An eye opening experience

[cobaltbabe]

I wanted to share with the members of OFWF something that happened this weekend. I was invited by a member to sit in and observe a class regarding DECO. Now as most of you know, I believe there is alot of theory and logic behind diving and I know we could argue about that for days but I sat in this class room and watched 4 men discussing theories and physics. These men were talking way over my head and alot of it didn't soak in to be honest but I did walk away with a little.

Next we went to the water and as I stayed close to the bottom, I watch in utter aw as these two men came down the line. They hovered and then descended, hovered and descended. The ability involved to perform these skills take years to master. Impressed doesn't even come close to how I felt. Once they had finished their skills they were debriefed and suggestions were made and equipment was tweaked.

I want to tell you guys, if I didn't want to be a wreck diver/tech diver before, I sure as heck want to be one now. I know that I have along way to go. I have skills that need to be worked on over and over again and I need to know what the depths can do to my body and what my body does to protect itself. I want to be so comfortable with my gear that in times of stress it will be second nature and I will be able to be a good dive buddy but be my own best friend instead of my own enemy. I want to be able to at depth to have my reg free flow and the first thing that comes to mind is sh*t this is going to cost me some money.
Again, not everyone is into this and that's cool, but I wanted to thank the people in the class and the instructor for inviting me to share in their training. The dedication and love of their sport is incredible. You can see and hear it in their stories.

I wish them all the best of luck and hope to stay intouch.

Thank you again.

Marie

[MikeFerrara]

cobaltbabe,

You lost me. What skills amazed you? Alternately hovering and descneding? That's something my OW students work on. We do the same on ascent. Control of your position in the water is important at any level. Did I miss something?

[canuckdiver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
You lost me. What skills amazed you? Alternately hovering and descneding? That's something my OW students work on. We do the same on ascent. Control of your position in the water is important at any level. Did I miss something?

I think what Marie is referring to was the fact that these experienced divers were able to hover in the water perfectly horizontal, and maintain position in relation to the downline without having to fin to stay there. These guys had bouyancy and trim down COLD. ;)

Your'e right that bouyancy is something that is important for everybody, but I think that a lot of students come out of basic OW with less than perfect control of bouyancy and trim. Your course may be different, but it is something that I have observed frequently.

[cobaltbabe]

Skills aside, being a new diver and sitting listening to these men talk about the experiences they have had on wreck penetrations and the marine life they have seen is just incredible.

[Jimmy B]

Give the boys over at NTD a call, you all know where they are, Best start you'll ever get.

JB

[cobaltbabe]

I'm sure there good but this kind of skill only comes from years of experience. It's almost graceful. I could have sat there for hours watching them.

[knives]

It is actually not years of experience , but the correct training with someone like Dan MacKay and time in the water making dive after dive after dive . I too was amazed when i saw what these guys could do ...every time I dive with them I am still fascinated ....

:) ;)

[cobaltbabe]

The men I was watching looked like they had been diving together for years, and they may have, all I know is that as a newbie, I was very impressed with first off, the level of skill these people displayed and the knowledge they had about their sport.

[Kevin R]

You're absolutely right, these skills do take years of intense diving to master. Unless, of course, you find an agency or instructor who is able to teach the skills properly from the beginning. Get some perspective on yor awe and go for a dive off Kingston with some of the DIR-F grads, or if you really want to be amazed, dive off a boat with sisters J and R who truely exemplify what a good dive team looks like. It really doesn't take that long with the right training, it's just that most instructors aren't teaching it right.

One of the guys I dive with has 2 years experience, 50 dives total, his PADI OW, PDIC nitrox and most important, the DIR-F course and he can do all of those things.

Kevin

[sparky30]

I don't think that's a skill that takes years to learn... It should come pretty quickly with a bit of practice.. hovering motionless next ot a line is not that tough.. when properly weighed and with properly rigged gear its no big deal... I am not a tech diver by any means, but I think bouyancy is a skill every diver should have.
As for doing it perfectly horizontal, keep in mind that most tech divers dive with a backplate and wings.. I dive a TransPac (also with wings) and staying perfectly horizontal is easy.. The design of the BC makes it almost automatic.
If you have a visual reference (like a line, wall, whatever..) its a little easier.. if you really want a challange, try doing it with out a visual reference (imagine you are in a silt cloud in a confined space and can't see anything.. ascending or descending is not an option). All divers should have half descent bouyancy control.. I was down south in the spring and I saw a few people plow feet first into the sand.. not a good way to dive (or stop a descent). We did wall dives at the continental shelf.. The bottom is at 5000ft.. bouyancy control is imperative if you don't want to overshoot your target depth. Its not hard, or amazing.. like any skill it just takes practice. I've been diving for less than a year.. just under 80 dives total..if I can do it anybody can.. I'm the most uncoordinated person I know :) I can fall up the stairs..

