Looking for advice for 1st bp/wings purchase

[jamiei]

Well, I just sold my scubapro bcd/air2 and I'm about to purchase my first bp/wings and I'm not sure what's best. I don't want to spend a whole lot of money if I can help it and I want the flexibility to be able to use a single Al 80 as well as either double LP 72's or double al 80's with the same wing. Is this possible or will single tank on a doubles wing (or vise/versa) just not work well? I'm totally ignorant when it comes to bp/wings setups so any advice is welcome. I've looked at the models that FredT sells and am leaning towards an aluminum one with something like a 36lb wing.

I'm 6'2", 175 lbs and will usually be using a single al 80 in freshwater with a 6-7mm wetsuit with trips to florida as well. I want something that I can use either with a thick wetsuit or with just a bathing suit in the keys. I usually use 12 lbs of lead on my waist in freshwater with a full 6 or 7mm suit and al80 and 6 lbs in saltwater with the same setup and no wetsuit. I don't really mind wearing a little extra weight on my weightbelt. I was thinking of using the alum FredT bp with a heavy single tank adapter to get a little weight off my belt possibly. Like I said, any help is greatly appreciated... I need to get one soon so I can go diving again... I'm shipping my bcd off in a few days... HELP!!!.

[Wendy]

I had started out using a dive rite trek wing (without bungees) for single tank and it was pretty bad and I have the photos to back that up. Someone said I looked like an angel with my wings flapping in the current. I got that hot dog bun affect on my single tank, however that wing is great with my double lp 85's and when I use double al80's. I went out and bout the 27# pioneer wing for use with my single tank and I couldn't be happier with it. So to answer your question, yes you can use one wing for both, but in my opinion its not the best way to go.

[jamiei]

what about the wings with bellows(sp?). Would that make any difference? I definately don't want a lot of drag.

[kramynot2000]

I wasn't sure that I'd like the BP/Wing setup so I took the Wing off my Ranger BC and put it on an aluminum BP that I got from Gary Hoadly on ebay. I've liked it so much I just haven't got around to getting a new wing. It has a 44lb lift, I think, that is supposed to be good for a single or small doubles... at least that's what they say.

The wing has two little flaps with buckles on each side that are designed to keep the wing from wrapping around a single tank. I used some small webbing to attach these flaps to the waist belt of my BP harness so that there was no restriction of the wing fully inflating, but when only partially inflated, it didn't flap around. So far I"ve experienced no air trapping, imbalance, etc. I THINK there is a wing out there (deep outdoors? abyss?) that also has this feature.

I currently dive with either an HP80 or AL80. I'll be doubling up the HP80's soon though. From what I"ve read on this board, a 45lb wing is perfect for these doubles.

Tony

[deepstops]

jamiei once bubbled...
what about the wings with bellows(sp?). Would that make any difference? I definately don't want a lot of drag.

IMO, There is no equal to the wings Halcyon currently sells. But,,,, Oxycheq, Dive Rite, and OMS are coming out with Halcyon clones within the next month or so. I particularly like what I see on the OxyCheq wings. Competition is a good thing.

[Wendy]

I forgot about the air trapping when I was using the larger wing with the single tank, ugh....it took an act of God just to use the rear dump, but I finally figured out there was a trick to it.

Since you are located in GA why don't you just drive down to cave country. Rent your self a bp/wing set up with the size wing you are thinking about getting and go over to Ginnie Springs and try it out. That way you won't end up with something that sounded like a good idea, but sucked in the water. Extreme Exposure rents gear and I think that Ginnie does also.

Oh and maybe some divers in the area that are on the board will let you try out their set ups as well.

[LVX]

I have been using the Halcyon Stainless steel backplate with either the pioneer (single) or explorer (doubles) for the past couple of years and I could not be happier. Using the same backplate and gear configuration makes it very easy to switch between rig setups and have everything in the same place.

Anyway, just my opinion.

