Dir-?

[saturated]

Hey guys this is kind of a ***** so bear with me. First a little history. Ive been diving breathers since 84' and currently own several. 10 years military and commercial ever since. Am I an expert? no way, I learn sometimes even from the newest of divers.

Here's the *****. I recently took up the hobby of spearfishing on occasion. In Florida it is illeagal to shoot on a breather so I find myself on OC occasionaly. Recently I was on a boat with my Inspiration just shooting some pics. There were a couple guys there with some pretty streamlined rigs. Overall a nice looking setup. So After taking my breather off I went over to strike up a conversation and get some info. I walked over and said I really liked the way they had there gear set up. Nice and clean. I havent had a tank on in over 10 years till recently so most of the OC stuff has changed drastically since last time a partook.

One of the guys looked at me and said it was a DIR setup and I couldnt get one because I'm a breather diver. He then proceeded to tell me how all us rebreather divers have it wrong and the only true rebreather is a halcyon. Not wanting to start an argument I just asked for info on the gear, and I was told that rebreather divers were not allowed to enter any DIR programs, and that is where all the info is.

On the second dive I decided to see just how good these overweight pros were in the water. The rude one swam verticall and had no trim. The second guy was all over the place, up-down, up-down. Basicallly your typical rooks. Nothing wrong with that in itself but to be all knowing and to have skills like that, I was not impressed.

You know I have always loved to share information, I've gotten more guys in my pool on a breather more times than I can count. I also know that I dont know it all, and will never know it all. Diving is an evolutionary proccess. I just cant believe the egos on these guys for obviously having very little experience. That is exactly what kills people, egos.

Anyway from that experience I have totallly lost any respect for that "religion " or whatever it is. You know I went to a little school in panama city, fl. I always thought they were doing it right. But according to these DIR pilots I'm sure the Navy does'nt have a clue either.

Sorry to rant, just never seen anything like the rudeness and egos of these guys. If thats what DIR breeds, my boat will now have a no DIR allowed sticker.:upset:

[boomx5]

That is not what DIR is all about. If you look at what has been written by MHK and some of the more experienced DIR guys, you'll see what DIR is really all about. Also, if you go to GUE's website and get Andrew Georgitsis's email address, you can email him and get all the info you need on GUE's position on rebreathers. Andrew does most the rebreather training for GUE and I'm sure he would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

[Dryglove]

It sounds like you ran into some DIR gear wearing wannabe's. I have only personally met a few "true" DIR divers and found them extremely polite and not rude or obnoxious know it alls. Seems like a lot of the DIR gear wearing clones have the worst attitudes.

[idiot fish]

Thats right they could not possibly have been 'true' DIR divers. They must have been some morons 'pretending' to be DIR. A true DIR diver would never be rude or show such arogance.

(the above is sarcasm for those in the US that dont recognise it)


More DIR elitist rubbish - just in a different guise.

[saturated]

Thanks for the responses. As I said I havent been diving OC in a long time. I'm usually the last one to badmouth an "agency or philosophy" as it s usually the instructor that ultimately determines the competency of his/her students. These guys just really got under my skin. I'm glad to hear not all "dir" guys have that attitude. That expience left a real bad taste in my mouth.

[Dryglove]

idiot fish once bubbled...
Thats right they could not possibly have been 'true' DIR divers. They must have been some morons 'pretending' to be DIR. A true DIR diver would never be rude or show such arogance.

(the above is sarcasm for those in the US that dont recognise it)


More DIR elitist rubbish - just in a different guise.

So have you had a personal bad experience with a DIR diver and im not talking about the ones wearing the gear trying to look cool but swim along feet dragging the ground and cant maintain buoyancy to save their lives. There is more to DIR than just wearing the gear.If you have had a bad experience lets hear it. If not, what are you complaining about

I am just pointing out that my "personal experiences" have been great with the ones i have met at my local diving spots. That may not be the same for everyone.

I personally dive close to a DIR gear set up but dont consider myself a DIR diver.

[detroit diver]

Ya know,

They say that screen names really fit the people that are behind them.

[Scubaroo]

idiot fish once bubbled...
Thats right they could not possibly have been 'true' DIR divers. They must have been some morons 'pretending' to be DIR. A true DIR diver would never be rude or show such arogance.

(the above is sarcasm for those in the US that dont recognise it)


More DIR elitist rubbish - just in a different guise. Hey idiot fish,

Before you start spouting "for those in the US" type tripe, how about filling your profile out and letting us all know where you are from?

I see you're a new user around here, stick around a bit longer and you'll see that ScubaBoard is more community-oriented than your usual online forum, so play nicely please :)

regards

[KentCe]

saturated once bubbled...
Sorry to rant, just never seen anything like the rudeness and egos of these guys. If thats what DIR breeds, my boat will now have a no DIR allowed sticker.:upset:

All the tech divers I have met have been great (above and below the water).

[Braunbehrens]

saturated once bubbled...
One of the guys looked at me and said it was a DIR setup and I couldnt get one because I'm a breather diver. He then proceeded to tell me how all us rebreather divers have it wrong and the only true rebreather is a halcyon. Not wanting to start an argument I just asked for info on the gear, and I was told that rebreather divers were not allowed to enter any DIR programs, and that is where all the info is.

I think we need to start pigeonholing people in a different way. The assumption that they acted like that BECAUSE they were DIR is just simply wrong. You wouldn't think that they acted like that because they were white, or because they had black hair, or because they were republicans? There are a-holes everywhere, and that is what you encountered. Nothing to do with DIR.

Yes, there are some DIR divers who are jerks. There are some DIR divers who are incredibly helpful, and there are DIR divers who are somewhere in between.

Just like anywhere else.

[caveseeker7]

As KentCe pointed out, you already DiveInspirationRebreather. :D

Take a look at Madmole's site, the modified Inspiration withGI3 approval.
PM me for a link if you haven't read the reason for it.

But seriously, saturated, I feel your pain. I had DIR wannabes get in my face about all kind of stuff. From non-Jet Fins to Octo+, twice someone came up to me on boats and started off the conversation that way.

I rather doubt they had the full understanding of what DIR is about. The DIR-F undoubtly teaches a lot of good stuff (get the book and have a look). Plenty of it is usable for any diver, well thought out, and worth knowing. But it's not for everyone. I for one can't live with any 'all or nothing' approach, no matter what the subject is. So I take a JKD state-of-mind with this as well as most other things in live: Learn everything you can and discard what you can't use.

It served me well and broadened my horizon. Even let me have a serious look at DIR. I'm still planning on taking that course. I know that I'll never be DIR by its standards, but believe I'll come out a better diver.

Besides: I know at least one Inspiration diver who has GUE training
And: I met one of the GUE instructors who was way less jaded than anyone who was 'just' diving it (or thought so. Or got Halcyon gear and Jet Fins;) )

[saturated]

Sorry, I was just venting. The 2 individuals I met were indeed GUI trained. apparently about 6mos ago in Northern Florida somewhere. My point being they had the "our way is the only way attitude". They basically dogged me and stayed "on topic" even after I decided to discontinue our conversation. Had they been social and explained there philosophy and configurations I would have sat and listened and probably learned a great deal. While I'm sure there are many great guys that subscribe to the DIR philosophy, I did'nt have the pleasure of meeting them.

[ckharlan66]

by those two. The GUE trained people I have meet have been nothing but friendly. There are putzes in all groups.

Chad

[crazyc]

Amazingly enough I have run into divers that have done nothing other than purchase the gear and purchase and read the Fundamentals book and they feel they are DIR. They have been the ones like the two described on the boat unfortunately. On the flip-side, I have seen divers that purchase the gear and book and just start asking a million questions until they can get themselves into a Fundamentals course.

There is no pre-requisite in the RB80 course standards that says if you already dive another rebreather you can't dive the RB80. (with the proper training)

The guys were just being jerks. Sorry you ran into them.

My first experience meeting up with someone that dives an Inspiration, was mixed, and it was only because of the individuals. One was cool and would talk my arm off about the unit, his buddy was a jerk and wanted nothing to do with any other RB divers.

Some people will give you the shirt off their back...others will steal it from you.

CrazyC

[jepuskar]

How this topic comes up all the time. I own a jacket bc right now, but I am always aiming to be horizontal in the water...sometimes it can be a little rough, but im pretty good about it.


I read a nice little DIR article on the deco stop and I'll be the first to admit I am pretty ignorant about any other setups out there...I am comfortable with my setup, am happy.

However, I heard the jacket style wings help make you horizontal..is that true? I always enjoy watching the video of them doing their safety stop while being horizontal with the bottom part of their legs perpendicular to the surface. I think that would help me with my videography skills. Also, my split fins..I can backup in them, but it is a hard energy wasting process..I am thinking of moving to the non-splitters.

I think people get all caught up in the 'DIR' acronym. I use to make fun of it to get people going, but after reading more about it, some of their concepts make sense. I might make a gear switch soon to check it out, heck there is even a DIR class coming in my area soon..might be filled up though.

Jason

[crazyc]

jepuskar once bubbled...
I always enjoy watching the video of them doing their safety stop while being horizontal with the bottom part of their legs perpendicular to the surface. I think that would help me with my videography skills.

Jason,

It will tremendously improve anyone's video that the only problem is jerkiness. Deco is Sooooo much more comfortable in that position too!

CrazyC

[detroit diver]

I can't believe what I'm reading! I know you're not drinking kool-aid yet, but you're getting close!

In ref to back inflates, any back inflate will help keep you horizontal more than any jacket BC. Yes, you can do it in a jacket Netdoc, but it's a whole lot easier in a wing type. The reason for this is in physics. Think of where the air cell is located on both.

In a jacket, it's on the sides mostly. That places your weight (the tank) above you, and your bouyancy (the air) below you. The physics wants to reverse that, thus forcing you to constantly adjust.

In a BP/wings, the air cell is wrapped around the weight up above you. There is no tendency for anything to switch postions. In a nutshell, it really works great.

But please understand that the equipment alone won't do it for you. You need to learn it and to practice.




jepuskar once bubbled...
How this topic comes up all the time. I own a jacket bc right now, but I am always aiming to be horizontal in the water...sometimes it can be a little rough, but im pretty good about it.


I read a nice little DIR article on the deco stop and I'll be the first to admit I am pretty ignorant about any other setups out there...I am comfortable with my setup, am happy.

However, I heard the jacket style wings help make you horizontal..is that true? I always enjoy watching the video of them doing their safety stop while being horizontal with the bottom part of their legs perpendicular to the surface. I think that would help me with my videography skills. Also, my split fins..I can backup in them, but it is a hard energy wasting process..I am thinking of moving to the non-splitters.

I think people get all caught up in the 'DIR' acronym. I use to make fun of it to get people going, but after reading more about it, some of their concepts make sense. I might make a gear switch soon to check it out, heck there is even a DIR class coming in my area soon..might be filled up though.

Jason

[jepuskar]

I like to learn....and I know I can improve my skills. I am real comfortable now, but I think I can be even more comfortable in the water.