[cobaltbabe]

You know that I haven't been diving for very long but the times that I have managed to obtain neutral bouyancy it was completely by fluke and I didn't know I was doing it. I have never tried a back plate so I don't know about that either. I guess in time I will find out. :)

[mglasspo]

I wish I had a bit better buoyancy control. I think mine is decent, but by no means good. I can hold me depth, unaided at my 3 minute safety stop with my depth guage, but I have to kick a bit. I know on my last set of dives I was over-weighted, so I'm trying to perfect my weighting, I think I could still use to drop a pound or two. Anybody have any tips on better buoyancy control? The gear I have is jacket style BC and standard weight belt.

Thanks!

Mike

[MikeFerrara]

Staying horizantal makes it much easier.

[mglasspo]

It seems to me that when I try to stay horizontal, my feet like to drop down (no, I don't use ankle weights) without kicking. Any way to avoid this?

[scubasean]

mglasspo once bubbled...
It seems to me that when I try to stay horizontal, my feet like to drop down (no, I don't use ankle weights) without kicking. Any way to avoid this?

Perhaps you have some flexibility as to where your tank or weight belt are positioned?

Move your tank up an inch, or move your weight belt up an inch....

Please try one at a time...

Good luck!

[divebuddydale]

scubasean once bubbled...


Perhaps you have some flexibility as to where your tank or weight belt are positioned?

Move your tank up an inch, or move your weight belt up an inch....

Please try one at a time...

Good luck!

If you are in any current, you can also adjust your trim by the position of your feet. If your fin tips are pointed down, your feet will sink, if your toes are pointed out (away from your head) your trim will remain relatively stable. All this is assuming your are horizontal to the surface, and you are facing the current, however it is pretty much the same facing away from the current, you just do not remain stationary because the current takes you , facing the current you have to kick lightlt to remain stationary.

Dale

[mglasspo]

I'll move my tank up a bit Sunday. Hopefully the valve won't crack me in the scull :)

[MikeFerrara]

mglasspo once bubbled...
It seems to me that when I try to stay horizontal, my feet like to drop down (no, I don't use ankle weights) without kicking. Any way to avoid this?

Aside from good body position experiment with tank and weight positioning. Of course don't be overweighted.

I and others have written on this lots but...when you descend and your wet suit compresses you add air to your wing/bc right? Your air bladder is higher on your body than you weights in your pouches or on your belt. Now, what do you have? The bc trying to lift your upper body and your weight belt or pouches trying to sink your lower half. the goal is to get these aposing forces as close as possible to being in the same place. Of course it may not be easy to get it perfect. You can compensate for some difference with boddy position.

If you are "foot heavy/head high" it makes buoyancy control difficult because in order to move foreward without ascending you must be negatively buoyant. Now when you stop kicking you sink. A head down trim causes the oposit. As you change speed you also change effective buoyany. If you are horizontal and neutral, changing speed will have no effect on vertical position. also being horizontal provides the most resistance to movement in the vertical direction and therefor makes control easier.

[sparky30]

cobaltbabe once bubbled...
You know that I haven't been diving for very long but the times that I have managed to obtain neutral bouyancy it was completely by fluke and I didn't know I was doing it. I have never tried a back plate so I don't know about that either. I guess in time I will find out. :)
I wouldn't worry about it.. Practice makes perfect. You are probably over weighted. When I started diving I carried too much weight too. As I got better I trimmed it back.. It also makes a difference where you position your weights.. to high or too low will have an impact.. It was a bit of trial and error for me.. You work your BC slowly.. Once you're neutral you can maintain your position within a foot by changing your breathing a bit.. you go up a little when you inhale and down a little when you exhale..
Here's a neat excersice you can try in a pool.. Try hovering 30 cm above the bottom without finning or touching anything.. Eventually you can move around (use a frog kick) just above the floor without touhing anything.. When you can do that, try it in a quarry and practice until you can do it without stirring up silt.. It just takes practice..

