Ontario Governing Body

[divebuddydale]

I was at The Dive Center in Stittsville yesterday (which BTW is another good store to frequent in the area for whoever was asking a few days back).

Fred and I were talking, we don't need more Gov't regulators, we need to come up with a set of Ontario Standards, and set up a voluntary organization that Divers and Dive Shops can belong to, that promote these standards. (Kinda like the Better Business Bureau of diving standards). Basically the certification agency has it's minimum requirements, but to have this affiliation, the shop's training must meet the Ontario Group Standards.

All it will take then is promotion of the group, (make it so divers only want to frequent shop's affiliated with the Ontario agency)

what are your thoughts on this??

Dale

[weight_for_me]

It sounds like something that the Ontario Underwater Council should be involved in. I don't know to what extent the standards would reach, but it should include a "No Pink Equipment" clause. (just kidding...)
Randy...

[SneakyB'tard]

Sounds Good

It would have to be a well thought out proceedure backed by a couples years of planning.
Unfortunatly, dive store and charter operator meetings tend to get nothing done and usually take 2 steps forward and 1.5 steps back.

It would have to be governed by a semi detached body of professionals with an array of credentials such as quality management, human resources, government regulatory proceedures and bodies, civil and business law, human rights, dive medicine, medicine, Labour Law, Ontario Health and Safety law, Employment equity, Workers compensation board, Dive education, recreation, Transport canada, canada revenue etc.....

When a list of standards are implemented they must be reasonable, unbiased, attainable and beneficial to the consumer as well as the industry.

Most important of all ...they must be enforced!

Good idea, you have my support.

[mglasspo]

Hi all,

I'm not opposed or for this idea, but I'll throw in something to make you all think. When does regulation become too much? I see it everywhere now, people imposing regulations "for my safety" such as NCC patrols in Gatineau Park kicking me out of a swimming area because there was no lifeguard. Being told I am not allowed to go 10 feet outside of the ropes area to get a ball that went too far by accident, when the lifeguard is there, because they wouldn't want to have to rescue me if I got into trouble 10 feet away from the swimming area. Things like that. I go many places and find there are too many constrictive rules that override a persons free choice. I would hate for this to happen to scuba diving. I think, if implemented properly, this would be a good idea, if implemented poorly it could become cumbersome and we'd all wish it away.

Mike

[SneakyB'tard]

people imposing regulations "for my safety" such as NCC patrols in Gatineau Park kicking me out of a swimming area because there was no lifeguard. Being told I am not allowed to go 10 feet outside of the ropes area to get a ball that went too far by accident, when the lifeguard is there, because they wouldn't want to have to rescue me if I got into trouble 10 feet away from the swimming area. Things like that. I go many places and find there are too many constrictive rules that override a persons free choice.

Thats a good point Mglasspo. As I see you are a CF member and an Officer at that! You must then be well versed in the QRO, CATO and SOP's that rule everything you do on the job. It is a pain I agree, but in Civie world it boils down to one word -

Liability

Everyone is afraid of being sued or publicly denounced for their actions or inactions, they impose rules. Unfortunatly it is our new way of life so we must change with the times.

[mglasspo]

Hey sneaky,

Yeah, unfortunately I am all too well versed in all the military acronymed rules sets, QRO, CFAO, CATO, CRSCO, CRCO, etc. etc. (I have a bunch more because I work with cadets)

I have never understood why courts or people don't just abide by the "swim/dive at your own risk" signage. I mean, the way I see it, if I were to get into trouble outside the swimming area, the lifeguard shouldn't be obligated to help me. As I am swimming outside the monitored area. If they're afraid of people swimming, drowning and suing them, we should be up signs every 2 feet along every waterway saying no swimming. But we don't. People ought to know better. But unfortunately due to a few bad apples, we're forced to live by the "better put some bubble wrap around the knife, lest it actually cut something" mentality.

Fittingly, the episode of the Simpsons last night was where Homer went on a rampage of making babies safe, and in the end, all you see is kids in the park and each one of them and all the park toys are wrapped in bubble wrap. I think Matt Groening hit the nail on the head for that one.

Everybody be careful, the coffee is hot.

[RICHinNC]

For what it is worth.....the lady with the hot coffee in her lap by McDonalds.....she got less than $1000......her lawyer cleaned up.

[mglasspo]

Really, that's all she needed or should have gotten, is a napkin, if you don't know the coffee is hot and will burn you, then too bad for you. The $1000 reward for stupidity is what I'll call that.

Man I'm pessimistic today.. sorry guys!

BTW: If anybody's around Prescott Sunday and sees me, say hi! :) I'll be down there doing a couple of dives and still haven't met anyone from the board.

[divebuddydale]

weight_for_me once bubbled...
It sounds like something that the Ontario Underwater Council should be involved in. I don't know to what extent the standards would reach, but it should include a "No Pink Equipment" clause. (just kidding...)
Randy...

OUC would be a great org to get involved, however Fred was mentioning to me yesterday, that he heard they were in the midst of going Belly Up (Bankrupt).


