depth - at least in terms of life. Fair bit of current, too. Was told the depth to mud was 92' at upstream end - seemed pretty accurate once we were there. Not arguing - this is just in case someone's using this thread to help plan a dive and wants a "site bottom" CF plan in place.

.

Cat,

Thanks for the update. If you check the web for info on the Daryaw they list the bottom anywhere from 80 to 120ft.

I usually do not get to dive the wreck until late in the season October or sometimes in November, if the boats are still running. At that time of year the water level is generally significantly lower.

And I have accessed the majority of the wreck from 75ft.

sisterJ

weight_for_me

June 18th, 2003, 03:31 PM

Nepean native, 29, drowns while diving

Adam Thomlison

Friday, June 13, 2003 - 08:00

Local News - The death of a 29-year-old Nepean diver who drowned near Cornwall has been ruled accidental.

The man, whose name is not being released at the request of his family, was out on the St. Lawrence River near the Long Sault Marina on an advanced-level scuba-diving class last Saturday morning when he ran into trouble under the water. He and the roughly 10 other divers were in water 26 metres deep about 500 metres from shore.

�Everybody�s still pretty shocked that it did happen,� said a member of the crew on the boat that took the divers out, a charter from Depth Charge Diving Inc. �It�s like a one in a million thing.�

The boat was equipped with emergency oxygen tanks and all three crew members knew CPR and first aid.

As soon as he found out the diver was in trouble, at about 11:15 a.m., the witness said he phoned 911 and called in two of his company�s own rescue divers. Within minutes the divers had arrived and pulled the man up.

The man was given oxygen and CPR until an ambulance arrived. Paramedics continued his treatment until arrival at a Cornwall hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

The witness said scuba diving is statistically one of the safest sports going, a fact which adds to the shock of this death.

�If you look at the safety numbers, there�s less accidents in scuba diving than in bowling,� he said. �That�s an actual fact.�

From "Nepean this Week" newspaper
Randy...

MikeFerrara

June 18th, 2003, 04:14 PM

As safe as bowling? Where have I heard that? When was the last time you heard of som one spitting out their lungs or drowning in a bowling accident?

I did see a guy drink to much in the bowling alley bar and fall off his stool. It was terible. He bumped his knee and sprained a finger. I got pretty scraped up once in a wrestling match we had in the billiards room at a bowling alley. Does DAN provide an insurance package for such tragedies I wonder? Oh but those aren't really bowling related.

ok, I got it...maybe you could sprain a finger using a ball that doesn't fit your fingers? Sprain a shoulder with a ball that's too heavy. I suppose you could slip on the lane and bump your butt.

divebuddydale

June 18th, 2003, 05:23 PM

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
As safe as bowling? Where have I heard that? When was the last time you heard of som one spitting out their lungs or drowning in a bowling accident?

I did see a guy drink to much in the bowling alley bar and fall off his stool. It was terible. He bumped his knee and sprained a finger. I got pretty scraped up once in a wrestling match we had in the billiards room at a bowling alley. Does DAN provide an insurance package for such tragedies I wonder? Oh but those aren't really bowling related.

ok, I got it...maybe you could sprain a finger using a ball that doesn't fit your fingers? Sprain a shoulder with a ball that's too heavy. I suppose you could slip on the lane and bump your butt.

Hey I have seen plenty of bowling accidents, none fatal, but man did Fred Flinstone ever look bad after crashing into those pins, or I remember the time the ball fell on his head ...OUCH...

I think we need to start a new certifying agency P.A.B.I ? (Professional Association of Bowling Instructors) what do you think

Dale

p.s My toungue was firmly in my cheek when I wrote this.

Butch103

June 19th, 2003, 09:38 AM

......I have seen that stat before, and as comical as it seems I do not doubt the accuracy of the numbers.

BUT, I think the numbers are injuries and not deaths. So in reality I would firmly believe that ther are far more deaths in diving than in bowling ( kinda makes you wonder how someone dies bowling).

Does this create some sort of false safety valve in our minds? Perhaps maybe.

All we can do as responsible divers is promote good diving skills, which should always include safety first.

BTW Mike and other instructors, a question, do you feel that all divers should at the very least complete the Rescue course within a certain time frame?

And while I am on this rant should we have renewable certs?

MikeFerrara

June 19th, 2003, 10:34 AM

Butch103 once bubbled...
......I have seen that stat before, and as comical as it seems I do not doubt the accuracy of the numbers.

BUT, I think the numbers are injuries and not deaths. So in reality I would firmly believe that ther are far more deaths in diving than in bowling ( kinda makes you wonder how someone dies bowling).

Does this create some sort of false safety valve in our minds? Perhaps maybe.

They use statistics to prove that diving is safe. they campare it to things like bowling and driving. Well, more people probably die in the bath tub but so what?

