If you are interested pm me or email me at scubaschools@hotmail.com
TDI NITROX DIVER
On this course you will learn how to dive safely using various Nitrox mixtures and how to analyse the oxygen percentage in the mixture, from 21% to 40% Oxygen. You will be restricted to a maximum depth of 130 ft. Upon successful completion of this course you will be issued with TDI Nitrox Diver certification. Included within the cost of the course is a manual and certification card as well as use of an Oxygen analyser and Oxygen.
TDI ADVANCED NITROX DIVER
This course is designed to train you to safely use EAN 21 through to 100% Oxygen for optimal mixes to a depth of 150 ft. where you are not required to carry out staged decompression. You will be required to carry out four certification dives using Nitrox on all.
TDI DECOMPRESSION PROCEDURES
This course examines the theory, methods and procedures of planned stage decompression diving. You will learn how to plan and conduct a standard staged decompression dive to a maximum depth of 150 ft.The most common equipment requirements, gear setups, decompression techniques and decompression mixtures (including oxygen and Nitrox) are presented. The course involves 4 dives where you will properly execute the planed dives within all pre-determined limits. On completion of the course you will be able to engage in decompression diving activities utilising air, Nitrox or oxygen.
TDI ENTRY LEVEL TRIMIX DIVER
The Entry Level Trimix course provides the training required to competently and safely utilise breathing gases containing helium for dives that require staged decompression, utilising Nitrox and / or oxygen mixtures during decompression to a maximum depth of 200ft. There will be four dives with two of the dives over 40 meters. The minimum pre-requisite for the Entry Level Trimix course is certification as an Advanced nitrox diver and Decompression Precedures.
TDI ADVANCED TRIMIX DIVER
The Advanced Trimix course provides the training required to competently and safely utilise breathing gases containing helium for dives that require staged decompression, utilising Nitrox and / or oxygen mixtures during decompression to a maximum depth of 300 ft.There will be four dives with two of the dives over 55 meters. The minimum pre-requisite for the Advanced Trimix course is certification as an Entry Level Trimix diver
Braunbehrens
June 24th, 2003, 01:18 AM
AquaTec once bubbled...
I am offering TDI Courses in the following areas
TDI DECOMPRESSION PROCEDURES
This course examines the theory, methods and procedures of planned stage decompression diving. You will learn how to plan and conduct a standard staged decompression dive to a maximum depth of 150 ft.The most common equipment requirements, gear setups, decompression techniques and decompression mixtures (including oxygen and Nitrox) are presented. The course involves 4 dives where you will properly execute the planed dives within all pre-determined limits. On completion of the course you will be able to engage in decompression diving activities utilising air, Nitrox or oxygen.
So you are going to teach people to dive air (or worse nitrox) to 150 fsw? Do you feel that this is a safe depth for this gas? I would be extremely concerned about narcosis, and oxygen toxicity at this depth and with these gasses.
IMO this is unsafe. Diving below about 100 fsw (maybe 120 if you are pushing it) requires trimix.
Pez de Diablo
June 24th, 2003, 01:29 AM
Braunbehrens once bubbled...
So you are going to teach people to dive air (or worse nitrox) to 150 fsw? Do you feel that this is a safe depth for this gas? I would be extremely concerned about narcosis, and oxygen toxicity at this depth and with these gasses.
IMO this is unsafe. Diving below about 100 fsw (maybe 120 if you are pushing it) requires trimix.
Great then don't do it!
Edit [removed rant about someone who never has anything nice to say]
I am sure that he will be teaching the effects of nitrogen at depth and try to lead the well informed student to further training.
Aqua Tec, I hope your courses fill up. Maybe one day I will beable to do some training with you.
Phoenix
June 24th, 2003, 03:07 AM
150fsw is fine for air, infact on extended range you will push down to 180-190fsw, nitrox should be fine at 150 providing its not too O2 rich, im not sure the exact limits yet for the various mixes, but I know air gets toxic at about 68 meters (apprx 210fsw)
cornfed
June 24th, 2003, 08:55 AM
Phoenix once bubbled...
