Air 2 good/bad ??? [Archive]

jonnythan

June 18th, 2003, 01:39 PM

Scenario:

You're at 90 feet and your buddy goes OOA.

Outcome with Air2:

You hand your buddy your primary regulator, on a hose so short your buddy can't even see your face when breathing from it, and you go to your Air2. Assuming the quick disconnect doesn't come undone when you grab at the thing and bring it to your face, you breathe from it. You start ascending when you realize you have to vent gas from your BC, so you use the pull dump and start yanking on the hose to your only air source. All this while your buddy is basically side to side with you facing *backwards*.

Outcome with long hose and bungied backup:

You hand your primary regulator to your buddy, who can stay comfortably a few feet away. You put your bungied backup in your mouth and breathe a real regulator just like the one you just had, and you start a completely normal ascent procedure. You don't have to worry about yanking on your *only* air source, venting the BC with your breathing gas, wondering if the connector designed to quickly disconnect is going to disconnect, or having your buddy's head banging into yours because it's right next to you.

What advantages does the Air2 really give?

kelpmermaid

June 18th, 2003, 01:44 PM

or its Zeagle equivalent, and I never had any problems with it freeflowing or sticking. I liked the idea of being more streamlined. I have gone back to a regular octopus, though, because of an experience I had last year. I was aborting a dive due to a drysuit flood and on the way up the mooring line, I encountered an almost OOA diver - not anyone from our boat, but a complete stranger. Instead of doing the predictable thing (taking my primary,) he took the Air 2. Eventually, we did swap and made our ascent. Prior to that, I had always thought about it in terms of "my buddy" or the others I dive with who know my gear. I never considered what a stranger under pressure (pun intended) might do. I decided then that the air source and the inflator should be separate.

MikeS

June 18th, 2003, 01:44 PM

I think they are a bad idea. In an OOA situation, they add task loading to breathing while dumping air during an ascent; do you keep it in your mouth to breath or over your head to dump air?

Before getting one, I suggest that you try the following. Simulate an OOA situation where you must swim 100 feet laterally and then make a controlled ascent with a safety stop, while donating air to your buddy. This is a realistic scenario for boat diving where you want to come back up on the anchor line. In addition, float a surface marker to ascend on while sharing air. Do this with an Air 2, a traditional octopus, and a long hose with a bungeed backup. Compare the difference, and then decide which is right for you.

I’ve practiced all three (in training only). IMO a long hose with a bungeed backup is by far the superior approach. It allows both divers to independently control their buoyancy while sharing air, swimming laterally or ascending. It also gives you enough room to float a surface marker. Second choice would be a standard octopus configuration. I would only dive an Air2 in an emergency.

Mike

kevink

June 18th, 2003, 01:48 PM

There is a quicker way to remove one of the hoses from a 4 hose reg - -

Take a large pair of shears and cut off your Octopus line, Be sure to duct tape over the hose end that is left. This method is about equally as safe as carrying an Air2 underwater.

I am a big Scubapro Fan (MK2+/R190 and Mk25/G500 regs) but don't fool yourself into thinking an Air2 is a decent alternative to an octopus. If you exclusively dive in blue water 30' or shallower, go ahead and get an Air2 otherwise heed most of the posts on this board.

double125's

June 18th, 2003, 01:56 PM

I prefer the 7 ft hose with a back up on a necklace but that is not practicle for most recreational divers. As far as the air 2 goes I dont like them just because they make a simple task more complex. When you breath the air 2 it makes it difficult to deflate on ascent as well as adding to the confusion. When you cant move freely because that thing has got your head all twisted because the hose is not long enough it will start to induce panic. I think people buy them just to fool themselves into thinking the have a backup not expecting to ever need it in a real world situation.

Walter

June 18th, 2003, 02:00 PM

Jon,

I have rescued many OOA victims while using an Air II. The situation you describe is not at all accurate.

When someone is out of air, they will sometimes signal this too you, but often they simply grab your regulator right out of your mouth.

With an Air II, you simply put it in your mouth with your left hand while taking a firm grip on the OOA diver with your right. The quick disconnect is not in danger of disconnecting. After securing your Air II, you then take a firm grip on the OOA diver with your left hand and make eye contact. You dump air as necessary with the pull cord on the right side of the BC. If you don't have a pull cord on the right side, you might reconsider your BC choice.

After the OOA diver has calmed, you exchange OK signals and ascend slowly and calmly. It is important to remain close to the OOA diver, maintain eye contact and keep a firm grip on his BC to help prevent panic and to control his ascent in the event of panic.

With a long hose, you will need to duck your head to get it out of the way as well as pick up your bungied octopus. Other than that, it's a good idea to continue exactly as I described above.

