Dive Training and Prerequites

[divebuddydale]

Hi All.

I am starting this thread to ask a question. Seeing that the recent death in Long Sault looks to be a diver that went right from OW ot Adv OW. Do you think there should be a time limit / dive minimum between taking courses. Here are the standards for ACUC, NAUI and PADI on going from OW to ADVANCED.


ACUC --> Must have ACUC open Water certification or equivalent and a MINIMUM of 20 dives. (Age depends on the countries legislation and / or parental consent)

NAUI --> NAUI OW or Equivalent and be at least 15 years old.

PADI --> PADI OW or Equivalent and be at least 15 years old.

I personally think that no one should take advanced with just the OW checkout dives under his/her belt. Get a few dives in and get used to the environment. Then after 20 - 40 dives get the additional cert. Lets face it, 20 dives is only about 5 weeks of doing 2 dives on Saturday and 2 on sunday.

What are your thoughts??

Dale

[eagleray2003]

I maybe wrong here but I beleive I have heard that under Padi standards the instructor can always turn down a student that they assess to be not suitable for the course or open water training segment. I also think if an instructor has not seen the student's skill level, they must have the student perform a skill circuit prior to accepting them into a course.
I maybe wrong in my above statement I am not an instructor but possibly some of the pros out there can give us there views.

[divebuddydale]

eagleray2003 once bubbled...
I maybe wrong here but I beleive I have heard that under Padi standards the instructor can always turn down a student that they assess to be not suitable for the course or open water training segment. I also think if an instructor has not seen the student's skill level, they must have the student perform a skill circuit prior to accepting them into a course.
I maybe wrong in my above statement I am not an instructor but possibly some of the pros out there can give us there views.

Not sure about that, maybe someone can fill us in. I heard that the individual that lost his life last week, Trained OW at one LDS and then went to another LDS to do his ADVANCED.

Dale

[Butch103]

.....as I get older and deeper into my diver education.

I initially thought it should be based on the comfort of the individual. But as time goes on, I believe more that the AOW student should have a min of 10-20 dives. The number would be based on the time needed to do the dives and also the variety of the dives. Not ten or twenty dives dives all in the same mudhole. Now I do understand teh difficulty in achieving a variety of dives, as most charters require AOW card for many of their dive sites.

Very hard to come up with the "perfect" answer............

[Bubble Boy]

divebuddydale once bubbled...
Hi All.

I am starting this thread to ask a question. Seeing that the recent death in Long Sault looks to be a diver that went right from OW ot Adv OW. Do you think there should be a time limit / dive minimum between taking courses. Here are the standards for ACUC, NAUI and PADI on going from OW to ADVANCED.


ACUC --> Must have ACUC open Water certification or equivalent and a MINIMUM of 20 dives. (Age depends on the countries legislation and / or parental consent)

NAUI --> NAUI OW or Equivalent and be at least 15 years old.

PADI --> PADI OW or Equivalent and be at least 15 years old.

I personally think that no one should take advanced with just the OW checkout dives under his/her belt. Get a few dives in and get used to the environment. Then after 20 - 40 dives get the additional cert. Lets face it, 20 dives is only about 5 weeks of doing 2 dives on Saturday and 2 on sunday.

What are your thoughts??

Dale
I think you may wish to re-read the standards and or the bulletins put out by the agencies. For instance, to obtain an ACUC advanced card you must already have been certified in two specialties (this is not reflected in your statement).

Questions (there are many more) you might want to ask could be:
1) Should an instructor have to dive a site to become familiar with it before taking a student there?
2) Should brand new instructors be allowed to teach advanced courses? (ie should they be just open water instructors for the first year)....this would apply to cases in some technical agencies as well, where you can be certified as a deco-techniques instructor without having ever certified an open water diver.
3) Should instructors taking a student on an advanced course take the student into a confined pool session first to evaluate the skills?
4) was the equipment properly maintained and was the air good?
5) should facilities that have fatalities have their teaching status suspended until such time as a their agency makes a ruling?

There are many more questions and I do not mean to express any wrong doings but these are some more appropriate questions.

[Butch103]

Bubble Boy once bubbled...

I think you may wish to re-read the standards and or the bulletins put out by the agencies. For instance, to obtain an ACUC advanced card you must already have been certified in two specialties (this is not reflected in your statement).

Questions (there are many more) you might want to ask could be:
1) Should an instructor have to dive a site to become familiar with it before taking a student there?
2) Should brand new instructors be allowed to teach advanced courses? (ie should they be just open water instructors for the first year)....this would apply to cases in some technical agencies as well, where you can be certified as a deco-techniques instructor without having ever certified an open water diver.
3) Should instructors taking a student on an advanced course take the student into a confined pool session first to evaluate the skills?
4) was the equipment properly maintained and was the air good?
5) should facilities that have fatalities have their teaching status suspended until such time as a their agency makes a ruling?

There are many more questions and I do not mean to express any wrong doings but these are some more appropriate questions.

...I think you have made some very valid points in your 5 questions.....particularily #s 2,3 & 5....

[divebuddydale]

Bubble Boy once bubbled...

I think you may wish to re-read the standards and or the bulletins put out by the agencies. For instance, to obtain an ACUC advanced card you must already have been certified in two specialties (this is not reflected in your statement).

Questions (there are many more) you might want to ask could be:


Actually .. on www.acuc.es.. it does not state that you need 2 specialties. When I took my Advanced, about a year ago now, they were thinking of making so you needed rescue diver first, but not sure what happened there.

as for the "Questions I might want to ask" I do not want to focus on any particular accident even though the Long Sault one is fresh in our mind, all the points you made are valid, but are focussed on the instructor, (which I think should be done as well) but I want to focus on the student.

Dale

[j-valve]

Mabey it's not the Advanced cert that's the problem...

J

[SneakyB'tard]

Good thought J Valve

In my opinion (cheap and worthless) I feel that the onus is upon the diver and the instructor. A good diver knows their limitations by either experience or common sense.

Unfortunaltly a new diver, still fresh and gung ho after the check outs, is not experienced enough to exercise common sense in regards to their diving abilities and limitations. Most instructors in the OW phase will sugar coat any faults and oversights that a diver has - as long as they meet the minimum standard to pass and their faults are not on the critical list of agency protocols.

As for the instructors, they must exercise good judgment and almost a sixth sense for students. I have seen this in many first class instructors and they have the ability to see through ones false bravado and assess the true abilities of a diver. If an istructor is either over worked, mislead or under-educated they will miss the warnig signs such as a slim log book, wild stories of numerous dives to 30 feet at the cert pond or simply the date on the C card.

I do have the opinion that certification agencies need to have firm protocols on their prerequisites. If a diver is certified OW and AOW in 2 weeks, odds are something wasn't followed. If a dive accident occurs a facility must assess their full operation before resuming with diver education.

So long story short, it may not be just the course but the combination of the student and the instructor and agency involved.

[Doppler]

Some very good points already brought up here... my two cents worth... precisely what it's worth.

