Doubles trim issues

[wetman]

Hey all, thought i'd post this here because you guys would be familiar with this i'm quite sure.

I'm having issues with trim and doubles. I'm quite front heavy with these and need some suggestions as to how to balance it out. I'm trying to avoid ankle weights here if possible. I've put the bands as high on the tanks as possible - they're hitting the round zone.

What are some options - v weight lower on the unit? Anything else?

thanks

steve

[O-ring]

Are you arching your back?

[Epinephelus]

If you've got the bands as high as you can, and the tanks as low as possible on the backplate, and the backplate adjusted properly, and you don't need any additional weight for buoyancy, then to my mind you want the solution that adds the least additional weight to your kit as possible while solving the trim problem.
That means the longest lever arm... and that means ankle weights.
Now, if you just can't stand the thought of someone thinking you're something less than the best if you use ankle weights, then by all means use a keel weight or a DUI harness slung real low... but realize you'll have to carry more weight there (probably at least double) than you would in ankle weights. Can't get around the physics.
E.

[Uncle Pug]

...with heavy fins (jets, turtles) you can extend you feet back a little further and balance out that way.

Arching your back will help but it shouldn't be necessary to assume an uncomfortable position.

This isn't an uncommon situation when first learning to dive doubles but be encouraged... you will get it trimmed out.

I advise against ankle weights... but a small half V-weight on the lower bolt will offset the crossover manifold and extra 1st stage.... other than those two items the trim with doubles shouldn't be any different that with a single.

[wetman]

I think the arch is there - but i'll see if emphasizing it more helps.

Fact is, i've been adding small weights to my thigh pockets to figure out just how much i need. - its usually 2 - 3 pounds per pocket depending on undergarments. Which i figured may translate into 1.5 to 2 pounds at the ankle.

As far as ankle weights go, i truly dont care what others think, but i'm just looking for potential other solutions before taking the easy road.

steve

[O-ring]

wetman once bubbled...
I think the arch is there - but i'll see if emphasizing it more helps.

Fact is, i've been adding small weights to my thigh pockets to figure out just how much i need. - its usually 2 - 3 pounds per pocket depending on undergarments. Which i figured may translate into 1.5 to 2 pounds at the ankle.

As far as ankle weights go, i truly dont care what others think, but i'm just looking for potential other solutions before taking the easy road.

steve
What about throwing those on a weightbelt?

[wetman]

UP,

I've got turtles and even if i extend them fully its face plant time. Not just a little either - dive bomber time.

I do have legs that i think are a bit small in proportion to my uper body though, so i'm not sure how much difference that makes.

steve

[detroit diver]

You didn't state what kind of BP you use. If it's SS, go to an AL BP. That will take off about 5 lbs from the top of the fulcrum.

[Waterlover]

If your doing the nose dive that bad your overweight. Take the v weight out or use an AL plate....

[wetman]

Current setup - aluminum backplate and no extra weights other than the tanks and other rigging. On single pst 104s i have an ss backplate and i typically dont need weights there either - worked it down to needing none on that rig with either drysuit or wetsuit/skin.

No vweight or anything else currently used. If i wasnt such a chiselled rock of a man, this might not be an issue :) (it may be hidden by a layer of baby fat however, but i'm SURE its in there)

And as far as nose dives, its not a nose dive down, its very much a quick pivot .

I absolutely hate the idea of adding weights to this setup. Its killed me to even experiment in the pockets but i realize i have little choice i think.

steve

[O-ring]

You used to dive single 104s with an SS bp and needed no weights with your drysuit. You switched to an AL plate (roughly 4-5 lbs gone) and doubled up your 104s?

If this is the case, by my estimation, you are going to be overweighted. You only knocked off 4-5#s but added another first stage, bands, a manifold, and another 104. If that's all you are diving, there ain't many places to lighten up...interesting dilemma...

[Uncle Pug]

... is that you will never be able to successfully dive doubles... give up and go back to singles.

Just kidding! You will get it... it is a postural thing and you don't need to add a bunch of fixes.

BTW... I seriously doubt that you are overweighted... especially if you are diving an Al backplate.