150fsw is fine for air, infact on extended range you will push down to 180-190fsw, nitrox should be fine at 150 providing its not too O2 rich, im not sure the exact limits yet for the various mixes, but I know air gets toxic at about 68 meters (apprx 210fsw)
At that depth your pp02 is around 1.6. This isn't a good working level and I assume you're sightseeing not resting at deco.
Cornfed
MarcHall
June 24th, 2003, 11:44 AM
Personally, any time I dive deeper then 100 feet I am on some form of trimix. Depending on the dive its either 21/35 or 30/30.
I regularly dive a local site (1-3 times per week) to 120-130 feet (it's a recreational dive run by a local club). The difference between diving it on mix versus diving it on air is remarkable.
Marc Hall
www.enjoythedive.com
Diversauras
June 24th, 2003, 11:52 AM
Looks like you can't please everyone, huh Aqua Tec?
AquaTec
June 24th, 2003, 01:51 PM
Braubehrens. there are many different belief on the subject with regards to diving deeper than 100 feet using something other than trimix, you have the right to beleive what ever you want.
As for oxygen toxicity i beleive that the working part of the dive should not use a Po2 hight than 1.4 and the deco part of the dive should not go higher than 1.6 Po2. since I am not bound to "standard" mixes it is possible to use nitrox to dive to 150 feet safely.
the advantage of taking a course from me is that I will teach you all about this which will include the effects of nitrogen and oxygen on our body as we dive to depths.
I do advocate the use of Trimix and I advocate using an END of 100 feet.
however i do not demand it I beleive in the free spirit and free will of indaviduals. I will provide them the most current information available combine with my own personal experiences which will give each student the information necessary to make their own descision on the type of diving they would like to do.
also keep in mind that the depth is stated as a maximum depth allowed durring the course, and the training provided is designed to teach you to dive safely to those depth and no deeper. the course is also not designed to force students to go to those depths.
if you have further questions feel free to ask again, or sign up for one of my courses and i can go into any of these subjects in great detail which will make it much clearer for you
Braunbehrens once bubbled...
So you are going to teach people to dive air (or worse nitrox) to 150 fsw? Do you feel that this is a safe depth for this gas? I would be extremely concerned about narcosis, and oxygen toxicity at this depth and with these gasses.
IMO this is unsafe. Diving below about 100 fsw (maybe 120 if you are pushing it) requires trimix.
roakey
June 24th, 2003, 02:59 PM
AquaTec once bubbled...
...I beleive in the free spirit and free will of indaviduals. I will provide them the most current information available combine with my own personal experiences which will give each student the information necessary to make their own descision on the type of diving they would like to do.
So can I safely assume that you feel that deep air is an OK thing to do, since you're teaching it? I would hope you're principled enough that if you truly thought it was a bad thing to do, no matter how "free spirited" the student was, you wouldn't go against your own principles just to make a buck. But what do I know, maybe you would.
But, for the moment, assuming that you feel deep air is OK, please defend the practice without resorting to the same flawed reasoning the drunk driver trots out after having an accident, such as:
"You build up a tolerance to it"
"You can manage it"
"It doesn't affect me"
Point being, you can make many, many dives narked out of your gourd, and as long as nothing goes wrong, you'll be just fine. That doesn't make it safe. It's when the SHtF that you (pardon me, your "free spirited" student) will find out just how incapacitated they are. Fortunately for you, the causality chain will probably be tenuous enough that the next of kin will leave you alone...
Roak
Ps. Sorry, but I feel there's more than enough data on the table showing that deep air is dangerous AND tools are available to mitigate the risk. Given these two points, I would have hoped that all responsible instructors would have led by example and stopped teaching. and diving deep air by now.
AquaTec
June 27th, 2003, 01:10 AM
I am happy to discuss deep air with you in a civil manner.
first lets establish whats deep you stated [or someone did] that 100 feet is deep on air and that lower than that there should be helium in the mix.
