Pony bottle & recreational diving...Need input...

[DC53]

I’m in a bit of a quandary. I have 38 dives now and am taking AOW. My instructor whom I like but who is a self confessed minimalist – doesn’t want glow sticks in night dive training for example), also does not like the 19 cu ft pony I usually wear attached to my main steel 100 with a “x bracket”, with a small Aeris Ion regulator clipped to the BCD. It’s a lot of comfort to me as a newer diver even though I have no intention at this time to exceed any of the recreational diver limits. He says I can keep it on if I must but he would prefer than within rec diving limits I minimize extra gear, trust what I have (Oceanic Delta 4 primary reg, never diving in water below 47 degrees), stay streamlined, etc. I have good air consumption – usually below 0.50 cu ft/min, often around 0.45 unless I am working hard on something, so I don’t have a lot of good arguments to keep it except for “what if” and “I take comfort in it”. Opinions?

[awap]

It's your decision, not his. While a yellow buddy may have many limitations, you always know where it is.

[NorthWoodsDiver]

Its your choice not his.

[captain]

I’m in a bit of a quandary. I have 38 dives now and am taking AOW. My instructor whom I like but who is a self confessed minimalist – doesn’t want glow sticks in night dive training for example), also does not like the 19 cu ft pony I usually wear attached to my main steel 100 with a “x bracket”, with a small Aeris Ion regulator clipped to the BCD. It’s a lot of comfort to me as a newer diver even though I have no intention at this time to exceed any of the recreational diver limits. He says I can keep it on if I must but he would prefer than within rec diving limits I minimize extra gear, trust what I have (Oceanic Delta 4 primary reg, never diving in water below 47 degrees), stay streamlined, etc. I have good air consumption – usually below 0.50 cu ft/min, often around 0.45 unless I am working hard on something, so I don’t have a lot of good arguments to keep it except for “what if” and “I take comfort in it”. Opinions?

I like your instructor's philosophy. Proper air management is the key. If you can't manage your air usage so you don't run out you shouldn't be diving.
Failure of properly maintained equipment is almost unheard of. In 50 years of diving I have never run out of air or had an equipment failure. There is reliability in simplicity.

[Brewski]

Your gear, your choice.
I personally don't like extra unnecessary additions to a dive, and a pony for a typical recreation dive with a good buddy in my opinion is unnecessary. I do dive with buddies who have aspirations of going technical and they take ponies with them to adjust to the gear configuration, for that purpose fine, but just to carry an extra tank because you have no confidence in your gear on a rec dive not necessary IMHO.

[awap]

Failure of properly maintained equipment is almost unheard of.

So. with good gas management, you will ALMOST always be fine.

But I do agree that the pony is not a replacement for good gas planning and management.

[peterbj7]

I agree with pretty well everything that has been said. But I believe in simplicity and reliability of equipment used, not in simply dispensing with equipment you probably won't use. No-one ever died from having too much air.

The fact that you have posted here does suggest though that you and your instructor don't have much of a rapport. I'd suggest you look around for another instructor, one you really can understand and get along with, who can answer your questions even before you've asked them, so you don't feel the need to write for advice to forums such as these.

[Cave Bum]

Another vote for 'your gear, your choice'.

This is not a 'one-size-fits-all' world despite what some diving philosophies would have you believe.

When I teach open water, I teach my students that running to a buddy in an emergency should be the very last of your options. That buddy, if they are as new to diving as you are, will probalby be very panicked and it's 'iffy' at best. Learn to solve underwater problems underwater and learn to depend on your own abilities...

...which is exactly what you're doing!

Your instructor is following what he's been taught is the best way. That's opinion... his not yours!

Carry on with what you're doing, your doing great...

PS-I'd check around for another instructor, one that has the same philosophy as you... just a thought...

Be safe and have fun in the water! Bruce

[Buoyant1]

If you are diving in colder water, and there is a chance of free-flow, I like my chances better with a pony. (i.e. poo poo happens) I don't think it has anything to do with your air consumption, but I like knowing I have an extra 40cf to breathe in certain situations (and have used it) but the security of it in colder water was a big factor in my decision to dive with one.

I also carry it on deeper dives in warmer water as a contingency for anything "Murphy's Law" related.

I agree with those that said "your decision".

[GrumpyOldGuy]

There is nothing really wrong with your AOW instructor promoting a minimalist ideal. There are good reasons many divers follow this idea and being open to understanding why he follows this is a good learning experience. Many divers slide into thinking gear will solve all issues. Learn why this is not true and then you can decide on your own the best gear for your situation.

Its only an AOW class, it too shall pass and I would not get too worked up either way. Hopefully, he is not crossig over into being actively critical of your gear choices, as others have pointed it in the end it is your choice.

[Nemrod]

Why pay an instructor if you are intending to disregard his/her guidance? I see it often, newer divers with every gizmo and trinket the retail dive store they frequent has on their display rack. The OP may not fit this category but his instructor probably has seen the overly outfitted diver many times and is trying to impart a little wisdom.

Why shouldn't the instructor be critical of improper gear, incorrectly rigged or utilized gear or gear being used as a crutch to replace a skill. After all he is trying to increase the student divers knowledge and skill level. Being uneasy in the water and therefore carrying a plethora of redundant and extra gear to assuage these undefined fears is a skill/experience problem issue that the instructor may be trying to address.

N

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Personally, I'll never dive below 60 feet without a pony again. Too many things can go wrong. Having "good buddy's" isn't always an option if you go somewhere on your own: you get who you get. In Seattle, losing a buddy isn't particularly difficult when current picks up and vis is bad. In Ontario, freeze-ups are a serious concern (serious enough that someone on here said in the spring months one of the dive shops required redundancy just to enter the water from their boats).

The other thing I like is I can do realistic gas management. Unfortunately getting me and a buddy to the surface from 100 feet safely in a panicked situation could take up to 2000PSI of an AL-80: No way I can abort the dive after only 1000PSI. Most people won't do this, so they intentionally don't properly manage gas.

I'd at least use it for the deep dive.

[tomboyy]

I’m in a bit of a quandary. I have 38 dives now and am taking AOW. My instructor whom I like but who is a self confessed minimalist – doesn’t want glow sticks in night dive training for example), also does not like the 19 cu ft pony I usually wear attached to my main steel 100 with a “x bracket”, with a small Aeris Ion regulator clipped to the BCD. It’s a lot of comfort to me as a newer diver even though I have no intention at this time to exceed any of the recreational diver limits. He says I can keep it on if I must but he would prefer than within rec diving limits I minimize extra gear, trust what I have (Oceanic Delta 4 primary reg, never diving in water below 47 degrees), stay streamlined, etc. I have good air consumption – usually below 0.50 cu ft/min, often around 0.45 unless I am working hard on something, so I don’t have a lot of good arguments to keep it except for “what if” and “I take comfort in it”. Opinions?

Thats mighty nice of him.

Air consumption has nothing to do with a "Pony" except maybe when picking what size pony to buy.

There are the camps that will argue against a Pony and camps that will side with the Pony.

Read all you can on the subject, get Opinions from people you trust and in the end dive how YOU want to dive.

[TC]

I like your instructor's philosophy. Proper air management is the key. If you can't manage your air usage so you don't run out you shouldn't be diving.
Failure of properly maintained equipment is almost unheard of. In 50 years of diving I have never run out of air or had an equipment failure. There is reliability in simplicity.


I've had a (properly maintained) low pressure hose burst during a dive.

Equipment failures are not "almost unheard of", uncommon possibly, but they do happen.

Oh, and it didn't turn into an emergency or even much of a problem that day because I was wearing my pony. :D

[Nemrod]

I've had a (properly maintained) low pressure hose burst during a dive.

Equipment failures are not "almost unheard of", uncommon possibly, but they do happen.

Oh, and it didn't turn into an emergency or even much of a problem that day because I was wearing my pony. :D

If it burst how do you define "properly maintained?" Hoses don't just burst without a cause. Was it kinked, tugged, pulled on, had it been over pressured or was it old? Any of those things are reasons to reject a hose for continued use and replace with a new one. Those of us who eschew multiple levels of complex redundancy and instead replace it with reliable and simple components include equipment maintenance and INSPECTION as part of our system. That might explain why Captain has never had any equipment failures.

N

[captain]

So. with good gas management, you will ALMOST always be fine.And your point is.
I have stated my personal experience and that is what I base my opinion on. Properly maintained breathing equipment will very very rarely fail of it own accord.

How much air is enough? In reality it is an unlimited amount. 19 extra cu/ft might be not be enough but 30 cu/ft could be or not.
Pick a number you feel will get you by 100% of the time no matter what the circumstance.

We are talking recreation limits here and in that setting I don't feel a pony is a necessary piece of gear.

[The Great Kazoo]

If it burst how do you define "properly maintained?" Hoses don't just burst without a cause. Was it kinked, tugged, pulled on, had it been over pressured or was it old? Any of those things are reasons to reject a hose for continued use and replace with a new one. Those of us who eschew multiple levels of complex redundancy and instead replace it with reliable and simple components include equipment maintenance and INSPECTION as part of our system. That might explain why Captain has never had any equipment failures.

N

That is like saying a Brand New Corvette will not break down. Mine did on the way home from the Dealer. Shtuff happens.

[tomboyy]

If it burst how do you define "properly maintained?" Hoses don't just burst without a cause. Was it kinked, tugged, pulled on, had it been over pressured or was it old? Any of those things are reasons to reject a hose for continued use and replace with a new one. Those of us who eschew multiple levels of complex redundancy and instead replace it with reliable and simple components include equipment maintenance and INSPECTION as part of our system. That might explain why Captain has never had any equipment failures.

N

Its called manufactures defects... happens all the time

[Nemrod]

Its called manufactures defects... happens all the time

Not really, it does not happen "all the time" which is the point. As well, you can inspect your equipment for manufactures defects and the majority of failures are not manufacture defects but incurred damage.

N

[Nemrod]

That is like saying a Brand New Corvette will not break down. Mine did on the way home from the Dealer. Shtuff happens.

That is why some of us buy Honda and Toyota, hell will freeze over before I will buy a vehicle from Guberment Motors. You guys just need to upgrade your equipment perhaps.

Guberment Motors business vision = building crappy cars that people do not want to buy that Obama tells them to produce to pay for UAW retirement benefits they don't deserve but get because they bought and paid for Obama.

N

[peterbj7]

Not really, it does not happen "all the time" which is the point. As well, you can inspect your equipment for manufactures defects and the majority of failures are not manufacture defects but incurred damage.

N

You're speaking from experience? I am when I say I've had brand new hoses fail on their first use, with no visible flaw other than the actual rupture. I've even had several hoses blow out of the crimped metal ends as soon as they're pressurised. And the problem seems to be regardless of make.

[Cave Bum]

That is why some of us buy Honda and Toyota, hell will freeze over before I will buy a vehicle from Guberment Motors. You guys just need to upgrade your equipment perhaps.

Your points, which seem to me to be 'the instructor is always right, papa knows best, do exactly as you're told...' ring just a little false with me.

You're welcome to your opinions... as are the rest of us... state what you believe in as opposed to trying to tear down what everyone else says... Just a thought...

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Your points, which seem to me to be 'the instructor is always right, papa knows best, do exactly as you're told...' ring just a little false with me.

Especially since everything in diving seems to be a debate, even among professionals/experts/veterans, whatever.

Newer divers have a lot to learn from experienced divers, but unless something is a consensus among experienced divers, it's just one man's opinion.

[peterbj7]

That is why some of us buy Honda and Toyota, hell will freeze over before I will buy a vehicle from Guberment Motors. You guys just need to upgrade your equipment perhaps.