It is not just about the gear configs....some of the skills they do I want to learn.

[crazyc]

detroit diver once bubbled...
I can't believe what I'm reading! I know you're not drinking kool-aid yet, but you're getting close!



Whoops,

Good catch Detriot! I saw "wing" and didn't see the rest where it said (jacket style wing). I guess I shouldn't reply to anything without making it through the first cup of coffee!:)

Thanks for keeping me straight!

CrazyC

[chrpai]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


I think we need to start pigeonholing people in a different way. The assumption that they acted like that BECAUSE they were DIR is just simply wrong.

Yes, there are some DIR divers who are jerks.
Just like anywhere else.

True to a point, but is it really wrong? If you look at at the top guru/vanguards of DIR you will find some definate people who are bitter and love their ego stroking. This attacts others around them who are of the like mineset. Combine this with the culture of the forums they created and I could easily see why people come to the conclusion mentioned above.

[crazyc]

Chrpai,

If you think about the numbers, that is till just a very few people being less than 'loveable' for a lack of a better term. There are people all over the globe learning to dive DIR and accepting it as a way of diving that are not ego driven and don't need people around them to reaffirm that.

CrazyC

[BigJetDriver]

jepuskar once bubbled...
I think people get all caught up in the 'DIR' acronym. I used to make fun of it to get people going, but after reading more about it, some of their concepts make sense. I might make a gear switch soon to check it out, heck there is even a DIR class coming up in my area soon..might be filled up though.

Jason [SIZE=3][FONT=times new roman][COLOR=darkblue]

Jason definitely has the right idea here when he says that "people get all caught up in the 'DIR" acronym." People who view it as a religion and take the "our way or the highway" approach give the subject a very bad odor in the minds of the general tech diving public (if you will pardon the mixed metaphors)! This tends to obscure that fact that there ARE things to be learned from that school of thought.

When I took up tech diving as a serious past-time, my guru, if you will was, and is, Frans Vandermolen, who is a member of the Board of Advisors for IANTD. What he said was: "When it comes to equipment, there is no ONE way to do the job. If you want to make a change to your gear, analyze WHY you want to do it. With that firmly in mind, be SURE, through testing, that it will do what you want it to do reliably. Then use it!"

That is the long form of Sheck Exley's words, as quoted on this board by Caveseeker7: "What works, works!"

Where it all goes sideways is when people appoint themselves "Acolytes of the High Priest" and try to act as religious police for diving, as in the incident so aptly noted by Saturation.

I would have to agree with Braunbehrens, (and he may find it strange that I do), when he said: "I think we need to start pigeonholing people in a different way. The assumption that they acted like that BECAUSE they were DIR is just simply wrong. You wouldn't think that they acted like that because they were white, or because they had black hair, or because they were Democrats? There are a-holes everywhere, and that is what you encountered. Nothing to do with DIR."

As I say, I DO agree! The only caveat I would have to that is the notation that certain of the "High Priests" of that philosophy encourage that kind of behavior with their very public ravings!

We should never stop learning. If we do, our minds just die off from disuse. As Caveseeker7 also quotes: "Complacency kills!"---Richard Pyle.:)

[caveseeker7]

... so eloquently putting my signature quotes into your post. Got them because I think they're both dead on target. Thanks.


BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...

... that certain of the "High Priests" of that philosophy encourage that kind of behavior with their very public ravings!


chrpai once bubbled...

If you look at at the top guru/vanguards of DIR you will find some definate people who are bitter and love their ego stroking


I think you're both on to something here. While he certainly has achieved a lot, neither modesty nor tolerance seem to be in the head honcho's vocabulary. So if you idolise Him, it's probably easy to pick up the bad traits ... :( And with Him spreading the gospel on the net I'm sure he has a huge audience (though probably not as large as His ego). He stomps on people's toes left and right with His rants, and plenty of believers chime in ... :upset:

Is there anybody here that hasn't yet read His infamous Inspiration rant?
http://www.innerrealm.co.nz/dir_details.asp?pk=37

If you go back far enough in the RB posts, you'll find Madmole's answer. It's a great read. :D Yet some people still wonder why we don't love Him and the true believers. :confused:

Now how about some DIR-Diving Inspiration Rebreathers shirts and stickers ?:D

Edited for content: Went back and reread it.
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?threadid=13047&perpage=15&display=&pagenumber=3

[saturated]

Thanks for all the posts,

DIR I've recently done a great deal of reading and examination. DIR does indeed have a great deal to teach. I'll be the first to say my OC skills need a rework. Like I said earlier I've been diving ccr's for going on 20 years, OC dives are few and far between.

I have to say though that from reading the posts on this board and others alot of tempers get hot over this subject. In truth I never met anyone claiming to be DIR until I met the above mentioned asses.

I'm the first to admit that DIR may have a great deal to offer. In fact I plan to take a class to better judge for myself.........

In reference to the "inspiration or expiration". It's kind of funny I've heard it called that and never really knew where they got that from. Most if not all conclusions, especially about the cell placement make absolutely no sense.....All rebreathers, whether its a glad bag with hoses attached or inspiration, all have the same risks. Hypercapnia,hyperoxia,hypoxia. To claim otherwise is riddiculous.

[chrpai]

crazyc once bubbled...
Chrpai,

If you think about the numbers, that is till just a very few people being less than 'loveable' for a lack of a better term. There are people all over the globe learning to dive DIR and accepting it as a way of diving that are not ego driven and don't need people around them to reaffirm that.

CrazyC

True, very few... but they are at the top of the food chain and if they weren't there there would be alot less followers of bad behavior. For some I think its a good cop bad cop thing. Entice certain non-official agents to use the bad cop method and then come in and control them acting like the good cop. MHK Once said:

"This is a plea to the recent proliferation of DIR proponents that have joined this list as a result of the challenge on the Quest list"

Notice the last part of that sentance. "challenge on the Quest list". Now I don't pay to be on that list so I don't know what exactly was said, but obviously it was a call to spread the word. And judging from the "culture" that I know to be on that list a resonible person should have known what woud happen. They did, and thats when they step in with the good cop.

Personally I think its all a strange calculated plan to attract both types of personalities to grow the movement.

[madmole]

I've just sent Inner Realm a demand for royalties for the illegal use of my shovel picture and a reminder that they can be prosecuted for slander if they publish lies

[Tigerscuba]

DIR=Great Marketing,

Dont have much use for it, but then again I dive gear not sanctioned by them. Inspirations are on the top of their hit list.
Why? Because they've taken the market......

[Scubaroo]

madmole once bubbled...
I've just sent Inner Realm a demand for royalties for the illegal use of my shovel picture and a reminder that they can be prosecuted for slander if they publish lies And did Paul reply to you yet? :D

[detroit diver]

Tigerscuba once bubbled...
DIR=Great Marketing,

Dont have much use for it, but then again I dive gear not sanctioned by them. Inspirations are on the top of their hit list.
Why? Because they've taken the market......

DIR=great instruction.

If they wanted to market to the masses, they would drastically lower their standards. Kind of like others do now.

[Braunbehrens]

chrpai once bubbled...


True, very few... but they are at the top of the food chain and if they weren't there there would be alot less followers of bad behavior. For some I think its a good cop bad cop thing. Entice certain non-official agents to use the bad cop method and then come in and control them acting like the good cop. MHK Once said:

"This is a plea to the recent proliferation of DIR proponents that have joined this list as a result of the challenge on the Quest list"

Notice the last part of that sentance. "challenge on the Quest list". Now I don't pay to be on that list so I don't know what exactly was said, but obviously it was a call to spread the word. And judging from the "culture" that I know to be on that list a resonible person should have known what woud happen. They did, and thats when they step in with the good cop.

Personally I think its all a strange calculated plan to attract both types of personalities to grow the movement.

LOL, man, do you take drugs for paranoia?

The "challenge", a really poor choice of words btw, was nothing more than a crosspost. Someone here was accused of teaching "DIR" even though they were obviously not qualified. Some of us thought "what the heck?" and came over here to check it out. That's all.

I personally like this forum, and that is why I stayed.

Yes, I like it when people get turned on to GUE and DIR, because I think it's a great way to dive, and it means I'll be more likely to find decent buddies if I go on a trip. No, I'm not being paid, and I have no affiliation with GUE other than being a member of course and having taken some of their classes.

What you have to understand, is that people don't push DIR because of some conspiracy. They do it because they used to dive differently, and now feel that learning to dive DIR was a revelation. They want to share this with fellow divers.

It's a very natural reaction...if you read a good book, you tell people about it, don't you? Are you paid by the publisher?

[Tigerscuba]

Oh sorry,

DIR=Halcyon

They do indeed offer some great training, On halcyon gear.

[Big-t-2538]

PEople like the ones saturated is talking about piss me off in general.....I don't care if they're DIR, white, purple, PADI, straight, insane, or whatever. Anyone with the attitude of my way's better than yours.....you suck and need to change, blah blah blah....are all people who piss me off, and are a waste of time/energey.

As for the DIR OC gear configuration....if you are into technical diving or wreck diving, it really makes a lot of sense. It is very streamlined and there is plenty of redundancy. As for OW rec divers like myself, we benefit from seeing the skills that these people have to use in caves. these guys have so much control in the water, it made me want to puke...namely b/c I didn't look 1/8th as good as they did, but they don't have much choice if they want to be able to dives caves, leave the environment undisturbed, and get back out if something were to happen.

I am not going to die b/c my frog kick is not perfoect, I am not going to die b/c I can't back up kick without losing a little buyoancy.....but I am also not ready to go in a cave or wreck yet.

As for a jacket BC....if you have one that has some bladder on the back around and next to the tank, you are going to be o.k. It is not perfect or ideal b/c you will not be able to get back into a nice trim position easily, but it will suffice. DD is right with his description from an engineering stand point....but if your jacket doesn't have much (if any) room for air in the back, the rig will not work very well.

Frankly I want to change my gear around and get some new stuff b/c a bp/wing is easier to manage and more efficent....but I have to do a little saving first.

Jason - If you have the chance to take the class, do it, even if you totally disagree with a lot of gear choices or whatever, watching these guys in the water, and seeing yourself on video doing skills is worth the price of the class.

[Scubaroo]

Tigerscuba once bubbled...
Oh sorry,

DIR=Halcyon

They do indeed offer some great training, On halcyon gear. Crap! The only pieces of Halcyon gear I own are a backplate and wing, and some gaiters (which probably aren't DIR anyway) - I'm pretty sure if I rocked up to a DIR-F (one day) with a FredT backplate and an OMS non-bungeed wing they'd still teach me.

If DIR is such a marketing exercise, how come there isn't a Halcyon-branded drysuit or regulator - they are the big-ticket items. And the RB80 would be a lot more accessable rather than only to people who have completed Tech 2 or some such requirement.

The Fundamentals book does push some specific Halcyon gear, but that's not the be-all and end-all of what DIR is. Gear is only part of the thing. People keep getting hung up on the gear issues.

[Big-t-2538]

Tigerscuba once bubbled...

They do indeed offer some great training, On halcyon gear.