[cobaltbabe]

Right now I am using a backinflator and have 20 lbs integrated. I also carry a ditchable 6 lbs around my waist. That's it. I think it's just practice like you suggested.

[mglasspo]

Hmm.. I hadn't thought of how the weights were in relation to the bladder.. I'll give it a try. I'm doing some easy dives on the weekend, so I'll take some time to play with the weights then. Hopefully I'll be able to drop 4 more pounds.

[Doppler]

cobaltbabe once bubbled...
The men I was watching looked like they had been diving together for years, and they may have, all I know is that as a newbie, I was very impressed with first off, the level of skill these people displayed and the knowledge they had about their sport.

I think one of the points that Cobalt is trying to make here is that sitting in on a "technical class" and watching the required skills dive changed her perspective. I think what she's saying is: "there's a bit more to this than I thought."

Since it was one of my classes she was observing, I also feel it's only fair to let her and you know that the two students I had in the water doing basic techniques -- buoyancy, gas sharing, equipment management, et al -- failed. They were close but have to do it all again a little more slickly before they get their deco cards. :)

Nice to hear it looked impressive though... I had to leave my video camera at home that weekend so my wife could shoot video of my eldest step-daughter joining the armed forces!!

[Groundhog246]

cobaltbabe once bubbled...
Right now I am using a backinflator and have 20 lbs integrated. I also carry a ditchable 6 lbs around my waist. That's it. I think it's just practice like you suggested.

Which model? I dive a Sherwood Outback and 28lbs (3 in each trim pocket, the rest in the ditchable pouches) in full 7mm suit with hooded vest (I weigh about 160lbs) or 20lbs without the vest. My wife dives an back inflate, US divers, Alcyone and needs 26lbs in nearly identical suit (she's my height and about 140lbs). We've done a couple of dives with Boogie711, who's diving a backplate and wing and except for the plate (which is an available option for my Outback) there's little difference in the setups. I'd suspect my trim weights provide about the same wieght in the same place as his backplate relative to the bladder and tank.

If you're finding yourself, head or foot heavy and moving the tank within the limits allowed isn't enough, consider tank weights. You can use the small square ankle weights and put them on the tank, moving them around to get the correct balance. I've dove with a couple of buddies who use em. It's a lot easier to put 1.5 lbs near the top of your tank, than trying to get your weight belt to sit an inch higher and stay there, than where it wants to sit.

Aside from that it's practice, practice, practice. An experienced buddy can often help, I had several who offered tips on body position, etc. The more relaxed you are, the easier it gets. Add and remove air from your BC in very small amounts and wait to see what results. It takes several seconds for the change to be felt.

My observation has been, that most newer divers are "uncomfortable" when they get neutral. It's not a "natural" feeling, so they tend to stay slightly negative and then flap their hands around to prevent their descent. For myself, I spent a lot of time working on it at 14 to 16 feet, because it's more difficult there. Among the "drills" was assuming a sitting "yoga" position, with legs crossed and hovering a few inches above a pool bottom or platform.

[cobaltbabe]

Doppler once bubbled...


I think one of the points that Cobalt is trying to make here is that sitting in on a "technical class" and watching the required skills dive changed her perspective. I think what she's saying is: "there's a bit more to this than I thought."



Your right Doppler. I did think that it would be alot easier then it is. I had set unrealistic goals for myself and now know that I have along time to go before I get to that standard of diving. However, I still have my goal set on being a tech diver. I will put in the time and do my homework and dive like a crazy woman (well maybe not crazy) and I am going to ask questions till you tell me to bugger off. So for now I will try to perfect my bouyancy and trim and get as many dives and courses in that I can handle and some day I hope to reach my goal.

[taz22]

Groundhog246 once bubbled...


I dive a Sherwood Outback and 28lbs (3 in each trim pocket, the rest in the ditchable pouches) in full 7mm suit with hooded vest (I weigh about 160lbs) or 20lbs without the vest. My wife dives an back inflate, US divers, Alcyone and needs 26lbs in nearly identical suit (she's my height and about 140lbs). We've done a couple of dives with Boogie711, who's diving a backplate and wing and except for the plate (which is an available option for my Outback) there's little difference in the setups. I'd suspect my trim weights provide about the same wieght in the same place as his backplate relative to the bladder and tank.



