Making my way into Technical Diving

[EgyptinMagicin21]

Hey everyone,

So I'm thinking (less thinking, and more moving towards) about getting into technical diving. A good friend of mine, just took a Fundamentals class, and I fell in love with the kind of training and mindset that technical diving requires. I love diving, and I feel that this is the next step in my dive training.

I have been looking around at gear, and the forums for any information in making my decisions for my gear selection, and I figured it would only do me good to post what I was thinking about getting, as well as my reasons for those particular selections.

Before I start listing, I understand that technical diving...well to be honest, has a stigma for either attracting a-holes, or turning divers into a-holes. So I only say this because if for any reason, one of my selections isn't the best, or could be improved, please explain why, and not just bash me for picking that selection. I'm here to learn as much as I can, not be ridiculed.

Tanks:

I'm leaning towards LP Steel 85's. I was initially considering HP Steel 100's, but with their weight, they might possibly be the only thing I use as weight, which would prevent me from balancing my whole rig, and be dangerous for situations in which I needed to drop weight. I plan on purchasing these at my LDS, if they can get me a good enough deal. I found a whole set up, (tanks, bands, and manifold) for under $800, online.

Regulators:

Scubapro MK25/S600, for both my primary, and back up. This would be DIN connection of course. I don't have much reason as to why, but from experience, and talking with my friend, these seem to be the best for the price I would be willing to pay.

BC:

I plan on buying a whole Halcyon rig. I will be getting two wings, one for single tank, and one for doubles, and then a backplate, as well as the storage pack, as well as all the little snap-clips...etc. I'm concerned as to which backplate to purchase. I don't have the money to buy two separate set-ups, but I don't want to overweight myself with the SS tank. I want the SS for my STA, but I think Aluminum would be the best for doubles.

Gauge:

I think a simple pressure gauge will suffice.

Exposure suit:

I already have drysuit, so no cost there.

Light:

I'm going to put off the canister light for a while, just because I'm only looking at spending about $3000, and I go quite a bit over, even with a relatively cheap canister light factored in. Pending on how much of a deal I can workout, I may be able to swing one. Any suggestions would be great.

Accessories:

Safety sausage, and all the clips and string for attachment. Thats all I can think of for now.


I guess thats all I can think of for now. If I forgot anything, please feel free to add in, and explain why that would be needed, and if there are any changes, once again, please explain why, so that I may see it as a better way of gear configuration, and not just another diver giving me the "my way, or the highway" treatment.

Thanks again for all your time, and I hope to learn a lot from this.

[Sloth]

so which are you? An a-hole to start with or are you planning on becoming an a-hole now that you are thinking tech? Really bad way to make friends :(

Dont know what advice you are really looking for. You got the gear figured out. Just get in the water and start working on your frog kick. Google back kick and helicopter kicks and start trying those out. Get your buddy to teach you the basic 5 and s-drill, do those drills on dives with him. Start being aware of your trim, buoyancy and gas consumption. Take a fundies class when you feel ready.

[DevonDiver]

There's no reason to be an a-hole within the tech sphere. Just keep an open-mind, listen to everyone's opinions, pick the ones you agree with, never stop seeking to perfect.... and then forgo the opportunity to regurgitate those opinions as if they were gospel.

The fundies course is a great starting point, as it serves to benchmark the core skills that should be perfected 'pre-tech'. If you do some searching on Youtube, you will find some informative videos on the fundies skills.

Your equipment configuration plan seems sound. You can't go far wrong with a Halcyon rig and Mk25/S600 regs. The question of tank size/weight/material and backplate material will be determined by your weighting requirements. Be wary of getting your set-up too negative, as the Halcyon wings are only single bladder....so unless you are diving drysuit, you need to consider the impact...and how you would cope with a loss of buoyancy from your wing.

[RJP]

I understand that technical diving...well to be honest, has a stigma for either attracting a-holes, or turning divers into a-holes.



A fair proportion of the world's population is comprised of a-holes, so one should not be surprised to find that the incidence and prevalence of being an a-hole in tech diving is reflective of that in the overall population as a whole.