As for the pink thing, I agree :rolleyes:

Dale

[SneakyB'tard]

Requirements for recreational diving facilities (CEN project)


The aim of this working group and CEN/TC 329/WG 3, Recreational Diving Services, is to set up standards specifying safety requirements for diving centres, scuba diving
instructors and their assistants. DIN, as an independent body, is well suited to coordinate and focus the existing activities at national level. In the light of the inconsistencies in the market situation, the future standards could make a valuable contribution to increasing market transparency, consumer safety, quality of services as well as to improving and ensuring adequate qualifications on the part of those performing the services. They could also provide a basis for negotiations between suppliers and customers and for the certification of diving schools.

A corresponding certificate could serve as a criterion for selection by tour operators and other contract parties. The standards are to be understood as recommendations and minimumrequirements that can be “bettered” in practice. Against the background of a multiplicity of representative organizations in the recreational diving industry, the standards committee will take on the difficult task of achieving mutually acceptable positions and then present these at European level.

[seahunter]

Why don't y'all move to Quebec?
They already have a government backed body there running the scuba divers 'cause the divers are so stupid they need a big brother (Joke. OK!). Of course, it all costs money and since the general taxpayer isn't interested, be prepared to decide between car insurance and a scuba diver licence! Every diver in Quebec must register, take a government course (beyond his agency course) and pay a fee to the government before he dives.

DBD's original idea was a VOLUNTARY membership in a DIVE STORE ORGANIZATION that sets standards for acceptable behavior. Divers would be encouraged to fraternize member stores. If they did a good job, soon divers would only go to those stores. Member stores that don't keep up can be dropped. Non-member stores can be listed.
Now that's a good idea, not new nor even novel, but good!

Over the years several dive store owners have tried with mixed (usually not good) success to set up such a system. Wayne Crowley, Al Lambert, myself, Gerry Lowden and others. We never got enough support to make it work over the long run but it was always beneficial. Today it might be easier. There are fewer stores and the owners are somewhat more business-like. Additionally we have the internet as a great tool to use.

What areas of the sport would you suggest such an organization should try to improve?

[mglasspo]

I hadn't heard of this until recently, does this affect Ontario divers on the Quebec side?

[divebuddydale]

mglasspo once bubbled...
I hadn't heard of this until recently, does this affect Ontario divers on the Quebec side?

I am not sure about the aditional training from the gov't, I must assume it is right. I know that any divers planning on diving in Quebec must buy the licence (kinda like a fishing licence, just a reason to take money), at least thats what I have been told.

Dale

[pufferfish]

divebuddydale once bubbled...
OUC would be a great org to get involved, however Fred was mentioning to me yesterday, that he heard they were in the midst of going Belly Up (Bankrupt).

From reading the history of the OUC it looks like their heyday was in the 70's. I don't think it would be such a bad thing if the OUC disappeared as then the Ontario dive industry will be faced with no longer having the option of using the OUC to test their air to substandard levels. They are doing a huge disservice to the dive community offering substandard testing and continuing to promote their services as accurate and reliable. The sooner they go the way of Eaton's the better. OUC should not be in the business of testing air. Leave it to the professionals to test our air not some guy with no credentials sitting in a trailor up in the woods.

As for a new body the only reason I can see to have some province wide standards association would be to enforce air standards and maybe promote Ontario as a dive destination.

All the rest such as training standards, equipment standards, etc. is best left for the agencies and LDS to look after. No we don't need a Quebec model to complicate things further =-)

OUC History (http://www.underwatercouncil.com/history.htm)

[Chet]

Great idea, but as Seahunter has said it has been tried before and it did not work. Still too many egos that need to go through the door.
PUFF, group that looks after air and government standards, good idea. Who do you suggest?
Be Safe
Chet

[divebuddydale]

pufferfish once bubbled...



As for a new body the only reason I can see to have some province wide standards association would be to enforce air standards and maybe promote Ontario as a dive destination.

All the rest such as training standards, equipment standards, etc. is best left for the agencies and LDS to look after. No we don't need a Quebec model to complicate things further =-)

OUC History (http://www.underwatercouncil.com/history.htm)

I disagree about leaving the training standards up to the agencies and LDS, we have done that and have a great degradation of quality in some shops. Plus standards for agency X may not be as good as standards for agency Y, etc..

I am not looking at a Government regulatory organization, I am looking for a Voluntary Organization, that LDS, INTSRUCTORS and STUDENTS can belong to, and they hand a sticker in their window (like the Better Business Bureau) and they are proud of it. Basically this affiliation would say... I WANT THE BEST FOR MY DIVERS.


DALE


p.s Yes there probably would have to be fees per year for the LDS & INSTRUCTORS (Minimal, just to cover the cost of the org's ioffice expenses, mailing , not salarys)

[Marvintpa]

And who would govern this governing body?

The LDS owners? They have demonstrated a affinity for political in-fighting, and near zero levels of cooperation.

The students? Frankly, they know nothing (relatively speaking, that's why they're students) and would be underqualified.