Guberment Motors business vision = building crappy cars that people do not want to buy that Obama tells them to produce to pay for UAW retirement benefits they don't deserve but get because they bought and paid for Obama.

N

Rather off the point, but I know people with Honda, Toyota and Mercedes cars who've had apparently unprovoked major catastrophic engine failures in the first two years of ownership. I had a Ford myself on which a major front suspension member bent upwards (ie in line with suspension travel, not produced by any sort of abnormal impact).

Much modern equipment isn't made very well. Scuba is no different. I stopped selling one brand of computer when I had 50% dead in the box.

[diverdown78]

Personally, I'll never dive below 60 feet without a pony again. Too many things can go wrong. Having "good buddy's" isn't always an option if you go somewhere on your own: you get who you get. In Seattle, losing a buddy isn't particularly difficult when current picks up and vis is bad. In Ontario, freeze-ups are a serious concern (serious enough that someone on here said in the spring months one of the dive shops required redundancy just to enter the water from their boats).

The other thing I like is I can do realistic gas management. Unfortunately getting me and a buddy to the surface from 100 feet safely in a panicked situation could take up to 2000PSI of an AL-80: No way I can abort the dive after only 1000PSI. Most people won't do this, so they intentionally don't properly manage gas.

I'd at least use it for the deep dive.i couldnt agree more with this comment

[Nemrod]

Or perhaps you need to need to upgrade your thinking... there is not 'One and Only One Way to Dive'.

Your points, which seem to me to be 'the instructor is always right, papa knows best, do exactly as you're told...' ring just a little false with me.

You're welcome to your opinions... as are the rest of us... state what you believe in as opposed to trying to tear down what everyone else says... Just a thought...

Because I am not agreeing with you then you take it as "tearing down" just as you attempt to "tear down" what I say. The simple thing is that your opinion is no more valid than mine and the current equipment based solutions that are in vogue apparently leave something to be desired since as you admit, the equipment is apparently not reliable nor can be inspected for defect per your statement.

As to the instructor, again, why pay for instruction if you don't like what you are being told, if you already know more than the instructor why are you enrolling? :rofl3:

Maybe you need better equipment that is more reliable, perhaps if those LP hoses are so unreliable you should eliminate them or at least as many as possible rather than adding more of them to the system.

N

[Nemrod]

You're speaking from experience? I am when I say I've had brand new hoses fail on their first use, with no visible flaw other than the actual rupture. I've even had several hoses blow out of the crimped metal ends as soon as they're pressurised. And the problem seems to be regardless of make.

Then you need to eliminate the hoses that fail so frequently.

N

[peterbj7]

I didn't say in my original answer to the OP, but in Britain use of ponies is very common. Most of our diving is very hardcore compared with what a lot of American recreational divers do, certainly the warm water ones, and it's invaluable to have that extra reserve of air. It isn't unknown for regulators to freeze up, and having your own pony allows you to stop using your main reg for a while to allow it to unfreeze (as often happens).

I also didn't say though someone else did that you should try to be self-sufficient in the water. Don't rely on your buddy, because one day your buddy won't be there. In case any DIR types want to jump in, I'm not talking about more serious diving where you could only safely do it as a member of a team - in which case team rules apply - but for the bulk of recreational diving which most people do NOT conduct that way.

[Nemrod]

Or perhaps you need to need to upgrade your thinking... there is not 'One and Only One Way to Dive'.

Your points, which seem to me to be 'the instructor is always right, papa knows best, do exactly as you're told...' ring just a little false with me.

You're welcome to your opinions... as are the rest of us... state what you believe in as opposed to trying to tear down what everyone else says... Just a thought...

You and your buds make a career out of "tearing down" everybody who does not agree with you. You don't like me because I call you on it and you then try to name call and place your faults on those you don't agree with. Look in the mirror.

N

[peterbj7]

Then you need to eliminate the hoses that fail so frequently.

N

Don't be ridiculous. Read what I said. I know no make available down here that doesn't fail from time to time.

[Coldwater_Canuck]

As to the instructor, again, why pay for instruction if you don't like what you are being told, if you already know more than the instructor why are you enrolling? :rofl3:

While there is some validity to this, the OP is taking AOW, not a course in minimal diving. I'm sure on navigation, night diving, etc. they will listen to the instructor's advice. Just because you take a course doesn't mean you need to agree with everything the instructor says. In fact, there is a certain danger to doing this. With many things, there isn't consensus, so if you base how you dive simply on the opinion of one instructor, you are making decisions on one opinion instead of researching everything and deciding for yourself.

While I understand an instructor will give advice on diving in general, whether or not he dives with a pony isn't particularly relevant to the course he's in.

[peterbj7]

I agree. The OP is doing exactly what he should be doing, especially at his stage of training but throughout his diving career, which is questioning "accepted wisdom". I feel that he would currently be better served changing instructor, partly (mainly) because his present instructor seems to be prescriptive - you WILL do things my way. There are many ways of doing most things scuba and you can make up your own mind which path to follow, so long as you get the basic principles of safety and functionality firmly embedded in your brain. It frightens me when I see people who are wholly devoted to following a highly prescriptive method of selecting and configuring equipment. I somehow feel that if anything external happens to upset their very comfortable personal applecarts they'll be totally lost, and an accident waiting to happen.

[Cave Bum]

Voluntarily withdrawn

[Nemrod]

Don't be ridiculous. Read what I said. I know no make available down here that doesn't fail from time to time.

Define "time to time" as in once per dive, once per year, once per lifetime? If you are having frequent LP hoses failures then you are having a problem that you need to get to the bottom of before somebody gets hurt.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/Scuba%20Stuff/DSCF0003.jpg

No LP hoses here, only one stage, no internal parts exposed to seawater, only one O ring and it is not needed, utterly reliable, an extreme example and not the solution you seek but elimination of failure prone equipment is a valid means of improving overall function and safety, at least as much as is adding multiple layers of equipment to compensate for the added faults that added equipment presents. :shakehead:

N

[Nemrod]

No, I state only what I feel is the positive.

The only exception to that has been with one poster who I feel is a danger to other divers on this board who is offering to guide divers in places like Alachua and Diepolder when he's not even qualified to dive there himself.

STATE THE POSITIVE, let others state their point of view and let the reader make up their own mind.

What you "feel" is positive, in other words if you say it then it is OK but if anyone disagrees with a specific or general thought of yours then it is a negative---go look in the mirror. N

[peterbj7]

I have had failures, sometimes none in a month, sometimes 5 in a week, of several different brands of hoses all marketed as coming from the USA, all the brands imported here. Sometimes it's possible to see tiny holes in the rubber straight out of the box, usually there's absolutely no clue. It isn't usually a frequent occurrence but it does happen far more than it should. I don't recall these sorts of failures ever until the last few years.

If you can offer a practical solution for me other than buying several different makes and swapping them out at the first signs of trouble I'd be grateful to hear it.

[Cave Bum]

Voluntarily wtihdrawn

[Nemrod]

I have had failures,------

If you can offer a practical solution for me other than buying several different makes and swapping them out at the first signs of trouble I'd be grateful to hear it.

Yes, you should swap out or remove from service for evaluation and repair any gear showing signs of trouble be they "first signs" or second signs or whatever signs.

N

[Nemrod]

Ahhh, I see... there's the problem... Is english you first language?

A positive statement is: "I believe the sun is going to rise in the east tomorrow!".

A negative statement is: "You're wrong, you idiot, IT'S NOT GOING TO RISE IN THE EAST!!!!!! How many times do I have to go over this with you????"

Can you see the difference now, by comparing the two? Positive vs. negative?

Again, read what you said and then go look in the mirror.

I did not ask you to go over anything with me so please "feel" free not to anymore. Does that answer your question?

You simply don't like my statements because they don't always conform to your brand of thinking or accepted scuba dogma and therefore you "feel" the need to explain to me why I am wrong and you are right.

N

[tomboyy]

Ya gotta keep em seperated:D

[awap]

Define "time to time" as in once per dive, once per year, once per lifetime? If you are having frequent LP hoses failures then you are having a problem that you need to get to the bottom of before somebody gets hurt.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/Scuba%20Stuff/DSCF0003.jpg

No LP hoses here, only one stage, no internal parts exposed to seawater, only one O ring and it is not needed, utterly reliable, an extreme example and not the solution you seek but elimination of failure prone equipment is a valid means of improving overall function and safety, at least as much as is adding multiple layers of equipment to compensate for the added faults that added equipment presents. :shakehead:

N

I don't know of any scuba regulators (modern, vintage, or tween) that could really be called failure prone. Although I'm sure there are a number of associated gadgets that many divers have rejected due to reliability problems. But whatever the failure rate is (1 in 1,000 to 1 in 100,000) adding a completely redundant gas supply essentially doubles the zeros in the denominator.

I don't carry my pony often. Shallow and/or with my wife/buddy, I just don't need it. But deeper and solo it is with me. It is extremely unlikely that I will need it. But the very slight burden of carrying it is worth the risk reduction to me.

[The Great Kazoo]

deleted

[captain]

Its called manufactures defects... happens all the time

Which bring up a good point. Most of those type defect failures happen soon after the item is put into use. I would trust a 5 year old hose that has made many dives more than a brand new one.

[Nemrod]

If you have an instructor (not necessarily even scuba) and you don't like what you are being told, suggested or how you are critiqued and you are paying for it then go get an instructor that will tell you only what you want to hear and in that way you will always be guaranteed to never have you self esteem questioned, your opinion or logic dissected and of course you will never be exposed to any new ways of thinking, any new approaches to a problem, no novel solutions or ever learn anything new or different from what you already know. Never do anything different or consider other possibilities--in this thread -- the only solution to the equipment problem(s) both real and imagined is just to get and carry more equipment. Seems like a plan. Why would I ever question such dogma?

N

[Nemrod]

Deleted by me. Thank you.

[Rhone Man]

If you think your anxiety level will rise if you dive without a pony, then you should carry one. They can be a hassle, but it doesn't follow that because your (current) instructor has a minimalist philosophy you should too. You have to find your own path.

[The Great Kazoo]

deleted

[Cave Bum]

It seems to me the essence of this discussion has gotten down to:

“Do we want to train thinking, situationally aware divers that can solve their own problems underwater (or more importantly can make their own decisions) or do we want to make ‘cookie cutter copies’ of the instructor”

I can’t teach (or even think of) every possible situation my students (or even me, myself, for that matter) could get into to place them in jeopardy. For me to teach them the skills they need to survive in an alien environment that requires life support equipment, I feel I need to teach them how to ‘think their way out of a problem’. (I believe that's called problem solving, if I’m not mistaken… :))

I want my students to be able to:

“Use their superior intellect to avoid situations in which their superior skill would be required”

...but even so that doesn’t always work and sometimes they have to get themselves out of deep doo-doo. I want them to be able to figure out how to do that 'on the fly'. I want them to be able to think for themselves!

When I was learning to teach flying one of the most important lessons my instructor taught me, one that had far reaching benefits in life, not just aviation, was this. To do something well you need to know one good way to do that task. To teach something well, you need to be able to see all paths that will lead to success and mentor students down the one that is natural for them. The other side of the coin is you have be able to turn someone from a path that won't work to one that will and that fits with the way they think.

There is a difference between being able to do something well and being able to teach something well.

I prefer thinking, situationally aware divers, not only as students but as dive buddies.

Be safe and have fun in the water! Bruce

PS-This is an example of ‘stating the positive', it doesn't say 'so-n-so is wrong', it says 'this is what I believe'.

[peterbj7]

Yes, you should swap out or remove from service for evaluation and repair any gear showing signs of trouble be they "first signs" or second signs or whatever signs.