I do teach... they don't let me near open water students anymore... just technical programs and basic skills development. And it's not uncommon to have people tell you all kinds of non-sense about their abilities and their experience... I have the luxury of being an independant and being able to command a high-enough price that a "pre-dive" checkout skills dive is not a luxury but required! But that's not the case generally in the Scuba teaching market.

The easy way is to make this pre-dive checkout a hard-and-fast rule but you know what, people would still fall though the cracks and we'd still have horrible accidents like the one in Long Sault, because this market is driven by price...

Diving is a bloody expensive pastime... I can think of about two dozen friends each of whom has more than $20 grand tied up in equipment. A top-of-the-line drysuit retails at $3500 for god's sake! Yet, over the years, the marketing thrust of the bigger certifying agencies has been to fill the top-end of the sales funnel by making entry-level courses cheap. Trouble is, the consumer get's a distorted sense of value and now, many instructors and shops sell on price.

Now, that leads to another, related issue. There a tempting incentive to offer classes that are less than completely thorough... people get certified OW who frankly should be failed. I am sure we have all seen it. I get taken to task sometimes for being "too strict," and I know if I worked for a store instead of for myself, there'd be pressure applied for me to lighten up.

And so we come to what in my opinion is the core fault... the market may have made diving too accessible, and we have allowed the market to drive standards... and we're going to keep seeing people pay with their health, well-being and perhaps their life.

Sorry to be a downer

Doppler

[Marvintpa]

Sure, it would be possible to make courses harder and more expensive so that only the top X% of all people would eventually become certified divers (this is the way it used to be). But even the agencies with the slackest of standards can point to statistics which show diving is safer than ever, despite the perception that divers are not as well taught as they used to be and that courses are too short, not intense enough, etc.

There will always be divers who get injured/die. There will always be pedestrians who accomplish the same thing.

Is a recently certified OW diver confident and proficient in all cases upon completion of their course? I'd suggest not. The question being discussed here is whether they should be allowed on the advanced course right away or not. Consider which is safer: for the diver to go off and dive on their own (potentially with other equally inexperienced divers) to acquire experience, or immediately go into the Advanced course and dive under the supervision of a trained instructor? I'm not suggesting the instructor provides a great deal of added safety, but I'm guessing there's at least a little.

[Doppler]

Marvintpa once bubbled...
SNIPPED
Is a recently certified OW diver confident and proficient in all cases upon completion of their course? I'd suggest not. The question being discussed here is whether they should be allowed on the advanced course right away or not. Consider which is safer: for the diver to go off and dive on their own (potentially with other equally inexperienced divers) to acquire experience, or immediately go into the Advanced course and dive under the supervision of a trained instructor? I'm not suggesting the instructor provides a great deal of added safety, but I'm guessing there's at least a little.

Your points are well taken, but I'd suggest that we still come back to the core issue. And we are not doing the industry any favors by calling someone who has only dove while under the auspices of an instructor, an "advanced diver.'

By the way, I feel a recently certified OW diver must be proficient -- within the parameters of the definition of OW diver -- on completion of the course. That's the reason for the class. An OW card doesn't say: "Must dive with an instructor." If the certifying instructor feels that a "graduate" from an OW course is not safe to dive unsupervised, she must not give him his card... he has not meet the standards of the course!

I may not have made it clear but my opinion is that fast-tracking people from OW to Advanced is poor value judgement on the part of the instructor, shop and perhaps the agency that promotes and allows the practice.

Doppler

[cobaltbabe]

In my opinion, Doppler you hit it on the nail.

My LDS pumps piles of classes out a year, some students are great and some I have heard horror stories about but they all seem to pass. I chose not to take my AOW right after my OW because I wanted to get the experience under my belt but a friend of mine did his OW and AOW in less then a week. I don't think as a new diver, first, you can absord everything that fast and secondly you can perfect your skills in that short of time. Like I said I am a very new diver and may be blowing smoke out my ears but it might be good to make diving less glamorous and advertise it as it is, A SPORT.

[Marvintpa]

Which would you prefer to dive with: your average recently certified OW graduate, or someone who has not dived in 10 years?

[Bubble Boy]

Doppler once bubbled...


Your points are well taken, but I'd suggest that we still come back to the core issue. And we are not doing the industry any favors by calling someone who has only dove while under the auspices of an instructor, an "advanced diver.'



Exactly, but for marketing reasons "advanced" sells the card. Being a dinosaur diver myself I remember the good old days (not too long ago) when we had OW1 , then OW2, a couple specialties then advanced. Its all based on marketing now.

[Doppler]

And I agree with Marvintpa, that divers will continue to get hurt and perhaps die... I have lost several good friends -- but none of them was doing a class when it happened! You used the analogy of crossing the street or pedestrians or something... well, when a boy scout walks an old lady across the road, she doesn't expect to get hit by a truck.

Are we off topic yet?

[MikeFerrara]

Marvintpa once bubbled...
Sure, it would be possible to make courses harder and more expensive so that only the top X% of all people would eventually become certified divers (this is the way it used to be). But even the agencies with the slackest of standards can point to statistics which show diving is safer than ever, despite the perception that divers are not as well taught as they used to be and that courses are too short, not intense enough, etc.

There will always be divers who get injured/die. There will always be pedestrians who accomplish the same thing.


I apologize in advance for plowing in here and being really blunt but this really is, IMO, a myth of such preportions as to be undescribable by some one of my limited writting ability.

The safety record of recreational diving today (if you want to consider it good) is only because so many dives are done under supervission. Dive skills overall are incredibly low and divers are being hurt and killed for no good reason in accidents that are so prevventable that as far as I'm concerned it's murder.

All this is in the interest in selling equipment with cheap classes tought by minimum wage people many of which have no real experience either.

[cobaltbabe]

Marvintpa once bubbled...
Which would you prefer to dive with: your average recently certified OW graduate, or someone who has not dived in 10 years?

I would prefer to dive with neither. That's why you have to choose your dive partners carefully.

[wetman]

What about 2 certification systems - one that gives you a card that lets you dive only with professionals like instructors or divemasters - which i'm quite sure would cover a great deal of divers and satisfy their needs. If they feel they want to start diving unsupervised, then they could get so many, say 10-20 signed log entries that permit them to take the advanced course after which they could dive unsupervised. Put a system of checks in place that only lets people get air before that if they have a card signed by a pro that says they will be diving with them possibly.

Maybe that would be helpful.

steve

[MikeFerrara]

I have a better idea. Why don't we just nix the whole system and start over.

[seahunter]

When I started diving and training there was a Scuba Diver course. That's it!
It was obvious that many divers wanted or needed more training because some were getting into trouble - some things never change.

Wayne Crowley, myself and a few other instructors started a program called the Diver Experience Program (DEP for short) which was formally adopted by ACUC and is now called their Level II (basically Advanced).
The other big agencies NAUI and PADI already had started devlopment of similar programs and the current continuing education series of courses is the end result.