There are exceptions, but most divers are poorly trained and are likely to panic when OOA. I want them close. A long hose in this situation will be in the way. OTOH, if caving, you'd be nuts not to have a long hose.

jonnythan

June 18th, 2003, 02:07 PM

Walter once bubbled...
Jon,

I have rescued many OOA victims while using an Air II. The situation you describe is not at all accurate.

When someone is out of air, they will sometimes signal this too you, but often they simply grab your regulator right out of your mouth.

With an Air II, you simply put it in your mouth with your left hand while taking a firm grip on the OOA diver with your right. The quick disconnect is not in danger of disconnecting. After securing your Air II, you then take a firm grip on the OOA diver with your left hand and make eye contact. You dump air as necessary with the pull cord on the right side of the BC. If you don't have a pull cord on the right side, you might reconsider your BC choice.

After the OOA diver has calmed, you exchange OK signals and ascend slowly and calmly. It is important to remain close to the OOA diver, maintain eye contact and keep a firm grip on his BC to help prevent panic and to control his ascent in the event of panic.

With a long hose, you will need to duck your head to get it out of the way as well as pick up your bungied octopus. Other than that, it's a good idea to continue exactly as I described above.

There are exceptions, but most divers are poorly trained and are likely to panic when OOA. I want them close. A long hose in this situation will be in the way. OTOH, if caving, you'd be nuts not to have a long hose.

I haven't done this because I'd never put an Air2 on. I have shared air where the OOA diver had my primary on a normal hose, and I've shared air where the OOA has my primary on a long hose.

There's *no* comparison whatsoever. The long hose is more comfortable and doable than a regular primary.

Being close to the diver does not mean having them off to your side with the regulator pulling to the side out of their mouth. Having a few feet of hose to play with is *great* for comfort and usability. Using a hose way too short and trying to look at the person without the reg pulling away is unneccessarily stressful. This isn't even about a long hose though.

Going for a backup under the chin is *at least* as easy as going for the inflator to put in your mouth. It gets rid of all the complications of an Air2.

Oh.. and what's the point of getting rid of a regulator hose when you have to add an extra pull dump to your BC?

oversea

June 18th, 2003, 02:08 PM

I have to agree with Walter, there is no problems wth dumping air from the bc with an air 2. I have the sp classic plus and it has a nice dump cord on the right side. It breathes as good or close to my s600 and there is nothing extra haging on me. I love the thing.

oversea

June 18th, 2003, 02:11 PM

THe pull dump on the bc is a rope with a plastic ball, how does that compare to an octopus? I jus recently shared air with the air 2 and we were face to face and comfortable. Try one, you'd be suprised.

klausbh

June 18th, 2003, 02:11 PM

in reply to jonnythan:

I dive a long hose, so I hand my primary regulator to my buddy, who can stay comfortably a few feet away. I put my air2 in my mouth and breathe a regulator that is a little different from the one I just had, and start a completely normal ascent procedure. I don't have to worry about yanking on my "*only*" air source, because it's not. I can buddy breathe my primary if there should be a problem.

Please explain what you mean by "venting the BC with breathing gas."

The quick disconnect is a valid point - I'll think about that.

The advantage of an air2 is less clutter.

in reply to MikeS

I didn't realize you could dump air while breathing an air2, that's interesting. I would hold it above my head. Have you considered a long primary with an air2? I don't understand why a standard configuration (short primary) would be preferable to that.

in general

-Don't get me wrong, I am actually trying to come up with good arguments against the air2 in order to save some money ...

-Klaus

GearHead

June 18th, 2003, 02:14 PM

I wonder why you think that a long primary is impractical for most recreational divers? I agree that 7' isn't ideal for most, but even a 5 footer that you don't have to stow under a can light is better than the standard short hose currently in use, IMHO. I believe a long primary is safer and easier to deal with in an OOA situation.

double125's once bubbled...
I prefer the 7 ft hose with a back up on a necklace but that is not practicle for most recreational divers. As far as the air 2 goes I dont like them just because they make a simple task more complex. When you breath the air 2 it makes it difficult to deflate on ascent as well as adding to the confusion. When you cant move freely because that thing has got your head all twisted because the hose is not long enough it will start to induce panic. I think people buy them just to fool themselves into thinking the have a backup not expecting to ever need it in a real world situation.

Dryglove

June 18th, 2003, 02:25 PM

One major downfall is that if your inflator button sticks and you have to disconnect the hose leading to the air2 you no longer have a secondary breathing source. Of course your bc should be able to vent faster than the air going in it but you only have so many hands especially in an OOA situation.

I have had both set ups and prefer the long hose as i dont particulary care to have a panicked OOA diver plastered to my face. Its nice to give each other a little room to control your buoyancy and get things under control and make a nice slow controlled ascent to the surface.

It is also much easier to find your secondary reg that is bungeed under your chin than try to find your dangling air2 especially when your OOA diver takes your primary reg and you have to try to feed your air2 between yourself, the OOA diver and into your mouth.