What type of tank were you diving with Groundhog?

I love my Posedion BC, it has the 2 ditchable pockets ( 4lbs each)and numerous trim pockets(2 or 3 lbs each) that allow you to properly weight yourself. Diving right now in a 7mm with 3mm hooded vest, 80 al tank ( steel super 80 is on order ). I wear 22lbs and weight umm.....205lbs.

[bwerb]

Groundhog246 once bubbled...

Among the "drills" was assuming a sitting "yoga" position, with legs crossed and hovering a few inches above a pool bottom or platform.

Just curious...how does practice assuming this body position relate to diving and buoyancy/trim control? It sounds like a fun game and all but I'm having a hard time understanding how being able to hover like this would help stop the "feet down, hand sculling, overweighted" diver achieve mastery of horizontal trim.

[cobaltbabe]

I thought I was doing pretty well not sculling until I was told by one of my DP's that I was. I try to keep my hands tucked in between my tank and my back but obviously it isn't working. :(

[Groundhog246]

bwerb once bubbled...


Just curious...how does practice assuming this body position relate to diving and buoyancy/trim control? It sounds like a fun game and all but I'm having a hard time understanding how being able to hover like this would help stop the "feet down, hand sculling, overweighted" diver achieve mastery of horizontal trim.

Not sure how it helps. I found when I was new, that doing this, as I was in an upright position seemed more natural than lying horizontal. If anything, I think it's more difficult to remain neutral and in place (you can't "cheat" and kick your feet) in the "yoga" position (feet tuck under, arms crossed in front), than horizontal. Once I got fairly good at that, getting neutral in a normal horizontal dive position was fairly easy (20 OW and anoth 8 to 10 pool dives after certification).

From myself and watching assisting others, BC fit and adjustment is absolutely critical. If your BC is a poor fit and shifts around, you'll never stay in trim. It's amazing how many slip on a BC, rental or their own), with the shoulder straps fully extended and never snug em up or have BC's that are just a bad fit.

Taz: My vest is 7mm worn over the top, not under, except for the 3mm face seal on the hood. I mostly dive with AL80's, although I've 2 LP72 steel that I use on occasion. I tried 26lbs on a quarry dive early in the season. I could descend at the start, but when the tank got to 1000PSI, I couldn't get neutral (certainly couldn't get negative) on the platform at 12 feet, which means I'd be scr*wed trying to do a safety stop.
Since an ST72 with a 2250+ hydro needs the 10% over to be a 72, I consider them a 65 and only use em for a shallow dive or to get a third, short dive in when we've used all 4 80's. Our 14 year old is working on his card. Has one more OW dive (got chilled on the weekend and called one dive, so has to make it up). Being smaller (skinny), he'll probably get as much time on a 72 (65) as we will on the 80's, so it should work well. He had AL63's on the OW weekend and his pressures were in line with the adults with AL80's. He'll be wearing a belt (I am not buying a weight integrated BC for a growing child) so the steels should reduce the belt load a little too.

[Doppler]

mglasspo once bubbled...
Hmm.. I hadn't thought of how the weights were in relation to the bladder.. I'll give it a try. I'm doing some easy dives on the weekend, so I'll take some time to play with the weights then. Hopefully I'll be able to drop 4 more pounds.

I don't know if this diagram will help illustrate the balance "thing." It's slightly out of context... the lift of the bladder and "pull" of the weights is not illustrated here... previous panel!:0

http://www.techdiver.com/diver.nsf/balanced_diver.gif

But I would stongly suggest that you aim to get horizontal (practice by laying on the floor with your hands in front of you and your knees bent) that's what it's gonna feel like... well, sort of. Now you have to shift weights to be as close to the fulcrum point as practical

Doppler

[Doppler]

cobaltbabe once bubbled...
I thought I was doing pretty well not sculling until I was told by one of my DP's that I was. I try to keep my hands tucked in between my tank and my back but obviously it isn't working. :(

Movement in the hands and feet is usually a sign of being negatively buoyant or at least out of harmony (unbalanced).

Remember: Quiet Feet and Quiet Hands... grasshopper

[cobaltbabe]

Doppler once bubbled...


Remember: Quiet Feet and Quiet Hands... grasshopper

So less weight will help then?

[bwerb]

Groundhog246 once bubbled...


