Can anyone explain why?

[bburville]

Can anyone explain why?

Dear Divers,
Having studied their u/w activity for the last 9 yrs - I have my own thoughts about their behaviour - However, I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on exactly why seals engage in activity such as this (viz isn't great due to decaying weed at specifc site)

"NOSE RUB!"
YouTube - Nose rub! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYvNLGo3Q3g)

For info this is a young female grey seal about 90kg.
Answers on a postcard please...
Thanks & safe diving,
Ben "Seal diver"
YouTube - bburville's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/bburville)

[Jeff Toorish]

Can anyone explain why?

Dear Divers,
Having studied their u/w activity for the last 9 yrs - I have my own thoughts about their behaviour - However, I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on exactly why seals engage in activity such as this (viz isn't great due to decaying weed at specifc site)

"NOSE RUB!"
YouTube - Nose rub! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYvNLGo3Q3g)

For info this is a young female grey seal about 90kg.
Answers on a postcard please...
Thanks & safe diving,
Ben "Seal diver"
YouTube - bburville's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/bburville)

When you say "studied," do you mean in a scientific way or you have anectdotally observed them?

While it looks like the seal was using some sense to determine what the diver was (food?), the real question for me is why that diver was interacting that closely with a dangerous wild animal.

I realize (to the eyes of humans, often raised watching cartoons of animals who act like people) seals are cute and very human looking mammals. But they are wild and dangerous, and just because we can easily project human-like emotions on them, that does not make them less dangerous.

Every year people are bitten, injured and sometimes killed by seals (statistics are woefully lacking becuse most people don't view seals as a threat --how could they be, they are so cute?!). Yet people persist is interacting with them in a dangerous manner.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack this thread --so upon a second look, it appears the seal is engaging in some natural behavior to gain more information, most likely in its hunt for food.

Jeff

[bburville]

Thanks Jeff,
Your comments are welcomed and interesting.

I studied marine biology (dissertation in echolocation in bottlenose dolphins) at Southampton Uni so approach the matter with a scientific interest. My observations of underwater grey seal behaviour off the NE coast of Britain have challlenged various scientific "facts" (eg that grey seal mothers abandon their pups once weaned) and has provided an insight into these creatures that few people have had the opportunity to gain.

Firstly the seal approached me. This is key here. Whenever I am near seals underwater they are 100% in control of the situation. Their ability to move in 3 dimensions leaves me far behind.

I must correct you on your assumption that grey seals are "dangerous" - certain species could be classed as more likely to cause danger if provoked (leopard / elephant seals).
Grey seals certainly have the potential to be dangerous (females average 154kg and males 230kg) BUT having spent literally hundreds of hours with them underwater I have only ever seen them behave in a very gentle manner.
If you respect them they are intelligent incredibly gentle creatures.

(I'd trust a wild 200kg grey seal up close far more than a stray 35kg domestic dog!)

Furthermore I can assure you that the seal is certainly not trying to work out if I am food. Grey seals eat sandeel, whiting, cod and a range of other fish / crustacea even but certainly have the intellect to determine that I am not on their menu.

Interestingly grey seals will often seek out such encounters for what appears to be establishing their position in a social hierarchy within a group. For want of a better term... whoever can "play" with the "diver" exerts their status and social position.

As if a "game" I have often watched a couple of young seals approach divers from behind out of sight and pull on the divers fins only to dart away when the unsuspecting diver turns to see what has caught his fin.

Sometimes I will simply lie on the seabed and a seal will choose to come and lie (as they often do to sleep/ rest) on the seabed beside me.

Should we ever interact with wild animals??

That really is an interesting question?
We can learn a great deal from them and occassionally I believe they seem to get something intangible from us.

If people really saw and knew how gentle and intelligent seals can be would there still be a Canadian Seal Hunt??

One thing for sure is that we should never use food or bait to facilitate any wild encounters. ( I never do this in the sea.... then again I leave nuts and bread for birds in the garden!)

Good debate. Take care and safe diving,
Ben "Seal diver"
www.youtube.com/bburville (http://www.youtube.com/bburville)

[montanamd]

lol because her nose is itchy and she can't reach it.
lol sorry no clue

[maged_mmh]

looks that you're having tons of fun :)

[victor]

I have followed some threads on the Californian seals and their interactions with divers.
They do seem to be fascinated by the ungainly humans who blunder through their environment.
Pulling on loose mask & fin straps etc.
Maybe post on a link Californian section and they can join in on the discussion. Doc is a regular and has had posted on this subject as have a couple of the photographers.