Walter

June 18th, 2003, 02:31 PM

Jon,

The Air II is not the ideal choice, but it works easily and it works well. It is not dangerous, it is a fine alternative.

"There's *no* comparison whatsoever."

Of course there's no comparison when you haven't compared.

"Being close to the diver does not mean having them off to your side with the regulator pulling to the side out of their mouth."

You are correct. It is face to face, eyes 1 to 1 ½ feet apart. A standard primary hose works quite well. A standard octo hose is slightly better. Both are better than a long (5' or 7') hose.

"Going for a backup under the chin is *at least* as easy as going for the inflator to put in your mouth."

Agreed. The bungied octo is an excellent choice.

"It gets rid of all the complications of an Air2."

There are none to get rid of. It's very simple to use.

"Oh.. and what's the point of getting rid of a regulator hose when you have to add an extra pull dump to your BC?"

Add? Who's adding an extra pull dump? It's been standard since Scubapro introduced the vest BC.

klausbh,

"The quick disconnect is a valid point"

It is not. If it is not secure, it'll disconnect the first time you use it as an inflator, it won't wait until you need it as a regulator.

GearHead,

"I believe a long primary is safer and easier to deal with in an OOA situation."

I disagree. In most situations, you need to be very close to the OOA diver with a firm grip on their BC. Not doing so may lead to panic and panic is the biggest killer of divers. A shorter hose is, in my opinion, safer in most cases.

kevink

June 18th, 2003, 02:32 PM

If you are looking to cut down on clutter, why carry any gear at all, just free dive all the interesting spots?

More Air2 Hassles - -

You travel and the suitcase that held you BC gets lost - - you cannot use your Reg on a rental BC.

You have a problem with your BC or Reg and you will have to use a complete set of rental gear, rather than subbing in a Reg. or a BC into your familiar set of gear.

What is with that goofy connector anyway. I know they oversized it to ensure proper airflow, but nothing else will fit it, and would you trust the adapters that turn standard sizes into Air2 sizes?

jonnythan

June 18th, 2003, 02:35 PM

Walter once bubbled...
Jon,

The Air II is not the ideal choice, but it works easily and it works well. It is not dangerous, it is a fine alternative.

"There's *no* comparison whatsoever."

Of course there's no comparison when you haven't compared.

I need to go to work, but I wanted to respond to this.

I said there's no comparison between the long primary and a normal primary.

I never said it was dangerous, I just think it's a terrible idea that gives you nothing in return for a slew of disadvantages.

Arnaud

June 18th, 2003, 02:36 PM

If the Air 2 fails, you lose both your inflator and your octo/secondary.

MikeFerrara

June 18th, 2003, 02:40 PM

I like the idea of controling my buoyancy in a OOA situation exacly as I would any other time. I can't do that with my inflator/deflator in my mouth. I don't doubt that it can be done but I saw a diver, who I know for a fact practiced with his air2 like device, botch the ascent because he couldn't find his inflator which was in his mouth instead of in his hand.

Your hand knows where to go to dump air. IMO, you shouldn't disapoint it.

MikeS

June 18th, 2003, 03:37 PM

klausbh once bubbled...
in reply to MikeS
I didn't realize you could dump air while breathing an air2, that's interesting. I would hold it above my head. Have you considered a long primary with an air2? I don't understand why a standard configuration (short primary) would be preferable to that.

I have not considered a long primary with an air2. I see the air2 as a solution that causes more problems than it solves. I have a HP hose for the computer, a hose for the primary, a hose for the power inflator, and a hose for the drysuit inflation. The question is; is the value of reducing the hose count from 5 to 4 greater than the disadvantage of having to breathe from a less than optimal regulator and adapted to the change in functionality of the power inflator dump? I don’t think so.

The backup regulator should be functionally as good as the primary. In a stressful OOA situation, I don’t want to have to compensate for the fact that power inflator functionality is limited.

Obviously many people use Air II and I’ve never heard of anyone dying from one. With sufficient training you can learn to overcome the limitations, I just don’t know why you would want to. IMO they’re just not the best or even the runner up choice of configurations.

Mike

pcscuba

June 21st, 2003, 01:25 PM

I see that most everybody in this forum doesn't like the AIR2. Everyone has legitamate reasons but as for me I love my AIR2. It breathes well at any depth I've taken it to and as far as the hose coming off, that's never even come close to happening. Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion (that's the beauty of this board) so in my opinion I think the AIR 2 is great. Let's go blow some bubbles!:)

debcov

June 22nd, 2003, 02:30 AM

I agree with Walter. I have an Air2 that I have used several times when bringing Navy Guys back into the Grotto after low on air. I have a long hose attached to my reg...so its no prob, as they hold on the back of my tank and the hose is long enuf to accomodate. As far as the dump....I just use the front dump on the Scuba Pro BC...much less probs than having an octo and a lot more stream-lined.

