Training death in Cozumel

[davidofaustin]

I really dont what to ask. My wifes son and family went to Cozumel, and this morning took a certification course. agency unknown, resort unknown, my me - right now. My grandson and step-son / with an instructor, were at 15 feet of water (open - or confined, unknown) when my grandson appeared to be having mask problems and went to the surface. He was followed immediatedly, and found unresponsive and unconsious on the surface. CPR was administered, and a nearby Doctor involved.
Cause of death, asphyxiation.

My son-in-law is requesting an autopsy, but would prefer it to be in the U.S. - We have found that he can not repatriate the body, until it has be enbalmed.

Here is where we need help. Can we trust the Mexico Medical Examiner to give us a forensic report that can be used? And/or can a 2nd autopsy be done in the U.S. after embalming?

I will include more information as I get it. But these questions need to be handled quickly. (nothing seems to be open on Sunday)

Please reply

[I Dive]

TSANDM is a SB Moderator and a Medical Doctor. I forwarded this to her and hopefully she can see it soon enough to answer your questions. My sincere condolences. This is horrible.

[I Dive]

It just dawned on me-call DAN. They have Doctor's you can speak with and get the immediate answers you need. 1-919-684-4326 is the number I have for them, I also have a 1-919-684-8111

[fisheater]

Try contacting the nearest U.S. Consulate or the Embassy in Mexico City.

[Desert_Diver]

You might try putting this up on the Coz forum. Some of the residents down there may have experience with this sort of situation.

[davidofaustin]

I appreciate the help. I have called DAN, (1st thing), they told me to call the US consul and gave me the number. It leads to the same answer though. An autopsy there, Embalming there, then he can be repatriated. I havent an answer on the 2nd autopsy issue yet. (I did not ask DAN about this one - yet)

[MMM]

I'm so sorry to hear this. I saw your post on the Coz board but didn't realize the death included a loved one. I hope you get the info you are seeking and that your family can come through this. I lost a sister through drowning (I recovered her body) and know first-hand how devestating this can be to a family. My thoughts are with you.

[mikerault]

He may have held his breath leading to an lung expansion injury. My condolences to you and your family.

Mike

[davidofaustin]

thank you MMM.

[CheddarChick]

It takes my breath away at what you and your family are going thru right now... The scuba family is large and loving and if you need help, you have come to the right place... Please accept all our thoughts and prayers.....

[Christi]

I am so sorry or your loss and what you must be going through right now David. I haven't heard anything, but will see if i can get any answers for you.

I do know that the person you need to speak with here is Anne Harris (US Consulate) - although she can be difficult to get in touch with. I'm sure the local Dr. and/or the resort have already contacted her.

[davidofaustin]

Thanks Mike, I had thought that myself - I'm sure that the local Med. Examiner will come up with the correct cause, but My wife' son and daughter will need to know for sure. I really appreciate your reply.

[davidofaustin]

It takes my breath away at what you and your family are going thru right now... The scuba family is large and loving and if you need help, you have come to the right place... Please accept all our thoughts and prayers.....

It is nice to have a large family to lean on.
I am beginning to let the enormity of this sink in, and it hurts, a lot. Prayers are appreciated, not only for me, but my step-son and daughter in law also.

Thank all of you so much.

[davidofaustin]

Christi,
Anything you can find out for me; especially full circumstances, would help my wife and I deal with this. Please PM, or send via dave@divemasters.org though.

Thank you

[DiverG]

David, I am sorry to hear of the loss of your grandson. You and your family have my condolences.

[mbalmr]

I am so sorry for your loss, however, the question about a 2nd autopsy after embalming is an easy one. The answer is yes, having been a funeral director I know for a fact that an autopsy is possible after embalming even if there has already been an autopsy. Unfortunately, it will probably have to be a private autopsy which can be very expensive. I hope this has helped.

Regards,

[Web Monkey]

Call Divers Alert Network. Someone is available 24x7x365.