N

Which is what I do, and have been saying (implying) I do.....

[peterbj7]

“Use their superior intellect to avoid situations in which their superior skill would be required”

Reminds me of what I learned in flying. "A good pilot can almost always get out of trouble. A REALLY good pilot avoids getting into trouble in the first place".

[Cave Bum]

Reminds me of what I learned in flying. "A good pilot can almost always get out of trouble. A REALLY good pilot avoids getting into trouble in the first place".

So, based on my statement above of "... when I was learning to teach flying...", guess where I stole that from... :rofl3:

My version was one of my instructors favorites... (just substitute 'pilot' for 'diver').

[peterbj7]

If you have an instructor (not necessarily even scuba) and you don't like what you are being told, suggested or how you are critiqued and you are paying for it then go get an instructor that will tell you only what you want to hear and in that way you will always be guaranteed to never have you self esteem questioned, your opinion or logic dissected and of course you will never be exposed to any new ways of thinking, any new approaches to a problem, no novel solutions or ever learn anything new or different from what you already know. Never do anything different or consider other possibilities--in this thread -- the only solution to the equipment problem(s) both real and imagined is just to get and carry more equipment. Seems like a plan. Why would I ever question such dogma?

N

I have rarely seen an argument that better takes a perfectly acceptable premise, one that most people involved in the discussion clearly agree with, and then twists it to the most illogical conclusion. I don't think anyone here has suggested what you conclude, and indeed only an idiot would. What are you trying to prove? That you're an argumentative SOB? Because most of us have already concluded that.

Actually, I've decided you must be a troll, saying the most outrageous things in the hope of tricking someone into agreeing with you. Go on, you've been rumbled - you really are trolling, aren't you?!

[Coldwater_Canuck]

If you have an instructor (not necessarily even scuba) and you don't like what you are being told, suggested or how you are critiqued and you are paying for it then go get an instructor that will tell you only what you want to hear and in that way you will always be guaranteed to never have you self esteem questioned, your opinion or logic dissected and of course you will never be exposed to any new ways of thinking, any new approaches to a problem, no novel solutions or ever learn anything new or different from what you already know.
Okay here's the problem: the instructor the OP mentions is against recreational pony's: fine. However, I know my dive shop lists courses by a bunch of instructors. One has "pony bottle" under "recommended equipment" for her courses; another guy lists "pony bottle" as required equipment for a recreational wreck course, my OW instructor had his second stage going to a pony bottle, my AOW instructor said it was a good idea: so it's clearly not a consensus.

I don't really get what you're saying here. Is it if you don't agree with 100% of what your instructor tells you, you need to find someone else? Because the OP may have an awesome instructor who he will learn a ton from but disagrees with this one particular thing, yet this post suggests to me he's being told to find another instructor or just do what he's told.

As a new diver, I appreciate any opinions and knowledge from more experienced divers. But I use these to try and form my own opinions and techniques, not to be a carbon copy of my instructor.

I'm also curious, would your arguments be the same if you were on the other side of the argument? In other words, if the instructor was telling students they had to buy a pony, would you be saying "you don't like what you are being told, suggested or how you are critiqued and you are paying for it then go get an instructor that will tell you only what you want to hear"?


Never do anything different or consider other possibilities--in this thread -- the only solution to the equipment problem(s) both real and imagined is just to get and carry more equipment. Seems like a plan. Why would I ever question such dogma?
N
It's pretty easy to knock down an argument no one ever made: this is a nice straw man if I ever saw one.

[Cave Bum]

I hope my karma didn’t run over anybody's dogma here… :rofl3:

(I've always wanted to use that line!)

Just trying to lighten it up... Okay, now, seriously, back on topic...

[TC]

If it burst how do you define "properly maintained?" Hoses don't just burst without a cause. Was it kinked, tugged, pulled on, had it been over pressured or was it old? Any of those things are reasons to reject a hose for continued use and replace with a new one. Those of us who eschew multiple levels of complex redundancy and instead replace it with reliable and simple components include equipment maintenance and INSPECTION as part of our system. That might explain why Captain has never had any equipment failures.

N
It was inspected regularly, properly cleaned after every dive and stored & transported without kinking. Only a couple of years old. Never overpressured.

Sorry but thats a weak attempt to blame the failure on my lack of care- not going to happen, the hose was properly cared for. Please don't make assumptions in order to make my example fit into your flawed theory.

Sometimes there are defects in manufacture or non-visible damage that simply can't be predicted.

[captain]

I have had failures, sometimes none in a month, sometimes 5 in a week, of several different brands of hoses all marketed as coming from the USA, all the brands imported here. Sometimes it's possible to see tiny holes in the rubber straight out of the box, usually there's absolutely no clue. It isn't usually a frequent occurrence but it does happen far more than it should. I don't recall these sorts of failures ever until the last few years.

If you can offer a practical solution for me other than buying several different makes and swapping them out at the first signs of trouble I'd be grateful to hear it.

If you truly had that many failures I suggest you get out from under the black cloud over your head or give up diving.

[Cave Bum]

If you truly had that many failures I suggest you get out from under the black cloud over your head or give up diving.

Or capitolize on it...

The Rouses named their business... 'Black Cloud Scuba' because of similar issues they had with their gear...

[dirtydon]

you own a pony bottle,use it.be a well trained buddy.and have one.be safe,be comfortable,have fun.that is what this sport is about.don,t worry about what anyone else thinks,its your life not theirs.

[Nemrod]

I have rarely seen an argument that better takes a perfectly acceptable premise, one that most people involved in the discussion clearly agree with, and then twists it to the most illogical conclusion. I don't think anyone here has suggested what you conclude, and indeed only an idiot would. What are you trying to prove? That you're an argumentative SOB? Because most of us have already concluded that.

Actually, I've decided you must be a troll, saying the most outrageous things in the hope of tricking someone into agreeing with you. Go on, you've been rumbled - you really are trolling, aren't you?!

When people start name calling or whatever you call what you are doing, I think it says something about them. However, I know you are just angry therefore I will not take it as indicative of anything further. I will therefore go ahead an apologize to you for causing you to become angry, I know it is not in your character to do so.

If a diver is having so many equipment failures as has been claimed in this thread something is wrong somewhere and it has nothing to do with me. Maybe you spilled some salt or a black cat walked in front of you, something is wrong.

BTW, those uniformly distributed small holes you see in hoses are supposed to be there and are not a defect.

N

[Cave Bum]

I don't know of any scuba regulators (modern, vintage, or tween) that could really be called failure prone. Although I'm sure there are a number of associated gadgets that many divers have rejected due to reliability problems. But whatever the failure rate is (1 in 1,000 to 1 in 100,000) adding a completely redundant gas supply essentially doubles the zeros in the denominator.

I don't carry my pony often. Shallow and/or with my wife/buddy, I just don't need it. But deeper and solo it is with me. It is extremely unlikely that I will need it. But the very slight burden of carrying it is worth the risk reduction to me.

I've been told, in discussions of tank reliability, specifically in the 6351-T6 material issue, that the reason the government didn’t feel a recall was necessary was that due to extensive inspection of scuba equipment, ‘almost’ all defects are detected prior to them becoming a problem.

To a point these extensive inspections of scuba equipment is the industry making agreements/contracts with it’s self. Having said that, it’s also the main reason we don’t see more problems with defective equipment killing divers. We overinspect scuba equipment to a point of changing the statistics! Well, that and training and redundancy.

Still there are failures.

I do an extensive amount of solo cave diving. My 'pony bottle' is an AL72. I test the quantity of gas regularly to be sure I am diving within the 'self rescue' range of the bottle -ie- I'll get to the maximum penetration, and decide "I haven't tested my escape gas consumption in a while, today would be a good day to do that...". I switch to my buddy bottle and exit on it, all the while monitoring the gauge on my back gas to be sure it hasn't sprung a leak along the way because it, now, is my backup gas supply.

Having emergency procedures and equipment to support them is outstanding!

But you have to practice those procedures for them to work, or at least work without having to think about them, in an actual emergency.

Be safe and have fun in the water! Bruce

[kidspot]

Personally I do not like pony bottles, but if I had a student come to me for AOW, who used one, we would have a discussion on the merits and demerits of all types of alternate gas supplies (it's part of the OW and AOW course anyway), I would discourage it in favor of my preferred method, then if he determined he preferred carrying it after class we would devote training to it's proper usage during the class including frequent deployment and air shares using it.

So my recommendation to you is, if you are going to carry a pony bottle after training, ask your instructor to help you develop the skills necessary to carrying and using a pony bottle safely and efficiently on dives. You might even explore various ways of mounting and deploying it.

Your other option is to find an instructor who is in favor of pony bottles.

Aloha, Tim


I’m in a bit of a quandary. I have 38 dives now and am taking AOW. My instructor whom I like but who is a self confessed minimalist – doesn’t want glow sticks in night dive training for example), also does not like the 19 cu ft pony I usually wear attached to my main steel 100 with a “x bracket”, with a small Aeris Ion regulator clipped to the BCD. It’s a lot of comfort to me as a newer diver even though I have no intention at this time to exceed any of the recreational diver limits. He says I can keep it on if I must but he would prefer than within rec diving limits I minimize extra gear, trust what I have (Oceanic Delta 4 primary reg, never diving in water below 47 degrees), stay streamlined, etc. I have good air consumption – usually below 0.50 cu ft/min, often around 0.45 unless I am working hard on something, so I don’t have a lot of good arguments to keep it except for “what if” and “I take comfort in it”. Opinions?

[telemonster]

A friend tells me his pony has come in handy a number of times. A number of times other divers have run out of air, and it's been easy to hand off the pony to the distressed fool who wasn't doing a good job with gas management and ran out.

Also I believe it's a good idea when diving solo, no?

[peterbj7]

If you truly had that many failures I suggest you get out from under the black cloud over your head or give up diving.

Have you spotted that I run (or ran until recently) a dive center? With 50 sets of rental gear and 14 staff?

[MaxBottomtime]

I think the OP's instructor was trying to explain that the pony is a crutch. Like training wheels on a bicycle, some feel safer having extra safety gear. Wearing a pony introduces more failure points with O-rings and another reg and increases drag. It's everyone's choice whether or not it is worth diving with a piece of gear you hope to never use. I choose to manage my gas, maintain my gear and if I ever have a failure it would likely occur when I have enough gas to safely ascend. If I'm too deep with not enough air to solve a problem, I was pushing my luck to begin with.

[usmarinekurt]

I spent 6 years in the USMC and more then that in the US Army. I spent plenty of time outside the wire in Iraq. There is a reason small Scout teams are required to have 3 radios and a sat phone.
If you are going to trust your life on 1 piece of gear that you hope was not assembled on a Friday by someone hungover in Texas then I give you credit for being an idiot.
An answer for a problem is never a bad thing.
When or if your equipment fails (and everytime you dive you increase that chance more)if your "buddy" is more then 3 feet from you you will probably drown or bolt for the top and drown.
I have seen well trained guys under huge pressure that "could breath" do very stupid things.
The bottom line is -your alone down there regardless of who you dive with. When your buddy runs out of air he will kill you to get your regulator-its called survival.
Figure it out.
Obei One is not gonna help you.

train train train know your gear and have a redundancy for you redundancy and you should be fine. ( no guarantees)

[MaxBottomtime]

train train train know your gear and have a redundancy for you redundancy and you should be fine. ( no guarantees)Fortunately we're talking about a recreational diver, not this guy;
http://sukellus.info/pics/stroke_15.jpg
Double redundancy is fine in a combat situation but not necessary in shallow water. Coming up with ad-hoc solutions to problems that shouldn't exist is not what the instructor wanted his student to do.