Let me explain the philosophy that encourages new divers (recently certified) to take the next level ASAP. All agencies agree that new divers SHOULD take the next level (Advanced, Level II, etc) right away!!
The reason is simple. A newly certified diver has the theory and the pool skills pretty much mastered. He has also demonstrated his mastery of basic diving skills in 4 actual dives under supervision.
Now he wants to go diving. In many dive facilities there are very few opportunities for new divers to go diving with experienced divers who will have the time, patience and attitude to work closely with those new divers. The new diver will look for diving opportunities wherever he can find them. It's just a matter of time before he is with a group who want to do a dive for which he is not well-prepared. It could be a night dive, a deep dive, a current dive, etc but his basic training did not give him any actual experience to prepare him for those dives.
I've said it a dozen times on this board - "Peer pressure, not water pressure is what kills divers!". Not wanting to look wimpy or disappoint his new diver friends, the new diver will go along for the dive even though it is beyond his limitations and experience. The certified divers are not trained leaders so they don't likely realize what's going on in the diver's head nor are they prepared for a problem.

I know this is what happens because we often get divers coming in for an Advanced course who have a logged a dozen or more dives including several to 100' and maybe a couple of night dives. There's no reason for them to take the Advanced course - they've already done the dives. Only if they want to go on in the system or if they want to learn how to make those types of dives correctly do they need the Advanced course.

Perhaps you see the point already!! New divers are enthusiastic but not experienced. Doesn't it make sense for them to learn more about diving and make some more dives with professional suervision? Of course! Having learned how to plan and make a night dive or a deep dive and how to use a compass better, they can now join other certified divers and will have the knowledge, skills and more experience so they can make those types of dives safely. They will also now have the confidence they need to make a safe deep dive or night dive - confidence based on training and experience.

Don't be misled by the name of the course - Advanced Diver. It's not for advanced divers. It's for novice divers who want to learn some more advanced skills with professional guidance. And, as I've said above, the time for that is right away - not after a dozen dives in which he had some problems or worse without an instructor present.
Perhaps the name could be changed so those who don't understand the training principles or standards used misinterpret the title - make a suggestion!

Every agency makes the instructor responsible for ensuring the Open Water Divers enrolling in an Advanced course are ready. Some may need a review of the academics or the pool skills. Some will not. The instructor must be sure before they start the course.

I sure don't want to pick on you doppler but this is not fast-tracking at all. In fact, it's responsible training. Taking a basic diver out with a group of experienced divers who are not leader level and suggesting he'll be OK on a dive beyond his training and limitations is irresponsible.

You seem to think that a basic card prepares a diver for scuba diving anywhere, anytime, any how! NOPE!! And he knows that from his training. He has met the requirements for a basic card in scuba diving. It's simply not possible nor logical to assume because he has a card he can make any scuba dive - hence the need for an Advanced course ASAP!

Since I've taken exception to your comments let me continue:
1. Scuba Diving is a very affordable sport compared to almost any other equipment-intensive, adventure sport!
2. You mention that divers don't seem to have a problem when they are with an instructor. Bingo! Take the Advanced course ASAP!
3. Divers today are better trained than in the 'good ol' days' and the stats prove it!
4. You are hanging around the wrong dive stores if you feel they are taking shortcuts in quality to make a buck!

[Doppler]

Marvintpa once bubbled...
Which would you prefer to dive with: your average recently certified OW graduate, or someone who has not dived in 10 years?

Do I get a third choice?

What's your point. Dive where and under what circumstances... am I teaching them or not? Because if this is a fun dive, I pick someone who's a peer... and I know that sounds exclusionary but I get all mother-hen around newly certified divers and one's who've been riding the bench for a decade.

[snuggle]

you are right marie ..you have to choose carefully..but not everyone whos just passed their open water knows many divers with experience who they can dive with..everyone has a right as to who they dive with but how are new divers to gain experience if everyone who has been diving for awhile decided to not dive someone who just got their open water..what it would cause is more diving deaths,because you would have new divers diving with new divers all the time..just think how you would feel if other members of board especially the ontario section decided not to dive with you because your a newbie (which i know would not happen)but just think if it did happen..i remember how excited you were to finally get a date for your open water test..you passed and are now having fun diving with someone who is very experienced and thats great...you were lucky to have divers with experience there to dive with after your open water..i juts found it akward that you would post that you prefer not to dive with a newbie after all the experienced divers that stood behind you 100% and were willing to dive with you..and still do..

[seahunter]

It's too bad snuggle but very common that experienced divers avoid diving with new divers. There are however some very good reasons for that attitude which Marv might share if he's so inclined.
That's even more reason for the new divers to be encouraged to take another course with more knowledge and skills right away and to go on sport dives with their LDS which are most often arranged for novice divers and usually have a leader level present.

[cobaltbabe]

But being new myself, and lucky enough to have dive mentors and friends who have taken me under their wings, I would choose and do choose not to dive with new divers. I also think that the amount of interest has alot to do with the amount of help you will recieve. Yes your right I am very very lucky. I am also surrounding myself with people who dive in the field that I want to dive in, Tech. If you want to put me down for wanting to advance myself that is fine, but I want to be able to do the best I can at a dangerous sport, and to do that I have to surround myself and emmerse myself in the theory and the logic behind it. Diving with a new diver or someone who hasn't seen the water in 10 years doesn't cut it.

[seahunter]

This is the first post I've seen of yours MikeF although several readers have indicated that they like you and your store.
I'm disappointed that you are so negative about the sport. Certainly some shops may have questionable motivation but lots of the good ones work very hard to produce good divers, give them safe diving opportunities and also make a good living.

Selling equipment ought to be the last thing on a dive store owner's mind.
Non-divers don't buy dive gear!
Divers not enjoying themselves don't buy dive gear!
Dead divers don't buy dive gear!

Clearly the correct motivation ought to be to produce divers who have fun and safely. Then the gear sales will follow!!

So far as starting the scuba system over, the current sport diving system is the best we've had - not necessarily perfect but the best!
I've seen more new training agencies start up in the last few years than ever before (and I've seen a lot come and go) so you're suggestion is shared. Unfortunately, I've yet to see the reason for most of them.

[Doppler]

seahunter once bubbled...
When I started diving and training there was a Scuba Diver course. That's it!

I sure don't want to pick on you doppler but this is not fast-tracking at all. [SNIPPED] You seem to think that a basic card prepares a divers for scuba diving anywhere, anytime, any how!



No SH, I do not think that a basic OW card prepares a diver for anything other than dives suitable for their training level. Which translates into taking a very gentle progression and gaining experience while controlling risk.

You and I both learned by being thrown into a pool with the gear in a pile in the deep end... that's not what I am necessarily advocating... although that was fun wasn't it. But I do belive that advanced diver has connotations that we all know are well outside the definition you cited -- which was a pretty good outline IMHO!

Perhaps a name change would help... but the core is still that many, many shops are faced with a market that tempts them to deliver numbers rather than results.

And you know... the name of the course is important... each level of course has certain deliverables. Advanced openwater to me means someone with a pretty good advanced skills and experience.


I will put this into a context that's a little outside the present one but that I know you can relate too...