As I see it, a Back-plate is a hunk of steel or aluminum.....put whatever label you want on it.

A wing is a wing....but not many people make a singles wing yet....the main thing with a wing is to be sure the bladder and material are durable, the inflator hose is long enough to comfortably reach, but not flap around in the water, and that it has a reachable/functional dump

Jets or whatever solid rubber fin you want are the most all-around efficent for the various kicks and turns for the type of diving cavers and wreck guys do.

Most of them liek Halcyon b/c it is good gear....BMW 900 series of diving gear....it is the F1 division in racing.....call it what you want, they use gear that they like.

Me, I'm a firday night dirt-track guy who is going to have a lot of fun diving.

[saturated]

DIR not DIR who cares, I'm a breatrher guy, always have been always will be. My personal opinion is that the DIR guys may have a great system for OC. But they have'nt got a clue on breathers. Herin lies the problem. Instead of promoting what they know and are good at they attack what they dont understand. Argue till your blue, but I'd venture to say that I may have a couple thousand hours and ten or twenty years on the guys spouting their BS.

As for tigerscubas remarks, for all you OC guys. IN CASE YOU HAVENT NOTICED THIS IS A REBREATHER FORUM. What Rebreather is approved by GUE, The Halcyon rb-80.

You can slam all you want, simple fact remains DIR is an OC regimine and quite good in that niche! They dont know S###t about breathers.

Halcyon, diverite, wahtever....Doesnt mean anything on a breather.

I started this post as a vent, and have appologized to those I offended. DIR is great for OC, but has absoluteley nothing to offer in breathers. If they were truly great they would design courses for existing systems. Why not provide better training on the inspiration if they can do so? If I had the clout to possibly add to the safety of thousands of rebreather divers and develop a program as intensive as the OC DIR appears to be, would'nt that be a great asset to the rebreather community. Instead they spout off, and accomplish nothing.

If DIR had offerings on other units that where as good a training concept as they do on OC and rb80, I'd sign up today!

[Big-t-2538]

saturated once bubbled...
IN CASE YOU HAVENT NOTICED THIS IS A REBREATHER FORUM.


Dude relax....sorry if I ruffled any feathers....maybe you should have originally posted in the Basic discussion forum since it wasn't strictly a breather post in the first place....you were talking about OC for a bit if I remember correctly......

[boomx5]

saturated once bubbled...
You can slam all you want, simple fact remains DIR is an OC regimine and quite good in that niche! They dont know S###t about breathers.

Are you aware of WKPP's accomplishments on rebreathers?

[CincyBengalsFan]

I need to get into Amway and sell to you guys.

[jonnythan]

saturated once bubbled...
DIR not DIR who cares, I'm a breatrher guy, always have been always will be. My personal opinion is that the DIR guys may have a great system for OC. But they have'nt got a clue on breathers. Herin lies the problem. Instead of promoting what they know and are good at they attack what they dont understand. Argue till your blue, but I'd venture to say that I may have a couple thousand hours and ten or twenty years on the guys spouting their BS.

As for tigerscubas remarks, for all you OC guys. IN CASE YOU HAVENT NOTICED THIS IS A REBREATHER FORUM. What Rebreather is approved by GUE, The Halcyon rb-80.

You can slam all you want, simple fact remains DIR is an OC regimine and quite good in that niche! They dont know S###t about breathers.

Halcyon, diverite, wahtever....Doesnt mean anything on a breather.

I started this post as a vent, and have appologized to those I offended. DIR is great for OC, but has absoluteley nothing to offer in breathers. If they were truly great they would design courses for existing systems. Why not provide better training on the inspiration if they can do so? If I had the clout to possibly add to the safety of thousands of rebreather divers and develop a program as intensive as the OC DIR appears to be, would'nt that be a great asset to the rebreather community. Instead they spout off, and accomplish nothing.

If DIR had offerings on other units that where as good a training concept as they do on OC and rb80, I'd sign up today!

Oh my, haha. Come back when you (or anyone, for that matter) beats 18,000 feet penetration at 300 feet of depth on a breather.

I don't know a damned thing about rebreathers, but I know that when you hold world records for rebreather dives, you have something going for you, and some fool on an online forum saying "DIR... has absoluteley [sic] nothing to offer in breathers" is just that.

[Big-t-2538]

saturated once bubbled...
DIR is great for OC, but has absoluteley nothing to offer in breathers. If they were truly great they would design courses for existing systems. Why not provide better training on the inspiration if they can do so? If I had the clout to possibly add to the safety of thousands of rebreather divers and develop a program as intensive as the OC DIR appears to be, would'nt that be a great asset to the rebreather community. Instead they spout off, and accomplish nothing.


here's a link that is all about what some of these guys are doing on breathers.....now I have no desire at this point to be a part of this team, but maybe you could read some of this and decide for yourself what they have or have-not done.

http://www.gue.com/research/wkpp/reports/index.shtml

[chrpai]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


LOL, man, do you take drugs for paranoia?

It's a very natural reaction...if you read a good book, you tell people about it, don't you? Are you paid by the publisher?

LOL, No Drugs Here!! That wouldn't be DIR.

Now seriously, I'm not talking about the people who read the book, I'm talking about the people who wrote it and are directly affiliated with them.

As far as the people who read the book and want to spread it... you've gotta admit ALOT of them don't really understand everything they read and are just preaching it to be elitist and cool.

[saturated]

Quite aware of those accomplishments, Sorry to general a statement. But the rantings of " inspiration or expiration" and all the other backwoods rebreathers were just that ramblings. Making no sense whatsoever.

I think what angers me personally is reading all the slams offered up against other breathers without a solution. My personal opinion is that the inspiration is a great unit. Its the training that leaves much to be desired. SO why dont these guys get involved. Its a great opportunity to not issolate the rebreather community but to include them. Our numbers are growing very rapidly. My concern is that as our numbers grow, the training is going to depreciate. Thats the reason behind DIR isnt it? A viable sound training regimine to replace the eroding training of other agencies.

I am a firm believer that unless someone steps up and gets a program of knowledge and skills together its going to be a long hard road. As it stands now, unless you get a great instructor, you wont know all the necessary skills for survival. With an organization like GUE that has a wealth of good sound knowledge, why dont they offer solutions. All rebreathers have faults, probably always will. The job of us as divers and the different certifying agencies is to expose the faults and develope procedures to minimize their effects.

Bottom line to GUE is dont slam us, get onboard and help us.

[Big-t-2538]

saturated once bubbled...

Bottom line to GUE is dont slam us, get onboard and help us.

Seriously....try getting ahold of AG, JJ, or any of the other big breather dudes at GUE...I beleive that they share the vision you are looking for. Try talking to them, approaching them, and letting them know your experiences. I mean you were obviously diving breathers before the rb-80 came about (I think)....maybe you have some insight they might be interested in.....

So long as you don't approach them with the attitude that the two "DIR" guys gave you, I think you would be surprised.

[Braunbehrens]

chrpai once bubbled...


LOL, No Drugs Here!! That wouldn't be DIR.

Now seriously, I'm not talking about the people who read the book, I'm talking about the people who wrote it and are directly affiliated with them.

As far as the people who read the book and want to spread it... you've gotta admit ALOT of them don't really understand everything they read and are just preaching it to be elitist and cool.

There are jerks everywhere, that's just the way it is. Because DIR can be looked at as a bunch of rules, it attracts some idiots, I'll grant you that. What these people don't realize is the complexity and beauty of the system, and the reasons behind the rules.

I.E. no metal to metal connection...there are lots of metal to metal connections on a rig, the reason behind the rule is really the important thing. But it gives morons a chance to yell "no metal to metal, no metal to metal!" so they like it.

Anyway, I just wanted to make sure you knew that most of us are just regular guys, just like Zaphod.

[saturated]

Thanks,

I think I'll do that, my first operational rebreather dive was on a mark 11, Needless to say I'm getting up there.

Sorry to rant I've been up for a long time....

[BigJetDriver]

boomx5 once bubbled...


Are you aware of WKPP's accomplishments on rebreathers?

ARE YOU AWARE OF WKPP'S ACCOMPLISHMENTS IN THE WORLD OF AGGRESSIVE SOCIOPATHIC BEHAVIOR?=-)

Seriously, though, they have done some amazing work, and no one can knock them for that. There are, however, people who have been as far into caves as they have, and people who have been deeper on mixed-gas rebreathers in caves than they have, (and for that matter, some old geysers who have been on breathers longer than they have), who are nowhere near as arrogant as some of the WKPP'ers seem to love to be.:rolleyes: ;)

[jepuskar]

I think i am going to adopt some DIR equipment habits...having my alternate secondary right below my chin while bungied around my neck..i like that idea...along with a 5' hose for my primary.

BP/Wings also seem like a good idea for me...i am constantly trying to maintain a nice trim position in the water...i do pretty good at it for having a jacket, but im sure it is easier with wings....i think im gonna get the 6lb steel BP too...thats a good idea...hehehe

Spring straps on a pair of non-split fins sounds good too..

I think i am classified as a stroke, but it will be fun to see the difference regardless.

A shopping i will go...

Soo, anyone know the going rate for a new RB80? 9g's?

[caveseeker7]

Sounds about right. For the loop, OC/DSV and switchblock in a box. Frame's extra, as is BP/W. The latter you're supposed to have as you need GUE certs to get the GUE RB ticket. So roughly about three grand more as an Inspiration, Megalodon or Prism (all of which are being used in caves, too).

BP/W combo works nicely OC, in warm water a winged bc is much more comfortable I think. And still gives you backbouyancy. Hose routing is great, but as much of DIR it's been around for a long time, longer than GUE.

Same with spring straps. They're available for non-Jets, too. Including splits if you like those.

And yeah, you're definitely a stroke. So am I. Even though neither of us strokes His ego. ;)

[cornfed]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...

There are, however, people who have been as far into caves as they have, and people who have been deeper on mixed-gas rebreathers in caves than they have, (and for that matter, some old geysers who have been on breathers longer than they have), who are nowhere near as arrogant as some of the WKPP'ers seem to love to be.:rolleyes: ;)

Who?

[Duncan Price]

cornfed once bubbled...


Who?

The British (stated diving CCR's in caves in the 1940's - as did the Italians), French (recent dive to -180 m 12 hr dive in the Goul de la Tannerie (http://www.cavedivinggroup.org.uk/cgi-bin/NThread?Thread=561) on twin SCR's), the Germans (our friends in the EKPP (http://www.ekpp.de/)) and Swiss to name a few. I'm only really up with what the Brits are doing - two of them took their homebuilt CCR's down Cueva Cheve (http://www.cavedivinggroup.org.uk/cgi-bin/NThread?Thread=546) in Mexico and dived a couple of sumps on them to scoop the N. America cave depth record recently....