[usmarinekurt]

Fortunately we're talking about a recreational diver, not this guy;
http://sukellus.info/pics/stroke_15.jpg
Double redundancy is fine in a combat situation but not necessary in shallow water. Coming up with ad-hoc solutions to problems that shouldn't exist is not what the instructor wanted his student to do.

recreational divers.....um 130 feet last I heard.
Id say an alternate air source sounds like a no brainer.

any of the charters REQUIRE them if you want to dive several of the wrecks in New England. All within the "safe recreational" limits

[mts0628]

I’m in a bit of a quandary. I have 38 dives now and am taking AOW. My instructor whom I like but who is a self confessed minimalist – doesn’t want glow sticks in night dive training for example), also does not like the 19 cu ft pony I usually wear attached to my main steel 100 with a “x bracket”, with a small Aeris Ion regulator clipped to the BCD. It’s a lot of comfort to me as a newer diver even though I have no intention at this time to exceed any of the recreational diver limits. He says I can keep it on if I must but he would prefer than within rec diving limits I minimize extra gear, trust what I have (Oceanic Delta 4 primary reg, never diving in water below 47 degrees), stay streamlined, etc. I have good air consumption – usually below 0.50 cu ft/min, often around 0.45 unless I am working hard on something, so I don’t have a lot of good arguments to keep it except for “what if” and “I take comfort in it”. Opinions?

Hey DC53:

Congratulations on continuing your diving education. Also, strong work on your low consumption rate.

As far as your "dilemma" unless your agency specifically says no and it's in writing and available, I'd keep the pony bottle if that's what you want to do. If your instructor doesn't want to accommodate you, then find another instructor.

My personal take though, I think more beneficial to you would be to ditch the pony bottle and learn more about gas management techniques. There are some good links but I am unsure if they were mentioned as my eyes glassed over from some of the reading. :) Nevertheless, lamont (http://www.scriptkiddie.org/diving/rockbottom.html) and NWGratefulDiver (http://nwgratefuldiver.com/articles/gas.html) are the two authors that come to mind.

With your low consumption rate, your newly found gas management techniques, sound equipment and a squared-away buddy, you'll have little to worry about. As you're also pursuing further education and hopefully you'll get more dives before the Summer's out (if you're a fair weather diver like I am), you'll become an even better diver (hopefully- I don't know you personally). Good luck!

With kindest regards,
Thomas

[captain]

Have you spotted that I run (or ran until recently) a dive center? With 50 sets of rental gear and 14 staff?

I wouldn't put rental gear that takes abuse from people who don't own it and could care less with personal well maintained gear. It's like apples and oranges. I have seen people drive company vehicles in ways they would never drive their own.

[usmarinekurt]

Life rarely cooperates.
I dove today off my boat on a wreck called the Celtic. Easy maybe 74 feet.
We dropped down the line at the bow of the wreck the visibility was maybe 8 feet. We went towards the stern -I lost my buddy at least 3 times even though he was close. I don't worry though since he has a redundant air supply , a emergency ascent line and a lift bag for safety.
On the way back the current had picked up so much, I used much more air getting back to our line (marked by 3 strobes). Luckily it worked out, and more lucky we had options if it did not.n(oh wait me having the correct gear if I did have an issue was not luck)

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I think the OP's instructor was trying to explain that the pony is a crutch. Like training wheels on a bicycle, some feel safer having extra safety gear.
That's not necessarily a bad thing though. It depends if the extra safety makes a diver more confident or more cocky. Confidence is never a bad thing in my opinion, and my first dive with a pony it was a great feeling to feel more self-sufficient and I think it allowed me to relax (in a good way, I don't mean I checked air less frequency or anything). The other side is it may make you cockier or give you a false sense of security: check air less often, stay down longer, go deeper, etc which is a bad thing. I think a pony makes me more confident, but I'm careful to make sure I never have to use it.


Fortunately we're talking about a recreational diver, not this guy;
Double redundancy is fine in a combat situation but not necessary in shallow water.
I don't consider 130 feet, possibly inside (light zone) of a wreck, cavern, or under ice to be "shallow water".

Even 60 feet is deep enough to get into trouble.

[dirtydon]

again the sport is about having fun .if you have a pony tank and practice with it have fun. this is what the sport is about . just dive f ??? the people that say you don't the extra tank. if you own it use it be safe with a buddy (best thing) dive safe have fun.this is what the fun is.it is your call. don't listen to the expertes(sp)if you have an extra tank n(pony)and all the experts are out of air ......guess what at 60 ft,30ft.if you own one clip it on .if you bought it use it.under water it don't weight ****.just be a good trained buddy,and have one also. be safe and always train for the bad. it's your life not the pros.if you own the tank take it.under 60 ft i would be next to you and say thank you.

[TSandM]

To the OP: There is a lot of static in this thread.

Whether to carry a pony bottle or not is a very controversial topic, as you have no doubt learned (if you have learned nothing else from this thread).

Rather than talk about pony bottle or not, let's talk about the problem you are trying to solve: It's the problem of having a depleted or malfunctioning gas supply at depth. Depleted should never happen -- that's the gas management stuff that people are linking to, and that you should absolutely read. If you consume enough gas underwater to end up in difficulties, you have kind of earned your problems -- you either haven't checked your gas often enough, or you had no plan as to how your gas was to be used.

If you have a malfunctioning gas supply at depth, you have two options. One is to obtain gas from a teammate, and the other is to self-rescue. Self-rescue can be done with a pony bottle, or with double tanks. Virtually everybody who enters an environment where a malfunction could be lethal (wrecks and caves) uses doubles, because they permit self-rescue. If you are frequently diving with previously unknown buddies, or in unknown circumstances, doubles are a great idea, but a pony bottle gives you much the same resource.

There are issues with ponies. If you mount them behind you, you can have a leak you don't realize, and the pony can be empty when you need it. If it's mounted behind you, you can't turn the valve; discovering it's off when you need gas would be depressing.

Another option is to utilize your buddy. There are issues with buddies. Some don't maintain adequate gas reserves to get two people to the surface, and others can't be found, or their attention can't be gained.

I dive in a system that trains buddies. The people I dive with get frankly nervous if they aren't close enough to their teammates, or if they aren't in visual contact with them. In addition, we are taught gas management, and to maintain adequate reserves. Therefore, I do not use a pony, or dive doubles most of the time in recreational dives. But were I to get on a boat in Hawaii with a bunch of strangers, I would sling a 40 as a pony -- the advantage of slinging a bottle being that you can see the valve and the reg and be aware of any leaks, and easily turn on the gas.

There are a lot of problems in diving you have to solve. Precisely stating the problem helps define its parameters, and then you have to decide what resources you have to solve the problem, and choose a strategy. Your instructor has clearly gone one way; you appear to want to go another. I think you have an instructor mismatch.

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Whether to carry a pony bottle or not is a very controversial topic, as you have no doubt learned (if you have learned nothing else from this thread).

I've learned that from every thread I've read on here :D Even "do you like to set up your own gear" turned into a heated debate.

[MaxBottomtime]

I don't consider 130 feet, possibly inside (light zone) of a wreck, cavern, or under ice to be "shallow water".
I wouldn't consider that to be recreational diving.

[peterbj7]

I wouldn't put rental gear that takes abuse from people who don't own it and could care less with personal well maintained gear. It's like apples and oranges. I have seen people drive company vehicles in ways they would never drive their own.

Are you suggesting that resort dive operations should not rent equipment as it encourages abuse? Besides, that is not the point. I have been saying that some scuba equipment is supplied defective from new, a far higher proportion than should be the case. What is your problem with that?

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I wouldn't consider that to be recreational diving.
I'm going by what the training agencies consider recreational (PADI to be specific, but most are pretty similar). I'm not sure what definition you're using.

[Nemrod]

On second thought, I will just excuse myself from this thread.

N

[peterbj7]

Let's just agree to differ then. I don't think it's very likely that our diving paths will ever cross.

[Nemrod]

I get around but we can agree to disagree. N

[Stoy D Dabbs]

Buddy or No buddy, I look at pony bottle and regulator as a safety equipmint, no matter what depth. It's about being Self-Sufficiency.
I do not like to put my life depending on one tank and one regulator below 60', there are failure points in a system, like hose, o'rings and most common are free flows. Doing an emergency ascent has risk of DCI.

[usmarinekurt]

not all wrecks are sitting on Pennekamp and not all dives are sitting in 40 feet of water overweighted with a camera. Where I live our wrecks are not artificial reefs, are in dark water and get fished daily. Thus there are broken lines ,hooks,lost anchors and plenty of obstacles. Add that to bad viz and there is certainly a chance of something unexpected happening.
Funny- I posted a thread saying I was considering putting 02 on my boat and any divers who responded almost felt it was a requirement....GEE why have 02 on board if NOTHING can ever happen?
Id like to take some Cali divers with us on the u853 sub and I bet you clear water divers will feel its a completely different sport.

[tyesai]

This kind of discussion is similiar to one you can find in the gun community. Some hunters wonder why some people carry concealed weapons. Some people that carry concealed feel that all you need is a good old snubby 5 shot .38, and think that anyone who carries a hi-capacity auto is going overboard. Then some of the guys carrying around a hi-cap auto think that people carrying two concealed guns are whack jobs and that two concealed weapons really only need to be carried by people who have a higher risk of confrontation, like cops that have tasered one to many people.

It is your life man, if you want to strap on three tanks, two knifes, a pair of scissors, 3 spear guns, one of those Co2 injector things, 5 light sticks, a big flashlight, a small flashlight, an extra mask, a whistle, a mirror, and some arm floaties, then I say go for it. It is your life and your are ultimately responsible for it.

[DC53]

I’m the OP.

OK, I can see from all the replies, a couple of things:

My instructor and I do have a mismatch to have certain degree. I think though that I have a lot to learn from him and like him and will stay with him despite this issue.

However, I have tried to look inside myself and listen to all opinions and realize that I am just someone who wants redundant levels of safety no matter what my skill level is. I have a very high level of skill in another sport which also entails risk and have integrated as much redundancy into my equipment as possible without imposing any drawback on performance. Even though I have never had to use it, I feel good about having it (even though others at my level don’t use redundancy.)

My own sense is that if I cannot swim to the top on one breath of air, I want redundancy. I’m in good shape but have slowly arrived at the age of 56 years and am far from the competitive swimmer that my wife is. I doubt I could safely or reliably come up from 60 feet or below on one breath, and frequently dive in that range, often with limited viz. My wife, who at least for now is my designated buddy, if frightened at the very idea of needing redundancy, even talking about it, although she is comfortable scuba diving at my level. She doesn’t mind if I use it however.

I am meticulous in checking equipment before diving, pressures, regs, valves. The last thing I always do before putting my arm through the BCD is check that both valves are ON, and that is done AFTER checking both tank pressures. In the water I carry 3 more pounds on the left than the right to compensate balance but other than that I don’t feel it while swimming. I practice switching between my primary, to my octo, to the secondary underwater with my eyes closed, from time to time. Then I go swimming and feel almost completely relaxed.

But I think that what I will do is do the easy dives without it to accommodate to the instructor and also experience it differently, but when we go out into the ocean for the six check out wreck dives which will be in the Atlantic offshore, I will keep my pony. And for anything pushing the limits of rec diving a little closer it will be a slung 30cu ft as opposed to the back mounted 19.

I may eat my words someday but that is what I think now.

[mts0628]

I’m the OP.

OK, I can see from all the replies, a couple of things:

My instructor and I do have a mismatch to have certain degree. I think though that I have a lot to learn from him and like him and will stay with him despite this issue.