Recently, I had six candidates -- all buddies -- for advanced trimix. The expectations on this course are that graduates have reached a level where they are the instructor's peers (as far as diving skills I guess). ANYhow, I had them on a skills dive... the same one I use for people who want to improve basic techniques (this is a program for single tank divers as well as those with techdiver stars in their eyes). Anyway, I had never dove with this group before and needed to see them in the water -- shallow water -- before jumping on a dive boat with them. Three of these guys failed!!! I have no idea how they got the certs they had, but they washed from the class, and had no business doing simple decompression dives in my opinion. Every course comes with a standard, and if you don't think someone meets it, don't certify them... maybe I am -- as has been suggested -- too harsh, but so is the ocean and so are the lakes.

By the way, the three that stayed in the trimix program, thanked me for opening their eyes to their deficiencies.

[Tom R]

Limiting yourself to only "tech" types can also have a negitive impact as most people have bad habits, broaden your horizons a little and enjoy diving. Don't be in a rush.

Tom

[snuggle]

theory and logic?what does that have to do with an experienced diver wanting or not wanting to dive with a newbie..are you saying marie that you wouldnt extend to a new diver what other divers have extended to you?sounds hypocrytical dont you think..i think that any diver that had someone show them the ropes would be eager to pass that knowledge around...thank goodness that the divers who have dived with you didnt take the same position that you are taking,or you wouldnt have anyone to dive with at all..i do hope that later on down the line if a newbie ask you to help them out and show them the ropes that youll remember those that helped you..

[Butch103]

cobaltbabe once bubbled...


I would prefer to dive with neither. That's why you have to choose your dive partners carefully.

I can understand the 10 yr lapsed diver...but why not a newbie?? Are you just saying in your particular case, because you are a new diver you would rather dive with an active experienced diver?

[snuggle]

my question exactly butch..

[Boogie711]

There is a huge difference between a 'new diver' and a 'foolish (or brain-dead stupid) diver.'

I don't think CB should dive with new divers unless she's in a situation where her comfort level is at the point where she can handle looking after two lives, and not just her own.

I know I wouldn't dive with a new diver unless I felt comfortable enough in the surroundings, conditions and equipment to get us out of a situation - being in a new dive site, with someone I've never met before wouldn't do it for me. It's not arrogance - it's respect for the conditions and humility.

And of the two - I'd MUCH rather dive with CB, who's speaking the truth, than with someone who attempted a solo dive in a new drysuit and got upset when the board called them on their stupidity.

[cobaltbabe]

I am a Newbie. As for diving with a variety of divers I do. From rec to tech. There is theory behind diving and logic as well. I will dive with anyone who wants to dive with me. Actually that's not true. I have dove with one person I will never dive with again. He was dangerous. At this point in diving, I am still learning. I'm not being hypocritical at all, I am just very lucky to have good friends who are willing to dive with me.

[snuggle]

ohh boogie..was that supposed to hurt or something?well it didnt..tell me something..do you have the mentality of someone who would never dive with a newbie?why you even bothered to drag what happened to me into this just goes to show how you really think with that little mind of yours..but then again there will always be those who will jump on someone for a mistake they made even if it wasnt against them..and by the way i wasnt mad for people calling me ..i knew that they would anyways..and as far as cb being truthfull i never said she wasnt..

[seahunter]

"..dangerous sport.." snuggle.

Please explain that one to me.
Put down your coffee and cell phone while driving up the DVP in the rain before you compose your reply!

Hockey, football, motocross, snowmobiling, fishing, camping, skiing, horseback riding, etc, etc. If scuba is dangerous, these sports should all be banned.

Or are you referring strictly to tec diving?

[snuggle]

yes marie you are a newbie and your are smart in surrounding yourself with people who have been diving for awhile..i wasnt trying to put you down or anything and if i did a apologise..and hey i still dont see what theory has to do with it..logic yeppers but not theory..have a good time diving this weekend by the way..

[divebuddydale]

I have heard it said "The two worst types of divers to dive with are, the newly certified or an experienced diver who thinks he/she knows everything". I would personally rather dive with a newly certified person (which I have done often) than a person who is a "know it all" because the latter tends to take unneccessary risks. I would also make sure the dive site with a newbie is one I am familiar with and feel it lies in their comfort range. I have even went as far as joining the newbies in a pool to see how they handle themselves.

That being said, this topic has gotten off of what I wanted to discuss, do you think their should be a time limit / dive minimum between OW and Advanced??


Dale Sanger

[cobaltbabe]

seahunter once bubbled...
"..dangerous sport.." snuggle.

Hockey, football, motocross, snowmobiling, fishing, camping, skiing, horseback riding, etc, etc. If scuba is dangerous, these sports should all be banned.


In some situations it can be dangerous. That is why we take training and learn about what can happen to our equipment and to our bodies as we go deeper. Learning to watch for signs in your self and your buddy makes it much safer.

And by the way SH, they tried to band some of the dangerous sports but there was such a uprise that they backed down.

[cobaltbabe]

Off topic again. But good conversation with very little put down for once. :) I still think that when you are new you need alot of experience before you take you AOW

[MikeFerrara]

Well we've been reading about a lot of deaths lately it seems like. Not to mention the close calls we read about on the board and see with our own eyes and the ambulance runs where the diver lives.

[canuckdiver]

I will dive with pretty much anybody once, if they show me that they have a fairly level head.

That being said, I have only ever encountered a couple of people that I will NOT get into the water again with, because they are dangerous!


If a person is cool-headed, and logical, then they will not get themselves into situations that are beyond thier abilities, IMHO. It is when a person gets impulsive and excitable that they tend to get themselves in "over thier head".

The choice of a new diver to buddy up with a more experienced diver as a "mentor", I think is wise, because it's going to lead to improving your skills, as well as being insurance that somebody is there that knows what they are doing.

[MikeFerrara]

All you need to be ready for advanced course is to have taken an OW class that lasted more than a weekend, tought you to secure your gauges (as apposed to letting them dangle shamlessly) and to stay off the bottom.

[snuggle]

well put canuck diver..well put

[eagleray2003]

An instructor or shop owner can always say no if they beleve a student is not prepared, you have to think to one degree or another it is money driven by owners and instructors.
To answer your question Dale, from my own observations each individual has to be accessed on their abilities, I have seen new open water student divers who are every bit as good and capable as some divemasters I have seen. Know you want to talk about if a new diver is ready for advanced?
What about the person who has the time money and is driven to go from open water student to instructor in less then a year, put him or her with a group of newly certified divers doing here advanced deep dive and there is a very possible scenario now a days and that is an accident looking for a place to happen.

[divebuddydale]

eagleray2003 once bubbled...
An instructor or shop owner can always say no if they beleve a student is not prepared, you have to think to one degree or another it is money driven by owners and instructors.
To answer your question Dale, from my own observations each individual has to be accessed on their abilities, I have seen new open water student divers who are every bit as good and capable as some divemasters I have seen. Know you want to talk about if a new diver is ready for advanced?
What about the person who has the time money and is driven to go from open water student to instructor in less then a year, put him or her with a group of newly certified divers doing here advanced deep dive and there is a very possible scenario now a days and that is an accident looking for a place to happen.