Duncan

Edit: added links

[BigJetDriver]

In response to a question by "Cornfed", I sent him a private e-mail naming Mike Madden and Mike Fowler as just two. I would like to thank Duncan Price for the information on the other groups.
Their exploits have received almost no public mention, and are certainly worthy of high praise!:)

[cornfed]

Duncan Price once bubbled...

two of them [Brits] took their homebuilt CCR's down Cueva Cheve (http://www.cavedivinggroup.org.uk/cgi-bin/NThread?Thread=546) in Mexico and dived a couple of sumps on them to scoop the N. America cave depth record recently....

Duncan

Edit: added links

How do you figure depth for deco purposes in a sump? The link about Cueva Cheve mentioned that the sump was about 1400 meters down into the cave. Do you do something like adjusting tables for dives above sea level?

Cornfed

[Red Rat]

As far as distance from air is concerned; Cocklebiddy in Western Australia has been dived to a length of 6520m (or about 21 000 ft)

The first guy to hit the 6500m mark swam it. No scooter and no chest beating.

There is a expedition planned for next month to hopefully add a bit more line. There probably won't be anyone jumping on the net and telling everyone how good they are if they succeed either.

[detroit diver]

Red Rat once bubbled...
As far as distance from air is concerned; Cocklebiddy in Western Australia has been dived to a length of 6520m (or about 21 000 ft)

The first guy to hit the 6500m mark swam it. No scooter and no chest beating.

There is a expedition planned for next month to hopefully add a bit more line. There probably won't be anyone jumping on the net and telling everyone how good they are if they succeed either.

How deep was this dive?

[Red Rat]

Averave is about the 16m mark. And before I get jumped on the length is 6260m or 20660 feet. Sorry:embarr:

[saturated]

Impressive!, do you know what gear they use?

[Mverick]

link

http://www.cavepage.magna.com.au/cave/cklbid.html

They seem to go for a day. And stop in an open cave and camp out. Go for another day. Camp out again. Then go for the last day. But these guy's used scooters......

Seemed like the longest continous run they had was 2 hours. Not alot of deco obligations either.

[detroit diver]

Red Rat once bubbled...
As far as distance from air is concerned; Cocklebiddy in Western Australia has been dived to a length of 6520m (or about 21 000 ft)

The first guy to hit the 6500m mark swam it. No scooter and no chest beating.

There is a expedition planned for next month to hopefully add a bit more line. There probably won't be anyone jumping on the net and telling everyone how good they are if they succeed either.

Uh, RedHat,

You might want to read the article again before posting inaccurate information here.

They were NOT 6500m from air. In fact, the traveled short distances to sumps and set up camp ABOVE THE WATER. Then they went a little farther and camped there also.

Please don't try and bash the accomplishments of the WKPP divers regardless of what you think of the team leader. There has been no one, to my knowledge, that has done a 19000 ft penetration at 300 feet. And the only one that has come close are the EKPP divers that are associated with the WKPP, but are based in Europe.

There won't be any chest beating by the Cocklebiddy guys, 'cause there's nothing to beat for. They went on a camping trip and did a little cave diving.


Mverick-thanks for that link.

[Charlie99]

detroit diver once bubbled...
There won't be any chest beating by the Cocklebiddy guys, 'cause there's nothing to beat for. They went on a camping trip and did a little cave diving.It took some pretty serious work to set up the logistics of the "little cave dives".

Detroit Diver, is there something about the DIR mentality that causes you to belittle the accomlishments of others?

[detroit diver]

Charlie99 once bubbled...
It took some pretty serious work to set up the logistics of the "little cave dives".

Detroit Diver, is there something about the DIR mentality that causes you to belittle the accomlishments of others?

Charlie,

Read his post again, and then answer your own question. It was obviously targeted at bashing DIR, GI, and everything GUE connected right from the outset. And he used blatently wrong information to do that.

Let's set the information straight:

1. The divers did NOT dive 6500 meters from air.
2. They USED scooters.

If you read this article, this was a well organized dive and camping trip. As Mverick points out, no dive was greater than 2 hours (big deal). And the average depth was 50 feet! Cave divers do more than this EVERY DAY.

Listen, it's a nicely setup dive, with great TV coverage and a lot of logistics problems. But it's not what RedRat put it up to be. I don't cave dive, but I can recognize the difference between a dive like this and what was accomplished by the WKPP and EKPP. In fact, I can further recognize the difference between what RedRat has posted and a lot of spectacular dives that have not used the DIR method.

This isn't about "DIR mentality", and I think you know that. This is about facts presented about a dive that didn't exist compared to one of the greatest accomplishments of the cave dive world.

[Red Rat]

Thanks for the offer of asking me to read the article posted, but I don’t need to read it. I have been there and dived it to Toad Hall. I suggest you curb your attitude a bit and stop knocking the achievements of others. I was not as you suggest, "DIR bashing". I was merely pointing out that there is a lot of diving going on in the world that isn't shouted from the rooftops as it is in other parts of the world. Your posts have probably done a great deal more harm to DIR by your tone and failure to do any research at all and blindly following the words of others.

For those who are interested; Cocklebiddy is a 6.26km long cave that is about 94% underwater. The dry sections are quite high in CO2 and are a serious obstacle to progress when diving this cave. And as I previously stated when it was first dived no scooters were used. (they subsequently have been though). Western Australia has quite a few caves that are bloody long and well worth a look if you don’t mind a bit of hard work as it is pretty hard going to get to the water in a fair number of them.

[detroit diver]

Red Rat once bubbled...
Thanks for the offer of asking me to read the article posted, but I don’t need to read it. I have been there and dived it to Toad Hall. I suggest you curb your attitude a bit and stop knocking the achievements of others. I was not as you suggest, "DIR bashing". I was merely pointing out that there is a lot of diving going on in the world that isn't shouted from the rooftops as it is in other parts of the world. Your posts have probably done a great deal more harm to DIR by your tone and failure to do any research at all and blindly following the words of others.
.......

Okay, here's your post (and BTW I believe your very first post on this board):

As far as distance from air is concerned; Cocklebiddy in Western Australia has been dived to a length of 6520m (or about 21 000 ft)

The first guy to hit the 6500m mark swam it. No scooter and no chest beating.

There is a expedition planned for next month to hopefully add a bit more line. There probably won't be anyone jumping on the net and telling everyone how good they are if they succeed either.

If you had left out the "no chest beating" and "There probably won't be anyone jumping on the net and telling everyone how good they are if they succeed either" parts, your post would have been informative and possibly interesting to some. But you threw that in for a reason. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that reason was. If it wasn't DIR bashing, please tell us who and what you were referring to. You used the phrase "blindly following the words of others". I think we've seen that before. Isnt' that one of the mantra of the anti-DIR crowd? Kool-aid? GI's mouthpiece? Religious cult?

My posts have just set the record straight, and I'll let those that know me from my past posts decide on my intentions and civility on this board.

You made a great impression with your first post.

[Red Rat]

But you threw that in for a reason.

Yes I did include the points you mention in my initial post for a reason. That being, I have noticed a recent trend in diving that annoys me. There seems to be a growing number of people who think the net is the sole repository of diving knowledge. A lot of quality diving occurs throughout the world by divers who don’t feel the need to jump on the net and tell others what they have done. Duncan posted one example, Dave Apperley bottoming out the Pearce Resurgence is another. These guys just get on and dive. If you feel that is a shot at DIR then fine, that is your choice. As it is to base your thoughts on Cocklebiddy from one article without ever speaking to anyone who has been there or diving it yourself.

Hopefully you now see my point. Have a happy day, it sounds like you had a bad weekend
:)

[Braunbehrens]

Red Rat once bubbled...


Yes I did include the points you mention in my initial post for a reason. That being, I have noticed a recent trend in diving that annoys me. There seems to be a growing number of people who think the net is the sole repository of diving knowledge. A lot of quality diving occurs throughout the world by divers who don?t feel the need to jump on the net and tell others what they have done.

What a hilarious post. Aren't you doing the exact chest beating on the internet that you were just decrying 3 sentences ago?

If there is great diving going on that is not on the net, then so what? It's not widely disseminated, so most people won't know about it, and it's probably only relevant to the people who are doing it. What is your point?

I think your point is to do some chest beating and to make it look like this accomplishment is the same or better as what the WKPP has done. The fact is, in terms of diving, it isn't. In terms of caving in general, it might be, or maybe in terms of logistics, or whatever.

There really is no need to make a big deal. So some guys down under did some good diving. Cheers! The WKPP does some great diving. Cheers!

You accuse DD of being in a bad mood, but in fact you are the one who is "annoyed" by the internet chest beating, and you are the one who is trying to diminish the accomplishments of others.

I suspect you are really annoyed that the WKPP has done some incredible diving, and that the stuff you are talking about simply isn't as impressive.

Instead, maybe you should simply state what was done, and have it be widely disseminated on the net. After all, it is an accomplishment, and lest we forget, diving is NOT a competitive sport.

I for one would be interested in reading about it....it's certainly a lot more impressive than any diving I've done.

I would not, however, be intersted in a bunch of comparisons between the stuff you are talking about and what the WKPP has done. That, IMO, would make for a very boring and dumb read.

Just my .02 of course, no offense intended.

[David Evans]

I'm a recreational diver and an SSI instructor that teaches recreational diving. I'm also a pretty serious photographer. I'm not a technical diver, and I don't teach technical diving. Yet I dive DIR.

The point of DIR diving for most of us isn't that diving DIR allows us to dive 5 miles into a cave system!

The point is that it streamlines our rigs, emphasizes excellent buddy skills and dive planning, improves our finning and communication in the water, and improves our safety underwater. Yeah, it was developed for the most demanding diving environments on earth. But the application of DIR for most people is in the recreational space.

I don't always Do It Right, but I try, and my training has made ME a much better diver than I was before.

So I dive DIR for very, very selfish reasons. I don't silt out as much as a used to. My buddies and I know where we are at all times during the dives. We communicate using a common language, and we know what equipment we each have, where it is, and how we use it.

It makes diving for ME much more enjoyable, because I am more relaxed underwater than I was before. And that means a LOT to me as a recreational diver.

It's also VERY nice that as I progress into more advanced diving, I don't have to un-learn anything or reconfigure anything. The system scales to meet my needs as I grow as a diver.

I have lots of buddies I dive with who are not subscribers to the DIR school of thought - some of them are way better divers than I am. I also know a few divers who claim to "DIR" but in reality don't. We're all individuals that have our own quirks, regardless of the agency we trained with, after all.

But the point is - I don't dive DIR because some guys in Florida or France do some MONSTER dives (although it is impressive). I dive DIR because it makes me more comfortable and have more fun in the water.... isn't that why we all dive anyway? To have more fun?

I've said before - and this is just my opinion - that I think DIR isn't dogma, but rather it's common sense... common sense that has been finely honed and tuned over decades by some of the best divers in the world.

If I were to study diving for years, I am convinced I would come up with something (equipment and communications and practices) that very closely resembles what we know as "DIR". But thankfully, I don't have to do all that hard work.... there's a group of people at GUE that have already done the hard work for me and are willing to teach me what they know.

I believe that successful people in life emulate other successful people, in whatever field they choose to pursue. I try to emulate the diving practices of a group of VERY successful divers, and I am grateful for the training that group of people has given me.