Personally, I look forward to the day when I will come back as a fish and dive tankless and hoseless...

ElectricZombie

June 23rd, 2003, 10:06 PM

Search the board.

AIRIIs are junk...

ScubaToneDog

June 24th, 2003, 12:36 AM

No offense, but you can tell who the serious Tech divers are here. Wow...a bit opinionated arent we?

Ive dove with a Air 2 for a good 3 years now. Ive never had to use it in an emergency, but I have practiced with it. Air dumps easily...if you tilt your head you can even dump from the mouth piece. It delivers a ton of air and it does cut down on clutter. I wouldnt recommend it for serious tech or wreck diving, but for rec diving it will serve you fine.

:spaninq:

OT: Electric Zombie...I love the Dr. Phibes pic in your profile......

Al Mialkovsky

June 24th, 2003, 12:53 AM

I am noticing that if someone doesn't like a particular piece of equipment then that equipment is junk. Worthless, has no value at all.

I'd prefer to keep my mind open on anything.

My wife and I have been using Air2 for nearly 3 years now. We practice OOA ascents maybe once a month. We dive a lot. We have zero problems with anything relating to Air2. Now when I dive with a new buddy I have them do a little practice with me. If they want me for a buddy they comply.

It's different but it's easy.

Once while diving in a lousy big crowd of people in Monterey I saw an OOA situation where the buddy wasn't paying attention, the guy was starting to panic. I offered him my primary as I slipped my Air2 in my mouth. He was a little grabby but it was ok.

We went up while my wife notified his buddy that there was a little problem.

I see problems with just about any setup and if you think there isn't some possible problem with the setup you are using then perhaps you may be overlooking something serious.

Jonathan

June 24th, 2003, 01:14 AM

some people are getting confused between Air2 and Spare air in their short snappy "junk" replies?

I personally don't like them because if you are in a true OOA situation things are going to be messy and people tend to resort to reflex in that kind of situation. If they have been trained in such a way as to go for you octo they will look there if they don't notice you holding out a reg. If they can't find it you could have a scrap on your hands.

If diving with a well preped or regular buddy then it should not be an issue. If you are DM'ing tourists then you might want to think about it some more.

JMO

Jonathan

ZoCrowes255

June 24th, 2003, 01:43 PM

Show me hard data where an AIR II inhibited an Emergency Sharing Air Ascent and caused an accident. You can't because there aren't any. Manufacturers are not stupid. They would not produce something that is blatently unsafe.

Many on here are pontificating on the superiority of the long hose/bungied octo system. I can see the advantages of a longer hose in a cave or wreck penetration situation but not in your typical recreational open water dive. If there is a situation where I am with a panicking out of air diver I am going to grab hold of them and not let go because they have MY air source. With a longer hose it gives them the oppurtunity to get away and take me for a ride. With the shorter hose I maintain control. Perhaps the long hose is good for many diving situations but none that I have encountered (but I'm openminded)

I have never had any problems breathing off the AIR II. It's the same internal mechanism as the R190 and the R380 and those are both very good regs.

On dumping: ALL Scubapro BCs come equipped with a pull dump on the right shoulder (they had them even before the inception of the AIR II.)

I know quite a few people who have made thousands of dives with the AIR II since it was released and they have done so without any problem at all.

kelpmermaid

June 24th, 2003, 03:32 PM

Zo, read my post earlier in this thread. I think it qualifies as "hard data," although, fortunately, all surfaced safely. It was something like Jonathan just described, not involving my buddy, but a complete stranger literally "out of the blue." I really liked mine and never had any problems with it mechanically. Until I get my private (or invitation only) ocean, I feel more comfortable with the standard octo arrangement.

ZoCrowes255

June 24th, 2003, 11:58 PM

kelpmermaid once bubbled...
Zo, read my post earlier in this thread. I think it qualifies as "hard data," although, fortunately, all surfaced safely. It was something like Jonathan just described, not involving my buddy, but a complete stranger literally "out of the blue." I really liked mine and never had any problems with it mechanically. Until I get my private (or invitation only) ocean, I feel more comfortable with the standard octo arrangement.

Your situation is odd. I have always been taught and teach pass the primary (and I know most people on here do the same.) The guy in your OOA situation defied what I consider to be common logic. I find that to be very interesting.

I've always heard "if a person is out of air they are most likely going to just grab it out of your mouth."

Jonathan

June 25th, 2003, 12:25 AM

Your situation is odd. I have always been taught and teach pass the primary (and I know most people on here do the same.)

The most voiciferous here are the tekie's that will do as you describe but if you believe the PADI material and 70% of the world learn through them then most people here will surely give up the octopus as that is what they teach.

This may be out of date as I am a few quarters behind in my updates - you can get a letter from the states in 3 days but it takes PADI 3 months + to get you an update if you live in a non English speaking country....