I think 100 feet is not deep on air, if 100 feet is your depth. 130 is not deep but may be the limit for some, 150 is generaly the threshold for most divers, if that is your depth.
as for equivalent air depths i think 100 - 130 feet should be the standard, however with every standard there are exceptions.
I never teach outside my principles, yet i do reconize that there are different personalities out there, and i adapt to them to a limit. for instance one of my principles is that i do not believe in single bladder diving on dives that there is not a bottom, say a deep wall dive, but there are those that i teach who believe that a single bladder [with dry suit] is just fine, I educate them the best i can as to why i feel that a dual bladder is better, but i let them make their own final decision as long as i feel they have all the fact.
If a guy comes to me and says he wants to learn to dive to 200 300 or what ever feet and he is willing to pay me a whole bunch of money to show him the way, i have principles against that. if teaching was about the money i would be doing something that actualy paid good money.
I do believe that when you are narced you are narced, I know a very active scuba instructor that gets narced at 80 feet, narced out of her gord. would you find it acceptable for her to dive up to 100 feet because it is considered NOT deep air. f**k no, she should dive to her comfort zone, where ever that is.
you would have us believe that she should be capable of diving to 100 feet because it is not deep, the same could be said for those who are not narced at 100 feet maybe they could dive a little bit deeper.
BigJetDriver
June 27th, 2003, 05:20 AM
AquaTec once bubbled...
first lets establish whats deep you stated [or someone did] that 100 feet is deep on air and that lower than that there should be helium in the mix.
I do believe that when you are narced you are narced. I know a very active scuba instructor that gets narced at 80 feet; narced out of her gourd. Would you find it acceptable for her to dive up to 100 feet because it is considered NOT deep air? F**k no, she should dive to her comfort zone, where ever that is.
You would have us believe that she should be capable of diving to 100 feet because it is not deep, the same could be said for those who are not narced at 100 feet maybe they could dive a little bit deeper. [SIZE=3][FONT=times new roman][COLOR=darkblue]
The subject of "Deep Air" is a contentious one. There are probably as many views on the subject as there are instructors. For myself, I am not a fan of "Deep Air", but then, from reading AquaTec's posts, he is not advocating its use to the exclusion of other "mixed" gases, which is quite a reasonable approach!;)
cornfed
June 27th, 2003, 07:08 PM
AquaTec once bubbled...
I
I think 100 feet is not deep on air, if 100 feet is your depth. 130 is not deep but may be the limit for some, 150 is generaly the threshold for most divers, if that is your depth.
as for equivalent air depths i think 100 - 130 feet should be the standard, however with every standard there are exceptions.
Equivalent air depth or equivalent narcotic depth?
I was under the impression that the first lets you use your trusty old air tables and the other tells you how narced you are.
Cornfed
gjmmotors
June 29th, 2003, 12:37 AM
the use of 28% to 21% (1.6ppo2) should be fine for that depth. However i was under the impression that tdi changed there depth restrictions this year, my adv nitrox class was a max of 130ffw.
The use of mix on relatively shallow dives (130fsw) would be a luxury that i cannot afford. about 60 of my dives this year have been to about 130 fsw, mix would add up if i wasnt mixing it myself.
-greg
sheck33
June 29th, 2003, 12:48 AM
i think it is simple, deep air is something you get away with until the time you dont. I think a lot of divers are well aware of the potential problems diving deep air. If they still choose to do it that is their problem isnt it. I have done it and i am glad i got away with it, i do not dive deep on air anymore.
choices choices.......some choices are just better than others
Braunbehrens
June 29th, 2003, 02:13 AM
AquaTec once bubbled...
I am happy to discuss deep air with you in a civil manner.
first lets establish whats deep you stated [or someone did] that 100 feet is deep on air and that lower than that there should be helium in the mix.
I think 100 feet is not deep on air, if 100 feet is your depth. 130 is not deep but may be the limit for some, 150 is generaly the threshold for most divers, if that is your depth.
as for equivalent air depths i think 100 - 130 feet should be the standard, however with every standard there are exceptions.