LVX

[Zerogravity]

I use Halcyon 27lb wing with single tanks + Aluminum BP/Harness. It has just the right amount of lift and is very streamlined. For Dbl al 80's you could probably get away with Dive Rites Rec wing..40# of lift, or Deep Outdoors 40# wing. Both can be used with singles or doubles as long as you aren't planning on carrying stages with your doubles.

[scubajim1]

I would definitely get he Halcyon harness and back plate setup. The size of the wings depends on the size of your tanks and your weight.

[jamiei]

like I said in my orig post, I'll only be using either steel lp 72s or alum 80's for a doubles setup on the rare occassion that I would use doubles in the near future. I don't see myself doing any very deep/extensive decompression dives for a long time anyway either so I won't be using anything other than the doubles themselves. I'm leaning more towards a FredT backplate because I've heard a lot of good things about them and they are a bit cheaper.

Does anybody have a used Halcyon wing they'ld like to sell??? I think I might settle for the pioneer 27# for now unless I can find a pioneer and explorer at good prices. Thanks for all the info/comments so far guys.

[ElectricZombie]

jamiei,


You really need two wings, one for singles and one for doubles. If you try to use a wing intended for doubles with a single tank, you will have a lot of air trapping/drag problems. Trust me, I've tried this and it does not work. It may cost a bit more to have two wings but, the expense is worth the results.

I ended up getting a 27lbs Halcyon Pioneer Package. When diving singles, I aways use AL80s so, this is plenty of lift for me. I decided to get the 6lb SS BP so I don't have to wear a weightbelt. I'm extremely happy with it and cannot recommend it highly enough. I priced everything out and it was cheaper and simpler to simply buy a complete Halcyon setup. I think it was $505.00.

For doubles I have a separate wing. (Soon to be replaced with a Halcyon Explorer) So, I have two setups that can manage all the diving I want to do.

As for what type of wing to get, I would go with Halcyon. These things are super tough and designed correctly. You don't have to modify them in any way to make them work; they are ready to go right out of the box. Halcyon wings are really the best IMHO. They also have a good warranty should anything go wrong.

You can always get a Pioneer setup now and just add a doubles wing later on. This is what I would do if I were you.

[JohnF]

How much doubles diving will you really do, and in what kind of water? I started with a Rec wing with a single AL80 but soon found it to be all the things the others have said. Not impossible, but hardly perfect for singles diving. I'm not sure if it will work perfectly with heavy steel doubles.

I'm heavier than you so may be floatier, and need more weight, but my 27# Halcyon is just a little shy on lift for drysuit diving (with the warm undies) or with the 7mm wetsuit. It's perfect in warm water in my 3mm.

If you're determined to compromise though, the Dive Rite Rec wing isn't terrible by any stretch of the imagination. Oxycheq has a brand new wing coming out that should give the Rec wing a run for it's money. My advice though, is to look for a 36# Halcyon wing for cold and warm water singles diving, and a good double wing for the dubs.

Also check out the weighted STA's that Scott Koplin makes and now sells thru Oxycheq. Very cool. With an SS STA and the weighted STA you have about 12# right over your spine. I like it a lot.

JF

[jamiei]

I think I'm gonna get a FredT alum backplate??? (might change my mind now that I think about it) I like the idea of having ditchable weight. I also plan on using his heavy single tank adapter just to add a little weight back there. I think the Pioneer 27# wing will be enough lift for me since I don't ever use more than 12 lbs (with my bc and 7mm wetsuit) and I think I can get by with less than that eventually.

I was looking at the 27 lb Pioneer wings and see that they have an integrated sta so that avoids the heavy sta from fredt that I had planned on getting with the aluminum bp from him. Should I go with the heavy bp from fredt (9 lbs neg)? Will that be too much for saltwater diving with no wetsuit? I'm now having trouble deciding between the 9lb and 6lb bp... I think the 27lb pioneer is perfect for me for now and if I go ahead and get the SST bp, that will help if I use a doubles wing in the future. Anybody have any suggestions on where to buy the pioneer since I'm here in GA? Will the Halcyon Thanks again guys and keep the advice coming...

[Wendy]

You can still use a STA with the 27# wing even though it has the built in one. I have a dive rite STA that I had used with the bigger wing and I figured, why let it go to waste, so I use it too, just makes the whole rig a little more stable I think.