Jonathan

ElectricZombie

June 25th, 2003, 12:54 AM

ZoCrowes255 once bubbled...
Manufacturers are not stupid. They would not produce something that is blatently unsafe.

Manufacturers DO produce gear that is blatently unsafe. Most manufacturers design gear to look good in the dive store rather than to perform properly while diving. I'm not even going to get into what products fall under this catagory as many have been mentioned on ScubaBoard in the past.

Many on here are pontificating on the superiority of the long hose/bungied octo system. I can see the advantages of a longer hose in a cave or wreck penetration situation but not in your typical recreational open water dive. If there is a situation where I am with a panicking out of air diver I am going to grab hold of them and not let go because they have MY air source. With a longer hose it gives them the oppurtunity to get away and take me for a ride. With the shorter hose I maintain control. Perhaps the long hose is good for many diving situations but none that I have encountered (but I'm openminded)

If someone decides to panic, it does not matter if you have a long hose or a short hose...you will probably be taking a quick trip to the surface. This is really more a matter of training and practice. The simple solution would be to not dive with anyone you don't know, trust and have practiced with. The longhose is suitable for all levels of diving provided you and your buddy train properly.

I have never had any problems breathing off the AIR II. It's the same internal mechanism as the R190 and the R380 and those are both very good regs.

True, although not exactly the same. However, the AIRII must be "detuned" in order to not freeflow. They flap in the breeze and get banged into things, making them more prone to freeflow. They are not designed to be outstanding breathers.

I know quite a few people who have made thousands of dives with the AIR II since it was released and they have done so without any problem at all.
You can make an AIRII work...it just does not work very well. There are much better solutions available. On the whole, the AIRII really creates more problems than it solves.

carlislere

June 25th, 2003, 03:56 PM

I have used an Air2 since it came out; late 80's I think. The original Air2 wasn't that great, but they made some needed improvements and the second version was much better.
I have them on all the family BCs and my Drager Dolphin SCR. It is a fine regulator and inflator and can fill up your BC faster than a standard inflator. It doesn't get in the way and it is easy to locate.

MikeFerrara

June 25th, 2003, 04:13 PM

carlislere once bubbled...
I have used an Air2 since it came out; late 80's I think. The original Air2 wasn't that great, but they made some needed improvements and the second version was much better.
I have them on all the family BCs and my Drager Dolphin SCR. It is a fine regulator and inflator and can fill up your BC faster than a standard inflator. It doesn't get in the way and it is easy to locate.

IMO, fast inflation is not a good thing.

MikeFerrara

June 25th, 2003, 04:18 PM

ZoCrowes255 once bubbled...
Show me hard data where an AIR II inhibited an Emergency Sharing Air Ascent and caused an accident. You can't because there aren't any. Manufacturers are not stupid. They would not produce something that is blatently unsafe.

Many on here are pontificating on the superiority of the long hose/bungied octo system. I can see the advantages of a longer hose in a cave or wreck penetration situation but not in your typical recreational open water dive. If there is a situation where I am with a panicking out of air diver I am going to grab hold of them and not let go because they have MY air source. With a longer hose it gives them the oppurtunity to get away and take me for a ride. With the shorter hose I maintain control. Perhaps the long hose is good for many diving situations but none that I have encountered (but I'm openminded)

I have never had any problems breathing off the AIR II. It's the same internal mechanism as the R190 and the R380 and those are both very good regs.

On dumping: ALL Scubapro BCs come equipped with a pull dump on the right shoulder (they had them even before the inception of the AIR II.)

I know quite a few people who have made thousands of dives with the AIR II since it was released and they have done so without any problem at all.

Actually the only time I saw one used in a real OOA it was a big mess. The air donor was a DM who I know for a fact practiced with it and when it came time for him to vent his bc he couldn't find his inflator because it was in his mouth not in his hand.

Do you always use the right shoulder dump? If not, why would you want a different method of dumping air in an emergency that any other time.

ZoCrowes255

June 25th, 2003, 08:51 PM

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

Actually the only time I saw one used in a real OOA it was a big mess. The air donor was a DM who I know for a fact practiced with it and when it came time for him to vent his bc he couldn't find his inflator because it was in his mouth not in his hand.

Do you always use the right shoulder dump? If not, why would you want a different method of dumping air in an emergency that any other time.

Before I started having ear trouble I always used the shoulder dump. Around students I would raise my inflator (because it was what they were trained to do) and use my shoulder dump. I am in my equipment so much that most of it has become an extension of my body.

This summer I have started to get allergies so I have to really watch how quickly I vent my air so I use the inflator to dump. I've done many OOA Emergency drills and have never had a problem with the AIR II (thankfully never had a real situation where it was necessary.)

kelpmermaid

June 26th, 2003, 01:25 AM

It's even harder to vent air from the Air 2/equivalent when there is another person attached to it. Trust me. Once I got it back, it was fine, but those were a few tense moments.