:D

[DA Aquamaster]

To be fair, tehcnical diving does seem to attract a boit more than its fair share of A-holes who get into the sport for ego driven reasons. But what really makes it worse is that msall percentage of divers and their attitude reflect badly on the 90% if divers who are not that way.

Andy is on the mney when he identifies divers who hear an opinion and then reguritate it as gosphel as being one of the primary A-hole/technical diving association problems.

You talk about being attracted to the mindset. If you view that as a rigid adherance to doctrine or protocol, you are gonna be an A-hole. If you view it as a mindet of always seeking to increase your understanding, always thinking and always knowing why you do things the way you do it, you won't be an A-hole.

With regard to regs, I switched from the Mk 25 to the Mk 17 shortly after the Mk 17 came out 4 or 5 years ago. The Mk 17 is in my opinion a better first stage overall with better hose routing. The Mk 25 has more flow rate (300 SCFM compared to 177 SCFM) but it is at least 100% overkill and not worth the compromises that are required.

Similarly, the G250V with it's larger diaphragm and all metal air barrel is a much nicer second stage, especially on long dives where dry mouth could otherwise be an issue with the S600.

I agree with going with an AL plate, but I am not a real Halcyon fan. They are, to put it bluntly, over priced. I saw an Al plate last weekend for $180 with a SS plate selling for $200. $180 is way too much for an AL plate and a basic one piece webbing harness does not need to cost nearly what Halcyon charges for one. You'll do just as well with a Dive Rite or OMS AL plate and/or harness and save money doing it.

I have Halcyon single (28 pound Pioneer) and double tank (55 pound Explorer) wings, but I also like Tobin's wings at Deep Sea Supply.

The bouyancy differences between LP 85's and X7-100's are fairly minimal (neutral versus -2 lbs) and weight weise the X7100's are only 2 pounds heavier. Unless you can get 3600 psi cave fills in the LP 85's you'll probably find yourself wanting more gas.

If you are really concerned about the potential to be over weighted (which is frankly not an issue in a dry suit where you are also diving dry - offering a source of redundant buoyancy in the event of a wing failure) save your self some money and just dive double AL 80's. You give up very little capacity compared to LP 85's and they will cost you less.

AL 80's are not a bad choice for starter doubles as they are light weight, very inexpensive, have enough gas to be useful on dives to 150 ft or so and can be recycled as stage bottles once you move up to larger steel tanks. Whe you do so the 7" bands can be used on any 7" diameter tank - like HP 100's - and the manifold (as long as you avoid face seat manifolds) can be used on any set of 6.9-8.0" diameter tanks.

Generally, the most common steel tank doubles choices are HP 100's (X7-100s, E7-100s or FX-100s), LP 95's (Fabers are lighter and greatly perferred over Worthington or PST), HP130s (X8-130s or E8-130s), or LP 108s.

If divers move away for those choices, it is normally because they have a very specific reason or need and/or are really tall and prefer a longer tank like the X7-120. Otherwise the other available tank options all have one or more traits that makes them less than optimum compared to the 4 basic tanks listed above.

Currently, you can get a Dive Rite 10 W HID for around $350-$400, so if you save money by moving away from some of the gear with big blue H's on it, you can add a can light and still stay under budget.

[Rhone Man]

I don't know about tec divers being A-holes, but there are certainly plenty of 'em who are very loud and prefer to shout rather than listen. You will also see a tendency towards being patronising to non-tec divers and newcomers.

But they are not all like that. Don't assume the loud ones are representative.

First thing I ever read about tec diving was Gary Gentile's book The Technical Diving Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/Technical-Diving-Handbook-Gary-Gentile/dp/1883056055) (which should be recommended reading for all divers, tec or not). Pretty much the first thing he says is that any gear configuration will involve compromises, so you will need to work out what is best for you and the type of diving you will do over time. That view is an anethema to the DIR philosophy, but I tend to agree with the sentiment.