I would advise any diver to take the Fundamentals class. Go in with an open mind, and the promise to yourself that you will use what works for you and throw out what doesn't. I believe that people who go into the training with that attitude will come away from the course with dramatically improved diving skills that will forever change (for the better) the way you approach diving.

Give it a shot.

[Duncan Price]

cornfed once bubbled...


How do you figure depth for deco purposes in a sump? The link about Cueva Cheve mentioned that the sump was about 1400 meters down into the cave. Do you do something like adjusting tables for dives above sea level?

Cornfed

Exactly, the deepest cave dive in the world (Bushmansgat (http://www.fintastic.co.za/nuno_gomes.htm)) starts from a water level 1550 m above sea level.

There's little point is comparing "records" between various sites, whether done open circuit, with or without scooters or solo/team. They are all achievements in their own right with their own logistics and challenges.

Duncan

[KentCe]

David Evans once bubbled...
I would advise any diver to take the Fundamentals class. Go in with an open mind, and the promise to yourself that you will use what works for you and throw out what doesn't. I believe that people who go into the training with that attitude will come away from the course with dramatically improved diving skills that will forever change (for the better) the way you approach diving.


Given this is a rebreather folder, I doubt they would permit a CCR in a DIR-F class (even if DivingInspirationRebreather). As been stated before, it would be great if there was a GUE Inspiration course (assuming it didn't start by digging our own 6' hole :D ).

[cornfed]

Duncan Price once bubbled...


Exactly, the deepest cave dive in the world (Bushmansgat (http://www.fintastic.co.za/nuno_gomes.htm)) starts from a water level 1550 m above sea level.


Thanks



There's little point is comparing "records" between various sites, whether done open circuit, with or without scooters or solo/team. They are all achievements in their own right with their own logistics and challenges.

Duncan

Agreed. I'm just interested in the logistics required to pull these things off.

Cornfed

[David Evans]

KentCe once bubbled...


Given this is a rebreather folder, I doubt they would permit a CCR in a DIR-F class (even if DivingInspirationRebreather). As been stated before, it would be great if there was a GUE Inspiration course (assuming it didn't start by digging our own 6' hole :D ).

DIR or not, I gotta say the whole idea of an electronically controlled closed circuit rebreather is scary.

I'm a photographer - a pretty serious one. I LOVE the idea of diving without bubbles for the purposes of photography. I've never dived a breather before. But if what I read about the death rates among breathers (esp. Inspirations) vs. open circuit is accurate, then I will have to keep blowing bubbles for a while longer.

Uneducated about rebreathers,

-david

[KentCe]

David Evans once bubbled...
DIR or not, I gotta say the whole idea of an electronically controlled closed circuit rebreather is scary.

That was my initial view. But as I did more research on the topic I gained a better understanding (and respect) for CCR units.

The best comment I found that if an OC diver left their tank off, jumped in, sank to the bottom and died then it was "human" error. If a RB diver left their tank off and died, then it was the evil RB fault. I have read about numerous deaths on doubles, but it wasn't the fault of the hardware and people don't call wearing doubles as the death configuration.

So when you hear about a death on a RB, was it human fault (which happens all the time on OC) or hardware failure?

In the real world electronics are a good thing. An electronically controlled airbag is far better than anything mechanical. Of course this doesn't imply electronics always better and the source of rather long threads. :)

For me (rec diver), my OC limitation is NDL. A CCR provides a better mix than OC or SCR for various rec depths.

[BigJetDriver]

David Evans once bubbled...


DIR or not, I gotta say the whole idea of an electronically controlled closed circuit rebreather is scary.

I'm a photographer - a pretty serious one. I LOVE the idea of diving without bubbles for the purposes of photography. I've never dived a breather before. But if what I read about the death rates among breathers (esp. Inspirations) vs. open circuit is accurate, then I will have to keep blowing bubbles for a while longer.

Uneducated about rebreathers,

-david

If you look at what the famous underwater cinematographers of our times use as equipment, you will find various types of electronically controlled rebreathers on their backs. The simple truths are that your dive times are much longer, and fish are friendlier when you are diving a rebreather. (Turtles are not only friendlier, they get downright amorous!)

As for accident rates, as Samuel Clemens once said: "There are liars, damn liars, and then there are statistics!" As KentCE has pointed out, there is a tendency to blame any accident occurring on a rebreather on the "devil machine" itself, rather than the operator error or medical problems that actually caused the incident.

Rebreather diving is NOT the same as open-circuit diving. You must train yourself to a different level. It is more akin to flying an airplane. If you are willing to get the training, do the preflight checks, watch your gauges, and do your post-flight checks, it is actually safer than driving down whatever major interstate you regularly use.

If you have a serious interest, send me a private message off-list and I can give you more information. :D

[Braunbehrens]

If you jump in with your tank turned off you reach back and turn it on.

The simple fact is that there is a lot more that can go wrong on a rebreather, and again a lot more on an electronically controlled one.

There is simply no question that rebreathers are subject to all the failures of OC in ADDITION to the failures of rebreathers.

The warning system for many of these failures is what I like to call the "St. Peter" system.

Everything seems to be fine, and then you are greeted by St. Peter.;)

Diving is all about evaluating and accepting or rejecting risk. Rebreathers are a risk that I chose to reject. Others may chose to accpet this risk, I have no problems with that...if it's a friend of mine, I try to talk them out of it, but in the end we are all responsible for our own actions.

I also won't dive with a rebreather diver, due to the risk to me as a buddy.

[padiscubapro]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
If you jump in with your tank turned off you reach back and turn it on.

The simple fact is that there is a lot more that can go wrong on a rebreather, and again a lot more on an electronically controlled one.

There is simply no question that rebreathers are subject to all the failures of OC in ADDITION to the failures of rebreathers.

The warning system for many of these failures is what I like to call the "St. Peter" system.

Everything seems to be fine, and then you are greeted by St. Peter.;)

Diving is all about evaluating and accepting or rejecting risk. Rebreathers are a risk that I chose to reject. Others may chose to accpet this risk, I have no problems with that...if it's a friend of mine, I try to talk them out of it, but in the end we are all responsible for our own actions.

I also won't dive with a rebreather diver, due to the risk to me as a buddy.

A properly trained , experienced and equipped RB diver is in most liklihood a safer buddy than another OC diver..

I know that on more than one occassion I have donated bottom gas (just handed off a sling) and deco gas (same way)..

If you have a gas problem, I should have more than enough gas to hand the entire bottle over to you and not compromise my safety(and you can do your thing).. If I calculate my bailout right, I have enough gas to easily get a diver (myself or a buddy) out of trouble..

"if you jump off with your doubles turned off you can turn them back on"
You can actually do this MUCh faster on a most RB(since most invert the tanks), and if the diver is doing his checks he SHOULD check his guages immediately upon hitting the water (and before jumping in). Unless you are a total idiot you should have more than enough time to correct the situation..

There are other things that can be done to prevent thius and give a longer reaction time... I usually do an o2 flush of my loop before entering the water(I don't go overboard just try to get it as high as possible).. if the loop volume drops I manually add a bit of o2.. in this way the electronics aren't even an issue at this critical time.. If I had my gas off, The loop would become more difficult to breath (but still supply gas) at this point I knwo the [rpbl;em immediately... Probably every "danger" you can come up with a properly experienced RB diver has a way to eliminate that potential risk..

ANy diver whether it be on an RB or OC deserves whatever they get if they don;t do predive checks and proper gear checking upon entering the water.

A new RB diver without experience probably isn't that good of a buddy since the person's attention will be totally focused on the hardware.. One you know your body, you become aware of everything the RB is doing without checking the controllers.. I know what I expect the controllers to say when I check them.. Nothing happens quickly on a CCR RB you have time for everything.. The most dangerous time is when you are near the surface, while at depth unless you suspect a high PO2 or CO2 breakthrough (proper prep and following guidlines should avoid this) you have much more time than an OC diver to make a reasoned out choice on the best coarse of action.. not this instinct triggered reaction that is necessary when on OC.

If unsure just flush the loop or switch to your bailout for some sanity breaths..

I wouldn't say RB failures have all the failuures of OC... running out of gas is pretty unlikely on a ccr (you really have to be a fool to do it), batteries dying are likely if you don't always change them and track their time (but thats what backup controllers / displays are for)

I have done some deep wrecks with penetrations, on one occasion my guidline was cut and due to some inept divers there was zero viz towards the way out (poor fin control and exhaust bubbles from the oc regs).. on OC this would have been a BIG problem, running out of gas would have been a likely event.. I just rose towards the ceiling and hung out... after a few minutes the silt started to settle and I was able to get my bearings.. I had a little longer deco than planned but so what, I did it all and didn't dirty my drysuit...

[Braunbehrens]

padiscubapro once bubbled...


A properly trained , experienced and equipped RB diver is in most liklihood a safer buddy than another OC diver..

I know that on more than one occassion I have donated bottom gas (just handed off a sling) and deco gas (same way)..

If you have a gas problem, I should have more than enough gas to hand the entire bottle over to you and not compromise my safety(and you can do your thing).. If I calculate my bailout right, I have enough gas to easily get a diver (myself or a buddy) out of trouble..

SNIP


If unsure just flush the loop or switch to your bailout for some sanity breaths..

I wouldn't say RB failures have all the failuures of OC... running out of gas is pretty unlikely on a ccr (you really have to be a fool to do it), batteries dying are likely if you don't always change them and track their time (but thats what backup controllers / displays are for)



The reason I won't dive with a rebreather buddy is because I don't want to have to deal with an emergency caused by them, not because I think they would be unable to donate gas.

As for "sanity breaths", I have read a few accounts of people who've had CO2 problems on a breather, and they were not able to switch to OC. One guy in particular stated that he KNEW that he needed to go to OC, but simply could not do it due to mental impairment.

My biggest problem with rebreathers is the CO2 issue. Simply put, it can happen for a variety of causes, it sneaks up on you, and once you've got it you are too impaired to deal with it properly.

The O2 issue is there as well, although I understand that some guys are so familiar with their rb's that they think they can "tell from the sounds it makes" if everything is ok.

I really don't want to get bogged down in a long discussion here, but the OOA issue is the same in a rebreather as in OC. If you plan the gas right, then you should have more than enough to get you out. If you don't, then you are in trouble. This is no different on a rb. What if the unit fails and you don't have enough gas to do your deco. Same problem as in poorly planned OC.

[Pez de Diablo]

cornfed once bubbled...
I'm just interested in the logistics required to pull these things off.

An excellent book to read is Beyond the Deep by Bill Stone and Barbara am Ende. Details exploration in one of the deepest and remotest caves in the world.

And I don't think you will have to read anything about DIR in the book;)

[saturated]

My biggest problem with rebreathers is the CO2 issue. Simply put, it can happen for a variety of causes, it sneaks up on you, and once you've got it you are too impaired to deal with it properly.