[Hallmac]

Should we ever interact with wild animals??

When invited, to me, the answer is yes. We are all animals, some more than others. ;)
I think what you are doing is a great way to experience life.

[sarita75]

I think interacting with sealife that is willing is okay, provided they are not a protected species. What bothers me is when people chase seals, sea lions, etc. in order to play. Whereas in the video, the touching appeared consensual and the diver seems to have done things to alleviate the stress of the seal (small movements, looking away from the creature [not staring her down], only petting as apparently permitted, and - although I don't think it is good for the diver - watching breaths).

I have had experiences where sea lions have swam up and, out of curiousity, 'kissed' me on the nose. I confess, I touched - giving a little rub just under the 'chin'. It is sweet interactions like that and this which remind me why I began diving.

This being said - I generally will not pick up sea life, harass it, etc. I don't generally believe in touching, especially when the organism does not have the capacity to move away or is apparently scared.

My 2 cents. :)

[H2Andy]

curiosity?

manatees also will come around and check you out, let you touch them

[gcbryan]

Thanks Jeff,

Your comments are welcomed and interesting.
I studied marine biology (dissertation in echolocation in bottlenose dolphins) at Southampton Uni so approach the matter with a scientific interest. My observations of underwater grey seal behaviour off the NE coast of Britain have challlenged various scientific "facts" (eg that grey seal mothers abandon their pups once weaned) and has provided an insight into these creatures that few people have had the opportunity to gain.
...


Just curious...so how have you determined that the mother doesn't abandon their pup?

Just observing a juvenile pup with an older adult doesn't mean that it's the mother.

[bburville]

An excellent question and the counter argument used by most biologists - basicallly because without DNA proof - eg samples from both, it is impossible to prove that the pup is with their mother and not a unrelated adult (as you point out)
I have seen on more than one occassion a pup (probably 6-8 weeks old) with a female adult on the rocks - then enter the water together and indeed swim togther - in one such case the pup swam at times with the female adults front flipper touching her. In this same instance the adult female actually approached me at a depth of approx. 3m (10ft) having left the pup stationary in the water a few metres behind- breathing on the surface.

The female adult came over and interacted with me briefly whilst I remained stationary. ... as if to "check me out" and "assess any risk"

Moments later the female adult returned to the waiting pup and seemed to give the pup the "OK" to "play".... which it did ! Grabbing hold of my arm with it's front flippers and swimming around me at high speed darting and nuzzling with its nose.
After a few minutes the pup and female adult again adopted a swim together formation and swam off.

Now mother and pup??? or pup and unrelated adult??

Let me ask .... You see an adult suckling a pup on the shore... mother or another adult?? Answer - could be either as allosuckling has been recorded on many occassions with grey seals. Related - likely. Very new born pup with adult female on shore .... mother ... very likely BUT how can you prove this in the abscence of DNA tests??

Interesting....

safe diving,
Ben "Seal diver"
www.youtube.com/bburville (http://www.youtube.com/bburville)

[Jeff Toorish]

This is turning into a pretty fascinating thread.

Jeff

[gcbryan]

An excellent question and the counter argument used by most biologists - basicallly because without DNA proof - eg samples from both, it is impossible to prove that the pup is with their mother and not a unrelated adult (as you point out)
I have seen on more than one occassion a pup (probably 6-8 weeks old) with a female adult on the rocks - then enter the water together and indeed swim togther - in one such case the pup swam at times with the female adults front flipper touching her. In this same instance the adult female actually approached me at a depth of approx. 3m (10ft) having left the pup stationary in the water a few metres behind- breathing on the surface.

The female adult came over and interacted with me briefly whilst I remained stationary. ... as if to "check me out" and "assess any risk"

Moments later the female adult returned to the waiting pup and seemed to give the pup the "OK" to "play".... which it did ! Grabbing hold of my arm with it's front flippers and swimming around me at high speed darting and nuzzling with its nose.
After a few minutes the pup and female adult again adopted a swim together formation and swam off.

Now mother and pup??? or pup and unrelated adult??

Let me ask .... You see an adult suckling a pup on the shore... mother or another adult?? Answer - could be either as allosuckling has been recorded on many occassions with grey seals. Related - likely. Very new born pup with adult female on shore .... mother ... very likely BUT how can you prove this in the abscence of DNA tests??