Walter

June 26th, 2003, 06:33 AM

"Do you always use the right shoulder dump? If not, why would you want a different method of dumping air in an emergency that any other time."

I quick using an Air II several years ago, but I still use the right shoulder dump. It's much easier to use and faster than using the hose.

WVMike

June 26th, 2003, 07:47 AM

I have been thinking about this and appreciate all the comments. I was trained with the AirII and all the people I dive with (so far) were also. My LDS pushes it as they train with it. I also trained with a Sherwood Silhoutte and got one of them , price and familarity.

Now, I wish I had known more at the time, I really wish I had a right hand dump and next BC will have one. I am not comfortable pulling on the hose to dump and have now seen two hoses pulld off (not mine). So I dump with inflator overhead on ascents and try go head down and dump with lower right pull cord underwater. So I can see me having problems dumping in a real OOA. I have only done OOA in practice and you do swim face to face very close with AirII. I would like a little more room there as well.

I am thinking I would like to try an Octo AAS and or bungied setup.

As far as the bungied reg could someone post a picture, I would like to see the details?

thanks

DA Aquamaster

June 26th, 2003, 08:19 AM

I have used the Tusa equivalent of a generation III Air 2 for years (Tabata makes them for Scubapro).

It may have soem theoretical faults but I have never had any problem bringing someone up in an out of air situation, it has never freeflowed under normal use and it has never failed as an inflator and I have seen many other inflators that have for various mechanical reasons. It is a quality piece of equipment that is quite well designed. It also happens to be an excellent balanced inflator offering the ability to make very minute additions of air - many of the inflators in use out there don't allow that - and you could do far worse in terms of an inflator.

Having a panicked diver a foot in front of you face with direct eye contact is normally pretty calming and they won't often remain panicked once you get and hold their attention. The fact that the AIR 2 pretty much requires this positioning is not as bad as it has been made out to be.

I also do a lot of heavy lifting underwater and it actually works well to inflate lift bags, the one concern being that you are a little close to the bag and item and it requires some care to remain clear of the bag when the bags goes up. In very cold water it may freeze after passing a lot of air but is easily disconnected which is actually a very significant advantage over using an octo for this purpose. The only other option in a cold water heavy lift situation is taking a stage bottle along to do the job and that is often overkill.

One thing not mentioned is that it is well suited to solo diving where a pony tank is required and whose second stage will normally be in the location normally occupied by an octopus. Current thought on solo diving with a pony is that even with a pony you still should have an alternate second stage on the primary tank and the Air 2 fills this role nicely and the ability to avoid yet another hose becomes more important.

redeyejedi

July 24th, 2003, 02:19 AM

i dont know much about bcs' at all. i called up a couple of shops and one guy was hypin' up the scuba pro classic with the airII.
i have been reading many neg posts bout the airII. from what i hear it's the length of the primary hose(which shouldn't' have much to with air2 functionality, couldn't you use a longer hose?) and an issue deflated on ascent with the air2 reg in the mouth.
is this it or am i missing other information?
also, is locating the alt/air2 more or less difficult....time consuming? is releasing air from the bc difficult during ascent? emerg ascent?
thanx

pggeek

August 18th, 2003, 03:01 PM

I have a scuba pro air 2 and love it. I am not going to argue a octo on a long hose is better when using it but the air 2 is better when not using it. You just need to pratice with it because it does shift control around a little. But it is alwas in the same spot and breeths well, I throw it in my mouth now and then to practice. personally i rathor not have the extra clutter and thing hanging. besides I adj my bc all the time so I know where the air 2 is who knows what my octo gets tangled in.

jplacson

September 2nd, 2003, 11:25 PM

Ok, I've been considering an Air2 type system as well...

now, before all the tech divers start flaming me... I really want to hear both sides... I've been reading ALL the threads here and in other forums about the pros and cons of such a system.

Here's something I'd like to ask though...

Most complaints are on the non-standard placement of the Air2...not on its reliability...granted that it has more failure points than a split system. But has any Air2 actually failed to deliver air? I'm not being sarcastic..I'd just like to know how much greater is the failure rate of an Air2 system over a regular octo (which can fail as well)

With regards to donating your primary over your octo... this goes beyond the Air2 system... DIR octos are mounted on 20" hoses... bungeed around their necks. There's NO WAY an OOA diver could wrestle a DIR octo away from the donor diver... the donor diver gives his PRIMARY system (on a 6'-7' hose) to the OOA diver.

If I mounted my primary on a 6' hose, and used an Air2... other than the deflating process... why is this setup so taboo in the DIR or tech diver community? The OOA procedure is almost identical to DIR... much more than PADI's OOA procedures. In fact, a DIR diver should be more 'at home' with an Air2 buddy than with a PADI buddy. Since an Air2 diver's OOA procedures are identical (at least from the OOA diver's POV) to DIR.