However, I have tried to look inside myself and listen to all opinions and realize that I am just someone who wants redundant levels of safety no matter what my skill level is. I have a very high level of skill in another sport which also entails risk and have integrated as much redundancy into my equipment as possible without imposing any drawback on performance. Even though I have never had to use it, I feel good about having it (even though others at my level don’t use redundancy.)

My own sense is that if I cannot swim to the top on one breath of air, I want redundancy. I’m in good shape but have slowly arrived at the age of 56 years and am far from the competitive swimmer that my wife is. I doubt I could safely or reliably come up from 60 feet or below on one breath, and frequently dive in that range, often with limited viz. My wife, who at least for now is my designated buddy, if frightened at the very idea of needing redundancy, even talking about it, although she is comfortable scuba diving at my level. She doesn’t mind if I use it however.

I am meticulous in checking equipment before diving, pressures, regs, valves. The last thing I always do before putting my arm through the BCD is check that both valves are ON, and that is done AFTER checking both tank pressures. In the water I carry 3 more pounds on the left than the right to compensate balance but other than that I don’t feel it while swimming. I practice switching between my primary, to my octo, to the secondary underwater with my eyes closed, from time to time. Then I go swimming and feel almost completely relaxed.

But I think that what I will do is do the easy dives without it to accommodate to the instructor and also experience it differently, but when we go out into the ocean for the six check out wreck dives which will be in the Atlantic offshore, I will keep my pony. And for anything pushing the limits of rec diving a little closer it will be a slung 30cu ft as opposed to the back mounted 19.

I may eat my words someday but that is what I think now.

Hey DC53:

Skydiving? If so, I don't care how good I am, I will never jump without an active AAD either. If not skydiving, sorry for the confusion...

Again, it's your choice and only when you feel completely comfortable should you shed your pony bottle. I will say though, that at your age, with your limited number of dives, and your gas consumption rate, very strong work! And while you may not be able to swim horizontally on one breath and for 60 feet, again I don't know you but I'd bet dollars to donuts that you could ascend safely to the surface from 60 feet. Not that I have faith in you or like my favorite saying, "You'd be surprised what the human body can endure", but simply think of gas expansion.

And finally, stay meticulous and think, anything eaten goes down better with Maggi (http://gdcom.stores.yahoo.net/magwsrze125g.html) and a Pepsi. Don't worry about eating your thoughtful words though.

With kindest regards to your wife and you,
Thomas

[grf88]

It never ceases to amaze me just how contentious the issue of ponies is. Carrying your own redundant air source just makes good sense when the one thing we cannot do without underwater is a suitable breathing mixture. I use various set ups depending on the dive but redundancy is always part of any dive below 60 feet and sometimes even shallower. My redundancy will take the form of either doubles, a large single with a H-Valve (not fully redundant but close) or a single and a side slung pony.

I dive mostly in cold water and have both had and seen a lot of freeflows even with recently serviced regs that are considered suitable for cold water.

Here is something I posted on this board some time ago on the subject:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/2603184-post140.html

[Tom Winters]

Back to the OP - the pony bottle is a great idea for you, especially if it increases your comfort level while diving. Just make sure that you make sure that it's always charged - stuff like is irresistable to people to try in the pool. Or maybe the tires needed topping off. Or something else.
Then when you're at 100', screwing with one last lobster and go to use the thing, you find it's already down to 500psi. This wil always happen on the one single time you didn't check the gauge before you hopped in the water.

[Splash-X]

To pony; or, not to pony, that is the question!

All kidding aside, every diver has their conformt level and it is the job of the instructor to find out what the comfort level is for that student and not push them beyond it.

Did your AOW instructor discuss with you why you feel the needs for a pony bottle by asking you why you use it? Just trying to get a feel for how the situation went. While he is the "teacher" he should respect you and your limits and comfort.

If he talks down to you about you're gear or tries to belittle you it's definatly time to move on to another instructor. If it's an open and friendly discussion and he is giving you points for why you really don't need thats a different story.

I've seen instructors both way. In this case, the customer is always right, you're the one diving and it's your choice to dive with or without it. Peer pressure at 56 :) (just say no man..)



I think the OP's instructor was trying to explain that the pony is a crutch.

And I suppose glow sticks in night diving are a crutch too? (OPs orginal post)


When I'm assisting students, it is our policy to encourage the students to bring all of the gear they would be diving with to the pool so they can practice with all the gear they would be in the real world.

Teaching a student to share air would be different for someone with a pony vs someone with an octo vs someone with an integrated inflator/regulator. Knowing how to do so with YOUR gear is what matters, not with what someone else uses.

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I get the impression from some posts on here (not necessarily just this thread) that people can focus on the ideal situation without looking at the realistic applications. A good example of this is saying that you don't need redundant air because you should always be diving with a well-known, competent buddy; but in recreational diving this isn't always easy. Charter boats, dive clubs, etc. often leave you matched up with some stranger when you come alone: should charters and dive clubs only allow buddy pairs to join? Or should you stop diving with a good friend, spouse, whatever because they maybe aren't the perfect buddy?

Ideally, gear will never fail, and normally it doesn't. But it can and does happen. Even if it only happens once in 1000 dives, if that once happens to be when I'm at 130 feet, I'd like insurance better than the air in my buddy's tank that may or may not let us do a safe ascent with an increased SAC.

Ideally everyone will use rock-bottom air time (a concept not even required in OW) and have enough to surface. But in an AOW class where they give you an AL-80 tank, for two heavy breathers to surface with a panicked SAC from 100 feet, to be safe you'd need to abort the dive at 2000 PSI: hardly enough time to do the narcosis test.

Ideally, people will never make a mistake, we will always be perfect divers. But in reality even with proper training, people can and do make mistakes. If I run out of air and can't make it to the surface, it's little comfort that it was my own damn fault. A pony shouldn't be used to encourage reckless behaviour, but everyone makes mistakes, and is the death penalty really an appropriate punishment for someone's mind wandering and forgetting to check their gauge? And remember, you are certified after 4 open water dives: people will make mistakes after this level of training.

Another thing that isn't taken into account in many blanket statements is conditions. While this isn't a concern with a local instructor, blanket statements like "pony's aren't needed in recreational diving" are useless. As I said in a previous post, in spring months a Great Lakes dive charter I've heard REQUIRES a pony to dive off their boat (and these are all rec dives).

Ideally I'll only use my pony in practice drills. But in reality if I need it even once in my entire life, it has paid for itself and the little extra hassle will all be worth it. Everyone has their own comfort level, and it's an arbitrary line where we decide "safe enough": why not have doubles and a pony? However, I don't think anyone should have to feel somewhat guilty/stupid (which is what the instructor it sounds like did: he didn't say "you can't use it" but I'd feel a bit weird wearing it after hearing it talked down and "well I won't force you to take it off") for using one. I'm not saying anyone else should wear one, just that I feel I have good reasons for wearing one.

[hudson]

It's been stated that carrying a pony may make you uncomfortable in the water when you don't have one. Probably true for a new diver. Also when the buddy is unreliable, a pony is almost always a necessity. But...

Air consumption has nothing to do with a "Pony" except maybe when picking what size pony to buy.
I don't believe this is true. From my personal experience, a 19cuft pony bottle adds a lot of drag. I haven't done any testing with regards to air consumption, but I know for a fact that my frog kick takes me further without a (slung) pony bottle than with. It's reasonable to assume this translates into increased air consumption.

So that'd be my main reason not to carry a pony - to avoid the increased drag. Otherwise... it's not really an additional point of failure as it's a fully-independent system, so there is no reason not to have one - as long as you are also comfortable without it.

[peterbj7]

if you want to strap on three tanks, two knifes, a pair of scissors, 3 spear guns, one of those Co2 injector things, 5 light sticks, a big flashlight, a small flashlight, an extra mask, a whistle, a mirror, and some arm floaties, then I say go for it
I don't think mocking is constructive or called for. Generally accepted good practice on appropriate dives is to carry two knives (preferably small and carefully located), a small lamp is useful even on an open ocean day dive, and an extra mask in a group can be a life saver. And so can a redundant air source.

If you take a spear gun scuba diving in Belize or in a number of other countries you'll have your card confiscated, and probably worse.

[peterbj7]

The last thing I always do before putting my arm through the BCD is check that both valves are ON, and that is done AFTER checking both tank pressures
It's actually better practice to carry your pony so that you can reach the valve underwater, then before entry pressurise it and check the pressure, but then turn the valve off (leaving it pressurised). That way you won't lose the contents if you have a slow leak or if something goes wrong under water. You want to turn the air on and off again periodically during the dive to ensure it remains pressurised, to avoid any chance of water getting into the tank or first stage. This is standard practice with additional tanks carried as stage tanks, and it's the best way to handle a pony.

Another reason for having the whole pony accessible is so that you can unclip it and hand it off to someone who may need it. On all the dives I've done with a pony I've never used it myself, but another needy diver has done.

[Splash-X]

Peter has a good point. When I take a pony when we do deep dives it is always mounted upside down so the valves are easy to reach to turn off and I can easily unclip it and hand it to a buddy if needed. I dive with it turned off so that there is no risk of free flow.

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I keep mine on until I am a bit more comfortable with it. I don't disagree with Peter's reasoning at all, it's just at this point in time risk-benefit, I figure that the chances of:
- the pony emptying
- me not noticing (on a slung pony)
- this happening on the exact dive when I need the pony (unlike tech diving, your pony emptying in itself isn't catastrophic, as long as you don't need it)

all happening on the same dive are less likely than the chance that I need the pony and somehow screw up turning it on (risk-benefit). In the future when I am more comfortable and have practice using the valve, I may leave it off. However, I think leaving it off is more so something that came from the tech world where the reasons are stronger for leaving it turned off, so I'm in no rush to switch to this method.

[simmonsjr]

I don't think mocking is constructive or called for. Generally accepted good practice on appropriate dives is to carry two knives (preferably small and carefully located), a small lamp is useful even on an open ocean day dive, and an extra mask in a group can be a life saver. And so can a redundant air source.

If you take a spear gun scuba diving in Belize or in a number of other countries you'll have your card confiscated, and probably worse.

Don't take the post out of context. The original post that you deride as sarcasm is as follows:


This kind of discussion is similiar to one you can find in the gun community. Some hunters wonder why some people carry concealed weapons. Some people that carry concealed feel that all you need is a good old snubby 5 shot .38, and think that anyone who carries a hi-capacity auto is going overboard. Then some of the guys carrying around a hi-cap auto think that people carrying two concealed guns are whack jobs and that two concealed weapons really only need to be carried by people who have a higher risk of confrontation, like cops that have tasered one to many people.

It is your life man, if you want to strap on three tanks, two knifes, a pair of scissors, 3 spear guns, one of those Co2 injector things, 5 light sticks, a big flashlight, a small flashlight, an extra mask, a whistle, a mirror, and some arm floaties, then I say go for it. It is your life and your are ultimately responsible for it.

There is no sarcasm here. The post pretty clearly states that you should bring along any equipment that you feel that is necessary in order to provide for your safety. What you mistook for mockery is an example of hyperbole - exaggerating the details in order to drive a point home.

The point that is being made is that while others may see redundancy as going overboard you have both a right and a responsibility to do whatever you feel is necessary to provide for your personal safety. Others may say that such precautions are unnecessary, and they might be for them. You may be talked out of a precaution, such as the pony bottle in this case, or your skills and confidence may grow to the point that you are ready to forego it, but while you feel that you need it then it becomes necessary for you.

Jason

[peterbj7]

Fair comment, Jason. I was having my doubts, but when I got to the bit about "some arm floaties" I decided that yes, "tyesai" was having a laugh at someone's expense. There's been an awful lot of that here lately. I'm quite happy to accept that I was wrong. Heavens - we might even get back to serious discussion of people's genuine dive concerns!