You can order the wing from Extreme Exposure in Florida and you like 30 days to try it and return it if you don't like it.

[jamiei]

Anybody have pioneer 27lb wings in stock??? I've called several different places and no one seems to have any of these in stock...

[DIR Tec Diver]

Call Dean Marshall at Brownies Southport in Ft. Lauderdale Florida. He has a ton in stock. In fact they have everything you could possible want. Dean is also a GUE Fundamentals instructor so he can help you with any details or questions.

You won't regret the Halcyon, it's a dream baby...

[jamiei]

I believe I called Brownies as well and the 27lb wing wasn't in at that time. It was very disconcerting to me that several of the reps from dealers in Florida didn't seem to have a clue... One guy told me they didn't carry Pioneer 27lb wings... That was in high springs... I said, you're a Halcyon dealer, but you don't carry the Pioneer 27lb wing? His reply was to the effect... oh, I don't know that much about all that tech/cave diving stuff. I didn't know that was a Halcyon wing... so and so is the guy that does that here and he's not around.

One other thing thats really bothering me is that I didn't know that these wings don't have an interior bladder like any good bc does. I think a wing, especially something that is made for more technical diving, should have something to protect the air bladder from abrasion/cuts/punctures. From just looking at these wings one could easily assume that the exterior is just a protective cover and that there is a inner, replaceable/repairable rubber bladder. From what I've seen on the board, all you get with a Halcyon wing is the outer, weaved? cover as the air holding body. I don't see the logic there. Is it to cut costs? It obviously is a failure point. I've never really heard of anyone with a bc that isn't almost dry rotted from age having any of the problems that I've heard of basically new Halcyon wings on here. If Halcyon's warranty will cover it, fine... I bet you anything they don't replace every one this happens to. If they did, you would have a recall on your hands. Yes, some of these problems are due to sharp edges on the bp, which seems like in every instance was a Halcyon bp.

A lot of guys/gals on here like to bash manufacturers and thats not what I'm doing because I do like what Halcyon has to offer, but the wing issue concerns me. What concerns me isn't sinking like a rock cause the bc lost its air, its the hassle of having it replaced or even having to buy another wing myself. What does this do to the resale value of their wings???? After hearing all this, I wouldn't dare buy a used one unless I got a killer deal on it cause if you buy it used and it goes out on you... You're stuck with an extra inflator hose and cam straps. It's not that difficult to produce a bc/wing that does what its supposed to and is tough as nails and will endure abuse for quite a few years. You see guys using 20 year old bc jackets quite often and you won't see patches all over the thing either. It's because they have a touch outer shell protecting the inner, rubber bladder. Can anyone give me a good reason why the Halcyon wings don't have a separate inner bladder and outer cover????

[Dryglove]

jamiei once bubbled...
Anybody have pioneer 27lb wings in stock??? I've called several different places and no one seems to have any of these in stock...


http://www.mantaraydive.com/ had one in stock last time i was there. You can also try http://www.mbdc.to/

There has also been someone selling new halcyon gear on ebay lately. It might be worth it to ask him if he has any.

[ElectricZombie]

jamiei once bubbled...

One other thing thats really bothering me is that I didn't know that these wings don't have an interior bladder like any good bc does. I think a wing, especially something that is made for more technical diving, should have something to protect the air bladder from abrasion/cuts/punctures. From just looking at these wings one could easily assume that the exterior is just a protective cover and that there is a inner, replaceable/repairable rubber bladder. From what I've seen on the board, all you get with a Halcyon wing is the outer, weaved? cover as the air holding body. I don't see the logic there. Is it to cut costs? It obviously is a failure point.

The Halcyon wings intended for technical diving DO have have a inner bladder covered by a shell. (40lbs, 55lbs and 70lbs wings)

The single tank wings (27lbs and 36lbs) do not. I don't think it is possible due to the circular shape of the single tank wings. Even using one layer, the Halcyon single tank wing material is extremely tough. I have not had any problems with mine. It's not a failure point, it is simply not needed.