Anyway, my main concern is... how much more prone to failure is the Air2 over a normal octo?

I'm looking at buying an Apeks ATX50 reg... with either an AT20 octo or Apeks' Octo+ (yes, the Zeagle Octo+ is made by Apeks)

I emailed Apeks and they were honest enough to inform me that the Octo+ is not a smooth breathe... they said that it is made for emergencies only and not to expect performance close to any of their current line-up.

Of course I never expected great performance from an emergency system... I just want it to work. That's what it was meant for.

But like I said, for those of you who have Air2s or Octo+ or any similar system... how often does it fail? What kind of failures have you experienced? And is it any more unreliable than a regular octo... in terms of a 2nd stage.

To the tech & DIR divers... just wondering... isn't the procedure I stated above, closer to DIR procedures in OOA situations than PADI training? And wouldn't the level of training of a diver dictate the effectiveness of any piece of equipement used? Whether a regular octo, bungeed octo on a short hose, or an Air2? Wouldn't any config, be a 'death-trap' if not properlly trained to use it? (A PADI diver would freak with a DIR setup)

I'm just trying to really compare sides... for ME... I'm not trying to persuade anyone to use an AIR2 or to stay away from one. I'm trying to see if the setup I want is right for me. Thank you all for your patience...specially the DIR guys... sorry for bugging you all regarding this topic... I'm just trying to learn as much as I can before deciding on gear I intend to breathe from! :lol:

DA Aquamaster

September 3rd, 2003, 12:33 AM

An Air II requires you to donate your primary, which is the same basic philosphy as donating your long hose primary reg. The Air II is also designed to be easily located, as is an alternate second stage on a short hose bungeed around your neck. The techniques are very similar, even if using an air II is not "doing it right".

Personally, I think an Air II also makes sense for solo diving as it provides you with a backup second stage to access the contents of your primary tank and then allows you to skip a conventional octopus and instead carry a redundant second stage and pony bottle. Less equipment, fewer hoses, better streamlining, same number of options - a good deal all the way around.

I have used both the Scubapro Air II and the TUSA Duo Air (same as an Air 2 and made by the same company but with different colored and shaped buttons) for about 10 yrs and have never had a problem or failure. It's a pretty simple and bullet proof design.

Part of the design concept is that, unlike an octopus, an Air II gets used constantly, gets flushed out every time you dump air through it and stays cleaner, which contributes to reliability. And since you also use it often, small problems like a slight freeflow, will get noticed and corrected. In contrast it is not uncommon to see a conventional octopus get drug through sand, mud, sea weed, etc and be in no condition to be used if needed on short notice.

jonnythan

September 3rd, 2003, 12:40 AM

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...
An Air II requires you to donate your primary, which is the same basic philosphy as donating your long hose primary reg. The Air II is also designed to be easily located, as is an alternate second stage on a short hose bungeed around your neck. The techniques are very similar, even if using an air II is not "doing it right".

Personally, I think an Air II also makes sense for solo diving as it provides you with a backup second stage to access the contents of your primary tank and then allows you to skip a conventional octopus and instead carry a redundant second stage and pony bottle. Less equipment, fewer hoses, better streamlining, same number of options - a good deal all the way around.

I have used both the Scubapro Air II and the TUSA Duo Air (same as an Air 2 and made by the same company but with different colored and shaped buttons) for about 10 yrs and have never had a problem or failure. It's a pretty simple and bullet proof design.

Part of the design concept is that, unlike an octopus, an Air II gets used constantly, gets flushed out every time you dump air through it and stays cleaner, which contributes to reliability. And since you also use it often, small problems like a slight freeflow, will get noticed and corrected. In contrast it is not uncommon to see a conventional octopus get drug through sand, mud, sea weed, etc and be in no condition to be used if needed on short notice.

The bungeed backup gives you all of the important advantages you have listed and doesn't require you to change your ascent procedures in a high stress situation when your muscle memory is most critical.

jonnythan

September 3rd, 2003, 12:48 AM

jplacson once bubbled...
To the tech & DIR divers... just wondering... isn't the procedure I stated above, closer to DIR procedures in OOA situations than PADI training? And wouldn't the level of training of a diver dictate the effectiveness of any piece of equipement used? Whether a regular octo, bungeed octo on a short hose, or an Air2? Wouldn't any config, be a 'death-trap' if not properlly trained to use it? (A PADI diver would freak with a DIR setup)

I'm just trying to really compare sides... for ME... I'm not trying to persuade anyone to use an AIR2 or to stay away from one. I'm trying to see if the setup I want is right for me. Thank you all for your patience...specially the DIR guys... sorry for bugging you all regarding this topic... I'm just trying to learn as much as I can before deciding on gear I intend to breathe from! :lol:

Well, I can't give an "official" answer, but the answer lies in what's *best* instead of what's *almost good enough*. In a high stress situation (an OOA diver), you become extremely task loaded and your muscle memory reflexes are what count the most. This is when you *most* need to pay attention to what's really going on and not about the ascent procedure that's different than normal. Additionally, an inflator malfunction or hose disconnect renders your backup second stage disfunctional.