Interesting....

safe diving,
Ben "Seal diver"
www.youtube.com/bburville (http://www.youtube.com/bburville)

The argument here is getting a little loose...you can prove very little in the underwater world since you don't have the same access as on land. Therefore, in one sense you could make any assertion and claim that it's just as possible for it to be true as any other assertion. That is a particularly weak argument.

A nursing pup is likely to be nursing from it's mother perhaps not positively but likely.

The pup you are describing is perhaps not yet weaned or perhaps it is and in fact is with it's mother a little longer than is usually allowed. Or not.

I have seen harbor seal pups who have just been weaned left to their own devises and in some cases they didn't figure out how to hunt on their own and dehydrated on the beach and died. Most learn to hunt and survive. I have been diving with two larger adults and a juvenile way past the weaning stage.

If you saw it you would conclude that it was mom, pop, and junior I'm guessing. Others locally have concluded that. The mammal biologists at our local aquarium tell me that the juvenile would not be with the parents in this case but rather with one or two adults who are hunting and are more tolerant of a juvenile following them around than many/most of the other harbor seals.

I'm not saying that you are wrong or right but it's a tough call when most/all literature says that their mother leaves them after weaning which I would assume is natures way of saying now you're on your own and you need to deal with it immediately for your own survival.

In your actual example and the behaviors you've observed perhaps it is the mother and perhaps the pup isn't actually weaned...also my only experience/knowledge is with harbor seals and not grey seals.

In the case of our local harbor seals at one particular site we only see them while diving at night during the winter. Some have concluded that they migrate elsewhere during the summer. Again I'm told that they don't migrate (as in out of the area) but rather just move around locally chasing seasonal food sources.

It's an interesting subject and thanks for posting. I'm no expert here and am just contributing what little I do know.

[gcbryan]

Regarding why is it allowing you to rub it's nose or body...why does a dog or cat allow that? To me seals are very similar in their interaction to humans underwater to the way a dog reacts on land.

To the other poster...Jeff...I'd like to see where a seal of that size...not a sea lion...has ever killed a human being. Their mouth isn't that big for one thing and as was mentioned their natural food sources are fish. I agree that interacting too closely isn't a good thing and in the case of our mammals is against the law (marine mammal protection act). The infection from their bite would probably be a nasty thing as well.

In our waters however they do the interacting with us.

[bburville]

So I would welcome your thoughts and ideas about this little encounter...
Apologies for the awful u/w viz - due to decaying seaweed in the area.

Seal chat!

YouTube - Seal chat! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyNSz30GDfY)

I look forward to reading your thoughts!

Safe diving,
Ben "Seal diver"
www.youtube.com/bburville (http://www.youtube.com/bburville)

[gcbryan]

So I would welcome your thoughts and ideas about this little encounter...
Apologies for the awful u/w viz - due to decaying seaweed in the area.

Seal chat!

YouTube - Seal chat! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyNSz30GDfY)

I look forward to reading your thoughts!

Safe diving,
Ben "Seal diver"
www.youtube.com/bburville (http://www.youtube.com/bburville)
I have a slow internet connection and didn't watch the whole thing but your seals are either a whole lot tamer than our harbor seals or you've simply domesticated a seal in effect. It's interesting but I'm not so sure it's in the seals best interest. What happens when the next diver is a hunter and the seals comes right up to him (not legal here but I don't know about there) or another diver plays with the seal but doesn't have your experience and gets bitten? In any event it does seem to be changing it's behavior.

If it is just coming up to you on it's own due to curiosity I guess it's fine. It's certainly interesting. I wouldn't feel that I was doing the animal any good if I turned a wild animal into a pet though.

[bburville]

Don't be misled into thinking that there is any element of being a "pet" - these are wild seals and once they've finished spending a short time with me it will off to do whatever seals do under the sea.
I've dived with harbour (common) seals and grey seals and given enough time underwater they have all shown similar levels of curiosity. Although the smaller harbour seals tend to be more timid and you need to stay very still for a long period of time. The extent of their interactions are most definitely related to the time of year and my own thoughts are that this is in turn linked to hormonal variations.

These seals approach me. In fact I've learnt one thing for sure over the last 8 yrs is that if you go looking for them or even move towards them underwater they are unlikely to hang around for long. There are certain "behaviours" and "body language" that I have found generate particular interest. (subtle movements of hands/ fins and position in mid water, certain noises)

Can this "domesticate" them and make them more problematic for other divers - I doubt this very much. Seals (even 300kg bulls) are exceptionally cautious underwater and most of the really close interactions that I've had have occured after I've been underwater for over an hour and indeed at times several hours.