Hypercapnia can in deed be a big problem, especially for smokers. It is however very avoidable. Proper scrubber packing and time monitoring should avoid a co2 issue. As for the bail out to OC, it can indeed be a ***** if your in a bad state. At that point dilutent flushes and running in semi-closed mode should clear your head enough to get to OC. Most guys with great concern in this area add a oc/dsv. with a simple turn of a switch your on OC. The new KM m48 is going to be a great solution if they ever get off their butts and offer it.

As for the acccident rate, there is really no way to compare it to OC. I currently dive 6-10 hours weekly and average profile is 150-250'. I suspect most Inspiration divers are also diving alot, and diving deep. OC incidents are related to an estimated number of dives. Rebreather incidents are usually related to an estimated number of units sold. Also factored in must be natural causes, accidents not related to the gear, and diver error. I think by reading published reports you can eliminate the gear from most of the accidents to date.

I have found that the best diving in my area is in depths of 150' or more. Its off the beaten trail and not quite as disturbed as the local shollow reefs. The opportunity to photograph larger fish, sharks ect. occurs on almost every dive on the deeper wrecks and reefs.

A ccr is definately not for everyone. It is a tool for a specific type of diving. If your typical dive is a 70' reef, then you really dont need one; however, if you find yourself with doubles on every weekend, it may be for you.:)

[BigJetDriver]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
Diving is all about evaluating and accepting or rejecting risk. Rebreathers are a risk that I chose to reject. Others may chose to accept this risk, I have no problems with that...if it's a friend of mine, I try to talk them out of it, but in the end we are all responsible for our own actions.

I also won't dive with a rebreather diver, due to the risk to me as a buddy.

I also won't dive with an OC diver (generally), due to the simple fact that I dive a rebreather to get much more bottom time, and I don't want to cut my dive short when the OC diver has to go back to the boat.

We seem to be forgetting something here. The title of this forum is "All About Rebreathers"! As such, it is a forum for those who are, by definition, interested in learning about, or more about, the subject of rebreathers.

The forum is NOT titled "Defense Against the Dark Arts"! As a self-admitted member of the Amish Diving Society, Braunbehrens does not fancy the use of computers and other new-fangled devil
machines. Since he admits he will never have a rebreather, nor will he dive with rebreather divers, I would suggest that he go to another forum more suited to his tastes and leave us to get on with talking about our devil-machines in peace. :D

[saturated]

Big Bump, lol:)

[cornfed]

saturated once bubbled...
As for the acccident rate, there is really no way to compare it to OC. I currently dive 6-10 hours weekly and average profile is 150-250'. I suspect most Inspiration divers are also diving alot, and diving deep. OC incidents are related to an estimated number of dives. Rebreather incidents are usually related to an estimated number of units sold. Also factored in must be natural causes, accidents not related to the gear, and diver error. I think by reading published reports you can eliminate the gear from most of the accidents to date.


Let's assume you have a design which works perfectly as a whole system yet small errors can have sever consequences. If is very tempting to say the user made a mistake and had they been more careful nothing would have happened; hence it is user error and not a problem with the unit. I disagree. The equipment may have functioned properly but the system itself if flawed.

Granted, my knowledge of 'breathers if very small and limited to "book smarts" but why would you want a system (any system, doesn't have to be diving related) which operates like this?

Cornfed

[saturated]

Could you clarify your position. What is meant by small errors? Expain why you feel the system is flawed. I think the systems have impoved greatly since I started diving on them in 79'.

[jepuskar]

There are people that think Scuba diving in general is a death wish, this is ignorance. There are Scuba divers who think rebreather divers are on a death wish, this is also ignorance. There are rebreather divers who think all non-rebreather divers are ignorant, this is ignorance.

There are some people who lead very happy lives never exploring past their home towns boundaries. This is not ignorance, it is a choice based on ones needs.

There are Scuba divers who do not desire to dive on a rebreather. This is not ignorance, it is a choice based on ones needs.

There are Scuba divers who insist that rebreathers are a death wish. Now that is good ole IGNORANCE!

[BigJetDriver]

jepuskar once bubbled...
There are Scuba divers who do not desire to dive on a rebreather. This is not ignorance, it is a choice based on ones needs.

There are Scuba divers who insist that rebreathers are a death wish. Now that is good ole IGNORANCE!

Jason,

HEAR, HEAR!!!

The only note I will make is that my comment to Braunbehrens still stands. I don't knock his choice to dive as he chooses, but since he does not choose rebreathers, and this forum IS "All About Rebreathers", this is NOT the forum of choice for him!

[cornfed]

saturated once bubbled...
Could you clarify your position. What is meant by small errors? Expain why you feel the system is flawed. I think the systems have impoved greatly since I started diving on them in 79'.

Like I said I know very little about RBs. That combined with the fact you've been diving CC longer then I've been on OC (and almost as long as I've been alive) should make this a rather one sided debate. But making unfounded criticism is the internet way, so here we go...

I wasn't talking specifically about the Inspiration but more about systems design in general. You don't want something which is likely to happen to have a deleterious effect on the system. I won't get satellite tv because the dish would point near a large tree in my front yard. There is a very high probability that the branch will be blown in front of the dish and I'll miss the Simpsons -- small problem, major disaster! I'm not saying satellite is bad; I'm saying that I've done the analysis and it's not worth the risk. If I lived in a wheat field in Kansas with no trees around I'd consider getting it.

With CCRs (the Inspiration in particular) there is evidence, albeit anecdotal, that there are a lot of branches waiting to blow in. Every time I hear about an accident it's always the same, "John Doe died, but it was user error. He forgot to do such-and-such, you really need to be careful with that." I didn't hear many of these stories before I started to wonder why people keep making mistakes. Is the scrubber material too hard to pack? Are they forgetting to calibrate something? Is it task loading? Are people getting RB certified that shouldn't be? I don't know and I'm probably not qualified to address this.

It just seems that if you spend all your time trimming trees sooner of later you'll be staring at static instead of watching the Superbowl.

Cornfed

[saturated]

Well made point. In my opinion there are no small mistakes on breathers. You either do it correctly or you dont.

Training is a big factor in rebreathers as it is in OC. I'm sure there are plenty of unqualified guys diving breathers. I've seen them for sale on ebay.

Pride and impatience cause a great deal of the accidents. Not doing proper predive checks(prebreath). Ignorring audible warnings or bad cell, bad battery warnings. (I made that mistake on batts once). and continuing the dive. Most problems become apparent on the surface. There have been many documented cases of people ignoring warnings and continuing the dive. Its hard to say no when youve paid $50 and spent an hour getting to a dive site. You get out and callibrate your unit and it gives you a battery warning, but what the hell I've got 2 so I make the slave the master and the warning goes away...Fatal Mistake and definately diver error. There are hundreds of things we as users can do to facilitate a problem.


I wasn't talking specifically about the Inspiration but more about systems design in general. You don't want something which is likely to happen to have a deleterious effect on the system. I won't get satellite tv because the dish would point near a large tree in my front yard. There is a very high probability that the branch will be blown in front of the dish and I'll miss the Simpsons -- small problem, major disaster! I'm not saying satellite is bad; I'm saying that I've done the analysis and it's not worth the risk. If I lived in a wheat field in Kansas with no trees around I'd consider getting it.

For the above example, lets say you have cable and a dish. We know that when the wind blows out of the west the tree will block sat reception. So we install a digital weathervane in your front yard. We then give you a remote monitor that gives you wind direction and beeps and gives you a warning when the wind is out of the west. This unit also has a switch to switch from sat to cable. Now if your monitor warns you the wind is out of the west , is it the sats fault you missed your show? Nope you should have switched to cable! What if you look down and the monitors not working? Better switch to cable!

Thats alot of how some accidents have gone down. If you go to madmoles site has pretty good reports on most of the accidents involving the inspiration.

[Braunbehrens]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...

We seem to be forgetting something here. The title of this forum is "All About Rebreathers"! As such, it is a forum for those who are, by definition, interested in learning about, or more about, the subject of rebreathers.



I wasn't the one who started a DIR thread here. I did not raise any new issues, I simply replied to the ones that were already raised.

Are you so scared of "the amish diver" that you have to ask him to leave? If that is the case, I suggest you re-examine what it is you are really so scared of.

[BigJetDriver]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...



I wasn't the one who started a DIR thread here. I did not raise any new issues, I simply replied to the ones that were already raised.

Are you so scared of "the amish diver" that you have to ask him to leave? If that is the case, I suggest you re-examine what it is you are really so scared of.

Braunbehrens,

You MISSED the whole point. YOU don't like rebreathers, judging by your own words. You don't want to have a rebreather, judging by your own words. You don't want to dive with folks who dive on rebreathers, judging by your own words.

Since this forum is entitled "All About Rebreathers", this is, by your own admission, NOT the forum of choice for YOU. So, what is your agenda here?

As for being scared, yes, I will admit to having been scared once or twice in my life. As a Combat Air Rescue pilot, and later as a pilot for "The State Department", I've been shot at more than most people will ever have hot dinners, and mobbed, and chased...and more! As a police officer, (I am currently serving---It is one of several "hats" I wear.) I still go in harm's way by choice! I also pilot an Extended Range Rebreather and am working my way down to 600 fsw. Since I do this by choice, I could be described as somewhat crazy, but then so could all of us as divers.

Am I scared of "The Amish Diving Society"? Not bloody likely, my friend! It may surprise you to know that if you check my posts in other areas, I even recommend GUE training, among other agencies! I will be the first to say that they have some damn good things to offer!

Nevertheless, the point is STILL this:

This forum is entitled "All About Rebreathers"! By definition it is for those who want to learn about, or learn MORE about rebreathers. We have some excellent resources here, such our writer "Saturation", who has more time on "re-breathers" than some have just "breathing"! This forum is NOT entitled "I don't care about rebreathers and all I want to do is hang around and knock their use"! Since the latter seems to be your agenda, again judging by your own words, please hang up the phone!=-)

[saturated]

Braunbehrens




I suggest you re-examine what it is you are really so scared of.

In a word, missinformation.

I originally started this thread because of a bad experience. I had no comprehension of GUE, DIR. Since then I have appologized. I spouted off and bashed a group when it was only the two I met I should have bashed. Since then I have had correspondence with some great GUE trained guys and have learned a great deal. I was wrong to bash an entire goup on the actions of a few. I was uninformed and misinformed and had no right to spread my level of misinformation.

[Braunbehrens]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...


SNIP a bunch of unrelated stuff SNIP

This forum is NOT entitled "I don't care about rebreathers and all I want to do is hang around and knock their use"! Since the latter seems to be your agenda, again judging by your own words, please hang up the phone!=-)

Not at all. If you examine my posts in this thread I was responding to a question about DIR divers. I don't hang aoround here, other than this thread, so don't worry your pretty little head about it.

I also don't think this forum is only for people who love rebreathers. I think it's for all people who wish to discuss ANYTHING to do with rebreathers, including whether or not they are a reasonable choice for a given dive, or any dive for that matter.

I have to say, I don't enjoy your personal attacks. It's always ironic to me when DIR divers get attacked in this way, especially when they are nice and curteous people.