Eagle Ray... You point out the problem exactly. It is very Money driven. I have been diving for 13 years now, and have seen the progression go from Bad to worse. I know of shops that church out their instructors like on an assembly line. PADI has done miracles for the marketing of SCUBA, but in ways, it has also hurt the industry in that the techniques taught even 13 years ago, are not taught today. (I am not PADI bashing BTW, many of my buddies hold PADI certs.. I personally hold NAUI and ACUC).

I was at one shop a couple years back, and a guy (customer) had in the 2 months prior to me meeting him TAKEN OW, ADV, RESCUE and MAster Diver (I think it was MAster Diver)... way too quick. I think that there needs to be a regulating agency setup in Canada (or whatever country you are in) that assess the skills of the instuctors at the LDS and sets it up that standards are universal (i.e skills taught, # of dives for cert, # of dives between levels and time length).

Just my 2 cents worth

Dale Sanger

[divebuddydale]

divebuddydale once bubbled...


. I know of shops that church out their instructors like on an assembly line.

oops that was suppossed to be CHURN not Church (can you tell I am a minister :-) )

[seahunter]

Sorry snuggle!
You're quite right. It wasn't you that said "..dangerous sport...". My comment should have been directed at cobaltbabe who is an experienced diver and probably said that without really thinking about it.
Very common but still misguided IMHO.

[cobaltbabe]

I hope you were being off the cuff with that one SeaHunter. I have never claimed and never will claim to be an experienced diver. Anyone who thinks they know everything there is to know about anything is dangerous to themself and those around them.

I could argue with you till I'm blue in the face why I think that the sport can be dangerous in certain aspects but until we are face to face I won't bother. Maybe if I'm in TO I will drop by S2000 and we can get a coffee and discuss it there.

Again, I am NOT an experienced diver, god with only 9 dives I would be a fool to think I was.

[MikeFerrara]

Turns out to be dangerous for some, like that poor guy at Gilboa.

[snuggle]

which guy mike are you talking about that 42 year old who died there?

[seahunter]

Interesting and quite correct buddydale.
Most divers who have serious accidents are in their 2nd. year of diving. The premise is that they have learned so much about diving (in their mind anyway) that they can't get hurt. I don't believe the basic courses teach that premise!!

That attitude often comes from the instructor. I don't think it's unfair to say that many instructors have an "I'm better than you!" attitude towards diving. They may not have grasped that the leadership process does not teach diving - it teaches instructional skills. Generally I've found (I currently have 40 instructors working for me and have placed dozens in dive shops around the world) that the more a scuba instructor teaches the more he realizes how much he has to learn about diving and about divers.

I'm not in favor of requiring any number of dives between Open Water and Advanced. My reasons are the same reasons the agencies use and are based on proven educational methodology. Read my prior post to hear the philosophy.

I am however in favor of greatly increased dive experience and training prior to becoming an instructor.
Just to twist your gut, are you aware that one can become a scuba instructor and teach all the scuba courses up to and including Divemaster anywhere in the world with:
- 1 dive deeper than 60'
- 1 night dive
- no dives in water colder than 80 degrees
- no dives in a 7mm suit
- no knowledge about scuba equipment beyond what he's
read in a catalogue
- no dive on a shipwreck
- no dive from a dive boat
- no dive in a current
- no understanding of compressors, filters, air quality etc (don't
tell pufferfish that!)
- no dive on a coral reef
- no dive in fresh water, or the ocean for that matter.

My question is and has been.. How can a scuba instructor prepare a student for the variety of diving without any personal experience?

[MikeFerrara]

snuggle once bubbled...
which guy mike are you talking about that 42 year old who died there?

The one weekend before last. If I remember right he was 26. See the recent "Gilboa" Thread. The other guy was las year.

[MikeFerrara]

seahunter once bubbled...
Just to twist your gut, are you aware that one can become a scuba instructor and teach all the scuba courses up to and including Divemaster anywhere in the world with:


Are you also aware that one gets to become an instructor with no training in diving technique beyond what you get in OW. An instructor is never even asked to demonstrate that he can replace a mask without kneeling on the bottom.

The are never tested on or tought the mechanics of trim. Of course it isn't required that they teach it either.

The standards refer to and require streamlined equipment but I see more students with gauges and alternates dangling that I do with them secured.

Buyer Beware.

[seahunter]

Relax babe (may I call you babe?).

Somehow I got the impression you were experienced. Could be the coherence in your posts - it's not all that common here!

Some divers with 9 dives have a lot more diving savvy than others with many more and, from reading your posts, I'd say you're one of those. I'm certain you'll enjoy scuba safely for a long time with your attitude that on each dive you learn something you didn't know before. You see, with that attitude you not only learn a heck of a lot more than other divers but you also learn how little you know and thus keep looking to learn more. Perfect!!

[cobaltbabe]

You can call me Babe if you want. You might get a nasty note but I doubt it.

I just want to be as informed as possible and have the skills that will allow me to be a good diver and an even better buddy. I care about my dive partners. That's it in a nut shell. I have fun with the ones I care about and don't want it to end. Holy sappy.

[JohnF]

I just finished reading the entire thread and have naturally forgotten who argued what, so I'll name no names. Besides, I'm new here and made the mistake of stomping on toes the first time I hit rec.scuba. 8)

Personally I believe the problem, if there is one, is not about the experience interval necessary before AOW, but the simple fact that it's called Advanced. Seems to me the training and experience acquired under supervision while doing one's AOW cert is going to be most beneficial to a newbie diver. Rename the AOW cert OW2 or somesuch to avoid false confidence deluding the diver into thinking they are actually prepared for what is in reality an advanced dive situation.

A lot of folks gripe about the agencies treating the certs and training as cash cows while sacrificing quality, but I say offer more levels of certification with quality training in practical increments. Teach beginners better buoyancy, breathing, finning, nav skills and some better understanding of the gear and it's selection and application.

Don't sugarcoat or soft-peddle the real emergencies that can occur. Teach the nasty facts, and offer solutions. The truth won't scare too many away. They've already sunk time and money into diving. They're commited. Besides, the truth is that diving is actually very safe when done properly, and the stats back that up. If the truth does scare them away, perhaps it's for the best. But create a need to want to learn more (The good instructors already do this anyway) rather than misleading them into thinking they know it all. Then offer more specific training in things like wreck and cavern, cold water, low viz, drift diving, night diving, rescue etc.

So to get back OT, I don't think there should be any requirement for experience before doing one's AOW cert. Put the onus on the instructors to be forthright with their students about their abilities.

Respectfully
JohnF

[cobaltbabe]

Very very well put John.

You can't disagree with logic when it is put that way.

[Doppler]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Are you also aware that one gets to become an instructor with no training in diving technique beyond what you get in OW. An instructor is never even asked to demonstrate that he can replace a mask without kneeling on the bottom.

The are never tested on or tought the mechanics of trim. Of course it isn't required that they teach it either.