[wetman]

See thats the problem. Cant really lighten up, tanks shifted, hate the thought of adding weights, down to my lightest undies (well, not the lacy ones yet). I'm only diving doubles for the next two months though, so hopefully get it figured out in that time frame. This weekend i think i'll take the camera out and get my buddy to film me to check posture issues and maybe post something for some suggestions.

The one thing i do like about doubles though is that when you put the single 104s back on it feels like you could run a marathon with them. I cant imagine what an al80 would feel like.

steve

[O-ring]

wetman once bubbled...
See thats the problem. Cant really lighten up, tanks shifted, hate the thought of adding weights, down to my lightest undies (well, not the lacy ones yet). I'm only diving doubles for the next two months though, so hopefully get it figured out in that time frame. This weekend i think i'll take the camera out and get my buddy to film me to check posture issues and maybe post something for some suggestions.

The one thing i do like about doubles though is that when you put the single 104s back on it feels like you could run a marathon with them. I cant imagine what an al80 would feel like.

steve
It's the same thing once you start carrying stages/deco bottles. Once you take them off you feel like an eel in just a set of doubles..

[Northeastwrecks]

Could it be that you are not head heavy, but feet light?

I use gators with my Trilam. If I don't, air goes to my feet and makes trim much more difficult.

I found out the hard way that gators need to be tight in order for them to work. For that reason, I swapped my large Halcyons for a pair of mediums (I'm 6'3", 260 lbs and the gators are the only thing I own that is a size medium). They are somewhat tight, but they work well.

[Braunbehrens]

I am pretty sure that NEWrecks is right. Try getting vertical in the water to get ALL the air out of your legs. Then get horizontal again, but cheat a little bit. Drop your knees just slightly so that no air can go past your waist to you feet.

This should tell you if the problem has to do with air in the feet. Chances are it is, especially if you are diving 104's!

Let us know how it works out...

[JoeH]

You and others may throw this idea out rather quickly.... I can understand. I talked to a guy last week at a dive site that flipped his tanks upside down for the same reason you are stating..... more weight at the manifold area of the tanks.
This may need to be in another thread, but what are the negatives in doing this. I know he liked it. For one he could reach his valves much easier and better trim for his situation.

[Braunbehrens]

We just went over this, check the recent threads.

[SimonN]

Steve,

I'm short legged, stumpy and barrel-ish chested too. I used to have perfect trim with my A P Valves Buddy TekWing (i.e. abs backpack), but with my new SS Plate and wing, and therefore 6lbs higher up, I do feel a bit top heavy when I have the tanks in a position where I can reach the valves with ease and find it difficult to relax when horizontal. This is with my new scubapro jetfins as well.

I'd only done 3 dives with this config before the weekend just gone, but over said weekend, I discovered I was a bit to positive when I took the cylinders below 50 bar. The extra 3lbs I have used to compensate for this seems to have helped.

I'm not discounting the fact that I am just getting used to new gear after 200 or so dives with the tekwing.

One thing I can say is forget about the v-weight thing, you need weight lower down than that i.e. weight belt.

I too am determined no to go the route of the ankle weights, luckily I still have the option of an AL back plate.

I'll let you know how I get on.

[Diverl]

Something you may want to try is holding your hands out in front of you. This should help trap a little air in the upper portion of your dry suit and keep the air out of your feet.

It worked for me, just my .02 Cents.
:)

[wetman]

Ok, some success today, but it was something i rather hadnt thought about. I had my straps fairly even. But apparently my my neck muscles arent quite even and the tanks were sitting slightly askew. I went with no weights in the pocket for some time but obviously still had a few issues, but my list the the left was huge - i'd stay still in the water and basically rotated to the left side very quickly if i didnt correct it. Then i asked the guys i was with if they saw anything obvious and my tanks were slightly leaning to the left. Fixed it up on the next dive an all seemed much much better. However, i traded boots with a guy to try his bare boots but they were too big and my fins felt like they were floppy volos for that dive so pretty much useless. Hopefully tomorrow all will be well. I know when my balance is right cause i can go backwards when it is and cant for the life of me go backwards when it isnt. Its pretty much my acid test. This could be a good weekend...

steve