If you have an argument, make it. If you don't, then I suggest YOU hang up the phone, as you say.

P.S. Edited just to add this note: I don't hold BigJets attitude against all rebreather divers. I know plenty of friendly ones.

[cornfed]

saturated once bubbled...

For the above example, lets say you have cable and a dish. We know that when the wind blows out of the west the tree will block sat reception. So we install a digital weathervane in your front yard. We then give you a remote monitor that gives you wind direction and beeps and gives you a warning when the wind is out of the west. This unit also has a switch to switch from sat to cable. Now if your monitor warns you the wind is out of the west , is it the sats fault you missed your show? Nope you should have switched to cable! What if you look down and the monitors not working? Better switch to cable!


You're right, it's your fault you missed your show. But that doesn't mean the system wasn't designed poorly. You're using the cable to backup the dish when the cable can do the job by itself.

If you can't reach around you ass and get you elbow it certainly isn't your ass' fault. Sure you can take yoga and increase your flexabilty or you could just leave your ass out of the equation.



Thats alot of how some accidents have gone down. If you go to madmoles site has pretty good reports on most of the accidents involving the inspiration.

Do you have the url?

Cornfed

[JeffG]

The Link Mad Mole (http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/divemole.htm )

[cornfed]

JeffG once bubbled...
The Link Mad Mole (http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/divemole.htm )

thanks...

[saturated]

If satelite is the premium(ccr) and cable is the backup(oc). then you have 2 ways to get the desired result.(simpsons). While sat is the prefered method and may indeed work flawlessly till your 90 years old, cable is there to get your show should the dish fail. It is however your responsibility to notice the dish failure by monitoring the monitor and switch to cable should a failure occur.

Unfortunately most of the dives I do OC is not an option. CCR is definately the best solution unless you've got surface supplied rigs and a saturation enviroment. But most of us cant afford that. I am in no way suggesting that breathers are perfect. There indeed could be alot of improvements as I'm sure there will be. I do believe that with proper training the risks can be minimized to the point that they are acceptable to most people. Redundancy and backup is the most important thing in any foreign enviroment, diving, aviation ect. While we all wish we had no need for OC bailout, that will probaly remain for a very long time. Fact is mechanical-electronic things break. Had a friend who had a first stage fail at 140'. Possibly a fatal deal if he didnt have a backup. CCR, OC stuff breaks and you better be ready.

[Braunbehrens]

saturated once bubbled...
CCR, OC stuff breaks and you better be ready.

I knew we'd find some common ground ;)

What I don't understand is how a 'breather diver will get out of a scrubber failure. The reason I dive DIR is because I feel that it does make you 'ready'. I truly feel that I have accounted for as many failures as possible. With a 'breather, I just feel that this is not the case. Granted, I don't know all that much about breathers.

I also understand that some dives, as you say, require 'breathers, or the kind of support that is not available, or some other configuration that is either not available or (to me) unsafe. I simply choose not to do these dives. I have no problem with someone else choosing to do them.

[cdiver2]

Hi guys as stated Im just a rec diver but like to read/talk all aspects of diving but, must comment this thread is geting real bad.
Big Jet you sound like one of the two DIR divers in the boat at the beginning. We all dive in one form or another for the love of it not to use as a boxing ring. Dont we live in a society that extol's free speach ?.

[cornfed]

cdiver2 once bubbled...
Hi guys as stated Im just a rec diver but like to read/talk all aspects of diving but, must comment this thread is geting real bad.
Big Jet you sound like one of the two DIR divers in the boat at the beginning.
Actually I thought it was getting better. You just need to filter out the sh*t.



We all dive in one form or another for the love of it not to use as a boxing ring.


PADI has a underwater boxing specialty.



Dont we live in a society that extol's free speach ?.
Yes, and some peope choose to exercise that right by telling people they are stupid. Some do, some don't... refer back to my earlier point about filtering.

Cornfed

[saturated]

What I don't understand is how a 'breather diver will get out of a scrubber failure. The reason I dive DIR is because I feel that it does make you 'ready'. I truly feel that I have accounted for as many failures as possible. With a 'breather, I just feel that this is not the case. Granted, I don't know all that much about breathers.

First off. A scruber failure should not exist if the material is properly packed and replaced at the specified interval. AP valves recommends three hours duration time for a co2 production rate of 1.6 lpm. My co2 production rate is 1.4(under maximum workload), so I'm close and err on the side of the manufacturer.(in truth a typical dive day has me down for a single dive and wet for about 2 hours, so its changed every 2 hours).

Should a failure occur, the symptoms will manifest (in me) as shortness of breath, pounding heart and extreme dizzyness. Dizzyness being advanced. Bear in mind that the symptoms I experience may not be the same for you. (I am not condoning this and def dont do alone). One thing to do is find out your symptoms. What we used to do is have one diver on each arm. and no material in the scrubber. holding onto the wall kick hard. It generally takes about 2-3 mins for symptoms to show.(again dont do this alone, and I am not condoning. Merly a way to experience the symptoms.)

Knowing what the symptoms are and what they feel like for me is very important, for me the shortness of breath appears prior to anything else. And a dilutent flush will clear symptoms up. As you said previously it can be next to impossible to bail with the room spinning. Best solution OC bail out built into the mouthpeice. But a flush will clear it up fast, then you can go to OC.

Example: I was in the bahamas diving a huge ledge off bimini. I got shorntess of breath and all the symptoms, I did a flush and bailed out to my stage(always carry one). On the surface I discovered my scrubber settled on the long ride to the dive site. (60 min Very choppy). 100% diver error.

So to survive a scrubber failure

1.) pack it right and on time so you dont have to worry.

2.) be in tune with your body, and get on OC when symptoms manifest

3.) wait for the new controllers that should have a pco2 monitor from what i've heard (1 & 2 will still apply though)

:)

[padiscubapro]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


I knew we'd find some common ground ;)

What I don't understand is how a 'breather diver will get out of a scrubber failure. The reason I dive DIR is because I feel that it does make you 'ready'. I truly feel that I have accounted for as many failures as possible. With a 'breather, I just feel that this is not the case. Granted, I don't know all that much about breathers.

I also understand that some dives, as you say, require 'breathers, or the kind of support that is not available, or some other configuration that is either not available or (to me) unsafe. I simply choose not to do these dives. I have no problem with someone else choosing to do them.

scrubber failures do happen, but I would say its much more likely that an OC diver will have a first stage failure before a RB diver has a scrubber failure PROVIDING the rules are followed..

Most RB manufacturers test their scrubber duration and as long as you stay withing the tested limits (they are usually VERY conservative) and properly assemble the canister (use chemical that his withing its use by date and stored properly) there should be no cause for concern..

Some designs try and take the poorly filled canister out of the loop so to say, but nothing can correct for someone leaving out a part or not caring for their gear properly..

for example the inspiration rates its scrubber at 180 mins @ 4c and 1.6 lpm co2 production rate (this is very high... I dare you to find ANYONE on earth that can keep up this rate for that long)

the prism I have seen various numbers 4-5hrs depending on the cannister but rated at 1.35 lpm (more realistic but still no one could manage this for that long)

even some older designs were even more cautious in the ratings.. for example the ut-240 (240 mins at 1.8 lpm)

The problem can come in if people start pushing the rated life.. most CCR divers average somewhere around 1.0 lpm of co2 production, scalling this to a "3 hour scrubber @ 1.6lpm) brings the projected bed lif to approx 5 hours... DO I recommend this NO, but its used to show how much padding the scrubber ratings have..

Also the scrubbers work better shallow than they do at depth so the time when the scrubber is most used(chemically), is when you are shallow doing your stops AND usually at rest producing very little CO2.

I have heard a few divers note they had trouble getting off the loop... I had 2 MINOR incidents (both recognized very early). I had no problems flushing the loop, and never had to abandon the loop..

I'm not going to get into detail but both were my fault and training and experienced made it a non issue.... If I had to bail I dont believe I would have had a problem doing it since I had no problems doing a complete loop flush..

MOST rb diver plan all dives with proper bailout but there is a faction thats not mainstream (I liken it to DIR attitudes but exactly opposite).. The aplinest belives you dive with the absolute minimum (that usually is only onboard bailout).. I am dead against this attitude, it almost every case..

If I'm doing a 50 ft reef dive with no deco, the onboard cylinders may be enough, and I may go without it if the situation merits/calls for it.. but on 99.9% of all RB dives I have full independent bailout and preach it..

[cornfed]

saturated once bubbled...

Example: I was in the bahamas diving a huge ledge off bimini. I got shorntess of breath and all the symptoms, I did a flush and bailed out to my stage(always carry one). On the surface I discovered my scrubber settled on the long ride to the dive site. . 100% diver error.


That was my orignial point , a small problem (bumpy ride) had large consiquences (increased risk and aborted dive). It was diver error but the system made this error easier.

Cornfed

[cdiver2]

Hi cornfed I know its geting of the subject but I just had to say I love your sense of humor

[saturated]

That was my orignial point , a small problem (bumpy ride) had large consiquences (increased risk and aborted dive). It was diver error but the system made this error easier.

Actually the system, in which I include my brain. Broke down because of my loss of focus. In even the most basic of training you should be tought to check the scrubber after a long trip. Not that I did'nt know that, I just did'nt do it. That is the type of behavior that causes problems.

This type of incident is why most breather guys take accident reports with a grain of salt. Most of us agree that they are indeed very reliable, otherwise we would'nt dive them; however, we also know that they dont forgive stupidity. As is the case with many things in life.

[BigJetDriver]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


There are jerks everywhere, that's just the way it is. Because DIR can be looked at as a bunch of rules, it attracts some idiots, I'll grant you that. What these people don't realize is the complexity and beauty of the system, and the reasons behind the rules.

Anyway, I just wanted to make sure you knew that most of us are just regular guys, just like Zaphod.

Actually what I wrote was not intended to be a personal attack! I do, in fact, think you are a pretty regular guy. I have, in fact, both quoted some of your other posts and recommended them to other readers as making sense. I have also recommended GUE classes, among others, as having good things to teach.

You must admit, however, that saying things like: "What are you so scared of?", as you did to me, does tend to personalize the issue a wee bit! It did call for a bit more of a personal answer.

So while I won't worry my pretty little head over it, (another recent comment of yours), I will point out that I am not, by any means an unfriendly rebreather diver. I enjoy a full and open flow of information and I like to help other divers. That is one reason I worked so hard to become a DMT, for instance!

So, while this is not personal, I still do not understand one thing. You say you don't like rebreathers, and you don't have one. What exactly IS your agenda here? We do have them. We do like them, and we like to discuss them!

[Braunbehrens]

What I find interesting is that you guys say that scrubber failure should be a non issue, but in the same breath we hear about 3 scrubber failures. In hundreds of OC dives I have never run out of gas and I have never had a 1st or second stage failure. Even though when I first started to dive I went for years without any service on my gear-pure stupidity of course, but a testament to how reliable a plain old OC setup really is.

Anyway, it sounds like you guys are among the more sane rebreather divers...but I still wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole.