[peterbj7]

I keep mine on until I am a bit more comfortable with it. I don't disagree with Peter's reasoning at all, it's just at this point in time risk-benefit, I figure that the chances of:
- the pony emptying
- me not noticing (on a slung pony)
- this happening on the exact dive when I need the pony (unlike tech diving, your pony emptying in itself isn't catastrophic, as long as you don't need it)

all happening on the same dive are less likely than the chance that I need the pony and somehow screw up turning it on (risk-benefit). In the future when I am more comfortable and have practice using the valve, I may leave it off. However, I think leaving it off is more so something that came from the tech world where the reasons are stronger for leaving it turned off, so I'm in no rush to switch to this method.

That's fine - you should do what you feel comfortable with. Just a couple of comments though - tanks CAN empty themselves through a small leak, especially small ones (tanks), and a tank mounted behind you where you can't see it can fall off without your even knowing. If yours is firmly attached then it probably won't happen,but I've seen tanks stowed in fabric pony bottle tubes simply fall out when the diver inverted if (s)he forgot to tighten the draw string around the neck. Or they can work loose over time. Granted that what I said does relate more to the tech world and probably started there, but these practices developed for good reason.

[gcbryan]

I’m in a bit of a quandary. I have 38 dives now and am taking AOW. My instructor whom I like but who is a self confessed minimalist – doesn’t want glow sticks in night dive training for example), also does not like the 19 cu ft pony I usually wear attached to my main steel 100 with a “x bracket”, with a small Aeris Ion regulator clipped to the BCD. It’s a lot of comfort to me as a newer diver even though I have no intention at this time to exceed any of the recreational diver limits. He says I can keep it on if I must but he would prefer than within rec diving limits I minimize extra gear, trust what I have (Oceanic Delta 4 primary reg, never diving in water below 47 degrees), stay streamlined, etc. I have good air consumption – usually below 0.50 cu ft/min, often around 0.45 unless I am working hard on something, so I don’t have a lot of good arguments to keep it except for “what if” and “I take comfort in it”. Opinions?

Even though I sling a bottle on all/most dives I agree with your instructor to a point. I think it would be good for you to be comfortable and get used to diving (as a new diver) without a pony. It may be a crutch in the sense that you have no experience without it. You should be reasonably comfortable without it. If you chose to use one after that (as I did) then I wouldn't call it a crutch but rather just a redundant choice.
In my case I didn't use one until I had a hundred or so dives.

I agree with the instructor regarding tank lights/chemical sticks as well. Chem sticks are bad for the environment if they are left behind, they shouldn't be necessary as in you shouldn't be behind your buddy and if you can't see them by their dive light of what use is a tank light and in many cases it's just a crutch and an annoyance to other divers...particularly flashing strobe tank lights....you don't need a light on your tank...you need one in your hand.

[Coldwater_Canuck]

That's fine - you should do what you feel comfortable with. Just a couple of comments though - tanks CAN empty themselves through a small leak, especially small ones (tanks), and a tank mounted behind you where you can't see it can fall off without your even knowing. If yours is firmly attached then it probably won't happen,but I've seen tanks stowed in fabric pony bottle tubes simply fall out when the diver inverted if (s)he forgot to tighten the draw string around the neck. Or they can work loose over time.
Well I sling it, so if I didn't notice it falling off me, I'd have bigger problems :) While a small leak that I don't notice right below me I suppose isn't impossible, the odds of it happening on a dive when I need the pony seems very low.



Granted that what I said does relate more to the tech world and probably started there, but these practices developed for good reason.
Oh for sure, I mean obviously if you lose all your deco gas, that's a major emergency I assume (with the little I know about tech). No doubt in this situation it's better to leave it off. But for a rec bailout bottle, if you lose a ton of gas and notice, simply abort the dive. If you don't notice, then hopefully statistics rule in your favour and not Murphy's law (statistically chance of pony emptying and you needing that pony that dive almost 0). Which is why I have no trouble leaving mine on, but as I said, in time I wouldn't mind moving towards the tech way of thinking.

[TSandM]

I think this is one of the most basic questions of diving: How do I cope with a catastrophic loss of gas? It's unlikely to happen, but if it does, it could be the last thing that ever happens to you. We all SHOULD think about it, and decide on a strategy for coping with it. That strategy will be shaped in part by the environment in which we dive. People who don't have regular dive buddies, or who travel and climb on boats with strangers, may make very different decisions from the ones I have made. But I dive primarily with highly trained and very conscientious buddies, and when I don't, I dive doubles for self-rescue.

But a variety of decisions are valid. Spare Airs are not, because there isn't enough gas in them to be useful. Back-mounted ponies have significant issues, in that you can't reach the valve, and you can't see any leaks. Slung bottles require gear you can sling them on, but are probably one of the nicest options, because you can see the valve and the reg, and you can easily hand the bottle off to someone if they need it (assuming THEY have a place to put it.)

But at any rate, I'm not going to criticize someone's decision to use a pony bottle, because they may not be in a position to elect other options.

[DaleC]

but then turn the valve off (leaving it pressurised). This is standard practice with additional tanks carried as stage tanks, and it's the best way to handle a pony.


Well, it's one way to handle a pony but I wouldn't say it's the best. I wouldn't say it's the worst either. I would just say it's one way.


Granted that what I said does relate more to the tech world and probably started there, but these practices developed for good reason.

In relation to stage and deco bottles. Tech divers don't use ponies so their way of relating to them may not be the most relevant.


I think this is one of the most basic questions of diving: How do I cope with a catastrophic loss of gas?
But at any rate, I'm not going to criticize someone's decision to use a pony bottle, because they may not be in a position to elect other options.

Oh now Lynne, don't let logic and common decency get in the way of a perfectly good argument :no:

[tyesai]

Fair comment, Jason. I was having my doubts, but when I got to the bit about "some arm floaties" I decided that yes, "tyesai" was having a laugh at someone's expense. There's been an awful lot of that here lately. I'm quite happy to accept that I was wrong. Heavens - we might even get back to serious discussion of people's genuine dive concerns!

I wasn't mocking him at all, the other Jason summed up my own words for me far better than I could have.

JSin

[peterbj7]

Well, it's one way to handle a pony but I wouldn't say it's the best. I wouldn't say it's the worst either. I would just say it's one way.
So what would you say are the various ways, and which is the best?


In relation to stage and deco bottles. Tech divers don't use ponies so their way of relating to them may not be the most relevant
To an extent depends on what you call a "pony". What would your definition be?

As it's an additional tank over and above the main tank(s) on your back I thought it was a pretty similar situation. But as you picked up on it you must feel there's a significant difference....?

[gcbryan]

I won't speak for DaleC but a pony bottle (bailout bottle) isn't a deco bottle and it isn't a fact that turning the bottle off is "the best way". It is in your opinion which is fine.

I leave the bottle on. It's not a deco bottle that is 100% necessary on every dive. It's a bottle that is rarely necessary but when it is necessary it may not be the best procedure for the suddenly OOA diver (broken hose or whatever) to have to remember to turn the tank back on or to have to remember to keep re pressurizing the tank throughout the dive.

I check my pony bottle gauge from time to time during the dive. I don't need to turn the bottle off. For someone who is already trained to do that for their deco gas that might be the best approach should they decide to use a pony bottle. Most who are trained in deco diving don't use pony bottles however and would just use their doubles (I guess).

[BDSC]

My instructor and I do have a mismatch to have certain degree. I think though that I have a lot to learn from him and like him and will stay with him despite this issue.

I think you have made the right choice here! It kinda surprised me how many people were quick to say "Find another instructor." I think you have an excellent instructor who is only trying to help you become the best diver you can be.

A few years ago I was on a dive trip (Cozumel) with a guy who had just been through AOW and had like 25 to 30 dives. He actually brought along with him a pony bottle. So the first day the guy brings it to the boat and uses it both dives. Second day was the same thing. So on the morning of the third day before we head out he asked me why no one else on the boat had a pony and I told him my thoughts on using a pony and why you'll hardly ever see a person wear one in the typical clear, warm water, caribbean type diving. So the guy decided to leave it on the boat for the first dive. Did it again on the second dive. And to this day he never wears it unless he is going below 130 ft or doing certain wreck peretrations.

His reason for wearing it, according to him, was the "What if" factor. I've never been one to try and guard against the "What if" factor because it is impossible to do so and explained to him my line of thinking on it. I don't think anything I said had any big impact on his decision to not use the pony that day and not using the pony now. I think it has more to do with him becoming a more experienced diver and gaining the confidence in his skills and abilities that only experience can bring and he now sees what many people see. There is no practical need for a pony in the type of diving we were doing.

[DC53]

Removed post - tried to quote and reply but didn't work. May get to it later.

[peterbj7]

it may not be the best procedure for the suddenly OOA diver (broken hose or whatever) to have to remember to turn the tank back on or to have to remember to keep re pressurizing the tank throughout the dive

I'm NOT wanting to be confrontational, just to explore this a bit. What you are suggesting is that such a diver is likely to be highly stressed and already to have a high workload? So any extra operations beyond those immediately essential to maintain life cannot be entertained? This to me suggests a serious deficiency in training. A diver who is "on the edge" as this suggests is not a safe diver, nor is likely to be a comfortable one.

Let me draw what I think is quite a good parallel. A new driver may have problems coordinating everything involved in driving a car, but that's no justification or excuse for failing to maintain a proper visual scan including the mirror, and understanding what he needs to know from it. A driver in training is likely to find the workload almost overpowering, but with proper training gets the hang of it and by the time he's released onto an unsuspecting public has it pretty well under control. Saying in Court you didn't use your rearview mirror and (therefore) didn't know what was behind you is NO defence if you thereby caused an accident.

[DaleC]

I won't speak for DaleC but a pony bottle (bailout bottle) isn't a deco bottle and it isn't a fact that turning the bottle off is "the best way". It is in your opinion which is fine.

I leave the bottle on. It's not a deco bottle that is 100% necessary on every dive. It's a bottle that is rarely necessary but when it is necessary it may not be the best procedure for the suddenly OOA diver (broken hose or whatever) to have to remember to turn the tank back on or to have to remember to keep re pressurizing the tank throughout the dive.

I check my pony bottle gauge from time to time during the dive. I don't need to turn the bottle off. For someone who is already trained to do that for their deco gas that might be the best approach should they decide to use a pony bottle. Most who are trained in deco diving don't use pony bottles however and would just use their doubles (I guess).

That pretty well sums up my thoughts too. On or off doesn't really matter as much (I dive with buddies that do both) as that you understand the pros and cons of each system and are well versed in the system you choose. If you sling your pony (so you can monitor gas loss and manipulate the valves) one is not intrinsically better than the other.


I'm NOT wanting to be confrontational, just to explore this a bit. What you are suggesting is that such a diver is likely to be highly stressed and already to have a high workload? So any extra operations beyond those immediately essential to maintain life cannot be entertained? This to me suggests a serious deficiency in training. A diver who is "on the edge" as this suggests is not a safe diver, nor is likely to be a comfortable one.

A pony is intentionally used under stress conditions (OOA, catastrophic gas loss) a deco or stage bottle is not. With a stage/deco bottle one plans the gas switch and does it in a controlled fashion (usually). With a pony (used as a redundant air source) something "unexpected" has happened. For example:

- A burst disk, extruded O ring or severed LP hose is dumping 80cuft of gas in my ear.

- An OOA diver swimming up and grabbing my pony reg, trying to breath and finding it dead. Then, either trapping my hand as I try to turn the valve on or undoing the yoke valve themselves by mistake.