The standards refer to and require streamlined equipment but I see more students with gauges and alternates dangling that I do with them secured.

Buyer Beware.

Mike: sorry to say this mate, you're right on several counts... However, I believe there are a few ITs out there who still think that instructors should have their **** together if they have a hope of turning out decently trained divers... they insist that instructors can demonstrate "basic techniques" -- things like buoyancy -- before they sign their tickets... I do

[MikeFerrara]

Doppler once bubbled...


Mike: sorry to say this mate, you're right on several counts... However, I believe there are a few ITs out there who still think that instructors should have their **** together if they have a hope of turning out decently trained divers... they insist that instructors can demonstrate "basic techniques" -- things like buoyancy -- before they sign their tickets... I do
You are of course correct I was refering specifically to the PADI educational progression...OW- teches dive skills but leavs a lot to be tought in continuing education, AOW- 5 fun dives like navigating while crawling, Rescue - great class but doesn't aim to teach technique, DM-teaches supervission skills and demonstrating skills while sitting on the bottom, Then the IDC and IE. I couldn't prove it but I'm sure some other agencies are similar. The agencies that have IT's who can independantly sign off instructors have other problems like IT's who give instructor tickets to freinds.

In the entire PADI progression there is no mention of trim. You never have to show that you can replace a mask or handle a free flow while controling you position in the water. Buddy skills are given lip service in that there are no specific performance requirements.

And then you end up with instructors who are new divers not schooled in the finer points teaching others to dive in two day certification guaranteed classes. Sorry but it's the blind leading the blind.

[Butch103]

.....to this thread..

CobaltBabe for those that haven't met this lady is a very enthusiastic and intelligent woman. I think will be a great diver

(IMHO, so CB I hope you understand that I was only looking for clarification in your statement.)

Based on the above description I wouldn't hesitate to dive with this newbie.

I have dove with many different divers in my short diving career. The only ones I wouldn't dive with again just happen to be 1 instructor and 1 divemaster in training.....

Changing the name from "Advanced" OW to OW II. Part II of OW.

We can hammer PADI all we want, but my current PADI instructor IMHO is second to none.

He is there to teach students to dive!!!!!Bouyancy using your own God given bouyancy control devices YOUR LUNGS!!! Not overloading with weight and than pump up the BC....

[Doppler]

Mike -- and others -- I always feel we do a general disservice when we single out a specific agency in a general discussion such as this. While one's personal experience may point to something that PADI or NAUI or TDI or GUE does that we argree or disagree with, the unwholesome truth is that the challenge comes from many, many places within the industry. I don't have a suggestion for a fast cure either... but I do think if we want to change things, we have to start with ourselves. You're not going to stop teaching are you?

[MikeFerrara]

Doppler once bubbled...
Mike -- and others -- I always feel we do a general disservice when we single out a specific agency in a general discussion such as this. While one's personal experience may point to something that PADI or NAUI or TDI or GUE does that we argree or disagree with, the unwholesome truth is that the challenge comes from many, many places within the industry. I don't have a suggestion for a fast cure either... but I do think if we want to change things, we have to start with ourselves. You're not going to stop teaching are you?

My last post was agency specific because I know the standards adn what is and is not required. My intention wasn't to agency bash it was to industry bash.

Am I going to stop teaching? Don't know yet. I may continue to teach a few here and there when it seems like a good idea.

[SneakyB'tard]

I agree with Doppler. Agencies are only a tool or delivery method that an instructor chooses to use.

My vision of a good instructor is someone who drives to upgrade their skills not only in the water but in leadership and instruction.

There are many courses that develop an instructors ability to communicate to, interprete and evaluate students. This skill is developed by exposure to other means of instruction, leadership and management. When these skills are present, an instructor is able to be professional and responsible while acting as an educator not a source of revenue.

I would prerfer an instructor that had a well rounded career in instruction and leadership over a standard scuba instructor.

[Scuba_18]

Although the tragedy is still fresh, last year I took my open and advanced open water course. I got my open water in late may and my advanced in october. I had the same instructor for both, which helps but he still looked at my dive log and did a pool session.
Although many people will never wait and have experience before they advanced courses I think they should

But that is just my humble opinion

[taz22]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


My last post was agency specific because I know the standards adn what is and is not required. My intention wasn't to agency bash it was to industry bash.

Am I going to stop teaching? Don't know yet. I may continue to teach a few here and there when it seems like a good idea.

Too bad that you have to bash at all!

We can always find solutions to problems or a better way of doing things. However, we can do this without bashing and/or denigrating instructors, agencies or the industry IMHO.

[MikeFerrara]

taz22 once bubbled...


Too bad that you have to bash at all!

We can always find solutions to problems or a better way of doing things. However, we can do this without bashing and/or denigrating instructors, agencies or the industry IMHO.

Sounds like a reasonable point of view. However it's gotten to the point that with all the dive sites around here there just isn't anyplace fit to take students on a weekend because everything is silted out so bad due to all the divers digging ditches in the bottom. It makes me sick to watch it and it sure as hell isn't diving.

And then there are the dangerous things we see and the occassional ambulance run. Lots of near misses in any given weekend that by luck don't result in injury.

Do you think that the agencies don't know exactly what these places liik like on the weekend?

Do you think these instructors don't know that their class drops the vis from 50 ft to 5 as soon as they get in the water?

[SneakyB'tard]

But there is a problem with the industry, when agencies roll out instructor certs as fast as OW certs, how can the quality remain high?
I am also worried about some of the agencies getting into First responder and AED training......some of these guys are standard first aid certified DM's and suddenly they are First Responder trainers!I know of a first responder trainer that couldn't teach to boyscouts..and they educate adults that now think they can use AEDs and insert airways!
This to me illustrates the powerful revenue side and the weak educator side of the industry.

[Bubble Boy]

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...
But there is a problem with the industry, when agencies roll out instructor certs as fast as OW certs, how can the quality remain high?
I am also worried about some of the agencies getting into First responder and AED training......some of these guys are standard first aid certified DM's and suddenly they are First Responder trainers!I know of a first responder trainer that couldn't teach to boyscouts..and they educate adults that now think they can use AEDs and insert airways!
This to me illustrates the powerful revenue side and the weak educator side of the industry.
Hey sneaky,
I hate to sound like Sea Hunter but I don't like your example. Boy scouts are not easy to teach. LOL :D They dont exactly have the attention span to sit in a class room for two 8 hour days for a standard first aid course. They are however very enthusiastic for the first four hours. To keep their interest when I train them "for free" as a community service like Sea Hunter's "free air", I usually have a paramedic crew visit and do a little tour of the car. It keeps the kids enthusiastic.

[UpperCanDiver]

I don't know about that Sneaky,
The agency you refer to is providing an excellent course to people.
Wouldn't it be better to have a person that had First Response and AED on the boat if you had a problem?

There is nothing wrong with the training, it is as good or better than Red Cross or SJA.

[SneakyB'tard]

:)

True, bad example...I instruct kids as well and they are very difficult to keep focused. 11-14 years olds are difficult.