[Braunbehrens]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...


So, while this is not personal, I still do not understand one thing. You say you don't like rebreathers, and you don't have one. What exactly IS your agenda here? We do have them. We do like them, and we like to discuss them!

BJD, let's let bygones be bygones, I certainly am not at all interested in making ennemies, I just felt attacked by your post and responded to it.

I too am interested in sharing information, and in the Aristotelian ideal of an "argument". Namely that two people with differing ideas can share them to arrive at a third idea, which is superior to both of the original ones.

I know I come on strong on occasion, but this is simply because I tend to be a little blunt and dispense with some of the "niceties". I simply call it like I see it. I'm sorry if I have somehow offended you by doing so.

Believe it or not some of us don't really have an agenda. We just like to yak about diving. In the process we may pick up something here and there, and help a few people out with some information that may help them.

As I've said, I responded to this thread because I felt that not all DIR divers are jerks, and then the discussion just sort of meandered to where it is now.

I do find the subject of rebreathers interesting, and I do like to discuss them with people who dive them. A dive buddy of mine dives an RB80, although I haven't dived with him since he got it, and I wouldn't dive with him while he's using it. Another local guy that I'm friendly with dives a rb also, I believe it's a dolphin. So you see, I have nothing against people who dive rb's. I simply feel they are unsafe.

To be honest, I find it a little bit demeaning to have to justify my reasons for posting to you, but in the spirity of friendly discussions and reducing any animosity, I have done so.

Can we move on now and talk about diving please?

[saturated]

What I find interesting is that you guys say that scrubber failure should be a non issue

I think the point was missed, scrubber failure is a nonissue unless you make stupid mistakes as we did. I've actually never had a problem on a breather that was not caused by me. ( I have'nt had many over the years) but I believe all problems I've had could be attributed to my failures and not the units.

I think the best way to truly understand a RB is to take a fam course. We can tell you things till were blue in the face but experience will teach you much more. 5 min in the pool is worth 10,000 words.

I do understand the statement about not having any failures on OC and not having gear serviced properly ect. OC is definately more forgiving than ccr,scr. You cant just throw your gear on and get wet. It requires a little discipline to setup properly and do all the predive checks involved. But well worth the trouble and when done correctly, very reliable.


If you wanna get wet OC
If you need to stay wet CCR:D


Anyway, it sounds like you guys are among the more sane rebreather divers...but I still wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole.

I have a 12' pole and a swimming pool.:D

[Braunbehrens]

saturated once bubbled...


I think the point was missed, scrubber failure is a nonissue unless you make stupid mistakes as we did.

OK, but I view this as a fact: We are all idiots sometimes. :D

If you are an idiot on OC with a competent buddy, you'll live. On a rb you'll die.

Well, at least you are more likely to die.

This is really the crux of the argument against breathers. Not that they are inherently flawed, but that they require too much discipline and that eventually people screw up.

It's all well and good to say "I've had problems but they were due to my own mistakes"....dead is still dead.

When I grew up in Germany they taught us to always look both ways, even in a crosswalk. They said that otherwise your tombstone would read "here rests someone who had the right of way".

It was funny, but it got the point accross.

The idea of the breather sounds great, btw, it is very very enticing. Running out of gas is what most people fear most, that, and the bends.

If I ever make it down to your neck of the woods you can put the breather in the pool and hand me that 12 foot pole ... ;)

It'll make for a good story :D

[padiscubapro]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
What I find interesting is that you guys say that scrubber failure should be a non issue, but in the same breath we hear about 3 scrubber failures. In hundreds of OC dives I have never run out of gas and I have never had a 1st or second stage failure. Even though when I first started to dive I went for years without any service on my gear-pure stupidity of course, but a testament to how reliable a plain old OC setup really is.

Anyway, it sounds like you guys are among the more sane rebreather divers...but I still wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole.

My 2 "failures", really weren't true failures(just possible short term problems), I just mention it to bring in training does allow us to deal with issues..

1 "failure" was due to the fact that a did a cell replacement and the bulkhead wasn't tight enough... I had water intrusion into the scrubber (not enough for me to get off the loop) but enough to decrease the scrubber efficiency.. I noticed the symptoms (I was swimming hard), flushed the loop, and ended the dive on the loop.. I just made me aware to take it easy(on my way back and up and to monitor my condition closely) and not push things..

the second "failure" may not have even been a problem.. I just treated it as such to be on the safe side..

I had 2 students with me (one was on OC to a depth deeper than he has ever gone).. I was pre occupied with my students and was probably not breathing correctly (re: shallow), I realized some possible symptoms, flushed the loop and mades sure I was breathing correctly and no symptoms re-appeared.. Its better to treat any questionable situation as a true problem, than become a statistic..

There will be at least one rebreather (in the near future) that will have PCO2 monitoring and several people are talking about adding PCO2 monitors.

I used OC for many years and swore by it, at the beginning I thought RBs were a pain in th a**, but as I got used to it and got the routine down its actually less work overall.. The biggest difference is when doing multiple deco dives, when al the OC people are getting all their gear ready for their next dive, I'm eating lunch, grabbing a drink and just relaxing....

I used to plan oc dives with a typical bottom times of 15 or 20 minutes for deep stuff, now its more like 30 or 40 minutes, and in many cases I'm getting out the same time as the OC divers and I had more bottom time..

Prior to using a RB a 300ft dive would have been basically a bounce... by the time I got there it was time to turn around, now I'll do 20 to 30 minutes.... I wouldn't even considered that on OC... (I don't have the luxury of a chamber to do longer dives).. 3hrs of deco is enough....

I look at CCR RBs this way, a new diver has alot to think about and is probably easier to hurt oneself.. the other end of the spectrum is the seasoned CCR RB diver, who has the experience and knowledge to do the dives he/she is attempting.. If a problem occurs this person has more options than an oc or SCR diver..

I can... run manually if electronics fail
I can.. fly manually as an scr and get ATLEAST a 5 to 1 extension of my gas..
I can bail to OC at depth and do deco on OC
I can bail to OC at depth and return tpo the RB at 6m/20 fsw if the electonics are shot and run it as an O2 rebreather....

If I somehow got entangled or lost... who cares I have lots of time to sort things out.....

another skill that I can do with one of my buddies (This skill requires trust and practice and would only be used in EXTREME circumstances) is Buddy-breathe sharing one rebreather)

It would take some type of catostrophic failure to get me off my loop... That would be somehome cutting my breathing hoses (they have balistic nylon covering them) tearing the lungs at a high point on the loop (again balistic nylon) and my canister is in a titanium shell which I doubt willl get penetrated..

Even scrubber "failure" probably wouldn't get me immediately off my loop, if Its partial breakthrough, running it as an SCR would probably work for a period of time since the gas is being constantly flushed...

[Braunbehrens]

Well, we are never going to agree on rb's being safe...but I also don't do 300ft dives. I feel that with a dive to that depth (and any reasonable bottom time) blowing it means death or paralysis. With a dive to 200 ft or less I feel that even if you blow it moderately you'll have a good chance that you only have pain hits and can ride it out with O2 and/or a chamber.

Again, it's a matter of acceptable risk...we each have to make that decision.

[padiscubapro]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
Well, we are never going to agree on rb's being safe...but I also don't do 300ft dives. I feel that with a dive to that depth (and any reasonable bottom time) blowing it means death or paralysis. With a dive to 200 ft or less I feel that even if you blow it moderately you'll have a good chance that you only have pain hits and can ride it out with O2 and/or a chamber.

Again, it's a matter of acceptable risk...we each have to make that decision.

a 200 ft dive with a short run time you'll probably get out if you have a low He mix, as you increase the He content your judgement gets much better but your tissue loading goes up as well....
from a blown decompression standpoint an Air dive is better(short run times... long run times Heliox is the best), but narcosis is way up there..... so its a matter of balancing this risk for that benefit..

From all the accident reports I have looked at, the outcomes weren't bad with 30 mins or less of blown deco and prompt treatment... anything more than that the outcomes weren't as good and obviously get worse with amount od missed decompression...

[Braunbehrens]

padiscubapro once bubbled...


a 200 ft dive with a short run time you'll probably get out if you have a low He mix, as you increase the He content your judgement gets much better but your tissue loading goes up as well....
from a blown decompression standpoint an Air dive is better(short run times... long run times Heliox is the best), but narcosis is way up there..... so its a matter of balancing this risk for that benefit..

From all the accident reports I have looked at, the outcomes weren't bad with 30 mins or less of blown deco and prompt treatment... anything more than that the outcomes weren't as good and obviously get worse with amount od missed decompression...

THis is the nice thing about deep stops. A big part of your deco is already done, so even if you blow it in the shallows you shouldn't be in too bad a shape.

[caveseeker7]

First let me say I'm glad the bickering and name calling has stopped. Doesn't get anybody anywhere. :(

Somebody (it has become a rather large thread, I don't remember nor do I want to reread it all) said earlier it be nice to have the option of GUE training for CCRs. I rather doubt that will happen for obvious reasons, just as it is unlikely there will be a class for using dive computers. (However, there is GUE OC training. Seriously consider taking that, to apply to your diving as you see fit)

Yet I can't help thinking that they do teach the use of the RB80 SCR. Fairly simple RB, backmounted & protected counterlung, reliable, manual without electronics ... .

Now here some food for thought:
There is a CCR that comes pretty close: Gordon Smith's KISS rebreather.Fairly simple RB, backmounted & protected counterlung, reliable, manual operation. Just imagine throwing out its battery powered O2 monitors and replacing them with a version of Peter Ready's secondary. No batteries, it runs off the current of the sensors, potted with reed switch dial against flooding ... . :rolleyes: ........ :D

[Braunbehrens]

Pez de Diablo once bubbled...


An excellent book to read is Beyond the Deep by Bill Stone and Barbara am Ende. Details exploration in one of the deepest and remotest caves in the world.

And I don't think you will have to read anything about DIR in the book;)

I had read a shorter account of this push before, but the book is worth reading.

Pez, you are right that you don't have to read about DIR. However, you do have to read about Ian Rollands death.

I have heard that Bill Stone also tried to push Wakulla and that there were some fatalities there as well. Does anyone know if there is an account of this exploration?

[caveseeker7]

That was Dr. Henry Kendal, 73, Nobel Prize Winner. :(

http://www.owuscholarship.org/people/bassion/feb.htm

http://www.virginiascuba.com/Docs/SCR/Current%20RBV%20Incident%20Reportd.htm

On pre-WKPP Wakulla exploration check the History Section at
http://www.wkpp.org/ and http://www.usdct.org/

Bill Stone wrote a book about the Wakulla Exploration that was published by NSS-CDS. I'm not sure it's still available.
http://www.cavediver.org/index.html

[Braunbehrens]

caveseeker7 once bubbled...


Bill Stone wrote a book about the Wakulla Exploration that was published by NSS-CDS. I'm not sure it's still available.
http://www.cavediver.org/index.html

If anyone has a copy I'd be interested in reading it. I'd be willing to buy it, borrow it or rent it. Just PM me.