SNIP
I do believe that when you are narced you are narced, I know a very active scuba instructor that gets narced at 80 feet, narced out of her gord. would you find it acceptable for her to dive up to 100 feet because it is considered NOT deep air. f**k no, she should dive to her comfort zone, where ever that is.
you would have us believe that she should be capable of diving to 100 feet because it is not deep, the same could be said for those who are not narced at 100 feet maybe they could dive a little bit deeper.
AT, I am glad that you want to keep the discussion civil, after all we are only talking about diving. Maybe we can all learn something from this discussion.
You say that different people are narce'd at different depths. I am glad you brought this up, because I also know an instructor who gets narced very shallow. You are right, different people have different threasholds.
However, that is not where the story ends. The SAME person may be narced more or less on different days even though the depth is the same. What's worse, narcosis may manifest itself in different ways. Some days you may FEEL narced out of your gourd, as you say, on other days you may feel very comfortable and safe. BOTH are signs of narcosis.
My point is simply that narcosis is treacherous, and may not be obvious. 100 ft should be the maximum, IMO.
There is clear evidence that EVERYBODY is narced at 60 fsw.
I hope I was not rude in any way, I just wanted to mention these facts about narcosis. In light of them, I think any dive below 100 fsw is better done on trimix.
The problem with using nitrox, btw, is that oxygen narcosis is even harder to notice, and then there is the added problem of a high working PO2.
I am looking forward to your thoughts on this.
AquaTec
June 30th, 2003, 05:39 PM
We are in agreement that everyone is narced, and every time you are narced the effects could be different, and at different depths. one time it may be pleasant and uphoric the next it may be panic.
it could happen at 60 feet or 200 feet on any given day.
this we are both in agreement with.
I will also agree that trimix is better than air on a dive where narcosis is a factor.
where we probably differ is where that depth is, and i may sound somewhat contradictory on this....for me the depth may be deeper than for others. I teach that deep air is anything deeper than 100 feet, and beyond 100 feet you will definetly feel the effects of narcosis.
i would not enforce the use of trimix at depth 100 and 200 feet i would insted explain the risks, the effects, and the conciquences of deep air diving. as i do believe that we are not all cut from the same cookie cutter, i believe that each diver makes their own decision on the type of dives they whish to do, the type of gear they wish to use, etc. i only educate them on the benifits of deficets of the different methods and ideas out there.
for me personally i will happily plan a dive on air and if i need to back off on the depth because the effects are different today than yesterday then i am happy to do that, my plan can change that way without regret or danger.
I also believe that there is a huge difference in people who dive a lot and have been diving for a while say 100 dives a year for many years, vs a person who has just recently strated diving and whants to start doing some deep diving right away because they just whent out and bought that new back plate and wings
padiscubapro
June 30th, 2003, 06:01 PM
Braunbehrens once bubbled...
There is clear evidence that EVERYBODY is narced at 60 fsw.
.
All the studies I have seen reports of, say SOME (most do not to any real repeatable measurable degree) experience it that shallow, all the studies I have seeen show by 3.2 ATA of PN2 (100 fsw for an air dive) every individual shows measureable and fairly repeatable signs of narcosis.
ALso the problems with some studies doing the same skills the people tended to better over time.. Many people attribute this (incorrectly) to getting aclimated to the narcosis and learning to deal with it rather than the individual learning the skill to a point where its automatic..
Tasks requiring reasoning, generally no improvement was shown..
as a side note, To my knowledge there have been no studies I can verify that altering the PN2 by raising oxygen content had any effect on narcosis..
MikeFerrara
July 1st, 2003, 08:13 AM
This is always a fun argument. As far as I know you're narced as soon as ambient presure increases. I wonder if we're narced at the surface. I've thought of having my son breath trimix while in school. LOL
The question is at what depth is it a problem? How much impairment can be tolerated? It seems to me you need to take the starting point into account. A simple well planned dive will require less thinking on your feet. A more skilled diver will be able to handle more problems automatically without the need for much thought. I've seen divers that I think had narcosis problems at 60 or 80 ft.