With the proper skills diving isn't that dangerous. However, without them or without a supervisor to pull your but out is sure is. One can screw up pretty bad on shallow dives it seems. They shoot to the surface and and often end up no worse for wear. At places like Gilboa though they don't seem to be doing so well. Why? EMS calls there are nothing new but there have been three in as many weeks.

they call diving safe but refer to cave diving as the most dangerous sport. Here's a statistic for you. More people seem to get hauled out of Gilboa in an ambulance in a single year than all the cave diving incedents I've heard of since I've been cave diving. If they're right about cave diving being the most dangerous or even dangerous period it seems then that taking an AOW class at Gilboa is far more dangerous than that.

All we can do as responsible divers is promote good diving skills, which should always include safety first.

BTW Mike and other instructors, a question, do you feel that all divers should at the very least complete the Rescue course within a certain time frame?

If a diver is going to dive independantly it makes sense to have some rescue skills and knowledge, especially self rescue. The problem is that a lot of that has to do with awareness and spoting trouble before it gets out of hand. Most of the divers I see are busy just surviving and I don't think a rescue class will help them much. The first priority in rescue is avoidance. The best way to avoid trouble or to be prepared to deal with minor problems during a dive are to have solid basic skills. What we're seeing is divers getting hurt and killed because of panicking over silly little problems like free flows. Good basic OW level skills makes such a thing very unlikely.

And while I am on this rant should we have renewable certs?

No. Give some one good skills and info then turn them loose. If they're trained well they'll at least be aware of the need to stay sharp. We can't really tell divers the whole truth though because we might scare off the once a year diver and that's where a huge chunk of the money comes from. Instead we tell them diving is safe and they should even take their 10 year old along and we tell them that they can learn buoyancy control larter. Once I get the training I paid for I want the agency out of my shorts. I'm all for people making their own decisions but they need to have descent info to make them with and too many aren't getting it.

I review the DAN report with every student that I teach. The one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb on the report is the fact that most of the injured divers have little recent experience and poor skills (as evidence by the percentage of buoyancy control and rapid ascent reports on dives that result in injury or death). This years report states over 60% for fatalities. I didn't see the same stat this year for injuries but last years report stated over 40%. IMO, it's a lack of skill in the most very basics that get divers hurt.

TCDiver1

June 19th, 2003, 10:47 AM

Butch103 once bubbled...
......snip.......
BTW Mike and other instructors, a question, do you feel that all divers should at the very least complete the Rescue course within a certain time frame?

And while I am on this rant should we have renewable certs?

Mike,
You know your welcome up here anytime. Sorry, no caves or caverns but lots of nice wrecks .... but you already knew that.:)

Butch,
I know some will disagree with this but IMO, OW students get everything they need to be safe, entry level, divers from most OW classes. This assumes the instructor thoroughly teaches the material and skills required by their agency and the student takes those lessons to heart.
It's bad when instructors don't teach what they should but IMO, equally bad when the student pays lip service to requirements to get the c-card and then blows off the lessons learned.

As an instructor, i would love to see everyone go through a good rescue course. Even though i think OW class is currently a good entry level course, i don't think teaching some rescue skills at this level would be a bad thing either. From my experience, the students who truely get the lessons learned from OW, and want to be avid divers, understand the need learn rescue skills, whether they take a class or not.

I have been saying for a long time that diving certs need to be renewable like driver licenses. Personally, from some of the rhetoric i've been hearing lately about the safety of diving, if we don't want government to start regulating diving harder, i think we have to start making c-cards renewable. All it takes is one Senator or Rep. to make this a pet project and we get government control.
I think most of us would agree, that would be a bad thing.

Butch103

June 19th, 2003, 11:22 AM

........dam confusing , this diving industry.....

I agree that the OW course provides all needed to SAFELY dive. Perhaps some of the skills, bouyancy etc, of course need to be honed with some practice.

But as you or someone else mentioned just cause they can perform the skills, doesn't necessarily mean they will be good divers.

How do you handle students that can do the skills, therefore can pass. They are safe, just, well I dunno how to express it.

eg I told a student ( I am doing my DM training) 3 times to put on her swim fins (told her Dad the same thing) in deeper water (chest high for example) and immediately after I see her crawling across the rocks out of the water to get her mask and gloves (getting Dad's also). WHile Dad is sitting on his ass on a rock in ankle deep water putting on his fins...

They both did well intheir skills and including bouyancy, but.....oh well

MikeFerrara

June 19th, 2003, 11:44 AM

gedunk, thanks I like wrecks.

Butch103,

I had a DM candidate once who was top notch at everything except his attitude stunk. He was almost finished with everything and I wasn't getting anyplace. I called the agency and described the problem. I explained that there was nothing in the standards that clearly disqualified him. Their advice was that if I didn't feel right about signing him off that I shouldn't and they would back me. I had yet another talk with him (like the third) and he pretended to get it. He went to help with students for the last time and he was a model citizen. I signed him off. Oh, how I regret that.