Everybody can dive their gear their own way. That is the beauty of scuba. For me I choose to have all regs live. I weigh the risk of losing my pony gas against the risk of breathing a dead reg in an emergency. If I do lose gas somehow I will notice it and can adjust my dive accordingly. This will be done under non stressed non lethal conditions. If I, or someone else, breathes a dead reg and needs to turn the valve on this will be done under stressed lethal conditions. I choose to take on the non lethal risk that I will deal with under non stressed conditions rather than the lethal risk I will deal with under stressed conditions.

But that's just me. I've thought it through and understand how my decision affects me.


It is often the case here on the board that people disagree on gear configuration and denigrate the others choice by claiming a lack of skills or experience. I think there can often be more than one right answer to a question and this is one of those cases. There really is no "better choice".
I think this may be disturbing to some who think that, if they have/do all the best things they will be safe. I subscribe to that to a certain extent but also realise that there is no "one" way that will protect me from the everchanging unpredictale nature of life.

[tedj101]

That is a matter for personal preference (as is most of this thread). My usual buddies won't dive with me at night unless I have a tank light because they want to be sure that they can account for me and I don't keep my main light on all the time - by a long shot. I also usually use a small light as my main light at night (though I carry a big one too in case I need it). By contrast, if you are someone who always has their main light on, that might not be so important.

Regards,
<TED>



I agree with the instructor regarding tank lights/chemical sticks as well. Chem sticks are bad for the environment if they are left behind, they shouldn't be necessary as in you shouldn't be behind your buddy and if you can't see them by their dive light of what use is a tank light and in many cases it's just a crutch and an annoyance to other divers...particularly flashing strobe tank lights....you don't need a light on your tank...you need one in your hand.

[peterbj7]

I often do night dives with just a small lamp, and that's off much of the time. But not if I'm leading a group. They need to know where I am, and I need to know where they are.

I don't use chemical light sticks for two reasons. The first is that they're hard to get here, and quite expensive. The other is that I prefer the battery-operated ones.

A lot about diving is indeed personal preference, and long may that continue! Many decisions are pretty arbitrary and it really doesn't matter which course you take. Unless you're trying to conform to someone else's arbitrary standards of course.

But others have a safety implication, and sometimes an inexperienced or untrained individual doesn't recognise the more serious aspects of these. Being able to reach your valves underwater, and knowing how to operate them, clearly has such implications. Being trained to an extent that you've experienced in simulation any emergency that is likely to occur is just plain commonsense. As I was taught very early on "in an emergency it's the poorly learned skills that are forgotten first". Combine that with the fact that most diver deaths are caused by the diver not reacting properly to changing circumstances and panicking.

There is NO substitute for well conceived and testing training, and from it comes an ability to recognise what's important and what isn't.

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I'm NOT wanting to be confrontational, just to explore this a bit. What you are suggesting is that such a diver is likely to be highly stressed and already to have a high workload? So any extra operations beyond those immediately essential to maintain life cannot be entertained? This to me suggests a serious deficiency in training. A diver who is "on the edge" as this suggests is not a safe diver, nor is likely to be a comfortable one.

While proper training will obviously help in emergencies, there is no way to truly put yourself in that emergency situation (safely). People panic, who knows what they're going to do. I'd even venture to say most rec divers will have some level of panic and possibly make some mistakes in an emergency. Personally, I'd simply rather not risk it, in an emergency I want the steps to get air as simple and quick as possible.

Kind of like in OW, I remember my instructor saying something along the lines of. "so when you're out of air, you make the OOA signal, and your buddy calmly passes you the reg and you breathe (which is how we did the drills); in reality someone will just snatch the reg out of your mouth. Everyone is trained on calmly asking their buddy for air, I guess most don't do this properly in an OOA emergency.



Let me draw what I think is quite a good parallel. A new driver may have problems coordinating everything involved in driving a car, but that's no justification or excuse for failing to maintain a proper visual scan including the mirror, and understanding what he needs to know from it. A driver in training is likely to find the workload almost overpowering, but with proper training gets the hang of it and by the time he's released onto an unsuspecting public has it pretty well under control. Saying in Court you didn't use your rearview mirror and (therefore) didn't know what was behind you is NO defence if you thereby caused an accident.
I don't know if that's a good parallel because you seem to be talking about day to day driving, not a paniced emergency situation. A better analogy would be a situation where your instinct is slam on your brakes: before doing this you are trained to check your rear-view mirror so if someone will smash into you you could take an alternate action like swerve out of the way. In the driving school drills I did this perfectly, in real life I can't say I've always checked my mirror before slamming on my breaks.

[Coldwater_Canuck]

For me I choose to have all regs live. I weigh the risk of losing my pony gas against the risk of breathing a dead reg in an emergency. If I do lose gas somehow I will notice it and can adjust my dive accordingly. This will be done under non stressed non lethal conditions. If I, or someone else, breathes a dead reg and needs to turn the valve on this will be done under stressed lethal conditions. I choose to take on the non lethal risk that I will deal with under non stressed conditions rather than the lethal risk I will deal with under stressed conditions.

Identical to my thinking.

[peterbj7]

While proper training will obviously help in emergencies, there is no way to truly put yourself in that emergency situation
True to a point, but then how do airline pilots learn to fly models they're new to?



I don't know if that's a good parallel because you seem to be talking about day to day driving, not a paniced emergency situation
When you start a driving journey you don't know which it'll be. I don't see any distinction.



A better analogy would be a situation where your instinct is slam on your brakes: before doing this you are trained to check your rear-view mirror
I wasn't, and during my driving test the examiner covered up the mirror just before he ordered the emergency stop. During instruction my instructor occasionally covered the mirror and then asked me what was behind. You are meant to monitor the mirror at all times so you always have a pretty good idea of what's behind you. In an actual emergency you don't have time to look in the mirror. That's in the UK, but driving is driving and I can't believe the US is much different. Actually I also took a South African commercial driving test and it was done there as well.

Have you ever been asked by an instructor (back on diving now) how much air you have, without being allowed to check your gauge? It was done to me and I do it to my students. You should maintain a scan of all important instruments etc so that in an emergency you don't need to look at it - you already know with sufficient accuracy. Just as you should have a pretty good idea of your depth without checking your gauge.

[peterbj7]

I weigh the risk of losing my pony gas against the risk of breathing a dead reg in an emergency. If I do lose gas somehow I will notice it and can adjust my dive accordingly. This will be done under non stressed non lethal conditions. If I, or someone else, breathes a dead reg and needs to turn the valve on this will be done under stressed lethal conditions. I choose to take on the non lethal risk that I will deal with under non stressed conditions rather than the lethal risk I will deal with under stressed conditions

The point about structured training is that a simple thing like losing the gas from one cylinder, then having to transfer to another and turn it on first is not remotely stressful. As to "lethal" - well, it isn't that either. The stress does certainly exist, but it takes place during the training in a highly controlled environment. Once you've experienced a potentially stressful problem in training and survived it, with help and probably not on the first occasion, then when (not if) it happens for real it's an issue you've experienced before and you can handle it calmly. In fact, for one agency I teach/taught for it is REQUIRED that during training the student experiences real stress, and works through it to a safe conclusion.

[FritzCat66]

To the OP: Try removing your reg and doing a CESA from 100', which is your certification limit at AOW. If you are uncomfortable at all doing that, then stick with your pony and politely tell your instructor you appreciate his advice but have decided to keep your little yellow buddy.

Your instructor has the right to their opinion, and you have the right to smile and ignore them and still get your certification, as long as you meet the requirements of whatever agency you're certifying with - and except for possibly some elitist esoteric techie agencies who want all divers to look like clones, I doubt any of them specifies that you can't or shouldn't carry a pony.

>*< Fritz

[peterbj7]

elitist esoteric techie agencies who want all divers to look like clones, I doubt any of them specifies that you can't or shouldn't carry a pony

I believe that the only agency that comes to mind as fitting that description DOES specify that you WON'T carry a pony :D.

[Coldwater_Canuck]

True to a point, but then how do airline pilots learn to fly models they're new to?
Well I think in anything you have to wonder how someone will react in an emergency, including the pilot on the plane. There are many instances of pilots doing the downright wrong thing when the investigation comes out. I know if I was a passenger on a plane I'd prefer the emergency procedures are as simple as possible and don't include extra steps, even if someone says that "a pilot who can't do these extra steps shows a serious deficiency in training".



When you start a driving journey you don't know which it'll be. I don't see any distinction.
I missed this, what?



I wasn't, and during my driving test the examiner covered up the mirror just before he ordered the emergency stop. During instruction my instructor occasionally covered the mirror and then asked me what was behind. You are meant to monitor the mirror at all times so you always have a pretty good idea of what's behind you. In an actual emergency you don't have time to look in the mirror. That's in the UK, but driving is driving and I can't believe the US is much different. Actually I also took a South African commercial driving test and it was done there as well.

Ya I've had that too where they cover up the mirror, the point is that this is something during regular driving, not an emergency situation.

And the slamming on the brakes wasn't part of a driving test, it was part of driving school (Canada, not US) They taught you that when you slam on the brakes you should be checking the rear view mirror to make sure this is the best course of action. Or when you swerve you look beside you, or whatever. Of course this isn't always realistic, but even so it's easy to forget to do once you leave the comfort of a simulation in driving school.





Have you ever been asked by an instructor (back on diving now) how much air you have, without being allowed to check your gauge? It was done to me and I do it to my students. You should maintain a scan of all important instruments etc so that in an emergency you don't need to look at it - you already know with sufficient accuracy. Just as you should have a pretty good idea of your depth without checking your gauge.
This situation does parallel the driving one: actually almost a perfect match. I'm just not sure how it relates to an OOA emergency. One is the everyday things you should get into the habit of doing (whether checking mirror or gauge), the other is in a few seconds doing the right thing in an incredibly rare event.

[peterbj7]

In the UK driving instruction and the test are (or were) conducted on public roads, not in simulation. The instructor or examiner as appropriate satisfies himself that it's safe to conduct the manoeuvre at that instant. A full emergency stop IS part of the driving test. Mine was a bit too realistic as I did my emergency stop when the examiner wasn't even watching, but was looking down at his papers. As he wasn't wearing his seat belt he was thrown forward into the windscreen. My reason? - a child ran out into the road in front of the car. I passed the test, and the examiner got a bloody nose..

I should have thought always knowing how much air you have is highly pertinent to an OoA emergency, as in avoiding one happening. Short of the hose to your second stage suddenly blocking or severing and preventing the flow of air, it's hard to think what sort of OoA emergency will suddenly and without warning happen if you have been monitoring your gauges. Almost without exception you'll have SOME warning.

The "distinction" I said I didn't see was between "day to day" driving and a "driving emergency". The point is that until the emergency occurs it IS just regular day-to-day driving.

[DaleC]

The point about structured training is that a simple thing like losing the gas from one cylinder, then having to transfer to another and turn it on first is not remotely stressful. As to "lethal" - well, it isn't that either. The stress does certainly exist, but it takes place during the training in a highly controlled environment. Once you've experienced a potentially stressful problem in training and survived it, with help and probably not on the first occasion, then when (not if) it happens for real it's an issue you've experienced before and you can handle it calmly. In fact, for one agency I teach/taught for it is REQUIRED that during training the student experiences real stress, and works through it to a safe conclusion.

Oddly enough, I'm not new to the concept of structured training. Don't assume that, just because someone chooses a different gear configuration than you, it is because they lack something. You don't need to tear someone else down to make your decision valid.

[Coldwater_Canuck]

In the UK driving instruction and the test are (or were) conducted on public roads, not in simulation.
By simulation I meant there isn't actually an object you need to slam on your brakes for. Although I'm pretty sure the part where we did a stop from 60 to 0 was done in a empty parking lot they were using as an obstacle course, not on public roads.