The reason that it's so taboo is that the solution offers no advantages over the bungeed octo and introduces critical disadvantages. There's simply a better way.

jplacson

September 3rd, 2003, 01:01 AM

Thanks DA, Jonny... Jonny... ok, I understand the whole deflate procedure violation... but I still feel that boils down to training, and not the flaw of the Air2...but what about as a regulator? Are the Air2 or Apeks Octo+ just as reliable as a regular octo? If not, are they THAT much more unreliable? Or does it boil down to user care & maintenance? I'm primarily concerned with the actual build quality of teh Air2 or Apeks (or Zeagle) Octo+ since these are my 2 considerations.

I'm not yet certified for cave or wreck diving, and when I do train for these dives, I probably will switch to a bungeed octo. But I'd like to have a 'casual' set for OW dives and basic fun dives with my friends. So an Air2/Octo+ is a bit lighter & streamlined for OW dives.

I just want to know if these are poorly built regs... or are they decent & reliable enough to get the job done..ie: emergency OOA and ascent from 100'

Thanks again for your time! :) Don't worry... I haven't bought my reg yet... and It'll probably be a long time before I really decide on one with all the options out there.

So far I'm kinda leaning towards Apeks as a reg brand. Scubapro is 2nd on my list mainly cuz service fees for Scubapro here are one of the most expensive.

With either brand, I can get a matching 'safe 2nd' inflator so sticking with one brand for my reg set really appeals to me. :)

hantzu701

September 5th, 2003, 02:26 AM

this thread has been hammered to death.

Just thought I'd throw in my experiences.

I bought my equipment from my LDS shortly after I got certified. I guess I cratered to the argument that diving with your own equipment would help me learn faster.

Anyway, my rig came with an Air 2 instead of an octopus. This is despite the fact that my LDS rentals don't have Air 2 and use an octopus.

At the time my LDS managed to convince me that Air 2 was the "better" solution. In subsequent open water dives with my buddy (who also has Air 2), we found OOA drills to be awkward, but doable. Dumping air from the BC, by pulling on the Air 2, works as designed, but freaked me out.

After our AOW, we've revisited the OOA drills and were really uncomfortable with the entire Air 2 OOA procedure. We've tried the drill in which the OOA diver has to surface without a mask. We've also did the drill in which the OOA diver and his/her buddy share the buddy's primary. I agree that these drills are unlikely events, but task overload in cold water is a real concern for us.

I orginally thought that we could get around our doubts with practice. We had started these drills at 60 ft. However, there was a mean thermocline. We started making mistakes - like setting for the surface without checking for overhead obstructions, or losing control of the ascent because the person using the Air 2 forgot to vent. We did the drills at 30 ft without major problems.

Just my limited experiences. I think that the Air 2 is a well engineered piece of gear that does what it's suppose to do. ScubaPro probably needs to do a better job with educating it's consumers of the practical use of the product.

However, I think my buddy and I weren't convinced that this gear solution and procedure for OOA made sense for us. Since then, we added an octopus and use the Air 2 as a tertiary backup. I know this is not the best solution, and I'm sure that our gear and diving skills will change as our diving becomes more technical.

Genesis

September 5th, 2003, 08:22 AM

to get rid of a hose (entanglement and clutter issue) but are keeping it as a "tertiary backup" then IMHO you should put it on eBAY and get a regular inflator.

You can get $100+ for it on eBAY, and the inflator will cost you $20 from Joe Diver. So that's a net gain of $80.

Why? Because if you need a TERTIARY backup, you can breathe off the BC inflator! Yeah, its ugly, but it works, and for the EXTREMELY unlikely event of needing it, you get rid of the Air2, which adds complexity at that point (and one more stage to be serviced every year) without giving you much in return.

Now if you can deal with the Air2 on a recreational setup, then go for it. Just make sure you can donate your primary - specifically, that the hose on your primary is long enough.

BTW, on SP BCs you don't need to pull on the Air2 hose to dump. There is a little "trigger" on the BC's dump where the inflator hose attaches to the BC; you can trip that (forward) with your finger to dump - pulling is not necessary. Why the people who sell these things don't show divers that calls into question their intelligence!

If you're actually making an ascent on the Air2, use that to dump your BC, or use the opposite (right) shoulder dump, which all recent SP BCs have. It avoids pulling on the hose (which IMHO is a bad idea anyway, as it is possible for it to fail catastrophically when you do that, and if THAT happens you'll be VERY unhappy)