I've also learnt that seals "read" the very slightest of body movements and will only engage in this sort of interaction when they are relaxed and confident about the total lack of threat. They are inquisitive and will engage in "hide and seek" behaviour using kelp and keeping low to the seabed. (lets just clarify they are not hunting!! they are 100% aware that I am not on their menu.)

Now if you've found this interesting behaviour to date have a look at this>>

The seal on film was interacting with me before she moved a couple of metres away and began to rotate along her head to flipper axis - in effect "spinning" - this has been seen with seals caught in nets. After "spinning" at quite an incredible rate she swam over to me again.... WHY?
YouTube - Spinning seal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ho0ybn1x5s)

Safe diving,
Ben "Seal diver"
www.youtube.com/bburville (http://www.youtube.com/bburville)

[gcbryan]

Don't be misled into thinking that there is any element of being a "pet" - these are wild seals and once they've finished spending a short time with me it will off to do whatever seals do under the sea.
I've dived with harbour (common) seals and grey seals and given enough time underwater they have all shown similar levels of curiosity. Although the smaller harbour seals tend to be more timid and you need to stay very still for a long period of time. The extent of their interactions are most definitely related to the time of year and my own thoughts are that this is in turn linked to hormonal variations.

These seals approach me. In fact I've learnt one thing for sure over the last 8 yrs is that if you go looking for them or even move towards them underwater they are unlikely to hang around for long. There are certain "behaviours" and "body language" that I have found generate particular interest. (subtle movements of hands/ fins and position in mid water, certain noises)

Can this "domesticate" them and make them more problematic for other divers - I doubt this very much. Seals (even 300kg bulls) are exceptionally cautious underwater and most of the really close interactions that I've had have occured after I've been underwater for over an hour and indeed at times several hours.

I've also learnt that seals "read" the very slightest of body movements and will only engage in this sort of interaction when they are relaxed and confident about the total lack of threat. They are inquisitive and will engage in "hide and seek" behaviour using kelp and keeping low to the seabed. (lets just clarify they are not hunting!! they are 100% aware that I am not on their menu.)

Now if you've found this interesting behaviour to date have a look at this>>

The seal on film was interacting with me before she moved a couple of metres away and began to rotate along her head to flipper axis - in effect "spinning" - this has been seen with seals caught in nets. After "spinning" at quite an incredible rate she swam over to me again.... WHY?
YouTube - Spinning seal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ho0ybn1x5s)

Safe diving,
Ben "Seal diver"
www.youtube.com/bburville (http://www.youtube.com/bburville)

Yeah, I understand they are aware you're not on their menu. Regarding the spinning behavior...I've seen this once and it surprised me until I saw that it had a live salmon in it's mouth and was trying to kill it. It eventually stopped and swam off with the salmon in it's mouth.

[bburville]

I have reports of grey seals "spinning" when trapped in nets - in thick kelp and also when attacked by predators.

Any other ideas on the behaviour shown in these videos welcome????

Safe diving,
Ben "Seal diver"

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a_OLBvlFPK0/STOcjfr3YaI/AAAAAAAAAB4/6l-N8CyQZNg/s400/Ben+and+male+pup.jpg

[scstjohn]

Ben,

I don't have any of my pinneped books with me, but if my memory is correct Halichoerus grypus has a lot of physical contact with conspecifics in their underwater play. So it does not surprise me if physical contact also occur with a diver. I don't remember when they molt, but that could also be a factor in allowing a diver to 'scratch' their nose.

The common or Harbor Seal (Phoca vitulina) does NOT have a lot of physical contact with members of their species. Anyone who has seen a group hauled out on rocks or beaches will notice that there is almost always a space between them. I've observed that if one touches another, there can be a vocal display as well as a clawing at the intruder with their fore-flipper.

Stan

[Gombessa]

Great thread, and some fascinating interactions you've had! We've certainly seen a lot of "play" behavior in local harbor seals, who I'm sure see no shortage of divers. Generally, I never go as far as to extend a hand or actively reach for them, I just allow them to do whatever they want (usually, nip on fins, tug on hoods, dart all around) and put my hand up as a shield if needed. We've been buzzed and head-faked by big sea lions before, but have never seen any aggressive behavior towards us by the seals. I have seen an underwater "disagreement" between seals that had us running for cover (how much protection would a kelp holdfast really be?), but it's enough to make me happy to appreciate them from a distance when they choose to stay away.