Should have said "a non effective instructor, who lacked the ability to convey the skills and content"



:rolleyes:

[eagleray2003]

Would you all agree that as well as the speed with which instructors and dive profressionals can acheive certification I find more and more stores and instructors are pushing the envelope and applying the standards very loosely.
For once I will have to agree with Seahunter in that I have seen far to many instructors who have quickly become instructors and really don't know the real responsibility they are accepting when they begin teaching, we used to have a saying for some new instructors we referred to them as having N.I.S. " New Instructor Syndrome" they have swollen heads and think they know it all and when a situation arises with a class they aren't capable of handling it and a managable situation can get out of control very quickly.
I beleive as well as possibly putting more focus on actual diving skills some how we as divers and folks who care about the sport and the industry as a whole have to find a way to get the shops and instructors who don't follow standards either to follow them or get them out of the industry. These people pose a larger threat to the sport than divers who go from open water to advanced right away.
If we as divers don't police it correctly you know who will and that will be bad for all.

[MikeFerrara]

It's not enough to follow the standards they need to follow the intent of the standard. For instance...Every dive for every PADI class has as a requirement that the student must demonstrate good buoyancy control. However there isn't a definition of "good". Just read the board here to see how many instructors believe that basic skills like buoyancy control and trim should be perfected after OW certification. As a result there definition of good becomes what they call good for some one who hasn't learned it yet. In other words they didn't drown.

Surf the web how many 2 day, guaranteed certification, OW classes there are. 2 day advanced classes? Sure you can knoch off 5 dives in two days if the student doesn't have to learn anything new. It works if you don't require no-silting and good buddy awareness while navigating a square. You know let the student crawl a square while the DM follows to make sure the student doesn't disapear. Of course the student doesn't know if any one is there or not they just take it for granted. It works if you let them sit or lay in the bottom whlie they tie their UW knots in a S & R dive. If however you ask that these tasks be performed in addition to good technique over all then it might be a much longer class.

[Bubble Boy]

divebuddydale once bubbled...


Actually .. on www.acuc.es.. it does not state that you need 2 specialties. When I took my Advanced, about a year ago now, they were thinking of making so you needed rescue diver first, but not sure what happened there.

as for the "Questions I might want to ask" I do not want to focus on any particular accident even though the Long Sault one is fresh in our mind, all the points you made are valid, but are focussed on the instructor, (which I think should be done as well) but I want to focus on the student.

Dale
I guess you are right. They used to require the two specialties but like Naui they were forced to lower the bar to compete with PADI programs.

[Butch103]

...PADI is about the money. Although I willnot argue some of Seahunter's POVs, that PADI has injected much money into the fray to heighten the awareness of diving.

If PADI is speeding the training up, reducing the # of dives required for "advanced" training and up to and including instructor, so be it.

Where is it wriitten that some of the other organizations have to follow? Or for that matter the instructors have to follow PADI's example?

As I understand it PADI sets "minimum" standards to be met by the student. Who says the instructor cannot surpase these "minmum" standards?

OK, the bite is that it costs more to do these more "complete" courses. More pool time etc.

Do all the "good" instructors now just quit? Or do they assume the role that Doppler has appeared to take.

Doppler, if I am incorrect in this please accept my apologies and give us a correction.

Doppler is an independant instructor. Chooses his students, does check out dives to achieve some sort of diving proficiency. He then chooses to accept the student or not.

Charges his own fees accordingly.

Based on this, can some the other instructor follow his lead? Can you find a niche as a dive training repairman?

The more we expose incomplete diver training, perhaps the more these independant repairman (PC presons), can find business.

No, you won't attract the masses ass do the other organizations, but you can charge accordingly and make it "profitable".

Is this a practicle thought or is it vastly full of holes?

As an instructor wannabe the thoughts are important to me and should be important to others...

[taz22]

Price seems to be the common theme in a number of posts in this thread. So I ask a simple question ( at bottom after my ramblings):

Is the fact that Scuba Instruction has pretty much become a commodity in the marketplace the root reason of having sub-standard certified divers.

I know one store was offering a IOne Day Ice Diving Course this past winter for $125.00 and another diveshop was also having an Ice Diving Course (cost was $225.00) more dives and the fact that it was a 3 day course (Friday Evening Class, Dives Saturday & Sunday ) seemed to be one element for the increase in the cost at the second store. The second store had to cancel the Ice Diving Course as most people took the $125 1 day course instead.

So do we as divers have to except some responsibility since we "yak" about safety but when it comes down to saving some bucks just to get C-card we choose a lower priced less instruction course?

[mglasspo]

Hi all,

I've skimmed one or two of your posts on this topic (ok, I read most of them), and have my simple answer.

It's all to do with personal choice and common sense. i.e if I choose to dive without a buddy and you die, is it the instructors fault? Not really, it's common sense, it's in the book and diving with a buddy is strongly recommended. Taking an advanced course is the same thing. I waited until I thought I was ready, then I took the course, no problem whatsoever, I had the opportunity on this course to dive with some very experienced divers in the Long Sault area, and being the only student on the course thoroughly enjoyed it. I got to experience near zero-vis at the Milles Roche and for me that's a great experience. I'm a strong advocate of doing only what you feel comfortable doing, just because your certification tells you that you can go to 120ft doesn't mean you have to. Nor should you if you're not comfortable.

As for the should the instructor require a skills test, again, personal choice. I teach Army Cadets how to shoot and I am the Range Safety Officer, unless I know the cadet well, they have to demonstrate firearm safety to me before they go near my range, so I would apply the same rule if I was a dive instructor.

As a student, you should be comfortable with your instructor.
As an instructor, you should be comfortable with your student.

Anything else leaves a big area for disaster.

My $0.22 (I talked way more than my $0.02)

Cheers,

Mike

[Dan MacKay]

Hi Mike,

You highlighted a number of excellent points. To a large degree divers are an uneducated consumer. The three day ice diving course that was mentioned in a previous post that had to be cancelled is a good example as well. The thee day course was more expensive and a better value. $225/3 days = $75/day. $125/1day = $125/day. But invariable the uninformed diver will grab the cheap course.

My question is that when a diver is looking for training why do they for the most part seek the least expensive available. If you needed heart surgury would you not want the very best surgeon that money could but to perform the operation? Well you are donning life support equipment and sticking your head in a place where you cannot breath and in some cases your technique will determine whether you live or die. Do you want the cheapest and least experienced instructor to teach you all he knows or do you want the very best available.

Fortunately there are a few instructors such as doppler and Dan from NTD in kingston who have turned their backs on the situation as it is and walk to the beat of their own drummers. They have failure rates and when a diver should be take up a safer sport such as chess they are not afraid to hurt someones feelings by telling them something that may save their life! Of course this type of top-notch training comes at a premium. If you want the best you have to pay for it.

Of course there is the flip side of the coin as well. The gentlemen in question also have the skill and experience necessary to teach in this manner.

[UpperCanDiver]

Unfortunatly, top notch instructors such as Doppler are the minority.