Butch103

June 19th, 2003, 12:10 PM

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
[B

Butch103,

I had a DM candidate once who was top notch at everything except his attitude stunk. He was almost finished with everything and I wasn't getting anyplace. I called the agency and described the problem. I explained that there was nothing in the standards that clearly disqualified him. Their advice was that if I didn't feel right about signing him off that I shouldn't and they would back me. I had yet another talk with him (like the third) and he pretended to get it. He went to help with students for the last time and he was a model citizen. I signed him off. Oh, how I regret that. [/B]
..........I guess you sometimes just shrug your shoulders, shake your head, and really think about the theory of evolution and wonder if all of us have evolved...;)

SneakyB'tard

June 19th, 2003, 12:19 PM

Passive Natural Selection

MikeFerrara

June 19th, 2003, 12:49 PM

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...
Passive Natural Selection

It's not natural or passive. We work very hard to talk people into doing it. They almost always think diving is dangerous, expensive and requires a lot of tough training until we convince them otherwise. The we give them a lousy inadequate class and blame them if they get hurt because they didn't know what we didn't tell them.

mglasspo

June 19th, 2003, 12:56 PM

First, the other stuff :) I think making rescue part of the OW course would be idea, and maybe at the same time make advanced rescue part of AOW. Cut down on the number of courses, increase the course fees and increase safety of divers. I'd be all for that. If it is marketed well, then customers won't balk at the additional price. I'd also like to see more checkout dives added to OW.

Now on the signing DM's off, please remember when I am saying this that I am an AOW certified diver, not anything more than that, so I recognize my ignorance. As a first aid instructor, I have the right to fail any student for any reason. In fact, I have to prove that they passed, not prove that they failed. This allows a student to pass the written exam, pass the practicals and have me fail them just because I don't feel right about them. I have nearly done this twice. Both with young students who just didn't seem to get things that weren't really tested, they've been my borderline students.

My opinion, if you don't want them to by your DM, then don't make them a DM. Same with certifying OW and AOW divers, if you wouldn't want them as your buddy, don't let them be anybody's.

My humble opinion of course.

*Mike ducks and hides in the bushes and awaits the response*

MikeFerrara

June 19th, 2003, 01:52 PM

mglasspo

I can't fail a person just because I want to. According to PADI standards, if a diver meets the performance and administration requirements and pays his bill, I have seven days to get him a temporary card. If I choose not to certify a diver for something that I can't relate directly to a failure to meet the written requirements I need to be very careful and I had better be able to justify it.

I had a diver just last summer who I required to do more dives before I signed him off. He ended up calling my wife and yelling at her til she was in tears telling her according to his book he had done everything and he wanted his card. When he finally talked to me, which he didn't want to do, his tone was different but the argument was the same. I of course explained that while he attempted everything he did it poorly at best and that wasn't good enough.

TCDiver1

June 19th, 2003, 01:54 PM

Butch103 once bubbled...
........dam confusing , this diving industry.....

How do you handle students that can do the skills, therefore can pass. They are safe, just, well I dunno how to express it.

Yes it can be confusing and i think i know what your trying to get at. For example, you can teach someone that buoyancy control and trim are important, encourage them to keep working at it after they have demostrated adequate mastery of the skills but who is to say if they will continue working at it?

As their instructor, i'm not going to be with them for every dive ... it's up to them to be serious about what they learned. I don't sign off on any OW students unless i feel they have taken it seriously but i have to be honest. Few of those newly certified divers end up working on those skills or for that matter just diving after their certification. Other than not being able to motivate these people to continue diving, i don't see where i am at fault as their instructor if they demonstrated an adequate skill set and attitude during open water class.

The passive selection comment to me, is not that far off the mark in many cases. We all make mistakes, sometimes they are fatal mistakes. Some people have a hard time making good decisions at all. I see them every day, on the road, to and from work. I wonder how many of those people who pull some bonehead move on me on the road will end up in one of my classes? I try not to think about it.

I've asked this question before. Why is diving any different than any other endeavour undertaken by humans? I don't think it is ... mistakes will be made regardless of how well some are trained ... its human nature ... try and stop it and you will lose everytime IMO.

Mike, i agree with you that there is pizz-poor instruction out there, i compete against it every year. But i don't agree with you that it is all the instructors or agencies fault all the time.

TCDiver1

June 19th, 2003, 02:05 PM

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
mglasspo

I can't fail a person just because I want to. According to PADI standards, if a diver meets the performance and administration requirements and pays his bill .......

Come on Mike, you know you have plenty of latitude in defining what "mastery" is.