[rustyshakelford]

check out edd at caveadventurers.com. I think the blue H is over priced and i personally dive dive rite for my bp's (AL and SS) Harness's (Hog and transpac) regs (RG3000's and SPG's) and can light (DR700) and wings (Classic 360 and rec-wing

i think their cost is a little more reasonable and edd can make you a steal of a deal and his customer service is second to none.

good luck

brett

[Blackwood]

I agree with most of what DA Aquamaster (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/members/da+aquamaster.html) said.

85s are nice and compact, but you can always find a way to trim out bigger tanks and you will likely find yourself wanting more gas.

I'm in the same boat myself right now with 100s. I want more gas, and am looking at a larger set of LP steel tanks (like 120s) which are massive (I'll keep a set of 100s for shore diving, the 120s/whatever I get will be boat tanks exclusively), but get the job done.

I haven't used the Mk17s, but the 25s do offer clean hose routing.

Also, and this is the big one: BUY USED!

People are always selling gear. For example, in just one thread currently on TheDecoStop (http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39127), abskw is offering:



ScubaPro-
L Jet Fins $40 in great shape.
XL Jet Fin (only one) with spring heel--make an offer
Reg Bag for double reg set up $20
2 hose protectors- make an offer
H-valve, rebuilt, 0 dives since rebuild. $50
S600 second stage $125
MK25 DIN $150

OMS--
Well used No-sag weight pouches, sun faded in parts $30 for pair
SS knife for mounting on 2 inch webbing
ML IQ pack in excellent condition (like new) with crotch strap and 2 gear pockets $140
100 lb lift bag with SS bolt snap $65
5x 2 inch D-rings $8
Used stage bottle hose kit (2 hoses $15)
10 orange line marker arrows $10 for set
Double bladder bungee wing. Well used, sun faded in parts. needs new corrugated hoses. $75

Halcyon--
5 line marker arrows new $5 for set
NEW stage bottle hose kit (2 hoses) $50

Apeks-

Tek 3 regs (2) with XTX 50 second stages (2), new hoses and OMS SPG. Hoses are Apeks and Halcyon...set up is ready to dive and has only been used ONCE!!! Asking $1200...

Promate
Brass and glass SPG used $25

13cf catalina pony/argon bottle with recent hydro. Will swap for 6cf bottle or $75

[Colliam7]

So I'm thinking (less thinking, and more moving towards) about getting into technical diving. A good friend of mine, just took a Fundamentals class, and I fell in love with the kind of training and mindset that technical diving requires. I love diving, and I feel that this is the next step in my dive training. A very reasonable thought process. I originally expanded in that direction because of a desire to improve the precision of my diving, to develop additional skills, and expand my depth and dive time options. It does not make one a better human being, a more 'worthy' person, etc. If anything it is a humbling experience, well worth the time, money and effort.

DA makes some great comments, and several of mine will echo / build on his.
You talk about being attracted to the mindset. ... If you view it as a mindet of always seeking to increase your understanding, always thinking and always knowing why you do things the way you do it, you won't be an A-hole. And, you will be in the 90% that DA refers to.
Tanks: I'm leaning towards LP Steel 85's. ... I plan on purchasing these at my LDS, if they can get me a good enough deal. I found a whole set up, (tanks, bands, and manifold) for under $800, online. Nothing wrong with the tanks. Outside of FL, where cave fills are more readily available, I infrequently see LP85s in use, at least in the mid-Atlantic areas. HP 100s, 119s, and 130s, as well as larger LPs are a bit more visible. I agree with DA about double AL80s as a possible 'starter' set. Less expensive, great trim, equivalent gas (160vs 170) when filled to working pressure.
BC: I plan on buying a whole Halcyon rig. I will be getting two wings, one for single tank, and one for doubles, and then a backplate, as well as the storage pack, as well as all the little snap-clips...etc. I'm concerned as to which backplate to purchase. I don't have the money to buy two separate set-ups, but I don't want to overweight myself with the SS tank. I want the SS for my STA, but I think Aluminum would be the best for doubles. My only hesitation about the rig is the price-value proposition for Halcyon. There may be more cost-wise approaches, including used BPs, and simple web rigging. Good decision on separate wings. The only time I find an AL plate useful is 3mm wetsuit diving with double steel 120s. I use a SS plate for all singles, and all drysuit doubles. But, that is just my experience.
Light: I'm going to put off the canister light for a while, just because I'm only looking at spending about $3000, and I go quite a bit over, even with a relatively cheap canister light factored in. Pending on how much of a deal I can workout, I may be able to swing one. Any suggestions would be great.
Currently, you can get a Dive Rite 10 W HID for around $350-$400, so if you save money by moving away from some of the gear with big blue H's on it, you can add a can light and still stay under budget.And, this is a very nice little light, well worth the investment. I would put a can light ahead of some of the other items (Halcyon storage pack, for example). I bought a drysuit very early (a year after I started diving) and never regretted it. But, I waited far too long (6 years) to buy a can light, and wish I had purchased one the first year I was diving.