But this definately wasn't on the driving test, it was just a driving school drill for me.




I should have thought always knowing how much air you have is highly pertinent to an OoA emergency, as in avoiding one happening. Short of the hose to your second stage suddenly blocking or severing and preventing the flow of air, it's hard to think what sort of OoA emergency will suddenly and without warning happen if you have been monitoring your gauges. Almost without exception you'll have SOME warning.

I know they're related, but I don't see the relation in context of where you brought this up. Your original point was that there is a serious training deficiency if you don't open your valve underwater in an OOA emergency. Of course this emergency can be avoided by checking your gauge, but what does the frequency someone checks their gauge have to do with remembering to open the valve?

[peterbj7]

Your original point was that there is a serious training deficiency if you don't open your valve underwater in an OOA emergency. Of course this emergency can be avoided by checking your gauge, but what does the frequency someone checks their gauge have to do with remembering to open the valve?

Sorry, you've lost me.

[peterbj7]

Oddly enough, I'm not new to the concept of structured training. Don't assume that, just because someone chooses a different gear configuration than you, it is because they lack something. You don't need to tear someone else down to make your decision valid.

Sorry, I don't think I said that, and if that's how I was interpreted I apologise.

I actually don't think I've mentioned any particular gear configuration, just total familiarity with and control over the gear you do have.

[DaleC]

I'm pretty sure that's what I said too.

[vasilescu_anton]

As a beginner I had the impulse of getting a pony bottle for myself and I was looking up at the divers carrying one thinking that they probably know better... Until one day when I had to rescue one of those divers who decided to go straight for the surface from a 120ft dive because he was low on air and didn't trust his pony bottle.

The more I dive and I am able to control my air consumption the more I realize that if you maintain your gear and not push the limits you will never be in the situation where you need the pony bottle.

Just my 2 cents here.

[usmarinekurt]

As a beginner I had the impulse of getting a pony bottle for myself and I was looking up at the divers carrying one thinking that they probably know better... Until one day when I had to rescue one of those divers who decided to go straight for the surface from a 120ft dive because he was low on air and didn't trust his pony bottle.

The more I dive and I am able to control my air consumption the more I realize that if you maintain your gear and not push the limits you will never be in the situation where you need the pony bottle.

Just my 2 cents here.

Never??

Oh

[Valaika]

Who's the diver here? You or the instructor? You call the shot if you want to have a redundant breathing source with you, aka pony bottle. It's only your life - who is someone else to tell you to not take a safety precaution?

In an out of air situation, self rescue with a pony bottle, versus any other form, poses the lowest risk. I applaud you for wearing it.

In a low on air situation, where you start doubting yourself and your decision making starts to get a little fuzzy, knowing you have those extra breaths hanging on you will reduce your stress, help maintain a good breathing pattern, and keep you from thinking about rapid ascents or ignoring safety stops.

Stick with your pony!

[DaleC]

As a beginner I had the impulse of getting a pony bottle for myself and I was looking up at the divers carrying one thinking that they probably know better... Until one day when I had to rescue one of those divers who decided to go straight for the surface from a 120ft dive because he was low on air and didn't trust his pony bottle.

The more I dive and I am able to control my air consumption the more I realize that if you maintain your gear and not push the limits you will never be in the situation where you need the pony bottle.

Just my 2 cents here.

Good for you!

Of course, basing a decision regarding the value of gear on the behavior of one person who doesn't know how to use it properly (or at all) is always the best course of action IMO. It's what all the real thinkers do. I once saw a man playing tennis with a flute (he sucked) and haven't liked the sound of woodwinds since.


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Just a note on the whole pony discussion:

It's important to remember that regional differences play a part in the need for such things as redundancy. In tropical waters where the vis is higher and you can see your partner at depth, and with a lighter rig, CESA's and reliance on the buddies air supply may play a more signifigant role than a redundant air source.

In colder climes with lower vis, buddy seperation and heavy rigs are just a fact of life. We are often outfitted more like technical divers, even for rec diving, and reliance on buddy's or CESA's as an alternate air supply is less dependable. Along with good buddy skills and larger back gas supplies, many (some) divers still choose a form of alternate air source such as doubles, independant twins or a pony.

[Blackwood]

Your instructor has the right to their opinion, and you have the right to smile and ignore them and still get your certification, as long as you meet the requirements of whatever agency you're certifying with - and except for possibly some elitist esoteric techie agencies who want all divers to look like clones, I doubt any of them specifies that you can't or shouldn't carry a pony.

>*< Fritz

Every agency has various equipment requirements. They exist only in the context of a course. Once you "graduate," you are free to dive whatever configuration you want. If DC53's instructor of choice is against the carrying of a pony bottle, there are (at least) two options:

1) Don't carry it during the class. It's unlikely the instructor will teach you how to use something he/she is opposed to, so bringing it along offers no benefits. Get through the class and then learn to use a pony.

2) Find an instructor who approves of pony bottles and will teach you how to use one.

[grf88]

Just a note on the whole pony discussion:

It's important to remember that regional differences play a part in the need for such things as redundancy. In tropical waters where the vis is higher and you can see your partner at depth, and with a lighter rig, CESA's and reliance on the buddies air supply may play a more signifigant role than a redundant air source.

In colder climes with lower vis, buddy seperation and heavy rigs are just a fact of life. We are often outfitted more like technical divers, even for rec diving, and reliance on buddy's or CESA's as an alternate air supply is less dependable. Along with good buddy skills and larger back gas supplies, many (some) divers still choose a form of alternate air source such as doubles, independant twins or a pony.

Good comment.

[lowviz]

... so I don’t have a lot of good arguments to keep it except for “what if” and “I take comfort in it”. Opinions?

First, I'm fundamentally in favor of both the pony and its size. Second, I consider myself to have strong minimalist tendencies. Minimalists tend to know, maintain, and trust their gear.

This might be what your instructor is attempting to teach. When you leave your pony behind, you feel uncomfortable. Mild discomfort will improve your focus on what to do if your primary supply malfunctions. It will also improve your gas management skills as you will be aware that you could run out of air. Emergency ascents are no longer something that couldn't possibly happen. What I'm getting at is that you might be compromising your instruction by relying too much on the pony. While you are learning from this particular instructor, ask questions and listen to why he wants you to dive a certain way. When you are through with the course, by all means, add your pony to what you have learned. You don't just strap on a pony, it too is gear that requires practice. -Like orally inflating your BC when you are on the pony. In an OOA situation it better not come as a surprise to you that your inflator doesn't work either.

Stay safe.

[DC53]

.... You don't just strap on a pony, it too is gear that requires practice. -Like orally inflating your BC when you are on the pony. In an OOA situation it better not come as a surprise to you that your inflator doesn't work either.

Stay safe.

As the OP....

Yes these are very good recommendations and I appreciate your providing them. For example going to a pony only to find it low on or out of air is an example of exactly what I am concerned can happen if I do not integrate the pony as an equal and normal part of the package which supports my life underwater. I am sure there are other things that I will learn about living with a pony that I do not know yet but hope to discover (and am happy to receive advice about!)

My own approach and thought is to consider the pony an integral part of my dive gear and not an add-on which is to be separated from other parts of the gear in terms of attention and training. I want to use the pony now because I think that if I learn my balance buoyancy and skills with it the eventual package will feel more normal than if I learn these issues without the pony and add it later. Including it now includes rigorous attention to learning to easily and seamlessly switch between main tank and secondary, constant familiarity with the placement of the primary and pony regulators on the BCD, routine attention to the pressure of the pony tank to the same extent as the primary tank, and attention to buoyancy skills and underwater swimming resistance with the (1.3 lbs negative buoyancy) tank as part of the kit.

In bicycle racing which I pursued when younger, rearview mirrors on the eyeware were looked at as either as silly crutch or as something that could be added later when one was too old to be a serious cyclist. I however, did not want to die as a result of being rear ended by a vehicle (and wanted to glimpse competitors in the final meters to the line), and so included a tiny mirror glued to the eyeware as part of the kit. This “crutch” was learned to a greater extent a little at a time over the years of training with other skills, as opposed to adding it in as an afterthought. Hence at this time, when no longer racing, it has become an integral part of the equipment and I have no more thought of riding the bike without it than most ordinary folks would feel comfortable driving their car without the rearview mirror. It’s use and existence is every bit as intuitive as the other skills the bike requires. And yes, it did save my life on one occasion, and not in a circumstance or location that I would have expected.

It’s an orientation of learning these skills in parallel, rather than in series, to use and electrical analogy. Learning with an additional element integrated will perhaps result in a slightly slower rate of learning the primary skill, but at least in my opinion, a final product of combined skills in which the added element (the pony in this case) is experienced as more integral, and more automatically available and correctly deployed (in the case of necessity.) It then becomes not an element to be added in a situation of additional challenge (in which it is inherently less intuitive and familiar), but instead only one of several well integrated and parallel pathways that one may choose to respond to situations that develop.

I resolve to never become complacent as a result of the added security of a redundant air source and/or to dive something that would be inadvisable with only the primary air supply. The added cost and the slight reduction in swimming speed are irrelevant to me. I already have a low SAC and minimizing factors that will reduce this to some small extent are also of little concern to me relative to the primary function of my scuba equipment which is to keep me alive underwater regardless of the circumstances and conditions, anticipated or otherwise.

For these reasons I have decided to allow the pony to keep its place nestled beside the steel 100 primary, or perhaps between if I go to doubles someday. I hope that my instructor will accept my inclination, even if his experience calls upon him to view this decision with a different set of concerns.

And I appreciate all the input from so many experienced people, through this forum. It has been of inestimable value and has been read with an open mind.

[peterbj7]

Come back here and post a follow-up after your training is over. And good luck!

[FritzCat66]

My own approach and thought is to consider the pony an integral part of my dive gear and not an add-on which is to be separated from other parts of the gear in terms of attention and training.

That is exactly my pony philosophy as well, even if the other divers poke fun for taking it on a 15' Venice sharktooth shore dive. The point is to make carrying it a regular, comfortable, routine, habitual, familiar part of diving for me.

I like the cycling mirror analogy, too. Like then, stick to your guns here as well.

Another analogy: I put my seatbelt on in my car even if I'm just driving down the block. Just a good habit with a familiar piece of equipment. So far, I have never needed that seatbelt or the pony, and I hope I never will. Won't stop me from using both.

Side recommendation: After your AOW, take a look at the SDI Solo certification, where a pony (or other serious redundancy like doubles) is required. Good skills, even if you don't plan on soloing regularly.

Happy pony diving,

>*< Fritz

[lowviz]

It's your decision ...

Now that I understand you better, my suspicion is that you need'nt go further than the first three words of post #2.

Stay safe, the most amazing things happen.

[Coldwater_Canuck]

That is exactly my pony philosophy as well, even if the other divers poke fun for taking it on a 15' Venice sharktooth shore dive. The point is to make carrying it a regular, comfortable, routine, habitual, familiar part of diving for me.

That's my plan as well. I figure it's better to go a little overboard on shallow dives than have different configs based on depth.



Side recommendation: After your AOW, take a look at the SDI Solo certification, where a pony (or other serious redundancy like doubles) is required. Good skills, even if you don't plan on soloing regularly.


I believe that course has a 100 dive minimum, but I'd like to take it eventually. I guess my philosophy is more about self-sufficiency than counting on someone else to bail me out of a problem. That's not to discount the value of good buddy skills, it's just that even if not solo diving, I want to know that I can help myself and my buddy is an absolute last resort. Other people are the opposite (the key to safety is good buddy skills) and I think it's somewhat of a personal characteristic that probably isn't specific to diving but manifests itself there.