Not sure how it helps. I found when I was new, that doing this, as I was in an upright position seemed more natural than lying horizontal.

Thanks for responding so quickly...this was what I had hoped you would answer...

One of the things which was really nailed home to me recently is that part of learning to dive with good trim is having your bodies "0" or "natural relaxed...hit reset and here's where you find yourself" dive position being horizontal. We are land dwellers and used to an upright posture (well...most of us;) ) When we first hit the water and things start happening our natural reflex is to reassume a vertical upright posture, this is what we are used to doing and it "feels right." This is reinforced in early dive training by doing drills etc. while kneeling in an upright posture on the bottom...again...setting the "0" to vertical.

In the water, what works great on land must be forgotten and we must set a new "natural" position which is best for the environment. It's kinda cool actually...in a "skydivers" horizontal position you offer the maximum resitance to the water to both upward and downward movement. It is much easier to control your buoyancy with this large surface area than having your feet pointing downward offering yourself as an arrow with little resistance to upward or downward movement.

That isn't to say that your dive should be always board flat trim...move around in the water as needed, just think about the advantages of resetting the zero to horizontal and how to make it the natural position you assume when diving.

Oh...about the hands...I like clasping them together and using them as a counterweight. I can push them forward or pull them back to change my trim...also moving your head up and down can affect your trim, as can moving your feet forward and back. I also find that holding my hands together keeps me remembering to not hand scull as much...I'm totally a work in progress here, these are just some of the things I have been doing lately.

[MikeFerrara]

Well said bwerb.

[Groundhog246]

cobaltbabe once bubbled...

So less weight will help then?

Less weight (lead) means less air to offset it at depth. If you've got 2 lbs more lead than you need, then you need enough air in your BC to balance it. When you descend you need to add more air, since the air in the BC (and your suit) is being compressed. The more weight you carry, the greater the amount of air you must add. When you ascend that air will start to expand and you must release it.

Now, I'm going to suggest that 1 lb of lead needs 1/8 cubic foot of air to balance it. So resting on the surface you need 1/8 cubic foot of air in your BC to overcome the negative effect of that pound of lead. When you descend you let some air out of your BC. If your 1 pound overweight you'll leave that 1/8cf in your BC or you'll descend too quickly. If you want to stop at 33 ffw you need to add another 1/8cf of air (so 1/4cf of air at 1ATM) to overcome the extra 1 ATM of water pressure (Boyles Law). If you vary a bit in depth that 1/8cf of displacment is going to vary in size much more rapidly than your suit compression and thus you'll need to add/remove air. If you're 2 pounds overweighted, then the effect is twice as bad (you need to add/remove twice the volume of air). If you're 4 pounds over, then you're really adding and releasing substantial volumes of air, with even minor changes in depth (especially at shallower depths) and you get way beyond what you can compensate for with your breathing. Thus getting your ballast optimized will make buoyancy control much easier.

[cobaltbabe]

My head is hurting!!! :) I understand the concept but finding the correct weight is what is going to take some time. I have dropped some weight already and that felt right at the time but now I am trying to decide what to drop so I still have some ditchable weights as well as the integrated. I don't want to pop to the surface like a cork.

[Groundhog246]

cobaltbabe once bubbled...
My head is hurting!!! :) I understand the concept but finding the correct weight is what is going to take some time. I have dropped some weight already and that felt right at the time but now I am trying to decide what to drop so I still have some ditchable weights as well as the integrated. I don't want to pop to the surface like a cork.

Can you not ditch the integrated weights in your BC? Or do you mean you'd like to be able to ditch a small amount, rather than say half what you've got.

What worked for me was putting what I was pretty sure was less weight than would work in my BC and a bunch of small weights in the front pocket. I dove to a platform at 12 feet, with an AL80 at 1500PSI. Sat beside an accessable handhold, dumped all the air from my BC. I then carefully removed a 2lb weight from my pocket and set it on the platform. Then another. When I set down the third I was positively buoyant, so I picked it up and put it back in my pocket. I then swam around a bit till I used the tank to a little under 1000PSI. Still able to get neutral. And that's the weight I;ve been diving that combo with since. If I take the (Looking at White's site, the call it a sleeveless hooded jacket) hooded vest off, I use 20 pounds total. Still the 6lbs in the trim pockets which are just below shoulder level. I use soft weights (bags of shot) and I've a couple of 1 lb, and several each of 2, 3 & 5 lb and 2 8lb weights. They're expecially great around the boat, they don't slide around like solid lead and they don't damage the gelcoat (or toes) if you drop one.
Don't forget, you AL tank will become more buoyant as you use air. If you're barely negative with a full tank, you will be positive at 1000PSI.