I'm pretty certain they have experience in this area and should know how things work.

The student may have actually had DAN insurance because it's free for OW students, however DAN will talk to you regardless.

Terry


Diving Emergencies (http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/images/misc/remindericon.gifRemember: Call local EMS first, then DAN!)
1-919-684-4DAN (4326)
+1-919-684-9111 (Latin America Hotline)
International Emergency Hotlines (http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/contact/international.asp)
Travel Assistance for Non-Diving Emergencies
+1-919-684-3483
If outside the USA, Canada, Puerto Rico, Bahamas, British or U.S. Virgin Islands, call +1-919-684-3483 (collect).
Non-Emergency Medical Questions
1-800-446-2671 or 1-919-684-2948, Mon-Fri, 8:30am-5:00pm (ET)
All Other Inquiries
1-800-446-2671 or 1-919-684-2948




I really dont what to ask. My wifes son and family went to Cozumel, and this morning took a certification course. agency unknown, resort unknown, my me - right now. My grandson and step-son / with an instructor, were at 15 feet of water (open - or confined, unknown) when my grandson appeared to be having mask problems and went to the surface. He was followed immediatedly, and found unresponsive and unconsious on the surface. CPR was administered, and a nearby Doctor involved.
Cause of death, asphyxiation.

My son-in-law is requesting an autopsy, but would prefer it to be in the U.S. - We have found that he can not repatriate the body, until it has be enbalmed.

Here is where we need help. Can we trust the Mexico Medical Examiner to give us a forensic report that can be used? And/or can a 2nd autopsy be done in the U.S. after embalming?

I will include more information as I get it. But these questions need to be handled quickly. (nothing seems to be open on Sunday)

Please reply

[Martha]

I am so sorry for the loss of your grandson. My condolences to you and your family.

[damage]

My condolences to you and your family

[NJ to FLA]

I am so sorry to hear of your loss.

[scubaren]

I am so sorry to hear about your loss. My thoughts and prayers are with you at this difficult time.

[davidofaustin]

The diving community is so full of wonderful caring people.

Thank you all, for the love, support, and caring. May we dive together some day. (If we havent already.)

Dave

[diverdoug1]

Very sorry for your loss. I am intimately aware of the pain associated with the loss of a child. With respect to question about embalming having an effect on a second autopsy, yes it can cause some clouding of the autopsy results. In this case, it may make it difficult to tell if there was aspiration of seawater. If there is a question of the veracity of any initial autopsy findings, utilizing an independent pathologist to reveiw the case prior to embalming may be an option.
Hope this is helpful.

[RubberDucky]

Hi Dave,

I just sent you a private message with information about a few people on the island that you may want to get in touch with. Sorry to hear about what happened :'(

[DandyDon]

This just totally sucks. Very sorry for your loss, Dave. I have a grandson the same age who worries me with his independence in murky lake water and have considered the horror of a similar possibility.

You certainly have the condolences and support of many or us here. Damn!

[TSandM]

Sorry not to respond earlier, but I was on an airplane most of yesterday. And I don't really have any answers. Medical examiners vary in their expertise and experience, but I would think one on Cozumel would have seen enough diver fatalities to know what to look for in drowning or arterial gas embolism. My initial thought, from the small amount of information available, is that the death was either AGE or laryngospasm, which can occur when salt water gets into the trachea or breathing passage. There are also some rare cardiac conditions that predispose young people to cardiac arrest when exercising, but I don't believe they show up on autopsy.

How much embalming would affect autopsy results, I don't know, but I would think it could obliterate evidence of arterial gas embolism. I'm not a pathologist or medical examiner, though.

I am extremely sorry for your loss.

[DiveNav]

My, and my team, condolences to you and your family.

How old was your grand-son?

What is his name so we can mention him in our prayers ?