While I'm not in favor of deep diving on air, I don't see anything magical about 100 ft either.
All else being equal less N2 is better, but all is not equal.
I'm interested to see where these recreational trimix classes go. Around here you can't get trimix no matter how much money you have. If you can find some it'll cost you. In the 3 1/2 years I've had my shop I haven't sold a single tank of trimix except to some blending students who were mixing there own for their own trimix class.
Like it or not, diving below 100 ft without He isn't going away anytime soon.
padiscubapro
July 1st, 2003, 10:58 AM
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
This is always a fun argument. As far as I know you're narced as soon as ambient presure increases. I wonder if we're narced at the surface. I've thought of having my son breath trimix while in school. LOL
The question is at what depth is it a problem? How much impairment can be tolerated? It seems to me you need to take the starting point into account. A simple well planned dive will require less thinking on your feet. A more skilled diver will be able to handle more problems automatically without the need for much thought. I've seen divers that I think had narcosis problems at 60 or 80 ft.
While I'm not in favor of deep diving on air, I don't see anything magical about 100 ft either.
All else being equal less N2 is better, but all is not equal.
I'm interested to see where these recreational trimix classes go. Around here you can't get trimix no matter how much money you have. If you can find some it'll cost you. In the 3 1/2 years I've had my shop I haven't sold a single tank of trimix except to some blending students who were mixing there own for their own trimix class.
Like it or not, diving below 100 ft without He isn't going away anytime soon.
Mike,
I wasn't implying 100fsw was a magical number just by this point it can be consistently measured in all individuals.. The level of narcosis will differ but it is detectable.. I don't believe an END of 130/40m is a problem either, I think its a reasonable limit for most people and dives.
Personally, while I'm at home and on my CCR all dives I do have He in it.. I bank 21/40 (I hate that nomenclature!) and my RB uses such little gas there is no reason not to use it.., even doing 60m/200 fsw dives I use under 4 cuft (probably closer to half of that on most dives) of diluent gas per dive.
When I travel thats another story..
I don't mind doing non He dives to 50m(and when necessary and conditions and support are available I will push it deeper), but I definately prefer the He in the mix..
Doppler
July 1st, 2003, 11:46 AM
It will be interesting to see what changes to this new ethic may be made as the cost of helium rises over time. For many years, my gas supplier was charging about $68 Canadian for a 8.5 cubic meter cylinder of He. The basic market rules of supply and demand have begun to put upwards pressure on that price. Not sure what shops are charging for "recreational mix fills" but it's going to be interesting to see what changes are made to "dive goals" as the price of a fill to dive to, say 115 fsw, climbs up to the cost of the charter to get there.
Anyone here ski? Do you tackle black diamonds with or without a helmet... do you wear a helmet on a blue or a green on your favorite hill?
Can't think of it in any other terms... except I see a lot of people who should be diving the "bunny hill" trying to dive the "couloirs"
MikeFerrara
July 1st, 2003, 11:47 AM
padiscubapro once bubbled...
Mike,
I wasn't implying 100fsw was a magical number just by this point it can be consistently measured in all individuals..
I only used that number because it seems to be a popular recommendation these days, not because of anything you wrote.
Doppler
July 1st, 2003, 11:57 AM
I think comparing driving drunk with a dive to 132 feet -- or 150 feet -- without helium is a mistake.
It trivializes drunk driving. And, gives an incomplete picture of the vagaries of gas narcosis.
Drunk driving is against the law and carries the possibility of serious fines and imprisonment.
Diving with a great pN2 than 3.1 ata may or may not be wise or desirable; however, it does not carry the sanction of the criminal code.
I think we need another analogy.
Doppler
salty
July 1st, 2003, 12:21 PM
Any one want to go out tonight drinking??
I usaly get loaded than drive around town looking for street races to join in on. my cars fast but dont worry if I dont feel right I wont race. Also dont worry because I have been drinking and driving for years now and I know my limits, pluse Ive never killed any one ....at least I dont think I have?