[Cave Bum]

One thing I'd recommend is trying to find a local 'mentor'. Amongst others, I believe SoCal Tec Divers (http://socaltecdivers.com/) is close to you. I know they dive a lot down here in caves as well a lot of techncal wreck diving and have some very experienced technical divers.

As for your choices, I'd wait until you've taken some of your tech classes before I set that in stone. You will certainly find that some of your reasoning will change.

Tanks: Tech divers usually do not add additional weight and want the tank + backplate to be sufficent to sink them. For your area, I'd suggest HP tanks as you probably can't get overfills in SoCal.

Regs: There is a tendancy to steer away from S600 and go with the G250 series in tech circles.

Backplate: Go with the SS one if your going to be doing ocean diving.

Those are some questions you might want to ask, but again, I'd suggest finding a local mentor and waiting to purchase most of your gear until you actually get going in some of your classes.

Just my 2 cents.

Be safe and have fun in the water! Bruce

[Blackwood]

One thing I'd recommend is trying to find a local 'mentor'. Amongst others, I believe SoCal Tec Divers (http://socaltecdivers.com/) is close to you.

He's also close enough to Los Gatos to train with Andrew G @ UTD without much fuss.

[TSandM]

I dive LP85s, and I like them a lot. But the HP100s have almost the same buoyancy characteristics (so you won't really use different weighting with the two sets) and they are actually a little bit lighter to carry. I just bought a set for a second set of doubles for me, but I can imagine getting to where I dive them primarily and use the 85s as a backup set.

I echo the recommendation to look for used stuff. In particular, doubles go up for sale pretty frequently, and the price difference between buying new and buying used is ENORMOUS. I just bought a set of HP100s in hydro with a Thermo manifold for under $500. Regulators, on the other hand, are not quite as good a buy used, because you have to add $100 or more for service to the asking price to figure out what you are actually paying for them.

In California's cold waters, you are going to be using a lot of insulation, and require a lot of weight, so you may well be better off with a SS plate, even with doubles. I started with LP72s and couldn't trim them out, so I went to an Al plate and a big weight belt -- with the 85s, the trim is easier, but I use a 6 lb v-weight with the Al plate, which I wouldn't need to remember if I were using SS . . .

But my final recommendation, and it is a strong one, is to cut costs on the other gear wherever you can, to make the purchase of a good canister light possible. (And they go for good prices, used, too -- I just bought a Salvo 21W LiIon for $500.) Especially if you are going to dive with team divers, the lights are a critical part of your communication and coordination underwater. They literally become a part of you; I had to dive without mine on Tuesday, and felt like I was out in public in my underwear :) Prioritize that purchase over doubles, IMHO. You can work on skills, mindset, situational awareness and communication in a single tank, but the light is needed.

[Blackwood]

In California's cold waters, you are going to be using a lot of insulation, and require a lot of weight, so you may well be better off with a SS plate, even with doubles. I started with LP72s and couldn't trim them out, so I went to an Al plate and a big weight belt -- with the 85s, the trim is easier, but I use a 6 lb v-weight with the Al plate, which I wouldn't need to remember if I were using SS . . .