Alberto

[mstevens]

Consider trying to get him to the medical school in San Antonio. I worked on the autopsy service in Galveston when I was in medical school and am convinced that most general hospital pathologists are neither particularly interested in autopsies or that they get much practice. Only large teaching hospitals associated with medical schools are likely to have busy autopsy services with full-time specialists, which is what you want in this instance.

Autopsies can be very helpful. Even though I knew my daughter's cause of death beforehand, the autopsy results and discussion with the pathologist (who specialized in pediatric autopsies) found some things that nobody had known about and that helped make some things much more clear.

I realize your situation is very different and that nobody, ever, wants to be thinking about an autopsy on a kid he loves. You sound like a person who wants answers and this may be a way to get some.

[pidgiepoo]

I'm very sorry for your loss. Reminds me to be even more alert and cautious when my grandkids are diving Coz. Hope you find the answers and results you are looking for concerning the autopsy.

[Christi]

Christi,
Anything you can find out for me; especially full circumstances, would help my wife and I deal with this. Please PM, or send via dave@divemasters.org though.

Thank you

HI David - I just sent you an e-mail. I hope you and your family are hanging in there.

[Thalassamania]

Dear David,

I am very sorry for the loss of your grandson.

If the description of the accident, mask exercise, bolt to the surface, etc., are accurate, I can almost guarantee you that the cause of death was an Arterial Gas Embolism. I'm not sure about embalming, but if memory serves (and this is going back more than 40 years when I had a college job in the county morgue) it can.

[Quero]

Dear David,

My heart goes out to you and your family. I hope you find the answers you seek and that they will bring you some degree of solace.

[AquaPixie]

David, I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your loved one - Hang in there ;)

[richhagelin]

Does anyone know whether the young man was in a Discover Scuba class or doing the open water portion of a full SCUBA certification?

Rich Hagelin

[Elonna]

David, I am so sorry...your family is in my thoughts.

[EMS GURU]

David;
My deepest sympathies go out to you and your family. This has my 14 y/o son and my hearts and minds filled with grief and sorrow, as I am the Paramedic from Wisconsin that jumped over to the boat your family was on, and attempted vigorously to resuscitate Tyler. As for what happened I am not sure, but I do know that when the dive instructor (who is top notch with over 25 year’s experience) first got to Tyler in the water, his jaw was clenched tight and both hands were decorticate posturing. I am waiting for a call back from a friend that is a medical pathologist in L.A., to get a definite answer to your autopsy question.

What I found most disturbing was the lack of skills, aggressiveness, and advanced cardiac life support equipment provided by local EMS. If I can help you at all send me an e-mail. You and your family are in our thoughts and prayers over your loss, and this tragic accident.


Our Condolences

Dave & Kyle

[Ron Parker]

My God Bless you and your family in this tragic lost. You have come to the right site for electronic advice.

[scubacoz22]

i am so sorry to hear of your loss. We just got back from Cozumel last week diving with our 2 grand kids ages 12 and 14. My heart and prayers go out to you and your family. Kathy in Mico Texas (just outside of San Antonio)

[paulw]

I am very sorry to hear about your loss and it truly saddens me as I am not only part of the dive family but also part of the Bethany family, my prayers are with you and your family.

Paul

[k ellis]

EMS I know how tragic this has got to be on the family and you as well. On behalf of all of us on the board and most definately for the sake of the family thank you for being there and doing all you could do.

Im sure that in time it well tell what exactly happened so be strong and have faith and God bless the family!

[DevonDiver]

If you are planning any sort of legal case, then maybe contact a lawyer in the first instance... as they will have a vested interest in ensuring the medical autopsy is carried out properly.

And, my deepest sympathies for your loss.

[shawrg]

David,

This story breaks my heart. I am so sorry for the loss of your grandson. My condolences to you and your family.

[Zosimus]

My condolences to you and your family.

[Thalassamania]

Is any information about what actually occurred available?