I'm sure you can find a wing with around 30lbs of lift that has an innerbladder/outer cover. However, it will not be the right shape and will probably not function properly.

The Halcyon single tank wings are very strong and well made. Their double tank wings look bulletproof.

[jamiei]

have you read the threads about holes in the 27 and 36lb wings? Some of these were on the first few dives with a new wing. Yes a circular bladder would be harder to fit with an outer shell, but really all you would have to do is sew the shell around the bladder. Maybe I should be saying that Halcyon should finish their bp's better... they do seem well made, but obviously could be made better. Like I said, I am a fan of Halcyon equipment, but I'm not gonna say that anything other than Halcyon "probably won't function properly". Holding air is one of the wings most important functions and a lot of guys on this board have halcyon single tank wings that don't. Thats my point. I'm not sure about the exact construction of the bladder, but the failure point is that anything that pokes that wing is gonna pop a hole in it like a balloon. With a rubber inner, separate bladder it can move and flex independant of the outer shell to help avoid this problem. If some of the other single tank wings that are coming on the market have stronger construction (and we know they'll have the same design/shape), then I may have to go with one of those for a single tank wing.

[Scubaroo]

Jamie,

Get the Halcyon if you don't mind risking the fact it may develop a hole - Halcyon customer service is excellent, and they replaced mine no-questions-asked when it developed a seam leak (they won't pop like a balloon), despite the fact I'd done a chopjob and removed the internal STA and aquasealed the slits.

The new Oxycheq wings look nice, but I don't think they have an internal bladder either.

[jamiei]

obviously it won't lose its air like a balloon, but if the bladder is close to full/under pressure it seems like any sharp object will "pop" a hole.

[JeffG]

jamiei once bubbled...
obviously it won't lose its air like a balloon, but if the bladder is close to full/under pressure it seems like any sharp object will "pop" a hole.
Which can be said for pretty much any BC. The material of the pioneer is pretty tough, the seams are the weak link....but again, this is the same for any BCD.

If you take care of it, it will take care of you:)

[Big-t-2538]

Scubaroo once bubbled...


The new Oxycheq wings look nice, but I don't think they have an internal bladder either.

Have you seen them and touched them yet? I'm really wondering if they are going to have the integrated STA or not.....

[ElectricZombie]

jamiei once bubbled...
Like I said, I am a fan of Halcyon equipment, but I'm not gonna say that anything other than Halcyon "probably won't function properly".

I said that because no other manufacturer is making a circular style single tank wing like the Pioneer. The circular style seems to work better than the "horseshoe" type. I've heard about the OxyCheck wings but, I don't think they are out yet.

[jamiei]

JeffG, have you read the threads about holes in the pioneer wings? You don't see posts like those about every other bc out there. Most bc's, as I said, have an exterior, protective shell and an interior air bladder. I can't remember ever reading any other thread on this board about any other model of bc/wing having so many instances of leaks. I did see several pictures of people having to put a big aquaseal patch on their pioneer though.

Does anyone know the exact composition of the pioneer bladder? Is it rubberized or is it the same tough nylon exterior that most wings have? Is there a rubber coating on the inside or what?

Again, I like Halcyon stuff, but for the price of the pioneer wing, it shouldn't be having the number of problems we're hearing about. From what I have heard, the 36 lb wing is having more trouble with the seams due to the bellows and the 27 lb is just suffering from punctures and abrasion holes. For it to be so tough, seems like it abraids quite easily at bp contact points. I'll hold off as long as I can before I purchase a single wing, be it a halcyon or other brand just to see what happens. I had looked forward to buying a used pioneer wing, but its just not worth the risk. I'll buy new with warranty from a dealer with a good reputation just to be sure they don't say, nope that hole isn't our fault.

EZ,
You can't use it with a bp(without modifying it), but dive rite makes the travel wing... Did the older pioneer wings have this problem or is it limited more to the newer ones and those with the integrated STA? (Not being sarcastic, just simply asking a question here...) Why is it that a circular wing works better with a single tank? Is it simply because it keeps the wing from wrapping around the tank or is it because the air flows better around the wing??? If its simply for keeping the wing from wrapping around the tank, who says that a horseshoe wing couldn't be fitted to where you could physically connect the tips of the wings to prevent this when using a single tank?