Yea that makes real sense!!:rolleyes:
sheck33
July 1st, 2003, 12:34 PM
salty once bubbled...
Any one want to go out tonight drinking??
I usaly get loaded than drive around town looking for street races to join in on. my cars fast but dont worry if I dont feel right I wont race. Also dont worry because I have been drinking and driving for years now and I know my limits, pluse Ive never killed any one ....at least I dont think I have?
Yea that makes real sense!!:rolleyes:
heyyyy that sounds like what i do :D I ussually pop some pills with the wodka before racing. I might have run over some pets but i was too far gone to remember....:out:
hmmm that sounds like deep air diving doesnt it......like i went deep but i really dont remember much...:D
MikeFerrara
July 1st, 2003, 12:54 PM
salty once bubbled...
Any one want to go out tonight drinking??
I usaly get loaded than drive around town looking for street races to join in on. my cars fast but dont worry if I dont feel right I wont race. Also dont worry because I have been drinking and driving for years now and I know my limits, pluse Ive never killed any one ....at least I dont think I have?
Yea that makes real sense!!:rolleyes:
Hey ever notice that the law takes drunk driving far more serious than it takes dangerous sobor driving? It's only a big deal to drive bad if you're drunk. Idiots who always drive bad are more politically correct than drunk drivers wether they drive good or bad.
Wanna bet money that after a six pack that, while I might not be as good as usual, I can still out perform a significant percentage of drivers on the road in any test you want to administer?
Big-t-2538
July 1st, 2003, 12:57 PM
I'm with mike in the test group.....now when do we start....
Braunbehrens
July 1st, 2003, 01:03 PM
Hey Mike, you say there is no He available in your area? Don't you guys have any gas suppliers out there? What do the welders do?
Setting up a He fill station isn't that big of a deal, especially if you get your tanks topped at a dive store. Some local guys were doing that for a while.
MikeFerrara
July 1st, 2003, 01:05 PM
Big-t-2538 once bubbled...
I'm with mike in the test group.....now when do we start....
Hey maybe we can find a liquor store that'll sponsor our tests!
padiscubapro
July 1st, 2003, 01:14 PM
Braunbehrens once bubbled...
Hey Mike, you say there is no He available in your area? Don't you guys have any gas suppliers out there? What do the welders do?
Setting up a He fill station isn't that big of a deal, especially if you get your tanks topped at a dive store. Some local guys were doing that for a while.
A diver getting his on welding helium isn't that big a deal.. getting USP graded helium in many areas is a bigger deal.. if you are a store thats a must. At my station, its policy to analyze all tanks that are marked for other mixtures (also all doubles) prior to filling, if they have a gas other than whats listed on the analysis tag its dumped (if you asked for an air top off thats what you would get), so an Air top off wouldn't fly.. In the end if an accident were to happen it would be the filler that would be in trouble.. if its not analyzed shame on them..
MikeFerrara
July 1st, 2003, 01:54 PM
Braunbehrens once bubbled...
Hey Mike, you say there is no He available in your area? Don't you guys have any gas suppliers out there? What do the welders do?
Setting up a He fill station isn't that big of a deal, especially if you get your tanks topped at a dive store. Some local guys were doing that for a while.
Certainly we have Helium. I pay 80$ for a T? (337 cu ft). I doubt most of the other local shops would top off home brew. I will, but I don't think most will.
No doubt most technical divers have their own fill stations or at least a buddy does. When I first started it was a major deal just to get deco gas for a Lake Michigan dive. If you wanted to get your own tanks filled it would require an extra day hanging around Chicago. Once I had a charter set me up with some 50% for $25 a bottle.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguiong in favor of diving narced but I see trimix being used by recreational divers for 100 ft dives a long way off for those who don't mix their own.
BTW, does 40 fathom still have the sign that says that if they top your mix that they charge you for a mix fill?
Hey...we were diving vortex a while back and we were running low on O2. We asked if they had any and they said they had powdered stuff that you just add water too. LOL. Imagine what they would have said if I asked for helium.