[Doppler]

cobaltbabe once bubbled...


So less weight will help then?

Take a look at the diagram I posted a link to... less weight will mean you have to put less gas in your BC to acheive harmony. However, read what's been posted about getting weighting right with an almost emptry tank... you are looking for a perfect balance... it's not hard. You just need help. And patience.

[cobaltbabe]

Well I have 2 soft weights of 5 lbs each in pocket and 2 3lbs weights on a weight belt. I don't want to loose the weight belt incase I have to ditch the weights but I'm not sure if taking 10 pounds out of the BC would work either. I'm not all that big and I am only carrying one tank and it's not steel. I think it's just a matter of trying different weight configurations to get the one that is best for me.

[cobaltbabe]

I did look at the diagrams and they will help. I think I am over loading a little trying to get everything correct and over compensating alot. I need to relax. I am however going over all suggestions and reading them over and over again. I will nail it one of these days soon. Thank you everyone. :)

[Groundhog246]

cobaltbabe once bubbled...
Well I have 2 soft weights of 5 lbs each in pocket and 2 3lbs weights on a weight belt. I don't want to loose the weight belt incase I have to ditch the weights but I'm not sure if taking 10 pounds out of the BC would work either. I'm not all that big and I am only carrying one tank and it's not steel. I think it's just a matter of trying different weight configurations to get the one that is best for me.

I've spent some time trying to figure out a scenario that would require me to ditch my weights. I've never really come up with one. I suppose if my BC sprang a leak (maybe the inflator hose came off?). If I'm at 30 feet, my suits not too compressed so even with no air in my BC, I'm not too negative, I'd try to swim up without dumping weight. At 60 feet, I'd be quite a bit negative. Next dive to 60 feet (or close to it) look around at how much air other divers have in their BC's (best on a wing or back inflate, won't work if their using their drysuit for buoyancy). Quite a bit. Not sure that 6 lbs would be enough to get you positive. Maybe enough to swim up, and you're still going to be getting quite a rapid ascent as you pass 30 to 20 feet. I've basically decided that dumping weight is likely to be hazardous at best and body recovery at worst (they won't have to dive and search to find you). Thus the majority of weight is on 2 removable pockets (11lbs each). If I can't swim up I'll dump one, if I still can't ascend I'll dump the other.

If it's really that big a concern, I'd suggest you consider packing a lift bag. A 25lb lift bag is not all that big when rolled up, should give you enough lift if your BC failed. You could use it to lift a buddy if his/her BC failed. Get a good one with a long cord on the exhaust valve and you should be able to manage a reasonably controlled emergency ascent.

[cobaltbabe]

I could be wrong but in theory (for lack of a better word) is it not better to ditch 6 pounds off your belt if you need to make an emergency accent then to have to ditch some from your BC. It would be a slower accent most definitely. And although the scenerio may never present itself is it not better to be prepared for the unknown then to go in thinking this could never happen. I'm not talking about over equiping myself by any means but if your kit configuration is set up for almost any scenerio and your still able to manage it, should you not prepare that way?

[Doppler]

cobaltbabe once bubbled...
I could be wrong but in theory (for lack of a better word) is it not better to ditch 6 pounds off your belt if you need to make an emergency accent then to have to ditch some from your BC. It would be a slower accent most definitely. And although the scenerio may never present itself is it not better to be prepared for the unknown then to go in thinking this could never happen. I'm not talking about over equiping myself by any means but if your kit configuration is set up for almost any scenerio and your still able to manage it, should you not prepare that way?

I am biting my tongue here... any of you folks who still teach openwater wanna field this one... Mike! Help me out here.

Damn.

Cobalt... if you are correctly weighted, trained -- and equipped -- ditching weights and emergency ascents are not an issue. Well, not the issue that you learned in your classroom. You need a little more experience, but basically, dropping weights and the ballistic ascents that result are simply not things you want to start planning gear configurations around.

OK have I gone too far?