[davidofaustin]

Thanks for asking Thal....
I have a little more information. I am pretty sure of what happened, but some of it is still supposition.

Tyler (my 15 y.o. grandson) was doing a Discover Scuba with his parents. They had completed the pool, and a shallow beach dive under the program. They were offered an "optional" boat dive on Santa Rosa reef.
Tyler had a few minor problems with his mask during the beach dive, but handled it ok. On the boat dive the three of them, with one other diver, and the instructor entered the water and were descending. Between 10 to 15 feet Tyler again had problems with his mask (he was "fiddling with it") The parents and Instructor were slightly deeper, and saw him, with his hands on his mask, and he then pointed up, and started up. Both parents started up after him. (Note; rate of ascent is not known, but it not appear to be excessive.) They saw Tyler on surface in a face down float, not moving. (I dont know if the reg was in his mouth or not.) The Instructor passed them both to reach Tyler as quickly as possible.
An EMS professional (from Wisconson) jumped in, from another boat, and both of them did cpr and got him on the boat. I am not sure the stratus of the Boats oxygen, but they took the boat into the beach, where a Doctor at the resort (guest?) assisted.
Tyler was pronounced at that time.

I know there are gaps, and I am going to fill in as many as I can. I am talking with DAN, and PADI, to try and work out the complete scenario. My take is that Tyler got water in his mask, and decided to abort the dive. When he looked up, the water entered his nose, and upon hitting his throat caused a "larangospasm" this caused his throat to close, and either stopped all, or part, of the air in lungs to stay trapped. As he went up, he developed a lung expansion injury, and believe (as offered by a few other divers as a cause) had a severe Arterial Gas Embolism. Which went the Cerebral route.

If I find out more information, I will pass it on. I am not trying to place blame, but I would like to have all the information possible. It sounds to me like it was an extemely unusual series of events, that once started, had no viable ending.

I do want to thank everyone for their prayers, love, and support. The Service was Saturday, and was very well done.

Dave

[DandyDon]

Dave, many of us have wanted to know but - hated to ask. Glad you don't mind sharing what you do know. In addition to our condolences, you have our support and hope you continue to feel comfortable talking with us about this horrible accident.

If I understand, there were 3 Discover divers with one Instructor, and a certified diver?

[MMM]

As I said at the outset, you have my most sincere sympathies as I know from first hand experience how hard this is. I have been wondering what you learned from the autopsy but didn't want to intrude. Who thinks that such serious consequences can occur in such a shallow depth. Thanks for the update.

[Jeff Toorish]

Dave,

First of all, thank you for your clear and remarkably poised explanation of the possible events related to this tragedy. None of us can imagine the pain you and your family must be going through. Your strength and bravery in relating the information my help avert another tragedy, and for that thank you.

Correct me if I am wrong, but a Laryngospasm is relatively unusual as I understand it. And normally a Laryngospasm involves not being able to inhale, but allows the victim to exhale, at least to some degree. I'm wondering if that would preclude exhaling while ascending.

Again, thank you for all you have shared.

Jeff

[davidofaustin]

Hi Don,
3 discover scuba, and 1 other person in gear (I dont know if he was another 'student', or if he was certified.)
1 instructor

Dave

[davidofaustin]

Dave,
Correct me if I am wrong, but a Laryngospasm is relatively unusual as I understand it. And normally a Laryngospasm involves not being able to inhale, but allows the victim to exhale, at least to some degree. I'm wondering if that would preclude exhaling while ascending.

Again, thank you for all you have shared.

Jeff

I dont know Jeff.
My personal research (I had never heard of it before) indicates it can restrict the passage of air, both ways. This information comes to me from the medical/surgical side of land based occurrences. I have read at least two accounts, and received one personal accounting from a friend, where this occured while the patient was on an Operating table. They were all given an emergency tracheotomy.
It is very rare in the diving/swimming world, (from what I understand).
Any medical people that have input on this would be greatly appreciated.
Dave

[Deep-6]

OMG!! I just read this and I know I'm late in saying this but, David, my heart really goes out to you and your family brother. I can't say enough how horrible I feel for you. If it offers any solice whatsoever I hope you know that you and your family will be in my thoughts and prayers.