For those that don't know Padi requires what they call "mastery" of a skill. Defining mastery can be an interesting exercise in frustration but is simple to gig a student on most skills or exercises. You just have to do it and stick by your guns. I have refunded more than my share of class fees to students who disagreed with me.

The guy in your example sounds like he could be one of those run of the mill POS's that would complain no matter what. He goes after your wife for something you did or didn't do. Total POS move in my book.

mglasspo

June 19th, 2003, 02:06 PM

Mike,

again, for the record, I know nothing about the rules for NAUI/PADI et al. for passing students, but it seems to me like the agencies need to have a catch all inserted in there that allows an instructor to fail a student if they are not comfortable with them. I think the student you pointed out in your last post should have been a lot more patient with you, or you should have been able to fail him.

Going back to the first aid training I do, I can also technically pass someone if they fail the written exam. But generally I don't. I had a student this year fail by one mark and he was very upset at my rigidness in not granting him his certificate. But when it comes to things like that (and here's when I tie in diving) I want someone competant in all aspects when it comes to things like performing first aid, being a dive buddy in a stressful situation, etc. etc.

As far as I see it, when an instructor signs off on their c-card, they are attesting to the fact that they have been taught the theory, written the test, performed the practical skills and are competant. I am wrong here?

I know competant when I am comfortable diving with the diver within their OW limits. Maybe I'm just smoking crack.

Mike

(I know my user name is mglasspo, but just call me Mike, please.)

mglasspo

June 19th, 2003, 02:07 PM

Can you define POS for me? I think I have an idea, but want to be crystal clear.. if you need to, PM me if it's not acceptable for the conference :)

TCDiver1

June 19th, 2003, 02:16 PM

Done ... POS defined in PM Mike G.

Don't get me wrong, i agree with much of what Mike F has to say, he just gets so passionate about it sometimes. :)

MikeFerrara

June 19th, 2003, 03:03 PM

gedunk once bubbled...

Come on Mike, you know you have plenty of latitude in defining what "mastery" is.

Yes, but I really wasn't refering to "out of the book) skills. I was refering more to matters of attitude.

If a guy nails all the skills but tells me he's going to take his untrained freind and his own boat and do the Doria next week I can't refuse to certify him for it.

And I agree with you that it isn't all instructors. I do think some agencies are looking the other way though.

MikeFerrara

June 19th, 2003, 03:16 PM

mglasspo once bubbled...
Mike,

again, for the record, I know nothing about the rules for NAUI/PADI et al. for passing students, but it seems to me like the agencies need to have a catch all inserted in there that allows an instructor to fail a student if they are not comfortable with them. I think the student you pointed out in your last post should have been a lot more patient with you, or you should have been able to fail him.

Some do. I'm also an IANTD instructor and attitude is specifically listed as something to be evaluated. There is an evaluation form I fill out for each dive. In order to pass the class with the minimum number of dives the student must average a score of 8 out of 10 on all skills. With two or more dives the student can pass with an average of 6. The grading scale is, however subjective, as you would imagine. I don't know about patient...but the guy did the dives and performed the skills before he got a card. He did well when he found there was no other way.

As far as I see it, when an instructor signs off on their c-card, they are attesting to the fact that they have been taught the theory, written the test, performed the practical skills and are competant. I am wrong here?

I know competant when I am comfortable diving with the diver within their OW limits. Maybe I'm just smoking crack.

Mike

(I know my user name is mglasspo, but just call me Mike, please.)

That is what the card should mean. I don't even believe that instructors teach poor classes on purpose. They do it the way they've seen it done and don't know anything else. I have tought lousy classes but at the time I didn't know it. I was doing exactly what I was tought. I thought you were supposed to have to chase students all over on dive 1

mglasspo

June 19th, 2003, 03:34 PM

Well, if it's a matter of attitude, I think IANDT is better for that then. I personally believe the instructor should be able to fail the student that tells you he's taking his buddy diving that's not qualified. As far I see it, it's a liability NOT to be able to. They go diving, buddy dies, family finds out you knew about this before you certified, they sue you.. gotta watch your ass.

TCDiver1

June 19th, 2003, 04:03 PM

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

If a guy nails all the skills but tells me he's going to take his untrained freind and his own boat and do the Doria next week I can't refuse to certify him for it.

Sure you can Mike but i do hear what your saying. It easier said than done. Which is a major part of the problem that is out there.

If the agency takes his side over yours then i'll pack my Padi bags and be right along side of you when you leave Padi. My name is on that c-card and i take that seriously just like you do. If the agency won't take it serious, my name will no longer be on any of their c-cards. I would give that guy a refund and send him packing ... post haste ... ba-bye now ... have a nice day. The dude don't have to like it but can do nothing to you or your shop if he paid you nothing for the class.

That is an important distinction to make ... nothing paid ... no services owed. Hopefully you can assess the possible attitude problem before the class starts and route the situation before money exchanges hands so no refund is needed.