[cobaltbabe]

I'm asking questions because I don't know and would rather make an educated decision then go in doing something stupid. You don't have to worry about hurting my feelings at all. I have a great deal of respect of everyones opinions on the board (OK well most opinions on the board). I know I have alot more experience to get and the more input the better. Let me have it Doppler or anyone else as far as that goes. I'm a big girl and can handle it. :)

[taz22]

Sounds like you making out just fine.

BTW, what is the lift capacity of your bc? I think you'll find that having to dump weights probably is not an issue.

Cheers!


cobaltbabe once bubbled...
I'm asking questions because I don't know and would rather make an educated decision then go in doing something stupid. You don't have to worry about hurting my feelings at all. I have a great deal of respect of everyones opinions on the board (OK well most opinions on the board). I know I have alot more experience to get and the more input the better. Let me have it Doppler or anyone else as far as that goes. I'm a big girl and can handle it. :)

[cobaltbabe]

I believe it has 35lbs of lift. Zeagle tech.

[knives]

hI
cobaltbabe,
I started with 26lbs of weight and after a bit of diving and struggling with bouyancy, I hooked up with some folks who helped me out, after 2 days they had me down to 16lbs. and on my way to controlled bouyancy and trim. I work on it every dive ...but the improvement has been drastic and my diving has changed from a struggle to (i know this sounds corny) to being one with the water , I am not good with words , but i hope you get what I mean ...anytime you are in kingston, let me know , I am usually around and ready to do a shore dive to practise my skills....
:)

[mglasspo]

That actually really helps, I'll see how I can adjust my rig this weekend, ride the tank a little higher on my back.

Cheers,

Mike

[cobaltbabe]

I guess you can tell I'm eager and have a thirst for knowledge. I appreciate your experiences and would love to hit the water when I am up in your neck of the woods.

By the way there is nothing wrong with being one with the water. I feel at home there too!

Thank you.

[mglasspo]

Ok, let me try out my physics for a second.. *goes into deep trance*

Lets say I have to have 24lbs of weight to be neutral on the surface. I dive down to say, 60 ft. I have to add air to my BC to remain neutral.

Now here comes the dumb question. If I ditch my belt in an emergency and do an emergency swimming ascent, I believe that I will likely ascend too fast for liking, is this correct? I risk forming microbubbles in my bloodstream and my computer is going to wail at me ;) I shouldn't worry too much about an air embolism as long as I keep breathing properly.

Have I gotten all this correct. My main question is, is it dangerous to ditch all your weights? Will the ascent be too quick?

[cobaltbabe]

:huh:

Never a dumb question. I would suspect from what I have been reading that you shouldn't ditch your weights. I'm sure someone will have an opinion.

[mglasspo]

That is what I suspect the answer will be, which is totally different to what is taught on OW and AOW courses. People are taught to ditch their weights. I'm going to hazard a guess here.. I hope I'm not too far off the mark.

a) most divers are overweighted.
b) a properly weighted diver is neutral at any depth by using small amounts of air in their BC to compensate for compression.
c) a properly weighted diver who needs to do an emergency swimming ascent doesn't need to ditch weights because it is easy for them to swim up and they will actually need to dump air from their BC as the ascend to stop it from being an uncontrolled ascent. This is because they are properly weighted to be neutral at any depth. I would also guess that no diver EVER wants to weights to do the work. I.e you shouldn't be dragged to the bottom with your weights, you should swim. You shouldn't be pulled up by your BC, you should swim.

Am I on the mark tonight guys? ;)

[mcrae]

Had to wait till my kids let me have the computer so am a little late on this thread, but looks like everyone else has left so I will try an answer.

First you don't need to be neutral on the surface. You would like to be neutral at about 15-18ft with about 5-800 psi left in your tank and no air in your BC.

Then you only need enough bouancy from your BC to lift the full tank of air at the start of you dive. If you are diving an AL80 it will be about 6 lbs. ( about 1 lbs per 10 cu ft ) Not really a lot.

If you are properly weighted, and a the start of your dive, your BC gets a big hole in the top of it and you are diving wet so no reserve, you should be able to swim up with 6 lbs negative.

Also don't forget you have a buddy who, with a little luck, notices you are kicking like mad and sees that your eyes are as big as saucers :)

She will have lots of reserve bouancy to help you out because she is properly weighted too!

Dropping you weight belt should not be needed.


Have fun
Gary

[Groundhog246]

mglasspo once bubbled...