Due to the large certification machines churning out OW instructors, the superior instructors are left to the exclusive crowd or the Technical side.

The market is fat with instructors that lower the quality and standards of the sport. Every year as more cardboard instructors are circulated, the baseline for new divers and instructors lowers.

Agencies are speading themselves thin by digging into new areas of instruction...boat safety, First response, AED....


What's next.... go to my local OWSI to get my PADI DZ cert?


What about the word STANDARD?
"A degree or level of requirement, excellence, or attainment."

If all instructors must meet a standard and give a course with specific standards.....why are they all different? Why doesn't the agencies put a SRP on courses. An instructor must purchase a cert for $150 ...therefor having to charge at least $250 retail?

Standardize the price and you will minimize the unhealthy competition that harms the consumer.

[seahunter]

Thought I wasn't watching eh?

I suppose I should be irritated by the regular statements such as " I hate to agree with seahunter, but..." or "For once I agree with seahunter...". What the hell is wrong with agreeing with me?
I certainly would be suspicious of anyone who agreed with everything I say but, is there a general assumption out there that I don't know what I'm talking about so shouldn't be listened too?
I'm being rhetorical of course and take as a compliment that some of my suggestions and idea are accepted even if reluctantly.

I just quickly read the last few posts and have little time so I'll just shoot in some throughts to get you going!

1. PADI standards are not the minimum or at least that's not the way to look at them. They are THE STANDARDS! The instructor must teach that material and those skills and nothing else. If he leaves out or inserts additional or personal information (other than personal experiences to enhance the PADI ideas) he is not following the PADI system. This method while it irriates the individual spirit of many instructors, is designed to ensure that every PADI diver at a certain level has the same knowledge and skills as every other other PADI diver at that level.
Having agreed that it's the individual instructor who really determines how bad or good the training is, PADI is simply trying to eliminate that factor. Good instructors can work within the PADI system to ensure good, consistent training while bad instructors have a guige to follow and hopefully get better or get kicked out.
Realize that PADI Instructor training requires you encourage further, additional training ASAP. Some of you will say that is just to make more money. Make up your mind - on one hand you say the divers need more training but you don't want PADI to encourage that because they might make a buck! You can't have it both ways unless you think that scuba instructors should teach for free in which case the sport is doomed. There's no way the industry can survive much less grow and no way the divers will have opportunities to learn and grow if it's run like a club.

UC, you, more than a lot, know exactly why the course fees are often low. A poorly run scuba business is desparate to pay the rent and thinks that a big sale of gear or courses will solve the problem. In fact, it's the first step to failure. In the meantime other equally-misinformed store owners panic and drop their prices.
The problem is not one of divers, PADI, material costs - it's one of great divers (but ****ty business people) trying to run a scuba store.

With respect to training standards, the numbers of instructors and other topics that have been touched on, it seems that some of you have fallen into the same trap - spouting off without knowing or ignoring for your own agenda the actual facts.
You say a good school should be able to charge more but many divers ask for the price only and choose the cheapest without digging further and yet you've made the same mistake, for example...

Guaranteed Certification is a great concept (I'm trying to be modest here) but does NOT mean that either the standards are lowered or that every scuba student gets certified whether good or bad! It is a simple marketing objective that assures the consumer he will get quality training AND consumer protection. IF HE IS NOT HAPPY OR SUCCESSFUL ON THE SCUBA COURSE, he will get his money back!! What wrong with that??

Rating the quality of scuba training based on the time frame to complete it is naive. Dozens of stores have 1 class a month with 15+ students, 1 instructor and a format that takes 8 to 10 weeks to complete the course PLUS another 4 or 5 days to do the O/W dives. It's just a damn waste of the students and instructors time!
Small classes (8 max), low ratios (4 students/instructor), effective use of all modern teaching methods, convenient facilities (pool/class/O/W) and the course can be taught properly and well in a fraction of that time PLUS the new divers are enthusiastic rather than impatient or bored.
It still angers me when someone says that 1 class a week over 8 weeks is better that the same course over 2 fulltime days. How arrogant for an instructor to think that his students listen to him for 3 hours on a Tuesday night and then read and review daily that information in preparation for the next lesson a week later when in fact, they have forgotten half of what he said by the next class. They are lucky to have remembered his name!!


Less than 1% of divers become instructors. Less than 1/2 of those actually teach. Maybe that's good but it certainly shows that there is NOT a tend to 'mass produce' instructors. Current instructor training requires about $3000. From open water to instructor besides the other requirements (time, dives, levels, etc) will require a total investment over $10K to $15K. Certainly the cost no guarantee of producing a good instructor but it does eliminate the wannabees and those not dedicated to a certain extent.

The preqequisites and the requirements for ALL training programs and most particularly the leadership levels (DM, AI and I) have been increasing reguarly. In 2002 and 2003 we saw the biggest jump in requirements to become an instructor that has occurred in several years. Perhaps y'all ought to get current!

MFA (Medic First Aid) and the current EFR )Emergency First Response) courses in first aid, CPR, AED, O2, etc are NOT PADI programs!! They are established medical training industry programs that PADI has made available for scuba instructors to teach. The materials, methods and standards are from the emergency medical training industry. PADI has simply decided that PADI leaders need to have consistently good medical training and has chosen these established programs. Red Cross, St. John's, etc are still accepted but the much more modern and more widely accepted (internationally) MFA and/or EFR are simply better! THEY ARE NOT PADI COURSES!! Perhaps y'all should read the back-up info that accompanies these programs rather than depending on heresay to!

Go nuts! I'm in a good mood! Take your best shot!!

[mglasspo]

Well, I must say I don't necessarily think that a store that is inexpensive isn't a good store. When I shop around for a store, whether it is to buy gear, or to take a class (I'm stuck with one store with that because the service I've received is phenominal) I do a lot of research, talk to divers, check out web forums, talk to my open water instructor (I have the good fortune of working with him), etc. So really, it depends on a lot of things, some stores offer great deals, some are expensive, some give deep discounts if you buy gear too, I don't think it is necessarily a mark of poor instruction. Those schools that do jam their students in, probably don't have a great instructor to student ratio. Which is a bad thing.

As for the comments on should a school teach non-diving courses like boating safety and first aid, I certainly think they should. For first aid, I will hopefully be teaching at least one course this year to a dive school, I'm not a dive instructor. I am a first aid instructor (as well as a few other things), I teach to the military, businesses and as of this season at least one dive school. So it's not taking away from their instructor pool. It's a totally different course, based on totally different protocols and run by different agencies. It just fits VERY well with dive training, because I, for one, wouldn't want to have a dive site free of people with first aid training, so what better place to teach, than a dive school. Either way, dive instructors have to teach at least to the standards. (I'm not going to get into the PADI/NAUI/WHATEVER comments because all my training has been done through NAUI and I have dived with idiots and great divers from both agencies) so you really shouldn't lose out from a school that teaches first aid, diving and safe boating, they go hand in hand, in my humble opinion, and if you are losing out, I would suggest you find another store and let that one go out of business.

This has been another originally short winded but finally long winded reply from Mike ;)