Instructors? If you're saying some are unfit to teach then they're certainly unfit to govern.

The provincial government? Quabec has just demonstrated how much of a disaster that is. Who says they would introduce only the regulations you WANT and not something of their own uneducated contrivance?

The federal government? Quite frankly they don't care. This is not a federal matter and they'd push it to the provincial level in a heartbeat.

I find this entire thread to be a waste of electrons. I suggest you compare scuba to other industries before saying that it has gone bad.

[pufferfish]

divebuddydale once bubbled...
,.....I am not looking at a Government regulatory organization, I am looking for a Voluntary Organization, that LDS, INTSRUCTORS and STUDENTS can belong to, and they hand a sticker in their window (like the Better Business Bureau) and they are proud of it. Basically this affiliation would say... I WANT THE BEST FOR MY DIVERS.

Dale I wonder if that is what the OUC did in its heyday. I haven't been around this industry long enough to know but from reading the history it looks like there was a vision at the OUC as you describe and a group of people willing to implement this in the past. Maybe one of the dive 'oldies' on the board who saw the originals and not reruns of Sea Hunt can tell us how the OUC was seen by divers in 60s and 70s. People don't drift away from organizations, agencies, or LDSs for no good reason. When a critical mass of high quality people with good ideas congregrate good things happen. When the leaders leave things fall apart.

Maybe you should look at what the OUC did do right and why they failed and go from there. My first request in any new voluntary organization would be no inhouse air testing even if the $$ are needed.

Unfortunately I would tend to agree with Marvintpa here. Don't want to be a pessimist but you know what is the defintion of a pessimist?

A. An optimist with experience :D

[pufferfish]

From the OUC info pamphlet

"The OUC representing Scuba divers in Ontario.
The OUC is the largest organization representing scuba divers in Ontario. We include sport divers, scuba instructors, dive retailers and charter boat operators across the province. We are committed to promoting safe diving, environmental awareness, continuing education and self-governance."

Dale sounds like a great vision statement. I'd say a post-mortem needs to be done before going forward and trying to reinvent the wheel.

[mglasspo]

Well, I can say that I was unaware until a few days ago about this. It should be advertised you need to get a QC license to dive in Quebec. Because of that, I'm staying away. I'm not paying for another card to put in my wallet, it gives me nothing extra, no extra training, no extra safety factor. It's not like a DAN membership where you get something out of it. It's garbage.

*rant finished Mike can continue talking normally*

This is obviously a good idea gone astray. I agree that a BBB for diving is a good thing to have, in fact, I think we already have it. Doesn't both PADI and NAUI have facility ratings?

[divebuddydale]

mglasspo once bubbled...

This is obviously a good idea gone astray. I agree that a BBB for diving is a good thing to have, in fact, I think we already have it. Doesn't both PADI and NAUI have facility ratings?

Yes I believe they do, however their standards vary between PADI , NAUI, ACUC, SSI, etc.. I think their standards are a good start, but we they are only a start.. more could be done to assure quality.

Dale

[mglasspo]

Hey Dale,

There already is a quality standards organization that works across the board for almost ALL industries, it's called ASQ ISO 9000:2000 it's a standard that measures the quality of an organization.

Perhaps divers should start asking their dive stores to become certified through them.

Just a thought.

[divebuddydale]

ISO 9000, etc are excellent ideas, however I have been working for companies that have been going through their certifications in ISO 9000, etc and it takes a real long time, and alot of manhours. I don't think most stores have the resources. But it is a great idea.

Dale

[JimC]

I think ISO and BBB are both rat holes.

Both take your money and give you the secret handshake.


Have any of you every called the BBB and made a complaint.. about a company thats a member?

Like talking to the wall. :banging:

[HappyDiversDen]

What, I wonder, is wrong with continuing to follow our professional standards?

We teach SSI, PADI and TDI, and between the three, training and safety procedures are mirrored.

Why?

International training standards are a complilation of global experience, not of locally layered regulation drafted by backroom 'crats which can serve (however innocently) to supercede established teaching standards.

Consider that each Instructor, each Charter Operator, each LDS and yes, each diver, should operate as the "governing body" on each dive.

Underwater it's up to us, not the governing body, to prevent or react to a situation. Write all the reg's you want, it happens underwater, not in the legislative chamber.

The real answer?

Continuing education. Don't stop training ... and that's not a sales pitch, it's a reality check.

... my 2 cents worth.

Safe Diving, y'all.

[SneakyB'tard]

I think the main idea was a body of non bias consultants that have experience in developing and implementing generic and specialized industry standards.

There is too much variance in the interpretation of standards among operators within the dive industry. A good example of this is the need for air quality testing - some stores do it and others do not.

An organization put forth to assist in the interpretation of standards will improve the overall operation and delivery of services to the customers. After all the customers are the ones that keep this industry strong and viable.

This thread is supported by customers, the people that spend the money at the shops, if we are asking for a regulatory body to ensure high quality of safety and services....members of the industry had better tune in.