[JeffG]

jamiei once bubbled...
JeffG, have you read the threads about holes in the pioneer wings? You don't see posts like those about every other bc out there. <snip>

I saw the threads, but my guess would be that it has more to do with the storage of the Pioneer than the material. (For the Hole type punctures)

Being just a flat bag, it can get stuck in lots of places that the other BC types could never get into.


jamiei once bubbled...
<sniP>Why is it that a circular wing works better with a single tank? Is it simply because it keeps the wing from wrapping around the tank or is it because the air flows better around the wing??? If its simply for keeping the wing from wrapping around the tank, who says that a horseshoe wing couldn't be fitted to where you could physically connect the tips of the wings to prevent this when using a single tank?

Air flow (no air trapping), and the size is right so that it doesn't taco.

[Scubaroo]

Big-t-2538 once bubbled...
Have you seen them and touched them yet? I'm really wondering if they are going to have the integrated STA or not..... Unfortunately people don't see value in sending me free merchandise :(

Scott has said in a thread elsewhere that they will not have an integrated STA - you get to bolt your very own on.

[jamiei]

most of the probs I saw were from holes being worn in the wing from contact with the bp... a halcyon bp at that and about where the wing comes together at the bottom (and most were almost new). It couldn't possibly be the wing or the bp though...

[JeffG]

jamiei once bubbled...
most of the probs I saw were from holes being worn in the wing from contact with the bp... a halcyon bp at that and about where the wing comes together at the bottom (and most were almost new). It couldn't possibly be the wing or the bp though...

Interesting....I will take a look at my wing tomorrow (before I jump into the water) and see if there is any "wear" spots. I could see if the wing was loose and moved around a spot could be worn through, but I would hazard a guess that it would be by the "sta" rods and not on the bladder.

Now I have a DIY bp and not the Halcyon but I can't see what the difference would be.

Jeff

[Scubaroo]

Yeah, that's a Halcyon backplate problem - the Halcyon plates are getting to be known for having a rough finish and sharp bits. I've just replaced my harness webbing because of a sharp slot that cut the webbing, apparently people have been getting plates with sharp edges as well now. My plate doesn't have that problem.

It's a backplate problem, not a wing problem. The Halcyon backplate has bent bottom corners, supposedly to stop the plate from digging into your lower back, but it pushes them against the wing - if they're sharp, it's like having a bare knife blade mounted against your wing.

Fine sandpaper would fix it.

[jamiei]

I would venture to say there its quite possible there's a significant differance between any two different designer's backplates. Every little difference in an angle or bend makes a difference. Apparently, other people's backplates are more suited for use with Pioneer wing's than Halcyon's in many circumstances... I don't see how Halcyon has let things like rough/sharp backplates go when they should know the consequences. Quality control may need some work.

[Diverdman]

In Australia UWB and blackart (changing) recomended you rub all slots down prior to fitting harness as standard.
It only takes an hour and gives great satisfaction.

[jamiei]

when you buy the Halycon system, the harness is already rigged up... and I think all Halcyon plates have a fancy coating on them them that you would mess up by doing that. For their prices, it should be right. FredT's plates are great, are smoothed nicely (if you buy it finished), and are cheaper....

FredT, how bout a single tank wing???

[DocRCH]

Jamei: since you are sorta tall 6'2", you might want to look at Abysmal www.abysmal.com for a bp. They make them in 3 sizes, and the large one may be a better fit to your frame.

Robert:doctor:

[jamiei]

I have a FredT regular size bp (large) and it seems to fit me well. My height comes more from my legs than my torso. That was a slight concern for me since I was borderline on needing a larger plate, but in taking my proportions into consideration I opted for the regular size.


After viewing their site, I see that my standard size FredT bp is 15.5" compared to their !5" standard length. I think for me, neither their 15" or 17" bp would work. What I have is just right. Thanks for the info though.