[ibj40]

Dave


Bless you and your family!

[browntrout]

Just a heart wrenching story. Best wishes to you and your family.

[d_lafleur]

Who thinks that such serious consequences can occur in such a shallow depth.

Yes, there is a very false sense of security in shallow depths. When the truth of the matter is that it is the area where the external pressure changes (which causes internal pressure changes) at the highest ratio in regards to depth. It also happens to be the depths, where new divers feel confident and bolting to the surface seems to still be in the subconcious for survival. My 13 yo son dives with me and this is where he tends to be a little looser with his ascent rate.



Dave,
Once again you have my prayers and thoughts. I lost a very close friend's 10 yo son (read one of mine) in 2007 from a brain anuerism(SP), there was nothing we could do to change the outcome. We performed CPR for 25 minutes and he was on the vent for another 2.5 hours while the Dr.s did test, discussion, etc. Some times it is just our time, and it isnt up to us to choose. I learned some valuable life lessons that Saturday afternoon.

From the posts here, you have the sympathy of this community to help you.

[Gdog]

My thoughts and condolences to you and your family. May God be with you during this difficult time.

[DandyDon]

Just receied this on google alerts, but it is a news story subject to expected inaccuracies...

Community mourns loss of Bowie student killed in SCUBA accident (http://oakhillgazette.com/default.asp?sourceid=&smenu=106&twindow=Default&mad=No&sdetail=2349&wpage=&skeyword=&sidate=&ccat=&ccatm=&restate=&restatus=&reoption=&retype=&repmin=&repmax=&rebed=&rebath=&subname=&pform=&sc=1846&hn=oakhillgazette&he=.net)


64263


Tyler, an avid baseball player and soon-to-be sophomore at Bowie High School, died Aug. 16 while on vacation in Mexico.

Tyler was on his third SCUBA dive when the 15-year-old motioned to his father and their guide that he was having trouble with his mask and was going up. Moments later, his father saw his son's mask was off and he was floating to the top. A last-days-of-summer family vacation in Cozumel had turned to tragedy.

The medical examiner ruled that Tyler, an avid baseball player and soon-to-be sophomore at Bowie High School, died Aug. 16 from asphyxiation due to a constricted trachea during immersion.

His funeral will be at 11 a.m. Saturday at Bethany Lutheran Church, 3701 W. Slaughter Lane, preceded by visitation at 10 a.m. A celebration of Tyler's life will take place immediately after the funeral at the church. Graveside services will follow at Austin Memorial Park Cemetery. Tyler loved sports and while baseball was his first love he also played YMCA basketball and Austin United Soccer. He also enjoyed Theater Arts, Tango Club, Fifth Grade Volleyball Club and making silly home videos with his friends.

His family said many of the e-mails from friends and his coaches talk about how kind, friendly and positive Tyler was with everything he did. "We're finding out how very popular he was, judging from the amount of calls we've received," his father said.

Tyler was born March 8, 1994, in Austin and is survived by his parents, Steve and Angie, sister Courtney, grandparents Ivan Johnson, Lois Bilbrough, David Everett, Walter Laas, Betty Cannady and Lewis Keith, and an aunt and uncle Amy and David Flanagan; along with many other family members and loving friends.

His father said Tyler was very excited about this vacation and talked about it every day for the last couple of weeks. "We swam with dolphins during this trip, which was a long- time wish of his," he said.

In lieu of flowers, donations may be made to the Oak Hill Youth Sports Association, Bowie High School Baseball Booster Club, the Tyler **** Memorial Scholarship Fund (donations accepted at any Bank of America branch) or the charity of your choice.