Have I gotten all this correct. My main question is, is it dangerous to ditch all your weights? Will the ascent be too quick?

By George I think he's got it. Everything I've learned during and since OW (disclaimer, not that long ago) says YES, it's dangerous to drop your weights at depth. As soon as you drop enough to be positive with no air in your BC, you have absolutely no control over what happens next. Having just sat through some of my sons OW class, the time (and reason) to drop weights is AFTER you've surfaced so you can remain there, NOT at depth. You've just made an ESA from 50 feet, while negatively buoyant, how long can you tread water that way? So drop the weights. Dropping your weight belt at depth, probably means they won't have to dive to recover your body. :(

Cobaltbabe: The only "dumb" questions are the ones left unasked.

[SneakyB'tard]

The only "dumb" questions are the ones left unasked.

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions?

Not in reference to Cobalt....just a quote I like to use.

I agree with everyone, Never drop your weight. I have seen Instructors drop extra weight on some OW1-4 dives when their students couldn't get down....but, if they would try to relax the students(which I know is hard) their lungs would stop acting like a Mae West and let them decend.

[mglasspo]

What everyone is saying makes sense. They should teach this more on open water courses. On the surface, it makes sense to dump weights if you're in trouble, at the bottom, it only makes sense to dump weights if you've got too many to be neutral, and then you dump only the ones you need to become neutral. Not that anybody should dive with any more weight than they need to be neutral.. something I'm working on now.

[sparky30]

I was under the impression that ditching weights is a last resort to get bouyant.. So basically you would be in *grave* danger and then decided as a last ditch attempt to loose your weights.. Under those cirumstances, the ascend would probably be too fast.. If I had a choice between guaranteed death and risking a faster than normal ascent I'd take my chances with the ascent anytime.. While you would be more bouyant, you could also flare/spread out, dump all the air from your BC/drysuit/whatever...
I spread my weights out in different pockets.. Some one a weight belt, some integrated.. that way I don't have to drop it all at the same time..Not very DIR, but it works for me.. just make sure your buddy is aware of the different release mechanisms..


mglasspo once bubbled...
Ok, let me try out my physics for a second.. *goes into deep trance*

Lets say I have to have 24lbs of weight to be neutral on the surface. I dive down to say, 60 ft. I have to add air to my BC to remain neutral.

Now here comes the dumb question. If I ditch my belt in an emergency and do an emergency swimming ascent, I believe that I will likely ascend too fast for liking, is this correct? I risk forming microbubbles in my bloodstream and my computer is going to wail at me ;) I shouldn't worry too much about an air embolism as long as I keep breathing properly.

Have I gotten all this correct. My main question is, is it dangerous to ditch all your weights? Will the ascent be too quick?

[Groundhog246]

SneakyB'tard once bubbled...

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions?

Apparently smart enough to ask! :D Just because they're stupid, don't know, can't remember or just totally confused and the question itself makes no sense to the listener, doesn't make it a stupid question. It still means they don't know/understand and might mean they're really really stupid. That said, they're still smart enough to ask.

Really really stupid, is not knowing the answer, not asking the question (too embarrassed because you should know?), then screwing up and injuring or killing yourself or someone else.

[cobaltbabe]

I didn't say asking questions was dumb. I meant there was never a dumb question. I'm was tired and it was a long day so stop picking on me. :out: I am going to try diving this weekend without my weight belt. That will take me to 20lbs and see what happens but I know now not to ditch or plan to ditch weight. Thank you very much and I do appreciate all the suggestions. Mucho thanks.

[Butch103]

....is "Best to ask a "stupid" question than to make a "stupid" mistake."......

Something I believe in very strongly.

[MikeFerrara]

mglasspo once bubbled...
What everyone is saying makes sense. They should teach this more on open water courses. On the surface, it makes sense to dump weights if you're in trouble, at the bottom, it only makes sense to dump weights if you've got too many to be neutral, and then you dump only the ones you need to become neutral. Not that anybody should dive with any more weight than they need to be neutral.. something I'm working on now.

Yes they should. I do and I can't understand why somebody wouldn't.

At depth you only dump what you need to in order to be able to reach the surface. In a recreational rig that should be little if anything.

[SneakyB'tard]

Example of stupid question..

" yes, but why male models?"

Zoolander

a quote from a movie nobody here probably saw.