I had a similar trim problem when I first went to a drysuit with steel doubles from a wetsuit with aluminum doubles: annoying head down trim. So I went to an aluminum plate to allow me to throw a bunch of weight south (10# belt, 3# tail pouch).

Once I had the drysuit figured out and was comfortable with the whole setup, I was able to go back to the steel plate and lose the belt (added 2 more to the tail pouch and a 3# soft "v" weight), using leg position to control trim.

I LOVE not having the belt.

[EgyptinMagicin21]

First of all, thank you all for the responses, and I'm sure, continuing responses to my post.

Second, I want to apologize for making my initial statement about tech diving and a-holes. I didn't mean it the way it came out. I was a bit hesitant about even posting, because of the few tech divers I know on a first name basis...well, I just don't feel like I can even ask them about why they dive what they dive, and other options...etc.

I just want to learn as much as I can, and with all of this advice, I am learning a great deal, and will definitely re-do my initial allocation of money for my pieces of gear.

Thanks again everyone!

[DA Aquamaster]

+2 on used equipment. There are some really good deals out there. But having someone available to consult with who knows what is what is important to ensure you don't get something someone else rejected and that also will not work for you.

+1 on the Gary Gentile book. Just the mention of his name rubs many GUE types the wrong way as well as many very non GUE North East wreck diver types. His handbook is a bit dated and has some pictures of NE wreck diver configurations that are appalling (and hilarious) in a "wear it all where ever it fits" kind of way (which was often I think the intent) but it also has some very good information presented in a manner that explains the rationale behind the practice and makes/helps you think about the dynamically complex, systemic nature of technical diving configuration, practices and gas selection. His stuff on deco gas selection is I think particularly thoughtful.

Another thought that is often considered to be non-GUE is that I strongly beleive most students benefit from exposure to multiple instructors, multiple diving environments and even multiple agencies and philosophies as over the long term it lets them become exposed to other ways of doing things, other ideas and other ways to meet unique challenges or oiptimize their configurations and practices for specific environments.

If you take that path, you will find things you probably won't agree with based on prior training and experience but you will also pick up some valuable information and techniques and more importantly understand why other divers do it differently, even if you choose not to do it that way. The things you do adopt you can adopt without straying too far from a basic Hog/DIR configuration with the understanding that if and when you vary from it, you do so for very specific reasons that optimize your configuration for a specific dive or for the local conditions. A Jersey upline or some variation on the theme is a good example. It is considerd to be very non GUE by many GUE divers (who argue a spool can [might] work in the same situation) but it can be a real life saver in Mid Atlantic coast or NE wreck diving in areas with lots of current, big waves, rapidly changing weather, shipping lanes and surface visibility that can fall to near zero in a very short period of time.

[Doc Harry]

Yes, the H products are over-priced.

But try spending a small fortune on crappy gear that you end up replacing, and you will be willing to spend a little more to get something of quality that will last.

I have been through crappy Dive Rite lights, crappy OMS wings, crappy this, crappy that, and eventually gained a tremendous appreciation for quality gear that I don't have to keep replacing or sending back for warranty repair.

Pick your gear carefully.

[boulderjohn]

When I first started my technical training, the gear issue was (and still is) daunting. I was lucky enough to get into a training situation that was helpful to me in that regard, and perhaps you can find yourself in a similar situation.

I began training with an instructor who had some extra equipment for student use--enough for two students at one time. It was a new program he was trying to build, and I was one of his first students. We used his stuff completely at first, and we conferred with him on ideas for equipment choices. As we progressed, we each bought stuff a little at a time, as we could afford it.

As the program has grown, the more experienced students have also shared equipment to help the newer students. For example, we all store our tanks in the same area. If there is a tech training trip I will not be attending, I know my doubles (steel 108) will be going along to be used by a newer student who is where I was earlier. I won't be asked if it is OK, and I would not say no if I were asked.

As I grew in the sport, I scouted around and found some places where I could get stuff more cheaply. I made some better choices after I was in the sport a while than I would have made if I had bought everything up front.

One advantage of this approach (if you can swing it) is that you get a real taste for how intense this training can be before you spend too much on it. You may decide it really isn't for you.